Interview with Brian Edwards, December 20, 2013

ARD: Hi. This is December 20, 2013. I am Constance Ard, and this is, uh, the interview with Judge Brian C. Edwards for the legacy of African-American judges in Kentucky. We are located at the Jefferson County Circuit Court office in Louisville, Kentucky. Thank you, Judge Edwards, for taking time to meet with us and, and participate in this wonderful project. We're going to start off with something really easy. When and where were you born?

EDWARDS: All right. I was born here in Louisville. I am, of, uh, I guess, the first generation Louisvillian. I was born South 45th Street here in Louisville. Both my parents are from other places. My father grew up in Alabama. My mother grew up in North Carolina.

ARD: All right. Tell me a little bit about growing up here in Louisville.

EDWARDS: Okay. Um, you know, I had a, a, a very, very nice childhood. Um, I grew up--as I, as I stated before, I was born on South 45th Street, so we grew 00:01:00up initially in the west end in Louisville. When I was uh--right before I started school, our family moved on the other end of town, so we moved out in the Harrods Creek area. Um, and, um, so I kind of experienced--we maintained a lot of connections. Both my parents worked at Central High School. We went to church on Greenwood Avenue, you know. So I was--I spent a lot of time still in the west end, and had a lot of friends there. But I was living out on the east end. Uh, and I went to school out there. I went to Dunn [Elementary School], and then I went to Kammerer [Middle School], and then I went to Ballard High School. Um, I was the youngest of three kids, and, uh, so I was a typical little brother. I was always trying to keep up with my older siblings. And, um, uh, I had a great, great childhood. Had a good experience.

ARD: Wonderful. Well, tell me a little bit more about your parents.

EDWARDS: Okay. Both my parents are educators. My father was a band director. 00:02:00Spent most of his career at Central High School. And my mother taught at Central. She initially taught English there. Then she became the librarian. Um, so they were both high school educators, spent most of their career at Central High School. I spent a lot of time over there as a kid, as a kid in the summer, helping my mom unpack books, or hanging out with, uh, my dad's band. And uh, they met up in Bloomington at IU [Indiana University]. Um, they were both in graduate school there. And they met, got married, and moved here to Louisville in 1960. And have been here ever since.

ARD: Very cool. Well, tell me, um, a little bit about values that your parents passed along to you. Kind of taught you as you were growing up.

EDWARDS: Sure, sure. Um, well, as you can imagine with two parents who are both educators, uh, education was, uh, a priority in our house. Uh, uh, you 00:03:00know, they came from kind of different--different vantage points. My mom, um, her father was a college professor in North Carolina. Uh, and uh, her mom, my grandmother, was a college graduate as well, whereas my father was the first in his family to graduate from college. Um, so they--they came from different vantage points, but I guess the commonality they had was that they both really prioritized education. And they, they passed that along to me and my older sisters. Uh, you know, going to school, uh, focusing, doing well. That was--that was, that was not an option. I mean, it was--it was--it was mandatory. So, um, with, with a mother who was a librarian, one thing that I took for granted that, uh, you know, I don't think everyone had, we always had books in the house. There were always things to read. Uh, so, uh, you know, 00:04:00during the summer, um, I remember my mom would take me to the downtown library. Um, and then sometimes, we'd go to the old bookmobile. And so I would, I would read, and I liked reading. So I would read during the summer, uh, which I think, in retrospect, was very important to, to my academic development. I didn't, I didn't lose ground in the summer. I stayed, um, engaged in learning. And, uh, so education was definitely a priority for my parents, uh, in our house. And then, you know, the other values were, were your, your, you know, uh, treat people with respect. Um, you know, always do your best. Keep your word. Those type of things. And, and, you know, my parents were great role models for me. They, they are, let's see, this is 2013. So they are now in their fifty-third year of marriage. So that was a--you don't see that a lot. 00:05:00You don't see that a lot.

ARD: That's very special. Thank you for sharing that. Um, so you went to high school at Ballard, you said. Tell me a little bit about what type of student you were there.

EDWARDS: Um, I was a--I was a decent student. I was not a, uh, great, great student. I didn't--you know, I, I, I had to--had to focus, because my parents wouldn't have it any other way. But I wasn't someone who was, uh, uh, you know--I didn't have that tunnel vision towards academics. Um, I, uh, was in the, I was in the advanced program over at Ballard, so, uh, I had to work hard. We--the time that I was there, it was a, uh, um--I would say it was a pretty competitive school. Um, we had a lot of really, really good students. Um, [cell phone notification] and for me, that was, that was good, because I, I'm kind of oftentimes outwardly motivated. You know, particularly at that age, I 00:06:00think the, uh, motivating--uh, you know, the fact that there were other kids that were doing really well, and I didn't want to get left behind kind of, kind of helped me pick up the pace when I needed to.

ARD: So you're a little bit of a competitor.

EDWARDS: Yeah, yeah. I, I, I think, you know--I'm a lawyer. And uh, I was a trial lawyer, so I think that that, that that competitive nature, uh, has always kind of been there.

ARD: So was there someone that kind of mentored you and helped you decide to go to law school? Or did you know that early on?

EDWARDS: I didn't. You know, um, we had--I think teaching is kind of the, the family business in our household. We didn't have lawyers. We didn't have doctors. Um, you know, my grandfather on my mother's side was a teacher. And my parents were teachers. And my grandmother had taught for a while. So teaching was kind of the family business. But I, you know, I liked--I always was interested in public affairs and politics. My favorite courses in school 00:07:00were history and social studies. Um, I liked, I liked debate. Um, so I, I do remember, I had some teachers in high school who kind of, you know, put the, put the bug in my ear. Said that, you know, "You like politics. You like to debate. You like this type of stuff. Maybe you should think about a career in law." So that, that was kind of my first, um, time thinking about--well, that was probably when I became serious as, as far as thinking about it. I do remember--um, and this, this is a story I've told folks before--when I was in eighth grade. I think it was the summer before my eighth grade year. Uh, my mom wanted to get me in a summer program, and, uh, there was a program through a group. I think it was called "Horizons Unlimited." And, uh, it was a program called "Your Honor, I Object." And you would go, and you would learn a little bit about the court system. Um, at the end of it, you would do a mock trial. 00:08:00And the, uh, facilitator for the program was Judge McAnulty. Uh, so I remember participating in that program. I remember meeting Judge McAnulty. That was a neat experience. Um, and, and that kind of triggered my interest in a--in a career in law, too. Um, and it was--it was, it was fortuitous, too, because I was able to stay in touch with him over the years. And he--once I moved back to Louisville and, and started practicing law, he was on the, he was on the circuit court bench at that time. And actually used this desk. This used to be his desk. Um, and he became kind of a mentor to me.

ARD: Very nice. That's a great tie-in with just kind of the history of the judges overall. Thanks for making that connection. Um, where did you go to, to college?

EDWARDS: I went to Northwestern University up in Evanston, Illinois for college. Um, and, you know, when I was, when I was in high school, a senior in 00:09:00high school, and was thinking about where I wanted to go, um, you know I had two primary things that I was looking at. I wanted to get away. I didn't want to--I didn't want to go to school here in Louisville. Uh, I just wanted to live somewhere else and see something new. Um, and I also wanted to go to a school that had a--a--a relatively decent-sized population of African-American students. That was important to me. Um, we talked a little bit about Ballard. And I enjoyed my experience at Ballard, but there were times when it was somewhat isolating, particularly in the classes that I was in. I mean, I was, uh, in the--in the advanced program at Ballard. I went four years and probably never had another African-American male in class with me. It was--it was me. There was, I think, two African-American women who were in the advanced program at the time, and myself, so, um--which, you know, it's high school. It's the formative years. A lot--a lot of things going on, and, and no one wants to just 00:10:00constantly kind of feel different. And I--and I kind of had that feeling sometimes, uh, that, that, you know, um--and I wanted--I wanted to be around other students, uh, who looked like me and who had--had experienced some of the same things that I had. So uh, Northwestern had a--a nice percentage of, uh, African-American students. It was right outside of Chicago. Um, you know, had a great academic reputation. And uh, they, they made it financially feasible for me to go. They offered me a--a scholarship package, so, uh, that's where I ended up. And one of the best decisions I ever made.

ARD: Very good.

EDWARDS: Had a great time

ARD: So the environment was what you were looking for?

EDWARDS: It was.

ARD: Didn't disappoint?

EDWARDS: It didn't. It didn't. Uh, I had, uh--when I got up there, I just, I immediately felt comfortable, felt at home. Met, um, you know--made great 00:11:00friends who grew up all over the country, um, many of whom I still stay in touch with today. Um, you know, I learned a lot academically. Um, so it was just a--for me, at that phase in my life, it was perfect.

ARD: Very good. Was there, um, a college professor or someone that you met during your college career that kind of guided you into law school at that point?

EDWARDS: Um, it's--that's, that's funny. Probably the, uh, two professors that I was, that I, that I had the best relationship with. One was a--um, a writer. He was, um, an African-American studies professor, but he was also an, I, I guess, a co-appointment in the English department. His name was Leon Forrest, and he was, um, he was one of my first professors up there. And I probably ended up taking three or four courses from him and, and got to know him pretty well. And he was, uh, a great just, just mentor, as far as a lot of different 00:12:00things. Uh, but not--he didn't push me towards the law. Um, another professor that I had that I really enjoyed was, uh, a professor named Jerry Goldman. And Professor Goldman taught a constitutional law class. Um, but he tried to discourage me from going to law school. He told me--I remember him telling me. He said, um, you know, "No one gets smarter by going to law school. Go to graduate school and learn something." And, uh, so, uh--and I really was torn when I was leaving college. I was really, um--I ended up double majoring in, in political science and African-American studies. And I was really torn as to whether or not I should go to graduate school and, uh, go that route, or, uh, I guess, go into the family business and teach, um, or go to law school. And I ended up going to law school, uh, much to the, uh, disappointment of Professor Goldman. And, uh--but funny story. I--I went to law school, practiced, and I'm 00:13:00sure we'll talk about this a little bit more later. But, um, at some point--I guess it was in 2007, I accepted a full-time faculty appointment out at U of L [University of Louisville] in the Pan-African studies department, and, uh, which I had--I did that until the time of my appointment to the bench. Um, but not long after I took that appointment, I reached out to Professor Goldman to tell him that, "Okay. I finally took your advice. I've come back. I'm back."

ARD: That's wonderful. So where did you go to law school at?

EDWARDS: I came back and went to University of Kentucky for law school.

ARD: And what was that environment like?

EDWARDS: Um, well, you know, law school is law school. I mean, anyone who loves law school, they, they're, they're built differently than me. Um, um, I don't, law school is meant to be challenging, and it's, it's meant to, to, uh, be, be tough. And it was all of that. Um, I met my wife, which was, which was 00:14:00fantastic. She was, uh, uh, ahead of me in law school, but we met down there at UK [University of Kentucky]. Um, and, you know, I made some good friends. I, I think, uh, UK certainly prepared me well for, uh, my practice, um, both, both as far as preparing me for the, you know, the X's and O's of practicing law. But it also did a good job from a, from the standpoint of, it exposed me to a lot of people who, uh, who've been able to assist me throughout my career, both as a lawyer. Um, you know, when I get cases out in the state, I oftentimes might run into an old classmate who was, you know, practicing in Bowling Green or practicing somewhere else in the state. And that was, that was helpful. And, uh--so, you know, um, I didn't absolutely love, uh, my time in Lexington. I'm not going to, uh, say that. But it prepared me well.

ARD: That's good. Tell me something that you really remember from that time period.

EDWARDS: In law school?

ARD: In law school.

EDWARDS: Hmm. Um, I guess, you know, from a, from an academic standpoint, I--I struggled a bit my first year. I think part of it was, um, you know, there was, there was a bit of immaturity. I was still, you know, kind of had the undergraduate mindset and, and wanted to hang out with my friends. And I was traveling back still to Chicago. Um, so I, I wasn't as focused as I should have been. Um, but I do remember that after, after not doing well academically my first year, um, fast-forwarding and, and, and finally, you know, I guess the, the, the switch finally went off. And I, and I realized what I was going to need to do. And I remember, uh, taking tax, um, which, you know, it is what it 00:16:00sounds like. You learn about tax law. Not the most exciting thing in the world, but I liked it for some reason. I--I enjoyed it. I liked these--in the context of law, law school, tax is probably more objective than most of the other courses. Uh, you either get it right or you don't. And it's not a professor determining how clearly or how well you wrote your answer. I liked that. And, uh, I felt that I had some control over, over--more control than in some of the other courses over my, my grade. And I did well, probably did as well in that class as I did in any class in law school. Um, and that kind of was a turning point for me in law school. It was--it was after that that, I, I think, it, it became clear that, okay. I'm cut out for this. I, you know, I'm going to get through this. And, and, you know, and things did turn around for me then.

ARD: And so they turned around, and you graduated. And then you went where to 00:17:00start practicing?

EDWARDS: When, um--I think it was the summer before my third year of law school, I accepted a, uh, uh, summer clerkship at the Department of Public Advocacy in Frankfort. And, uh, I was assigned to the capital post-conviction unit, which, uh, they handled the appeals for people on death row. Uh, my very first day, we, I was told to, uh, meet one of my future co-workers, uh, a woman who was a paralegal in the department. And we were going to drive up to Cincinnati for an argument. That's all I was told. I didn't know. You know, so I was like, okay. So we--I meet her, and we drive up. And the attorney that I was going to be working for was arguing a--a habeas corpus writ, uh, before the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, um, for Harold McQueen, who ended up being 00:18:00the, um, first person executed in Kentucky since the moratorium had been lifted. Um, so, you know, that was--obviously, it's bittersweet in retrospect. But that, that was my very first day on the job, and I really didn't know what the job was, you know. It was a summer clerkship. I took it. And, um, and at that time, I had no, uh, thought that I wasn't someone who knew I wanted to, uh, be a criminal defense attorney or practice criminal law. Um, I was just, like a lot of law students, just trying to figure it out. And, uh, so that, that was the first day on that job. I spent the summer. Uh, we went to Eddyville a few times. We, um--you know, I got to, you know, write bri--write memos to assist the attorneys in, in developing their briefs and their appellate briefs on, I think, four death-penalty cases. And I kind of really, uh, you know--I, I, I had a--it was a much better experience than I thought it would be. I didn't 00:19:00think it would be a bad experience. I just, you know--I just thought it would be a job. And, uh, I really enjoyed it. Um, the--I thought the people were really neat that I worked for. I loved their--their passion for what they did. So, uh--and during that time, I met Allison Connelly, who, uh, was the, the public advocate for the State of Kentucky. She was the head of the Department of Public Advocacy. She, uh, not only was my boss, in--in--in--in a sense, but she also became my trial practice professor in my third year of law school at UK. And, uh, she truly was, uh, probably the most influential person that I met when I was in law school. Um, she--she--she has, um, unbelievable energy, unbelievable passion for what she does. Um, and she encouraged me to, uh, really think about a career as a public defender, um, which is what I did. So a 00:20:00long way of getting back to your question. But--so after law school, um, I was fortunate enough to get an offer, uh, from the public defender's office here in Louisville, which I accepted. And, uh, spent that summer after law school studying for the bar. Moved back to Louisville in August, um, right after the bar. Got married first of September and started my new job as a public defender right after, right after I got married.

ARD: And how long did you, um, serve as a public defender?

EDWARDS: I--I was there almost three years. So I started there in ninety-six, and, uh, I left there at the end of ninety-eight, I believe. Um, and, uh, I, I had a--a very, very rewarding experience. It was very, very difficult work. Um, you know, you--obviously you don't get paid a lot. I knew that going in. Uh, um, what I did not know was how hard I would be working. Um, I mean, you, 00:21:00you really get thrown in. And you get thrown right in there. I mean, within six months, I--I had, uh, clients that were facing twenty years and more in prison. And I was--it was all--I was their attorney. It wasn't--I wouldn't sit second chair. I wasn't, uh, you know--I made the decisions. Um, and, uh so I--I learned more during that three years, uh, probably, than any other three-year period of, of life. It was, uh--you know, just, I--I learned about people. You know, you're dealing with, uh, you know, folks with mental illness issues, with serious substance abuse issues, um, who, who've, who've been abused, um, who have all kinds of different issues, you know. And you really do 00:22:00gain more of an appreciation, uh, for the complexity of human nature. Um, you know, you, you look at media coverage of, of, of crime, and it's usually pretty, pretty, you know, two-dimensional. You know, bad guys, good guys. This person did this horrific thing. Um, and, I, you know, I certainly had clients that did, you know, reprehensible things and that warranted, you know, significant punishment. But you also appreciate, you know, the oftentimes mitigating factors. Why did they do this? What's going on? You know, what can we do to keep them from not doing this type of thing again? Um, and, and, you know, I got--I really developed, I think, a, a much more in-depth appreciation for some of the issues, um, that affect our community, particularly as it pertains to crime and poverty, um, than I probably could have ever developed with, without out that experience.

ARD: So after public defense work, where did you go?

EDWARDS: After I left the public defender's office, I went into, uh--I went out on my own, but I went into--I took an office with, uh, two attorneys who are 00:23:00here in town: Darryl Owens, um, who'd been practicing for years, and John Stewart, who, uh, had, had also been practicing for quite, quite a long time. And, um, uh, John--Darryl, he, he, he was kind of--he told me then--and, and again, this was ninety-eight--that he was winding down, that he was ready to, to wind everything down. And he's still practicing here. (laughs) But, uh, but, so John kind of is the one that pulled me in. And it was a great place, uh, for a young attorney to start, because A, both of those attorneys have fantastic reputations. Um, you know, they, they were engaged in the law. They are ethical. Um, and, and for, for a young attorney who's just--you know, I kind of knew how to practice law at that point, at least criminal law, but I knew nothing about how to run a law practice. Um, how to, you know, get clients. 00:24:00How to keep clients, how to develop my reputation in the community. And they were great role models for that. So, um, I went with those guys for, uh--I was there from--I guess for about two years. And then, um, uh, an old law school classmate of mine, uh, um, Sadiqa Reynolds, um, we--we--we--we got to talking and decided we wanted to kind of start up our own shop. Um, so we--I left, uh, John and Darryl, and then Sadiqa and I set up our own office over on Old Louisville, uh, and continued. At that point, uh, I think that was around the time that I also was give, given an opportunity to, uh, work as a guardian ad litem attorney. Um, and that, that was an experience that, that was very beneficial and has been very helpful to me. And it was a great experience. I--I represented children who had been abused, neglected, or left dependent. 00:25:00Um, and I was their advocate in, in those proceedings. Usually, um, the Cabinet for Families and Children would initiate, uh, a petition against the parent if, uh, they'd been notified. They'd investigate. They'd usually get a tip that a kid was being neglected or abused. They'd investigate it. They'd substantiated it, and they would bring a petition. Uh, the parent would have to come to court, um, and the child would, would be assigned an attorney. So I was one of the attorneys, um, who would be assigned to represent the children's interest in those cases.

ARD: Woah, that's amazing public advocacy work right there.

EDWARDS: It, it was. It was, you know, it was, um--boy, you'd, you'd see some sad stuff. But it was, uh, it was--it was a rewarding job overall.

ARD: Well, here's your opportunity to tell me about something that really stands out in your memory, um, about your practice, across the, the entirety of your practice.

EDWARDS: Hmm. okay. Um, you know, I--I guess I'll never forget--um, you know, 00:26:00I'll, I'll, I'll never forget that first jury trial. You know, the first time I tried a case. That was, uh, that was, you know, the butterflies are going. And then that feeling at the end, after you've completed your closing argument. You're waiting for the jury to finish their deliberations. And when the judge calls you in and says, "They've got a verdict." And sitting at that table, and that jury walks out. I--you know, I still get a rush from that as a judge, you know, and it's, uh--and I don't have a dog in the fight anymore. But I still get a--get a--get a rush, uh, about that. So that stood out. Um, my first death penalty trial as an attorney was certainly, uh, an experience that I'll never forget. Uh, you know, the, the amount of time that we worked putting together the defense in the case. Uh, the case probably lasted, with the jury selection process, uh, it probably was about a three-week trial. Um, and, you 00:27:00know, my wife still talks about it. She hated when I would do death-penalty cases, because she says I didn't sleep well at night. I tossed and turned. Um, I'm already skinny, and she said I'd lose weight. She's like--and so I'd do one of those cases, and afterwards I'd always say, "Okay, that's it. I'm not doing any more of these." And then six months later, I'd get a call, and I'd, I'd take it again. Um, so, my, my, uh, uh--I'm very proud of the work that I did, um, as a death-penalty attorney. Uh, I--I think that, uh, there aren't a lot of attorneys, um, here in Louisville who, um, you know, who, who did that work and who, I--I would say are--there's a lot. I don't mean to say there aren't a lot of competent or qualified attorneys, but just who, who--it's a unique type of work, doing death-penalty case. Um, so I'm, I was, you know, that's something that I--I take great pride that I did over my career. I probably--I did try, 00:28:00uh, six death-penalty cases, um, here in state court, and I was counsel, co-counsel on a federal death-penalty case, um, that did not go to trial. That resolved, uh that settled prior to trial.

ARD: So moving out of practice, you talked a little bit about, um, going into professorship. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

EDWARDS: Sure. Um, and I can't--I think it was probably--my first time teaching was, um, maybe around 2004. Um, I had, uh, had a, had just a random encounter with a, uh, professor at U of L Law School, and I had expressed to him that if they ever needed anyone to teach a trial practice class, that I would love to, to be considered. And, uh, about a year later, I got a call. I can 00:29:00tell you exactly when it was, because I remember my son was born in 2004. So, uh, so in 2004, I got a call. They had an opening, if I would teach a class. It was a night class. Um, I said, "Sure." So, uh, I began, I guess it was the fall semester of 2004. Um, was teaching trial practice at the law school. I had a brand new baby boy at home, so I wasn't sleeping, and I was teaching this class at night. So that was--it was--it was tough. But I, I--I liked being in the, in the classroom. That was my first time actually--you know, I'd spoken to kids at schools and stuff, but I'd never taught a class. Um, so I really enjoyed it, um, and I, and I stayed on as an adjunct out at the law school for a few years--probably until I went on the bench--um, teaching trial practice. And then, um, I want to say maybe 2006, uh, a friend of mine, who worked in the Pan-African studies department told me he had this idea to start kind a, uh, of 00:30:00a visiting professorship, where they would have a visiting professor come in and teach a class. He asked if I'd be interested. I said, "Sure." I said, "What do you want me to teach?" And he said, "I don't care. Create a class." So I was like, "Really? I can do whatever I want?" So I--I did. I put together a class called, uh--it was called "Legal Lynchings: A History of Race and Law in the United States." Yeah. And, uh, and, I--I worked so hard putting that course together. Uh, you know, just getting my syllabus together and picking out what the, what the reading materials would be. And, and, and I really enjoyed that. Um, I think I was pretty well-received. And, and then in 2007, they decided--in the Pan-African studies department, decided to start, um, a center to study crime and justice in black communities. And the, uh, director 00:31:00of the center would become a full-time, uh, professor, a tenure-track professor at the, in the university. So, uh, I interviewed for that position, uh, and was given a, given an offer. And I accepted it. So in 2007, I became a, um, full-time, uh, professor in, in the Department of Pan-African Studies, which was NCAS (??) out at, uh, university. And they let me, uh, maintain a practice. Um, I was--I really scaled my practice back. And, uh, essentially, all I was doing was, uh, outside of my academic responsibilities. I maintained my position as a guardian ad litem. And, uh, I'd--I'd usually have a capital case that I was working on. So I would do those. And then that's about all I really felt comfortable doing. [cell phone notification] Um, so I, uh, was in the classroom from 2007 until, um, until opportunity came to, to, uh, serve as a 00:32:00judge in 2009.

ARD: In 2009, you became a judge. Um, was that something that was on your radar as something you wanted to do?

EDWARDS: You know, it's, it's funny. I remember, um, talking--I remember sitting in, in Judge McAnulty's office. And this would probably have been, I don't know, 2006 or something. And, and we were talking, and we would have coffee. And he, uh, he, he told me--I don't remember what the exact full context of the discussion, but he said, "You know, and I'm telling you this because I anticipate one day you're probably going to want to do this." And I said, "I don't know. Running a campaign and doing all that? I don't, I don't think so." And, uh, but he, and he just kind of rolled his eyes. He was like, "Yeah, okay." And, uh, and then, uh, I was approached--I guess, I guess it was around 2008. Uh, the word came down that they were making some changes in the 00:33:00retirement system for judges. And, um, uh, sitting judges in the past, once they, I guess got a certain number of years of service in, they could become senior status. They could retire, become senior status judges, and it would enhance their pension. They were essentially going to be eliminating that senior status program. Um, so if a judge wanted to have an opportunity to do that and maximize his or her pension, they would have to retire in order to get in there. Because they were going to--it, it, uh, there was like a deadline, a cutoff. So what happened was there was a number of judges who, I think, were pretty happy doing what they were doing, but, um, felt that they could not pass up that opportunity to maximize their pension. So they retired earlier than they normally would have. So it left a situation where there were going to be, I think, seven vacancies on the district court bench and two vacancies on the circuit court bench. Uh, and included in those, uh, judges that were retiring 00:34:00were, uh, Judge Stringer and Judge Martin. Um, Judge Clayton had moved up to the court of appeals. So we were in a situation where, here in Jefferson County, there was going to be no African-American judges on the trial bench on the district court, circuit court, or family court benches. There'd be none. So a lot of people were quite concerned about that for a number of reasons. And I was approached about, uh, putting my name in the hat, um, to fill one of those vacancies. And initially I said, "No." I--I wasn't interested. I--I was teaching. They were letting me develop my own courses. I was able to do a little practicing on the side. I was happy. I was really enjoying where I was at. Um, and, uh, but there were some folks who were persistent. And, uh, they said, "Well, give it some thought. Give it some thought." And finally, a friend of mine asked if I would at least come down to Frankfort and talk to some people about it. So I said, "I don't know." And I thought. I talked to my 00:35:00wife about it, and she was right. She told me, "Well, if you go, then you're going to put your name in. You're not, you're not going to go down there and, and tell him no." And, uh, and she was right. So I went, and I said, "Well, I'll put my name in the hat." Um, and I did say--there was--I think there was some folks who thought I should put my name for, in for one of the district court seats. And I did make that decision. And, uh, I'd practiced a lot in district and circuit, so I knew what those judge, what each judge does. For me, for my personality, it, it just was not, I didn't think, a good fit. And I felt that I'm quite happy doing what I'm doing now. Um, I don't want to give that up to take a job that I don't think I'll be happy at. Uh, so I said, "I, I'm not interested in that. I'll--I'll put my name in the hat for one of the circuit court seats. Um, and if it happens, it happens. If not, so be it." So I did. 00:36:00Um, and I ended up, uh, coming out of a nominating commission, and ended up, uh, ultimately getting selected by the governor to, um, uh, fill the vacancy when Judge Morris retired, here in Division 11.

ARD: So subsequent to that, have you had to be elected?

EDWARDS: Yes. Uh, so that was in 2009, September of 2009, when I was appointed. And, uh, the, the rules are that once an individual's appointed to fill a vacancy, they have to run the next election cycle to keep the seat. Um, so in--so effectively, as soon as I got appointed, I was on--I was campaigning. I was, you know--it was time to get ready, because I knew someone was going to run against me. I didn't know who, um, but I just was not naive enough to think that I was just going to get a pass. And, uh, sure enough, someone did file 00:37:00against me in 2010. And, uh, luckily it was just one, so I didn't have to run a primary in May. But I did have a general election in November. So I spent 2010 learning how to run a campaign. I'd never been involved in a campaign before. I didn't--I didn't know what I didn't know. And uh, so I was, uh, you know, just trying to figure it out, you know. The process of, uh, getting endorsements, uh, finding out which meetings you needed to be at to meet people and who you needed to be talking to. And, uh--oh, and then, of course, the, the joy of raising money, you know, which was--and, uh, um--so, you know, I spent 2010 campaigning. You know, I'd work. I was learning to be a judge during the day, and then at night, I was out, you know, trying to meet as many people and, and, and, and keep my job.

ARD: Um, you talked a little bit about Judge McAnulty being kind of a mentor to 00:38:00you. Obviously by this time, he was no longer with us. Um, was there someone else in your life at your time that was kind of teaching you how to campaign or telling you where to go?

EDWARDS: Yeah. Uh, you know, uh, Judge Clayton and I have always, uh--you know, I practiced in front of her, and I tried cases. So she's always been someone who I've looked up to. Um, which she'll, she'll like that, considering everybody's always making short jokes about her. (laughs) But, uh--but, uh, no, she's always been somebody who I've admired, who I've looked up to, who's, who's kind of been someone--and even to this day, when I have issues or problems or questions, I--she's right upstairs. And I'll go upstairs and talk to her. Um, so she'd ran campaigns. She'd been through it. She knew, she knew about that. Um, and also, though, she probably was and still is, uh, the person that I talk to the most about being a judge. About, you know, "How did you deal with 00:39:00this type of issue? Or when this happens, how did you, you know, how did you address that?" And, uh--so she definitely has been, been someone who's been there for me.

ARD: Wonderful. Um, has race ever come up as an issue during your campaigning?

EDWARDS: Um, you know, it was--it was interesting. When I, when I was running in 2010, there had, um--of the nine vacancies that the governor had to fill, um, four of those vacancies went to African-American judges. It was myself and Judge Stevens, uh, on the circuit bench, and then he appointed, uh, my old law partner--who I referenced earlier, Sadiqa Reynolds--to one of the district court seats, and then Erica Lee Williams to one of the seats. So, uh, the four of us--you know, obviously we had things in common, uh, one of which was neither of us, none of us knew what in the world we were doing out there on the campaign 00:40:00trail. So, uh, we, we, we did kind of, you know, I think we grew closer. Um, there were places that we would go together. Um, as far as race really being a big issue in my campaign, it, my opponent did not really raise that as an issue or anything. Um, and you know, and judicial campaigns are somewhat unique. Historically, the moment someone goes negative in a judicial campaign, things really go bad for them. Because, I think, that the public kind of expects that judges kind of hold themselves to a little bit higher level. And, um, it's one thing for, you know, people running for some of the other offices. I'm thinking now, unfortunately, it's kind of become expected that people are going to sling mud and do that. But, uh, fortunately, as of now, judicial campaigns for the most part, here in Jefferson County, have been pretty aboveboard. Um, you know, 00:41:00we're, we've been--we're somewhat limited as to what we can talk about from an issues standpoint. Um, so you're really talking about your qualifications, your temperament, those types of things. And, um, from the standpoint of--because temperament is so important, I think that, uh, most candidates--most viable, legitimate candidates will, will be very reluctant to, uh, you know, come out there, uh, slinging mud at an opponent. Because I think it just undermines their argument that they'll--you know, if you're acting like that on the campaign trail, you can imagine how you would act with a robe on in, in the courtroom. So.

ARD: That's, um, wise advice right there for people looking forward into campaigning. Um, you have historically scored well on satisfaction surveys conducted by local attorneys. Why do you think that is?

EDWARDS: Um, you know, I'm always happy when I see those, those, those numbers. 00:42:00I--I try to treat lawyers the way, um, that I wanted to be treated when I was practicing. And, um, I--I think that, you know, my experience as an attorney--I mean, I--I had a pretty broad--we talked a lot about my criminal, but I did some civil work, too. And I--when I was over in family court as a guardian ad litem attorney. And, I, you know, I, I joke with my staff sometimes. They'll, they'll get on me when I'm making copies and doing things. And I'm like, "Look, you know. I worked in a one-person office for years. I'm used to licking the stamp and making my own coffee. And I don't, you know--that's just how I am, you know." Um, but I think, you know, I appreciated judges that, uh, treated lawyers with respect. That, that, uh, you know, understood that, at some point, I'm advocating for my client. But this, you know, there's no need to yell at 00:43:00me. I, you know, I didn't, I didn't break in the house. I didn't, you know, I didn't do this. Uh, I'm doing my job. I'm being his devil's advocate here. Um, and so, you know, I always try to keep that in mind. I try to treat lawyers with respect. I try to be, um, uh, cognizant of the fact that lawyers do have lives outside of their jobs. So if a lawyer is., uh, uh--if I'm trying to set a trial date, and a lawyer says they've got a vacation planned here, or they've got another trial set in another division. Well, I remember how it was. I remember those judges that would say, "Well, I don't care." I remember those judges that would say, "Well, I don't care about that other division. You're going to try this in here." And that puts you in a really tough spot, you know. And so I try to keep those things, uh, in mind when I'm, when I'm, you know, doing what I do in, in the courtroom. And, um, and I'm always, I'm always open to, to constructive criticism. You know, I, I, you know, I want to know 00:44:00what--from lawyers, I want to know what, what they like and what they don't like. What ticks them off. And, uh, you know, one of the best pieces of advice I'd heard--and I heard this from, uh, one of the senior judges here, but I've heard it from other lawyers, too--is, you know, oftentimes, yeah, you want to win when you have a motion pending before the court. What you really want is a decision. You know, you just, you, you, you just need to know. And then, if you lose, then you talk to your client and figure out, "Are we going to appeal it? Are we going to live with it?" But sometimes, the worst thing is for a lawyer to have to keep getting that phone call from their client. "Has the judge decided yet? Do you know what's going to happen? Do you know what's going to happen?" So, uh, you know, that's why I constantly have these stacks in here. I want to make sure I know what I've got pending, and, and, and I don't want it hidden some, somewhere. I want it to be there. So, you know when I have down time, I'm working on it and trying to get, get things out as promptly as possible.

ARD: This is not one of our scripted questions, but just talking to you, it, 00:45:00uh, it occurs to me that maybe an understanding of what a judge's job is would be useful for this study, um, that we're doing. Just kind of letting people know, what, what do you do?

EDWARDS: Um-hm. Um, in a, in a sense we are, uh, you know, we're referees. You know, you have, uh, in, in either a civil or a criminal case, you have these parties, there's a conflict. Um, you know, you've got the government saying, "This person did this." And you've got the person over here saying, "I didn't do it." Or, or, "Prove it." And in a civil case, you know, "You did this to me, and you owe--you need to compensate me." You know, or vice-versa. So, uh, they're the ones fighting. My job's not to fight with the lawyers. My job is to make sure they fight clean and that they play by the rules. And the rules are the rules of evidence. You know, that the information that comes before the court is as clean as possible. Because the cleaner it is, uh, the, the more it 00:46:00increases the likelihood that we're going to end up with the right decision and that justice is going to be served. So, um, a judge has to know those rules very well. You have to know what the rules of evidence--and you have to know, not--you have to know why they're there, why they're important. Uh, you know, when I taught trial practice, I would tell my students that you take evidence class in law school, but in my opinion, you don't learn evidence until you take trial practice. Because you're just reading these rules. You know, this is the hearsay rule. Don't let somebody, you know--you learn that rule. And this is--but when you're in a trial, and all of a sudden you start thinking about, um, if I'm accused of doing something, and Erica comes in and says, "Um, yeah, uh, I was talking to Tammy, and Tammy said she saw Brian do it." Well, that would be totally unfair to me to allow Erica to come in and say that. And I 00:47:00think that we all understand why. It's like, well, did Tammy really say that or didn't she? Is Erica just making that up? If Tammy wants to--if, if they want to use that, Tammy needs to come in and say it. And that's the, that's the core basis for the hearsay rule. But I don't think I, at least personally, I didn't really understand that or appreciate that until I saw it in action. And, uh, I think the role of a judge is to not only know the rules, but to know why those rules are critical. Because ultimately, uh, as a judge, I want to make sure that a defendant is receiving a fair trial. If he or she is convicted, I want to make sure that they are convicted because the, the evidence was overwhelming in its likelihood that they did do whatever they're accused of doing. Um, I also want to make sure, uh you, you know, that if they are not, not convicted, that the prosecutors had everything, had every chance to present their case. And I want to give them that opportunity to make their case. I don't want to 00:48:00undermine their ability to present, present their evidence and to present their case. Um, you know, in criminal cases, uh, I--I truly think that the role of a judge here, in a general jurisdiction court like circuit court, it's tougher handling our criminal cases than our civil cases. Because we're making so many discretionary calls, so many calls that are just based off of our gut feel. And you're balancing such important interests. I'm balancing the safety of the community. You know, does this person need to be incarcerated to protect everyone in our community? Um, but I'm also balancing the interest of, what is going to be the impact to this person and his family if he's incarcerated? Um, and, and you're weighing these different interests, you know. And you don't want to ruin somebody, but you also, you have a job to do. And part of that job is protecting the community. So, um--and we all get it wrong sometimes, you 00:49:00know. And, and you have to, you have to, I think, take it seriously. Do the best and, and, and just--you know, I prepare myself that sometimes, I'm going to make a mistake. And I can live with that, as long as I went through the proper process and made the decision based on what I thought was the right thing. I can live with making that mistake. I might not like it, but--I certainly won't like it--but I can deal with that. What I couldn't deal with is if I just made the decision for the wrong reasons and, uh, it went horribly wrong.

ARD: Thank you for that. [cell phone notification] So I'm going to ask you, um, now to tell me something that really stands out in your memory, um, for a case that you presided over as a judge.

EDWARDS: Hmm. okay. Um, I remember, I had a case--uh, I guess this was a couple, a couple of years ago--um, and it was, there were--there were--well, I 00:50:00there's a lot, there's a lot of them, actually. Um, I remember, I had a case about a year ago that was probably one of the toughest cases I had to preside over. It was a, a DUI homicide. Uh, a woman was driving. She was clearly impaired, and she hit a little boy on his bike. And, uh, he died. And we, we thought that the case would settle. Um, Commonwealth [of Kentucky] made a very reasonable offer. And the attorneys, uh, tried their best to get her to accept it. And, uh, between her--after she talked to her, some of her family members, they decided that they didn't want to take it. So the case went to trial, and, uh, it was a highly emotional case for everyone involved. Um, and it, and that was just--it was a tough case personally. The little boy was about the same age as my little boy. I was very familiar with the area of town where, the actual 00:51:00street where the accident took place. I used to live on that street, uh, in that neighborhood. And so that was a tough, tough case. It didn't, it didn't affect--it was a pretty clean trial, so it, it didn't impact my ability to be fair to either side. It was just, from an observer's vantage point, tough for me to watch and listen to. You know, because you, you, you, you work over here in the courthouse. I've been over in the courthouse now since ninety-six, so you get a little jaded. You know, you see stuff and you hear stuff. And--but this was one where, you know, my jadedness was, was penetrated. And it was tough.

ARD: Thank you for sharing with us that story. Um, we talked, before we started interviewing, a little bit about your involvement in Central High School program. Can you tell me what types of community activities you're involved in off the bench?

EDWARDS: Sure. Um, I--I have kind of cut back on some of my community things 00:52:00as of recently. I've got--I've got an almost three-year-old and nine-year-old at home, so I'm coaching my nine-year-old's basketball team. And, uh, I started that just this past fall. Central has their law and magnet program currently run by Joe Gutman, who is a friend of mine and former adversary. He was a commonwealth attorney when I was a public defender. Uh, so he does a fantastic job with the kids from that program. So he'll, he'll have me over there a few times a year to speak with the kids. Um, they'll have, uh, a law day, and I'll go talk on a specific topic over there to the kids. Um, I'm a part of a group within our local bar that matches kids from Central High School up with employers. So we get them in law offices around the county, uh, for summer internships. And, uh, that's been, that's been something very rewarding. One 00:53:00of the young men who, uh, I had when he was a student, and who worked in my, uh, law office at the time, um, he ended up graduating from Central. He went to Georgetown for undergrad. Uh, came back, went to UK for law school. And when he was in law school, he was my first law clerk that summer when he was in law school, uh, back in 2009. And now, he's here practicing law in the public defender's office. So it's been great watching someone come through that program and literally watching them from high school. You know, interviewing him in high school and, and watching him now. He's practicing law in front of me in the courtroom. So it's, it's neat.

ARD: That's very nice. Um, do you want your children to follow in your footsteps?

EDWARDS: Oh, boy. Uh, well, you know, my, my poor kids come from a double-lawyer home. So both, both my wife (laughs)--you know, I--I would not mind. We joke that, you know, no. But we, we joke. But I would not mind it. 00:54:00If that's what they want to do, um, then, you know, I-- the law gets a bad rap. You can do a lot, and you can still do a lot of good in the law. I still think it's a noble profession. Um, I think that it gives--I don't think--you, you have an opportunity to really make people's lives better. Um, and you can't say that about every job. But you really can improve people's lives, uh, through the law. So certainly, if that's what they want to do. Um, if they want to go into it for the right reasons, then I encourage them to do it. Um, on the flip side, if they think going into the law is something that they want to do because they can make a lot of money and, you know, have prestige--nothing. Not disparaging those things, but, you know, don't do it for that reason. Don't do 00:55:00it for that reason.

ARD: With your involvement in the Central High program, and seeing that one gentleman kind of go through the different steps, um, would it surprise you to hear that the number of African-Americans in the legal field has remained relatively unchanged?

EDWARDS: It wouldn't. It wouldn't. Um, you know, I've thought about that for, for years, particularly here. Louisville is a city where, you, particularly in the law, you don't see a lot of folks coming into Louisville from other places. I mean, most of the folks that are, uh, getting sworn in the bar each year, they, they, you know, the overwhelming majority went to one of our three law schools: U of L, UK, or Northern [Northern Kentucky University]. And, uh, um, what, what I've seen since, you know, in the last twenty years or so, is the number, uh, of students in the law school really hasn't changed. The, the 00:56:00minority, the number of black students in law school, you know, on a good year, one of those schools--U of L, UK--might, might admit ten, on a good year, you know. But then there will be a lull, and it will be down to three. You know, and then when you start factoring attrition, um, even though ten might be starting off in the first year class, only five might be graduating. Then you factor in things like, you know, you have someone who's, you know, "Well, I'm graduating, but I don't necessarily want to stay here in Louisville. I, I'd like to get a job in DC or Atlanta or Chicago." So from that standpoint, we're losing the few, the small numbers that we have in the school, um, graduating from the schools. And we're really not replacing them. Because I don't think we do a--a really good job at reaching out and bringing in kids from other places, who are graduating from other law schools, you know. And, and part of that, you know, I understand. DC or Atlanta, those are attractive cities for, 00:57:00for a, a twenty-five, twenty-six-year-old. Um, but Louisville has a lot to offer, too. I just--and I think that, um, our employers, um, can do a better job at, at being aggressive and committed to, to increasing that number.

ARD: How, um--just following up on that, do you have any specific recommendations for increasing the minority participation? You mentioned a little bit about the, the employers being more aggressive. Can you expound?

EDWARDS: I think, I think that--a couple of things. I think that it's going--I think that there's some, some things in place that are going to make it, uh, inevitable that--I think they're going to be forced, from a financial standpoint, to be more aggressive at diversifying their, their, their staffs, particularly the large firms. Because, um, a recent trend--and I, I've seen this with some of my peers who I went to law school with--are, uh, someone goes 00:58:00to law school, an African-American male or female. And they, they do well. Uh, and they get on with a large firm, ------------(??). And, uh, but they're there two or three years, and they start to feel somewhat disenchanted. Uh, but they, they, they, you know--and then the headhunters call and say, "Hey, uh, any interest in going in-house somewhere?" And they do it. I--I, I can't tell you how many of my friends, that's exactly the path they were in. So they're at the big firm for three years. Then they leave, and they go to Brown Forman, or they go to Texas Roadhouse, or they go to Wal-Mart. Or, you know, they go in-house in one of these companies. Then you fast-forward. All of a sudden, they're in these positions at these companies where they're controlling where litigation gets sent. And what is now happening is they are saying, "I'm not going to send 00:59:00this business to a firm that only has one African-American, or to a firm that maybe has four African-Americans but none that are really getting any real solid work. Because that's why I left the firms, because I wasn't getting an opportunity to do anything." So they're starting to steer business towards certain offices, certain firms that have, uh, demonstrated more of a commitment towards, uh, diversity and giving everybody an opportunity. And, uh, as a result, firms that aren't doing that are starting to have, uh, serious financial repercussions. They're not getting the bulk of the business that they used to. So, you know, there's a financial incentive, a real economic incentive now, towards, uh, this. And, and we're starting to see it here. And I talked to friends of mine from college who are in bigger markets, and you're really seeing it more, uh, in, in you know, in, in California, in San Francisco, uh, in 01:00:00Chicago. You know, the, the large firms there, they have--they know, you know. And, and it may not be, uh, you know--it may not be--the, the reasons you may question, but, but the, the, at the end, the end result is the same. They appreciate that in order for them to be financially and economically, uh, successful and competitive, their pool of attorneys has to be more in line with whats, what their clients are looking for. And, uh, the clients are starting to change. So a long way of saying, I think that, uh, uh, I think that there's some practical reasons that it, it might change soon. Uh, but I think we still, because of what we talked about at the beginning--it's not going to change the pool of African-American attorneys here in Louisville. It's not going to change, uh, by just traditionally going to U of L, UK, Northern Kentucky, and 01:01:00getting the, you know, and, and waiting for those kids to come. They're going to have to go out to some other areas and bring students in.

ARD: So some things to take note of there. Um, let's pretend you're speaking to a younger version of you. What advice would you give yourself?

EDWARDS: Mm. Um, like a younger version who's practicing law, or a younger version who's like in school or? Where am I at?

ARD: Your choice.

EDWARDS: My choice?

ARD: You can answer both of those questions.

EDWARDS: Okay. Um, well, you know, when I, when I think about my experience and, you know, in school, um, I, you know, I did, I did fine. I did well. But I think there are times when I did enough to get by. I did enough to get to 01:02:00where I wanted to go next. And, uh, so I would, I would, uh, tell younger Brian to, uh, you know, don't, don't--take advantage of this opportunity that you have that you won't have in the future to, to just learn stuff and to just experience different things. Um, you know, if you, if you want to study--you know, I never studied abroad. That would have been a neat thing to do, that experience of going and living in another country for a year there or for half a year there. That would have been fantastic. You know, do something like that. Um, you know, uh, those books that, that, you know, the professors are assigning you or your teachers, your English lit teachers are assigning you that you think are boring or whatnot and you don't even give them a chance. Give them a chance. You know, there's, there's a reason--more than likely, more than likely, there's a reason this book is still being assigned, you know, a hundred years after it 01:03:00was written. So many people know about it probably because it was really good. You know, and it's something that, that you really probably could, it could--you would appreciate. So just open up a little bit. Learn. Uh, those type of things I would certainly encourage a younger Brian to do. I mean, I love reading now. I love learning. I just don't have enough time to do that stuff now. Um, back then I did. So that would be something I would--

ARD: Thank you for that. Is there anything that, um, you want to discuss that we haven't touched upon yet?

EDWARDS: Um, I'm, I'm really glad you talked about and you gave me a chance to talk a little bit about, um, increasing the pool of, of minority attorneys, um, because that's something that I--I feel pretty passionate about. I think it's important. You know, as a judge, I think about, um, what I see in, in court, 01:04:00um, and the lawyers that I see practicing. Our local community, I think, from a gender standpoint, has really made strides. And I've seen it just from ninety-six until today. Um, uh, it's almost to the point where you don't even think about it anymore. From, you know, it's a--you don't even think that, you know, there's a woman who's lead counsel on this case representing, you know, a hospital in a multi-million dollar med-mal case. It's not even thought of. But you don't see that from a race standpoint. You don't--and, and, and when we--we do our motion hour. We hear our criminal cases, and then we start up with the civil cases. And motion hour is just when the lawyers come in, and there's, you know, a motion regarding discovery on a case or--it, it, it gives you a snapshot 01:05:00of the civil cases that you have pending before you. And, uh, it, it is not rare at all, um, for, for us to go through an entire motion-hour docket without a single African-American attorney. And the attorneys there in motion hour, on the civil docket, most of them--usually, there's one from a large firm that's representing the, the corporate entity, and another representing the plaintiff. And you, it's, you--I can probably go weeks sometimes without seeing a single African-American attorney at motion hour. And, uh, you know, it really is at that point where I don't even think about it anymore because it's just, you know--but that's got to change. That's just got to change. And we're in Louisville, I mean, so you can imagine what it's like at motion hour in other places in Kentucky. Um, and, and that--I think that that is, um--I think that there's still a tendency for, uh, you know--and I don't--I went my route and I'm 01:06:00proud of it and I did what I wanted to do. I think there's still a tendency for African-American attorneys oftentimes to get channeled towards public service work, um, uh, and not towards some of the other areas of law. Uh, and, uh, you know, we've got to--that's got to change. That's got to change. Um, and, you know, I think, from what I, what I talked about kind of at length earlier, some of the pressures that particularly the larger firms are, are going to start facing will, will hopefully, in a way, change that.

ARD: Your, um, comments just prompted a question in my own mind. Uh, um, is there a way that we can prepare young attorneys in training to survive the land of large law?

EDWARDS: Mmm. Uh, there--you know, my wife would be someone better suited to 01:07:00answer that than me. Uh, I think that, uh, from every, everybody who I've talked to who's worked at the large firms, I think that the overriding consensus is that your success--you being successful. Um, the common theme for those who are successful there is that they get a shepherd. They get somebody there who's, who will teach them the way and who will, who will, you know, defend them and, and, and show them were the, you know, oftentimes the human being, uh, landmines are. Stay away from him. Stay away from her. Watch out. You know, keep your head down here. Um, and I think it's like that in a lot of areas of work, but I think that, uh, oftentimes lawyers--it seems like what I've heard is they get in these large firms, and they kind of get lost. And they don't have anybody doing that for them. And you can have one bad experience with the wrong 01:08:00person, and that, that can be it. That can be it. Um, you know, so I don't think it's a situation where, from the ability to do the work, the attorneys who are going there are, are not properly prepared. I think that they are prepared to do the work. I think it's just they may not be prepared for some of the other stuff.

ARD: The cultural--

EDWARDS: Yeah. Yeah.

ARD: Well, I appreciate you answering that final question. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

EDWARDS: I can't think of anything. Um, I don't think so.

ARD: All right. Well thank you so much.

EDWARDS: Well no problem. No problem.

[End of Interview]