Interview with Walter Gay, May 22, 1984

WALTER GAY: So I think George, he’s standing on—that picture, by the way, at the end of that picture. George Earle.

CHARLIE HARDY: Ah.

GAY: Myself, Austin Norris, and Hobson Reynolds. Not Hobson Reynolds, Crystal Bird Fauset. Have you run across her in your research?

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: And maybe Marshall Shepard there. I don’t know.

HARDY: Right.

GAY: There may be holes in your information, in connection with it. But I would say that during that period, you might say that the roots were being sowed from which the harvest came later on. But I wouldn’t compare it to any time, like for example, the Civil Rights Movement became organized, and became marching, 00:01:00and protesting. That sort of thing.

HARDY: Right.

GAY: We were still getting the crumbs, if you asked me. I think [Governor George] Earle was a bit different, because he came from a background where he parents had, his forebears had been persecuted because of their religious beliefs. And you talk about the Civil Rights bill, I think it was Hobson’s. There was a motion to recall it from his desk. Even after, the legislature had 00:02:00passed it. The lobbies got together on it, particularly the lobbies having to do with public accommodations, and they were about to recall it. In fact, I think they had voted, and some of us got in touch with him, and he said, “Hand me that goddamned thing,” and signed it before the messengers came with the orders from the legislature recalling it. I think if you check that out, you’ll find that to be true. There were isolated incidents like that where we actually had friends who, but it wasn’t power on our part. Which, I think that’s the Hobson Reynolds bill, where they were-- avoid to recall it.

HARDY: Um-hm. Now once the bill was passed, there were some activities in the city. Men like Raymond Pace Alexander, and others, who would go into some of the restaurants. I guess some of the young Quaker youth groups with black and white members would go into some of the restaurants, and test the bill. Do you remember any of those, sit-ins or—

GAY: Nope. No, I don’t. I wouldn’t be surprised if Raymond probably went in on some of these. That was a fellow, I think I mentioned to you last time, that you can prob-, sometime get good service out of people in a cause while they are not interested in the cause per se, but interested in the way it applies to 00:04:00them, because Raymond had, was actually convinced, I think, that he was something apart from the Negro race. I wouldn’t say he liked the Negroes, like the Biddles are to the whites. And when they keep him out individually, he’s mad as a wet hen. But still, his complaints, his advocacy, really for himself, had some run over advantages to the race in general.

HARDY: I’ve heard that as being one of the complaints of the Old Philadelphia political and social leadership in the city. That there were problems, and that they were really more class conscious than race conscious.

GAY: I think you’re right.

HARDY: And in it more for personal gain and, and what little patronage there was 00:05:00available, rather than for the advancement of the race or just—

GAY: Some of that is true. No question about it. Raymond never left his race. Because that, after all, was the source of his independence, his law practice. And he didn’t have as much in the Caucasian race, as would have made him independent. But he was class conscious.

HARDY: Hm. Who would you say then were the leaders in the black community then? Who were the—

GAY: Around that time?

HARDY: Yeah. Who were the least concerned with personal advancement, and the 00:06:00most with the greater cause?

GAY: I would say that at that time, the heads of our great secret societies. You run into a fellow named Marcus, who was the head of the Elks. And the-- trying to think of the leader of the Knights of Columbus, or the Pythians [Knights of Pythias], or—In that period of time, I think you still had a lawyer here, a 00:07:00very well-to-do lawyer, ah whose training was not academically of the level of others, but who had acquired wealth, and he was vocal. I’m trying to think of his name. He had a wife who was quite articulate, quite vocal.

HARDY: Was he Washington Rhodes?

GAY: No.

HARDY: No?

GAY: Washington was a lovely chap. But no, he was not Washington Rhodes. Probably name will come to me as we come along. Mrs. Alexander could identify him very well, because she had some battles with the lady in question. When he 00:08:00died, he left a trust fund, which I think is still being administered. I remember when he first met me--when you’re young, you say foolish things. I was in Austin’s office, and he came in, Austin Norris, and he said, “What did you say your name was?” I told him. Then he scratched his head, and he said, “Hm. I never heard of you or your father. ” I said, “I never heard of you or your father, either.” (laughter) I shouldn’t have said that, but when you’re that age. But he, he-- I don’t think you’d say, and wouldn’t 00:09:00think of it, and he wasn’t accepted by the old-line Philadelphians, because as I say, he was rather boorish in some ways, but he was rich, and that covers a multitude of faults, as you know, and he would holler. There were three people, talking about--have you run into the first black magistrate?

HARDY: Amos Scott.

GAY: Yes.

HARDY: I would love to hear as much as I can get. Yeah, what can you tell me about Amos Scott?

GAY: I can’t tell you much, except that he too was well-to-do, and he had a certain amount of independence. But of the quadruple that was, which had the 00:10:00outstanding figures, Marcus, the head of the Elks, who was the best trained one of them, an imposing figure, and, oh yes, Ed Henry. You’ve heard of him, right? He was the second black magistrate—

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: I think you would say. And a picturesque character, and swashbuckler, ah, pretty independent, very independent fellow, ah, glamorous type who actually ran ahead of tickets. He would—he was a powerbroker in some ways. Let’s see, 00:11:00Scott, Marcus—not Scott—Ed Henry, Marcus, and the lawyer that I haven’t thought of right now, were three people during that period of time, who were certainly significant. And I think John Summers could probably tell you, could identify the lawyer that I’m overlooking. He was the wealthiest Negro lawyer of that period. And, well, maybe that didn’t say such, my, I think when he died, he left about 60 homes, real estate properties.

HARDY: Well, my curiosity is spurred now.

GAY: Hm.

HARDY: I guess Ed Henry was, was a controversial figure. In ’33, he jumped to 00:12:00the Democratic Party, and, and over the next ten years moved back and forth.

GAY: He was.

HARDY: Was there any significance, when he made that first move from the Republican to the Democratic Party?

GAY: I wouldn’t say that he made the move entirely on his own. In the primary, in the Republican primary, he got so many votes, as I remember it, protest votes of the black community, that the Democrats felt it fit to slate him on their ticket. So they paid court to him. This is my understanding of it. And he changed because of that. He was a head of a secret, of one of the secret 00:13:00societies too, Ed Henry was. There were three or four of them, and I forget which is which. But-- and Austin made me attorney for one of them. And I think that was Ed’s group. But his power was more or less based on the fact that he was head of this, ah, well this secret society, and that made him, to a degree, independent. Like being black bishop. You were a black bishop in the AME Church, you were independent of the Caucasian community. But he was a 00:14:00picturesque figure, quite a character. He came from West Virginia, I think, and he came in with some funds, some standing. He told me once, said you’re used to campaigning out there, he had a gun on his hip at election time. He was almost Caucasian in appearance. But as I say, I look upon those as, although you had a certain amount of battling then, and I think Ed Henry battled more than any of them. I’ll give you an example. The police at that time, and this is a 00:15:00time when [Frank] Rizzo was building a reputation around this time and after that, as the Cisco Kid. Well they had quotas for each district, and on the weekend, to fill out that quota, they just had a net out, and they’d pick up people on their stoops, not doing a thing, and put them in the cooler, to make that quota out. Well, Ed Henry would have meetings at, he’d have a hearing at night. Midnight, to release all these innocent people. They’d come before him into the magistrate of that district. And he would release them. It took courage to do that. He was really bucking the police.

HARDY: And I would assume as a Republican magistrate then, I guess he took Amos 00:16:00Scott’s magistracy when Scott died, that it was his responsibility to—

GAY: Well, they had districts. And he had the same district that Amos Scott had. Amos was nowhere near as civic-minded as Ed Henry was. I think he by and large bought the job. You talk about that fellow in [City] Council, that was a precious job from my viewpoint. He made contributions to the party, and they elected him. He was probably 70 when he was elected, and as far as ethnic or group advancement achieved by it, very little, except that he was a symbol 00:17:00there. But he never, he hadn’t any causes.

HARDY: Hm. So more tokenism and appeasement than anything else. Now has the reputation of the magistrates in those days was one, of course, unbounded corruption. They would, the fix was in everywhere. Do you think that Henry ran his court then, a little more openly or more ethics than—

GAY: Are you on the record? Am I on the record?

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: Oh, I didn’t know I was on the record. Well then I have no comment.

HARDY: (laughs) No comment. That’s great. Okay. Let’s move from Ed Henry then. This is, what we can do, this being oral history, if you say anything that you prefer to have—

GAY: You mean you’ll erase it?

HARDY: Well, what we would like to do is be able to, of course, preserve it for future historians, but we just put a seal on it for however long, you know. And the idea is for it to be historical and journalistic. We try to get as much of the facts as possible, but at your discretion. Yeah. Another race I’m interested in, let me see, get my year right, and maybe you can tell me a bit about this. Was I guess in nine—Bill [sic] [Harry] Trainer ran the 30th Ward, 3rd Ward, I guess that whole area. And I guess it was in 1935 that he and Aus opposed each other for the second councilman in district C. And Trainer beat him. Do you have any recollections of, of that campaign?

GAY: No, I knew something about the Trainer family, but I didn’t know that 00:19:00Austin Norris ran for council in opposition to Trainer. And no, I thought one of them was a state senator.

HARDY: Huh.

GAY: They were very wealthy people. I remember, I happened to be a member of the mayor’s—well it wasn’t the mayor—the group which the new charter established to select the Board of Education. We didn’t do the selecting, but we did the weeding out and recommending to the mayor. And one of the Trainer boys was a candidate, which I was surprised to know. I found they were out of 00:20:00the wine business, entirely, as far as I could see, and they had diversified their interests and their wealth in varied fields, and I was frankly surprised that one member of the family wanted to be a member of the Board of Education. I was the only one on the board who knew them, who knew him. And he knew me and knew my background. But the towering figure in the Caucasian world at that time was a fellow named [Samuel] Salus, S-A-L-U-S. Trainer had the money, but Salus had the political expertise, and the know-how, and the bravado that was effective in the field.

HARDY: This was after Vare left the picture?

GAY: Yeah. And during the time, Salus was Vare’s-- was both of them were, to a degree, right-hand men to the Vares, ah to the Vares. But I think my own comment would be that the Trainer influence was more through contributions, but Salus actually was a power in the Republican Party, working sometimes through the Vares and sometimes on his own.

HARDY: Yeah. By the old days-- by the ‘30s, they were sort of, the Vare machine was falling apart, and there was a rebellion within the ranks.

GAY: I would say that’s fair. That’s true. And then Salus got disbarred, 00:22:00which was a blow. Ah, a close relative of mine , told me it was the Pennsylvania Railroad who was out to get him, because he was a controversial figure.

HARDY: Hm. Switch topics, a minute. Can you tell me again about the founding, how The Independent was founded and established?

GAY: Well, if I’m on the record, and obviously I am, we’re going to have to be circumspect. I can say that the office in which I operated represented Forrest White Woodard, who was probably one of the largest numbers backers in Philadelphia. Austin Norris handling criminal work in the office, I was handling 00:23:00civil work. But I did get to know Forrest White Woodard quite well. We actually, I say ‘we’--certainly Austin who was making the decisions, wanted to get his best client out of numbers, because the government was out to get him out of numbers, ah certainly to check on his income tax, and to make an accounting on income taxes for gambling, pretty complex proceedings. As you know, subsequent 00:24:00thereto, and around about that time, an act was passed which, it licensed these fellows, government-wise. They had to get a license to operate as a number backer, and that was a dead giveaway on who the, as to them, because the form things you fill out with the government did, I mean, we have that act, I think it was repealed subsequently. But at one time, to operate a gambling establishment, you had to file certain papers with the United States government to pay a tax so that-- Largely Austin Norris was then running things—I’m a young kid, just in his office— was seeking some sort of image for his client, 00:25:00other than that of a number backer. So that one of the things that was done in connection with that was to buy this newspaper. We also incidentally bought him a yacht. First time I had been on a yacht, on its maiden voyage down the Delaware River. And got him a new wife, [laughter] a very pretty girl. And I remember one incident on the yacht, question came up as to the transfer. You had 00:26:00to register certain papers with the port authorities, and I was handling the transaction, and I offered cash payment, I think it was around $19,000. I don’t know exactly what it was. First time this ever happened to me, and the recipients, the sellers didn’t want to take the money. They--, “Can’t you give us a check?” And I had to tell them that as far as I know, my client didn’t have any checking didn't have any checking accounts, bank accounts. We finally persuaded them to take the money. He named the boat for his new wife, and he had a little fun out of that. But the paper, actually, it’s one of the 00:27:00finest things I think in the long run that we were able to do, because it was not always a paying situation, but it was built up to a point that when he actually had to give up numbers, it could go on his own, and it supported him, and another wife he got after that, the rest of his life. Now, I don’t know whether we could be criticized, this is 30 years ago, at least, probably 40 years ago.

HARDY: Fifty-two, I guess.

GAY: I guess you’re right.

HARDY: Thirty-two, it was founded, right? The paper began publication.

GAY: Oh, we didn’t--it was already existing.

HARDY: Oh.

GAY: Oh, we didn’t start it. We bought it.

HARDY: When was it bought then?

GAY: I don’t know.

HARDY: I’ll have to check that.

GAY: But I didn’t become an assistant until ’35.

HARDY: Okay.

GAY: It was after ’35 that, I think the guy we’re talking about, the triumphant Marcus, and Ed Henry, and someone else, had recently had something to do with publishing another paper in Philadelphia. But it was bought from them. They weren’t doing too well. And one of the, I guess, probably one of the historically important features of that was the fact that it was bought, ah—No, I’m wrong. It was bought, I believe earlier than that, because we 00:29:00turned it into a Democratic newspaper when all the rest of the press was Republican. And when the New Deal came in, we were in position on the ground of service, together with a guy named [Robert] Vann, V-A-N-N, out in Pittsburgh, who was owner of The Pittsburgh Courier, to more or less dictate the political appointments of the New Deal for the black community in Pennsylvania. And part of that was the fact that I became a United States attorney, assistant United States attorney, and also became a deputy attorney general. And it was all the 00:30:00fact that we had battled for the Democratic Party during the election of Franklin Roosevelt, which I believe was in ’32.

HARDY: Right.

GAY: So you have to post-date it a bit, because we did have that newspaper around that time. But it was existing when we bought it.

HARDY: Can you tell me how the decision was made to take up the Democratic political position with the paper?

GAY: Yes. I think it was a combination of motivations. One, a strong conviction on my own part, and I had something to do with it, ah, being fed up with the 00:31:00trickle theory, that is that governments devoted to advancing people at the top on the theory that something will trickle down to those beneath. And the social compassion which was being talked in the Democratic Party, whether it was going to be real or not, we didn’t know. But from my viewpoint, you had nothing to lose. Now that was not entirely true with Austin, who was a very able fellow. Incidentally, that newspaper’s owned before that, where he wrote, published, and delivered his own paper.

[INTERRUPTION—RECORDING STOPS]

GAY: On the comment attributed to Napoleon, that he’d rather have ten divisions against him, than three Parisian newspapers. I think Austin knew that, 00:32:00understood that better than any man I ever met. He knew the power of the written word, and he was tied in. For example, he and Ed Henry were very close together, Magistrate Henry. He and Marcus were close together. That’s how I got to know these pictures. People, he and the lawyer that I, wealthy lawyer that I can’t think of his name, were closely associated. The fact being that whether they had business relations or not, Austin Norris was such an outgoing person, that he ingratiated himself with people. You got to like him. He was rugged, earthy, but 00:33:00never stupid. Never was he anything other than good company. And he was a chap who would start with nothing, and go to the top. So he did have something to lose. At that time, he was a member of the most powerful black organization in the city. In fact, it held its meetings about two doors from our office. A political club of black folks, however, with a feeling that I think that the 00:34:00Democrats were going to win, because we were in the midst of a depression, and I think some of this was a pragmatic decision. We have nothing to lose. On my part, it was substantially a question of conviction, that we had nothing to gain in a party, which, as I say, addressed the needs of the top rather than the bottom of the pyramid. I don’t know if that answers your question—

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: But I think that’s why we turned this paper into a Democratic newspaper. Wrote editorials, circulated the Democratic view, and this is the only outlet it had in western Pennsylvania, practically.

HARDY: Do you feel then that the paper had an impact on the political situation in the city?

GAY: Yes. I do. Later on, a few years later, not too far later, Dave Stern’s newspaper took up the cudgel, and did a magnificent job. Dave Stern’s a very able man. The, I think it was, was it a Ledger? No, what’s the name of the newspaper? I think—

HARDY: The Record.

GAY: Right. Philadelphia Record.

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: But at that time, we were the only voice. And not a wide voice. I don’t think the circulation of the paper ever got to be over 15,000, if it got to be that much. But it was vocal. And as I say, Austin had the capacity to parlay 00:36:00this into gains of various natures, because he didn’t bite his tongue under any situation. And you know, I thought we did a good job on it.

HARDY: Hm. What gains were blacks able to make once Roosevelt was elected in the city of Philadelphia?

GAY: I think our gains under the Roosevelt administration were largely those that came from the theory that government had responsibility for the disadvantaged. Up until then, if you want my own political philosophy, the 00:37:00feeling was that this is the area for local governments, not for national. And not, local government wasn’t doing the job. And I think all the agencies of the New Deal, WPA and all the other agencies, were advantageous to the Negro, because they were aimed at upping the poor. I might say that from my viewpoint, the Roosevelt area was limited in that approach. It was not until Johnson came in, from my viewpoint, that the Great Society, the theory that not only were we responsible to take care of people, but it was the duty of government to train people so that they would be competent to contribute to our social mix, that 00:38:00they had skills that were needed. Roosevelt never went that far. If he did, it was in tokenism, but he did take the position that people can’t be permitted to starve, even though we have to make makeshift jobs to give them jobs. And I’d say that we were the beneficiary, not through political appointments, political advancement, because Roosevelt didn’t do an awful lot of that. If you get to, if you check it out—

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: You’ll find that he did not. I remember somebody calling me, and telling me that Mrs. Roosevelt was on the telephone. And I said, “Well, what next is 00:39:00new?” Until I went to Siberia, what did you want to—because I thought it was a practical joke. Said, “Mr. Gay, she really is on the telephone.” And I went to the telephone, and it was Mrs. Roosevelt. She was telling me that Mrs. Nicholas Roosevelt who comes from out around, well, Montgomery County, one of our wealthiest landowners, and probably one of the favorite relatives of the President, had spoken to her apropos of my ambition to become assistant United States attorney, and that she had checked it out, and that she would do what she could in connection with it. That’s an isolated example. However, under 00:40:00Republicans, we had had a predecessor, Rhodes. Gene Rhodes had been appointed to the same job, and this is for the same reason, he had a newspaper, and they wanted an organ for the party. And this had an impact on my—of course, there were other factors involved, but the appointments to new positions were not many during the time. When George Earle came in, I think in about ’33 or ’35, he was more kindly disposed state-wide, than others had been, but we probably got 00:41:00more from Truman in a way, than we got from Roosevelt.

HARDY: But then you think that your appointment as assistant district attorney was made possible in part by your association with the newspaper then?

GAY: No question about it.

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: I mean, that is, I had to have the qualifications.

HARDY: Right.

GAY: And, but it was a power situation, because we sat down with Bob Vann, who was Joe Guffey’s man. Guffey was United States Senator at that time, and we just cut the deal, (laughter) point blankly. Yeah, that had to do with it.

HARDY: In ’34 when Earle was elected, I guess Philadelphia also sent four black legislators to Harrisburg.

GAY: Did we? I don’t know that part.

HARDY: Sam Hart, Walter Jackson, Hobson Reynolds, and the one Democrat was Marshall Shepard.

GAY: I knew them all. When did Crystal Bird Fauset go down [ ]?

HARDY: I think she went down in ’37.

GAY: Could be right.

HARDY: A couple years later.

GAY: Yep. I think you’ve done your homework carefully on that, I believe.

HARDY: Mr. Gay, were you active in the Democratic Party during the ‘30s in Philadelphia?

GAY: Well, we passed the Hatch Act soon after I took office, which vetoed actual 00:43:00activities. But I was the ward committeeman for years. Austin was a ward leader of the Seventh Ward for some time, until he ran into that later on too, when he changed his jobs from Deputy Attorney General to a member of the Board of Revision of Taxes. He had to give up everything. In fact, he had to give up practicing law for the time being. And that’s when we separated. But ah, on the platform, I didn’t do an awful lot of work. I have been active in civic affairs, of course, but as a political leader, I was never a ward leader. I was 00:44:00committeeman here for years —

HARDY: Yeah. The reason I was—

GAY: Huh?

HARDY: Yeah, the reason I was wondering, you know, through your association with Mr. Norris, and I know that he and Marshall Shepard were during the ‘30s, I guess, the leaders of the black Democratic Party in the city, which is something I’d be fascinated to find out more about, how that worked, the whole history, the development—

GAY: I think that is true, that ah—you must remember though when you’re dealing with Austin, you’re dealing with a very flexible, ambivalent individual. He managed to keep a foot in both parties all his life.

HARDY: Oh yeah? (laughs)

GAY: That’s right, because he was, while a Democratic nominee on the Board of 00:45:00Revision of Taxes, he was offered the slating of a judgeship by the Republican Party, which is just about unprecedented. He had got to know very well and to serve the then chairman of the Republican Party who was on his board. And it got to be such a close relationship that the party, the Republican Party really didn’t make any big decision without consulting Austin Norris, a Democrat, which was, to say the least, a bit unusual. During that time, this leader got shot. I can’t think of his name at the moment, but he was shot by a, well, they found out who sh-, did shoot him, and never convicted anybody. And I think 00:46:00Austin was probably one of the first three people to find out, to learn that the leader of the Republican Party had been shot, and might die. But this was, I say, you have a gregarious fellow. This is because this guy got to like him, and to appreciate his advice. In crisis, they would turn to him. So, as I say, when he died, he had a foot in both parties. He was that adroit, and that skillful, and he made himself useful to both parties. I think sometime the Democrats would 00:47:00turn on Austin more than the Republicans. The Republicans never turned on him, as far as I know. The Democrats would say, “He’s not a real Democrat.”

HARDY: Was there any difference in style between the Republican and Democratic leaders in the black community? Could you make any gener-, would it be possible to make any generalizations about what sort of men would rise to positions of leadership in the Democratic Party in the ‘30s, and who would maintain or rise to leadership in the Republican?

GAY: You might say this, to a degree, I would say that the Democratic leadership among blacks, but it’s only to a degree, not a generalization, were people who had their roots in community support, like clergymen, who had constituency, or 00:48:00activists, people who’d actually gone out and done battle on the streets, and that sort of thing. But in the Republican Party, the black leadership wasn’t necessarily that. There were sometimes selective examples, when you mentioned members of the legislature who were Republicans, only one Democrat, most of the people you mentioned there didn’t have any significant power structure of their own backing. They were more or less elected by the Caucasian leadership. 00:49:00And they selected one they thought would be safe, of course. The Democrats, on the other hand, were fairly vocal. All of them would holler out if you stepped on their toes, or stepped on the toes of the, their constituency. That is an observation which I think might be said 65 percent correct, anyway.

HARDY: So then, the Republican black appointees or men put up for election would be determined by the Republican machine then—

GAY: That’s right.

HARDY: While the black leaders would have a grassroots constituency, which would allow them to achieve a position.

GAY: I think that’s a pretty good generalization.

HARDY: You said you functioned as a committeeman back in the Seventh Ward, when 00:50:00you were a young man.

GAY: No, not in, in the Fifty-second Ward.

HARDY: Second Ward.

GAY: Fifty-second.

HARDY: Fifty-second. Okay. That—

GAY: That’s Fifth Ward here.

HARDY: This area here.

GAY: It is not, it is not now the 52nd. The 52nd was divided, and I think here’s the Fifth or Sixth Ward now. In fact, that shows my detachment. I don’t even know the numbers.

HARDY: Yeah.

GAY: I think it’s the sixth ward.

HARDY: As an aside, that’s something else, I was surprised. I guess twice during the ‘30s, there were efforts in Harrisburg to gerrymander the Philadelphia districts, to break the centers of black political power in the city. I guess they were unsuccessful, but—

GAY: Well, I think they were, you might say they were partially successful in this ward, the 52nd, which at that time covered Overbrook, Wynnefield, and the eastern end of the ward, in which this office is located, going down, around 00:51:0054th Street. It was split, and largely on ethnic lines. But it didn’t work out, because the shift in population, that in most of Wynnefield now is black. And a good portion of Overbrook is black. But that’s what prompted it. They wanted to split the ward to put the blacks together, alone, and the white together.

HARDY: As a committeeman, you must have dealt very closely with a lot of your average voters. I’m curious as to what you can tell me about how the black man on the street, black man or woman on the street during this period voted, how they made their decision, what the attitudes were.

GAY: I think largely they voted black. I would think that general statement sound. If they knew who the black candidate-- generally speaking, they supported black candidates.

HARDY: That was something that struck me, that apparently in the 7th and 30th wards, which were the heart of the old black districts in the city, that Trainer was able to maintain such control that they voted him into office, or there were white ward bosses, white elected officials coming out of there for years after, well into the ‘30s. And it was through that Republican control of, the 00:53:00traditional Republican control in getting the vote out.

GAY: It did carry over, and, however those wards were running. For example, the Seventh Ward, when Austin was ward leader, was predominately white.

HARDY: Hm.

GAY: Well, that shows the extraordinary man we’re dealing with. It was. But the 30th Ward, as you say, was always black, as far as I remember. And the Democrats finally carried it. Its ward leader, by the way, a fellow named Jones at that time, a very humble chap.

HARDY: Tea and Coffee Jones?

GAY: Was he called King Coffee?

HARDY: Tea and Coffee Jones.

GAY: I didn’t know he had a--. But he, he’s responsible for [Robert N. C. ] 00:54:00Nix being slated for Congress. That isn’t generally known. But Bill Green went to him, as being in the heart of the black community, and asked him for a recommendation, and I understand it was given two years before it was effectuated, when he made the long-distance promise. But getting to the personal impact of leadership, there’s another ward down there that Bill Barrett ran. And that, although it was Democratic, because Barrett was Democratic, and that was not so difficult, but the personal impact of his influence, and he was an 00:55:00amazing chap, that even with Rizzo on the ticket, he could carry that black ward, which is 95 percent black, for Rizzo, simply because he was Bill Barrett, and he served his people. So that factor has to be considered, that you can build up a constituency through service that will roll on, to a degree, anyway, and I think that impact was in the 30th ward. I think that was Ed Henry’s ward, Magistrate Henry’s ward.

HARDY: I think it must have been very frustrating for a Democratic candidate to try and get elected, or try and build an organization when the Republicans were able to stuff the ballots, or buy the votes, or just-- used the influence of the 00:56:00magistrate’s court, or threat of the magistrate’s court to keep the voters in line. Do you remember any discussions amongst your colleagues a—

GAY: Well, I’ve heard that guy from the platform state, “Take the money, and go in, and pull curtain, and vote the way you want to vote. Vote your conscience.” That to me, the voting process is very important, from my viewpoint. For example, I’m opposed to the election of judges by any method other than by voting. And certainly I have a lot of opposition among my colleagues on that theory, but the only place a minority is equal with the majority is in the voting place. You don’t have that know-how, that sophistication. You don’t have the money. But you do have one vote. And I know 00:57:00that these panels, when they select judges or other offices, they’re affected by a lot of outside influences. And I, even though, as you say, you have these headaches and heartaches, I think in the long run, there’ll be tons of fellows, voters on average. The way he construes them to be, anyway.

HARDY: Yeah. Let me turn the subject a minute. One of the, I guess, issues in the mid-‘30s and the late-‘30s was to achieve the election or appointment of a black judge in the city. And I guess part of your career, you mentioned last 00:58:00time, was devoted to becoming a judge. In, in my readings apparently it was Herbert Millen—

GAY: That’s right.

HARDY: Who was the man who had the inside track in the beginning. What can you tell me about the campaign in the city to, to achieve the election or appointment of a black judge?

GAY: Of course, I knew Herbert Millen. I admired, and I respected him, and I think he was worthy of respect. His appointment and the appointment of most of the first in the Republican Party, and it did have firsts, because they were in power, it was largely a result of pressure from the black media, an organization 00:59:00structured, but not from protesting, not from watching, that sort of thing. But the papers would try to get promises from candidates who were running for office, that was in the primary, “Would you appoint a black judge? Would you do this?” And as I remember, a promise had been exacted from Republican leadership that if they triumphed, and I don’t know just what feat it was, because you’re getting way back—If they triumphed, we would get a Negro 01:00:00appointee. I frankly don’t know the name of the governor who appointed Herbert Millen, but that was usually how it was achieved. The media has been a lot of help, and The Tribune has done a good job battling over the years. And while Eugene Rhodes was its moving power, and probably since, although he had his spats with black leadership, as far as I knew the chap, he would do what we call 01:01:00the right thing when the chips were down, which would be shall we say, he used his paper for community advancement.

HARDY: One of the complaints leveled against The Tribune during this period is that it was devoted more again to class interests and the Old Philadelphia black community than it was to, you know, social activism or—

GAY: That may be true, but I didn’t feel it.

HARDY: Hm. Even when you were working with The Independent and—

GAY: Yeah, even when I was working with The Independent. I didn’t feel it. And I knew its publisher so well. I have seen him exhibit loyalty when I know most 01:02:00people would kick over the traces. I’ve seen, for example, when I worked with him, he was a board member of the Urban League. Sometime, he would advocate a position, strongly, and the Urban League would turn it down. He would go right along with the majority vote. And most people in positions of power won’t do that. They’ll say, well, you go your way, this is how I believe, I’m not going to be voted by the, I’m not going to be bound by the majority vote of people who don’t know or don’t understand. But he was loyal. He was, Austin Norris would not have gone along. (laughter) You couldn’t have a majority vote to tie him up. He was party of, one man party, shall we say. I never felt that.

HARDY: Speaking of the Urban League, while I’m here, can you identify any of those people?

[INTERRUPTION—RECORDING STOPS]

HARDY: Urban Archives of Temple University from the Octavia Hill Association and the Housing Association, and they’ll have some are before and after shots, but there’s one of a, obviously a poverty-stricken black family sitting on chairs. And then there’s the two white women social workers on the side, with their mink coats—

GAY: (Laughs) Yeah.

HARDY: And their hats, you know, sort of standing like this. And then the, I guess the inspection officer from the association, maybe the rent collector thing, standing way over on the side in the background with his hands in his pockets, you know. (laughter)

[END OF INTERVIEW]