Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History

Interview with Ella Lee, June 15, 1984

Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries
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00:00:00 - Introduction and early life in Georgia

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Partial Transcript: Mrs. Lee, how are you?

Segment Synopsis: Ella Lee discusses her early life, including her date of birth (December 19, 1891) and her family. She mentions that her grandparents were slaves, and discusses her reasons for coming up North.

Keywords: Amelia Gainer; Jacksonville, Florida; John Stokes; Jonas Gainer; Lee County, Georgia; Nancy Stokes

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Genealogy.; African Americans--Southern States.; Childhood; Lee County (Ga.); Slavery--United States.

GPS: Lee County, Georgia
Map Coordinates: 31.751, -84.144
00:02:37 - Work and family in Georgia

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Partial Transcript: What type of work did you do?

Segment Synopsis: Lee describes her work of taking care of the family farm in Georgia. The work during her childhood made her more independent, but ended her education early. She also says that after her mother died, she became the motherly figure of the family and raised the children.

Keywords: Georgia

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Southern States.; Childhood

GPS: Lee County, Georgia
Map Coordinates: 31.751, -84.144
00:04:14 - The move to Philadelphia and first work experiences

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Partial Transcript: Okay. When you came up from, uh, Florida, you said, did you ever hear any rumors about Philadelphia or big city or what it was like in the North?

Segment Synopsis: Lee shares the stories she heard about Philadelphia and then discusses how she arrived in Philadelphia by way of a train. She recounts her first jobs in the city working for the Bensley family, who worked at the well-known Gimbel Brothers Department Store.

Keywords: 69th Street (Philadelphia, Pa.); Bensley family; Domestic work; Gimbel's (Gimbel Brothers Department Store); Train transportation

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

GPS: 69th Street, Philadelphia, PA
Map Coordinates: 39.984, -75.258
00:08:10 - Wages in Philadelphia / the Bensley and Cronin families

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Partial Transcript: Five dollars?

Segment Synopsis: Lee notes that at first she was paid five dollars a week, and then under the Cronin family, she was paid ten dollars a week. Lee traveled between Philadelphia and Boston--where the Cronin family lived--in order to work and care for her children.

Keywords: 69th Street (Philadelphia, Pa.); Augusta, Georgia; Bensley family; Boston, Massachusetts; Cronin family; Fort Benning, Georgia

Subjects: African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Employment.; Wages.

GPS: Boston, MA
Map Coordinates: 42.359, -71.060
00:11:21 - Hardships of life in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: Okay, you said when--when you first came to Philadelphia, you had it pretty rough. What did you mean by that?

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses the hardships she encountered in the North and what it was like to live in Philadelphia as a widow with three children. She mentions that life up North was not any easier than life in the South.

Keywords: Fort Benning, Georgia; North Philadelphia, Pa.; North Street (Philadelphia, Pa.); Reverend Sam Harvey; West Philadelphia, Pa.

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

GPS: North Street, Philadelphia, PA
Map Coordinates: 39.966, -75.166
00:17:02 - First impressions of Philadelphia upon arrival in the late 1920s

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Partial Transcript: Okay, when you first got to Philadelphia, what were your impressions of Philadelphia compared to Lee County, Georgia?

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses her first impressions of Philadelphia. Lee claims she is still not used to living in the North, even after all these years. She states that Philadelphia has become filthier and more crowded since she moved there.

Keywords: Jacksonville, Florida; Lee County, Georgia

Subjects: African Americans--Southern States.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

GPS: Lee County, Georgia
Map Coordinates: 31.746, -84.101
00:20:55 - Employment opportunities for Black women and her preference for domestic work

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Partial Transcript: So, uh, in Philadelphia, the time you came up, uh, what were the best types of jobs available for Black women at the time?

Segment Synopsis: Lee states that the opportunities are the same for African American women now as they were when she came up. She explains her preference for domestic work over factory work, just as her aunt also preferred. She mentions she favored domestic work to public work because of the difficulty proving her actual age without documentation or "papers."

Keywords: Domestic work; Laundry; Laundry work; Social Security; Tobacco factory

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment--Law and legislation; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Discrimination in employment.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

00:23:02 - Domestic work for the Cronin family

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Partial Transcript: Did you ever live-in while you were doing domestic work?

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses living with the Cronin family for about two years while Mrs. Cronin was ill in Boston. She reveals that she's never actually worked in Philadelphia--often working in the surrounding suburban areas.

Keywords: 69th Street (Philadelphia, Pa.); Boston, Massachusetts; Cronin family; Domestic work; Live-in

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.

00:25:48 - Spending / duties

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Partial Transcript: So, you started out making five dollars a week, right?

Segment Synopsis: Lee explains her work for the Bensleys and the Cronins, including doing the dishes and taking care of children.

Keywords: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.

Subjects: Augusta, Georgia; Bensley family; Cronin family; Demrick Cronin; Germany; Mary Jean Cronin

00:29:13 - Lee's health and doctors

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Partial Transcript: I had a cancer operation and it's left me unable to do m--I can’t do my own work here lately.

Segment Synopsis: Talks of her doctors, both of whom were female. One of her doctors was Helen O. Dickens, the first African American woman admitted to the American College of Surgeons.

Keywords: Helen Mulhay; Helen O. Dickens; Lankenau Hospital

Subjects: African American physicians; African Americans--Health and hygiene.

GPS: Lankenau Hospital, Wynnewood, Pennsylvania
Map Coordinates: 39.988, -75.260
00:31:32 - Churches she has attended in the North

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Partial Transcript: When you first came to Philadelphia did you attend any churches?

Segment Synopsis: Lee mentions the churches she has attended in Philadelphia and in Coatesville.

Keywords: 10th and Moore, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; Church; Coatesville, Pennsylvania; Rome Emmanuel Baptist Church

Subjects: African American churches; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Religion.

GPS: Rome Emmanuel Baptist Church
Map Coordinates: 39.993263, -75.149352
00:32:54 - Work on Sundays and her temperament

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Partial Transcript: Did you ever have to work on Sundays?

Segment Synopsis: Lee says that she never works on Sundays. She discusses that she also has a temper as she cites that once she hit her husband after he hit her and that she would be willing to hit anyone regardless of race.

Keywords: Church; Rome Emmanuel Baptist Church

Subjects: African American churches; African Americans--Conduct of life.

GPS: Coatesville, Pennsylvania
Map Coordinates: 39.983, -75.816
00:34:38 - Experiences as a domestic worker

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Partial Transcript: When you were working and doing your domestic work, did, uh--were all your experiences good or did you have any bad experiences?

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses her experiences as a domestic worker and the types of jobs she did. She worked as a general housekeeper most of the time for well-to-do families with children.

Keywords: Cronin family; Domestic work; Laundry work

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.

00:40:31 - Work as a laundress and the best way to clean clothes

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Partial Transcript: So who was your first, uh, person that you did laundry for at home?

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses laundry work, the specifications for different types of clothing, the process of referrals, and how she obtained work as a laundress.

Keywords: Bensley family; Cronin family; Gimbel's (Gimbel Brothers Department Store); Laundry work

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.

00:44:05 - Comparison of domestic work in Philadelphia and Georgia

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Partial Transcript: Was domestic work in, in Georgia different than Philadelphia--

Segment Synopsis: Lee expresses her feelings towards White people by making the assertion that White people in the South acted the same as they did in the North.

Keywords: Domestic work

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.; Race discrimination.; United States--Race relations.

00:45:47 - First home in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: So, where did you and your children live?

Segment Synopsis: Lee talks about owning her own house when she first arrived in Philadelphia. She then discusses her work ethic and how she achieved success in her life.

Keywords: Home ownership; North Street (Philadelphia, Pa.); Work

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Housing.

GPS: North Street, Philadelphia, PA
Map Coordinates: 39.966, -75.166
00:47:54 - Work ethic and motivation

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Partial Transcript: My grandmother and grandfather were slaves.

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses how her grandparents were slaves in Georgia. She says she believes that work is the key to success unless you steal.

Keywords: Georgia; Slaves

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Genealogy.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Slavery--United States.

GPS: Lee County, Georgia
Map Coordinates: 31.751, -84.144
00:49:27 - Opportunities in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: Were there opportunities, a lot of opportunities for Black people then when you first came--

Segment Synopsis: Lee passionately discusses the opportunities, or lack thereof, for African Americans in Philadelphia. She vehemently argues the Black man has no more opportunity in the North than he does in the South and those who disagree are lying. She then says that this interview--made for the White man--is using the Black man.

Keywords: Domestic work; Earnings; Florida; Opportunity

Subjects: African American churches; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Religion.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.; Race discrimination.; United States--Race relations.; Wages.

00:52:54 - White treatment of Lee in the South

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Partial Transcript: Okay, while we’re on the subject of race relations--

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses her father's work and her mother's work. She claims that White people treated them as she would expect. She also notes that she gets her "coloring" from her father.

Keywords: Chip boxes; Farms; Georgia; Will Bryant

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Genealogy.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; United States--Race relations.

00:54:48 - Racial discrimination in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: How about in the--when you came to Philadelphia, did you have any problems?

Segment Synopsis: Lee recalls an instance when she had an issue with a White neighbor who harassed her and discusses how she handled the matter.

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.; Race discrimination.; United States--Race relations.

00:56:50 - Living in Coatesville, Pennsylvania

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Partial Transcript: How long did you live in Coatesville?

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses her time in Coatesville, a northwestern suburb of Philadelphia. She liked Coatesville because it was the country, but returned to Philadelphia because of her failing health and because there was little work for the children in the country.

Keywords: Coatesville, Pennsylvania; Lukens Steel Mill

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

00:57:58 - Lee's second marriage

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Partial Transcript: When you first came to Philadelphia, did you ever, um, think about--consider remarrying, or--

Segment Synopsis: Lee talks about her husbands and her two different marriages. One of her marriages led her to Coatesville where she lived for nearly a decade. She then shares that she was never really much of a dater or social person.

Keywords: Lee; McNair; Remarriage

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Marriage.; African Americans--Social life and customs.

00:59:50 - Enjoyment of domestic work

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Partial Transcript: So, uh, in terms of a domestic worker, if you had had a choice when you first came to Philadelphia to be anything, would you have been a domestic
worker, or would you--

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses her passion for domestic work, then describes some of her duties, including cooking and setting the table. She says that she translated these practices to her own home as she would set her table with the nicest dishes and cutlery for her own family.

Keywords: Domestic work; Housekeeping; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.

01:05:03 - Education in the South

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Partial Transcript: Okay, um, let's talk about, uh, school in the South. What was it like?

Segment Synopsis: Lee claims that Southern teachers were more strict and frequently beat children into obedience. They also had different seasons for their schools based on the farming cycle.

Keywords: Black children; Farming; Southern schools

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Southern States.

01:06:49 - Education and families in Philadelphia in 1929

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Partial Transcript: How were the schools for your children when you came up in ‘29?

Segment Synopsis: Lee says that in 1929, the schools were better than they are now. In addition to school, Lee discusses the digression of quality family time due to the work schedule of both parents. She says that when the mother of the family has to work, she lacks time to spend with her children.

Keywords: 1929; Great Depression; Northern schools

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Depressions--1929.

01:12:23 - Balancing children and work

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Partial Transcript: When you first came to Philadelphia and your children were in school, tell me how, how did you deal with that, um, in terms of working and--

Segment Synopsis: Lee discusses the family dynamic and its relation to work. She claims that a mother should always have time for her children, but that does not always necessarily mean having a man in the picture.

Keywords: Children; Laundry work; Mothers

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

01:16:06 - Differences between Southern and Northern African Americans

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Partial Transcript: I’m a Southern Negro and they are Northern people. Southern Negros have supposed to not have good sense. Northern people are supposed to be wise.

Segment Synopsis: Lee states the stereotypes that the "Southern Negro" has from the view of the Northerners. She claims that she's supposed to be stupid while the Northerners are supposed to have good sense because they have better education in the North.

Keywords: Interracial dynamics, Old Philadelphians (O.P.s); Stereotyping

Subjects: African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.; Race discrimination.; United States--Race relations.

01:16:58 - Relations between Northern Blacks and Southern newcomers

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Partial Transcript: Did the Northern Blacks treat you differently when you came up here?

Segment Synopsis: Lee says she stayed away from trouble between Northern African Americans and Southern African Americans. She hints that people may have tried to start trouble, but she brushed it off by assuming each person folds clothes the same way at the end of the day.

Keywords: Interracial dynamics; Northern Blacks; Old Philadelphians (O.P.s); Southern Blacks

Subjects: African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.; United States--Race relations.

01:18:53 - On regretting her move north

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Partial Transcript: Now this is my last question--

Segment Synopsis: Lee shares that she prefers the South because she did not gain anything from going to the North. She says she would have saved herself some trouble by staying the South with her family and friends. She talks about her elderly daughter in her late seventies, and her family living in Daytona, Florida.

Keywords: Daytona, Florida; Jacksonville, Florida

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Conduct of life.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.