Interview with Ella Lee, June 15, 1984

 TURNER: For the record would you state your full name and age and then we can continue with your story.

LEE: My name is Ella Lee. I'm supposed to be 93 years old. 94 on Dec the 19th as far as I know. I was born in Lee County Georgia. My grandparents was Jonas Gaynor and Amelia Gaynor. They were slaves. My father was John Stokes. My mother were Nancy. My mother died when I was eight years old. I don't know how old she were. My father died when I was--- I don't know exactly how old I was when my 00:01:00father died. Around 30 or 35 years old. I don't know exactly how old. My father was around 50 or 60. Somewhere in the neighborhood as far as I could tell. I lived in Georgia a good many years. I was grown when I left Georgia. When I came to Philadelphia, I left Jacksonville, Florida. As near as I can remember, I came here in '29. I been here ever since.

TURNER: Okay, what made you decide to come up from the South?

LEE: Well, my family were here. That is my aunt and uncles and, uh, I was led to 00:02:00believe that my children could get somewhat a better education here than they could there and I hoped for them to have a better education than myself. I wasn't able to go to school very much. I always had to work very hard.

TURNER: What type of work did you do?

LEE: Well, in Georgia, we were farmers. When my mother died she left a crawling baby and I became a mother for that baby and two more children at the age of eight years old. I was only eight years old when my mother died, so I'm told. One thing I know, I had to become a mother for those children. And my father 00:03:00were, I guess, he married about two years after my mother died. Of course I didn't have much of a child's life, which I am very proud of. It taught me how to be independent, very stable and steadfast. Not much book learning but, uh, somewhat very understanding about life.

TURNER: When you came up from the South, how many children did you have?

LEE: I brought three small children with me. I had two grown children married.

TURNER: And your husband?

LEE: I had lost the children's father. My husband was dead. I am still a widow.

TURNER: Okay. When you came up from Florida, did you ever hear any rumors about Philadelphia and big city or what it was like in the North?

LEE: Well, some, but unfortunately, I guess I don't know enough or didn't know enough to pay very much attention to hearsay. I still don't off handed, but--let me put it my way, with you. I don't know why. But, for some unknown reason, I 00:05:00haven't been able to accept too much hearsay. I don't know if that's good or bad.

TURNER: Sounds good to me, so how did you come up from Florida? What type of transportation did you get up here?

LEE: Well, I had a half brother here and he asked me if I wanted to come. I said, well, I didn't mind it. So he sent me train fare. He's dead now. When I came here I had it pretty rough when I first came. But, (laughter) I've always 00:06:00thought that they were men who ruled over everything and fortunately in about a month, I suppose, I put my children in school. I guess I came in around September about school time. I put the three children in school and went to the principal of the school and I told him that I just came from the South. And I didn't know anything about any kind of work except domestic work. And when it come down to cooking and laundry, I barred nobody. That was all I knew. He looked at me and said "All right." And that very little lady who my children went in her class and lives out on 69th Street--she says, "All right, if I hear 00:07:00tell of anything, I'll let you know." I said "Thank you." So she did. So it went on from that and I worked for one family. Just said worked for one family, I washed for a couple of families when I came here. Then this Mr. Bensley was a government man. He had a man working for him at Gimbels Brothers. With a home in Boston, but they had just moved here. They were strangers and so was 00:08:00I--(laughter) funny how you miss that five dollars a week. That was a lot of money in Philadelphia.

TURNER: Five dollars?

LEE: That's right! So, people say they were paying a lot of big wages but that's not true. I came here in '29. People wasn't getting a lot of pay or I didn't get a lot. And I know others didn't get a lot. But I managed to survive. So from on and on, little by little, I still survived. Mr. Bensley had a man working for him by the name of Cronin. I went to work for Mr. and Mrs. Cronin up on 69th 00:09:00Street. I guess I worked for them. They raised me from five dollars from the first couple of weeks to ten. Hard time. I worked them for that. They were very, very nice to me. Very nice. They gave me lots of things. So in four or five or six years, they moved back to Boston to their home but I stayed here. As the years passed by, a few years, I transferred back and forth, then my children grew older and I would go back and forth with them and stay with them. So, they were the only people I worked for--for about 35 years. My salary got very well. 00:10:00Pretty decent. Pretty good living. Pretty good dividends. So in 50--50 something--sometime in 58 or 59, I lost my health. So, I haven't been able to do anything since then.

TURNER: Okay, you said that the first person you worked for was--

LEE: The Bensley's--

TURNER: The Bensley's, uh, where were they located?

LEE: They lived out on the other side of 69th street. They're dead. The Cronin's are all dead. The Cronins has a daughter living, Mary Jean. She's in Augusta, Georgia. They are Massachusetts people. But her husband was a soldier and 00:11:00somehow or other, he's the captain or something of that army camp in Georgia. So I still hear from them.

TURNER: Fort Benning, isn't it? Okay, when you first came to Philadelphia, you said it was rough. What did you mean by that?

LEE: Oh, well, I just--living was just as hard here as it was in the South. It was just as hard. I didn't believe in relief. I didn't go on the relief. I took what little bit I got here and there through work--people were very nice to me--the people I worked with. They were wealthy. They wasn't poor. Not all rich 00:12:00people pay you a big salary. But they helped me with the children. [Someone Enters] Good evening! That's my great grand son. He's not very well. He's been out of school all week and with me. So I'm here. I'm still here.

TURNER: Where did you stay your first night in Philadelphia?

LEE: My what?

TURNER: First night when you got here?

LEE: The first night I got here I stayed with my uncle and aunt. Reverend Sam Harvey. They are both dead.

TURNER: In what part of Philadelphia?

LEE: West Philadelphia. What you call it? You call it North Street I believe. I think that's what they call the name of the street, North Philadelphia. When I 00:13:00first came here. That was in '29 I guess.

TURNER: What was it like in Philadelphia for a widow with 3 children?

LEE: Just like it was any other--Let me tell you honey, a colored person is tough with you if you ain't got nothing to go up on anywhere you go. I find it to be that way! If you got money or got somebody to help you, it's all right. To me, now, I don't know how it is with other people, but I didn't have anybody to help me. My peoples that were here, they didn't have any money. But I kind of 00:14:00believe the Man who made heaven and earth feeds the sparrows and I think He'll feed me. You know, dear, I read the Bible all the best I can. Some I understand and some I don't, but Our Heavenly Father didn't promised us to give us everything we wanted, did He? He said he would supply our needs. Do you believe He will?

TURNER: Yeah.

LEE: That's sufficient, ain't it? When the last day we live here on this earth, everything we made, we're going to leave it right here, aren't we? Don't care how much we may greed after or possess, when we leave here we are going to leave 00:15:00every bit right here for somebody else to enjoy, aren't we? So then, dear, if our Heavenly Father supply our needs, it's pretty nice when we can make ourselves satisfied, isn't it? We'll spend a lot of happy days, don't we, not worrying about what we see somebody else got. And we being restless, unhappy, trying to get what we see somebody else has. Maybe the Lord doesn't want us to have it. [Pause] Oh, yes, I've seen things that might be nice. I'd like to have 00:16:00some nice furniture and not have to put up with this old out of fashioned furniture, I've got here. (laughter) But I signed my papers and I don't owe anybody. I don't owe nobody nothing on this furniture and I don't owe nobody nothing on this ol' house. I don't have any health but I can be contented. So thank God. And that's about the end of my story. (laughter)

TURNER: I wanted to ask you--

LEE: Anything you want to ask me--[phone rings]

TURNER: Okay, when you first got to Philadelphia, what were your impressions of 00:17:00Philadelphia compared to Lee County, Georgia?

LEE: If I tell you the truth, maybe you won't believe it. When I first got to Philadelphia, I-- if I could have took my three children and turned right around and gone back to Jacksonville, I would of had.

TURNER: Why?

LEE: I don't know. Because when I looked around in the first place, I wasn't used to living in houses all built together. It seemed to me like when I came here and looked at the way people were living, it seemed like people--everybody was living' in one house. I wasn't used to that. (Laughter) I wasn't used to 00:18:00that. Everybody living in one house. People's houses that you have all around you--your yards and your gardens and everything. But when I came here, it seemed to me like everybody was living in one house. And I was used to when you meet someone saying' "Good morning' Mr. So and So" or "Good morning' Aunt So and So" or "Good morning Brother So's and So." But it seemed like when you met--people, I don't know what you was looking at. And I told my Aunt, "Well good Lord of Mercy, is this what you all call living?" And I still really haven't gotten used to living in Philadelphia. It's still no big hen to me as far as I'm concerned.

TURNER: Do you visit the South since you've been up here?

LEE: Yes. Once in a while but I can't afford it. I don't have the money. I was 00:19:00in Jacksonville a year before last because of somebody was ill. But I don't have the money to go.

TURNER: Did Philadelphia look a lot different then than it does now?

LEE: Yes because it's just filthy now and it wasn't as filthy then as it is now. Philadelphia is about as filthiest a place as you can live in. I tell you, Philadelphia is filthier now than it was when I first came here with all those broke down tore up and dirty houses. People put the trash out where people can get it. They throw it in the old broke down houses and what not. If you go like in Jacksonville or Atlanta, you find the homes clean and the houses and out in 00:20:00the country is where the people live and I don't know, living decent, they keep the yards swept. Of course, you are going to find some people who are not going to keep their homes up no matter where they live. Now I have a daughter that still lives in Jacksonville. And they own their own property. She has a daughter that teaches. So it just depends on who you are and where you live and what you do. I reckon that's the way it is. So I don't know.

TURNER: So in Philadelphia, the time you came up, what were the best types of 00:21:00jobs available for Black women?

LEE: The same that's for them now. Black women so far as I understand it now--I don't know. Because, I'm a domestic worker. I can't stand crowds. When I came here I had a Aunt that was working in a tobacco factory and ain't no way in the world that I'm a work in a tobacco factory. I visited her a couple of times and the smell in that tobacco factory, just ain't no way I'd work in it. I'd much rather take my laundry home and--and do it or go into the white woman's house and clean the basement and do my laundry and all that than--all that old stink in the tobacco factory. And then these factories, perhaps the pay is better. I 00:22:00don't know--I can't tell, because I'm just not a mixer. Maybe that's the way. I'm just not a mixer. So I can't tell you. When I went down to apply for my social security, they wanted to know my age and I told them they would have to write back to the South to get it. And 'What I have now is what they came up with. I never did any public work. I al ways did domestic work. I love to cook. I just like to--l just don't like-- I'm just not a mixer.

TURNER: So, you enjoy domestic work.

LEE: I love to cook. I love the laundry. I just love to be at home.

TURNER: Did you ever live-in while you were doing domestic work?

LEE: Yes, with the Cronin's . When I came here, that was the onliest family I worked for. After the children grew up and they were all grown up, I went up to Boston. Mrs. Cronin was ill for two years. I went up and stayed with her. I lived-in. They had a woman that come in and did the work and I just took care of her.

TURNER: So, you were more like a nurse then?

LEE: I took one cold season bedside nursing. And I just took care of her.

TURNER: Did you ever live-in, in Philadelphia?

LEE: That was here.

TURNER: How did you get to work?

LEE: To what?

TURNER: To work. How did you get to work at that time?

LEE: In Boston?

TURNER: No, in Philadelphia.

LEE: In Philadelphia? Well, when I worked with the Cronin's when they lived here before they--they were up in Boston, he came here to work and then I worked with them, I went by the El. I took the subway here and go down to 69th St and then I would get the bus from 69th St out to Lockwood. I never worked right here in the city.

TURNER: Oh, you never worked in Philadelphia?

LEE: Uh-uh, no, I never did any work right here in the city.

TURNER: Really? You worked outside of the city? Where?

LEE: On the other side of 69th Street. I never did any work for--I don't think I--

TURNER: Let's see, you worked in Darby, right?

LEE: Yeah, Upper Dar--No, Lockwood. You get to 69th St--You go to 69th and get the bus to what you call Lockwood Avenue. It's a little suburban country like, I call it. And then Mrs. Bensley, I used to go out and sometime with her girl and maybe work on Saturday or Sunday. Mrs. Bensley was a teacher here. She lived you go to 69th St and then go up to--somewhere now. Oh, that's been years ago, before my children was--was grown up.

TURNER: So, you started making five dollars a week, right?

LEE: Five dollars a week. And I--

TURNER: What did you do with five dollars a week?

LEE: Like other people did! We were making money, too! (laughter)

TURNER: I mean the duties. What did you do?

LEE: Well, when they was giving me five dollars a week going out there, I would go and I would take care of the two children and first one little thing and then the other. Just diddly daddly, I call it. I never had to go and just do all the cooking or all something like that, don't you know? And then when I would go over to the Bensley's, why, she had a cook, and I'd go there and me and the cook would be in the kitchen together and I'd help her. We'd do dishes or something like that. But, then after that, I went to work for the Cronin's straight out. I took care of the 2 children. They always had a woman to cook or clean house and do laundry. They had 2 children Mary Jean and Demrick. I've got the little grand 00:27:00children, now, over there.

TURNER: Okay, and these are the grandchildren? So you still keep in contact with them today?

LEE: Yes. I got a letter and whatever else they think I want or need, now.

TURNER: They send you things, then?

LEE: Oh, yes. The parents are dead. These here are the children of the children. These are--I call them my grandchildren. (laughter)These are the children's children that I raised of little Mary Jean and Demrick. A girl and boy. These are Mary Jean's children. The son don't have any children.

TURNER: So basically all you had to do was really babysit for them?

LEE: That's right. So Mrs. Cronin died around '59. She's been dead a long time. 00:28:00She died with cancer. I took care of her about two and a half years. I waited on her there in the house. She was so pitiful. And then he married a second time. He's been dead about 3 or 4 years. It's just the 2 children left. Mary Jean and Demrick. There they are in Augusta, Georgia. He's over that army camp there--sergeant over there in Augusta. He just came from Germany about 2 years ago. He has so --that's just been my life. I haven't worked in--I haven't worked 00:29:00in, oh, about 27 years. About 25 years I guess. [Inaudible] I had a cancer operation and it left me unable to do--I can't do my own work here now lately. I don't sit down, but I'm lucky I'm walking. I just have a good doctor. All my doctors are colored doctors. I don't have a white doctor. I have two Negro women doctors. I had a Negro man doctor but he died. Doctor Helen O. Dickens and Doctor Helen Mulhay are my two doctors.

TURNER: Did you have them since you came to Philadelphia or has this been recent?

LEE: No, no ever since-- Oh my Doctor Helen O. Dickens--oh I've been going to 00:30:00her…fact about it, I know both of them--Dr. Mulhay, I knew her before she got married. And she was married--her baby is married and has two children. That's just how long she's been my doctor. And Dr. Dickens was my doctor before Dr. Mulhay. So it seems like, I get a hold to anything, I just stick to it.

TURNER: What hospital did you attend, then?

LEE: Lincoln Hall. I was operated in Lincoln Hall. So, I don't know. I just--I trusted both my heavenly father and my doctors--My heavenly father first, and 00:31:00the morning the doctor carried me down, she--Dr. Mulhay, Dr. Dickens--she said, "Old mother, you may not be able to walk," I said, "Let's leave that to my heavenly father." So, I'm walking. Slow, but surely.

TURNER: When you first came to Philadelphia, did you attend any churches?

LEE: Oh, by Lord, yes!

TURNER: What--What church did you attend?

LEE: Why, when I first came to Philadelphia, I attended 10th and Moore, but after I moved here, I--I--no I didn't start attending Rome--I bought out of Coatesville. And I moved out in Coatesville, but I attended a church out there. 00:32:00Outside in the country, out in Coatesville. And then I, oh, I stayed out there 12 years and I couldn't stay out there by myself. My health was worse out there so I sold out then came back here so I attend Roman [inaudible, 32:23].

TURNER: So when you first came to Philadelphia, where was--[break in audio]--okay--so what were you saying there?

LEE: I was converted and baptized when I was 15 years old. And I haven't ever missed going to Sunday school and church since. I don't go to Sunday school now-- not like I used to. Oh, I've taught Sunday school, for--I don't know how many years. I love to go to church and Sunday school.

TURNER: Did you ever have to work on Sundays?

LEE: Very little work I did on Sundays. Very little work I do on Sundays. I 00:33:00think we ought to be able to give the Lord Sundays if he gives us all of the time. I think we ought to kind of make a sacrifice and give Him at least one day once in a while. We should serve Him as best we can. Every day. I don't understand--mean to say that I am a saint. Oh, I can get mad and get cross, just like anybody else. I haven't learned to fight but I guess I could. (Laughter) I slapped my husband one time because he hit me. So if he hadn't of hit me, I wouldn't of hit him. So, I don't want nothing' to hit me 'cause anybody what hit 00:34:00me is going' to get hit back. I don't care who it is. He can be just as white as can be or just as Black as can be. If you hit me, I'm going to hit you. I'm going to try. If I don't, it only going to be because I don't try.

TURNER: When you were working and doing your domestic work, were all of your experiences good or did you have any bad experiences?

LEE: Well, II don't think nothing's all good, do you? I don't think is anything 00:35:00all good, do you? Sweetheart, if you think anything's all good-- if you preparing corn or some peas and you get a ear of corn and it looks good and just keep on cutting and you see a black spot in that grain somewhere that you it's not perfect all the way through. I don't believe there's anything perfect except our Heavenly Father. I don't. If I was to sit here-- I try to be as good as I can. But I was to sit here and tell you that I'm good and perfect and ain't never did nothing' wrong, I'd be telling the biggest lie that ever been told. If 00:36:00I tell you I didn't get mad and think of saying something bad, I had never said nothing bad. You wouldn't believe me and you would have the right not to believe me. 'Cause I have been cross and I have said "Mill Damn it" just like everybody else. I haven't been vile. I've never been a person to drink, dance. I got to learn to cut my first step. To dance my first step. I got to learn to get out on the dance floor the first time. But I have been so cross and I have been so cross I have felt like I could just take whatever that was I was cross with and crush it. But I didn't touch it because it didn't touch me. Know what I mean, 00:37:00dear. So I'm not going to sit here and tell you I've been a perfect somebody 'cause I haven't. I've done the best I could.

TURNER: In the houses where you worked, were they large houses? How big was the domestic staff there?

LEE: Oh, I wouldn't think of working for no fellow with six or seven head of children. The biggest staff that I worked with was four. Going into a house with a whole--well coming into my house with four or five children is big enough to work for. I'm not going to work in no white folks house with no a bunch of children to pick up behind. Go behind and pick up behind.

TURNER: So basically what you would do most of the time is, babysit or? What types of other things did you do?

LEE: Mostly what I done was cook, be a general housekeeper. You know, cooking and take care of children and all that. I can't do 3 jobs at one time.

TURNER: So they were wealthy enough that they had other people working ?

LEE: That's right. I ain't going to work for nobody that's as poor as I am.

TURNER: How many other domestic people were there in the house?

LEE: Well, the last people I worked with there was a woman that come and clean 00:39:00and a woman that come and did the laundry. The woman that cooked, cleaned. The woman that come and done the laundry, she did the laundry. And I took care of the children.

TURNER: Did you enjoy that?

LEE: And then after the children--in fact I never went with too many people. Usually, when I was on the job-- I stayed with them when my children were here. I did laundry week at home, I took it at my home. When my children was coming up, I didn't go out to work. I was a good laundress. And I did at home--especially men's clothes.

TURNER: How did you get the business to do it at home?

LEE: Well, sometime I--well, you know, if you put your self--if you live in the 00:40:00city like I live in the city--and if I work for-- you take people--mens that work for-- that do office work-- like that works in YMC --in these stores --if you a real good laundress--mens will say "Who do your laundry?" And you tell them, and you get it like that.

TURNER: So who was your first person that you did laundry for?

LEE: Oh, my Lord. I can't go back and tell you who the name was of the first person I did laundry for! [Laughter] Now, when I first was doing' laundry for people I worked for in Philadelphia here, it was Mr. Cronin. He was some kind of man working' in Gimbels. No it wasn't--Mr. Bensley was working' in Gimbels. Not 00:41:00Gimbels but working somewhere in the city. And that's how come I worked for this Mr. Cronin I stayed with so long. I was doing his laundry and they wanted to know who did his laundry, he recommended me to them. From then, they just moved in and it went that way. Some people, I worked for, I never saw them.

TURNER: Why?

LEE: Because, just like somebody would come and get the clothes and I didn't see them. That's just like the way it was. You see. I don't know. I never was a person that--all I did was do their laundry. I wasn't interested in them.

TURNER: How much did you make by doing this?

LEE: Well, when I was doing men's laundry I got good pay. Because you know there used to be a time when the men wore their collars separated from the shirts. The 00:42:00stiff collars. Well, I did that. And then they used to wear those bosoms. Those stiff bosoms. Like they wear with the tux. Well, I used to do that.

TURNER: Did you have a washing machine then?

LEE: Yes, I had a washing machine even from when I was in the South. Just like now, I have an automatic washing machine. And then I used to have, you know, those other washing machines.

TURNER: What kind was that? You wanna describe that?

LEE: Yeah. The old fashioned washing machines. Oh, I've done a lot of hard work, but I was raising up my children and I wanted to be at home with them. I never put my children out. Like those mothers that put their children out in the nurseries and people now and I didn't do that. I stayed at home and sometime 00:43:00wash all day and iron practically all night. I had an electric iron. And then I used to have one of those big fire places --don't you know -- one of those big irons before the fireplace. I did hard work.

TURNER: Could you describe that process for me 'cause I'm not too sure about the older irons? Could you tell me about them?

LEE: The old flat iron that you put in the fireplace. You never seen any of those?

TURNER: Yeah I've seen one of those, but how would you iron off of those?

LEE: Good. They iron just like anybody else. Sometimes I'd have about six of them before the fire hearth. You have it on a big wood on one of those big iron things one on each side of the fireplace. Put the big log of wood, you know, oak wood across there and it would heat your irons good. And your iron--you'd have a rag just to hold on so you wouldn't burn your hand. I used to do that in the country--I used to when I lived in Georgia.

TURNER: Was domestic work in Georgia different than Philadelphia?

LEE: No different. No different. Wasn't no different. You see that's one thing I was very surprised. I used to hear people say--that fact about, I don't see where Philadelphia is any different to the cities in the South. I don't see where the price is any different. If it comes down to it, there are just as many crackers here in Philadelphia than there is in Jacksonville. There's just as many poor crackers right here or they act like crackers.

TURNER: How--when you say they act like crackers--how do they act?

LEE: Just as nasty. Just as nasty, dear. So far as I'm concerned.

TURNER: What types of encounters did you have in Philadelphia?

LEE: Because I have-- and so forth-- I see the way they pass along because I never worked for any poor people. In the first place, I never worked for poor people. So maybe that's why I don't know any different and I didn't see any different. So that's the reason why I told you that if I could have, I would have turned around and went back.

TURNER: Why couldn't you?

LEE: I didn't have nothing to go back with.

TURNER: So, where did you and your children live?

LEE: When I first came here?

TURNER: Yes.

LEE: When I first came here, I lived over here on a little street called North Street with an Aunt of mine. Sweetheart, I can show and get you right now show 00:46:00you the deeds to 3 homes that I bought since I been here in Philadelphia. I don't believe in renting, . A lot of people -- I came to Philadelphia because people said it was better some --better living in the North than the South. But as far as I'm concerned, you got to work like a dog to have anything anywhere you go. Don't nobody give you-- I haven't seen it. Maybe somebody came here and found it. And I'm telling' it to you just like I would tell you if your face was as white as this sheet. I'll tell you the same thing I'm telling' you now. If 00:47:00you sit down on a stool and do nothing' you ain't going to have nothing' unless you are lucky enough to meet up with a man that works or done inherited something from somebody and give it to you. If you don't get up off of your stool and work and save it after you get it, or you don't be lucky enough to marry a man who saved something or help you, then you ain't going to have something either. Now you are recording this and I hope you let somebody read it.

TURNER: I sure will.

LEE: My grandmother and grandfather were slaves. Both of them were slaves. And I 00:48:00have part of many for in the state of Georgia. I have worked. I know what work is and I know what not work is. And I know honey. if you don't work you ain't going to have nothing unless you steal. (Sighs) I know a lot. I have worked just as hard here in the state of Pennsylvania as I worked in--in Georgia. Yes. I came here. And when I came here, I came here and found my family. Some of them 00:49:00here. Some of them here died just as poor as some of them died in Georgia. Some of them died here with nothing just like some of them died in Georgia and Florida. That's true.

TURNER: Were there a lot of opportunities for Black people when you first came?

LEE: Is there a lot of opportunities for Florida here in Philadelphia? Where?

TURNER: No, I was asking you.

LEE: I'm asking you.

TURNER: [Laughs] I don't know

LEE: Sometimes I have to answer a question by asking a question. Are there a lot of opportunities for the Black children or Black men here in Philadelphia? Is there for the White men here? For the Puerto Ricans that come here? For the 00:50:00foreigners that come here? Can't the foreigners that come here to Philadelphia get a job now? --before the Black man can come here and get one? Just tell the truth. Yes. Because there's some living right across the street. They come here and get in the neighborhood amongst the colored people and then get a job where these colored boys who have been here born and raised and they can't get no job. But they can come here and get a job. But a nigger ain't got no opportunity--ain't got no better opportunity here in Philadelphia than he got in the South. Some of them tell lies, say they is but they ain't. I'm sorry honey, but are you interviewing me for the truth or for a lie?

TURNER: For the truth.

LEE: Now I don't know what this interview is for. I don't know what the white man got you out here interviewing niggers for. (Long silence) But everything I 00:51:00got since I been in Philadelphia, I worked for it. I worked hard for it. I just happened to fall in the hands of good people. Now, I don't know what the white man has got you people running around interviewing the old people for that came from the South for. I don't know what they doing that for.

TURNER: Oral history

LEE: I hope you all do a good job on some of us.

TURNER: We're interviewing to hear the truth.

LEE: And then what? When you get the truth and take it back to the white man, 00:52:00what you gonna do with it? That's where you're gonna take it back. It's going back to the white man!

TURNER: Well, also the money. Well, what they're gonna do with it is, um, write a book on it and also have a series.

LEE: (Laughter) Oh dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear how we are being used! Shame! Shame! How we are being used!

TURNER: Well, I think, okay, while we're on the subject, how did white people treat you in the South? Before 1929?

LEE: Very good. Very good. My first knowing, my father lived on a place and my mother died. Where we lived at, the onliest neighbor we had was a white neighbor. Mr. Will Bryant. He had a little girl about my age and we played together all the time. On the same place that we lived. My father was a public worker. He did what they call chip boxes.

TURNER: What was that?

LEE: He cut holes in the pine trees for the tar run out. That's what my father did. My father was an immigrator. I don't know anything about his parents. On my 00:54:00mother's side we were straight Georgia Negroes on my mother's side. But my father wasn't.

TURNER: Where was he from?

LEE: I don't know. My mother was born in Georgia and my father came to Georgia from. I never saw any of my father's people. My father was a man who might have been a little lighter than you. Very good hair. I take all of my colors from my father. I have one brother here in the city who has the colors of my father. Nice hair and complexion of my father. But we never had any trouble.

TURNER: When you came to Philadelphia, did you have any problems?

LEE: I have never had any problems. Even at Coatesville. I have the deeds to my property in Coatesville. I lived right between two big estates. Our place in 00:55:00Coatesville between two big estates. I lived out there by myself. I have never had any problems with white nor colored. Oh, I had some little--what was I going to say? I lived right here in this house for 18 years. There's an old gentleman down the street there who gets drunk and might say some things sometime. He started one time and so and I got a big old piece of pipe and told him: Now look, you are on your porch there and you can do anything you want over there, pull off all your clothes say anything, do anything, but if you come over here, I'm going to use this piece of pipe on you! We are just as good of friends now as you can be. So I never, up until now, up until now, I have no trouble with 00:56:00anybody. Cause you can come here any time of day because I don't go out to work and you'll find me laying down there on that old piece of couch or sitting in here doing' something' or sitting out here on the porch. I don't sound selfish, but well, my mother died when I was eight years old and I had to be a mother for 2 or 3 children. She left a crawling baby. She left two more little boys and my father did not marry for two years, so I didn't have time to play and I've had to work.

TURNER: How long did you live in Coatesville? What year did you move out there?

LEE: I lived in Coatesville 12 years.

TURNER: And you moved out there when?

LEE: I moved to Coatesville--I went to Coatesville in '40. I liked the country. 00:57:00I don't like the city, but my health is bad. The children don't--see there's no work out there for the children. Most of the work out there was farm work and Lucas Steel Mill. [inaudible] Just like now with the little boy. The children is all grown and have their own lives to live. And I'm a person like this. When they get grown, I don't go rope around their neck. They have their own life. Those that married have they lives and those that's single have they lives. I've been here. The girls are young, they feel like going when they wanna go, and come when they wanna come. They want their company, they are entitled to it. Don't you think?

TURNER: When you came to Philadelphia, did you ever think about or consider remarrying?

LEE: Yeah, I married. I married.

TURNER: You married your husband here then?

LEE: Married--no, my second husband I married here and he's dead. I was a McNair when I came here. The children's father is McNair. And my second husband. He's dead too. Lee.

TURNER: What year did you marry him?

LEE: I married in '40. That's why I went to Coatesville.

TURNER: He was from Coatesville?

LEE: No, he was in Philadelphia but we bought in Coatesville. Because as I say, I like the country.

TURNER: When you first came Philadelphia, did you date?

LEE: No, I'm not much of a dater. I don't even know how I come here and got 00:59:00married. I used to see him coming and shut the door and tell the children to tell him I'm not there. He's been dead now about twelve years.

TURNER: Did you have any type of social life when you first came or just work hard?

LEE: No, not too much of a social life. Even when I was young, I don't know. I just don't have too much of a social life. I like to travel. I do like to travel.

TURNER: So, in terms of domestic work, If you had had a choice when you first came to Philadelphia to be anything, would you have been a domestic worker--

LEE: --A domestic worker.

TURNER: You enjoy it.

LEE: Mhm. When I first came here my Aunt used to tell me about doing, you know, sewing. I like to sew. I used to make all my clothes and the children's clothes. And I went to one or two of the factories and Oh! I couldn't stand all of that noise and all of those people around me. I just like, oh I guess--I suppose you may earn more money doing the factory worker and all that but I like domestic work. By the time you get through with it you're going to save it.

TURNER: How many hours was your average day when you were doing domestic work?

LEE: Well, depends. I had a day off every week and I had every other Sunday off. 01:01:00On Sundays I worked till 12 o'clock on the Sundays that I worked, don't you know. I got dinner. We always had early dinner. We had dinner no later than one o'clock on Sunday. And I worked with very small families. I never worked with those with 3 or 4 children. I never worked for those with more than 2 children. [inaudible]. One family, I cooked. I didn't like this cooking too much. I liked taking care of the children. It made me be going a lot.

TURNER: Getting out the house a lot.

LEE: I liked cooking though. I do like to cook.

TURNER: What kinds of dishes did you prepare?

LEE: Well, I can prepare most any kinds of dish. 'Cause I like to eat. For my 01:02:00own family, a lot of us just don't prepare for their family, but I sit down and prepare for my family like I would anybody else. Little dainty thing will set the table for us. I use my silver for my family just like I would for company. I just think there ain't nobody else better than my family. That's the way I feel. (laughter) That's the way I feel. I do. I don't feel like anybody--I used to see people--I think of my grandmother, they were good at that. Old people, they were good at that--having for company. I don't think no company is better than my family. You work for your silver and your good dishes--. Why you gonna put out 01:03:00your good dishes and silver waiting for somebody else to come! (laughter) Sure. That's stupid. So when your family, my goodness, your husband out working all day, if you ain't working then your children out working, when they come home for supper--It's nice to have the dining room set up and the silver on the table and they would sit down. I wasn't going to wait till company come and they ain't going to do nothing but sit down. [Inaudible] I'm not joking. That's stupid. You doing for them when you working. Set the dining room table at night for when 01:04:00your husband come in and the family sit down and eat, don't they? Why can't you do it? If you at home all day and your husband and your children are out working' and you are not going' out to work or not able to work, or it's on Sunday--why can't you set the dining room table if you got good silver? What you saving that for? Sit down and enjoy it if you got it. If you didn't… [inaudible](Laughter)

TURNER: I forget what we were talking about.

LEE: I don't know what we was talking about! Because what you asking to me is kind of amusing to me. It really is. I shouldn't say that but it is. [Laughter]

TURNER: Lets talk about school in the South. What was it like?

LEE: Well, I'll tell you, they had real good schools in the South. They had in the South when I was coming along as a child, we had very short school. We only had about three months of school because it was farming to be done. The school started in about November at the end. The children didn't get to go much because they were picking cotton together on the farms. It was December, January and February that the children had to go to school. Because in November they would be into the crops then. Well, you say in March, then, they would begin to plant the crops. So children that were old enough to work, they would be working, but in the South we had very strict teachers. Teachers in the South didn't play with 01:06:00you. You went to school, they had what you would call the books--Webster spelling books and you study it. If you didn't study, you got whipped. And your parents would give you another one when you got home. It was important for you to learn. Now, the schools here ain't very good. Not the public schools, not now. I don't think from the way--I think you got some of the schools pretty good.

TURNER: How were the schools for your children when you came up in '29?

LEE: I think the schools were better then than they are now. All the teachers in '29 are better than they are now. I don't have any children of my own, but 01:07:00judging from the grandchildren here--I think here now, but I'm going to tell you that I'm not going to put it all on the teachers now. I think some of it depends largely upon the parents too, I tell you what I think and I'll tell you why I'm going to say that's its not all the teachers.. there's so many parents working now and the cost of living is so high now. I'll tell you, it's very hard for a man to support a family if he got more than one. It seemed to me that the young womens are having children so young. Seemed like the children are not getting--that's me. I don't know because I don't have any to raise. But judging 01:08:00from my own children just raising their children, the outlet they give their children seem like--You take a mother that get up and leave her home at 7:30 to go to work, she leaving' home before the child leaves to go school.

Understand what I mean? She hasn't got a chance to fix the child any breakfast. She haven't seen how the child was dressed to go to school. Grabbed the little baby and took it off to a nursery somewhere. Right across the street there. That woman has a little baby and she was getting up and going to work with that little baby before it was a month old. I see the father of that baby going in there, so help me god, if I ever laid down with a man and got a baby by him and he couldn't take the means for the baby to get a mother. I don't think I could let him come to my house. And she's got a couple of more children. The children 01:09:00get up and go to school without breakfast, the mother haven't got time to give the children the attention they should have. And the mother get home from work, she's tired. There's a baby in her arms. Then sometimes there's one in her pocket. One's swinging on her crying. The husband's sitting down. How much--how can you put it--how much attention can the child got in there before school and how much training? There's three or four out there ranging from three years, 2 months old up to maybe 10 or 11 years old. That one mother got to go to work 01:10:00every day, take care of the home, take care of the husband. What's gonna happen?

Then when they get in school, the child haven't had any discipline at home. Teachers ain't allowed to discipline. Now, here's a young teacher, she ain't--she's had probably trouble with her children and her husband, then the problem with your children in there, is who is gonna--what kinda life is it for the children? Just look at it, dear, just look at it. Just look at , just stop kidding. I've been kidding you along. Look at the black man situation of today. Just look at the colored situation. Just look at the situation that we are in 01:11:00today--the black people. What we're living through, what kind of training our young people are getting today. At home--in the schools--in the churches--most of our children--most of our ministers--are looking for money. You have to agree to that. I don't know where you go to church or where your parents go, but it's not like it used to be.

TURNER: How did it used to be?

LEE: It used to be. I'd come along, asking for some money as much as they ask for now. Twenty-five and thirty and a hundred dollars. If you don't mind me 01:12:00asking, did you pay a hundred dollars for this, or a hundred dollars for that or the other thing. I'd just ask you to pay a dollar. Three dollars a week for salary and all like that. It just used to be stuff like that.

TURNER: When you first came to Philadelphia and your children were in school, tell me how did you deal with that in terms of working?

LEE: I didn't have that to deal with my children when I first came to Philadelphia in terms like that. When I first came here, when my children were little, like they had to be cared for, I didn't go away to leave them to work. I 01:13:00leave in the care of someone. There were times when I had a little old lady, Lil, was here that I would leave with the children. And then as I think, I told you, I took in laundry and stayed home with my children. I took laundry in and stayed home all day and wash all day and iron part of the night so I could be home with my children. I even did that in Florida after my husband died. It was hard, but I did it.

TURNER: And you still donated time to your children, too.

LEE: I had to have time for my children. But most of the women now-- I never did a days work in a factory in my life. I've never did anything but domestic work. Most of that I did after my children were able to take care of theirselves, when 01:14:00they were grown up, or you would say old enough to look after themselves. It's no good now. I just don't know what is happening. Nobody's got no time with the children. The mother don't have time because the mother has to make 8 hours just like the father do. And when the mother gets home, she done makes 16 hours because she has to work in the house to serve the children and serve the father and serve the people like that. So what's left of her? I had to laugh when you asked me about the mens--I don't see nothing' to want. I'm not joking, baby. The 01:15:00type of mens I see floating around, I don't see. Now there may be some out there, maybe. Right next door there. There's a woman that goes to work everyday just like her husband do. Here's one right here, has ten head of children, ten head of children from this man and she goes to work every single day. There ain't a man in the world that I would lay down with and bring ten head of children into the world and go to work everyday just like him. I'd quit him first. At that age? And the baby has children? And they haven't accumulated enough in ten years that she might be able to stay home? I can't see it. I'm a 01:16:00Southern Negro and they are Northern people. Southern Negros have supposed to not have good sense. Northern people are supposed to be wise.

TURNER: Who said that?

LEE: Well, Georgia people are not supposed to have any sense and Northern people got good sense. People from the South ain't got good sense. They ain't got no education. (Laughter)

TURNER: Oh? Because the education? [Laughter]

LEE: That's what met me in the face when I came here.

TURNER: What?

LEE: When I came here and you were from the South you ain't too much. You were a Georgia somebody or a Southern somebody not a Northern somebody!

TURNER: Did the Northern Blacks treat you differently when you came up here?

LEE: [Laughter] Some of them tried!

TURNER: What did you do?

LEE: Did like I did when I was back home--stayed home and took care of my business.

TURNER: How did they try to treat you different? Could you give me an incidence?

LEE: You don't have to ask me. If you are a Northern, then you know. If you are a Southerner than you know. You know the difference. They come down to me, I got a closet full of clothes look like the good of the rest. I don't bother nobody, I never did. So, you know, you do just as much about it as I do. You can't be 01:18:00what you do, and I know. (laughter)

TURNER: Okay, I'm going to cut this. Now I'm going to ask you one last question.

LEE: Ask me all the questions you wanna ask me, sweetheart! You know what?

TURNER: What?

LEE: I was on jury for six weeks.

TURNER: Really?

LEE: [Laughter] And this ain't the first time I've been on trial! [inaudible]

TURNER: Now, this is my last question.

LEE: I don't care! You ain't annoying me, honey! Ask me anything you wanna know!

TURNER: Okay, If you had to do it all over again, would you have come North or 01:19:00stayed in the South?

LEE: I'd have stayed in the South.

TURNER: Why?

LEE: Because I hadn't bettered myself. My hand to my heavenly father, if I would have give it up what little bit I had in the South and came north, I would have stayed there. I would have done just as good. And my peoples that there? Is doing just as good. My children that's in the South? My family's doing just as good in the South as we are up here.

TURNER: Your children in the South, did they stay down there when you came up?

LEE: Yes, I had a married daughter down there. She has Viola, my oldest 01:20:00daughter, is in the South--in Jacksonville. Where I came from when I came here.

TURNER: Who did she stay with when you left?

LEE: Her husband, she was married.

TURNER: Oh! When you came up?

LEE: Yes! When I came up! I had two daughters that was married in the South when I came up.

TURNER: And how old is your oldest daughter?

LEE: My oldest daughter is the one I'd say is in her late seventies. And she has her home that is paid for and a nice big yard and everything around it. Then she has a daughter that she lives in Jacksonville and her daughter lives in Daytona. Has her own home, two children, is teaching. So, they doing alright. Her husband is retired. So, I haven't lost anything. Of course as I said, if you weren't and be careful where you live you can live, but if you don't work you ain't gonna be 01:21:00able to know where you're going. If you don't care where you go, anyone can give you and give and give and give and if you don't have no sense with it, you ain't gonna have nothing either. If I could've had turn around, if I could've turned around and went back when I got here, I would have turn around and went back. I walked when I came here until I almost lost my mind trying to get a job. Trying to get work to do. I had a brother when I came here and he was married to a Philadelphia born woman, oh, and she was so sophisticated. Until it's a shame, 01:22:00cause it was a shame. But you see, there are some good people in Philadelphia--not all of us stayed anyway. You know that. There's some good people and there's some bad people, there's some nice people and there's some ignorant people, just like me, every where you go. No matter where you go you gonna find some ignorant people, some sensible people, some good people, some bad people, aint you? And I was an ignorant one in the South and an ignorant one here. (laughter)

TURNER: Well, Mrs. Lee, thank you so much

LEE: And you said you were gonna ask me one more question!

TURNER: Well you answered it and I really thank you for your time! And you've been very informative!

LEE: Well that was! If I could have turned around and I was talking to a friend of mine that come here ever said he's a man, he lived with my aunt and my baby and my aunt raised him from a baby. He visits me every Saturday. He visits me cause he's in very very good shape. And we were talking and he was laughing at me, and said "Yes! If I could have had anything and gone back on the train and turned around and went right back. But I didn't have nothing to back to. The few 01:24:00things I had, I had sold 'em. And I didn't have nothing to go back to!' (laughter)He laughs about it now, him and I would have. But (laughter)I knew somebody who had the brains to be stupid and let me in!

TURNER: Okay, thank you for the interview! And I really appreciate it!

[End of interview.]