Interview with Ernest Grey, July 12, 1984

DONNA DEVORE: Okay, our early period, again is 1916, when you first arrived in Philadelphia.

ERNEST GREY: Yeah.

DEVORE: And, um, you said after leaving Paoli, you came to Philadelphia. Is that correct--

GREY: Yeah--

DEVORE: --is that correct? And you secured a job at Campbell Soup. Could you tell us a little bit about how you found out that Campbell Soup was hiring and how you actually got the job--

GREY: Yeah, we, we--A couple of boys and myself, we went looking for a job, one Saturday. So, we went all around in Philadelphia, and we went down to the ferry. And, uh, we got on the ferryboat. We went on the Camden Avenue Ferry. We were--

DEVORE: Wait a minute. Just back up for a minute. Um, had you already tried 00:01:00to find jobs in Philadelphia, first?

GREY: No, we were looking from where we was at to anyplace that was hiring people--anyplace, not particularly about Philadelphia, but--so they tell us that we go in Jersey you might something. And we went over in Jersey, and we struck Atlantic Avenue. That's one of them main streets in Camden. And they told us that a--they hiring men in--for the Medicine [?]. See, that was Medicine [?] just opened up in July, around. But that particular time that. So, we, we, uh, went back, and we come, come over there, but--and they, they hired all three of us right that same day. And we stayed there for--after the season was over.

DEVORE: Um-hm. Okay, um, could you describe for us, um, your workplace? Were blacks separated from whites in the particular job that, uh, you had to do?

GREY: Uh, no, I can't re--can't do that stuff 'cause, uh, uh, uh, whites always, if they--if they could work, uh, they had jobs. You know, always they--, better work, and you know that the majority of white--of colored folk would, would, would, would be a good hand uh, you know?

DEVORE: Did you work together or--

GREY: Yeah, at that particular time we worked together, that, uh--that season. And after the season, uh, they give us a job inside, so we had a job inside where they cooked it--soup--made soup. And we have a, a particular job, and we 00:03:00decided that we wasn't getting enough for what we were doing, and we would strike for more. And the man strike all out of there. (DeVore laughs) And, uh, them days, you see, when you're--when they fire you, you couldn't get no job back there no more. They won't have any--when you quit your, yourself, you could get--so they fired us, and, and we was out of the way.

DEVORE: What were the wages then, before you went on strike?

GREY: I don't know. Well, uh, but, uh, we, uh, made a lot of overtime then. And I think it was twenty-five, uh, c--twenty-five cent an hour or something. But we worked, uh, overtime and everything. We make higher than nine--nineteen dollars a m--a week. That's--that was high. You didn't pay off in that in 00:04:00gold and silver. They didn't have no s--paper money. That's what uh. Gold and silver. That's all they was--were using then.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: (laughs) And we had got hired, and nine--uh, we--that's big money--nineteen dollars. You was up there, then. (laughs)

DEVORE: Um, well, when you went on strike, was it just the black workers?

GREY: N--n--yeah, but see, we all was pulling pots and, and stuff around for the, the ahh soup pots. And what, what, what we were doing, they'd make us come in early in the morning to, uh, wash the pots and stuff when we started to working. So we wanted extra for that, and that's where this trou--trouble come in there, see? We had four of us, and one, one, one of the guys was a northern guy, and he was with us. And when we decided to go on strike, and we with the 00:05:00strike I ain't seen him since. I ain't s--never seen him no more. And so, he leaved--uh, leaves three out there to fight by ourself, and they fired us three all us three (laughs) I ain't--I ain't seen him since. So that's how we lose a good job, 'cause we had a--I, I might have been working there over thirty years, if it wasn't for that. But these, uh--we--we asked us to come in early, now, you know, at first in the morning to wash the pots. We thought we should get more money, you know? But we went to him and he let us go.

DEVORE: Um, had you worked at any other jobs?

GREY: Yeah, I worked at a whole gang of jobs up in New Jersey, in Camden. I, I worked at Eavenson soap factory. And, uh, I worked at Coke plant, car plant. I worked at, uh--I had down a little work, uh, Victor Talking Machine. And I--and I used to get work in two or three jobs a day if I wanted to, because--

DEVORE: --um-hm--

GREY: And I, I worked different times to a coal yard--when that--uh, McAllister's Coal Yard, and like that.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: Before I got there, a job New York Shipyard, and that's where I end up at. And, and that's in the wartime--First World War. I worked there, till the war ended. And when the war ended, uh, an we was ending.

DEVORE: And this was in New York?

GREY: Hmm?

DEVORE: This was in New York?

GREY: Me?

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: Did I go to New York?

DEVORE: Did you work in New York?

GREY: Yeah, I've been in New York. I worked there for a while. I've--I had a job at, uh, Pelham Gas Company. That's on, uh, [?] to New York as you're going to Boston.

DEVORE: Was this during the First World War?

GREY: At--after.

DEVORE: After the First World War--

GREY: Yeah. I worked at the shipyard--New York Shipyard--all the First World War.

DEVORE: Um, were there any other jobs that you worked in, in Philadelphia, 00:07:00prior to your leaving during the first war?

GREY: Yeah, I worked up were uh I could catch every kind of job I could. And I went, uh, uh, Lit Brothers for a while--portered in the Lit Brothers. I used to work there for a while.

DEVORE: Well, could you describe for us, uh, the attitude of the people that you worked with a Lit Brothers?

GREY: Yeah, they was, uh--they was all right [unknown person enters]

DEVORE: Thank you.

GREY: We had it pretty good. We--they, they were--treated me all right, you know, at that particular time. 'Cause, as long as they let me work, they was all right with me.

DEVORE: Um-hm. Are there any incidents that, um, you can recall, while you were there at Lit Brothers?

GREY: No, not really. I was like a porter, like, you know? [Speaking to other person in the room] She said a fan would be too h--

UNKNOWN: Oh, she

GREY: See, that's why I turned it off.

DEVORE: I see.

UNKNOWN: (inaudible).

DEVORE: Um, okay, uh, what was your reason for leaving Lit Brothers?

[Pause in recording.]

GREY: --not yet .

DEVORE: Um-hm. [background clanging]

GREY: I don't know if the work was getting' bad or something. I, I couldn't unders--I didn't really know, myself, what the reason. I can't answer that one. I, I got- my memories from that cau---

DEVORE: All right. No problem. Um, what other jobs did you, uh, secure here in Philadelphia?

GREY: Well, I went, uh--then I started--I come to Philadelphia and, uh, started in the laundry j--business. And that's where I ended up, in laundry. I was working in laundry for over thirty-five years. So, when I retired, I retired from a laundry.

DEVORE: Is, is this when you returned to Philadelphia in 1928?

GREY: No, this is--Yeah, Ph--Ph--I come to Philadelphia to live in 1928, and that's when I got the job, started to work in the laundry, in, uh, 11th Street and Vine, there was a laundry there, then. Are you a Philadelphian? You know where Eleven--

DEVORE: All the way native Philadelphian here.

GREY: You know where--you know the la--uh, uh, Vine Street Laundry?

DEVORE: Um, it wa--was it--it wasn't Anton Dorfman, was it?

GREY: Hmm?

DEVORE: Anton Dorfman? Was it--

GREY: --no, that--just--

[Pause in recording.]

GREY: --a long time.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: See, I wasn't raised with-- 'Cause my father was a traveling man.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: And, um, I, uh, didn't know I had no sisters and brothers until I got grown. And when I got grown, I found out I had, um, sisters and gr--my father 00:10:00had grandchildren who was older than I was. (both laugh)

DEVORE: How old were you then?

GREY: Well, 15th of November I'll be ninety.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: To my, uh, experience, like, when I come to Philadelphia--when I come North, that was 1916, and I started off at, uh, Campbell Soup factory.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: And I didn't know--I didn't--see, when I was born, they didn't have no doctors or nothing like that. So I had a midwife, and I never did get no--I didn't have no birth certificate.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: So I told them all over there in Campbell Soup factory, uh, that I was twenty-one, that's what I go by, twenty-one. Then, mostly, people then had to be over twenty-one, you know, to get a job. Now I wanted to be sure I'd get the job, so I could remember twenty-one. So I told them twenty-one. And, uh, 00:11:00that's what I--twenty-one from 1916 known what I mean? (both laugh) So, the man asked me--he said, "Well--" said, "Well, oh, you was born in 1895 then?" I said, "Yeah." See, I don't--didn't know nothing about that, but I said, "Yeah." So, they asked me what did my--what was my name. Well, my--really--name my father--uh, my family, uh, Graves, but I couldn't spell it right, so I said Grey. And that's what I've been going by. And that's, that's from the beginning, when I first come North.

DEVORE: Could you tell us, where were you born? Excuse me.

GREY: Well, uh, I really come from, from Savannah, Georgia. But where I was born is--was on an island. They call it Cat Island. My mother and father, they 00:12:00got disagreeing. Uh, he left and was another little kid, younger than I am. But he took both of us to Savannah, and he didn't go back. And my father--my mother come and got us and got us back there, and make him come back. And he didn't come back. So he--she--(laughs)--she packed us up and sent us back to him. And that's how I never seen her since.

DEVORE: When you went back to him, you went back to your father in Cat Island? Is that--

GREY: That's where my mother went on back, but my I sa-- we, we stayed in Savannah, Georgia. I never--I never went to Cat Island no more.

DEVORE: Um, could you tell us a little bit about how it was in Savannah? Uh, is there anything that you re--remember from your childhood? Anything that sticks out in your mind?

GREY: N--no, not in particular. But he, uh, here, uh, living on a f--not 00:13:00living, but really--see, but, uh--uh--working on a farm with the other lady, my stepmother. And, uh we lived there for a while, and, uh, some how or another she got displeased and she went on back to--on the island someplace. I don't know what--I don't know what cause I was real small then, you know? So I never seen her no more. So we lived in Sav--Savannah for a while. And, uh, some lady from the Buford side come, and she come over there to, to see her--one of--one of her friends, like, you know? And so they made agreement somehow or another. My father gave me to her and she carried uh me to Buford. And that, uh--she 00:14:00raised me from until I got grown. So, when I got grown enough, now, I don't know how long huh, but I've been ah--went to, uh, Hilton Head Island. We had a sh--sharecropper at Booker T. Washington. I work on his crop, Booker T. Washington.

DEVORE: On his property?

GREY: Um-hm, sharecropped with him, and then we went on back to Buford. Then we stayed at the Buford a while, and we'll uh come back to Savannah. So, I stayed in, in Savannah for a while. I, I guess I, I wasn't grown yet, but I called myself--I thought I was. So I ran away from my, uh, adopted people. Uh, and I went to s--I went to see my own folk I went then, in Blackville, South 00:15:00Carolina. And that's where I met my--other part of my family, and I found out that she had--he had grandchildren older than I was--grandchildren. So I never did know from them w--how old I was, uh, 'cause I never had no, birth certificate.

DEVORE: Who--do you remember, um, anything Father might have told you? Um, any memories at all that--of advice or, um--

GREY: No, I didn't have no chance much to go to school because when I w--r--ex--a lady what, uh, raised me, we went back and forth, you know? And the 00:16:00only schooling I got was a little bit from, uh, on the Island, when I went to Book--sharecrop on, uh, Hilton Head. That's the little bit of schooling I got at--I--we, we lived there around about two or three--I know it was over two years, but I couldn't exactly know how many--how many years was it.

DEVORE: Um-hm. Can we--um, could you tell us, um, about, uh, any racial problems that you know existed at the time?

GREY: No, I don't know nothing about racial problems, because I haven't been around but so many people are my people. So, after I got to Blackville I found out that I had a lot of people--in fact, I had two or three brothers. And, uh, I think it was three brothers, but I didn't stay a--a--away from Blackville. 00:17:00Uh, not Blackville but, uh--yeah, Blackville. I done stayed away from Savannah, um, only about three years. And, uh, I went--uh, I spent s--eight month in, uh--in Augusta, Georgia. And I went back and I started wearing long pants in there, I got grown in there. (laughs) So I went on back to Savannah, where the people at that raised me. And I was to be grown then, I was a grown worker and work for myself then.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: And I worked for the fertilizer plant and like that.

DEVORE: So, so you don't have any recollections of any type of, uh, discrimination, uh--

GREY: --unh-uh, no, w--

DEVORE: --towards blacks or--

GREY: --no, well, that's--that was always was down there. I had, uh, one of 00:18:00my, uh, nieces--I went down there, uh, uh, 1982--I went down there to find her because she and myself was a--I, uh--we were one year children, and I wanted to find out exactly about how old I was. I wanted to find out from her what her age, see. But all of them, mostly they had died out, especially her. That's who I wanted to see. And, uh, she, uh, passed, and I didn't get no, no satisfaction for that. Uhh her name of Cathy Robertson . But she had a sister, but I found one of my sist--my nieces in, uh, in Washington, and she told me about everybody who had died.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: And I couldn't get no satisfaction from that part.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: You have a fan? Do you uh, fan?

DEVORE: I'm okay.

GREY: Um-hm. So, uh, I didn't--I didn't find--never did know. It--her sister, 00:19:00she--my niece told me that she--her name is Beatrice that she, uh, made her career in a show. She travel with shows. See, I never did find her.

DEVORE: Okay, um, uh, I just mentioned about, uh, any form of racial discrimination and you said that was all over here --

GREY: Yeah, I started to say--I started to say that Cassie uh--she was, uh, real fair. And, uh, her and I w--ran--about--we--about the same age, see? And, like, we used to go around in Savannah in different, different places. But I know that it--uh--uh, I wouldn't--didn't--wasn't so good by me getting caught with her. So when we were going someplace, I'd w--walk on one side of the 00:20:00street and she'd walk on the other, or else I'd be way behind and let her go ahead, see? But I would never g--travel with her, you know, that--up and down the street.

DEVORE: Why was that?

GREY: Hmm?

DEVORE: Why was that?

GREY: She was, was passing for white. And that's what I'm saying. She was passing. And she that's, that was in Savannah I figured of myself, I wasn't ready to die yet, and give people the dirt and weight and get to stretching and anything. See, and might hurt me before I could explain it them. So I just didn't let them catch me with her. That's the only discrimination I know of, because we all--we all know how it was down there.

DEVORE: Um, how were they? How would you describe the attitude?

GREY: Hmm, hmm, well, they figured that you were supposed to stay--if you were black, you were supposed to be black, and you stay, uh, away from them, um, um, 00:21:00after what uh. And that's the way that it was, at least, 'cause I wasn't taking no chances, you know, like that.

DEVORE: Okay, um, okay, uh, maybe we'll focus now on your trip north. Um, had you heard any rumors or any warnings, um, from friends or others prior to your trip?

GREY: No. I come up on the free transportation. Uh, uh, then, that particular time, they had it out that it wanted to get on all the colored people from down there that they possibly could. So they sent a--so they sent a, a train from--they wouldn't let us leave at the, ah Union sheds So we had to get the--board the train from--they called it--a place called, uh, Four Mile Hill. That's out from Savannah going--near Charleston, going on, on the way to 00:22:00Charleston. So we had to go out there to get the train coming north. But, uh, train about 13 coaches long, you know? Everybody--all of us tried to go. They didn't want nobody coming ahh that had, had a sat. We all had a--got to have a seat. But the whole gang of them-- didn't have no seat, but they hid when the man come through the checking, see? They would--you hide under the seat and like that--and that's the way we got away from there. And I, uh--every big, uh, city they come to, they would, uh, cut off a car, you know? Leave a car there, like the--like when you change an engine, they would leave a car there. So we find that out--so me and two, uh, three other fellows we, we find that out, and we, we, we changed--we changed cars. (laughs) And, and so we got to the nearly 00:23:00last car, and--(laughs)--when the--the last car, we put us off at Paoli, Pennsylvania. And that's where we--that, that's where--that's when I--we, uh, stopped at. So, they didn't want in particular anybody doing no work or nothing uh. They said they wanted to get them from down there. Said, "You can go any--anyplace you want" a--after you--get you from down there. So we landed in Philadelphia, and, uh, then we started looking for a job. We went one Saturday--went all the way around, and went down the ferry, and went on Jersey, and some people say that was in commit[?] season then. Camden--Campbell Soup factor. So they s--said "Come back Monday morning.." So we all went back there Monday morning, and we got hired.

DEVORE: Okay, um, what was your reason for leaving and wanting to come North?

GREY: (laughs) You shouldn't ask me that. I wanted to get away from down 00:24:00there. That's what I wanted to get away--I wanted to make it better--'cause I was tired of being cooped up like I did. And, uh, I heard that it would be better anywhere f--but down there, you know? So I wanted to come North.

DEVORE: Had you thought about coming back?

GREY: No, I never--f--when I--every time I'd think about coming--going back North--or South, somebody would come up and say something about it, so that changed my mind. I never did go back no more. I never-- until '82, I went down to the church and, uh, seemed like something come over--I don't know where it come from, but I tell one of my friends in the church that I would like to--I felt like I seeing some. I didn't even know whether none of my people were then. You know, it had been 70 years since I seen any of them.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: So he, he went to my pastor, and he told him. I didn't tell him to do 00:25:00that, but he went. And so we, we had a meeting after service. And this was in January, '82. He said, uh--we had a meeting where he called all the trustees and deacons together. So they've--they said, well, I want carry to the church because they have a um-um minister said, "If I do it for you, and afterward all of them will want do it for them," see? So that's how that come out. So they say, "We'll donate for you." Then they donated.

DEVORE: Okay, um, back to the train. Um, did you hear from some of the other people that they had the same reasons for leaving as you did?

GREY: Uh, yeah. Yeah, that's what we, we--everybody who could get away from 00:26:00there. I guess some since me, but I didn't know nothing about the ones come after me, 'cause I was satisfied then, see I um got away myself.

DEVORE: You didn't, um--or rather, you had mentioned that you just wanted to get away. Were there some stories that you heard about the North? Had you heard that you could--

GREY: Yeah, I heard it would have been better--anything would have been better than down there.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: And I heard they would treat you better, and you could get a job and, and do better for yourself. That's what I heard. I heard them talking, but I didn't know if I would. But I wanted to get away from down there anyhow.

DEVORE: Okay, did, did you have money? Did you take food with you on the train?

GREY: No, I didn't. You did--yeah, there was food on the train, but we didn't have no money.

DEVORE: Do you recall the names of, um, the people who, who brought the train down or--

GREY: No, unh-uh.

DEVORE: --the name of the train?

GREY: No. See, I'm, uh, I wasn't um arrested in that part. All I wanted to 00:27:00do was to get away. (laughs) You know?

DEVORE: Okay, all right. Um, so we--we're headed North, and you--you're in Philadelphia now. Could you describe for us how your first night was in Philadelphia after you arrived here?

GREY: No, uh--they--we stopped at a place on--in the railroad, like a shanty. That's where the train ended up at. And it uh I told you they did--they had done--fixed food and everything for us. So, we went--we was working on the railroad there. And the next day we went out there, and was working, and so some of the boys come to Philadelphia and be--went around and got, got acquainted with some people. And they come back and tell us why we laying there, sleeping there, talking about how good Philly, Philly was. So I decided 00:28:00I would try Philly out. So they didn't--they didn't--you know, what I mean. People brought us up there. They didn't mind me. Don't mind you leaving. You could leave anytime, anytime you wanted. So I worked about a y--yeah, about a week, and I got draw my money. And we decided to come to Philadelphia.

DEVORE: Did--

GREY: --to the--to the city, you know? We still in Philadelphia, when then….

DEVORE: Did you have relatives? Did you have any friends up here when you first arrived?

GREY: Um-um, you know, nobody. And what the--what the people there, uh, come up there I think. Couple of other boys come up, them and me then got together, and we got a job at--over at the Campbell Soup factory.

DEVORE: Um, uh, where did you stay at the first night? Did you stay in a boarding home?

GREY: Now, see, I'll tell you, the first night we stayed, we--in a, a--something like a shanty., camp there on the way toward the-- Paoli, Pennsylvania. And we stayed there for a while until, till I got ready to leave. 00:29:00Because after the boys started talking about Philadelphia, we decided we'd go. And we, we went to a rooming home--roo--rooming house, 16th and, and, uh, Lombard. That's where the first house--16th and Lombard, that's the first place we lived.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: Then we--then we, we went--and that morning, we goes back down, down to the ferry. The ferryboat then, you had to walk down there, Market Street.

DEVORE: Um-hmm.

GREY: Hmm.

DEVORE: Okay, um, how would you describe the people in Philadelphia when you first arrived here--(Grey laughs)--and stayed at --

GREY: Yeah, that's that's what I'd like to know now, I can't so well get [?]. But they were--I heard so much of it before I come here that--how they were doing, how they was--and then 16th and South. When I got around there they were 00:30:00sort of rough then. You had to watch no what I saying, had the same idea I guess we had that, uh, waiting to catch them, people come from southern states. So--

DEVORE: Were, were there rumors about southerners, uh, thinking…

GREY: You know, somebody said that they was--they was coming up. And they, uh, didn't supposed to have so much sense, you know? They were supposed to be, uh, uh--had so much brighter than the people coming from the South. Se-see uh ready to take them over if possible, you know? So, that's--so that made me sort of--sort of careful when we did get the job at the Campbell Soup factory. We'd go back and forth and try to k--keep close as we possibly could.

DEVORE: Where they talking about the blacks in Philadelphia, or was this about the white?

GREY: No, they were talking about--they didn't talk about anything so much, but 00:31:00we still had, uh, be careful. That's what we had to be mostly: careful.

DEVORE: Well, how would you describe, um, native Philadelphians? How did they treat you, uh--

GREY: They treated me all right, because, um, mostly I, uh, always or mostly stayed, uh, mostly quiet. I wouldn't--never had too much to s--say and to do around other folks. I let them do the action, but I was people were watching. I was watching and taking it in. But I never--didn't s--so--liked to go around s--get in the company like that.

DEVORE: Well, I had, um, heard, uh, a rumor from a lady who was here around the same period, um, not to get off the subway at Broad and South. That it was very 00:32:00dangerous. Did you hear anything like that?

GREY: No, but it wasn't--it, it, this was always dangerous like that. But it wasn't so much a, a subway and stuff like then--then, you know--that was over sixty some odd years ago.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: And it, it wasn't so much of that kind of stuff then, 'cause we had mostly child go to jail or nothing um on ferryboats. There wasn't no bridge or nothing.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: And, uh, it was much different then than it is now, because you got to watch mostly everybody now.

DEVORE: Oh, that's right. The subway wasn't even in until the 1920s, '25--

GREY: --unh-uh--

DEVORE: --until the 1920s, '25--

GREY: --no, um, that's six--that's Sixteen--1916, and that's quite a few years ago.

DEVORE: But what form of transportation was available to you at that time?

GREY: Hmm?

DEVORE: What--how did you get around in Philadelphia, or did you travel?

GREY: Oh, yeah, we walked. We--and then you had different trolley at different times, you know? And different direction, but most of the time I walked. I 00:33:00used to walk from 16th and South, walked down, you know, not--Market Street. Then we walked down to the ferry and go over travel on that boat and, get a ferryboat and go over.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: With all the ferryboats. There wasn't no bridges no place.

DEVORE: Um-hm. Well, after you had arrived in Philadelphia, um, would you say that your expectations were met? You had expectations of the city before you--

GREY: No--

DEVORE: --arrived here.

GREY: No, I didn't have no--I didn't have no--. I didn't know anything about no Philadelphia.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: N--n--not before I got here.

DEVORE: But your, your expectations on coming--relief from the South--

GREY: --yeah--

DEVORE: --wanting a job. Were those needs met for you when--once you arrived?

GREY: Yeah, uh, I had to figure I would do better if I was coming out of the South. That's the way I felt about it. But I didn't have nobody up here to, to be telling me nothing or, you know, reminding me about anything. We had to make 00:34:00it on ourse--on our own, you know?

DEVORE: Um-hm. (coughs) How would you describe, um--or rather how would you compare Philadelphia to Savannah at that time?

GREY: (laughs) Well--

DEVORE: --the city life versus the --

GREY: Well uh th-the different because, uh, I know about--more about Savannah. And I had to learn about Philadelphia. But I was sort of raised up in my childhood days bout round there. I know most all about that. I did then. If I go there now, it all changed around. A whole lot of streets and stuff I don't nothing about down there now. I went down there and I got lost. I didn't know it, one a those Bryan Baptist Church, that's the only thing I knowed. All the 00:35:00other streets just cut up, just like you do with your projects here. Used to be a lot of, uh, rows of houses here they got, but after they started building these projects, the divi--individual buildings, now, you know, like that.

DEVORE: Um, did the people dress any differently in Philadelphia than they did in Savannah?

GREY: (laughs) I guess they did. But I see mostly it--cool--different climate here, see? That's one part about it--different climate, and they didn't--they didn't have to dress as -- Now well I used to hear that northern states were so cold, and you, you couldn't make it. So I figured I'm coming up, and I bought an overcoat an that's in, uh, July, when I come up here. I got me a extra overcoat an.-- And when I come here I was like to burn up (laughs) I had a--it's cool, though. It's much cooler in the--in the, uh--early in the 00:36:00morning, you know? But in that--and after, when the sun come up, oh now it, it was so hot I--and it seemed like you see the--we called it "The monkey's dancing on the rail," it was so hot. But it was much different because it was cool at nighttime, and hot in the daytime. But, uh, down there, when it gets w--when it--when it's warm, it's warm, see? And, and when we called--when you see a real white frost in the morning, you know you're gonna have a hot day that day, see? So, uh--(laughs)--if you don't see a white frost and wind's blowing we call it "black frost." So that's the way it was with me.

DEVORE: And what did black frost mean?

GREY: It'd mean we'd be hot--uh, cold--cool day after you get up. And if--and the middle of the day would be real cool like. The sun wouldn't be so burning.

DEVORE: Okay, um--

GREY: (inaudible)

DEVORE: --what about, um, segregation? Were there some places in Philadelphia that only blacks could go, and--

GREY: Yeah, there was different--you, you could go there, but that's about all. Different places we went, and, like, like going to bars or anything like that, they would, uh, take your glasses and stuff, and after you drink out of them, break them up like that, ah, right in your face to let you know that they don't appreciate your--be coming in there, see? Until after the w--coming up during the war time so they break that up. They got the whole gang of them going in there make them break up all the glasses--(laughs)--see?

DEVORE: Yeah, a whole gang would go in on purpose?

GREY: --yeah, different time.

DEVORE: (inaudible)?

GREY: Yeah, on purpose and ordered up the stuff, and, and it--(laughs)--and would--he'd break them up and he'd, you know, order something more.

DEVORE: In other words, during the war period, we felt as though having fought 00:38:00in the war--

GREY: --yeah--

DEVORE: --that we shouldn't be treated like that.

GREY: --yeah, that's the way--they, they changed that. And then, l--one time, when we first come there--the--when after they come get, Pennsylvania was dry, you know? And like that, wha, just start selling this--after--when the influenza comes, they made Jersey dry too. (laughs) You--we used to work out and around the First World War, and the influenza come and, uh, they said whiskey would help them. And everybody around s-s-s Friday night, they would crowd there--crowd on the, uh, ferryboats going from over here over there to get whiskey, you know? And so, they did that for quite a long time, and they 00:39:00started rioting on the ferryboat, so that's how they--it made Jersey be dry too.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

GREY: Um-hm. So they couldn't get nothing, no place.

DEVORE: Okay, um, We have a record of a riot on Ellsworth Street.

GREY: Ellsworth?

DEVORE: Are you familiar with that?

GREY: Ellsworth?

DEVORE: Yes.

GREY: No.

DEVORE: Okay. Uh, in terms of movies, uh, I believe it was 1914 or 1916, uh--

GREY: --um-hm--

DEVORE: --uh, there was a movie released called Birth of a Nation. Had you heard anything about that?

GREY: Yeah, I heard that--uh, I heard that, uh--with advertising. And, and I heard that name before. But I can't remember it right now. See, I, I only-- 00:40:00You said I only been 1914. That was before my time.

DEVORE: It was either '14 or '16, I'm not sure.

GREY: Yeah. Well--

DEVORE: --but you say you, you heard advertisements. Uh, had you heard--

GREY: --I heard people talking about something like the Birth of a Nation.

DEVORE: Um-hm.

DEVORE: But I don't remember a whole lot of things way back there . But, uh, I can't remember so well now. And, uh, I think I was here in the--when the, uh, Titanic--I wasn't--no, I wasn't here then. I, I, I wasn't here when the Titanic--uh, I remember the Titanic, but that caused, caused me to start to wondering , and I don't exactly--now, sometimes, I, I, I wouldn't say it to nobody else, but I think I'm older than I'm supposed to be, bef--more than what I say I am, see? But, I can't prove it. I don't have no proof, so--so if got 00:41:00no--have no proof, I can't--I can't tell nobody nothing about it--

[End of interview.]