Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History

Interview with Hattie Nedwood Alexander, Annie Virginia Dowdy, Arrow Vaughn Hunter, Annabelle Gibson White, September 28, 1983

Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries
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00:00:03 - Introductions

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Partial Transcript: Well, I do hard work now. I tell everybody, hard work don't hurt you. It helps you--

Segment Synopsis: After the four women chat among themselves, White, Dowdy, Hunter, and Alexander briefly introduce themselves and state in what year they each moved to Philadelphia. White arrived in 1925, Dowdy arrived in 1937, Hunter arrived in 1933, and Alexander arrived in 1917.

Keywords: Annabelle White; Annie Dowdy; Arrow Hunter; Hattie Alexander; Migration from the South

Subjects: African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:01:11 - Hattie Nedwood Alexander--Reasons for migration

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Partial Transcript: Why did--I don't care what order we go in, but can you tell me, um, why y'all came to the city, either you or your parents?

Segment Synopsis: Alexander recalls her father's motivation for leaving the South. She states that her father sought to improve the family's living conditions by moving to Philadelphia in 1917. Her father wanted his children to not have to live in the country and work in the fields.

Keywords: 952 North Darien Street (Philadelphia, Pa.); Greenwood, South Carolina; Hattie Alexander; Migration from the South; Motivations to move North; Southerners

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Greenwood (S.C.); Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:03:31 - Alexander--Arriving in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: Then the next--and then, the next, um--we were here in 1917. And, um, my father only lived a little more than a year--I'll say about a year and a half--after we came to Philadelphia.

Segment Synopsis: Alexander recalls when she first moved to Philadelphia in 1917. She started school at 4th and George, however, her father passed away on May 3, 1918, so she and her family moved back down South. She remembers in the South that she had to walk a long way to school and by the time she was there, the school day was almost done. The school was good, according to Alexander.

Keywords: 1026 North 3rd Street (Philadelphia, Pa.); 4th and George (Philadelphia, Pa.); Hattie Alexander; Schools

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Education; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:05:13 - Alexander--Moving back to the South after her father's death

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Partial Transcript: And by this time, I was fourteen years old. And then, um, we, we worked at a, um--my mother was cooking for this place.

Segment Synopsis: After her father’s death, Alexander’s family returned to the South. Alexander married, as she describes, “like a dummy,” at age fifteen. Alexander recalls picking cotton in the South, where she made between $23-26 a week. She explains that she would give her mother half of her earnings, and then keep the remaining half for herself. She says, with pride, that she has never been without money since that day. She was an efficient cotton picker; she remembered with pride picking close to 300 pounds of cotton in one day.

Keywords: Cotton; Hattie Alexander; Marriage

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Migration, Internal.

00:09:31 - Annabelle Gibson White--Reasons for migration

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Partial Transcript: Annabelle, you came, you came up next, I guess.

Segment Synopsis: White states that her family moved to Philadelphia in 1925 after her father had an incident with his employer in South Carolina. White explains that her father farmed and worked at a sawmill. Her father's employer refused to pay him in cash and wanted to pay him with store credit instead. White's father demanded to be paid in cash, and the boss paid him, responding that “he would never live to spend it.” With this threat, White’s father relocated the family to North Carolina, before moving to Philadelphia one year later.

Keywords: "White man's rules"; Annabelle White; Migration from the South; Motivations to move North; North Carolina; Sawmills; Sharecropping; South Carolina

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Discrimination in employment.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.); Race discrimination.; Wages.

00:12:40 - White--Arriving to Philadelphia and first jobs

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Partial Transcript: Do you know when your father came to Philadelphia?

Segment Synopsis: White recalls that her family moved to Philadelphia because her father's sister lived in Philadelphia. She then continues to speak about how her father's sister claimed that jobs were easy to find in Philadelphia. Her mother did housework, and White also helped do domestic work after school and on weekends. White speaks about working for three hours in the morning, going to school in the afternoon, and then working three hours in the evening. White recalls her father going to the Whitman area in Philadelphia to dig his own coal, which she helped him transport back to their house.

Keywords: Annabelle White; Coal; Domestic work; Housework; North Carolina; Schools; South Carolina; Whitman (Philadelphia neighborhood)

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Education; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:16:56 - White--Father's decision to ask for cash

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Partial Transcript: Let me ask you one question before I move on to Annie.

Segment Synopsis: White revisits the incident regarding her father's decision to ask his employer for cash instead of store credit. White explains that in the South, African Americans did not question white authority. White then speaks about how her father was afraid to stay in South Carolina after asking for cash, which is why her family moved to Philadelphia.

Keywords: Annabelle White; Motivations to move North; Racial resentment; Sawmills

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Discrimination in employment.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.); Race discrimination.; Wages.

00:17:30 - Annie Virginia Dowdy--Arriving to Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: Annie, you say you came up in, uh‑‑

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy recalls migrating to Philadelphia from the South in 1937. Dowdy explains that her husband got a job in Jacksonville, Florida, but she moved to Philadelphia to go to beauty school. She lived-in with a Jewish family working in domestic service, where she had a good experience. When she eventually started beauty school in the evenings, she worked during the day. Dowdy states that after a year, her husband moved up to Philadelphia to be with her and worked at Cramps Shipyard, and later at Sun Shipbuilding and Company.

Keywords: 1242 Chelten Avenue (Philadelphia, Pa.); Annie Dowdy; Apex Beauty School; Cramps Shipyard; Domestic work; Fifth and Locust (Philadelphia, Pa.); Housework; International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union (Philadelphia, Pa.); Jacksonville, Florida; Live-in; Migration from the South; Motivations to move North; North Carolina; Southerners; Sun Shipbuilding Company (Chester, Pa.); World War II

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Education; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:20:09 - Dowdy and White--Attitudes towards domestic work

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Partial Transcript: Now, when I was here last time, you said that you graduated from high school.

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy recalls looking for jobs upon arriving to Philadelphia and finding a position doing domestic work. When her husband entered the military service during World War 2, she moved back south. Dowdy states that she viewed domestic work as being honest work and claims she did not mind doing it. White continues by explaining how her father disproved of her going into domestic work, as he did not want her doing "the white man's wash."

Keywords: "White man's wash"; Annabelle White; Annie Dowdy; Apex Beauty School; Domestic work; Housework; North Carolina; World War II

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

GPS: Location of Apex Beauty School in 1935
Map Coordinates: 39.945111, -75.168408
00:22:32 - Dowdy--Life in the South

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Partial Transcript: Oh, let me get a little more about people's attitudes towards housework.

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy recalls life in Laurinburg, North Carolina, where her grandfather--the grandson of a slave owner--owned five hundred acres of land. She states that she was a fortunate child, and that she planned on moving back south to live on her grandfather's land. Every child of her grandfather’s owned their own land and house, because he did not ever want them to work for a white man. Her mother ran away to get married and her parents then leased a farm where they had sharecroppers working for them. Her father owned a hay baler and cane machine. He was the first African American in their community to own his own car. Dowdy continues by saying that she had a wonderful childhood, and had nothing to regret. Laurinburg had many successful Black businesses.

Keywords: Annie Dowdy; Black business; Cotton; Housework; Landscaping; Laurinburg, North Carolina; Sharecropping

Subjects: African American business enterprises; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Childhood; Laurinburg (N.C.); Traditional farming

GPS: Laurinburg, North Carolina
Map Coordinates: 34.774070, -79.462722
00:27:24 - Dowdy--Philadelphia compared to the South

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Partial Transcript: Now, you came from--it sounds like your situation down there was pretty good--

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy states that when she arrived to Philadelphia in 1937, she considered things to be bad then, although she agrees that conditions have improved since she first moved to the city. Dowdy continues by recalling that she was never treated poorly in either Philadelphia or the South, and that she has nothing against Philadelphia. Dowdy then explains that when she lived with a white family in Philadelphia, they treated her as a part of the family.

Keywords: Annie Dowdy; Discrimination; Domestic service; Live-in

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Education; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.); Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

00:28:27 - White--Attitudes towards domestic work and segregation

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Partial Transcript: Let me back up again a little bit to domestic things.

Segment Synopsis: White explains that she did not mind doing domestic work at all. White continues by saying that she also did factory work as well, but liked domestic work better because she loved the children and loved cooking. White recalls that she never experienced segregation in her life, including in school. White claims that she was never denied anything, including an education.

Keywords: Annabelle White; Domestic work; Factory work; Housework; Segregation in schools; Vare School

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

GPS: Location of the Vare School
Map Coordinates: 39.926882, -75.150885
00:30:30 - Arrow Vaughn Hunter--Segregation in the South

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Partial Transcript: Mm, Arrow had something to say.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter recalls experiencing segregation in Northampton County, North Carolina. Hunter speaks about how the white children rode buses to school, however, the Black children walked. From the age of eight to eleven, she had to walk four miles to school, while the buses drove by them. Eventually, her family and that of a neighbor “carpooled” by driving the children to school in a surrey and horse.

Keywords: Arrow Hunter; North Carolina; Northampton County, North Carolina; Segregation in schools; Surrey

Subjects: African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Childhood; Discrimination in education.; Education; Migration, Internal.; Northampton County (N.C.); Philadelphia (Pa.); Race discrimination.

GPS: Jackson, North Carolina, the county seat of Northampton County
Map Coordinates: 36.389769, -77.421609
00:31:35 - Hunter--Growing up in the South and reasons to move north

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Partial Transcript: Well, I would say, uh--well, first of all, my mother passed when she was twenty-seven and I was five, and then, of course, my father remarried when, when I was six. And, er, uh, he had his own farm at a very early age, 'cause he was a very ambitious person.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter speaks about how her father farmed his own land in North Carolina, while also cutting hair on the side. Hunter remembers picking cotton as a child, and claims that she was good at picking it. Her father's sister came to visit from Philadelphia and tried to convince him to move with his family north. She recalls her father as very religious. Hunter recalls experiencing segregation in the South when she would go back to visit her hometown.

Keywords: Arrow Hunter; Barbers; Cotton; Livestock; Migration from the South; North Carolina

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Families.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.); Race discrimination.; Traditional farming

00:34:54 - Hunter--Working and marriage

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Partial Transcript: Well, of course, I met and married, and, er, uh, then I was going to, uh--after I married, uh, my idea was to more or less work along with my husband, but, of course, his attitude was different.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter states that she married her husband in 1940 and became a housewife. She married at sixteen, but needed to be eighteen to work, so she lied about her age. Before she was a housewife, she worked at the Quartermaster Depot. Hunter explains that her husband worked at the post office, and encouraged her to become a housewife.

Keywords: Arrow Hunter; National Youth Administration; Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot; Post Office--Employment

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:36:00 - Hunter--Experiencing segregation

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Partial Transcript: Now, I had been--now, get back to segregation.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter talks about how her husband was born and raised in Philadelphia and had always been very political. Hunter explains that she has also been involved in politics, and voted for Franklin Roosevelt when she was eighteen. She then recalls that she loved and would defend always North Carolina, and that the only segregation she experienced in the South was attending different schools than the whites. She recalled a racist attitude of white men calling her father a “good boy,” which she considered demeaning. She experienced discrimination herself while traveling on the Silver Meteor on what was called the “Chicken Special.” Hunter explains how she experienced Northern segregation at a restaurant in North Carolina. She was asked to order her food at a different part of the restaurant. Hunter discusses segregation in Philadelphia theaters.

Keywords: Arrow Hunter; Franklin Delano Roosevelt; North Carolina; Racial resentment; Segregation; Segregation in Philadelphia; Segregation in transportation; Silver Meteor; Theaters; Transportation; Voting

Subjects: African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Politics and government.; African Americans--Segregation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Childhood; Discrimination in education.; Education; Migration, Internal.; North Carolina; Northern segregation; Philadelphia (Pa.); Race discrimination.

00:40:06 - Hunter--Husband's career

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Partial Transcript: Now, he worked at the post office for, for--from '36 to '66, thirty years, and he passed the test every time, but--they want him to become political, to pay the party, but he refused to do it.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter discusses her husband's long career at the post office and how he refused to become political within his position. She also discusses his successes during his career.

Keywords: Employment discrimination; Frankford Arsenal (Philadelphia, Pa.); Post office--Employment; Trolleys

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.); Race discrimination.

00:40:56 - Hunter--Fair Employment Practice (FEP)

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Partial Transcript: I, I was one of the original members of FEP. See, that's Franklin Roosevelt's program, Fair Employment Practice.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter discusses being one of the first members of the FEP and the job market for Black workers in Philadelphia.

Keywords: Fair Employment Practices Commission (FEPC); Franklin Delano Roosevelt

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Discrimination in employment.; Philadelphia (Pa.); Race discrimination.

00:44:50 - White--First thoughts of Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: Can you tell me all, what your first impressions of the city were?

Segment Synopsis: White tells of her first thoughts of the city and how the living conditions differed from the South.

Keywords: City life; Home ownership--Philadelphia; Impressions of migrants

Subjects: African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:46:17 - White--School in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: And one thing at that time: nobody closed the schools. I wouldn't care how much snow you had, how cold it was, how much rain it was, the schools was never closed.

Segment Synopsis: White discusses the role school played in her early experiences in Philadelphia.

Keywords: School in Philadelphia; Schools

Subjects: African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Childhood; Education; Philadelphia (Pa.); Philadelphia (Pa.)--Social conditions.

00:48:43 - Dowdy--Shopping in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: When I came to Philadelphia I had never seen a five-pound bag of flour.

Segment Synopsis: The women discuss how shopping for groceries differed in Philadelphia and how they learned new methods through their experiences.

Keywords: City life; Life in the South

Subjects: African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Recreation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:50:00 - Dowdy--Acquiring food in the South

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Partial Transcript: We didn't know what it was to ever buy meats because my father raised the hogs and we had this place called--a little place out from the house, a little house we called the smokehouse.

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy talks about her family's home in the South. She explains how her parents would produce their own lard and had a smokehouse where they made sausage, so they never had to buy meat.

Keywords: Lard; Life in the South; Sausage

Subjects: African Americans--Southern States.; Families.; Traditional farming

00:53:49 - Dowdy--Returning to Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: Now Hattie, you said that, um, after your father died you went back south.

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy returned to Philadelphia in 1921 after spending time in the South following her father's death. She explains why she returned to the city.

Keywords: City life; Life in the South; Motivations to move north; Transportation

Subjects: African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:55:27 - Hunter--Activities in Philadelphia

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Partial Transcript: In, in, in Philadelphia you had more of, um--you could, uh, participate in more things that youth would, you know, enjoy.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter explains how her 'sheltered' life in the South led her to enjoy her freedom in the city. She explains she had never been to the theater before arriving in the city and that the city offered more things for people to enjoy.

Keywords: City life; Entertainment; Life in the South; Lincoln Theater; Social life

Subjects: African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Recreation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; African Americans--Southern States.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:56:26 - Hunter--Social experiences

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Partial Transcript: May I say this: I had never seen a drunk man till I came to Philadelphia.

Segment Synopsis: Hunter explains how she never saw a drunk person until she came to Philadelphia.

Keywords: City life; Drinking; Social life

Subjects: African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Recreation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; African Americans--Southern States.; Alcohol; Philadelphia (Pa.)

00:57:55 - Hunter--Youth today

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Partial Transcript: I think one of the main programs for youth today is...

Segment Synopsis: Hunter explains that youth today, mainly children between the age of 12-18, need work and/or something to do so they stay out of trouble.

Keywords: Housework; Social life

Subjects: African Americans--Recreation; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; Childhood

00:58:43 - Dowdy--Childhood chores

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Partial Transcript: Well, my mother used to get us up at five o'clock in the morning.

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy adds to Hunter's views by explaining her responsibilities as a child.

Keywords: Chores; Duties; Housework; Responsibilities

Subjects: Childhood

00:59:12 - Dowdy--Advice for moving to the city

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Partial Transcript: Did y'all have any warnings or advice before you came to the city from family or friends?

Segment Synopsis: Dowdy tells of advice she was given before she left for the city.

Keywords: Advice about moving north; Parental advice; Trap doors

Subjects: African American families; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Migration, Internal.; Philadelphia (Pa.)

01:05:07 - Alexander--Work

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Partial Transcript: Hattie, what work did you do when you, when you came to the city?

Segment Synopsis: Alexander describes the work she did when she first came to the city. She later worked at a cigar factory on Girard Avenue.

Keywords: 4th and Girard (Philadelphia, Pa.); Cigar factory; Factory work; Tobacco factory

Subjects: African Americans--Employment.; African Americans--Pennsylvania--Philadelphia.; African Americans--Social conditions.; Philadelphia (Pa.)