Interview with Antoinette "Toni" Stringer, July 16, 2014

ARD: Good afternoon. Today is July 16th, 2014. My name is Constance Ard. I am here with Judge Toni Stringer, and this is an interview in the Legacy of African American Judges in Kentucky. We are located in, um, the office of Judge Stringer in Jefferson County, Kentucky. And, um, to begin, Judge Stringer, would you please, uh, for the record give us your legal name?

STRINGER: My legal name is Joan Antoinette Stringer.

ARD: Thanks.

STRINGER: That's what my mother gave me when I was born.

ARD: (laughs) Thank you very much. And when and where were you born?

STRINGER: I was born on April 4th, 1956 in St. Joseph's Infirmary, right here in Louisville, Kentucky.

ARD: Okay. And, um, born and raised here in Louisville? Did you--

STRINGER: Yes.

ARD: --live anywhere else?

STRINGER: Uh, I lived in Indianapolis for a while after I went to law school. And I went to IU [Indiana University] Bloomington Law School. So, uh, I practiced in Indianapolis for maybe 18 months--

ARD: Really? (??)

STRINGER: --and then came back here to Kentucky.

ARD: All right.

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: Well, before we get into that, uh, tell us a little bit about the community here where you grew up.

STRINGER: I grew up in the west end of Louisville, where I still live--in the west end of Louisville. And I went to Catholic school for the first six years of my education, then went to Jefferson County public schools. Went to Russell Junior High School, and it was 18th and Madison then. It's an apartment complex now, for seniors. (laughs) I went to Central High School, then I went to Kentucky State University. And then, from there, went to law school at IU Bloomington.

ARD: Okay, and--

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: --um, as you were growing up here, what, uh, what type of, uh, student were you? What was the community like-----------(??)

STRINGER: I was kind of a nerd, and I was kind of an egghead. So, I was in the top ten in my high school graduating class. Think I was, like, number four. So, yeah, I was one of those folks that was kind of nerdy in school, so--at 00:02:00least that's what my husband tells me, anyway. (laughs) But, uh--and he didn't even go to high school with me. But that's beside the point. Uh, (laughs) so I guess you could call me one of those folks who was, uh, motivated to do well.

ARD: Okay.

STRINGER: My mother was a teacher. My father was a cartographer. And education was something they stressed a lot. If you came home with a report card with, like, four As and two Bs, they wouldn't say, "Oh, is--great job you got the As." They'd wonder why you had those two Bs. So, there was always something--you know, something there that kept them pushing us to do more. And since my older sister--I have five siblings. One that's one year ahead of me. And so, they always made comparisons in school, all my teachers did, because she was more of a nerd than I was. She was a math major, all that, so--and she was 00:03:00a National Merit Scholarship finalist and all that. So, they expected me to do the same thing. So, there was that competitive type thing then. So, kept me going.

ARD: And, um, obviously, education was a value that your parents pushed on you as a--or felt--

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: --was important to you as a child.

STRINGER: Oh, yes.

ARD: What other values did they instill in you?

STRINGER: Uh, they instilled in me a sense that, uh, you had to give something back to the community. So, they always had us involved in some form of voluntary activity. Like, my mom used to get all these little packets where she would go collecting money for things like the Kidney Foundation and the Heart Association, and all those things. She'd get all the packets, then she'd give them to me to go do the collecting, so--but, uh, one of the things she liked to say all the time is that volunteer work was the rent you pay for being here. 00:04:00So, that was one of the things she instilled in me, too. So, I did do a lot of different things that were community based. So--(laughs)

ARD: And, um, obviously you were a good student in high school. Um, what made you decide to go to law school after--well, first, let's talk a little bit about your time at KSU [Kentucky State University].

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: What did you study there?

STRINGER: Uh, by the time I got to Kentucky State, I had already decided I wanted to go into law.

ARD: Um-hm.

STRINGER: And so, I was looking to see what kind of stuff would I need to get me ready for law school? And, interestingly enough, I majored in grammar and composition and minored in theater arts, because I always wanted to be a litigator, so--course, I got interested in law from watching shows like Perry Mason, Judd, for the Defense, all those different little law shows--lawyer shows 00:05:00that were in vogue back in the sixties and seventies. That kind of thing. That's what got me interested. And then, uh, I got more interested when I would look at the news every now and then and see Ernie Jasmin doing closing arguments. They had little snippets of his closing arguments, and they called him the preacher for the prosecution. And so, one of my goals early was to be on the opposite side of a case with Mr. Jasmin, since I thought I knew as much about my Bible as he knew about his. I figured he could be the preacher for the prosecution and, um, I could be rather vocal for the defense in the same line. But I never actually got to practice against him. I did work at the Commonwealth Attorney's Office when he was first assistant. In fact, he was instrumental in my getting there. And, uh, he and J. Michael Brown. So, um, he was instrumental in my getting there. And I did co-chair some cases with him, 00:06:00but I never got to prosecute against him. (laughs)

ARD: You sound regretful. (both laugh)

STRINGER: That was one of the things I always wanted to do, but never had an opportunity to do.

ARD: Yeah.

STRINGER: So--

ARD: It--it's very interesting that you chose the theater studies in KSU--

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: --at KSU to help prepare for law school.

STRINGER: Well, if you stop and consider it, if you go to trial, it's kind of like a theatrical production. And you're the director, if you're the prosecutor, uh, for your part of the case, anyway, because you have your presentation of evidence, you have your opening statements and closing arguments. Love those, because they were like soliloquies that you got to do. But, uh, yeah, so--

ARD: And that--that's a very astute take, though. I mean, did you have someone that was a mentor to you that was in the legal profession, or did you just--

STRINGER: When--

ARD: --kind of--

STRINGER: When I went to college?

ARD: Yeah.

STRINGER: No, I just kind of--

ARD: You just knew that.

STRINGER: --thought of that on my own.

ARD: That's amazing.

STRINGER: So--

ARD: Good for you.

STRINGER: Yeah. (laughs)

ARD: That's very astute.

STRINGER: But--but, uh, I--I guess that probably if I were to say anyone was instrumental in that, it would've been my mother.

ARD: Um-hm.

STRINGER: because a lot of folks don't know it, but I was very shy as a child. In fact, I didn't want my siblings to look at me. I'd go and say, "They're looking at me!" So, my mother got me involved in theater to get me out of my shyness. She got me involved in public speaking and got me involved in, like, uh, oratorical contests and things like that to get me out of being shy. And it--it worked. (laughs)

ARD: Um, oh, tell us a little bit about the environment of your law school.

STRINGER: When I went to law school at IU, it was kind of like a culture shock for me, because I had gone to predominantly black schools in the public school 00:08:00system. Russell was pretty much a hundred percent black. Central was a hundred percent black at the time. Kentucky State was predominantly black at the time, because I graduated from Kentucky State in 1978. And when I got to IU Bloomington, IU Bloomington had 25,000 students, of which only about thirteen percent were black, okay? You could take Kentucky State and put it right in the middle of IU. Thats how much difference there was in the size of the campus, because Kentucky State was small. But IU was massive. And when I got to law school, the first day, when we had orientation, there were, uh, I think, uh, 600 students that started in our class. And the dean of students said, "Look around you. Look in front of you, look on both sides of you, and look behind you, 00:09:00okay?" Said, "Now, the majority of folks that you see here today aren't going to be here to finish. So, it's--all of you came from the cream of the crop from college. But here, somebody's got to be at the bottom. (laughs) And y'all aren't accustomed to that. So, everybody's not going to make it. So, you look around you right now, because two out of three people that are sitting around you aren't going to be here next year." And there was one student who, after orientation, withdrew that same day. Just couldn't deal with the pressure. Okay. But, um, yeah, it was like a culture shock. And if you ever saw the movie Paper Chase, that was pretty close to accurate in terms of the way they would do things in terms of the teaching methodologies. If you were not used to the Socratic method of teaching, it was a very interesting type thing to endure 00:10:00when you first got there, and--because, uh, law school's different. You were accustomed to folks giving you lectures and that kind of thing and telling you what they wanted you to know. But in law school, they ask you what you knew and how you knew it and why you thought you knew what you thought you knew, and then let you know that you didn't know as much as you thought you did. So, it was interesting. Um, and that's the only educational experience that I have had where they teach you everything backwards and they only give you one exam for every class. Only one. That was kind of stressful. (laughs) The first semester, it was kind of stressful. But after you got accustomed to the teaching method, it wasn't too bad.

ARD: Okay. Uh, what do you remember most about law school?

STRINGER: Uh, the thing I remember most about my law school experience was that we had twenty-five African American students in our class when we started. We graduated, uh, seventeen, I believe, out of that twenty-five. And after our class, they never had another class with that many minority students again.

ARD: And what year did you graduate law school?

STRINGER: I graduated law school--1982. And after that class of twenty-five, the following year--I started in '79. And the following year, in 1980's class, I think they had, like, ten African American students who came in the class; '81's class came in with either six or seven. But it seemed like the numbers started to decrease instead of increase after they had us. We had our own study groups. We were active in all kinds of activities and things. We were fairly 00:12:00radical. So, you know, (laughs) but there's strength in numbers. So, we could do a lot more than a whole lot of the classes before us.

ARD: Um-hm.

STRINGER: And, uh, we had a couple of folks who were on bar review, things like that. I wasn't on bar review myself. But, yeah.

ARD: And so, you mentioned that, um, you--because of the strength of numbers, uh--

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: --of your class, you could be radical.

STRINGER: Oh, yeah. We were fairly radical.

ARD: Give me an example.

STRINGER: Um, we did have, uh, various things that we protested for. Like, if we thought things were not right, if we thought we were being discriminated against, we would have our own different little protests and things. We would take our demands to the dean of students and all the other things, we'd go on with protesting. But, uh, we were nowhere near as radical as other folks might have been before us. But we did enough stuff for folks to take notice that we 00:13:00were there. So, we did get some things done. And it's been only thirty years. I can't remember exactly what we did, but--(laughs) yeah.

ARD: And I--I appreciate the-----------(??)

STRINGER: Goodness, it doesn't seem like it's been that long.

ARD: (laughs) It hasn't.

STRINGER: Makes me feel so old just to say it.

ARD: (laughs) Um, what type of law did you practice when--when you got out of law school?

STRINGER: Criminal.

ARD: All right (??).

STRINGER: When I first went to law school, I said I wanted to be a domestic relations attorney. Then, after I got into law school and I saw some of the domestic relations clinics and things like that, and I saw people who would argue over the most miniscule things. I said, nope, don't think I want to do that. So, then I got interested in criminal law. And I--I just have a passion 00:14:00for criminal law. So, when I came out of--of law school, I started working at the public defender's office here in Louisville. I represented juveniles initially. And, uh, uh, I didn't stay here in Louisville very long because when I took the bar exam, I passed Indiana's bar exam first time, no problem. But Indiana's was all essay, okay? Loved essay questions, because you can do so much with an essay question. Even if you don't know everything they're asking about, you can let folks know what you do know in an essay question. When you have multi-state, you--you don't have as much wiggle room, because it's all objective. And I never tested well on objective tests. So, I didn't do too well on Kentucky's bar exam first time I took it. And, uh, they do have that, 00:15:00uh, that rule here that says if you have a foreign license, you can use your foreign license for eighteen months before you have to have one in Kentucky. So, I already had one from Indiana. So, I figured: passed Indiana's the first time. Kentucky's not going to be a problem, okay? So, I was working at the public defender's office. Took a whole week off from work to study for the bar exam. Took the bar exam the first time, didn't pass the bar exam the first time. Missed it by 1.2, okay? All right, so I figured I can pick up 1.2, no problem. Second time I took the bar exam, took a whole month off that time. Figured I only missed it by 1.2, I can pick up a point and a half anywhere, okay? Took it the second time, missed it by .225. Picked up the one point, just didn't pick up the rest, okay, at which time I said, "I don't need this. I 00:16:00have a license. I'll go to that godforsaken state across the river, practice over there." And that's when I moved to Indianapolis and worked for the state public defender's office there, okay, doing nothing but post-relief actions. Hated it. (ARD laughs) Okay. And so, I have to thank my mother, God rest her soul, for what I do now, because it was my mother who said, "Well, you're closing the gap. If you take the bar one more time, you'll pass it." But the three magic words that she said that made me go ahead and take it was, "I'll pay for it," okay? So, I did take the bar exam the third time, and I did pass it. And the rest, as they say, is history. I couldn't go and get sworn in with everybody else who passed the bar at that particular time because I was in the 00:17:00hospital having gall bladder surgery, at which time J. Michael Brown had asked me, "What would it take to get you to come back to Louisville and practice here with us?" And he, at that time, was the first assistant in the Commonwealth Attorney's Office with Todd Hollenbach. And so, I ask him, "What you got?" And he asked me if I would be interested in being a prosecutor. I said sure, I'd give it a shot. So, uh, I did go to visit at the Commonwealth Attorney's Office one day. And, stupid me, I wasn't thinking about it being an interview, because no one said it was. I hadn't brought a resume with me or anything like that and I wasn't thinking it was an interview. I just stopped by to visit before going back to Indianapolis. And I met Mr. Hollenbach. And, uh, I was in J. Michael 00:18:00Brown's office and we were chatting and things like that, and he asked me, Mr. Hollenbach did, what I thought of the death penalty. And I ask him, "Well, what would you think of someone being a prosecutor who was opposed to the death penalty?" because I was opposed to the death penalty, and so--and he told me, "Well, I could tell you all kinds of stories that would change your mind." "I don't think so." because I was on Death Penalty Taskforce with the state public defender's office in Indianapolis at the time. So, I'd heard about every horrible story he could've told me. Then, after he left the office, J. Michael said, "Don't you realize this was your interview?" And I said, "Oh, I hadn't thought about it like that." So, I figured, well, either they'll hire me or they won't, so--and they did. And so, I worked in the Commonwealth Attorney's Office for fourteen years after that. So, I came to the Commonwealth Attorney's Office in February of 1988 and worked there until I was appointed to the bench 00:19:00in January of 2000 by Governor Patton.

ARD: What, um, what are some of the differences in those roles between P.D. [public defender] and--and prosecutor?

STRINGER: Okay. As a public defender or as any kind of defense attorney, the only person that you're interested in is your client. You have to do what is in the best interest of your client, even if you don't believe that is what your client's best interest might be. If your client says, "This is what I want, this is what I want you to do for me," then, as their attorney, you represent them, you're supposed to promote their interests. And that's all well and good, but to me, it just wasn't quite enough. As a prosecutor, you represent the interests of the entire community. So, I could do more for more people as a 00:20:00prosecutor, I felt, because it would be just as much my duty to prosecute someone if the law said that this person is guilty of whatever they're charged with as it would be my duty to dismiss charges against someone if the evidence showed me that they should not be prosecuted for it. So, I felt like I was doing more for more people as a prosecutor. But as a judge, you do have the interests of everybody to balance. And you do what you feel is best for everybody. Not only the defendant, but also the victims and, uh, the entire community. So--

ARD: And hearing you describe it in that way harkens me back to what you said about your mother teaching you about the community.

STRINGER: Yes.

ARD: Do--do you have that sense of community, um, and volunteerism in mind as a--as a background to your service as a prosecutor?

STRINGER: Yeah, I did. Uh, in the prosecutors' office, I worked in a number of different capacities. Initially, I was in the general trial division where I just did everything from soup to nuts, and still did, uh, volunteer work in the community as a mentor to students at Central High School's law and government magnet. And I need to get back to doing that. I haven't done that in a while, but it's something I do want to get back to. Um, but I worked with them and, uh, I'm proud of a lot of the folks that I see right now. Like Angela Johnson, I was her mentor. (laughs) And, uh, uh, Denise Brown was one of the, uh, interns at the Commonwealth Attorney's Office, and I worked with her when she was doing her internship there, when she was a law clerk there. So, I'd like to think that I had some influence over the two of them. And, uh, some of the prosecutors that I work with now were children that I was a mentor for at 00:22:00Central. And it--it really dates me. Gosh! But, uh, after being in general trial, I went to the career criminal division. I was still doing the volunteer work and stuff that I did then. But then, after that, I was the liaison for the grand jury for three years. So, I was instrumental in telling folks in the grand jury--because I could give them advice about anything, and nobody could go back and ask them anything about what I told them. So, if they had cases that were coming in front of them that I didn't think had enough for us to sustain a conviction if it were to be indicted, I'd tell 'em, "Dismiss it. Dismiss the indictment. They can always bring it back later if they have additional evidence to support the charges. But what you got right now isn't going to do it." So, I could tell them that, or I could tell them that, uh, they should go 00:23:00ahead and indict stuff. I could recommend various different things. And they would look at me and say, "Yeah, what do you think?" And so, yeah. And so, uh, then, after that, I went to the domestic violence unit and did domestic violence cases, all of those family-related crimes, and the child sex abuse and all those other things. And I did that for eight years, so--and while I was doing that, I would do training for the police when they'd come in. And I would do training with other folks who might come in and testify and things like that to give them insights into what was going to be going on. Then, uh, after I got to the bench, I was still able to do other stuff with other people in other places. I had gotten an opportunity to work with, uh, the University of Arkansas sexual 00:24:00assault training program that they had. So, I could get to go around the country doing, uh, sexual assault training programs, and training police and other folks in various things that went on in the court system. So, I can still do a little bit here and there, yeah.

ARD: What, um, is the most memorable case you tried as a lawyer?

STRINGER: The most memorable case I tried as a lawyer was, uh, domestic violence case involving a guy in Fort Knox who had gotten so upset with his wife that he killed their eight-month-old daughter by--he did all kinds of stuff to her--I mean, in terms of bouncing her off the wall here and there--and then he bent her backwards until her head touched her ankles and broke her back. That 00:25:00was the most memorable. Well, I take that back. Well, that was one of 'em. And, uh, another one that was memorable was a DUI [driving under the influence] prosecution that I had done with a guy who had been drinking all day long and then decided to get behind the wheel of his car. And he was driving and he hit a pedestrian so hard that he severed her leg from her body. Her leg went flying up in the air and went, like, a hundred yards from where her body came to rest. And we had that trial, then after the jury came back and found him guilty of, uh--they found him guilty of, uh--they didn't find him guilty of wanton murder. They found him guilty of vehicular manslaughter. Then, after that, one of my 00:26:00jurors had, uh, some kind of angina attack or something like that, and they had to take the juror to the hospital. So, we never got to do the penalty phase with that jury. We had to impanel a second jury to do the penalty phase of that trial. That one was the most memorable.

ARD: Thank you for sharing that. (STRINGER laughs) Um, what year did you come on the bench?

STRINGER: Two thousand.

ARD: -----------(??)

STRINGER: January, 2000.

ARD: As an appointee or?

STRINGER: I was an appointee.

ARD: Okay. And, uh, that was Governor--

STRINGER: Patton.

ARD: Patton.

STRINGER: Um-hm. So, I was appointed January 14th, 2000, and I had to run to retain that seat in the May primary of 2000. And then I came out of the primary--interestingly, folks didn't think I was going to come out of the primary because Audra Eckerle was one of my opponents at that time. Her father 00:27:00had been a district judge. So, she had all the name recognition and everything from that. And Claude Prather, who had been running, like, ad infinitum, almost as a perennial candidate--had a lot of rame--uh, name recognition at the time, too. And a lot of folks--if you had been putting odds on who was going to come out of the primary--a lot of folks that it was going to be Audra and Claude. So, they were surprised that I came out of the primary. (laughs) But, uh, it was me and Claude on the ballot in November, and I won in 2000. Didn't have any opposition in 2002, which I was grateful for. But then, I did have an opponent again in 2006. So, I did have to run for re-election at that time.

ARD: How did you learn to campaign?

STRINGER: Huh. That's a good question. I had not thought about it. Um, the 00:28:00Lord blessed me with a husband who had a knack for campaigning. He didn't have any experience doing anything at all, but he just had a natural feeling for it. And he could get me free publicity in all kinds of ways, because, uh, in 2000, Bill Clinton came to Louisville. My husband was there at the time that Clinton got here, and got on the news getting interviewed by somebody. Had on one of my t-shirts or something. Uh, he had nominated me for a Bell Award in 1999, which I was fortunate to get. And, uh, then in 2000, I nominated him for a Bell Award, which he was fortunate to get. And that's why they pre-tape the Bell Awards now, because his acceptance speech was basically a commercial for me. 00:29:00(laughs) So, every other word came out of his mouth with his acceptance speech was Judge Toni Stringer. So, yeah. So, I got free publicity all kinds of ways from that. And, um, then I had worked with some campaigns before. They were not judicial campaigns, but I--well, I did work with, uh, Ernie Jasmin's judicial campaign. So, I had a little bit of experience from that. But, uh, basically, where two or more were gathered, I was there. So, I guess that I have to be one of those who does say that where God guides, God provides, because I didn't have any real experience in campaigning.

ARD: And no real mentors on that one--

STRINGER: --no--

ARD: --either?

STRINGER: Uh-uh. As far as political consultants like everybody goes and gets today, I didn't have any money for that. So, I didn't bother with that. So, I 00:30:00figured it was just--it was just a blessing that I had folks who had the ability to do the stuff that needed to be done, because--and I did, most of all, of, uh, my political literature and stuff myself, on my computer. I designed my own signs, designed all my own stuff. So, uh, I don't know.

ARD: Oh, that's--that's, uh, a--a good thing that you won, based upon your--

STRINGER: Yeah.

ARD: --your lack of structural knowledge.

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: But it--it shows that effort matters.

STRINGER: Oh, yeah. So, it was really a grassroots type thing. But, yeah, um-hm.

ARD: So, what has been one of the most memorable cases that you've presided over as a judge?

STRINGER: Uh, in district court, you get a million and a half things a day to do. So, I can't say that any one case stands out over any others.

ARD: Um-hm.

STRINGER: If I were on the circuit bench, I probably would have all kinds of 00:31:00things that I could tell you. And I could tell you a million stories about all the stuff in district court, but nothing really stands out.

ARD: Okay.

STRINGER: So, let me think for a minute. Nope, nothing really stands out. (laughs)

ARD: And you only served at the district court level?

STRINGER: I've been doing--as, uh, active sitting judge--

ARD: Okay.

STRINGER: --I was, uh, in district court.

ARD: Okay.

STRINGER: In my senior status years, I've done district court and family court.

ARD: Okay.

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: And--and we've not really talked with a senior status judge before, so--

STRINGER: Oh.

ARD: --can you tell us a little bit about, um, what that is and how it came to be and--and what--

STRINGER: Okay.

ARD: --it entails?

STRINGER: The senior status program was a pilot program that had been put in place--I forget exactly what year it started, but it was a pilot program that ended January 31st of 2009. So, anybody who wanted to get into the senior 00:32:00status program had to do it before the sun set on the program. And the way the program was developed--it was, like, a senior status judge is kind of akin to a substitute teacher. You go where you're needed, okay? And it was an agreement that was made by the judges who were coming in--who were going to retire to work 600 days beyond retirement so that they could get an increase in retirement payment. And that would help to alleviate the congested caseloads that we had, because there had been a backload of cases, uh, that had just been piling up and clogging up the system. And, uh, there were not enough retired judges to come in and do those cases. So, they wanted to clear up some of the backlog. And then--and you have judges who go on vacation, go to judicial conferences, that kind of thing. Then you need somebody to come in and sub for them. And so, the 00:33:00senior status judges would do that, too. So, that's basically, in a nutshell, what the senior status program was about.

ARD: And, uh, is there something that you've presided over as a senior judge that really stands out?

STRINGER: Well, most of the stuff that I've done in senior status has been family court stuff. And the one thing that made me want to do family court stuff was because, at the time that I came into the senior status program, there were no African American judges in family court. So, the only African American face they see in family court is mine. For now, anyway. And that might change in November. But, for right now, I'm the only one they see. And, uh, there have been a whole bunch of things that I've seen on the dependency docket that, 00:34:00uh, can really mess you up. I did a case not long ago where there's a fourteen-day-old child that has three skull fractures. Actual breaks in the skull. And if you consider how soft a newborn child's skull is--takes a whole lot to break somebody's bones when they're only fourteen days old. Then you think about it and say what is it that a fourteen-day-old child could do to cause anybody to be so angry that they want to inflict that much pain on the child in the first place. But that's what you get in family court, so that's the one that kind of stands out for me the most right now.

ARD: Thank you for sharing that. Your retirement from the bench in 2009--

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: --coupled with Judge Martin's retirement, was highly publicized (STRINGER laughs) because it left no African American judges on the bench--

STRINGER: In district court.

ARD: --in Jefferson County.

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: What was the--that time like for you?

STRINGER: Um, well, in 2009--I came out when I did because my father was in his decline. My father--I lost my mom in 2008, and I lost my father in 2012. So, at the time that I came out, I did it partially because he needed a caregiver. And out of all of my siblings, I was the one in the best position to be that for him, so--and coming into the senior status program gave me an opportunity to do that. So, um, I had really had some mixed feelings about it at first, because I knew that there would be no African American judges in district court when I came out. But when I came out, there was a glut of senior status judges. And 00:36:00one of the things that helped me make that decision to come on out when I did was that they were not going to fill the vacancies immediately. They were going to let the folks who were retiring from their various divisions stay where they were and work senior status days in that same position, okay, until they filled the vacancy, so--and they were filling the vacancies in alphabetical order. So, I was the last one to come out, I was the last one to be replaced. So, uh, that made me feel better about doing it, because I knew that there was going to be a special election the very next year, and I was hoping that there would be someone else to take my place before I actually did come out of there. And, as luck would have it, there were the appointees that we had, because that's when 00:37:00we got Erica Williams in city court, okay?

ARD: And, um, during that time period, did people try to persuade you to stay on the bench?

STRINGER: People are still trying to persuade me (ARD laughs)--to stay on the bench. They're still trying to get me to run again. There were a lot of folks who were trying to get me to run for one of the vacancies in family court, so--and I thought about it for a minute or two. And I said "Well, they need to have some new blood. They need to have other folks to come in and step up and do these things, so--and then I thought I've done enough. I don't need to run anything--run for anything, not even the bus, so"--(both laugh)

ARD: Um, why do you think the number of African Americans in the legal field has remained relatively unchanged?

STRINGER: I really don't have answer for that. In terms of the number of folks in the legal field, there are more than I think that we realize. But they 00:38:00aren't in those positions where we see them as visibly. You've got your, uh, corporate counsel that you don't hear anything about. You've got the other ones who are working behind the scenes with other things. I think they're there, but they just aren't subject to as much exposure as some of the others are.

ARD: And, (clears throat) based upon that, this question may or may not, uh, resonate with you. But do you have any recommendations for increasing minority participation in the legal field?

STRINGER: Hmm. I think that if there were any recommendations I had that they are already being implemented. I mean, they're doing more to recruit African American students in law schools. They have programs now where they're doing more to retain folks that they get once they get 'em to make sure that folks do 00:39:00graduate and actually get into the practice. They have more programs now at not only college level but at high school level to try to get folks interested in the legal profession. There is not much more that can be done that I can think of than what's going on right now.

ARD: Um, can you discuss some of the community activities that you have been involved with beyond what we've already talked about--

STRINGER: Okay.

ARD: --or that, um, that you're thinking about doing as you continue your dedication to the community?

STRINGER: I'm still working with--uh, I still work every year with the LBA's [Louisville Bar Association] Summer Law Institute, where they have high school students come in every year, and they have their exposure to criminal cases and stuff. And they do their mock trials. I do judging for the mock trial for them 00:40:00every year, and I love it. And sometimes, I will be a judge for mock trial for Kentucky Mock Trial Association, and bring in high school students for that. Bellarmine and U of L [University of Louisville] have their mock trials, and they'll call on folks to come and sit and do those. Uh, my husband has started a crime prevention program for children called Prevention 2000, back in 2006. And we would go various, different places and teach children ways to protect themselves from victimization. And sometimes, we still do that. We don't do it as often as we did before. Uh, I teach classes at Sullivan. In the winter quarter, I teach criminal law and torts. And in the spring, I did do gifts and estates, so, I still try to get out there and do a lot of stuff. Uh, I do mediations now, uh, with Just Solutions. I don't do those as often as I could. 00:41:00And I still want to get back with students at Central, with the law and government magnet, and continue to work with them. Uh, let's see, what else can I do? (both laugh) Uh, hmm. Well, I don't think there's anything else right now that's on the horizon. If I think of something, I'll let y'all know.

ARD: Okay.

STRINGER: But--

ARD: I like that answer. (STRINGER laughs) Would you mind sharing your husband's name, since he seems to be such a--

STRINGER: --my husband's name is Donnie Morris, Senior.

ARD: Okay, thank you.

STRINGER: Yes. That's his picture back there with me. So, yeah.

ARD: Just wanted to make sure we got it on record--

STRINGER: Uh-huh.

ARD: --for legacy's sake.

STRINGER: Yes, Donnie Morris, Senior. And my mother--I--I don't have a day that goes by without somebody telling me, "Your mother was my teacher." So--so, yeah. So, her name was Barbara Stringer. So, she was a major influence in my life. My mom and my dad, both. So, yeah.

ARD: Very good. Um, just a couple more questions as we wrap--

STRINGER: Um-hm.

ARD: --this up. If you were speaking to a younger version of yourself, (laughter) what advice would you give?

STRINGER: What advice would I give a younger version of me? Okay. I would give a younger version of me the advice that if there's something you want to do, if there's something you have a passion for doing, don't be afraid to go for it, okay? Because you don't want to go through life having any regrets. You don't want to go through life saying what if I had done this or what if I had done that? And don't be afraid to fail, because failure teaches you a lot of things. Teaches you what to do next time. It teaches you sometimes that you need to be patient, okay? Because the first time I ran for judge was in 1998. 00:43:00I did not win when I ran in 1998. But all that showed me was that I needed to be patient, because it was not my time to be there yet. Doesn't mean it's not going to happen. Just means you might not be ready yet. There might be more things that you need to do. Or, you might need to go about things a different way. But learn from the experiences that you have and capitalize on those when you start to do something again. So, that's the advice I'd give myself.

ARD: Thank you.

STRINGER: Mm.

ARD: Is there anything you'd like to discuss that we have not talked about yet?

STRINGER: Well, I think I probably took things in different tangents and covered just about as much ground as I could--

ARD: Yeah.

STRINGER: --with what was going on. So, I can't think of anything that we might have missed. Um, the only thing that I would want to give honorable 00:44:00mention to were those judges before me that were instrumental in shaping me into the judge that I am. I used to practice in front of Judge Shope (??), and I had always said that if I got to the bench, I wanted to be like him, because I've seen good judges. I've seen bad judges. And when I started in practice, that was a time when most of the judges on the bench did not particularly like female attorneys. And there were a number of judges on the bench who didn't particularly care for minorities. So, you know they really loved me when I came in. So, there would be those who would love to have an audience so that they could belittle you, demean you, or just do whatever they could to try to break you in front of those folks. But Judge Shope was different. Judge Shope never 00:45:00berated you in front of a client. It was, uh, the--I don't think I ever heard him raise his voice to anyone. He was always courteous, he was always respectful, and, uh, I do have a case that I remember trying in front of him where I had a defendant who was charged with killing his wife. And he was sixty-three years old. He had all kinds of ailments and things like that. And, uh, his attorney--after he had been convicted of killing his wife, the jury recommended twenty years. His attorney came in, sensing (??)--said, "Well, if you give him twenty years, that's tantamount to giving him a life sentence. He can't do twenty years." And Judge Shope looked at him and said, "Well, twenty years is the minimum penalty that's available for this offense, and I have to 00:46:00impose the minimum penalty as recommended by the jury. So, sir, if you can't do the whole twenty years, just do as much as you can." (both laugh) But he's one of the only judges I've ever seen who could sentence someone to death and have them thank him for being as kind as he was. So, I said I wanted to be like Judge Shope. And, uh, then there was Judge McAnulty. I practiced in front of him, too. And I appreciated his wisdom and his wit. He had a wry sense of humor, and you had to know him to know when he was saying things that were really funny. And if you got him, you would get whatever he said all the time. And if I learned anything about running a political campaign, I'd have to credit Judge McAnulty with part of that, because he had a lot of savvy about him, too. 00:47:00He said he never put his picture on anything. He just put McAnulty and put a shamrock, because he figured folks would figure that he was one of the old Irish type folk and vote for him, and it worked for him. But, uh, he was great. And when I first got on the bench, the one who showed me the ropes and showed me what I was supposed to do in the capacity as judge was Judge Martin, um-hm. So, Judge Martin and I had practiced together. We had practiced against each other early in our careers. I was in the public defender's office, she was in the prosecutor's office. Both of us were in juvenile division. But she got appointed to the bench in, what, 1980-something. Well, she got appointed by Governor Jones. So, she had been on the bench for a while before I got there. So, she took me by the hand, told me everything I was supposed to do and how I was supposed to do it. So, I appreciate her for that. And then, there was 00:48:00Judge Clayton, who gave me some insights into family court when I started sitting here, when I got to my senior status days, because Judge Clayton is one of the only African American judges who went from every level, okay? So, she could tell me about district court, circuit court, family court, and now the court of appeals. So, I give her her props for that. Let me see. And then there was Judge Jasmin, who was my mentor when I was in the Commonwealth Attorney's Office, and he told me about some of the pitfalls that might have been around, okay, to watch out for. So, I think that covers pretty much all of 'em. So, uh-huh--

ARD: Thank you.

STRINGER: --that were here in Jefferson County, anyway, um-hm.

ARD: Well, thank you so much for your time and your story.

STRINGER: You are so very welcome. Well--

[End of interview.]