Interview with Denise Clayton, April 14, 2014

ARD: Okay. Today is April 14th, 2014. This is an interview in the legacy of African-American judges in Kentucky with Judge Denise Clayton at her office in Jefferson County, Kentucky. Thank you, Judge Clayton.

CLAYTON: You're welcome.

ARD: When and where were you born?

CLAYTON: I was born uh, April 28th, 1952, in Louisville, Kentucky.

ARD: And tell me about growing up in Louisville during that time.

CLAYTON: Well, part of my childhood was um, marked by segregation. Um, and so I have memories of that, including the fact that um, you know, you couldn't eat in many of the restaurants. Well actually, I don't know of any restaurant to which we could eat in, to be honest with you. Um, the, uh--you couldn't do the lunch counters, you know, and some stores would not allow black people to try out clothes. So, that was part of the--of what I experienced growing up. Um, 00:01:00and so to--to that extent, because of the, kind of the brutality of segregation, which is--is why your parents really would try to shield you from that kind of hostility, and being a kid, part of my issue was that I didn't really understand why people already disliked me. And I couldn't figure that out. And so that's, knowing that, uh, sometimes got a little difficult.

ARD: And what area of town did you live in?

CLAYTON: We lived, uh, what's really called--initially called the California area. Which is 16th and St. Catherine is where we lived. And then, when I was six, we moved out, moved further west, into the West End, onto Virginia Avenue. Which was uh, 42nd Virginia, which was about five blocks from the--from the river.

ARD: And tell me a bit about your parents, please.

CLAYTON: Um, my uh, father was born in Madison, Indiana. Uh, his father was a, 00:02:00uh, teacher in the--in the school. And his mother was a homemaker. And my father, after graduation from high school, went to Kentucky State Uni--well Kentucky State College then, now University. And, uh, was enrolled there, and graduated from there. He met my mother there. My mother uh, Susie Gas (??), my father was Evan Gas. Uh, my mother, uh, went to, uh, Kentucky State, and graduated, um, she and my father um, I think became engaged, but they--they didn't marry until after he was--came back from World War II. He was in France for about two years. Prior to him being in France, he was working on his master's degree at IU. And my mother, um, was the daughter of Atwood S., S. Wilson, who was principal of Central High School for twenty-nine years, and she and her sisters all graduated from, from college, too. And uh, my mother 00:03:00graduated from college at the age of nineteen, because she attended school, she actually graduated from high school about a year early, and with her birthday being in late June, by the time she graduated, she was still nineteen years old. Uh, w-while my father was in--was active during the war, was in Europe, my mother taught school in uh, Nicholasville, Kentucky, and in Paducah, Kentucky.

ARD: Okay, thank you. And what values did your parents instill in you as a child?

CLAYTON: Well, we all knew, my brother and myself knew that we were going to college. They were very um, encouraging about that. But also just very clear, this is where you're going. The--the good thing about that story, the way they told it, was not only do you need to go, but uh, as my father used to say, those are the best years of your life, you should really just go. And so, it really wasn't a question that I was uh, not gonna go. So, I uh, I attended college. 00:04:00My brother also attended college, didn't finish. But uh, you know, that was something though that was before us ever, that we were going to go. I attended college at Defiance College, in Defiance, Ohio. And then I came back here for uh, law school at University of Louisville.

ARD: Okay. Um, was there any other values uh, such as um, you know, hard work, or perseverance, or something that just was kind of the being of your family?

CLAYTON: Yeah. I think, well, the hard work was--and the other issue was perseverance actually. My grandfather, uh, has, uh, an award named after him that family has given out uh, at Central High School for perseverance. Because that was one of the traits that he admired most, uh, in people, understanding that not everyone comes from a background where they have the kind of push and, 00:05:00um, drive to do it. But when they do hang in there, and just complete a task, he was very uh, admiring of that ability to complete that. And I think the other--probably other values, I mean not surprisingly, you know, would be in terms of how you treat other people, how you treat yourself. Uh, and, and being respectful of people no matter what they did in terms of jobs or occu--occupations. You know, my grandfather being principal, um, meant that my mother and her sisters particularly lived in a very small universe in a segregated um, city. And so, they, they received a lot of attention. Not always what they wanted to receive, but they received that. And so, they knew they were being watched. And I think there was a sense of performance. My grandfather was very big on performance. So, um, so for example, when I talked to my grandfather, um, his question was really not to me how are you doing, his 00:06:00question was what have you been doing? So it was really more of that focus. And he died when I was in the ninth grade, so I have, um, you know, really clear memories, uh, of him. Um, ironically, when my parents moved back to Louisville after my father's job in Madison, Indiana was terminated, because he was principal of a black high school there, and when they decided to integrate the school, they decided not to take, at least initially, uh, really most of the black teachers. They took one, and so my father and mother were both really out of a job. That's why they moved here. But when they moved here, because they were both certified in uh, secondary education. And my grandfather was principal, they wouldn't hire them, because they're only hiring black teachers for the black school. And they were concerned about nepotism, so they did not hire uh, either one of them. As I said, they were not--they weren't concerned about the racism, but they were concerned about the nepotism. So that required them to change directions, and my mother uh, became certified in elementary 00:07:00education. My father decided, uh, to try to find another job, and the job he was hired for was stock boy. And um, you know, which was painful for him. And um, so he ended up progressing through the company, which was Arrow Shirt Company, to assistant purchasing agent when he retired. But, it was, uh, many years of really lost opportunity and, and income.

ARD: Well thank you for that. Let's talk a little bit about your high school and college career. Um, where did you attend high school?

CLAYTON: Central.

ARD: Central. Even though it had already been integrated at that time?

CLAYTON: Um-hm. Yeah. Because I really was not going to, and it wasn't, uh, it was really just because I knew there were still teachers there who knew my grandfather, and my brother had attended there, and my cousins had attended there, and I really just didn't want to get compared to, to them. And it really 00:08:00was about a week before my grandfather died that he asked me if I had decided where to go, and I told him I finally had decided to go to Central, which he was very happy about. Um, so, uh, I decided just--well maybe I did feel comfortable there, it would be okay. Uh, where I thought I was going to go was Emmanuel. Uh, and um, in any event though, I decided to go to Central. Which ended up being a really good experience for me. But it was also true, people did remember my cousins, and my brother, and my mother, and my grandfather. Which was sometimes uncomfortable.

ARD: Yeah. What about um, college?

CLAYTON: Well, I decided after the experience of going to high school where I felt like I was known by uh, enough people, I decided to go someplace where I wouldn't be known at all. I don't know, it always allows an opportunity to reinvent yourself, too. So, I um, chose Defiance College. I knew I wanted to go to a small college, um, that was coed, um, you know, and so you know, when 00:09:00I--one of the tests, I think it was a National Merit exam, they sort of give you a list of colleges that seem to match the profile, at least they did at the time that you were--do they still do that, do you know?

ARD: I don't think so.

CLAYTON: Yeah. Well it matched the profile of what you said you wanted to do. And that was among those colleges that were--was in that pack. And I knew, uh, I didn't--I wanted to be out of Louisville, and out of Kentucky, but I didn't want to be so far away that I couldn't get back. So, Defiance by car was about six hours. Um, and um, so that was where I chose to go. So, that was--that again was a good experience for me. Although socially, it lacked some pizzazz to it, you know, just in--it wasn't quite the wild or defiant place that you might think. Um, and so, but again, it was a good experience for me. And while I was in, uh, college, I studied in Hong Kong for a semester. And um, I did that, and I actually ended up graduating a year early, against parental advice. 00:10:00They were adamantly opposed to me graduating a year early. Of course, they were right, but um, I did go to law school then immediately thereafter.

ARD: Okay. Well what did you study in college?

CLAYTON: I--my major was history and political science.

ARD: Okay. And what type of student were you?

CLAYTON: I was a good student there.

ARD: You graduated early.

CLAYTON: I graduated a year early. Yeah, it--I just really enjoyed it. I enjoyed the fact that a small college, you know, you really get to see your professors a lot. Um, and--and they took an interest in what you were doing, and they could remember you. Because for the most part, I had one class I think that had maybe seventy people, I think maybe that was--other than freshman orientation, that was only one class. After that, it was pretty small--the smallest class, I--I had had five students in it. Which means that you also had to be ready each time, because you're going to be called on each time. So, uh, it was--it was a good experience for me.

ARD: And what about Hong Kong? How was that experience?

CLAYTON: Oh that was, you know, I was sometimes questioning why I was in Hong Kong, it was like, why would I come here? But actually, it was, it was good for me. Although I found myself totally uninterested in studying while I was there. And um, we took, uh, Mandarin Chinese, we took nine hours of Mandarin Chinese, and took other--two other history courses. But, when you're off campus, anything you took only transferred as a pass/fail. So it really didn't impact my GPA. I just needed to pass them. I knew that. And that's about as much effort as I wanted to put in. Um, except for Mandarin Chinese, which I actually studied very well, and I studied a lot, and um, ended up getting an A in Mandarin Chinese.

ARD: Can you still--

CLAYTON: Uh, no (both laugh). I can't do anything in Mandarin Chinese. That, that uh, ability quickly left when I came back to Kentucky, and then to Ohio. I 00:12:00just didn't have much reason to use it. Yeah.

ARD: Sure. That makes a lot of sense. Well um, how did you decide to go to law school?

CLAYTON: Well, there's nothing really glamorous or inspiring about my decision to go to law school. I just couldn't figure out what else to do. I, I first thought about actually either going into journalism, or going into um, history, getting a master's in history. And even considered whether or not I would want to be a curator at a museum. Um, but truthfully, I just couldn't decide really what to--I didn't have any passion to do anything in particular. I couldn't figure it out, except I was pretty convinced I didn't want to start working full-time. So, um, actually when I was in Hong Kong, my roommate in Hong Kong said, well you might as well go. I mean, why not? Other people do it, you can go, you know, it was all this kind of practical, it's a great fallback disease--yeah, disease. Degree. Or disease. Um, and so, um, I decided to go, and um, but it was--law school was a, a difficult experience for me.

ARD: Well, let's talk about law school a little bit.

CLAYTON: I don't know if I want to. But go ahead.

ARD: That's okay.

CLAYTON: No. I'll--I'll talk about it, go ahead.

ARD: It's your interview.

CLAYTON: Yeah.

ARD: Well first of all, you went to University of Louisville?

CLAYTON: Um-hm. Yes.

ARD: And uh, what was your class like? Was it fairly integrated, or?

CLAYTON: Oh no. No, no, no, no. I--you know, it's funny, everybody, at least everybody then would say they really just wanted to be anonymous, going through law school. And I decided the same thing, except I didn't realize, and I was surprised how long this took me to realize this, um, I would be the only black person in my class. And it was--I was the only black person, and I had a really big afro, and somehow I thought that I would be anonymous. That didn't really quite work. Uh, and so, the year I came in, there were two uh, two of us who were going, two black students going there uh, during the day. And probably 00:14:00another one or two in the evening. And for the days, they usually have you, one section or another. And so they put each of us in different sections. So, we also didn't usually see each other very often, and so it was a very isolating experience. And because I really didn't have much passion behind it, I, I'm not sure if psychologically, I was ready for, uh, law school in that sense.

ARD: That makes a lot of sense. Um, what do you remember most about that experience?

CLAYTON: Well, uh, probably that I wasn't going to either flunk out, or they weren't going to kick me out, but I also wasn't going to enjoy it much. You know, it's really just that determination to finish what I started. But I didn't have any real desire to finish that, but I did.

ARD: And did you have any mentors along the way that were trying to help you through the, the challenges?

CLAYTON: Yeah, really, to some extent. Another thing though that was going on 00:15:00for me, in addition to my own reluctance of not having the passion or drive to really want to be there, was the fact that I just encountered some blatant racism. And I also wasn't really prepared, somehow, for that. I didn't expect to see it, because Defiance College was predominantly white, and I didn't experience--experience that, but when I got to U of L, [University of Louisville] I did experience that. And that was something that sort of startled me again, you know, so I already had kind of a suppressed desire to be there, then I run into that, and that took me a while to realize, uh, that it--well some of it, it didn't take me very long to realize. But some other things that happened took me a while to realize it. When I was at U of L, there were two people there that was--were particularly helpful. One was Laura Douglas, who graduated two years ahead of me, and um, she was there, and she would try and 00:16:00tell me what I didn't understand, like what was happening. This was racism or something else, you know, she was there to sort of help me through it. And also, Bill McAnulty was there, uh, also two years ahead of me. So they, they did talk to me, and they tried to advise me of what I should do and all. But, uh, some of their advice I didn't take, because I just really literally could not believe it was happening. So, I would have been much wiser if I had paid attention to what they said. I don't know if it would have made me like law school any better. But I would have, um, maybe functioned in a different way.

ARD: I'm going to ask this question, and you can throw me out later if you want. Just don't answer if you're uncomfortable.

CLAYTON: You just mean--you don't mean literally throw you out?

ARD: No.

CLAYTON: Just figuratively. That too.

ARD: Just don't answer the question if you're not comfortable.

CLAYTON: Okay.

ARD: But, would you mind describing an incident of the racism that you experienced?

CLAYTON: Well, one instance--instance was um, after exams, you can sometimes go 00:17:00to your professors to find out what you did right, and what you did wrong. And I had gone to one particular professor, and asked him what I had done wrong. Because my test wasn't what I wanted, it was a C. And you know, I wasn't really used to making Cs, frankly. And so I was--that was sort of, that startled me some. And I--and I really couldn't figure it out. And I went to see him, and so he let me read an A paper, which is what they always like to do. Uh, you read the A paper, and then you should see the glaring differences with yours. I didn't. And I said, I don't--I don't really understand. I mean, these were the issues, I stated all those issues and did analysis on all those issues, I don't--I don't understand. And so then, um, he said well, you know, it's just, that's what you got. I said, well is it not written well enough? Is it--does 00:18:00it--does it flow? I mean is it a problem with, you know, transitional paragraphs, or subject verb agreement, or whatever? Something substantive I can try to single--because I wanted to do--in the first place, I was stunned a little bit. Um, but the second thing is, I just want to understand what I can do, so I wouldn't do it again. And so, um, anyway, he finally then said, "Well, did you go to a black college?" And I said, "No." And then he said, "Well did you go to a black high school?" And I said, "Yes." He said, "Well that's the problem." And I never knew what that meant, other than some racism. And--and I had another professor who uh, also with a grade I didn't like, and who could not explain why I'd gotten the grade I did. I had another time where a professor, with another student present, we went through our exams, and he admitted he had misgraded my exam, and it should have been a grade higher. So the one student 00:19:00who was there left, because he understood why he got what he got, and I--I stayed, and we talked a little while longer. The professor and I did. I said, "Well, are you going to change my grade?" And he said, "No, I'm not." I said, "Well, I don't understand." Which was my favorite phrase in law school. "I don't understand this." And he said, "Well I'm not going to change your grade, even though it should be a grade higher, because if I change yours, then I have to change other people's, I don't know about all that. I don't know what other people have done. But, uh, he said, and nothing you can really do about it, because we only have an interim dean, and he's not going to side with you over me. And so, said okay. So, I didn't do anything about it, and I thought about doing it, but you know, at some point you just feel like this is a waste of time. And that's sort of the way I was feeling. Um, you know, so it was--that, those kind of experiences, I had another experience where I--I uh, I applied for a co-op position at the Internal Revenue Service, and the criterion only was 00:20:00that you be uh, attending law school. There was no other past requirements. So, the law school was the one that the IRS was going to contact, but I--for um, the uh, any interviews they wanted to do, to be arranged. Well I'm at school every day, they have my phone number, you know, and the day before the IRS has stopped interviewing, I get a call from the law school that says, "Oh we couldn't really find you, um, but by the way, IRS wanted to interview you, but the last day to do that is tomorrow." And so, I said, I said: "Well, again, I don't understand. You've got my number, you found me. You know, and um, anyway, I applied, I went in for--I did get there for the interview. And they did hire me, and then one of the professors there wanted another student to file a reverse discrimination suit uh, involving me, because they said that I should 00:21:00not have gotten the job over this guy, who had had prior IRS experience. And actually, I found out from the guy who, was the teacher wanted to use as the one to um, to get the job, and so, uh, he said: "Well I'm not going to do anything, I'm fine, it's not an issue for me. The only criterion there was when we all met, sitting in that room, and so yeah, I'm not doing anything." So anyway, uh, so those kind of experiences made me think, you know, there's something not right going on here. And so, that, that tended to affect my attitude.

ARD: Well thank you very much for sharing that. Um, I--I noticed you talked about the IRS co-op, and you got that. Is that the only IRS experience, or?

CLAYTON: Well I stayed on after that, and was hired as an estate and gift tax attorney. So I did--I worked two--two years as co-op, and then two more years 00:22:00as an estate tax attorney.

ARD: Okay. And I don't think I've ever heard the phrase IRS co-op. So could you explain what that is a bit?

CLAYTON: It was just, they just had a program where a student could apply for a position with the IRS, um, and, and they would--like a, like a law clerk paralegal position. And then, the co-op part is that you were being, obviously, paid by them, but also you would have a job upon the completion of your law degree.

ARD: Okay.

CLAYTON: You know. You still had to pass the bar, but you initially got a job, and you also um, you know, were given time to pass the exam.

ARD: Okay. And you worked there for two years after graduating?

CLAYTON: Um-hm.

ARD: And you were an estate and gift tax attorney.

CLAYTON: Right.

ARD: So that must have been interesting.

CLAYTON: It was sort of interesting. You know, it's, uh, in my part of the state, because we covered the entire state, was the central and western part of the state. So, I got to travel around, which was, uh, around Kentucky, which 00:23:00was probably something I would not have done. Most of those experiences were okay. Some of them were not as pleasant. You know, coming into a community, first being from the IRS is never pleasant. And then the other thing is that, um, some people get--I ran back into the racism.

ARD: Yeah. Well what did you do after you finished working with the IRS?

CLAYTON: Well I decided to leave the IRS, uh, because I--when I graduated from law school, I was twenty-four. And I decided that I didn't want to limit my career to the IRS. I wanted to see what else was out there, I wanted to try private practice. Um, I also thought I needed a part-time job to--to do that. And one of the part-time jobs I was seeking, which is one that was not really existing at the time. Uh, when we were--when I was in college, um, this one, the Angela Davis uh, trial was going on. And actually, when I first attended, 00:24:00they had not captured her yet. But at our school was the brother of Angela Davis. So we would have some, uh, you know, fundraising events, and all, uh, to help. So whenever she was uh, captured, um, that we would have some, like a--we would have moneys to contribute for the legal uh, campaign. Uh, legal expenses. And so, um, you know, we also had a time where, because he was sort of, our view was, he was being harassed by the FBI, because they thought that he knew where she was. Although I don't think he ever--I don't think she did that, I don't think she endangered her family by letting them know. But we decided that, you know, what college students need is access to legal services, because if something comes down, you don't have anybody to talk to. You don't have money, you don't, you know, you don't even know how to go about engaging a 00:25:00lawyer. So, when I decided to leave the, the IRS, I didn't know if U of L--(clears throat)--excuse me, had that kind of program or not. But I decided to call a friend of mine who was working at U of L, and he didn't--in that, he was working actually in the communications department at the time, and I said, you know, there's a--I just was wondering whether or not U of L had any program like this. He said, "no they don't, but interestingly enough, they're trying to get it off the ground to start legal services for students." And he said, "I can tell you who you need to talk to, to see if they would be interested." So I did, I called them, um, the person who was Harold Adams, and uh, who was a dean of student life, a director of student life services or whatever that position was called, he was assistant vice president. And uh, that was then the student affairs office. And when I talked to him, he said, "well actually, we are thinking about doing this, and why don't you come in for an interview?" And so, I did come in, and then two other students from student government came in, 00:26:00because it was really taken out of something the student government was sponsoring. So, it would be taken out of student activity fees. And so I--I started that program for them. And so I did that, and I started a, a private law practice. I shared office space with some friends of mine downtown. And, uh, again, I just really wanted to broaden my legal experiences. I didn't want to assume at twenty-six that that's where uh, I was going to be until I was fifty-five. Although I mean, I probably could have stayed there. Although they did eventually phase out the uh, the program here, for the estate tax agents. But some of them just went to other programs. So I just, you know, I decided I just needed to experience other aspects of law. And the other thing I needed to do, frankly, was since I didn't really feel warm and fuzzy about my law school, uh, experience, I--I'd felt like I needed to justify or explain to myself why I 00:27:00would even want to remain in law. You know, everything about it, for the most part, had been--I mean my experience with the IRS was good. But uh, but the whole--overall, my experience at the time was negative. So I said well, I need to figure out if I even want to do this. And so, by trying to do legal services I thought, well this is something I said I wanted with a law degree, and so let me see if it works. And I did work there for actually, nine years. At--at U of L. And it did. And what it--what that job did for me was that, even though for the most part, we're only offering legal advice, and sometimes we offered litigation, but um, the--it made me appreciate what the law can do. And how lawyers could step in and resolve issues for people who otherwise are just out there without anyone to advocate on their behalf. So, uh, it, it did for me 00:28:00what it--what it needed to do. Now I don't, you know, I think there are people who don't view that kind of position as being the heaviest of legal positions, in terms of um, its gravitas or whatever. But it was really good for me. And, and also, it got me into the habit of researching various areas of law that I never would have had a chance to research. So, one moment I'm talking to someone about immigration, and the next moment I'm talking to someone about how to um, advocate or talk to them about um, landlord/tenant law, or consumer protection. Or whatever. So it was, it was wide ranging. And I also had an opportunity to do um, legal education seminars, primarily for the college community. Because some of them were broader than that. We had people from--because anybody was invited, so some of them got really good uh, community involvement too. So that also helped me, in terms of public speaking, and um, 00:29:00just sort of feeling comfortable with uh, a variety of issues. So, I left there to go to Legal Aid. And at Legal Aid, I did, uh, family law, family law and housing was my initial um, kind of two subject areas.

ARD: And when you were in your uh, solo practice, was that kind of a--

CLAYTON: It was general--yeah, it was general, but it was more civil than criminal.

ARD: Okay.

CLAYTON: Um, so, and I learned a lot doing that, too. And had the opportunity to, you know, be in circuit court, and district court. So that was--and that's ironically, because of the job at U of L, it also made some sense for me to continue to do that, because if I'm going to advise people on what's going on in court, I at least sort of need to be there.

ARD: Very good. And so, you went to Legal Aid after how long as a um, solo practitioner and--

CLAYTON: Well, uh, that solo practitioner, and U of L all were for nine years. Both of them, they were simultaneous. Because when I left, uh, to go to, uh, 00:30:00Legal Aid, I could no longer do a private practice.

ARD: I would imagine not.

CLAYTON: Yes. I could not --

ARD: I suspect your workload --

CLAYTON: That got to be a little busy. But, you know, I never made a lot of money, frankly, in private practice. So my other realization was, this is not probably my strength. Um, trying to--you could always find clients, but finding clients who were going to pay you was a whole different issue. So, I was really happy to give up the law practice.

ARD: And, you--family law and housing--

CLAYTON: Um-hm.

ARD: -- at, at Legal Aid, and then you rose to be the associate director?

CLAYTON: Right. Right.

ARD: Tell me about that career.

CLAYTON: Well, um, you know, it's um, I--I felt like I had some administrative experience already with uh, the U of L position. And so, I--and I had some dealings with, uh, some degree of personnel issues, for example. And I also was 00:31:00on a lot of different boards and community, uh organizations. And I had some other experiences with, you know, board-related issues, sometimes involving management issues. So I felt that this was a position that I was, um, that I could do, and I was well suited to do. So, when the position became open, which was I guess in 1991, maybe, or so, I guess, uh, then I applied for it.

ARD: Okay. And how long were you there?

CLAYTON: I was at Legal Aid from 1987 to 1996. So another nine-year cycle.

ARD: Was it a nice cycle?

CLAYTON: It was, it was going pretty well.

ARD: Um, and did you try any cases as a lawyer?

CLAYTON: Oh yeah.

ARD: And is there one that kind of stands out in your memory?

CLAYTON: I probably have two that were, um, not from private practice, but from Legal Aid that were fairly significant to me. One was a case involving a 00:32:00custody trial, uh, with a uh, woman who was not married to the father, and the father seeking custody of the child with he and his wife now saying that they were going to--to raise the child. And it was very--a difficult trial because of course, they could offer a little bit more, but the other problem, I thought, was that if--if um, his--his behavior as a married man was questionable to me. And so, uh, you know, we--we tackled that issue some. But to some extent, of course, it's not really relevant in the child custody thing. It was a close-kept question, and uh, we prevailed on that issue, and it was just, she was really just um, it was just difficult for her. Um, the other thing, um, was a case where I was representing clients in eviction court, and the landlord had 00:33:00done an illegal set out, set them out prior to any adjudication of--uh, that they were um, in violation of their lease. So, they were, they came to court, and they um, we were arguing, the argument was going to be that with this violation, that they should be allowed back into the apartment and the landlord should be forced to take up the eviction proceeding correctly. And um, anyway, um, we went to court, they came to court, and they came in the courthouse with pillowcases. And I said, "What--what is--what are the pillowcases for?" And they said, "Well, these are all the possessions we have left after the landlord set out our stuff, because everybody else took those items, and we also didn't have--some things that weren't taken, we had no place to store it." So, um, that was a--that was difficult, and it was difficult for me also because when I went in prior to the trial beginning, we were sitting in the courtroom and the 00:34:00judge said, "What is, what's this about?" And I told him, then he said, he said, "Well, um, you--you can forget that. I'm not going to make the landlord let them back in." I said, "Well, judge, respectfully you haven't heard my argument yet." Then he said, "I don't care what you say, uh, I'm not going to let them back in." And of course he didn't say this on the record, and of course, I uh, did not get him to say that on the record when we went on the record. Um, but I told my clients, I said, you know, we can appeal this, because this was clearly wrong. And we already know that he already pre-judged the case. Even without knowing the law, without knowing that he's not going to be receptive to any arguments. And um, and they said, they said, "We can't." They said, "We just can't take any more, you know," and they just walked out. I never saw them after that. It was just very difficult.

ARD: That would be very challenging. Now, when did you first want to become a 00:35:00judge yourself?

CLAYTON: Well that was a long process, because I really did not want to become a judge. Uh, people had to convince me to go for it. And um, I did apply for one vacancy, which I didn't get, um, and then I applied for another one, which I didn't get. Uh, then I applied for one that had two vacancies. One in district, one in family. And I wasn't going to do that, because I already had enough, I thought I had enough rejection. And um, one of the judges, uh, said to me, "you should really apply for this again." He said, "you know, you shouldn't give up on this. And um, and so you should try to go for it." And I wasn't going to go for it, and I was sitting in my office one day when one of the attorneys walked in, and said, "I think you should apply for the vacancy in district or family court." And I said, "Well, you know, I uh, I don't think I 00:36:00want to, and I think the closing deadline is tomorrow." And so she said, "It is, which is why I brought you the form, because I knew you wouldn't apply for it." So then I said, "well, you know, okay, I said, but I don't--I don't have anybody else to type this, other than my secretary, and my secretary was really busy. And I don't know that she can do this." And she was, she was in one of those busy periods, so she was swamped. So I fill this out, and then I go to her, and I say, "Well if you have time, and if you don't mind, would you type this?" I said, "I know you're really busy." She said, "You know, it's sort of interesting," she said "it all cleared up. I can do it now." So she did. And then I called Frankfort, to the person accepting the applications, and I said, "This is--I'm, I'm sending this, but it may not get there by the deadline." She said, "That's okay, if we know that you want to send it in, you can go ahead and do that." She said, "Why don't you fax it to me, and then mail in the original?" So, so I did. So, it just felt like, to me, sort of the stars were aligning for me to--to get this. And I did get the appointment at that--in 00:37:00district court, not in family court.

ARD: Okay. And, um, I know you served in district court for--

CLAYTON: About two years.

ARD: Two years?

CLAYTON: And then I went to family court.

ARD: And from there?

CLAYTON: I went to circuit court.

ARD: And, uh, we're going to talk a little bit more about all of those kinds of experiences. Um, so district court was an initial appointment.

CLAYTON: And I ran.

ARD: And then you ran for family court?

CLAYTON: No, I ran for district.

ARD: Oh, you ran for district court.

CLAYTON: Um-hm. Because at that--yeah, I ran for district court, although by the time I ran for my district court seat, I was appointed to family court. Now, in those days, before the court became a constitutional court, family court, that is, they would have district judges rotate, and circuit judges rotate in and out of family court. So, when one of the district court judges decided they wanted to come back to district court, and leave family court, I applied, the chief justice would make that decision, I did not get the 00:38:00appointment initially. Then the judge who did get the appointment decided that he didn't want to do that anymore, and so he came back to district court, then I applied again, and was given the appointment. And so, by the time I um, as I said, won my district court seat, I was already in family court. And then, um, I was serving in family court, which I served another two years, when the circuit court seat became available. And again, that was really people encouraging me to go for it. Um, which I did, and I got that appointment. Then, and my election right after that was unopposed, so then um, I was there and had uh, an election with opposition in 2006.

ARD: And was that your first uh, election with opposition?

CLAYTON: No, because I had opposition in 1998 also.

ARD: Okay. Okay. And tell me a little bit about the campaign process for you. How did you learn to do the campaigning?

CLAYTON: Well the good part was, for me, by having that appointment in 1996, 00:39:00the next election was in 1998, so I had time then to figure out who--what, what I should be doing, and who I should be talking to, and how to make the contacts. And I did those things during that time period.

ARD: Okay.

CLAYTON: And then, as, as Bill McAnulty would tell me from time to time, the, the best way to, um, retain your seat is to do a good job while you're in your seat, and that you should not let the campaigning overtake your, your responsibilities on the job. So, you know, I continued obviously to do my work. Um, on the bench too. So, um, that's--but it was that time, giving--having that much time to get ready for the 1998 election was a big help to me. Although the person who ran against me in '98 was also uh, was a really good campaigner, uh, raised more money than I did. And um, you know, was--was very active on the campaign trail. Because she knew what to do, too. But anyway, 00:40:00but I was able to win that election, and then, uh, the next election cycle for me would have been in 2002, and that's--by that time I had been in the circuit court about two years, and that was unopposed for me, 2006, I drew opposition. And, um, so that was my next contested election.

ARD: Okay. Well, congratulations on winning all those contested elections.

CLAYTON: Thank you. Thank you. I just have one more I'm facing right now.

ARD: And I have faith. (laughs).

CLAYTON: Thank you, thank you.

ARD: Um, what has been the most interesting experience about serving on all of those different levels of court?

CLAYTON: I think the, the most interesting thing is that each--you can see, clearly see the role and the need for each of those courts. Um, you know, a-again district court is not viewed as the most complicated legally, but when you think about the number of people that you're dealing with, you think about 00:41:00how you're affecting their life immediately because of the fact you--those are the judges setting bonds. Um, you know, uh, and those decisions, whether or not to initially have someone locked up or not is pretty critical, to obviously to both the safety of the community, as well as the lives of the persons affected. Uh, you, you understand how important that role is, as someone that, uh, can--can function in that environment. Um, and then in family court, family court's just incredibly hectic. It's very hectic, it's very emotional, it's exhaustion. It's exhausting. And so, but again, you sort of--you really understand how this affects people's lives. And although I, I know that many people associate family court with divorces, the most critical cases, I, I believe, in family court, are the dependency, neglect, and abuse cases, uh, involving children. Because those are cases where the judge is making and--an 00:42:00very immediate decision, whether or not to remove a child based on very little information. Because it hasn't all played out yet. And whether you choose to remove a child or you don't, is--is critical. And even if you choose to remove the child because you know the child, or feel that the child is in danger, doesn't make it any easier. Because that child still often doesn't want to leave what's familiar to go someplace unknown. And if you think about how little control the child has at all, I mean you're talking about children who go to school, and then CPS [child protective services] comes in and tells them you're not going home, you need to come with me, and I don't know you, and you need to live someplace that I can't tell you where exactly it's going to be, and for how long, you know, maybe you can, or maybe you can't. But, um, that's--that's a lot of responsibility.

ARD: That is. And what about the circuit level? I mean--

CLAYTON: I just decided again to, to move, because the opportunity existed, uh, when a vacancy occurred. You know, it's funny, with each of those courts, I 00:43:00never was seeking to move. I mean, that was not my ideal world, when this--I'll do this, I'll do that, I just took advantage when the opportunity arose, and I wanted to do circuit court because I wanted to have some experiences with jury trials, and I also felt that because of the uh, responsibilities you have, for example, in the criminal dockets, set-setting parameters for, uh, ah, probation, you can make a difference if you could make the right decisions, hopefully, with people, in terms of how to empower them to change their lives, to give them some assistance with that. Um, and also, you know, circuit court is just incredibly interesting because you go one minute from--from criminal cases to a medical malpractice case. And then you go to, you know, automobile accident case. And then you go to employment discrimination case. I mean, it's just everything. And so, I sort of liked that variety.

ARD: You seem to, uh, hone in on those positions that let you do a variety of things.

CLAYTON: I, I prefer a variety.

ARD: What has been one of the most memorable cases that you've presided over as a judge? And if you want to talk about one at each level, that would be wonderful.

CLAYTON: Um, you know, this is, uh, interesting from district court. This was a, you know, district court judges do night court. And night court, if you've ever attended it, is pretty--at least comes off a lot like a cattle call. You have a lot of people in there, and you just, sometimes disposing of cases very quickly, or passing them to a, a date in day court. And so this was really nothing that I had--that I did particularly, but I found it interesting. I was doing night court one night, and in the call to have everybody come up to the bench, this young man came up, and he just, you know, he plead not guilty but he was very, uh, he was very respectful. He was very, um, it was "yes, sir" to the 00:45:00prosecutor, "no, ma'am" to me, or whatever it was. But he was just very respectful, and seemed to be um, focused. So the prosecutor said, "Judge, I'd like to call this case back if I can, and have him take a seat over there." Well, a seat over there usually means you're going to jail. But anyway, and I didn't know what he--what he wanted to do. But um, uh, I would--I said, "okay, I'll call it back." We finished the docket, and then he called that case back up, and he said uh, "Judge, I will, the state moves to dismiss this case." And I said, "Really? Why would you dismiss it?" He said, "Well because"--and, in, it was obviously it wasn't life and death in traffic court, night traffic court, but he said, "because this young man was very respectful, he obviously has been uh, taught to respect authority, and I don't see that we would gain anything by prosecuting him in this case." So I dismissed it, because it's, in the first 00:46:00place, it's always up to the prosecutor to move for dismissal, not the court. And so I did, and I thought this was very interesting, because the prosecutor at that time was someone who was not viewed also as a warm and fuzzy. But he really appreciated this guy's attitude. And I just thought that was interesting. Now of course there have been more cases that in some way were more important, and more memorable. But I just sort of liked that notion that, you know, you don't have to get your pound of flesh out for everything, you know? So, that was--that was one of the cases. And another case in district court though that was troubling was a case involving a charge of first degree rape. And district court only handles felonies to the extent of the probable cause hearing to determine whether or not they go to circuit court. Because district court doesn't deal with felonies. And in this particular case the prosecutor and the attorney conferenced the case, and they came out, and the prosecutor wanted to drop the charges to misdemeanor charges. I said, "I don't 00:47:00understand why you're dropping it to misdemeanor charges." And he said, "Well yeah, the victim doesn't want to testify, uh, it will be hard to make this case without her, but we have bargained to um, for this, so there will be at least some punishment." And so, anyway, the defendant comes before me, and I can sort of see why. This was really a very menacing, evil looking person. And apparently even in the conference room, with security in place, the attorneys in place, he was threatening. He was threatening to the victim, and he was literally almost threatening to the, to the prosecutor. And they said that they just didn't think that they could make it, and that she would not survive the--obviously maybe a little hyperbole, but wouldn't survive a trial, it would be too much for her. And um, anyway. So, I mean, uh, I agreed to amend the charges, and take a plea on those amended charges. So that was--that was very 00:48:00troubling. When I saw the attorney after the client had entered the plea, and sentencing had occurred, uh, he said, "You know, I would just tell you, if you ever see this guy approaching you, you need to go the other way. This was the most frightening client I've ever had. And I think he is without any remorse, or any heart." So, that--that made an impression too. Um, you know, and family court, there are just tons of, of stories. You know, and--and the ones that stick with you really are, uh, the ones that involve the abuse of the children. Children who, I remember one little boy, his mother had decided to punish him by putting a hot iron on his face. And so he had the scorch marks from the iron and all. And those things, just very, just difficult, you know? Um, and--and some divorce cases where you see parties just needlessly um, stretching out the 00:49:00litigation, no reason to do that. You know, and people would say to me sometimes, well it takes so long in family court, um, divorce cases. I said, it takes as long as each of you or both of you are unreasonable. It can be over in a minute if you would just focus on the fact that you want--the result is you want to get divorced, and you want to be divorced soon. You know? And so, um, those cases stick out too. And then circuit, general circuit I guess I should call it, since family court is a circuit court. Um, you know, um, very--I think the medical malpractice cases stand out for me. First because I feel like I just learned a lot. And um, and just it was very interesting, and the quality of the, uh, representation in those cases was really good, usually. And uh--and obviously, the trials where uh, murder, whatever, those um, you know, or--or kind of, not really technically a gang, but sort of uh, gang-like activity, um, 00:50:00with people just jump in and go on a crime spree with somebody, because somebody literally invited them to get in the car. So, those, all those cases stick out.

ARD: Well thank you for that. What does it mean to you to be the first African-American female in Kentucky to serve as a circuit court judge, and court of appeals judge?

CLAYTON: Well, you know, it's, on the one hand, it's um, it's a nice recognition, on the other hand it's pretty sad, you know? Uh, I came to the circuit court in the year 2000. I don't know why uh, I should have been the first. You know, court of appeals was in 2007. Again, you know, it's sort of sad that, you know, you'd be the first. So, on one hand it's um, has some, I think, um, maybe honor attached to it. On the other hand, I think it's just a reflection of the um, of our society.

ARD: Thank you. What type of community activities are you involved in?

CLAYTON: Well I'm on the board of a few organizations now. Uh, Norton Healthcare Foundation, and of course any case involving Norton's, if it comes before me, I recuse on all those cases, by the way. Um, a group called Summer Bridge, which provides uh, educational opportunity for at-risk middle school students, and they've been really successful in both raising their, uh, test scores, as well as placing them sometimes in private schools with really good programs, and getting scholarships for them. Or putting them in contact with those schools, so schools know what they can do. Um, and they have a summer enrichment program where that's the focus. But during the school year, they also offer some uh, other tutoring services. Um, let's see. And that may be 00:52:00all now. So I think maybe now, that may be the only two I think about. But previously, I mean not very long ago, I was on the board of Coalition for the Homeless. I've been on the housing partnership, uh, have been on the visual arts board, I don't know, I don't think I ever knew anything about visual arts. Um, so, I used to be on the board of the now of the now, uh, defunct YWCA [Young Women's Christian Association], which is now the Center for Women and Families. I was on their board for several years. So, and then on vary--various uh, bar association, uh, committees, especially for the--the KBA [Kentucky Bar Association] convention and CLE [Continuing Legal Education] committee, and that kind of thing.

ARD: Okay. Thank you, that's a lot of activity.

CLAYTON: I guess, sometimes it got a little hectic. Yeah.

ARD: (laughter) Would it surprise you to hear that the number of African-Americans in the legal field has remained relatively unchanged?

CLAYTON: Um, no. I don't know what the numbers are, do you? What are they, do 00:53:00you know?

ARD: I think Erika knows those numbers better than I. Um, Erica Bindner-Wooten is with us today, and she is going to go on record for a moment.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: I don't know the numbers exactly, in terms of uh, lawyers. I believe it's hovered around two percent in Kentucky for as long as most of us can remember. But the biggest statistic that we looked at in researching this was law school, um, admissions. And when Judge Benjamin Shobe entered law school in the fifties in Michigan, um, four percent of his interning class were African-American. And when we pulled statistics in 2012, four percent of the entire population at the University of Louisville's law school and Chase Law School in Northern Kentucky was around four percent.

CLAYTON: Yeah. You know, and I'm not really surprised to hear that. I didn't know the numbers, but I've often felt the only thing we were ever doing was exchanging bodies. We're not making any real progress. And either--even the 00:54:00number of African-American judges in Kentucky, I think there are nine, is that what it was, currently?

ARD: There are fourteen current--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --living--

ARD: --living.

CLAYTON: Yeah, but not serving--

ARD: --but nine sitting. Nine sitting. Yes.

CLAYTON: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean that's not really any real difference than what it's been before. I mean, when I first started, uh, Judge McAnulty was on the bench. Judge Shobe had just retired a year or so before that. Uh, we had Judge Charles Anderson, at one point Charles Anderson, Ben Shobe, and McAnulty I think served. That was three. That's what we have now. You know? I mean, it's--then you had Ernie Jasmine. So I mean, and, and, and then uh, uh Janice Martin and Toni Stringer. So we really have not changed the--the playing field.

ARD: And um, do you have any recommendations for making changes on the playing field?

CLAYTON: Well I think obviously, it starts with law school. And yeah, it's always interesting to me how law schools--I'm not just singling out U of L, but 00:55:00so often you get their materials, and the number of students of color that they will sprinkle throughout their program would make you think they have tons. And they don't, of course. So, uh, it's a somewhat, I think, frankly, a little bit of deception there. Um, so I think it first starts there. Now I know the law school's been involved with the Central High School law and government program. But I think it really even starts before that. Uh, in terms of really encouraging people to--to serve. Uh, and to go to law school, frankly. So, you have some of that, um, I think needs changed at that spot. And, you know, some things are just difficult to do. I mean running for judge requires um, you to try to have the connections and have the money. And with, you know, because of, of--really, I think because of the history of segregation, and the lack of job opportunities, um, we don't have the same kind of wealth within the black 00:56:00community that maybe would support us. Not to say other communities wouldn't. But, I mean I'm just saying, we're not coming from a position that we have family wealth. We may have good jobs, but we don't have family wealth. So, you don't--you don't have some of that. Um, so I--I think changing it, maybe as early as uh, well I think from--from our standpoint, you just, you do it from the very beginning. I mean, as a little kid, uh, but I think certainly, high school's good. But I think the problem sometimes is, is that if you're not sort of on that track, then maybe you're not being encouraged to take other classes that may be more difficult. You know? And, and everything now, too, seems to me, and maybe this is just anecdotal, that um, there's--there's grade inflation. And so you have people who have As in certain subjects, but they don't mean anything. They're not really equipped. And we don't, apparently, you know, 00:57:00people don't want to give people Cs. Which would be perfectly fine, I mean if you really were doing a lot of work, a C would be fine for--depending on the subject. I know I was always grateful when I got a C in math. I was like, okay, I can live with this. But, um, you know, we don't do that anymore. So everyone has, you know, high GPAs, or so many people do, but you--what does that mean?

ARD: That's a very interesting point. Thank you for bringing that up.

CLAYTON: Yeah.

ARD: Um, I think that your ideas are very helpful.

CLAYTON: Well, as I say, I just think that people ought--people ought to be encouraged, and I know this is not what our society does, but people should be encouraged to fail a little bit. Because truthfully, I--I think for most of us, when we get something that we may have been working for, I'm not going to say we didn't work for it, didn't deserve it, but we often can't quite remember what we did to do this. Whereas if you really blow something, you really can remember everything you did. And--and I think that's helpful, and I think it's okay for 00:58:00a student to take very challenging classes in high school or whatever--excuse me--even risking that they will not make an A or a B.

ARD: Very good. If you were speaking to a younger version of yourself, what advice would you give?

CLAYTON: Well the younger version of myself, I probably would tell them to chill out. But, um, you know, I usually, and I do speak to younger crowds frequently. And usually, what I tell them is that there will always be people who are smarter than you, but not always that many people who are willing to outwork you. And I think that preparation and that work is um, more critical than maybe your uh, native intelligence, you know? Because you know, you could be as smart as you want to be, but if you're not willing to prepare for it, it probably is not really going anywhere. And one of the first cases I had when I 00:59:00was in private practice was a--a trial involving, uh, faulty construction work. We had this--and I had never done depositions, I did them, I didn't do that very well either then. But when I finally started to do them, because I sometimes was working my way through the errors that I was making, um, but I kept working on it, and working on it. and I was going against a very experienced attorney. And at the end of the trial, we prevailed. And he said to me, he said, "Congratulations." He said, "I knew you were inexperienced, I didn't expect you to work that hard." And I felt like, well, that's the only way I could have possibly ever prevailed. I mean, other than--some days you're just stuck with a bad set of facts, and you're going to--the best you can hope for is not a horrible outcome. But a relatively visible outcome. But uh, I felt like it was the preparation. And in the, which means you have to acknowledge that you don't know what you're doing. Because if you really fool yourself into thinking that 01:00:00you do, then you're not helping. Not helping your client, you're not helping yourself. It's just really better just to say I don't know what to do with this. Because then I also think it makes you reach out for help.

ARD: Very good. Well is there anything you want to talk about that we have not hit upon yet?

CLAYTON: I don't think so. I think um, nothing's coming to mind that I really would want to or need to bring up.

ARD: Okay, well thank you so much for your time.

CLAYTON: You're welcome.

[End of interview.]