Interview with Jerry D. Crosby, April 4, 2014

ARD: Today is April 4th, 2004. My name is Constance Ard, and I am here with Judge Jerry Crosby at the Oldham County Fiscal Court, and we are, uh, interviewing Judge Crosby as a part of the Legacy of African American Judges in Kentucky Project. Thank you for, uh, taking time to meet with us, Judge Crosby.

CROSBY: Oh, you're welcome.

ARD: Uh, we're going to begin just by asking you when and where you were born.

CROSBY: Okay. Uh, pretty simple, I was born July 26th, 1968, in Nashville, Tennessee, to, uh--my father is Jerry D. Crosby, and my mother is Dena (??) Crosby. My father was a professor at Tennessee State at the time, and they lived in Nashville, Tennessee, uh. That's where I was born.

ARD: And, uh, did you grow up in Nashville or--

CROSBY: I did not grow up in Nashville. Soon after--my dad was a professor, uh, in education, so soon after I was born we moved to Gary, Indiana. Uh, we stayed in Gary, Indiana, for just a couple years until I was five. When I was five, my father got a job, a position, at the University of Louisville in the edu--department of education, and we moved to downtown Louisville, uh, for a brief period of time while our house here in Oldham County was built.

ARD: Very nice. Tell us about growing up in Oldham County.

CROSBY: Uh, a little bit--well, Oldham County at the time was a--was a much more rural commu--community than it is now. Now, Oldham County, uh, with population surges that took place in the seventies as well as more recently--Oldham County has become more of a suburb of Louisville. But the time we moved here in the early 1970s, 1973 or '74, um, Oldham County was very much a very rural community, and there were very few subdivisions at that time. We 00:02:00moved into a subdivision that was very close to the Jefferson County line within a mile and a half of the Jefferson County line, and we lived in a subdivision that was middle class, um, not upper-middle class, probably just straight middle class, a subdivision. Uh, we were fortunate enough--my dad was fortunate enough that he could afford at that time to build a house, and so we built a house, and I lived--Oldham County for the most part was still, uh, predominately white, as it is now. I don't know exactly what the percentages are from the last census, but I would say at the time that we moved here Oldham County's population was around 12,000 to 15,000, and, of that, African Americans maybe made up maybe three percent of the population, and I would say that it's not too different now. Uh, but in our subdivision, there were several other African American 00:03:00families, uh, that lived close by, and all of the kids that lived exactly where we were, we were all virtually the same ages, and our--my bro--my sisters and my next-door neighbors and the neighbors up the street, we all played together. And, uh, so it was a--although, uh, the white families certainly outnumbered the number of African American families that were in that--in that subdivision and particularly in the area of the subdivision where we lived, uh, we all played together. Nobody knew anything different. I mean, we were all just friends. And, uh, however, starting school was an entirely different thing. And when I started school, pretty much in each of my classes I en--I was the only black kid. I do remember a few other black students that went to my elementary school. There weren't many that--that were in my grade, let alone the whole 00:04:00school. Uh, I do remember some, but they weren't--they didn't live near me, and they weren't in my--in my normal circle, so they--it wasn't like we were--we became friends or anything like that. I already had my other friends that I--that I had grown up with through, uh, kindergarten and elementary school and things of that nature. Oldham County is a great place. I can't--I--back here, I live here for a reason, and that's because, after being away, um, in college and then also being away in law school, I wanted to come back home, and this is home for me. It's comfortable here. I love it here. Um, it does have its issues. When we first moved here in the seventies, Oldham County was experiencing a population growth basically from what they described as, you know, white flight. It was, um--the initial population growth of Oldham County was due to a number of white families that were leaving Jefferson County because bussing had started in Jefferson County, and they were moving out to Oldham County so that they 00:05:00wouldn't be--they wouldn't have to be, uh, bussed. Kids wouldn't have to be bussed to schools. And, um--and part of that led to, I believe, a lot of resentment for some of, um, the families that lived here. Now, I personally didn't experience any blatant racism myself, but still, at the same time, when you're placing a black kid into a predominately white school there is always some stereotypes that go along with that and--and prejudices that go along with that as well. I can honestly say that I--not all the time, but a lot of the time I felt like I was on a--on my own little island out there, and, uh, because my dad was a professor, he taught me at home as well as going to school. I always worked at least one grade ahead. I was not in the classes with other 00:06:00African American students, so I was in--I was always in classes with--with, um, almost all white students, and that's--those are the people that ended up becoming my friends. So I was a little bit ostracized because of being the only black kid in predominately white classes and then also ostracized because the black kids didn't associate with me because I wasn't in their group. I wasn't with them, and, um--so it was a little--it was, uh, interesting. I had a, um--I learned to adapt and cope quickly and learned how to get along with people really quickly and, um, to this day the people that were my friends in the sixth grade are still my best friends here today, and, um, so--

ARD: That's pretty impressive. Uh, education, obviously, was something that was important to your--to your father.

CROSBY: Um-hm.

ARD: What other values did your parents pass along to you?

CROSBY: My dad was a product of the--well, let me go back a little bit. My father was born in Nashville, Tennessee, but he left home really early. He was born--he--he basically grew up in abject poverty in Nashville and left home, moved to Detroit, Michigan, and he spent a--a large part of his teenage years in Detroit, Michigan. So there's automatically a difference between the way African Americans were treated in the North and the way they were treated in the South in--in Nashville, Tennessee. So there is--he came with that dynamic and--and that perspective. Um, and some of that was instilled, uh, up-upon me, um, taking pride in yourself. My father always said, "You're going to have to work harder than everybody else just because of the color of your skin. You're 00:08:00just going to have to be--you're just going to have to be better than them, and that's just the way it's got to be." Um, we were told as a ki--as kids growing up, my sisters and I, that, you know, drugs, alcohol was not going to be a part of your, um, of your lives. My--I--I tell this story quite often to--when I deal with juveniles that my father told me when I was eight, ten, twelve, some--something like that. Uh, my father was six-foot-three and about 250 or something and had arms like tree trunks, and he basically sat my sister, my older sister, and I down and said, "If you ever use drugs, I'll kill you and go to prison for the rest of my life. But you'll be dead, and you'll never use drugs again." And that was--that was my dad. He was a man of few--few words, but when he said something you listened. So we learned very quickly that, you know, we were going to follow the straight and narrow. We were going to push ourselves past, uh, the point where normal people would stop and say, "That's 00:09:00good enough." My mother was the same way. My mother was a housewife for the most part of my life, um, but my mother has instilled in me a sense of belonging to your community, meaning that you're going to go out, and you're going to go out, and you're going to contribute your time to various different activities. So my mother wa--is and still participates in various different things including--she's on the planning and zoning commission here in the county. She's worked for the, um, Oldham County health board. When I was in elementary school, she was doing, uh, Red Cross and was teaching first aid. She was a room mother. She--booster club president--she participated on, uh, Little League. She was Little League president and all kinds of different activities and stuff, so she's always been, um, taught to be a member of your community. Own it. And 00:10:00considering that we're one of the few black families out here, we're also important for us, from her perspective, to make sure that we show the example to other African American families that may look to us as an example. And so, yeah, she's als--excuse me. I forgot. She also served as mayor of, uh, the small city that we--that, uh, we ended up--our subdivision eventually became a Sixth Class City, and she was the mayor of the city for a period of time as well.

ARD: A strong sense of community that--

CROSBY: Yes.

ARD: --has been passed along.

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: That's very impressive. Uh, did you go to Oldham County High School or--

CROSBY: Well, at the time, in Oldham County there were several different elementary schools, and I went to Crestwood Elementary, matriculated into South Oldham Middle School, and then eventually went on to Oldham County High School. At that time, there was only one high school, so it was just two hundred--or twenty-five thousand students in one school, and my class itself made up five 00:11:00hundred--I think our graduating class was 510 or 520, but the class itself as a whole was, like, 550 students at the start, uh, so it was quite a large--quite a large class. And obviously, now there are three high schools here in Oldham County, but at the time there was just one. Um, I ended up--was senior class president as well, and I can't remember exactly how many African American students that there were in my senior class, but maybe--uh, maybe ten, not a whole lot. But it was an interesting experience.

ARD: And, um, you've already mentioned the fact that you worked ahead--

CROSBY: Um-hm.

ARD: --a year at a time, so I'm assuming you were a good student.

CROSBY: Yes.

ARD: But can you expound on that a little bit?

CROSBY: Sure. My father, I guess, learned very early that there were some talents that I had in terms of academics, so he pushed myself and pushed my 00:12:00si--my older sister quite a bit. My older sister did not--did not probably have the same, um, skills that I did, so pushing her led to probably more rebellion. For me, it was, uh, a competitive challenge to try and see how, um, intelligent that I could become against--especially against other students. And it probably had--his greatest, um, example was probably in middle school, um, tak--you know, taking academic exams and different things. I was put into programs called--we had a program for advanced students called SPREE (??), which was an extra class that you can go to, to, um, basically work on logic puzzles and things of that nature. Uh, we learned computer science before computer science was even taught, um, and a lot of--a lot of things like that. And I participated in that 00:13:00program through, uh, middle school. I took the--one of the first years that they did the Duke Talent Identification Program; I participated in that, won some type of award for math in that. And then, in high school, I took all of the advanced classes that I could. Anything that I tested into I took, particularly in--and my greatest subject, my favorite subject, was math. And probably up until I was a junior in high school--that was my favorite subject. Um, but then, you know, things happened. I still remained a great student, still graduating top ten in my class, uh, with very good SAT [Scholastic Assessment Test] scores and things of that nature. I just--I started playing basketball. I was fairly uncoordinated. I grew really fast and was quite tall by the time I started high school. I loved playing basketball, and I ended up concentrating a lot on--on getting myself better at basketball as well as 00:14:00continuing to keep my grades up. I was very fortunate. I got a scholarship to college to play basketball, to Furman University in, uh, South Carolina, and, um, it gave me the opportunity to do a couple--my--well, I'll back up a little bit. My fa--when we were trying to decide what schools to go to when I was being recruited, my father and I sat down, and he gave me some categories of, "These are the schools that you can talk to, and these are the schools that you can't." And then, there were some things that I wanted, and so we made a list, and the schools that didn't fit into my dad's list or my list got rejected. And so we ended up with only about five schools that were left, and Furman was one of them. And so I ended up going there and had--had a great time.

ARD: And, um, tell us a little bit about that experience, going on a basketball scholarship, um, and kind of how your college career came to be.

CROSBY: Sure. Um, I was not a offensive juggernaut of a basketball player by any stretch of the imagination. Uh, my father was insistent that if I was going to go to college to play basketball that I would have to sign during the early signing period so that I can concentrate the rest of the year on school, so I did, uh, and I chose Furman University and--and went there to play. Uh, first thing I noticed is that when you get on campus people think that, because you're a basketball player or an athlete of any sort, that you're somehow--a box of rocks. And that certainly wasn't my case, and my goal as soon as I touched down on campus was to make sure that that was, um--that--that everybody understood that, that I was there for school. Basketball was secondary. Getting my education and graduating was--was primary. My father made that clear during the recruiting visits, and, in fact, the--the famous story that we have is that when 00:16:00Furman came to talk to my family, my dad was in the living room, and he first asked them questions about academics. And when that questions--when those questions were answered, my dad got up and left the room. He didn't care about basketball. He just wanted to make sure I was going to a good school, which he already knew Furman was. Um, my career at Furman had its ups and downs. Um, I--I played. There were--sometimes I played a lot. Sometimes, I played a little, and, um, it didn't really concern me a whole lot, uh, because I was there about school. My father died during my soph--at the end of my sophomore year of a heart attack. And when I came home, I debated about whether or not I would go back, but my parents had instilled in me this "You don't ever quit anything" type of attitude. So I went back and, uh, finished up my last two 00:17:00years, and, uh, it was a good experience. I--I probably did not enjoy playing basketball as much as I thought I would in college, but it still offered me an opportunity to, um, be on my own for the first time, to learn how to handle myself in difficult situations, to grow up and become a man, to, um--and it also gave me an opportunity to travel, I mean, with my basketball team. We went to London, England, one year. We went to Hawaii one year. Uh, we had an opportunity to play some of the best teams in the country and play against guys that ended up playing pro--professional basketball, and, um, it afforded me, uh, an incredible education that I didn't have to pay for.

ARD: And what did you study?

CROSBY: Um, I ended up studying economics, but I didn't study economics because I was interested in, uh, economics. I studied economics because, when I originally went to school, I thought that I was going to be a computer science and business double major. And I got into the computer science classes, and I 00:18:00realized that, "You know what? I'm really not that interested in computers." And, uh, it just wasn't--it just wasn't what I thought it was going to be, so--but I had already taken a number of classes in the business department, so I didn't want to leave out of there. And so I looked and said, you know, "What else can I do?" And I could apply all the classes that I had taken to my economics degree, and that's what I did, and it also afforded me an opportunity to take some other classes, so I studied everything from Chinese history to--I don't know. I took, um, uh, physics and some other stuff while I was there, but--so I, I tried to broaden my perspective. I still graduated with a degree in economics, and, you know, that's it. I had--I had--my dad made me agree that 00:19:00I was going to--I had to graduate with at least a 3.0 GPA from college, so I--we set that as a goal, and, uh, I met the goal, so--

ARD: And how did you, um, wind your way to law school? How did you make that decision?

CROSBY: Uh, law school is really a, um--the decision to go to law school was really, strictly, I believe, by the grace of God. I did not intend to go to law school. I had no intention of even thinking about it. In fact, I had thought that I was going to be interviewing--doing some of this interviewing for consulting jobs, you know, where you basically live your life on a plane for a few years, make lots of money, and--and, you know, don't have a family or anything like that. Um, so I had set up interviews during my senior year to start doing that. A friend of mine suggested--said, "Jerry, you like to argue with everybody and play devil's advocate on everything. You ought to go to law school." I said, "Yeah, whatever." I said, "Well, maybe. We've got a free 00:20:00weekend." Obviously, with basketball, during basketball season, your weekends are taken up, but we had a weekend where I could ask for permission from my coaches to sit for the LSAT [Law School Admission Test], and I did. Uh, I only sent my scores to one school, had not really int--because I did not intend to go. Um, it was just something I was doing to say, "Well, maybe, you know--maybe if something happens I'll--I'll go." Um, the--my mother came down for senior night for basketball, uh, in late--in February. She came down. She had two letters in her purse. She--I went to go pick her up at her hotel room to take her to the arena for our game, and, um, she said, "There's letters in my purse. Go open them up." The first letter said, "Congratulations; you've been accepted to the University of Kentucky," which was the only school that I had applied to. And the only reason why I applied to it was because I would be coming home, but I would not be all the way home. Um, I wasn't--you know, after spending four 00:21:00years basically away, I did not want to--you know, I just wanted to remain some--some sense of independence. So that's the only school I applied to, and the second letter opened up and said, "Congratulations. Not only are you admitted, but we're also going to give you--we're going to pay for your tuition and give you a stipend to li--to live here." I said, "Mom, I've finally got something to say for senior night." So, literally, I had nothing to say. The coach was asking, you know, "What do you want us to say?" "Just say I'm going to go to graduate school," originally. It ended up I had to ca--I had to call them up before the game to say, "Hey, look, you can now announce that I'm going to go to law school at the University of Kentucky," and that's literally how it took place.

ARD: Wow. That's impressive. So tell us a little bit about, um, the environment at the University of Kentucky while you were in law school.

CROSBY: Um, I'm not--I did not grow up a University of Kentucky fan, basketball 00:22:00fan. Obviously, I'm a basketball person, but I did not grow up a UK fan, and I'm still not to this day. But I was going to law school there, so I knew it was going to be kind of a--a weird situation for me when I went to school there. I--to be honest with you, I hated law school. I hated Lexington, and for the three years there--I was there, it was a struggle every single day, and not necessarily a struggle from the, um--from the academic standpoint. It was just a struggle because I--I did not really--I didn't ever feel comfortable in Lexington, and you would think a guy that loves basketball, um, would feel comfortable in a basketball city. But, you know, Lexington is built around, from--from in my perspective on two things, and that is horse racing and Kentucky basketball. And if you're not a lover of one of those, then there's really not a whole lot of places for you. And I'm not a--I like horse ra--I like the Kentucky Derby, but the Kentucky Derby is in Louisville. And other 00:23:00than that, horse racing is not--just not my thing, and Kentucky basketball is definitely not my thing, so it was an odd experience being there. The second thing was--is that law school is different fro--if you come from an experience where you've always been either the smartest kid or one of the smartest kids in your class, and law school takes that, all of those people that were either the smartest or among the smartest in their class, and puts them into one group of 150 people. So, now, you're not only dealing with--you're not dealing with the general, uh, population. Now, you're dealing with the top one or two percent of the population, and, uh, that's hard. And so the experience of law school was difficult for me because everything at the time, and I--I don't know how much has changed, because I don't go back to the law school at UK. But, um, 00:24:00everything is based on class ranks, and so your goal as soon as you walk in the door is to learn that you need to be in the top ten of your class or the top twenty of your class rather than, uh, concentrating on the material that you need to learn so that you can go out and practice and--and do a job. It's--it's less geared towards apprenticeship as it is towards, uh, being able to write in a certain way. And, um, because there had not been any lawyers in my family, I did not--like I said, I went on basically, you know, by God's grace. There was nobody that I could really sit down and talk to about what law school was like prior to going, so I didn't know, and, um--so it was a lot of learning experience when I got there. And so I hated it. I hated law school. But, at the same time, I realize now that it was probably the greatest three years of 00:25:00learning that I had had. Uh, for so long, my parents had basically directed my steps even--even after my father's passing when I was a sophomore in college. His, basically, program for me I followed. And when I got to law school, I got nothing. You know, I got no program to follow. I got no--no idea how I'm going to get through this, and so I had to learn on my own. I had--and I had to grow up on my own there in law school with, really, no one to consult about how you do this. Um, it--so by the time--after my first year, I finished up the second year. I worked, uh, between my first and second year at Wyatt Tarrant & Combs as a summer intern, didn't like that very much. They paid us a lot of money, but I really didn't care for the concept of being in a partnership. I don't 00:26:00deal with hierarchy very well. Um, I'm more of an independent player type of person, so that--I did not really care for that environment. I went back to school my second year. Uh, I made the Moot Court team. I participated in that, but by the end of that year I was so disenchanted with law school I ca--I took the entire summer off. I didn't clerk for anybody, didn't work at all, and basically I, um--basically had my moment of clarity, uh, spent the summer reading, going to the gym, and working out. And when I came back, I had a much better perspective, uh, for my last year of law school, and I ended up having the best year. My third year was my--my best year in terms of grades and everything, uh, but I needed that time away to find myself, and I--and I--I think I did. I spent a lot of time just working on myself, and when I came back 00:27:00I was much better for it. Um, I spent, uh--it's--I don't know what I--my class rank was because I purposely would not go and look at it. Um, they want you to go to the registrar's office and get that information so you can put it on your resume or what your final GPA--I have no clue what either one of them are because I never looked. I know that I graduated, and that's it, but I--I have no idea what my grades were when I left.

ARD: What year did you graduate?

CROSBY: I graduated law school in 1993. Um, I got lucky, because in 1993 there was a position back here at home. Judge Fritz, um, Dennis Fritz, used to be the circuit judge here--his daughter was actually in my gradua--high school graduating class--um, was basically looking for an intern--uh, not intern, a staff attorney law clerk. Uh, since the idea of going to work for one of the 00:28:00larger law--law firms was not something that I was really interested in. I didn't know exactly what I would do, uh, so I applied for that job. I came up here and interviewed for it. Judge Fritz hired me, and I ended up working for him for about two and a half years as his staff attorney law clerk. Uh, but because staff attorney law clerks don't make a whole lot of money, and everybody thinks that when you get out of law school you're going to be making $50,000 to $100,000 a year your first year out, that's clearly not the case. I made $19,000 a year working for him as a staff attorney law clerk, so I needed other money. So I also took a job working for Seven Counties Services. It's what is called a wraparound aid, which is through a program called Kentucky Impact, which is a program that deals with kids that have a diagnosis of some type of emotional disability, uh, intermittent explosive disorders or opposition defiance and things of that nature. So I got trained on that job. I took that 00:29:00job, and, uh, I did that along with my job working for Judge Fritz. And then, a friend of mine came along and said, "Hey, look, would you be interested in coaching basketball at one of the high schools?" I said yes, so I took that job as well. So, really, for a few years I worked three jobs so that I could afford to--because I ended up buying a house with some of my inheritance, bought a small house and, um--and had to pay for it, had to pay for my car, my insurance, and all that kind of stuff, so I worked three jobs to start off with, and I did that. And I worked for Judge Fritz for about two and a half years when I decided I would open up my own office.

ARD: And you're probably the first person that we've talked to that actually went into solo practice.

CROSBY: Um-hm.

ARD: Can you talk a little bit about that experience for us?

CROSBY: It's a very daunting idea to open up your own office thinking that you've got--number one, you've got to attract clients, and then you've got to 00:30:00get your clients to pay you. And then, that, whatever you make, has got to be enough so that you can afford to pay your rent and whatever equipment that you have, if you're going to have any staff, uh, to be able to pay them, and, um--and then be able to eat, you know, after that. So there's--there's a book out there. I can't remember what the name of--how to open your own law office, so I--I purchased that book. I did a lot of reading. I talked to a lot of people about how to do it. Um, I found a place that was relatively inexpensive to rent and set out to--I got a shingle. I was fortunate that the public defender's office was looking for somebody to be a--what they call a conflict counsel, which means that, when they have cases in their office that they can't represent because they represent one of the codefendants or something like that, they refer them out to a private attorney. So I got a contract from them that I 00:31:00would accept, um, conflict cases. That paid me a little bit every year, not a whole lot, but it paid me enough that I could--I knew I could make rent, uh, for the entire year, and, uh, so that's what I did. And then, I stayed with that for, uh--I did that for about four years. Um, and then, the position opened up for judge, and a friend of mine said, "You ought to go for it." I said, "All right. I guess I'll go for it. We'll see what happens."

ARD: We definitely want to talk about that experience, but, before we move on to--

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: --talking about the judgeship, can you tell us a little bit, um, maybe share a memory of a memorable case that you, uh, worked on as a lawyer?

CROSBY: One of the--to try and gain some experience, I did take on--I--I volunteered to sit second chair for somebody on a case out in Shelby County because I wanted to get--most attorneys don't get trial experience. Now, I had 00:32:00trial experience because I worked for Judge Fritz and I sat through a number of trials, but most attorneys, when they're in practice, they rarely ever have a case that actually goes to trial, so to get trial experience you--is--it's hard to get. So I wanted to get some trial experience, so I volunteered on a case that the public defenders had over in Shelby County and, um, a murder case over there that had--it was a really old murder case, because the defendant had fled the area for some period of time and had recently been brought back, uh, to Shelby County. So I ended up sitting second chair and had to prepare for that, but it was all voluntary, so I wasn't getting paid to do it, um, but I was just doing it for the experience. We ended up successfully getting that case resolved on the day of trial after, um, I had to make some arguments to the judge to--for the--so that the commonwealth would, um, not re--not, uh, rescind 00:33:00the offer that they had previously made that our client decided he wanted to take. It was--took a lot of, um, negotiation skills between the lead counsel, myself, the judge, and the prosecutor on that--on that particular day, but it was interesting, an interesting case, a lot of stuff that I had to research, to prepare, all for--it ended up being for naught, because the case ended up being resolved.

ARD: Um, that's really an interesting perspective to--to volunteer as a second chair for a public defender's office to get trial experience and then not getting it. That--that's pretty unique. But let's go ahead and talk a little bit about your judgeship.

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: You--you, um, have obviously been guided in your legal career by friends whispering in your ear.

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: So, uh, your friends said, "There's a judge position open. Why don't you apply for it?" And--

CROSBY: Well, sure. Basically, the way it came down, we had three judges here 00:34:00in Oldham Co--Oldham, Henry, and Trimble County, because we--we covered three counties. Um, one of the district court judges was moving up to a newly created circuit judge position, so that--it was going to leave a vacancy in the district court. Uh, a friend of mine said, "You ought to put your name for that and just see what happens." I said--I went and talked to my wife about it. Uh, we didn't have children at the time, so it was the perfect opportunity. You can do those things when you don't have little ones running around, so we said we would--we would do it, and so we did it. Um, I had no idea how to run a campaign. I had never thought about it before. It wasn't something, uh, that I had thought that I may eventually do. It just, you know, is one of those things that kind of happens. Uh, so I did all the research that I could do, reading books, talking to people about how you go about this. It was going to be a short election because it was a midterm election, and the position--the vacancy 00:35:00did not come up until, I believe, August, so we only had to campaign from August until November. So it was a very short time period, and there were eight other people in the race, or seven other people--excuse me--eight total, seven people--eight other people in the race, all of them with much more experience than I had, all of them much older than I was, because I was only thirty-two at the time. And we were fortunate. We--we--we took off running. Uh, one of my opponents at the time was our current circuit judge, Judge Conrad, and, uh, we just developed an idea on what our campaign would be. Um, we developed a theme. My wife and I developed a theme, and our theme was, um, "community, character, and commitment." And then, we also had a running theme of "head and shoulders above the rest," because, at six-foot-seven, I'm pretty much taller than anybody else. So it worked. At some point in time, in September of that year, uh, we 00:36:00did not anticipate the governor would make an appointment, but Governor [Paul E.] Patton did. Some people got to Governor Patton, and I ended up being one of the three names that went to the Governor's office, and the Governor appointed me to serve for the--to complete the vacancy, which means that I could now run as the incumbent rather than as, uh, just one of eight other people that were seeking that position. Uh, so I--I accepted the appointment, I think, on September tenth and, uh, took the oath on September twentieth and was able to run as the incumbent. I ended up winning. Because there were so many people in the election, it wasn't a majority win, but it--I had substantially more votes than anybody else, and so ended up, uh--was in the position, and I've been here 00:37:00ever since.

ARD: And in your other campaigns, have you been opposed?

CROSBY: Only in one other campaign. After--that was a two-year--the vacancy on that first election was two years, so for two years after that, obviously, I was on the ballot again, didn't have any opposition, didn't have any opposition the next time. I had opposition four years ago, the first time, and it was a person that I didn't know, doesn't really practice around here for the most part, that I had never even seen in court before. Um, but we won that election, and this time around I don't have any opposition.

ARD: Um, that first campaign is obviously the one that was the most heavily contested--

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: --campaign and your first one.

CROSBY: Um-hm.

ARD: And you alluded to the fact that your wife helped you.

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: Uh, was there anyone else helping you, or did the two of you just kind of create the campaign and run with it on your own?

CROSBY: No, we--we, um--reading the books on how to do this, you have to set up a campaign team, because you can't do it all on your own. So I have a very good friend, one of my--that I talked about earlier--one of my middle school friends is still one of my best friends today. He was my campaign manager, and he was the guy that would push me to say, "No, you need to go here today. I know you're tired, but yo--we're--we're going." And, um, so he was a great influence on me. My mother, of course, is still here, and she's very well known in the community, uh, because of all the different things that she volunteers for and participates in. Uh, she was a great help, and then I got a lot of help from a lot of people that are in here in the community that, you know--that I grew--that I grew up with through the school system. Uh, my former principal in high school who ended up becoming the--the superintendent of the public schools, who had retired from that position, was a great help to me and did a lot of things, uh, for me and my campaign, and I got a lot of help from a lot of people 00:39:00that were here.

ARD: That's--

CROSBY: So it was a--it was a--it was a group effort from a lot of different people that helped me out. I--I--I take no credit for all of it. It was, uh, a lot of--lot of help from a lot of people.

ARD: And do you have the same advisors on current campaigns or--

CROSBY: Um, I still ha--I still--obviously, my wife, and my, um, my best friend is still around, and I've recruited a few other people. Some people are--moved on to other positions, but, at the same time, those are the people that I--I still consult on--on those type of things. Yeah, they're still around.

ARD: Um, this is a--this is a hard question to ask sometimes, and especially considering the community that you serve in, but do you feel that race has any--has had any kind of impact on your campaigns?

CROSBY: Uh, yes.

ARD: Okay.

CROSBY: Um-hm. I do thi--think it has. There are still segments of our communities, uh, that would probably be opposed to--just simply because of the 00:40:00color of my skin--to, uh, the position that I currently serve in. And I--there's no way I'm going to win those people over, and so I don't make any attempt to. Uh, what I do do and what I campaign on and the way I work is that I--I work my rear-end off every single day. I make sure people know that I'm out in the community and around regardless of if it's a campaign year or not. I'm out. I'm doing stuff. I'm constantly volunteering for different things or serving on panels or just shopping at various different places. I'm out and around, so people have become accustomed to my face over the course of time and over the course of years, and it's, um--and I've--I would like to believe that people respect the job that I do. And so, here, recently, I don't--I don't think it really plays any, uh--any real role in, um, the people that will vote 00:41:00for me, because the people that still harbor those prejudices are probably not going to the polls anyways. Um, but in the last campaign, I did--I did--when I was opposed four years ago, I did--there were issues in regard to that, no question about it. But, um, you know, we ended up being successful and won by a large enough margin that I--that, um, those elements of the community are probably marginalized.

ARD: Congratulations on that. Let's talk a little bit about, um, maybe one--one or two of the cases that have really stood out to you during your career as a judge.

CROSBY: I've had--when you--when you're in district court, like, you've talked to Judge Stevens and Judge Edwards, both friends of mine, and--and Judge Edwards was in law school with me. He and his wife were in law school with me. Um, they're dealing with circuit court cases, and so, of all the cases that you see, 00:42:00uh, district court, we see about ninety-six percent of the cases that come through, so we see a lot more stuff, a lot more crazy things that take place, um, here in district court. Plus, we do the preliminary hearings for many of those circuit court cases before they reach the grand jury, so I've seen--I--I just can't tell you how many crazy things I've seen. Recently, we had a--we had a--a couple years ago, we had a jury trial on a guy that was dis--basically, he had been in a relationship with another woman that was not his wife. Um, that relationship came to an end when his other woman found out about his wife, that he had really not divorced his wife, and she broke up with him even though they 00:43:00were building a house together in Tennessee. Uh, she broke up with him. There was some animosity, I guess, from his perspective towards his, uh, now ex-lover. He took that out by making photographs of some--what are--what we would describe as porno--pornographic pictures that she had sent to him of herself, made copies of those, and decided to go out and distribute those up and down Highway 42, where she lives. Uh, I didn't know how the jury would take that case. They ended up picking a jury. We have six-person juries here in district court, and it was--he was charged with distribution of pornography, and I didn't know how the jury would take it. One of the interesting things was--is that the defendant and the commonwealth struck all the men from the jury panel, so we ended up with a jury of all women. And I called the attorneys to the bench, and 00:44:00there was a case called Batson that we all have to be mindful of. And I was like, "Are you sure this is the panel that you want?" and, uh, both parties said yes, so we went forward. And the jury ended up convicting him. I don't know if he thought that he was going to get some kind of sympathy from an all-female jury because of the nature of the photos that she had taken of herself and had sent to him, but, regardless, they convicted him and gave him the maximum. Uh, and I ended up--I didn't make him serve the entire time. I make him--I made him serve a portion of it, um, probated the rest, but I also made him do public service work in lieu of jail time in a women's homeless shelter. He was from out of state, but I made him do that as well to give him per--some perspective on how abusive he was towards the--you know, his former lover, um, and so that 00:45:00he would have to be in a situation where he was going to have to deal with other women that were in that--that situation. Um, I don't know. We've had a number of different cases that stand out. I'm trying to think of another one that--that really stands out. We had an interesting one where we had a, a woman that was a cat and dog hoarder and ended up with, I want to say, 110 dogs and cats living in her house, and she lived in the house with them. And that case was tried. She ended up with restitution to the county for removal and housing of those animals somewhere in the nature of about $32,000, something like that. Um, uh, we--uh, like I said, anything--anything and everything comes through district court, and I've done everything from preliminary hearings on murders and rapes to the most ridiculous, um, small-claims cases that you can imagine. 00:46:00I'll tell you one we--we had--I think it was last year. It could have been the year before. And I refer to this guy as the world's dumbest criminal, but it ended up making the news through--you know how the grapevine is--through Facebook and all this other kind of stuff that takes place. But we had this guy that showed up for court on a domestic case, an assault four case, and he was sitting in the back of the courtroom. And the commonwealth, after talking to the alleged victim--the alleged victim didn't want to participate, didn't want to go forward, so the commonwealth was going to dismiss it, but they wanted a concession from the defendant, meaning that they wanted him to stipulate that there was probable cause for the arrest, meaning that--so that he would not be able to sue the police department for arresting him, and then they were going to dismiss it. So we called him up to the bench, and we asked him, "Do you wish to 00:47:00stipulate probable cause?" He was unrepresented. He said, "I don't know what that means," so I have to explain to him what "probable cause" means and also explain to him that, "Basically, the commonwealth is telling you--putting you in a situation where you would not be able to sue the police department for false arrest because you're stipulating that there was a reason to arrest you." And he says, "I'm not saying that. They didn't have any reason to arrest me. I'm not stipulating no probable cause." So, as soon as he says that, the commonwealth says, "We withdraw your offer." Well, because he was sitting in the back of the courtroom with the alleged victim and there was a bond condition that said no contact with the victim, and he was back--in the back of the courtroom conversing with her and talking to her. And, uh, I told the bailiffs--I said, "Well, he needs to go into custody. We need to take him back in. He's in violation of his bond conditions." So they went to go put the cuffs on him to take him over to the jail, and one of the bailiffs looks up and says, "Judge, he's already got cuffs on." I said, "Huh?" So now I'm thinking it's, you know, some kind of weird thing that was taking place the night before. 00:48:00Well, it turns out it really was a weird thing that took place the night before. He had been stopped for driving under the influence of alcohol in Jefferson County, and the officer had--was placing him under arrest, put the cuffs on him, and, uh, he ran. And because he had a passenger in the car with him that was also intoxicated--in fact, so intoxicated that he was passed out--the officer did not give chase to this particular defendant and, instead, went to go deal with the passenger that was in the car, believing that, "He's handcuffed. He'll eventually get caught anyways." And he did when he showed up for court the next day in front of me. Now, I did not notice he had a handcuff on because it was--he had managed to get one of them off somehow or another. He beat up his hand pretty good trying to get it--slide it off, and the other one he had shoved up underneath a long-sleeved shirt. So when they went to put the handcuffs on, the bailiff says, "He's already got cuffs on," so now we've got to 00:49:00figure out what happened. So we ended up finding out through the bailiffs who had contacts with Jefferson County--ended up finding out that he had been arrested for DUI and had ran. So he ended up with charges of fleeing or evading police and, uh, escape and other charges in Jefferson County, so he goes off to jail. He comes back. The commonwealth still makes him the same offer to resolve the case, and he had to stipulate probable cause. He stipulates probable cause, and our case is dismissed. He ends up getting convicted of whatever else he gets convicted in--of in Jefferson County. It makes the news because somehow or another somebody picked it up on Facebook, and so WAVE TV, Janelle MacDonald comes out here, and they're filming it when he comes back to court the next time. And I'm thinking that after the case is finally resolved, that's the end of it. Well, it's not. About three, four weeks later, uh, he shows up again in court, and I'm like, "What are you here for? You know--you 00:50:00know, we just had this conversation with you a few weeks ago. You're not supposed to be back here ever again, because you're not the most intelligent criminal there is around. You know, you don't make very good decisions." He goes, "Well, I've got a small claims case," and he is suing his best friend. And I know his best friend because his best friend played basketball when I was coaching in high school, so he's suing his best friend for the theft of or the failure to return--excuse me--a generator. And I said, "Okay, let's talk about this." And--and as I do on most every small claims case, I try to get them to resolve their disputes on their own rather than making a decision--uh, me having to hear the evidence and make a decision. So I send him out and I ask him, "You know, see if you all can work this out." They come back in, and they've got an agreement, so I sign off on the agreement. They leave, thinking that's the last time I'm going to see them again.

No. Two weeks later, they're back, and I said--and I noticed when they come 00:51:00back, they come up to the bench, and I notice that the world's dumbest criminal has a letter from the Judge Mathis Show or Judge Joe Brown Show in--in a stack of paperwork here. And I said, "Why are you back?" And he goes, "Well, I had gotten a letter from this TV show that, um--and we were going to make an appearance on the show, but they canceled our appearance after we resolved our dispute." So not only is he the world's dumbest criminal. He's the world's dumbest I-want-to-be-on-TV, uh, litigant as well. So he says, "So I'm back here again because my best friend over there has agreed that I can sue him again, this time for the failure to repay a loan." I said, "You all need to leave," and so they left, but they actually--one day, we went to lunch, and uh, my 00:52:00secretary Jennifer and some of the bailiffs. We went to lunch--and some of the clerks. We went to lunch one day at a pizza place down the road, and they had the TV on, and there he was on TV, so he made his--he made his television debut twice, once--once not by his own choosing that ended up being picked up on the wire and made national news for world's dumbest criminal, and then his, uh, second case that he ended up on TV where he wanted to be, I guess, anyways.

ARD: Well, it must be very interesting to serve in--as a judge in a community that you grew up in.

CROSBY: It is.

ARD: Um, you probably know or have some knowledge of some of the people that show up before you. Is that--does that cause problems? Is that difficult to deal with?

CROSBY: If there are people that come in front of me that are--were--that I know very well, that are friends of mine from school or something like that, obviously, I don't hear their cases, and I send them to our other district judge, Judge Wheeler. Um, but at the same time, there--when--I've been doing 00:53:00this job now almost, uh, thirteen and a half years, and so I'm into not only second generations, third generations. I'm now into, really, fourth generations, considering that when I worked for Judge Fritz I had many of the grandparents of the kids that I'm now having in court, and sometimes even their parents. So it--it's really--it's really interesting. I'm working on a case right now where--it's a name change petition, and I know both the parties, and--and I've known them because one of them is the former girlfriend of a guy that was convicted of murder, and I know the other one, the father of the child, because he probably has had--I don't know--thirty cases. He's barely thirty years of age, and he's probably had thirty cases that have come through district court at one time or another.

ARD: It's very interesting.

CROSBY: It's--it's--

ARD: Well, you have mentioned throughout the interview that you're very 00:54:00involved in the--in the community.

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: Can you talk a little bit about why that's important to you and what some of the--the current activities are that you're involved in?

CROSBY: Sure. Obviously, being involved in the commu--in the community is important to me from a number of different perspectives. Number one is that I owe it. I grew up here, and I think that this, the community, Oldham County community in particular, had a great deal of influence in shaping my life. As I said before, you know, being a tall, skinny black kid that grew up in this community, I never really faced the type of overt racism that some people would think that you would experience growing up here. Now, certainly, there were--there were times that, you know, I felt isolated, and--and at times I still do, but at the same time I've had ev--every opportunity to be successful 00:55:00because I live here. And, uh, so I always want to give back to that. I--I owe it. I owe it to the school system. I owe it to my community as a whole, so I've always wanted to be in a position that I can serve them. I think it's important to be involved in things because there are--because there are so few blacks that live in the community, I wanted to make sure that I represent a positive face and influence on my community so that if there are people that still harbor some prejudices that they see--they'll know that this is--this is the reason why other African American kids can be successful, is because, "Look at what Judge Crosby does," um, and also to give some representation to people of the community, that they--that they think that they are get--will get a fair shake if they're involved in the system. Um, obviously, statistics will show that African Americans continue to be at a much higher rate than the percentage of the population involved in criminal activity, and I think it's important to 00:56:00the African American community to understand or at least to believe that the system is going to fairly treat them, and I think I represent some of that. Additionally, it's good just to be involved from a political standpoint. If you're out serving, doing different things in the community, people see that. I don't--when I--even having to campaign four years ago, I didn't really campaign. I just went out and did what I normally do. I stepped it up a little bit, going to a few festivals and setting up, you know, uh, a booth here or there, passing out materials. But at the same time, I've never walked door to door, don't do it. I don't do any TV or radio advertising, um, and so it's good, because when I go out and I participate or serve in the community, other people see that. Other people pass that word along, that this is a person that is involved. So I do things not only here in Oldham County. I do stuff in Henry 00:57:00County, and I do stuff in Trimble County as well, and I try and be a regular participant in--in many different things. Um, so some of the things that I do now and that I have done, I've served on different boards like Metro United Way. I still serve on a board called, uh, Oldham County Community Chest, which is basically an organization where we give away money. We receive money from various different foundations including Metro United Way, and we basically give that to needy people here in the community. I serve on a board over in Henry County called, uh, Friends for Michael, which is a spinal cord injury organization, and I've served on that board, I want to say, almost ten years now. And basically, we--we raise money, and we give it to the University of Louisville. We give it to the University of Kentucky for spinal cord research, and we also do things to help people that have spinal cord injuries in our 00:58:00community. And we also do scholarships, small scholarships, but we give out scholarships to kids that are in Henry County as well. Um, in Trimble County, I'm getting ready to go serve on a heroin forum board up--up there, and I just did one here in Oldham County. And I partner with the schools on a lot of different things here and particularly in Oldham County, uh, where they'll have me come in an speak. I had kids in the courtroom last Wednesday to observe, and then I went to North Oldham High School last Friday to go talk to that same group of kids about the position that I have and also talk about social and economic justice, because they're--they're studying, um, To Kill a Mockingbird. Uh, so we're trying to give them some perspective on that, but there's a--I mean, there's a whole bunch of things that I do. I do most of it because it makes me feel good, but there's also--I understand that there is some other 00:59:00benefits than just the euphoria that I feel from doing something that's good. There's also those other benefits that I've mentioned, uh, that result from it.

ARD: Thank you for that. I--I really commend you on your community service.

CROSBY: Thanks.

ARD: You--you seem to be extremely active.

CROSBY: Well, like I said, my mother set the example. My mother still continues to serve, and she's--she'll be si--she's sixty-nine. She'll be seventy next year, and she still serves on the planning and zoning commission. She's--she does--she's no longer a mayor of her subdivision. She's moved, but she's the, um, homeowners' association president in the subdivision where she lives now. She still serves on Oldham County's health board, and there's not a day that goes by that my mother is not out of the house going somewhere, doing something, being involved in something or--or, um, caring for somebody in some kind of capacity, and that's just what she does. And I'm kind of the same way. I--there's--I need to be doing something to contribute to my community.

ARD: Do you have children?

CROSBY: Yes, I have two children.

ARD: So your mother has been a great example for you, and you're--

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: --you're being a great example for your children.

CROSBY: I try to be. I try to be. I try and volunteer as much time as I can, so whether it's coaching basketball at the YMCA. This past season, I coached sixth grade basketball at North Oldham Middle School where my son is a student, um, so whatever few talents that I have that somebody else may think that they could use or can be used to benefit children or other people in the community, I give it. As long as I've got the time, I'll do it.

ARD: Well, thank you. We're--we're getting to the wrap-up part.

CROSBY: Sure.

ARD: Um, so this question is one that is really the inspiration for the project, which is, "Would it surprise you to hear that the number of African Americans in the legal field has remained relatively unchanged?"

CROSBY: No, it doesn't surprise me.

ARD: And do you have any thoughts about why that is--that is the case?

CROSBY: Probably because it's not a field that is attractive to African 01:01:00Americans, and let me put it to you like this. I'm--I'm in this profession purely by chance, okay? You know, it's not what I set out to do. It's not what I grew up wanting to do. Um, I'm here because, literally, I got accepted to law school on--on a chance, a whim. I did not have lawyers in my family, and very few African American families--at least people that are my age, uh, forty-six--have a significant history where the legal profession has been an active por--portion--part of their lives. Uh, so there's some perspective to that. There--there--there's just not a lot. When I was going through law school, part of the reason why the University of Kentucky did what it did in terms of giving me a scholarship and--and a stipend to live was because the class in front of me, out of 150, 170 students, there was only going to be one 01:02:00graduating African American student. There were three people in the--three African Americans in the cla--African Americans in that class. Two of them were not going to graduate on time, so they were attempting to bring in as many African American students as possible. Uh, in my class alone, I want to say that they--and I'm not sure they gave all of us stipends and stuff, because I didn't ask, but we had seven people, seven or eight people that came in. Now, out of the seven or eight people that came in, I can't tell you how many of us graduated, because I didn't ask, and it wasn't any of my business. I know that I walked across the stage, and, uh, I know that a few other people did as well, but there--a lot of people, uh, that were in my class did not graduate. They came in with that--with that--at that same time. Um, one, I know, eventually finished, uh, but others did not, and, um--so I don't think it's a--I don't 01:03:00think it's a field where there is a lot of examples of African Americans in the profession that would attract current students or current African Americans to that. There's a lot of other things that interest people more, and, uh, it's a--it's just--you know, when I was going through law school, I can remember there were so many other students who had a leg up because either their father or grandfather or uncle--or even one of my--my good friends that went with me to Furman, I didn't--we didn't know that we were going to law school with each other, uh, until we walked--literally walked on UK's campus and were walking down the street and bumped into each other. But his father and his uncle are both attorneys. His younger brother is now an attorney, and so it is a familial thing. It's not a familial thing in the African American community. Now, my son tells me that he wants to be a judge one day. He wants to, you know, go 01:04:00into the practice of law. My daughter may as well, but that's something that's new that is being created with me. It's not because it's the, um--it's the expectation, and I talk a lot about this. There's a difference between the exceptions and expectations. There are--in certain segments of the community, there is the expectation that you are going to go to college, which was the expect--expectation from my father. "You're going to college. You're going to get a degree. You're going to get a good job, and you're going to go out and become a respected community--uh, member of the community." That's the expectation. In some families and in the African American community, that would be the exception to the rule, okay? And it probably, in a great percentage of those--of the African American population, that's the exception to the rule, whereas where I live, over in Oldham County, here in Oldham County, in Goshen, 01:05:00it's predominately white. It's a wealthy--the wealthiest zip code in the area and the perspective is there. It would be the exception to the rule that those kids when they graduate do not go on to go to college, do not go on to successful jobs, do not go on to be contributing members of their community, uh, so it's--

ARD: That's very telling.

CROSBY: --it's a large difference, and so I think at the time when I went to the University of Kentucky there--the--the percentage of African Americans in the state of Kentucky was, I think, three percent, and the number of people that were in the University of Kentucky, the percentage of African Americans at the University of Kentucky, was less than--was either one or less than one percent. I'd be willing to bet those percentages haven't changed if at all.

ARD: Do you have any thoughts about how to increase the minority participation 01:06:00in the legal field?

CROSBY: We've got to sell it. You know, I do--I try and do that myself, not necessarily directed towards the African American community. But when I go in and I talk to students in school, I want them to see that this is something that they can do. Whether they're white or black, I want to see that--give them--show them that this--here is a black man that is able to do this. You can do this too. And, um--but it's got to be sold, because it's not--I mean, obviously, the legal profession is not easy. It's not easy to get into. I mean, law school is not--not a piece of cake, um, and somebody has to really want to do that and really has to be interested in, um, rights, justice, to put up with law school. And, um, you know, it--it's not easy. It's not--so it's not attractive.

ARD: If you were speaking to a younger version of yourself, what advice would 01:07:00you give?

CROSBY: Well, um, I would probably tell my--my younger self, "Loosen up a little bit and have a little bit more fun. Take a few more risks. Have a girlfriend. Ask somebody out. Don't be scared. Don't be so scared, uh, to--to, uh, step out on that ledge." Um, I spent a lot of time as a--as a youth, just because of, you know, the community I grew up in, feeling kind of isolated. You know, there are things that I didn't participate in. I never dated anybody in high school. I--I was pres--class president and took a blind date to my own prom. Somebody had to set me up with someone. Um, and so I--I think that there was a lot of stuff that I missed out on in growing up that I 01:08:00wish that I could have participated in. But because I felt kind of isolated, I just--I didn't pursue it, and, um, so I would probably tell myself, you know, "Take a few more risks. Um, step out on that ledge." And there--there--I mean, dating is just one of those things. It's--I mean, there's other stuff as well, but I was just not--not--not really all that confident. And if--I think if I had had a little bit more self-confidence when I was younger instead of masking it as, uh, um, hiding behind schoolwork and intelligence and things, something like that, I would have--I probably would have had a--a lot more enjoyable childhood. Not that mine wasn't enjoyable, because it was, but it probably would have been a lot better.

ARD: Thank you for that. Is there anything that you want to talk about that we have not yet talked about?

CROSBY: I've probably talked about everything, um, that I possibly can think 01:09:00of. I do think it's important that--you know, for posterity's sake that we understand that there are--there are opportunities for African Americans in the la--legal profession, and, um, like myself, particularly, and Arnold Lynch, who is over in Christian County, that area, and Derek Reed down in Hart County--um, to the best of my knowledge, we're the only three African American judges that have ever served outside of the metropolitan areas of Louisville or Lexington. And it's important that, where there are opportunities to serve, that we not be scared to step up and, uh, try to fill those roles and fill those positions, and I think that--knowing those other two guys the way that I do--that everybody has 01:10:00gotten used to the idea of us serving in those capacities, so hopefully that spreads the idea that people will get used to African Americans serving in those communi--serving in those capacities so that in other communities the same thing can take place, and that those issues with regard to, uh, prejudice in terms of intelligence or ration and things of that nature will--will dissipate and disappear. We're not there, won't be there in my generation or lifetime, um, but maybe one day we'll get there. Um, so--

ARD: Well, thank you for that. We really appreciate your time today.

CROSBY: Thank you.

[End of interview.]