Interview with John Boswell, July 31, 2014

 GREGORY: This is John Gregory, interviewing John Boswell of Independent Stave Company, on July 31st, 2014, for the Kentucky Bourbon Tales Oral History Project of the University of Kentucky Library's Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History. We're speaking at Independent Stave's Kentucky cooperage in Lebanon, Kentucky. So Mr. Boswell, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where -- where were you born, and where did you grow up?

BOSWELL: I was born in Lebanon, Missouri. Uh, that's right in the center of white oak country in southwest Missouri, and, uh, I grew up right next to the barrel factory, uh, so I grew up with a barrel factory in my backyard, and a stave mill in my backyard, so I knew about the business, you know, from a real early age, and, and played on the sawdust piles in the wintertime, and so when we had sled, we'd sled down those sawdust piles, and, and we'd make, uh, little bobsled runs in the sawdust and pour ice on it--you know, pour water on it to make ice. And so I was already around the, the stave mill. And, and I grew up 00:01:00in Lebanon, Missouri, uh, went to the University of Missouri, uh, in Columbia, Missouri. Got a degree in mechanical engineering. Um, married my high school sweetheart, who is, um, the mother of, uh, my oldest son, who manages the business here. That's Bradley. And, um, had a really happy childhood. You know, when you grow up around the bourbon industry, it's always happy.

GREGORY: (laughs) And when--what was your birthdate?

BOSWELL: February 20th, 1947.

GREGORY: Can you tell us, uh--kind of give us a thumbnail history of the company?

BOSWELL: Well, we, uh, we st-- we started in the--our family started in the business with my grandfather, T.W. Boswell, in Shannon County, and he, uh, he had, uh, several stave mills. I think he got up to--he started off with just 00:02:00the one that was on the--his father's property, and, uh, then grew to about thirty-six mills in South Carolina and scattered throughout the country. And so he was a--he was a stave producer, produced a lot of staves. And, uh, then my dad went to Georgia Tech during the Depression, uh, and when he got out there weren't any jobs, and so, um, he started a stave mill. And, uh--'cause that was the only thing he could really do, and that worked out really well, uh, for me, at least--(laughs)--and, and for--he, he did--he did-- He, he was a, uh, a Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech and a civil engineer. And I'm a mechanical engineer, and my son Brad's an industrial engineer. So, uh, we started out--the family started in the business with T.W. Boswell, my granddad, and then my father, and then I was in the business, and I, uh, started this facility, or 00:03:00bought this facility, from bourbon, uh--bought Bourbon Cooperage from, uh, Glenmore Distilling, and, uh, along with Shindling (??) and with, uh, with the Seagram's plant, and those were the major growth airs (??) of our company when--company when we made those purchases. Uh, we're in Europe, and, uh, my son Brad, you know, runs a worldwide operation now.

GREGORY: Do you have any memories of your grandfather--

BOSWELL: --sure!

GREGORY: --T.W. Boswell?

BOSWELL: Sure.

GREGORY: What was he like?

BOSWELL: Uh, really nice, you know. He was a sweetheart. He had, uh, rose gardens, and he had, uh--he grew orchids, yet he was a big, strong football player. (laughs) Played football at the first football team in Southwest Missouri State, which then was called Missouri State, which is now called Missouri State again. Um, he, he, he was just a--he was a gentleman, and he had--he had--I remember going into his, uh, his greenhouses where he had, um, uh, orchids, and, uh, you'd think a big, tough guy like that that was a football 00:04:00player and was in the timber industry wouldn't be so gentle as to raise orchids for a hobby, but he did. And, uh, then he had prized, uh, Hereford at the state fair. I remember he, he, uh, he was always--he was always there in Sedalia at the fai-- at the state fair with his, uh, prized cattle. So, uh, he was quite a fellow. He was--believed in excellence.

GREGORY: And what about your father? What, what was he like?

BOSWELL: Jay Boswell was, uh, a businessman, you know, the best businessman I ever knew. Seriously, the best businessman I ever knew is--was my dad. He, uh, worked hard, played hard, um-- He, he, uh, when he gave you his word on something, it was like his word was his bond. And, uh, he was careful about making commitments, but when he did it, he was rock solid. And in the bourbon industry, that's really important, because, uh, there's a lot of long-term 00:05:00relationships that are--that, that have to be nurtured and kept, you know, healthy, and so you have to really do what you say you're going to do. And he was really good at it, and he taught me to do the same, as I've taught my son, Brad.

GREGORY: What do you think he, in addition to the relationships, what do you think he liked about the business?

BOSWELL: He was a civil engineer, and, uh, and, and he liked to build buildings and dry kilns and factories. He, he, he, he really enjoyed, uh, looking over a piece of property that had buildings that he had built, and, and h-he--I remember when his did--designed his buildings, he would sometimes literally draw out every concrete block, whereas I would just do a little schematic by hand on a, on a, on a, on, on the, you know, some, uh, some hatch paper. He would--he would literally get a drawing board out, you know, with his T-square, and, and, uh, he'd, you know, draw it up right. But I, I do sketching, but he, he loved 00:06:00to, uh, to visualize what he was going to build, then build it. And I--and, uh, he was, you know, obviously quite good at it.

GREGORY: So, um, tell me a little bit more about growing up, uh, literally in the business, and--

BOSWELL: --yes.

GREGORY: --and, and right next to the business, even.

BOSWELL: Well, I remember when I was even maybe twelve that I would go with him and talk to the customers, so he would take me with him, out of school, and I would--when he'd negotiate, he wanted me to see what it was like from a very, very, very early age. And, uh, that was really good. You know, so I had a, an, an understanding. And then--and then also, I worked at the factory every summer, and that's your question: how did--how--what did he--how did I interact with him, and how did he set me up--

GREGORY: --mm.

BOSWELL: --to, to learn the business? Um, you know, he, he, he, he put me in 00:07:00every job in the factory, uh, from the time I was about twelve, and, uh, worked there--worked every summer. And so, um, you know, I learned to be a factory worker, and to relate to what their challenges were, and, uh, the blisters on their hands, and the soreness in the evening, and then the legs aching sometimes on the nighttime, you know, from standing on the concrete all day long. So, so I could relate to some of the problems that our employees have. Well, they want the rubber mats to work on? I understand that. (laughs) I was there, too.

GREGORY: Did you want to do that? I mean, as a ten--

BOSWELL: --oh, I was proud of it.

GREGORY: --twelve-year-old kid when--

BOSWELL: --oh, I was-- Well, I got into it--I got into it because I called my sister a whore, and, and, and, and I only knew what a H-O-R-R-O-R was. I had no idea what a W-H-O-R-E was. (laughs) But I called my sister a whore, and, and I 00:08:00loved my sister a lot, but she was acting terrible, and I called her a whore. And my dad said, "Son, don't--you can't--don't call your sister--" I said, "But she is, Dad. She's a whore." Said, "Son, don't use that. Don't, don't use that word." "Dad, she is a whore." And I thought--you know, and I only knew the H-O-R-R-O-R. I had no idea W-H-O-R-E. Anyway, he put me right to work. I was being too sassy, and it was terrible, you know. So--but that's really and truly how I got to work, how I started working at ten years old, uh, forty hours a week and all summer long. (laughs)

GREGORY: So what was the first job?

BOSWELL: Oh, gosh. I think I was, uh, off--I was, uh, stacking staves in the, in the stave yard. Um, you know, they would bring--the, the stave would come on wagons back in those days, and, uh, in fact, we had some mules back in those days. It wasn't all, uh, forklifts. So we had, we had some mules pulling wagons, and, uh, then I would take the staves off the wagons, and, and, you 00:09:00know, build stacks, and that was it, so that--so that the raw material could dry. That's what the purpose of it was.

GREGORY: Tell us about the, the trips to visit the, the clients that you, you mentioned before. Where did you go? Who did you get to meet? What was it like being on the road with your father?

BOSWELL: It was wonderful, you know. Uh, I remember meeting Harry Bloom, who was the, uh, old chairman of Jim Beam, and, uh, in Chicago. And, uh, Mr. Bloom was quite a character. And I remember he had a bodyguard that had this big bulge in his, in his jacket. I said, "Dad." I said, "Dad, is that a gun under that jacket do you think? Do you see that big bulge?" Said, "Yes, it is. He, he has a bodyguard." And I thought, "Wow, this is Eliot Ness stage, you know, Chicago!" So, at any rate, that was one of the most memorable trips to Chicago and, uh, Harry Bloom, and he had a body-- and, and his bodyguard. Um, we, we 00:10:00used to, uh--in traveling, uh, he would always give me math test, and we would do, like, little engineering problems while he was driving. I think I did the same thing with my son, Brad. Uh, and so as a result, I was brought up thinking like an engineer, and thinking like a businessman, because he was always teaching me. He was a great teacher, my dad was, and, uh, a wonderful father.

GREGORY: Do you remember your first trip to Kentucky? Or an early trip to Kentucky?

BOSWELL: Oh, that's a good question. I remember going to, uh, to, to, uh, to Max Shapiro's, uh, uncle's, to Heaven Hill, and then going to Jim Beam with my 00:11:00father, and, uh-- But very little detail. Not, not much. Not much.

GREGORY: So what about--(clears throat)--as you're getting older, you're--said you went to college, um--

BOSWELL: University of Missouri.

GREGORY: Um, was it a given that you would study engineering? I mean, given that you were--your father was giving you these math problems as you were growing up?

BOSWELL: Well, we had a class of 150 students, and I think we had something like--(laughs)--twenty-five go into engineering. It was just a ridiculous amount of kids within engineering, 'cause we had some really good high school math and science teachers in Lebanon, Missouri. And so, um, I was prepared for 00:12:00engineering, and, and my mind was, was, uh, oriented toward numbers, and, uh, mechanics. We took me-- uh, you know, our--in our mechanics courses, it was a priori for me. I just understood it. I just knew it, whereas in English I struggled to get a D, but in math and scien-- math and physics, I didn't have to hardly study, especially math. You know, I took the physics, the, uh, calculus courses. They were easy. They were e-- relatively easy for me, but I struggled with the--with the English side of it. Uh, God makes us all differently, you know. He gave me the ability to deal with numbers and engineering.

GREGORY: And when were you at Missouri?

BOSWELL: Uh, in '65 through '69.

GREGORY: That seems like, uh, it would've been a pretty, uh, fascinating time to be in--

BOSWELL: --that's 1965. (laughter)

GREGORY: It seems like that would've been a really fascinating time to be, uh, in engineering school. I mean, it's the height of the space program, for example--

BOSWELL: --oh, yeah.

GREGORY: --and, um, was, was it, uh, was it the cool thing to do to be, uh, in engineering in those years?

BOSWELL: Well, I sure thought it was. You know, I mean, it was my--uh, and, and my girlfriend, who became my wife, she was really proud of me for being in engineering school. And, uh, it was difficult. You know, it wasn't--it wasn't an easy chore. I think there were a lot easier degrees to get. But, um, I had the--I had the acumen toward engineering, and I was--you know, I--like I said, I could--I could, I could get a, an, an A in, in, in, uh, calculus easier than I could get a C in English, 'cause my mind just worked along with numbers very easily. It was--I was a numbers guy, kind of a nerd, you know, s-- the slide rule, guy, you know. That was me.

GREGORY: And so after college did you immediately go back to the family business, or how did that work?

BOSWELL: --when I graduated, the Vietnam, uh, conflict was underway, and so, uh, I went to work for, uh, uh, Bendix Corporation, and we made weapons. So I used my engineering skills to serve the country that way, and--instead of being a foot soldier.

GREGORY: And how long did you work for them?

BOSWELL: Uh, for a y-- one year.

GREGORY: Um-hm.

BOSWELL: One year.

GREGORY: And then did you come back to--

BOSWELL: --and then I went to Indepen-- went to work with my father.

GREGORY: In, in what position, or what capacity?

BOSWELL: I was, I was, uh--there was a walnut bowl factory, which he had started--and, uh, when I say "started," he had, uh--in his--mostly in his--just made some samples. And so, uh, he wanted that developed, and so I built that walnut bowl factory for him, and that was about a five-year project.

GREGORY: And so how did you progress through the ranks in, in the years after that?

BOSWELL: Well, I was in business for myself, for, for, like I said, about five 00:15:00years, too, after that, and then when he saw that his health was failing fast, uh, it was in, uh, in '79, uh, he called me, and, uh, we spoke about it. And so I sold him my business, and, uh--which was two retail stores, and a factory that made furniture down in Richland, Missouri. And I sold him those businesses, and, uh, joined in with him. And, uh, you know, he, he died a year later, of a heart attack. But I -- but, but I had that transition. I was actually sitting right at his desk for a year, you know, sitting at his desk, listening to everything, and then discussing those issues, those--you know, the decision making and what all went into it, and--

GREGORY: Do you think the years when you were in business for yourself, um, 00:16:00helped you--helped prepare you to--?

BOSWELL: Oh, yeah. You learn business by being in business for yourself faster than, than any other way. When it's your money on the line, and you're going to lose it, and your house, you know, and your livelihood, and those employees of yours that your money--that's-- It's a very serious issue, then. I mean, that-- that's when you really-- You learn more when it's your business than any other, any other time, for sure.

GREGORY: And so was it a difficult decision to, to go work for your father, and with your father?

BOSWELL: No, because it was so much bigger. I mean, my business had a hundred employees, and his had, you know, seven or eight hundred, and my business was worth a couple hundred thousand. His was worth many times that.

GREGORY: So how had he grown the business in those, in those years? Um, you've just--

BOSWELL: --how had he grown it?

GREGORY: Yeah.

BOSWELL: Through hard work. (laughs) Through hard work, and calling on customers, and, you know, getting involved with every--every d-day to day 00:17:00decision, you know, about buying logs and, and, uh, hiring the right people. You know, the most important thing that we can do as managers is hire the right people, and then give them the guidelines of where we--where they need to--where we want 'em to go, and then fitting all the pieces of the puzzle together, but the people is the most important part of it. He was very good at that.

GREGORY: So he was good at engineering and good at the people skills.

BOSWELL: Oh, yeah, very good, very good.

GREGORY: So when you came into--

BOSWELL: Smart. My dad was a very intelligent man, so he was good about everything he, he'd, he--everything--everything the man ever did, I saw excellence in.

GREGORY: So what year did you actually return, or start?

BOSWELL: Um, in '70.

GREGORY: And--

BOSWELL: And then I--and then I went to work for, for myself. Then around about '76 I came back with him. Those are approximate.

GREGORY: So what were the, the first few years like for you, being at Independent Stave? What, what kind of jobs were you doing? What was it like 00:18:00getting to know the, the clients and the relationships that your father had built?

BOSWELL: Well, this is after my dad passed away. It was, uh, it was, uh, you know, like, uh-- You know, I mean, there was no chance to relearn anything. I mean, it was-- I had to just jump in and do the business, you know, had to go to Jim Beam and Heaven Hill and all--you know, Wild Turkey and all of our good customers, and, and, uh, deal with those customers, and deal with the, the u-- we had union then. I had to deal with the union. And, uh, you know, it was like initiation by fire. (laughs) Did I like it? I loved it. You know, there's--you know, the challenges are wonderful.

GREGORY: Who were some of the folks that you were working with at the individual distilleries in those days?

BOSWELL: Uh, Booker Noe was a friend of mine. Joe Winkler was a--was a, a, 00:19:00a--one of the key players back then. Um, Stan Bershaw over at Seagram's Corporation was a fellow I worked with a lot. Um, I worked with Max Shapiro, Heaven Hill. Um, you know, all the--a lot of--they're, they're, they're has-beens now, just like me--(laughs)--I'm afraid. But, uh, they were the leaders of the industry then.

GREGORY: Do you have any particular story you could tell us about Booker Noe?

BOSWELL: Oh, gosh, there's a million stories about Booker. Uh, one time--one time Booker said he--one time Booker said, "My God, John, you don't want to kill no bear. Them bears, they're just like you and me. Don't be killin' no bear. 00:20:00You don't want to go to Alaska to kill no bear." I said, "Come on, Booker. We could go bear hunting." He said, "I'm not killin' no bear." (laughter) And so you know what? I didn't, either. I got to thinking about it, and I looked at Booker, and I looked at myself in the mirror, and I thought, you know, they are a lot like us. I'm not going to do that. (laughs) But that's one of the--one of the best stories, when I wanted to take him bear hunting with me. I'd been fishing with him up in--up in Canada, and, uh, he was always jovial and fun and, you know, always had his flask with him, you know--(laughs)--to, to make a--the, the libation made things always, uh, uh, special. And then he, he, uh, going to his home, and, uh, and, and, uh, having biscuits and gravy at his home, sitting in the kitchen with him-- Booker was really special, really special. Booker 00:21:00was a-- Of all the guys I think I worked with, he was one of the most--most memorable char-- memorable characters and pleasurable men to be around.

GREGORY: What did he teach you about the business?

BOSWELL: Booker? Well, taught me how to drink whiskey straight. (laughs) Uh-- You know, the-- In the warehousing, you know, Booker could, uh-- We would go through the--we went through the warehouses and tasted barrels, and we would, we would, uh, drill into a barrel, take samples, and then plug that hole, and then, and sample. And, uh, Booker taught me that it was all good--(laughs)--but there was quite a difference, and he taught me the difference of the flavors, you know, between--you know, I had no idea, but different barrels taste different. The st-- the, the product that comes out of the still is the same, pretty--almost exactly the same, but the barrels themselves have individual character. And I think--and I've--and later, after studying it, you know, now I 00:22:00know why, but I didn't know why then, and I think that Booker's knowledge about the individual character of barrels made me study barrel flavors and what causes the barrel flavors to be different. And, and it's things like growth rings per inch. If it's really fast growth timber, it tastes quite different than if it's slow growth timber. And he--and, and, uh, but he--by s-- by teaching that the barrels tasted somewhat--tasted differently, and that the--he called them honey barrels when they were really good, and, and, and, and then I learned and studied to determine what it was that made a honey barrel a honey barrel. So Booker was--really stimulated my intellectual curiosity as to why barrels taste differently, and I pursued it, and, and I think that, uh, gave us--help--helped us become leaders in the industry.

GREGORY: What about, uh, Max Shapiro? Any stories or memories of working with him?

BOSWELL: Max taught me how to make a barrel cheap. (laughter) Or not necessarily make it cheap, but sell it cheap. (laughter) Max is a great negotiator. You know, he's a-- He's, he's a--he's good. He's a good businessman, and I think that I learned from him mostly about being a businessman, not so much about how to make a barrel taste differently, you know. Max is sharp. I mean, I think--I have great respect for him and h-- and his family.

GREGORY: So once you took over the business, what kind of changes did you make? How did you grow the business?

BOSWELL: Oh, wow. I--you know, I, I try to be modest--(laughs)--you know. Uh, you know, I just did the best I could to compete, and, uh, and I had a--I'm an engineer, and I have a scientific-type mind, so, uh, so I always at--approach the technical side of the industry, both from the--you know, building machinery 00:24:00and, uh, developing flavors, and so, uh, you know, we design--I designed a lot of the machinery, and a lot of the assembly, uh, lines that we have, and I think in our barrel--in our stave mills and our barrel factories. And, uh, and then I hired engineers. So I think the big thing--the biggest contribution that I made to the industry was bringing in, like, fifteen engineers into the company, instead of one. Fifteen engineers can get a lot of work done, can change the, the way you make--the way you make the barrel, or at least make it more efficiently. And so even though the barrel's--fits together the same, uh, almost nothing is the same as what it was when my dad-- You know, very few--very few of the machines don't have significant changes to make the productivity of the employee three or four times greater than it was back in those days.

GREGORY: 'Cause it was a very--

BOSWELL: --in man hours per barrel, we're about, uh--because there's a l-- you know, we're about a third the man hours that my dad had in a barrel, yet I think the attention to the detail's even better now than it was then. In fact, I know it is, because the percentage leakers are a lot, lot less than they were back in those days. So-- But my dad was a great man. I'm not taking anything away from him. He was a better businessman than I'll ever be, I promise you.

GREGORY: And you made it an international company, didn't you?

BOSWELL: Yes, yes.

GREGORY: So how did that come about?

BOSWELL: Wow. Well, my mother gave my first wife and I a trip to Europe as a wedding gift. And I think that broadened my horizons. It made me think in a much bigger scope. So, so--and, and when I was in Europe, I s-- I saw, uh, 00:26:00French barrel makers. (laughs) And, and so then when I had the opportunity, and the, and the wherewithal to go to France and, and, uh, build a barrel factory, I did so. So I think it was, uh, the travel that, uh, that I did in early age that--in Europe that, uh, spurred us to become international. 'Cause I had the ambition. I wanted to be the, you know, the biggest and the best whatever I did. That's kind of a--the way of the DNA thing. But, uh, but by traveling in Europe, that my mother paid for, uh, for my wife and I, I think was probably the turning point. That was probably the, the, the, the-- That was probably when I started thinking internationally in my, in my outlook toward the business. And then when we got to where the--we could afford it, you know, where we had enough 00:27:00money and, and, uh, personnel, then I went international.

GREGORY: And where, where did you launch operations?

BOSWELL: In France, first, for the wine industry, because the French are the kings in the, in the wine barrel business. Uh, the French oak has, uh, a lot of, um, characteristics that are really good for wine, uh, that American oak doesn't have. The French oak has it. And so, um--and because the freight's so high, I tried to import--I've imported logs, uh, by the, uh, container load, and that freight was just, you know, killer. But I got--but I learned how to use the wood. Um, French oak is a lot different than American oak. It doesn't, uh, have the same physical characteristics, so I had to change the way we make barrels. I had to learn how to make barrels using the French oak, and, and the --------(??). I thought I could use my American techniques and just kill all these French, uh, uh, barrel makers, coopers, and--you know, because, you know, I said, "Boy, they're wasting on labor." But then I found out that they were 00:28:00right, and, and I had--and I, I learned by, uh, by going over there and spending time there. But, uh, the, the--I think the travel when I was a child, and that was brought--that was really paid for by my mother--and I say child; a, a young adult, um, with my first wife--I think, uh, broadened my horizons and, and gave me an international perspective.

GREGORY: And from France, were, were there other expansions?

BOSWELL: Uh, we are in Chile, and, uh, in Santiago, Chile we have a, a, a facility, and, uh, in Spain we have a strong presence in Spain with, uh, uh, warehouses in, uh, close, uh, connections, in close connections, whether we have, uh-- We have real close relationships with coo-- the coopers in Spain. And then, uh, we're in Australia, like I said, in New Zealand, in, uh, South 00:29:00Africa, in Cape Town, South Africa, uh, pretty much wherever there's wine or spirits, uh, we have a presence.

GREGORY: How does--w-what are the different relationships like between working with people in the bourbon industry versus, say, working with the wine industry?

BOSWELL: Wow. Well, when you're t-- when we're working in the bourbon industry, we're talking tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands of barrels, and in the wine industry we're talking ten barrels, and hun-- hundred--hundreds of barrels. The volume is totally different, and the, um-- So, so the bourbon industry just, just, you know-- And there's nobody in the wine in-- in the--in the wine industry uses anywhere near the number of barrels that Jim Beam uses, for example. I mean, they'll use-- So it, it, it's a--the volume's a huge 00:30:00difference. There's a huge difference. Did that answer your question?

GREGORY: Uh--

BOSWELL: --I kind of got lost in it.

GREGORY: Partially. Um, I, I was wondering more the, um, the interpersonal dynamics. I mean, the--

BOSWELL: --oh, the personal relationships?

GREGORY: Yeah, and, and, and--

BOSWELL: --wow.

GREGORY: --and the--

BOSWELL: --that's a really good question. Uh, I've been on float trips with guys in the bourbon industry, and guys in the wine industry. Uh, when I come here, um, I always stay in motels. I always stay in motels. I don't stay with the--with the--with my cus-- in my customers' homes, either place. Um--

GREGORY: I guess what I'm asking is, you know, the, the bourbon industry has maybe a stereotype of being good ol' boys, um, whereas the, the wine industry would be much more refined and--

BOSWELL: --you think about it being more sophisticated--

GREGORY: --and that sort of-- Yeah.

BOSWELL: I think that's wrong. The bourbon industry is very refined. 00:31:00There's--there's as much science goes into making bourbon as there is going in making wine, at least as much. The, um-- The wine tastings, because there's such a huge variety of flavors, and, and grapes--see, bourbon is much more, um, narrow in its--in its flavor profiles, so it's, it's not near as broad a spectrum, you know, like, you know, in wines you've got the ports and then you've got the chardonnays and then you've got the sauvignon blancs, and, and there--you know, the cabernet sauvignon, and the, you know, the--and the merlots. And then you've got the different areas of the world where those fruits come from, and they taste different. In bourbon, it's Kentucky bourbon, and now we're talking about--then you say, "What's the difference between, you know, one Kentucky distiller's product and another in blind tastings?" I have--I'm challenged to know the difference, but in blind tastings I can sure 00:32:00tell the difference between a--between a cabernet sauvignon and a merlot. And I can tell the difference, too, even more so, uh--you know, from the source of the grapes I can tell the, the differences, too, easier than I can source of the corn. I think that when you distill the--with--the ma-- when you take the mash and go through the process of making bourbon, uh, it's, it's more uniform. You know, I think the, the, the, the flavor profile differences are a lot different in wine than they are for bourbon. Did I answer the question?

GREGORY: Um-hm.

BOSWELL: I kind of got lost sometimes in my answers. I get talkin' too much.

GREGORY: Um, so back to the family. When, when did you start to involve your children in the business?

BOSWELL: Oh, as soon as they were ten, you know, nine, ten years old. Soon as they could travel with me, they're--you know, they'd jump in the-- They'd jump on the air-- airplane and go with me, and talk to Jim Beam. My son, Brad, I 00:33:00think when he was ten or twelve he was sitting with me in negotiations. It was from a very, very, very early age.

GREGORY: So you were trying to pass along that wisdom like you had gotten from your father?

BOSWELL: Oh, absolutely. No, I wanted Brad to be the best there ever was, you know. My dad wanted me the be-- wanted me to be the best there ever was, so he trained me as well as he possibly could, and I trained my son Brad as well as I possibly could. I would've done the same thing for my other children, uh, Amy and Joe, but they chose to go in different directions professionally.

GREGORY: So what were some of those early trips with Brad like? Where, where did you guys go, in, in, in addition to talking to Jim Beam, for example?

BOSWELL: Oh, gosh. Well, we would go to our stave mills, and out in the forest, and he learned about the timber, uh, that goes into the barrel first. 00:34:00And then he--then, uh, of course, uh, the, the machine shops, where we build our machinery, uh, he was intimately involved-- You know, he could see all that when he was a kid growing up. He was a natural engineer, as well, just, you know, it's in his blood like it is--just DNA like it is in me. And, uh, so he would--he, he saw where the machinery was manufactured. He, uh, saw the, the mills. Uh, I took him to, uh--I think I took Brad on a worldwide basis to see mills throughout the world. He had a--he had a much broader, uh, perspective than I did when--at the same age. You know, he was traveling in Europe to, to, to facilities that we owned, and that we sold raw material to, when--whereas I only went to, basically to, to one customer, and maybe one or two customers, Jim 00:35:00Beam and a little bit to Heaven Hill. That was about it for my dad. He had basically--I think 83 percent of our product went to Jim Beam. So it was, uh, a lot different. And we sell all over the world to everybody. I think Jim Beam takes maybe 40 percent of our production to less, less than that, maybe 30 percent.

GREGORY: What do you think it is about Kentucky and bourbon? Why, why has it been such a strong, traditional bond?

BOSWELL: Wow. I think it's Kentucky Bell. (laughs) I think it's Kentucky Bell. I think that--I think that--I, I'm being facetious, but, but in reality, you know, Kentucky's got the--you've got to have water, the right water sources, and Kentucky's got the right limestone for the water, which is really, really, really important, and then Kentucky has the corn, really high quality corn. And so I think when you have high quality corn and you have high quality water you can make good bourbon. And you have to have seasons. You have to have the four seasons so the--for the maturing of the, of the bourbon, uh, in the warehouses. 00:36:00So you have to have the hot summers, you know, and, and then the cold winters. And it's nice to have a large variation in temperature between, uh, the nighttime and, and daytime. So in the hot summer months--we call them Indian summers, you know, when it's nice and cool in the evening, it's hot in the noontime--then you get these tremendous temperature fluctuations, and if you're on the top floor of the warehouse, especially top floor, you get a tr-- it gets really hot, like 120 degrees in the summertime, and then it drops--it can drop in the evening down to, uh, 50 degrees. That temperature fluctuation makes the whiskey, the pressure in the barrel fluctuate, so when the temperature gets warm, the air space above the whiskey in the barrel--see, here's the barrel, here's the whiskey level right here--that air space, when that warms up, it expands, and it pushes that whiskey out into the wood, and then when it contracts, when it cools in the evening, it literally sh-- the whiskey comes out 00:37:00of the wood, back into the barrel, so it's constantly moving back and forth. And, and, and if you're in the top warehouses, where it gets really hot, you get extreme, am-- am-- af-- uh, uh, amount of whiskey going into the wood and coming back out, and if you--and, and if you go into the warehouse and you draw whiskey out of those top barrels, in the--in the top of the warehouse, they'll be darker in color than they were--than they are off the bottom, and they'll taste a lot more woody. So, of course, the--the--in, in the--in the bourbon industry they blend that, but, uh, but there's quite a difference. So, uh, the mechanics of how the barrel works is, is, is, uh, is very interesting.

GREGORY: Um--(clears throat)--Fred Noe likes, likes to say that, you know, 95 percent of the world's bourbon is made in Kentucky. I don't know where that other 5 percent comes from, but I wouldn't drink it. (laughter)

BOSWELL: I can't say that, 'cause I do have customers in Indiana. (laughter)

GREGORY: But there--as you're saying, there is something unique about this environment--

BOSWELL: --limestone.

GREGORY: --that makes, makes it --------(??)--

BOSWELL: --yeah, it's, it's the water, limestone, and it, it's, it's the limestone, which gives you the right kind of water, gives you the right pH, and, uh, and it's the ex-- it's the fluctuation of temperature. You have to have that fluctuation of temperature from, from nighttime to daytime, nighttime to daytime, 'cause it--that's always making those warehouses cool and warm, and so that makes that--makes the whiskey move in and out of the barrel. And that's, uh--and then every time it moves in it picks up some flavor.

GREGORY: Um, another aspect of, of Kentucky bourbon is this multigenerational family connection--

BOSWELL: --yes.

GREGORY: --and in a lot of these companies, and between the companies. Is that unique in, in business, do you think?

BOSWELL: Mm-- No. You see it in other industry. You--we see it in other industries, too, but I think it's, it's, uh, more--but it's very marketable in 00:39:00the bourbon industry, 'cause we think about tradition, and think about--we want to maintain the quality and maintain the uniformity of the product, who, in bourbon, we don't try to constantly improve the, the, the barrel. We don't try to constantly change the flavor of the bourbon. We try to constantly maintain that, that flur-- that, that flavor that's already there. We're not trying to change the product. We're just trying to maintain and keep it, keep it to what it is, because it's very, very good. It's very successful. People like it. It's like Coca-Cola. You don't go change the formula of Coke. You don't go change the formula of bourbon, either.

GREGORY: So, um, you have a multi-generation--

BOSWELL: --or--and the flavors change when you change the water source, see. So, so, uh, I think that, uh, bourbon's here to stay in Kentucky.

GREGORY: So you have a multigenerational family business.

BOSWELL: Yes, sir.

GREGORY: A lot of these bourbon distillers are multigenerational--

BOSWELL: --yes.

GREGORY: --family business. Um, does that make it easy to work together, that, that you've got your father, you, your son working with, you know, grandfathers--

BOSWELL: --definitely.

GREGORY: --fathers, and sons?

BOSWELL: Sure, sure.

GREGORY: How has that played out?

BOSWELL: 'Cause they're old friends. I mean, you know, like, I knew his dad. I knew--I knew--I, I--my dad knew-- My dad did business with Freddy's dad, you know. Freddy's grandfather, my dad did business with. My son Brad does business with Freddy. Isn't that interesting?

GREGORY: So what does that mean? How, how does that make for better business relationships when you've got that kind of dynamic?

BOSWELL: Well, it's--you know, you're, uh-- You know each other very well, and you, you can anticipate, um-- You know what the e-- you know what the expectation-- I know what the expectation of my customer is that way. I mean, I really know it, not--because it's not just--not just for what he said last week, but what his granddad said, because they, they want consistency. We want 00:41:00consistency. We want that same product that's been made for years. We don't want to be changing it, uh, and we understand that. That, that's, uh-- The people side of it's an important part of it, that, that that consistency, you know--that we have the same--we're shooting at the same goal all the time, and, and we're so close. Did I answer the question or did I get sidetracked?

GREGORY: Tell me about being close. What do you--what do you mean? About being close?

BOSWELL: Oh, close with a customer?

GREGORY: Um-hm.

BOSWELL: Oh. Well, you know, when I knew, uh, when he's unhappy, he's going to ex-- tell me. He's going to tell me what he--what the problem is. He's going to say, "John," he said, "I--you know, we're getting too many wormholes," or "We're getting--" Probably he's not going to just say, "Well, John, get out of here." He's going to try and work with me, and, and, and, and by the same 00:42:00token, I know what he wants because I've been working with him for, you know, four gen-- for almost a hundred years. So when you're working with the people for a long period of time, in the industry, you know, for generations, then it's--then, then, then you're, you're clo-- more closely aligned to their way, their way of thinking, and what their wishes are are my wishes. I mean, who--when I taste whiskey--when Brad tastes whiskey, he's better than I am. When we taste the product, we know pretty much what the customer wants. We can tell you, you know, we're off base here. We're--this is a little off-color. And, and, and we know--of course, know--we know how to correct that, in most cases. Sometimes--sometimes we don't really know, but usually we know what-- Usually, when there's a problem, we know what the problem is, and we know how to correct it. And, uh, we're closely aligned with their thinking, and their 00:43:00expectations, because we've worked with them for, you know, a hundred years. I mean, it's a big--a lot of difference. You know, we, we're part of the industry.

GREGORY: And so, so looking back over your entire career, what would you say are your proudest accomplishments, your biggest accomplishments?

BOSWELL: Wow. Well, I'm a Christian, so I have to get that in this interview. (laughs) Uh, accepting Jesus Christ as my savior was the greatest thing I ever did, and it changed my life forever. And, and, and in the--and in the business, you know, there is--even though we're in the whiskey barrel business, there is no conflict whatsoever. Uh, I try to honor the Lord in, in whatever I do in the bu-- the business world, and I think that that's--that transition, when I made that transition to Christianity, was my greatest accomplishment in the--in my career was to do that in a, a way that honors the Lord. And, uh, uh, I know 00:44:00that doesn't sound like appropriate talk from this interview, probably, but, uh, that's--that was my greatest accomplishment was to become a Christian businessman in this industry, and, and, uh, nurture, nurture that faith. With our employees, we have at, at--for example, uh, in our, uh, Salem, Missouri mill, we have a, a, a chapel out of the woods, and a place for employees to worship. And, uh, I try to set the--I try to have a Christian working environment.

GREGORY: So how do-- how does that play out in, in day-to-day business operations, to be a--a Christian business?

BOSWELL: Why am I so--yeah, why am I so proud of that, or so happy with that? Uh, I think that it--that it-- With my children, to, to raise them in a Christian way, uh, to, to honor God in what they do, uh, we, we pray at all of 00:45:00our, uh, company functions, uh, and either I will lead the prayer, or Brad will, generally. And, uh, it sets a tone that is a, a--one that's, uh, of goodness, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, uh, and I think that that's probably the best thing I ever did in our business was to introduce that atmosphere into whiskey barrel manufacture. And, and I like to raise hell. (laughs) And I guess a lot of Christians--other Christians do, too, 'cause that's probably, you know-- But, uh, but I, I, I like to drink. I like to have fun, you know. Uh, I like to go to the, you know, party and get loud, and, uh-- But then, at the same time, uh, there's a certain time that--there's a certain time that--and a certain thing, and we had a little, you know, thing inside my heart that says it 00:46:00needs nurturing, and that's--uh, and so, so I think we all have that, and so one of the things I--you know, to ask, well, what did I do that--am I most proud of in the industry, was probably building that chapel in, in Salem, Missouri for our employees to have a place to worship. That's kind of a tearjerker, isn't it? It's, it's a sweet thing.

GREGORY: I certainly remember wine mentioned in the Bible. I don't remember bourbon--

BOSWELL: --spirits. (laughs)

GREGORY: --being in the Bible.

BOSWELL: Spirits, spirits are for, uh-- It is mentioned, and it's for, uh, you know, for, uh, for, for health purposes. Yeah, to be used for good for your health, not in a negative way. Uh, it's not--it's not mentioned, uh-- It can be, you know, but it's--it says to be used for our health.

GREGORY: Um, you're in--

BOSWELL: --"strong drink" is the word they--that they use for, uh--that's used in, in the--in the Bible. Doesn't say, you know, whiskey. Doesn't say high-proof alcohol. It says "strong drink." But they had it in those days, 00:47:00too. They had distilled spirits back, you know, two thousand years ago.

GREGORY: Now, you're in the Bourbon Hall of Fame, correct?

BOSWELL: Yes.

GREGORY: When, when were you inducted?

BOSWELL: I'm sorry, I'm not good with dates. It was, you know, ten years ago.

GREGORY: And what was that like for you?

BOSWELL: I was surprised. I was very, very pleasantly surprised, that I--and I felt honored. Uh, the fellows that were in there, you know, uh, like Booker and, and, and like, um, now Jim Rutledge, um, I had great respect for. And, uh, I felt really honored. You know, we, we are--we are a major player because of the flavor, s-- the flavoring comes from our barrel, the bulk of the flavoring. And, of course, that's, you know--when you're selling bourbon, you're selling the flavor. And so I really feel like we're a powerful part of the industry. And then when--and when they brought me into the Hall of Fame, it made me feel 00:48:00like, you know, wow. You know, they recognized this in a very, very big way, and I felt proud for, uh, our company, and, and appreciative to the industry.

GREGORY: I read on, on one of the company websites about the barrel is kind of the silent partner in distilled spirits.

BOSWELL: Yeah, very much so, yeah. Yeah, if you drink white dog, you know, it's just, uh--it's, you know, not potable. But, uh, you know, you put, put it in a barrel for, you know, four, five, six, eight years, it gets pretty tasty, gets to be very desirable. And, uh, that's our job.

GREGORY: So what do you--what are your hopes for a fifth generation of Boswells in the company--

BOSWELL: --wow.

GREGORY: --in the family business?

BOSWELL: I see 'em coming on. You know, they-- they're gonna be in the business. One of 'em's here today, you know. He's--Seth's going to be in the 00:49:00business. I can just feel it, you know. He loves it. Uh, and that gives me great, great pride, makes me feel humble to know that, uh, you know, that, that what, what I carried for a generation, uh, is being carried by my son, and he's preparing his children for it, so that makes me really proud of the family. Family business!

GREGORY: I, I assume that, uh, among your employees you also have some multigenerational--

BOSWELL: --sure.

GREGORY: --relationships.

BOSWELL: Sure.

GREGORY: Um, anything you want to say about those?

BOSWELL: Well, yeah. I mean, uh, we have many situations where a guy's granddad worked for us, and that's--you know, and, and then the father, now the son's working, or the daughter. And, uh, that makes--that's a special bond, too. It makes it a stronger bond. You know, I mean, uh, it, it, it's not a 00:50:00casual relationship, but it's a deep, long-term relationship with the families. Uh, and we have several, several of those in our company, more in Missouri than, than here in Kentucky, because, of course, we, we, we've only been here since, what, uh, been only here thirty years, but in Missouri we've been there a hundred years.

GREGORY: Do you expect it to be there for a hundred years more?

BOSWELL: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we're not going away. We're not selling out. We're a family business, and we're going to stay that way. I think my son feels that even stronger than I do, and I'm sure my grandchildren will, too. The family business is very special. It's identity. When you get up in the morning, you know, you--you've--you, you, uh, you're not just going to work for the fellow, just having the job. You know, you're, you're, uh, carrying on a family tradition.

GREGORY: When you look at all these various bottles here--

BOSWELL: --mm-hmm.

GREGORY: --in, in the case, and the different brands that you guys have worked with, and are working with, how does that make you feel?

BOSWELL: Very proud. I mean, you know, especially of my son Brad, who's--(laughs)--s-sitting there beside 'em, but, uh, you know, we've, we've developed--they--we've worked with them on several of those products to give them the product that they were wanting, you know, that, that we actually played a part in the flavor profile, a big part. We just didn't sell 'em a generic barrel; we sold 'em a barrel that was designed, uh, for that product, and that's really cool. I'm proud of that.

GREGORY: In fact, I guess, your, your father worked with Bill Samuels, Sr. to help develop Maker's Mark, is that correct?

BOSWELL: Uh, I don't--I wasn't around. (laughs)

GREGORY: But, but Brad worked with--?

BOSWELL: I worked with--you're working with Rob, Rob, Rob. Brad worked with Rob. I worked with Bill, but his junior. I--

GREGORY: --um-hm.

BOSWELL: I worked with Bill, Jr. Rob is a third, and so--but his dad, uh, I did not work with--I did not work with him. And I can remember Bill, Jr. coming out to Missouri, talking to us, talking to my dad's office, with my father, and he would just--Bill was just getting in the business, bus-- junior. I don't think I remember Bis-- Bill Senior. In fact, in those days, we were only, uh, uh, a very, very small part of the industry. You know, we were a small player. We were like, uh, less than 10 percent.

GREGORY: And now how much of the industry are you?

BOSWELL: Probably sixty. I'm saying--I'm going to say sixty. Of the bourbon--of the bourbon industry, about 60 percent, fifty-five or sixty.

GREGORY: So my last question for you is, uh, how do you drink your bourbon?

BOSWELL: Good question. I drink it about fifty-fifty with water, on ice. I like it chilled, and sometimes just a little twist of lemon, a little twist of lemon sometimes, and just like a hint. You know, just a little hint around the rim is-- Because--so when you smell it you get a little lemon, and then you get that nice, sweet, soft bourbon.

GREGORY: Great.

[End of interview.]