Interview with Maggie Keane, June 5, 2014

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Good morning. I'm Erica Bindner-Wooten. It's June 5th, 2014, and I'm conducting an interview for the Legacy of African American Judges in Kentucky. Here with me today is Attorney Maggie Keane, and we're going to be discussing Justice William "Bill" McAnulty. Thank you for being with us, Maggie. Appreciate--

KEANE: Glad to do it.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Appreciate you taking the time. We are at the Greenebaum Doll & McDonald conference room in Louisville, Kentucky.

KEANE: And it's Bingham Greenebaum Doll now, sorry, right (??).

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Thank you. No, I appreciate--no, I appreciate that correction. We're at the Bingham Greenebaum Doll McDonald conference room in Louisville, Kentucky. Maggie, we're going to start the interview just asking a couple general questions about you and your background, and then we'll work our way into a discussion about Justice McAnulty. Um, can you tell me when and where you were born?

KEANE: I was born in 1952 in the west end of Louisville, 43rd and Michigan, and grew up--uh, went to Christ the King Loretto High School. Started at the 00:01:00University of Kentucky, undergraduate. Um, did not like it. Um, hitchhiked around the United States and Europe for a while. Came back and started U. of L. [University of Louisville] law school in '79 and graduated in '82.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great, thank you. Can you describe for me, a little bit, the community that you grew up in and that you were raised in?

KEANE: Interesting question, given the subject matter. Um, when I grew up in the west end of Louisville, um, in the '50s and '60s, it was quite integrated. Um, it was, um--which, I think, was probably the only part of town that was. Urban renewal had just accomplished tearing down much of the African American neighborhood; I'd say from 6th and Walnut down to about 22nd. So, the people that had lived in those big, beautiful houses moved west and moved into the west end of Louisville. Um, so, it--when I graduated from Loretto High School in 1970, um, my school class was maybe sixty women, and half were African American, 00:02:00many of whom were not Catholics but who lived in the neighborhood and whose parents wanted them to go to a private school. So, um, I grew up in a--like I said, an integrated neighborhood, which is--quite a shock when I moved to Lexington to go to the University of Kentucky. (laughs) For sure.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And can you tell me what you do professionally now?

KEANE: I'm a litigator, trial lawyer, civil litigation--uh, mostly, I represent people who are being sued. But I do some--I do some suing. But I generally represent corporations and people who are sued. Contract litigation, employment litigation, products liability litigation, some domestics work. But I'm a trial lawyer.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great, thank you. And can you tell me when and how you met Justice McAnulty.

KEANE: Yes. I met Bill McAnulty in 1979, um, my first year of law school. My 00:03:00husband's Greg Masterson, and his restaurant, Masterson's, was literally a--a block from where Bill McAnulty and his wife, Brenda, were living as law--he was a law student, she was a graduate student at the University of Louisville. And so, Bill had met my husband, Greg. And when I started law school, um, I had also applied to U of K [University of Kentucky] law school, because I knew more judges and lawyers there. I had--then met my future husband, and I decided to stay in Louisville. But I didn't know that many lawyers. Obvious--I came from blue collar--my dad worked for the post office. I did not--didn't have a lawyer, didn't know any lawyers, didn't know any judges. So, Gregory says, "You need to meet Bill McAnulty." So, I met Bill my freshman year of law school, and we became fast and dear friends.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great.

KEANE: He was also my--one of my law school professors. Once I met him, he had--at the time, Bill was on the district court bench and was very active in 00:04:00the, um, amendments to the juvenile code, which were substantial at that time. Um, and I took a juvenile justice seminar from Bill. And they got very involved in--in that work that he was doing--in fact, wrote my journal note about the juvenile code. Um, so, uh, he became my professor, also, but my friend. And I never worked for him, but that was my initial relationship with him.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Good. So, he was an adjunct professor, um--

KEANE: Yes.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --after law school?

KEANE: Yes.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Okay.

KEANE: Um, yes, and he did that for a long time. Um, I think mostly he taught juvenile justice, because, again, that was his passion. Um, he may have taught other things, as time went on, and--and he moved up to circuit court and--and wasn't sitting in--in juvenile court anymore.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Okay. Can you recall what your first impressions were when you 00:05:00met Bill McAnulty?

KEANE: A charmer. (laughs) Extremely intelligent. Witty. Disarming. Demanding, in that, um, he didn't suffer fools lightly. He--whether it was friendship or it--in some professional relationship, he expected you to know what you were talking about and to be able to engage in a conversation with him, which took work, because he was very--again, he was bright, but he was also witty. So, there was that sarcasm you had to be able to deal--understand it and deal with it. So, that was my initial impression of--and a very social animal. He loved people.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: I think that's very evident, uh, as we look further at his career. Thank you for sharing that. Um, we're going to backtrack a little bit and talk a little bit about Justice McAnulty's early life. Um, any of the 00:06:00questions that I ask you from here on out, if you don't know, certainly feel free to say so. Um, do you know, uh, where Justice McAnulty was born and raised?

KEANE: I--Indianapolis, Indiana, uh, in 1947. October 9th, 1947. Um, Bill and I talked a--about his upbringing. His father, like mine, worked for the post office. Um, so he came from humble beginnings. I've met his father, who died a couple years ago. I never met Bill's mother. Um, he was practicing law here as one--one of my partners, when she died, but I never had the--the luxury of meeting her. But he was always very close to his family.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Did he have siblings that you're aware of?

KEANE: Yes. Um, he has two sisters.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Okay. Great.

KEANE: One who is a very good friend, the other I--I've met. Uh, I had not met 00:07:00her until--at Bill's funeral, but I have met--and I've seen her recently--but his sister Jean Smith, who, um, became, um, an Episcopal priest later in her life.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Uh-huh.

KEANE: And who's now retired, is a dear, dear friend of mine.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: You mentioned that you all come from similar upbringings. Um, did he ever talk about any lessons that his parents instilled in him? Were there any kind of core values that he brought from childhood forward into his professional career?

KEANE: Bill never wore his color on his sleeve, but he also never forgot, um, the fact--that fact of life. And growing up in the late forties, early fifties--even though Indianapolis is in the North--um, I--I know there were 00:08:00issues, and one thing that his parents instilled in him was not to back down. To stand up for yourself. And equally as important, maybe more important, was education. How--how, you know, you--you were gonna get it. You, Bill, were gonna go to school, uh, and how important it was to be a complete person. And not only to be able to take care of yourself--that is, earn a living--but that education was what made you a complete person.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great. (clears throat) Excuse me. According to my research, he had a master's degree in special education. Do you know when he made the switch to law, or--

KEANE: Well--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --what prompted that?

KEANE: --he--I'm looking at his resume, that, uh, had--and he graduated from Indiana University in '70, and then U. of L. MAT [Master of Arts in Teaching] in 00:09:001971. Then he went on to law school. He graduated in '74. And I don't know what was the impetus for that. Uh, I--I don't know.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Okay, great. And you said that he attended, uh, U. of L.'s law school?

KEANE: Yes.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Is that correct? Okay.

KEANE: Yes. He was president of the Student Bar Association, in a very heated campaign against Joe Lambert, (laughs) who later was his Chief Justice when he was on the Supreme Court. So--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great.

KEANE: Funny stories about that.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: (laughs) Any you'd like to share?

KEANE: Just that it was, you know, uh, well, who--who was more political. But Bill won the race. And I don't know if he won handily, but Bill won the race, so (laughs) it's interesting.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure. Did he ever talk about his law score--excuse me, law school experience? Did he ever--did he enjoy it? Did he share stories about it? Or--

KEANE: Uh, uh, uh, I--I knew about this--the student bar election, because he 00:10:00kind of joked about that, particularly, when he and Joe Lambert, Chief Justice Lambert, um, became judges together, if you will, and then sat together on the Supreme Court. But he loved the law. I mean, he--he truly, um--his mind was very well fitted for practicing law, reading law, teaching law. And I--I still think, uh, he's one of the finest trial judges that's ever sat in Kentucky. And I think, if you ask people, that's probably a--a consistent response you're going to get. He was--it--it was just something that, um--it became part of him. So, I'm assuming he loved law school.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure, sure. Think (??)--excuse me. Um, my research indicated 00:11:00that he graduated from law school in '74 and then became a judge on the juvenile court in '75? Is that--

KEANE: That's correct.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --your understanding?

KEANE: And that was before--that was under the, uh, old judicial system. We had not, uh, implemented the judicial article amendment, which--I think the judges didn't start getting elected under that until either '77 or '78. So, yes, he became a judge. I teased him that he never really practiced law and didn't know how to practice law, because I think, by my recollection, I--I think he became a judge within maybe six months or so of--of being sworn in, because he graduated in May and wouldn't have been sworn in until October, '74. Um, I know he spent some time at, um, what was then called City of Louisville Public Safety, doing 00:12:00some--some, um, work there with---Irv Foley, who's still practicing and, uh, is somebody you might want to talk to Bill about. Uh, because I think that was Bill's first real legal job that he had.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Okay. So, my--by my estimation, he would have been about twenty-six or twenty-seven, which, um, certainly is impressive, to be on the bench at such a young age.

KEANE: Well, he was born in '47--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Yeah.

KEANE: --and so, twenty-eight.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Right, twenty-eight. And do you know how he was able to (laughs) leave law school and get to the bench so quickly?

KEANE: Hmm. Bill always had political acumen. And, um, you know, having a job--I don't know--I can't remember who got him the job at Public Safety. But being--because then, the--the judges were appointed. And Martin--Justice Martin 00:13:00Joshal (??) would--would know all of these details. And I know who appointed Martin, but I cannot remember who appointed Bill. Because Todd Hollenbach--uh, Martin and Bill came, uh, into the system about the same time, and--and Todd Hollenbach, who was then our county attorney, appointed Martin. He may have appointed Bill. But--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure.

KEANE: --working in, basically, quote, City Hall--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Um-hm.

KEANE: --uh, he came to the attention of people who were looking for good young people to put on the bench.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure, sure. And it looks like, from, uh, researching his career, that he served pretty much at every level of the Kentucky Judiciary. Um, from your conversations with him, do you think there was one level that he enjoyed more than others? Or--

KEANE: He, hmm, told me, uh, that the best job ever was the court of appeals. Um, now, Bill said that, but I think one of the reasons he would say that is 00:14:00because he came to that job having sat in district, having been a trial court judge in circuit. He took a break and came here and practiced for a few years. Went back to circuit, and then went to the court of appeals. And that job, um--he loved it because you had the luxury of being able to write. You--and, you know, when you're in district circuit court, it's every day, all day long. You know, 500 cases or 700 cases, however many a judge has. And practicing law, it's, you know, juggling telephone calls and writing briefs and going to court. And the court of appeals--not saying he wasn't busy, because he was. But he had the luxury of taking a case, reviewing what the trial court judge has done--and he used to joke and say, "My job now is to find errors"--um, and then writing, uh, a--a brief. And he was a wonderful writer. So, he said that was his favorite 00:15:00position. Now, I--he loved being on the Supreme Court. But it's a--it's--that job is a--much different than the court of appeals.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure.

KEANE: Which he says--the court of appeals, he said, is the best job in the world.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Well, and that certainly makes sense, given what you had said about his love of the law. And certainly, that gave him the opportunity to really explore the law, right?

KEANE: Right.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great, thank you. Did he ever mention any memorable cases that he presided over at any of the levels?

KEANE: -----------(??)

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Are there one or two that kind of stick out in your mind, um, either positive or negative?

KEANE: Well, there's--there's one case, and it's infamous. So, two cases, really, and I'll talk about that. But he loved juvenile court. Um, he really made a difference there in helping get the juvenile code amended. Uh, he was very passionate about it, and I know he--I think he believed he did a really good job there. So, that part of district court he talked about a lot. Circuit 00:16:00court--(sighs) he was assigned a case in Louisville. We call it the Trinity murder cases. Um, and it really wasn't that long after Bill got on the--the--went to circuit, I think. He went to circuit in '83. And I think that the cases were '85. Um, it was very difficult if you know the nature of the cases, that--um, two Caucasian boys who were students at Trinity were at what I call the old Moby Dick's over, uh, near Germantown, and allegedly--well, two people are in--in jail. One's on death row. But they were, um, picked up and 00:17:00then executed by two African American teenagers, I think. They were over eighteen at the time, but I think they were nineteen. But at any rate, Bill had--had to try both of them, and he--he ended up trying both of them in Lexington, obviously, because of the jury pool. There was so much publicity about the case. There's still a lot of publicity about the case. And, uh, seems like they both--each of them took a month. And he was sitting in Lexington, and he had death threats and, uh, was a very difficult--it was very difficult for him. But, yeah. I remember thinking that I was glad Bill was an African American at the time, because there was very much concern when the case was filed, because it--it was--it was very racial. Um, and I was glad, one, regardless of 00:18:00the color of Bill's skin, he would have done a great job trying it. But I remember thinking I'm glad it got assigned to Bill because of the racial nature of the cases, which--those cases were very difficult on Bill. Very--I would go over to see him, take him to dinner, and it was a--very tough on him.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure, I can imagine, thank you for sharing that.

KEANE: And one of them--one of the, you know, men received the death penalty, and that--in talking to Bill over the years about the judiciary, you know, he would say that the circuit court judge in Kentucky has more power than anybody, because that is the person who sentences you to death. The governor has to sign the death warrant, but it is the circuit court judge who has the, quote, judicial power to sentence you to death. And--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure. Can you talk a little bit about his reputation on the bench?

KEANE: Um-hm

BINDNER-WOOTEN: You mentioned, in telling that story, being thankful that he was the one that had the case, because you knew--would do a good job. What--what was kind of his reputation in the community on the bench?

KEANE: Just solid. Um, Bill had a great sense of humor. Uh, but when you were in his courtroom, it was serious, but not overwhelming. He would use humor to lighten, uh, a--a moment. Uh, and people would often say, you know, the judge has stepped in, there's big black chairs, and Bill sat a lot, and he would sit with his eyes closed. And people would think that he was asleep. Well, he wasn't. And he--but he, uh, he was very intently listening to everything. He 00:20:00treated people with respect. His rulings were, you know--I'm not saying I always agreed with him or that other people didn't disagree with him, but he--it was well-founded. It wasn't a knee-jerk reaction. It wasn't an overreaction. It wasn't a bias one way or another about the law. Uh, he was just a very solid judge. And he won Judge of the Year, I think, more than once. But he was--he was the kind of judge that you would want to practice a case in front of. He didn't interfere with your ability to practice your case, but he also kept you going in the right direction.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure. I think that's definitely very evident from the--the path that his career took, um, but thank you for sharing some of the reasons why that happened. Uh, I'm going to backtrack a little bit and just talk about some of his judicial campaigns. I know that at various points he was appointed and 00:21:00then--and, excuse me, and then also had to run, uh, elections. Can you talk a little bit--uh, were you involved in any of his campaigns? And can you talk a little bit about those experiences?

KEANE: Yes. I was involved--the first one was when he was running for district--I think--it would have been, I guess, his second term. Bill always used green and white signs, as if he were Irish. And he'd say how he was black Irish, and maybe he was. But, uh, he always used the green and white signs, uh, which--he and I talked about experiences where I'm putting a sign up and somebody says, "Well, you didn't tell me that person was an African American." And I said, "Well, he is." Uh, and I know that happened to Bill on more than one occasion. But, uh, yes, and I worked in his circuit court race. Um, when 00:22:00he--there were--there was--when we had the judicial amendment change, there was this new group of--of judges that came in: Bill and one of his best friends, Ellen Ewing, who pre-deceased him, and Martin Johnstone and, uh, Ken Corey and others. But, um, they sat in district and then they all moved up to--or ran for circuit at the same time. There were other people sitting in circuit, so they all filed against incumbent, established judges. And Bill filed against Curtis Witten and won. Uh, and I--I think all of the younger, you know, younger judges won. Martin would remember better, but the--by and large, we had a whole new slate of new, younger judges coming to circuit court. And they--I was so proud of that bench. We had the best going around Kentucky. We had the best circuit court bench, bar none. Uh, and, um, Bill sat from '83--and had eight-year terms. 00:23:00I--I'm not sure he was opposed when he had his next race. And then, Bill decided--well, he had also--he had a--he had a venture away from the bench. Um, he was appointed by John Y. Brown when he was the governor--you can look up what the years that was--to be the Secretary Justice. Um, but Bill didn't stay up there long. Um, I'm not even sure he was up there six months. Um, I don't think he enjoyed that process at all. And there were some events going on at the time, um--uh, there was an individual--and it--it was a court case of some sort. I could--I do remember. But anyway, Bill, um, decided he wanted to go back on the 00:24:00bench. So, John Y. appointed him back on the circuit court bench. I think it was circuit that he left around--but any rate, so he goes--the--I don't--I'm not sure he was--had opposition when he ran again in circuit, which would have been '91. About that time, he came to Greenebaum, uh, for, mm, three, four years. Was a partner. Practiced law, tried cases. Tried jury cases. Um, and then he decided he wanted to go back on the bench. So, the--the governor then appointed him. He went back on the bench. And then, when Justice Johnstone, who was at the court of appeals, went to the Supreme Court, which would have been in '96--a vacancy occurred at the court of appeals. And Bill's friend, Ellen Ewing, put in 00:25:00for--she was still sitting on the circuit court. Yeah. And she did not--you--you know, you get nominated and you have a committee that, uh, gets three names and they give it to the governor. Well, she didn't come out of committee, and Lisa Abramson was appointed by, judge, uh, Governor Patton to the court of appeals. And Bill decided, "I'm going to run." And he--he hadn't even put in for the nomination, but--because his friend, Ellen, uh, didn't get it, he said, "I'm going to run." And he beat Lisa. And I was very involved in that campaign. Um, campaigning with Bill was an interesting process. Um, so that was in '96, '97. Uh, he was at the court of appeals. Think I'm getting my dates right. Martin 00:26:00definitely went to the Supreme Court in '96, so it would--had to be right. So, Bill was in court of appeals until Martin retired from the Supreme Court in '06. And, um, was a big debate. This is why you should listen to his speech when he was sworn in on the Supreme Court. Um, that was Governor Fletcher, and Bill was going to be opposed in that race by Ann Shake. And, um, there were some discussion that the governor should wait and just let the people decide and just leave the seat vacant. Um, and Bill said, "Like Martin Luther King said, I can't wait." And it's--when you listen to it now--because, again, Bill only got to sit for maybe a year on the Supreme Court--it's really--it's very poignant, because 00:27:00his--his was in relation to, um, um, you know, the, um, equality and not having to wait to--for African Americans to take their seat. But it was, again, very poignant, because he didn't have very long. Indeed, he didn't have long to sit. So, the--the speech is very good. So, the--Fletcher appointed him and then, um, he had a--it was, uh, I--I don't want to say difficult race. It--it was a very--Supreme Court races and then--the court of appeals at that level, they're expensive. Uh, very time-consuming. Um, and he even had--he had a primary, I think. I know he did. He had a primary. So, we--I mean, we'd--you know, a lot of leading up to the primary and then the general election. So, yes, I went through those campaigns with Bill. Uh, Bill, he loves people, but he didn't like campaigning. In fact, um, after Bill was on the court of appeals or maybe at the 00:28:00Supreme Court, he proposed--I think he may have even written something about this--and I had talked to him about it--that now we elect all judges in the state system in Kentucky. And Bill thought that the--Kentucky should go to a different model, that at least at the appellate level, that they be appointed by--not the--the--the governor would have to make the appointment, but through some mechanism where it was a well-balanced group that picked the--the potential candidates. Governor would have to make the eventual selection. Bill, I think, thought that campaigning at that level for--that the court of appeals and Supreme Court level took away from the position. There's a grand debate about that. But--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure.

KEANE: --it was something he, at the end, felt strongly about.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure. Did he ever talk about what it meant to be the first and thus far the only African American to sit on the Supreme Court in Kentucky?

KEANE: Yes. Um, uh, it was hard. I mean, the campaigns were hard. It was a hard decision to make, knowing what you're putting yourself into. I think Bill felt he owed it to the Commonwealth, um, to make that happen, or at least to try to make it happen, even if he didn't want to go through the campaigning part of it or the raising money part of it, and what can be an acrimonious campaign. Um, and I know Justice Johnstone talked to him a long time when Martin decided he 00:30:00was going to retire. He wanted Bill to follow him. And I'm not sure Bill wanted to, because he loved the court of appeals. "Why do I need to go anywhere else?" Um, but luckily, he did. And luckily, the--the governor appointed him. So, we got him to sit for longer than he would have if he hadn't sat until the election in November. So, um, he knew it was important.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure. Thank you. Going to switch gears a little bit and talk, uh, about his life off the bench. Um, what kind of community activities was he involved in? Um, I--I know numerous--just from my--

KEANE: Yeah.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --research. But, um, anything in particular that he really enjoyed?

KEANE: He stayed active in the Kentucky Youth Advocates, which tied back to the juvenile code and juvenile court issues--um, I think until the end of his life. Um, he was active in the Bell Awards. He was a huge U. of L. fan, and was very 00:31:00active--I think he may have been on the board of overseers at some time. He was active at the law school by teaching and otherwise. He spoke everywhere. Um, a lot. Truly a lot. I'm trying to think if I can remember any that comes back of his other--he--he was on the board of some entity up in, um, New York that had to do--I think with juvenile justice. And I think he stayed on that for--I think until the end. Um, he was--they asked him to chair Metro United Way. I think that that was when he was here, and I know--I don't know if he broke the record raising money that year, but he--you know, he did very well. Yeah, he was on the 00:32:00board of overseers at U. of L. And he was on the board of trustees at Bellarmine College. He loved Bellarmine College. He was on the board of overseers at Spalding. He was very active in our dean search in '88 at U. of L. And he was very active in some of the national organizations, like Juvenile--the Juvenile Judges. Uh, he traveled to England at least once, uh, with a group of judges. He was very active in national, international organizations. Um, he was also in the Inns of Court in Louisville. He was a master, uh, which is dedicated to professionalism and civility, and I think he enjoyed his time in the Inns of Court.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Yeah. Did Justice McAnulty have any children?

KEANE: Yes. He was also very involved in Leadership Louisville. I--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --Okay--

KEANE: --I don't know if he was in the first class. I think he might have been. But he stayed active in it, and he was always recruiting people to get involved in Leadership Louisville. Yes. Bill has four children. Patrick is the oldest, who lives in Louisville and is a lacrosse coach at Kentucky Country Day and very successful at that. Kate McAnulty is married and now lives, uh, and teaches at, uh, as a professor at Kent--used to be Kent State and now it's called, I think, Kent University. She received her Ph.D.--I don't--not that long after Bill died. And it was--I don't know if you've ever been to his Ph.D.--have you ever seen anybody--where they do the--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Hm.

KEANE: --whatever (??) that thing's called. Um, but it was quite something, and something her dad would have been really proud of. And then, that was from--those were from his first marriage. And then he has two children from his 00:34:00second marriage: Will, who's William E. McAnulty the Third, who is a freshman at the university--or just finished his freshman year at the University of Florida. And his daughter, Shannon, who--I'm thinking Shannon now would be maybe eleven or twelve. I don't see S-Shannon very much. I think--I believe that Shannon now lives in Florida. Her mom, Kristy (??) McAnulty, I think, relocated recently, in the last year or so.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Yeah. In Kentucky, we have kind of a legacy of, um, families in the law, fathers and grandfathers, and passing down, you know, legal education, um, to their children. Did Justice McAnulty ever mention whether or not he wanted any of his children to follow him into the law?

KEANE: Bill, I think, deliberately didn't pressure--particularly the two older 00:35:00children. Because Will was only--maybe he was eleven when Bill died. Uh, he--he--Bill had felt the same way about education for his children than--that was passed down to him. So, education was the key. And--and he sent both--he and Brenda sent both Patrick and Kate to private schools, you know, at--you know, Bill's living on a--state pay, and Brenda's a professor at the University of Louisville. Uh, Patrick went to Amherst and, uh, Kate went to Wittenberg. So, I think if--his focus was educate--find something you love. Uh, I remember when 00:36:00Patrick graduated and came home from Amherst, a lot of people said, "Oh, you need to go to law school, you need to apply to law school." And I don't think Patrick ever wanted to do it. I'm not saying he couldn't change his mind now. But, for whatever reason--uh, Bill would be big shoes to follow. But I don't think that was Patrick's reason. I--I just don't think he ever felt strongly about it. And, at the same time, Bill didn't say, "You're going to law school." Um, so, I think he wanted his children to get an education, find something they loved to do, and do it. And--and both of his older children had--had done that.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great, great. I know that he's often recalled as being, um, very witty and, um, somewhat of a practical jokester. Um, is there any--(laughs) comments or jokes, um, that come to your--come to mind, uh, when you think about him?

KEANE: (laughs) Well, I mean, he was--it was always--it was always--you had to be on your toes around him, and it was always something. He was always--a barb here, a barb there. Um, just doing things to get your goat. And there were a couple things that I'd rather not put on the--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: (laughs) Sure.

KEANE: --in a public forum. But, um--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure.

KEANE: And sometimes, Bill would go too far. I mean, he'd hurt people's feelings, and it--every person has their warts, and I'm not saying Bill was the perfect person, because he wasn't. Bill and I talked about that. And he and I had our set-tos and go-rounds over the years about various and sundry--sundry subjects. I was looking at an email I got from him toward the end, and he was, like, you know--(laughs) sort of like, "I don't deserve you as a friend because of some of the stuff I've pulled on you." And it's just that--I mean, he 00:38:00would--it was just always something. Always something. Um--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Right.

KEANE: And you never knew what he would--you never knew what he was going to do or was going to say. So, I--I can't--I--I don't want to say anything more specific than that.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And that's fine. Thank you. What--what--what do you want people to remember most about Justice McAnulty?

KEANE: That he was a good person. He was a great judge. He was a challenging friend. And he--he really--even if maybe he didn't realize it until near the 00:39:00end, how much he gave by doing what he did. Um, and how much he got out of that. I mean, I think he--whether it's a luxury or not--I mean, he didn't die immediately, but he had some time to think about it and talk to people about it. And, uh, he had a good life. And he--and he recognized that he had a good life. It's too short. But, uh, he had a good life and he had a chance to do good work and to do good things and to serve the Commonwealth, and to do it well in a position and in a way, being the first African American, that he--you know, I think he felt honored and lucky to have done it. Uh, so--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And my last and final question, um, as we wrap up this 00:40:00interview is just--is there anything that we haven't covered in these questions, um, that you would want recorded about Justice McAnulty?

KEANE: I watched Bill when some of his friends went through illness and eventual--dying, and thinking about Judge Ewing, who he was very close to. And it was sad for her. She retired from the court and was diagnosed with breast cancer, literally with--within, like, two months. Was very sad. And I remember Bill--um, that whole incident sort of made him angry. And I remember being with him--or he--him being here around the time of his mother's death. And it--it 00:41:00was--you know, things lost and, you know, didn't have the time to make up for things you didn't get to do. But when his time came, he was so--one, he was positive and funny. I mean, he made the joke, um, when, uh--I was with him the day he got the first call about the spot on his lung. And I think Bill knew. I mean, he was a lifelong smoker. I think he knew, um, how bad it could be. But then, you know, it went to his brain, so they had to do surgery. And he told the doctors, "Two things you have to do: don't turn me into Clarence Thomas or a U.K. [University of Kentucky] fan." (laughs) And Bill--I mean, he was doing it to be funny, because that was the way Bill was. But it--it made it so much easier for everybody else who was dealing with it. Obviously, his family and his 00:42:00friends. The doctors. Um, and Bill never lost that. And he, um--you know, the last time I saw him, um, I mean, he was--nobody's ready to go, but he was at peace with himself. And I was so proud of him, the way he handled it all. I mean, just the whole--and I was very proud of him. And it was a--a life lesson for a lot of us. So, we--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Thank you so much--

KEANE: You're welcome.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --for taking the time to talk with us today. We greatly appreciate it.

[End of interview]