Interview with Leon Grimes, July 21, 1983

LEON GRIMES: In a more intelligent way.

CHARLES HARDY: OK. Um, you say you're eighty-four now?

GRIMES: I am, yes. Eighty-four.

HARDY: And you were born in the South?

GRIMES: I was born in uh, Palatka, Florida. I don't know if you ever heard of Palatka.

HARDY: Nope.

GRIMES: It's a -- that's an Indian name. Uh, Florida's -- was founded by Seminoles, you know, Indians lived there all the time. But Palatka's an Indian name.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: And I was born in a place called -- that's where I was born, Palatka. I was born in 1899, February 19th, 1899, which is many years.

HARDY: Oh yeah.

GRIMES: (laughter).

HARDY: Now are you -- was this a rural area, small town?

GRIMES: Small town, small town at that time, but now they say it's much -- I've never been back since we left. My mother brought me here when I was thirteen years old. I've never been back. However, my brothers have been back. My 00:01:00brothers have been back. My brothers, I had two brothers, they're both dead. And uh, did I tell you I was eighty-four years old?

HARDY: Yeah, yeah. Why did your mother bring --

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: -- bring the family north?

GRIMES: Brought them -- we -- brought us north because we had uh, relatives in Baltimore, Maryland. I had uh, cousins there that taught, taught school in Maryland. And they insisted that my, my mother bring us up here so we could get a decent education.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: Part -- whatever was -- it would be better than down south, because the South was, in those days, it was real bad, you know.

HARDY: How's that?

GRIMES: For black people. Well, they -- they just didn't uh, believe in no equality at all for black people. That's how, uh, that's what caused all this Civil Rights Movement and all that.

HARDY: Can you give me some examples from, you know, your own experience as a 00:02:00young boy, of--

GRIMES: As a young boy, I'll give you this example, that where I lived in Palatka, Florida, was a -- there was a -- a river by the name of St. John's River. And uh, these uh, let me see what the name of this -- it used to be uh, if you had asked me before, I would have asked me before a, you know, had my thoughts together better than I am now.

HARDY: Yeah. It's OK.

GRIMES: However, I'm just -- you can make what you want of it. Uh, St. John's River, and at the St. John's River, came into Palatka, Florida. And uh, we as boys used to go down to that river and meet these -- these big steam ships, used 00:03:00to bring in rich people from up north. But you wouldn't believe this. But this is, now this is practically the only thing I remember when I was a boy, and that's been many years ago, right then, in Florida. I used to go down to that, my brother and I used to go down to that ship, meet the, meet the ships when they come in. And uh, these rich people would be on there, you know, and they come from up north, you know, to -- and riding all through Florida on these ship, on that ship. And uh, we would go down to the ships, and -- and they would throw money over, and the -- and then like, we was on the -- on the ground, and they up on the ship, you imagine the ship, you know, way up high, and they would throw money out in the sea. See -- see us dance. All the little 00:04:00niggers dancing, you know? Want to see the pickaninnies. Call you pickaninnies, and all that kind of stuff. So uh, and uh, we would -- we would dance, and they'd throw money over to us. And we -- that was a source of income we had, we -- we could go down there, we would try to get there every time when those ships come in, because we knew we was going to get some money. Dancing barefoot. I'll never forget my brother that died, he had -- he uh, he was born with uh, he was born with uh, extra toes. I mean, he didn't have five toes, he had eight toes, you know, six toes. Anyhow, they -- they -- they made fun of that, you know, they'd see him -- see us dancing out on the -- out on that uh, the deck or whatever there was there. And uh, they would throw the money over 00:05:00to us, and, you know, and call you all kinds of little names, pickaninny. We didn't know -- we didn't know what it was. Something like that, but they mostly called you pickaninnies. Said, "Let's see the little pickaninnies dance," make, and they would do that, and we would go down there and that's a terrible incident that I can remember, but I always remembered that after I came even up here for years. And I remember now, even as old as I am.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: You see?

HARDY: Did you have to work as a kid? To help make ends meet?

GRIMES: No, I didn't have to, I didn't have to work, no. Not per se, no, I didn't have to work.

HARDY: All right.

GRIMES: But uh, I -- anywhere you get money when you're a kid, mostly any way you can get money, you will get it, you will do it, do whatever you have to do to get it, that's why -- that's why I think so many of the kids nowadays, they goes into this dope and all that. They want money, I can realize that.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: But I can't sympathize with them robbing older people and all that stuff. You know what I mean? No matter how bad you want money, you know--

HARDY: --yeah.

GRIMES: --senior citizens, let them alone.

HARDY: Right. So your mother then brought you all north, like to Baltimore, did you come?

GRIMES: To Baltimore, we came to Baltimore. Baltimore Maryland, and we went to school, I went to school in Baltimore, the public schools. Then after that, my cousin, which was schoolteachers, sent me to a school down in Maryland, a private school, at that time it was, and uh, it was called Princess Anne Academy, which is now part of the University of Maryland, I belong to the alumni, University of Maryland alumni. Because this school is part of it, and we have -- we have -- we don't have meetings now, but we used to have meetings, 00:07:00and what have you. But I was a member of the University of Maryland alumni. I mean in recent years, because University of Maryland took this school over, that was called Princess Anne Academy. That's down in Princess Anne, Maryland.

HARDY: All right.

GRIMES: Probably heard of Princess Anne.

HARDY: Yeah. My mother's family comes from Maryland.

GRIMES: Oh, is that so?

HARDY: Yeah. Out near Glencoe.

GRIMES: Oh, yeah. Well anyhow, that's -- that's uh, where I went to school. And uh--

HARDY: Yeah, so what -- uh, did you graduate from -- from college then? From the Princess Anne Academy?

GRIMES: I didn't graduate, I matriculated. I got in, you know, some things that I shouldn't have gotten in, especially about girls. I uh, loved girls, so I got involved with one of the girls in school, and got sent away from school.

HARDY: Oh.

GRIMES: But I could have gone back, because my mother had a good job, had -- had got -- come to Philadelphia and had a good job working domestic in a private family. She made good and she wanted me to keep on in school, you know? To finish and everything, but I didn't.

HARDY: You decided not to go back?

GRIMES: I didn't go back, no. I could have gone back, back to there, because I was -- I was suspended, I wasn't expelled.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: That's a long story, I don't want to go into that.

HARDY: OK. So what'd you do then?

GRIMES: Well, after that, I came -- came to -- my mother had moved to Philadelphia, as I just said, and I came to Philadelphia, and uh, instead of a -- she kept insisting that I go back to school again. But I -- I didn't have no 00:09:00idea. I got into things right here in Philadelphia that I shouldn't have gotten into. I -- instead of going back to school, and all of that, and have ambition to do something so I could be somebody, I -- I got involved in all kind of things, like gambling and, you know, sporting and running around,

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: and what have you. I got involved in all that kind of stuff. And uh, I never did finish school, which I should have done.

HARDY: Can you tell me your first -- so you -- when you were suspended, you came up to the city, what were your -- what was your first impression of Philadelphia when you arrived?

GRIMES: Well, uh, you soon find the wrong things in the city. Sooner or later you really do. I found every -- I did everything wrong in Philadelphia that I shouldn't have done, as I said.

HARDY: Can you give me -- really, you can give me some examples? This is fascinating, because most people uh, you know, have heard about the gambling and the numbers and those sorts of things--

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: --but haven't talked to anybody with, you know, personal experience of how -- how these things actually worked in this city.

GRIMES: Yeah, well you -- you uh, they had clubs and things, and I was a -- I used to go to these clubs, gambling, they were gambling clubs, you know. Like now they got casinos and things like that, but I used to go to the gambling clubs, and gamble all night sometimes. My mother would be home, and wondering where I am. But that wouldn't bother me, I would gamble all night, and all kind of things. Gambling, go to parties and drinking, and all that kind of stuff.

HARDY: Can you describe a club for me?

GRIMES: Well it wasn't actually a club, but it was a -- like anybody could make 00:11:00a club, like take this apartment where I'm living now, put a big pool table in there, and -- and uh, have dice on it, you know. Of course, they do that, they have that now, don't they in the casinos.

HARDY: Oh yeah.

GRIMES: Well anyhow, they'd put a big pool table, say for instance, right over there. And -- and maybe 50 or sometimes more men would come into this club, I mean, they call it a club, and uh, you know, you would gamble. Dice, mostly. Sometimes they'd have poker rooms upstairs, or somewhere else, but mostly it was dice.

HARDY: Did, uh-- what sort of people -- well, can you describe the clientele?

GRIMES: Oh, terrible. People that, you know, hustlers. I mean, them -- them people. A lot of those people on that just did that, but professional. I mean, 00:12:00not professional, I wouldn't say, but that's all they did. And they was looking for somebody easy, you know? They knew about dice, they knew about loading the dice, they knew about all kind of things. And uh, they call you -- well I guess I was an easy bait, I don't know. Anyhow, I know I -- I'd lose mostly, I never would win too much.

HARDY: Did um, where -- where would these places be located? Were they --

GRIMES: They'd be located in a -- in a house, or --

HARDY: Any particular part of town?

GRIMES: No, anywhere they could find. Any place they could find. Yeah.

HARDY: Sort of floating games, then.

GRIMES: Yeah, like that.

HARDY: Oh. Was -- was this uh, pretty widespread then?

GRIMES: Yeah, it was widespread all over Philadelphia.

HARDY: Oh.

GRIMES: North, south, east, and west. Yeah. All over.

HARDY: Now the uh, the men who did the gambling in there, came in, were they 00:13:00mostly up from the South, or were they native Philadelphians, too? Or what was the story there?

GRIMES: Well they -- they -- they were people -- most of the people here came from the South. I mean, black people in years past.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: And uh, that's what they were, they were people that -- mostly from the South and all.

HARDY: Can you describe me any, uh incidents that stand out in your mind from those experiences? There must be one or two colorful stories, or--

GRIMES: Yeah. I don't know, I would -- a lot of bad things happened in those places. A lot of bad things.

HARDY: As for example?

GRIMES: As for example, uh, a man they called the stickman would be on the -- running the dice table, you know? And he would, uh -- he was a mean guy, I 00:14:00mean, he would keep everybody straight. Well, they do that now, in -- but they don't do it, they do it in a more intelligent way, I guess. I guess in the casinos and all. So uh, anyhow, he would uh, as you would make -- go wrong, or something like that, the stickman, he would hit you on the hand, hit you on the knuckle sometimes, if you make a -- a -- make a -- if he'd catch you doing something that you shouldn't do. You know, while you're gambling, there. He -- he'd hit you on the knuckles with that stick, called stickman, he'd take -- the stickman, he would just take the stick and he'd roll the dice out, and then he'd roll -- bring them back like that. I guess they do that now. In the -- I don't go to the casinos, I guess they do that now. You know, you roll them out, and he'd roll them back. But he was a mean man, but he would uh, if you did 00:15:00something wrong, he'd hit you across the knuckles with that thing, you know, yeah. That's one of the things I can remember, but far be for me now, I know, I have no -- stopped doing that years and years ago.

HARDY: All right. Did women go to these places, too?

GRIMES: Yeah. Once in a while, women would go. Once in a while you'd see maybe one or two women would uh, be in there. But it wouldn't be often that you'd see women, very few women.

HARDY: So were you holding a job then, during your really, you know, wild years?

GRIMES: Yeah, I was holding a job, I was -- I was working, I came in, I got a job with Horn and Hardart, Company I retired from. I -- I uh, worked for them thirty-seven -- thirty-seven years.

HARDY: Hmm. How did you get your job?

GRIMES: I got the job because it was uh, frankly, only job you could get in those days, you know, in Philadelphia because jobs was very scarce, like they are now, for black -- especially for black people. And Horn and Hardart used to hire young blacks. And uh, I -- I got with them, and I stayed with them 37 years until I retired.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: I raised my family and everything working for Horn and Hardart You ever heard of Horn and Hardart?

HARDY: Oh sure.

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: They have a couple of places left now. They went bankrupt.

HARDY: There's one up on Bala-- in Bala Cynwyd Shopping Center there, .

GRIMES: Yeah, and they got one at Thirty Street Station.

HARDY: Huh.

GRIMES: I go over there now and get that soup, because I like that soup. Best soup in the world, I believe.

HARDY: Uh-huh.

GRIMES: Anyhow uh.

HARDY: So what year did you arrive in Philadelphia then? When you --

GRIMES: --well I don't know, I'd have to figure that out, can you figure it out?

HARDY: Sure, I'll figure it out.

GRIMES: It does. Let's see, I would say uh, because I stayed in school three years, three terms, three years before I got sent away. And uh, I was -- let me see. What year -- what -- what year did I come here, you said?

HARDY: Yeah. So--

GRIMES: Oh.

HARDY: Well how old were you when you started um, St. Anne's?

GRIMES: Princess Anne.

HARDY: Yeah, Princess Anne.

GRIMES: I was, uh, I was -- I was thinking, was a-- about -- about twenty, 00:18:00twenty-two or three, something right along there.

HARDY: When you started, or when you were suspended?

GRIMES: When I was suspended.

HARDY: OK. So if you're eighty-four now, then um, ninety-nine, so you came up probably about 1922.

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: Twenty-three.

GRIMES: That's right.

HARDY: Where did you uh, stay when you arrived in the city?

GRIMES: My mother had uh, let me see-- My mother had rented a room, had rented a room, you know, rented a room, and uh, I lived where -- where she lived. On 00:19:00uh, mostly we lived in South Philadelphia all the time. Uh, Christian Street, and Catherine Street, we lived there, we lived 1500 block, Catherine Street, we lived. And we lived at -- we lived several places, but I can't just--

HARDY: Did she do live-in work, or was she live out when she was a domestic?

GRIMES: No, she did work -- she would go out to work. You know, she would go where she worked at. And uh --

HARDY: --so she lived with the family.

GRIMES: Yeah. She stayed with the family a lot, until -- until she got her own place. Finally she got her own house. She -- when she uh, yeah, my mother 00:20:00bought a -- uh, didn't buy, but she rented a house. Had her own house.

HARDY: Yeah. Now, domestic work to me is really interesting, because so many uh, women did that, you know, from the South--

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: --it seems that that was really the major job.

GRIMES: Yeah, that's right, that was all that you could get.

HARDY: Yeah. Was there any -- the other thing I -- I've been trying to read up on, domestic work, and in some of the books I've read, apparently there was somewhat of a stigma attached to it. Women didn't like to do it unless they had to.

GRIMES: No, they didn't like to do it, and uh, but mostly, those was good jobs. Because the people would -- the people that my mother worked for, mostly would treat her extra nice, you know. Because uh, they were good jobs. Matter of 00:21:00fact, they made a good living at it.

HARDY: Mm. Why didn't women like to do it? Any idea?

GRIMES: Well I think they didn't like to do it because -- some women didn't like to do it, because it was, you know, just being domestic and uh, the stigma of cleaning somebody's house. Look, something that you look down on, but you shouldn't. I don't think it's nothing to look down on, you clean your own house. So I don't think that uh, that's something to, you know, to look down on, as something degrading or anything like that.

HARDY: Uh, did she ever talk about work?

GRIMES: Well, I never heard her exactly con-- condemn that work, I never heard her talk against it too much. She was sending me to school by doing it, all that. So, I don't know whether she thought anything against it or not.

HARDY: Right. Were your brothers going to school then, too?

GRIMES: No, they weren't going to school up here. They both were at -- wasn't here, was one in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, my oldest brother that died. He was in Johnstown, Pennsylvania. And he worked up there for a steel car company.

HARDY: How about your other brother? So you had one up in Johnstown working the steel car--

GRIMES: Yeah, one -- one was here -- One was here with me, with us, and he stayed with me and my mother.

HARDY: And what did he do?

GRIMES: He was a soda bottler. He finally ended up with Frank's Bottling Works.

HARDY: Oh.

GRIMES: He was head man down there.

HARDY: So when you came to Philadelphia, what were your aspirations? What did you figure you were going to be able to do in the city, or?

GRIMES: I didn't figure nothing, really, like I should have. I should have figured that I was going back to school, that's just what I should have done, but I didn't. I got in the wrong environment, you know.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Changed in the years to come, but it was too late then, I guess.

HARDY: Right. Did you run with a -- a gang then or any group of fellows?

GRIMES: Ran with the -- ran with the girls, and, you know, loose girls and all kind of things like that.

HARDY: Where were they located? That's something-- you know, I talked to a fellow, he's an Irishman--

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: --who grew up over on Spring Garden Street, ran with a gang when he was a kid, and he told me all about the Tenderloin District, you know, when he was a kid. And that was really fascinating to -- see, that sort of thing doesn't 00:24:00exist today the way it did back then.

GRIMES: No, it doesn't exist, but it exists in a different way.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: It exists now.

HARDY: Yeah. But see, it's not as--

GRIMES: --now, what they do now, they get into the drugs and all that.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: Which is -- back in those days, we got into things, but it wasn't like drugs and all that, it was a -- it was uh, like drinking and, you'd get into drinking, all right. And drinking and uh, gambling, and things like that.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: But uh, what did you ask me?

HARDY: I was -- I was asking you, I was saying that I was very curious to find out more about, you know, the loose women, the Tenderloin or, now I know the -- the Tenderloin for uh, for the white population, I guess, was up along Seventh and Callow Hill.

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: Up through there.

GRIMES: Well, this is the -- you find these women all around down, around South Street, years ago, it used to be around Thirteenth and South. All around there, 00:25:00you'd find all kinds of loose women and what have you. And you'd go down there at night, they'd beat you up just like they do now.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: That was years ago. They'd be -- get people to rob you and all that kind of stuff.

HARDY: So Thirteenth and South was the dangerous section?

GRIMES: Yeah. It was a bad section.

HARDY: Mm.

GRIMES: Rodman and all around in there now where they are making Society Hill now, they call part of that place all around down there now. But that used to be a terrible section for underworld activities.

HARDY: Were there any kingpins of it? You know, outstanding gamblers or madams who sort of controlled some of the trade or business?

GRIMES: Well, I can -- I can't uh, think of any one person, except maybe -- 00:26:00yeah, there was -- there was men in that gambling, you mean in the gambling rings and things?

HARDY: The gambling, or the booze, or the prostitution, yeah, any of it. Now I know there was Max Duffy, one of the uh--

GRIMES: --yeah, I didn't -- don't know about him, but I do know about uh, used to be a black man, used to have a number of gambling places, by the name of Wise. But I can't go back into that, you know, calling to remember exactly about it, and all that.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: But he would, uh, organize -- I mean, and running these clubs and things. These little joints they called clubs, he'd run them. But they had 00:27:00men, what they called hustlers in them days, they would uh, that's all they would do, they wouldn't do nothing with us. Some of them wore big diamonds and they gambled, and they'd lose their money, they'd pull off one of those big rings, get money on it, and, you know, tell the -- whoever running the game, they'd loan them maybe $100 or $50, and hold onto one of those rings, or one of those big gold chains, some of them wear big golden chains, hanging down all around there. Pure gold. They'd buy them. This is -- there doesn't seem to be too much interesting, but I'm trying to do the best I can.

HARDY: No, no, it's very, it's great. You know, it is interesting, it's fascinating. Because this is something, you know, that I -- I really know very little about, and it -- that was part of the world back then.

GRIMES: It was, yeah. Part of the world, that's right. But let me tell you 00:28:00about uh -- my work experience.

HARDY: OK.

GRIMES: Now, I worked for Horn & Hardart I told you, I was practically raised up from a boy with them, almost. And uh, I seen my-- I'm going to give you ideas of discrimination, at Horn & Hardart because I was the only one to fight it. I seen that the whites used to get -- come in there, and as boys, as young -- you know, young white workers, come in and work, and uh, pretty soon they'd be managers. They'd promote them, you know, but we'd stay one thing, like I was a kitchen man, they'd call you. Wouldn't call you cook, I was a kitchen man, 00:29:00and they'd keep me right there all my life if I stayed, you know. Some -- some black people quit. A lot of them quit and went to the Navy Yard and what have you. But I stayed right with them. It wasn't that I shouldn't -- I shouldn't have stayed, though. But uh, seems that um, I could take that discrimination. I could take it, you know, because I knew that there wasn't no other hope for me.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: I took it. That uh-- come in and for an instance, I'll give you an example of what I'm trying to say, because I can't get it straight. Uh, they would come in, and bring a young white boy, maybe just your age or somewhere 00:30:00right along with you, you know, as far as age is concerned. And I had been a, head kitchen-- but they called me a head kitchen man. But I was actually head cook. But they wouldn't say you was the head cook because, you know, I guess they didn't want to recognize you or something. But I was really a head cook, I could do anything in the whole firm, no matter what it was, as far as cooking. And organizing kitchens and things like that. (coughs) Anyhow, they'd bring the white boy in to me, many times I seen this happen. They'd bring the white boy into me, say, "Grimes, we got a boy here we want you to train." Say, "Yeah, all right." They say, "Show him the ropes." I says, "All right." So sometimes we'd train the boy, and make a long story short, before you know it, he was the 00:31:00manager over me. (laughter) And I'd been there all my life, you see what I'm talking about?

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: So this was happening for years. Finally, it's -- it ended though, of course it had to then, because the civil rights laws came and they couldn't do that no more. It ended. But uh I would see these managers, I mean these boys come in, and -- and I would still be there on that job, and never would get no promotion or nothing. Stay right there.

HARDY: Did you ever protest over it?

GRIMES: Oh yes, I did.

HARDY: What happened?

GRIMES: I protested one -- one time I protested too much, almost got fired. But, I wasn't. I was scared to, because I had children. I had a -- I had a wife, and two children by that time. I was scared, in a way. And uh, they were -- I told them I wanted a better job, because I got a family, I said, "I've got 00:32:00to have a promotion." They said, "What you want to be?" one of the head men, says, "What you -- what you want?" I says, "I can be a manager." I said, "I've been around this company many years." I said, "I can manage, something like that." He cut me off, you know he didn't want to hear that. "Well Grimes," he says, "we'll see what we can do." You know, but I never did hear no more from him. And they -- they tried their best to -- to uh, I think they tried to get enough on me so they could fire me.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: But they never did. They never did. But when uh, time come that we -- they had a company union, what they called a company union. In other words, they would pay you, and they said, "Well, this is your -- we got a union, and 00:33:00uh, if you retire, we'll -- they'll give you $50 a month," something like that. It's their own -- it's their own union, they called it. But in late-- later years, they -- a union was set up by a regular union, you know, regular restaurant union was set up. But I never did join that union.

HARDY: Why not?

GRIMES: You was afraid, you was afraid to join a union because they would -- they would -- they was fighting against the union themselves, the company. So they would uh, you know, practically tell people, say, "Well look, you join the union, we're going to get rid of you, you know." So a lot of us older ones didn't join the union. But then in the years coming, they -- they -- they -- they'd get a union, the union did come in, and it's in today. But um, I fought 00:34:00the union. I mean, I didn't fight the union, I fought the -- the company. Because uh, finally the government got in on it. The United States government got on it. I was in a hearing down to uh, to uh--

HARDY: Was it Washington, or Harrisburg?

GRIMES: No, right here. Right here.

HARDY: Right in the city?

GRIMES: Yeah. One of the -- one of the uh, Senator Williams was going to -- I think he died, didn't he? No.

HARDY: I don't know.

GRIMES: I don't know if he died, or what. Anyhow, he was the one that held a hearing here, and the government got in on it, and I -- and I was one of the witnesses, because I had complained, you know, and uh, I fought against this uh, discrimination, and stuff like that. Matter of fact, I was uh, like I wish I 00:35:00could give it to you, like -- like to make more sense, but I didn't save the --

HARDY: Well it's pretty clear.

GRIMES: But anyhow, I -- I fought against the discrimination part, and all that stuff.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: And uh, they didn't like it, the company, you know, naturally they wouldn't like that.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: So uh, I was -- I was on television all, and, you know, the city -- Channel Three got it, that was -- quite a number of years -- this was '62, I believe it, was '60.

HARDY: Oh.

GRIMES: Somewhere along in there.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Channel Three got it, all the stations got it. Matter of fact, it went all over the United States. You weren't old enough to know about this, were you?

HARDY: Well I was old enough to know, but I was up in New York in those days.

GRIMES: Oh, you was up -- yeah.

HARDY: I was actually probably a little young to be paying attention at that point.

GRIMES: But anyhow--

HARDY: --I was about ten or eleven.

GRIMES: --anyhow, it went all over the country. And I uh, my -- my -- I was uh, televised on television, you know. And uh, went all over the United States. Matter of fact, I was -- back in those days, it was a big deal, I don't see where it was a big deal, though, it was a big deal to be on national television, on any television back in those days.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Like, for a black man, you know.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Like now it's a common occurrence. But you would be surprised, it was a big deal to be on television.

HARDY: Yeah. So when you started at Horn and Hardart then, I guess in the early days, black men were confined to the -- the lower jobs in the back rooms?

GRIMES: Yeah, the kitchen, the lower jobs, what have you.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: If you said anything, they didn't -- you know, they wanted to fire you, you know.

HARDY: Did -- but Horn and Hardart itself, the restaurant, served black people.

GRIMES: Oh yeah, they served black people.

HARDY: I guess I was --

GRIMES: Reluctantly.

HARDY: Huh.

GRIMES: I would say. I don't say that they loved to do it and all that, but they did it --

HARDY: Because by reputation, Horn and Hardart's was one of the few places in the city where blacks could go and --

GRIMES: Yeah, they did it -- yeah, they did it, uh, because they didn't want -- I -- I think that they didn't want people to -- to say that they didn't, you know? I think they just did it reluctantly. I -- I don't believe that they really -- because if they did, they would -- they would have promoted me, you know?

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Not treat me like uh, somebody, after all the years I've worked and all that.

HARDY: Right. Did you ever go to the Standard Theater?

GRIMES: Yeah, I used to go to the Standard.

HARDY: Who was the fellow who ran that? Was his name Gibson or something?

GRIMES: Yeah, that was at Twelfth and South.

HARDY: Can you tell me anything about him?

GRIMES: You know about that?

HARDY: Oh, just a little bit. I'd like to find out more.

GRIMES: Well, the Standard Theatre, in those days, was way down at Twelfth and South. And I just got to telling you about Thirteenth and uh, South, and all around in there. Well that was the Tenderloin District. I say Tenderloin, I mean. And uh, used to go down there and have -- they have the -- the different shows and things like that, mostly. Black face comedians and what have you.

HARDY: What were -- can -- describe me a typical, uh, evening at the Standard. Think you remember -- remember what that was like?

GRIMES: What do you mean, typical?

HARDY: Well, let's say an evening on the town, bringing -- you know, going to 00:39:00the Standard included. What would take place?

GRIMES: Well mostly, uh, just a vaudeville -- like vaudeville show, and blackface comedians. Used to have a comedian, he used to come there all the time, by the name of Sandy Burns, blackface comedian. And uh, that's what it mostly was, just shows, jokes and things like that. Women and -- on the stage, and what have you. But it was a -- wasn't bad, considering the times, you know?

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: No, it was a --

HARDY: Was that an all-black audience down there?

GRIMES: Yeah, mostly all black. Once in a while you'd see a few white people, but mostly all black.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: But I'll tell you, a lot of things went on in Philadelphia at that, even though it wasn't outright segregated like uh, down south, but it was still, 00:40:00you know, I mean, it was still the essence of it. I mean, they uh -- for instance, I seen the times, we used to go to the theaters, like on uh, Market Street, you know, and I'd stand and uh, the theater on Sixteenth Street was the Fox, and they tore it down, didn't they?

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: The Fox Theater, Standard, that used to be next door to it. You'd go in those theaters. And they would find the least excuse if you was black, to keep you out of those theaters. You wouldn't believe it. I don't know what have you heard about that.

HARDY: Yeah, yeah. Well, what -- so what would they use as an excuse, for instance.

GRIMES: The least excuse, if you weren't -- if you weren't uh, dressed up with 00:41:00a collar and a tie, and all that sort of stuff on. And they'd say, "Well you're not dressed right, you can't come in here." And if you came in -- a lot of times when you got in, years ago, they used to have to sit in the balcony, mostly. You couldn't sit in the first floor, they wouldn't take you -- the ushers -- ushers wouldn't take you there.

HARDY: Hmm. How did you feel about that?

GRIMES: You didn't feel good about it, I know that. There's no way you could feel good about it. But uh, they just wouldn't take you there, if you went in the theater, they automatically take you upstairs, you know, if you was black. That's right here in Philadelphia. I don't -- I don't know whether you want to hear about that or not.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: But that's -- that's right. A lot of things happened right here. For instance, like the church and all that. There was uh, things that shouldn't 00:42:00have been, people had, uh, to do, you know, you couldn't help yourself. Wasn't nothing you could do about it.

HARDY: Hmm. Can you think of some other examples of how uh, segregation worked in Philadelphia when you were a young man?

GRIMES: These things don't just come to you all at once.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: Uh, I can give you one answer then. That uh, you a liberal man, I know you would -- you uh, prepared to hear all these things. So, I used to work -- just to give you an idea of how prejudice runs, I don't know whether this would be, I should seem to say this or not. Prejudice ran in so many different ways 00:43:00when you're black. They didn't want to see you even hardly talk with a white woman, believe me. I'm telling you what I know, because I was, in years back, I was a very handsome man. I mean, considering, I hate to say that about myself, but--

HARDY: --oh.

GRIMES: --but the girls mostly said I was handsome, you know? Even today, you know, people say, you know, they -- like here, right here, I'm -- I'm a floor representative of this whole floor, and uh, they all look, you know, treat me very nice. But anyhow, in those days, you -- a black man couldn't even be seen on the street with a white woman, unless people turn all around and uh, make a big deal of it, you know? That nigger -- that nigger with that white woman, you know, you could hear it. So anyhow, I worked for Horn and Hardart over in 00:44:00Camden once, and uh, one time, I was working in Broadway and Kaighn Avenue. It was a new place I opened, I helped -- helped them to open the place up. And my girlfriend, my girlfriend that I was going with that time was real light complected black girl. Say black now, they'd say colored in them days.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Uh, she would meet me over there at night, because I was working the night shift. And uh, she would meet me over there on Broadway and Kaighn Avenue Camden, just to give you an example of how much prejudice there was. And I used to come back on the bus, come over the bridge, you know, on the bus just like you do now, I'd get on the bus at -- at Broadway and Kaighn, and uh, come on 00:45:00back home when I lived over here in Philadelphia. And uh, one night, this uh, should I say this? Yeah.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: Yeah, you want --.

HARDY: The historical record, people--

GRIMES: -- I'll keep on. Anyhow, one night, these two sailors was on that -- on that bus when I got on. And uh, evidently, they thought that this girl -- this girl was real light as you are, believe me, and you're white. You're white, but this girl was as light as you are, anybody -- white people couldn't tell whether she was white or black, you seen black people like that.

HARDY: Sure. Yeah.

GRIMES: Well anyhow, she, when I got on the bus, uh, the two sailors was 00:46:00sitting in the back of the bus, so one of them said, "Look at that nigger over there with a white woman. Let's get him." You know, -- show you. And so, I sat -- went in the middle of the bus and sat down with her, and uh, one of them hollered out, "All the niggers supposed to go in the back of the bus. Sit back in the back," you know, like that. One of them trying to aggravate me. So I pull a knife -- I had a knife about that long. I carried it because uh, coming back from over there at night, even if she wasn't with me, was rough, it was a lot of hoodlums on those buses, and I was scared that I would get -- so I carried this knife, so I pulled out this knife, and my girl that I was with, she jumped, oh she started to get -- she said, "Leon, don't do that." She says, "My 00:47:00God, what you going to do with this thing?" I said, "I'm going to kill one of them bastards." Excuse me.

HARDY: Hmm.

GRIMES: So anyhow, I said, "If he bothers me, and he say anything, come up here and say anything to me," I was sitting in the front of the bus, you know, and ----(??)---- niggers gotta go in the back. And uh, I said, "If he just come up here, anywhere near here I'm going to stick this thing in him." She said, "God, don't get in no trouble." She started hollering, you know, talking to me, and anyhow, they didn't -- I mean, they didn't bother me that night, they didn't -- they didn't bother me, but I'm just giving you this example of what black people went through years ago.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Even on the bus. You -- you -- it was right here in Philadelphia, that wasn't down south.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: And uh--

HARDY: You all must have -- you know, when you were talking with friends or 00:48:00family, you all must have talked about how things compared in Philadelphia to the South. You know, or -- or -- or about these sorts of things. What did -- what did people say about it? You know, what -- how did people--

GRIMES: --Well, they talked about it, they talked about it all right, you'd better believe it. But they wouldn't do anything about it. I mean, and uh, they wouldn't uh -- like when uh, the Civil Rights movement came in, you know, then they got so they weren't afraid to speak out against it.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: It was very seldom that uh, you know, you would aggravate that -- those people, and you wouldn't aggravate them, but if -- if one of them bothered you, you -- most people would protect themselves, I know that. I can tell you, when that one incident that I remember very well, that happened to me at Broad and -- 00:49:00and -- Broad and Chestnut, you know where that is?

HARDY: Sure.

GRIMES: It's been years ago, happened to me there. I was coming from work one night, and I had a -- sometimes I would walk home. I was working at Fifteenth and Market. Excuse me, I'm going to the bathroom.

HARDY: OK, sure.

GRIMES: Be right back.

(break in audio)

GRIMES: Uh, I'll tell you about this. I don't know if you can make anything out of these things or not.

HARDY: Oh yeah.

GRIMES: However, I think it's a very nice, nice uh, thing you're doing. I think it's nice, it's sort of a program you're making, and I think it's very nice.

HARDY: I think it's pretty important. You know I did -- last year, I did 13 programs--

GRIMES: --because the young people now, especially -- especially young white people, they don't know -- really know what they -- they know about the Civil Rights movement, but they don't really know what, you know, the actual 00:50:00experience was.

HARDY: They don't know what it was like to live in Philadelphia, you know all the stuff took place in the South. Not Philadelphia.

GRIMES: That's right, yeah. They don't really know. But anyhow, I'll tell you this, and then I think that you maybe can make something out of some of it. Uh, this was a holiday. I was coming from the same Horn & Hardart, and I worked at that time at the Fifteenth and Market Street, on a big -- one of the biggest restaurants in the whole city. Fifteenth and Market. And uh, it was on a Fourth of July night, I had worked all day. And uh, I was -- at that time, I -- I would walk home a lot of times. I would walk home a lot of times. You know, to save car fare and what have you. So I'd walk -- I walked from Fifteenth and 00:51:00Market right around Juniper Street, and I came on I was going to get to Broad Street. So just about the time I got to uh, right out City Hall, right in front of City Hall, on Broad Street, you know where Juniper and Broad is?

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: Right along in there. They used to have, in those days, they used to have guns, big cannons, on the -- on the streets. A lot of people don't know about that, either. Used to have cannons on the street. And uh, being a holiday, they would -- they would shoot those cannons. You know, one would go off, you know? Boom. So, just about the time I got to uh, almost to Chester Street, across from City Hall, this cannon, one of these cannons shot. Boom, 00:52:00like that. So, I jumped, because I hadn't -- I didn't realize that they were shooting, you know, and being Fourth of July, I guess that's the way they were celebrating it. So anyhow, behind me was a -- again, there was a sailor. Sailors was, I hate to specify sailors, but sailors was mean in those days, mostly black people had trouble with sailors and things, because they wouldn't let -- in them days, Uncle Sam didn't let no black people in the Navy at all. You didn't know that, did you?

HARDY: Oh yeah, I knew that.

GRIMES: No -- no black people.

HARDY: But they let them in as cooks, right?

GRIMES: That's right. Just cooks.

HARDY: Or as -- or as haulers.

GRIMES: Haulers, or cook, or something like that. Stevedore, something like that.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: But anyhow, behind me was walking this sailor, and uh, when that gun 00:53:00shot off, I was by myself. This little sailor, he was smaller than me and everything, there wasn't no way I could be afraid of him. So he said to me, he said, "Hey nigger, that there -- that there" -- he's from, evidently, must have been from down South. He said, "That there gun scare you?" And when he called me nigger, I went up and grabbed him, you know? I grabbed him by the shirt, I said, "What'd you say?" I said, "Say that again." He said, "That there gun scare you?" I said -- I grabbed him again, I said, "I'm going to beat your brains out," you know? So I started pounding on him. And uh, and made a big commotion, and the people all crowded around, you know, nobody didn't bother me, but -- except I was -- I was determined I was going to beat him -- beat that little guy up. So anyhow, they uh, he kept on walking until we got to Broad -- 00:54:00Broad and Chestnut. And uh, by that time, policeman, white policeman, he came -- he came out of nowhere, I don't know where he came from. He said, ? what's the matter going -- what's going on here? I told him, I says, "The guy called me a nigger." I said, "I'm going to beat his brains out." He said, he looked, he said, "Well," he says, he says, "I -- I can realize what you're talking about," he says, "he called you out your name." I said, "Yeah, I'm going to beat his damn brains out." So uh, he says, uh, "Well," he said, "I can realize that," he said, "but don't beat him up on -- on my beat." He said, "Let it 00:55:00drop, let it drop now, you go ahead on, and you go ahead on." Sent him one way. That was a nice cop, wasn't it? Anyhow, he said, "Don't beat him up on my beat." But I -- I shouldn't even mention that, should I? But anyhow, that just shows you how people was, yeah.

HARDY: It shows how--

GRIMES: --how people was in those days. Mean, some of them was mean. Some are still mean, but they don't show it.

HARDY: Sure.

GRIMES: They don't show it as much, you know?

HARDY: Unless they're running in a large gang, I think.

GRIMES: No. They don't show that much, they keep it in them.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: And uh, they don't bring it out like they did in those days.

HARDY: Did you ever -- did you ever run into any trouble with the magistrates or the police during your gambling days?

GRIMES: No, I never did, except that they would raid the places once in a while, I'd been in raids once in a while. But other than that, I never ran into too much trouble. I was always afraid of getting into trouble.

HARDY: Did we -- did you have a -- did you vote when you came to the city? Anything to do with politics?

GRIMES: Yeah, I voted. I voted, and finally I registered and voted and all. But I didn't take no active part in it, you know.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: Like I would try to do something about nothin'.

HARDY: Did you vote straight, or were you aware of some of the uh, illicit practices that were common in the city back then?

GRIMES: Yeah, I used to vote, but I wasn't -- didn't -- I -- I said, I didn't take no active part back -- you know, when you vote, you ought to use your vote to your advantage.

HARDY: Right. Because I know, you know, voting was a -- back then, could be done many different ways.

GRIMES: Yeah. Yeah, many different ways, yeah, sometimes they would uh, you vote -- you go to the polls to vote, and they would uh, give you money, you know, to vote a certain way, you know? Especially in neighborhoods down in 00:57:00South Philadelphia, I mostly lived in South Philadelphia in those days. And uh, you'd go to the polls, they would pay you off to vote a certain way. Way they -- way they wanted you to vote, they'd pay you, give you money.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: So a lot of people would sell their votes. I don't know if you'd heard that or not.

HARDY: Oh yeah. Yeah.

GRIMES: But a lot of them would sell their votes, because they needed money, you know, and they'd do that. But that was awful, I would never.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: But they'd do it.

HARDY: Did you read any of the uh, black newspapers in the city? The Tribune, or Afro-American, or The Independent?

GRIMES: Yeah, mostly all the black people read those papers. Mostly, yeah, The Tribune especially.

HARDY: The Tribune was -- was the sort of standard one?

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: Do you remember The Independent?

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: What can you tell me about--

GRIMES: --the Philadelphia Independent, they all -- The Independent and The Tribune, The Independent went out of -- they went out of business, I believe.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: And uh -- but The Tribune is the oldest one, the oldest black paper in the whole United States.

HARDY: What -- what was The Tribune like? What sort of news could you get there that you didn't--

GRIMES: --just about like it is now. Only you get more -- more news now, but mostly in those days, they would uh, make headlines of uh, what black people would do against black people, you know? A lot of blacks, a lot of black people do more harm to black people than any other people.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: Just the way it is now.

HARDY: Yeah, that's what they say about the crime statistics.

GRIMES: Yeah, that's right. That's right, that's the way it is now. And The Tribune would write about those things, and about uh, any headline that -- that 00:59:00uh, a white man did -- did to a black man would be publicized big, big, big type, you know? I think they made too much of that. Like, police brutality and all that. They would make big news of that.

HARDY: Right. Well let me see, we've covered a good deal of territory.

GRIMES: Well I don't know if you can use any of this stuff.

HARDY: Oh yeah. Yeah.

GRIMES: But anyhow, it's up to you.

HARDY: It's all very good, you know, you take a little piece here, a little piece there, that's -- see how all the programs work themselves together. Do you um--

GRIMES: --I wish I could have gave it to you in a better detail.

HARDY: Well, that's OK.

GRIMES: Had I been able to, you know, studied a little while, I could have figured it out.

HARDY: Right. Well, maybe I'll get back to you, you know, some other time when 01:00:00-- I'm going to be working on this project for the next six months, probably.

GRIMES: You are?

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: All right.

HARDY: Let me -- let me ask you one or two final questions. Let me do that. When you were a young man, I'm -- I'm curious as -- as a lot of people up from the South--

GRIMES: --yeah.

HARDY: --in -- in the teens and the Twenties, and I'm curious as to how they felt about living in Philadelphia. And how Philadelphia compared in -- in your mind or the minds of your friends, or associates, to the -- the life they'd left behind, or you left behind, in the South.

GRIMES: Much better. Philadelphia was paradise to parts of the South. Even though it wasn't -- things happened here, almost. I mean, it wasn't -- you know, it wasn't like Heaven, but it was -- it was really uh, much better than being 01:01:00down South. Much better. That's why so many black people are up here.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: So many came up here. And uh, what -- what -- what I think now, I think that the -- what's happening now, like uh, in these cities, where all these thousands of black people came from the South, I think that the -- that uh, I mean I think it's all coming back, I mean, in other words, uh, I believe that -- this is my own opinion, I think that the time to come, white people is going to regret what they did to black people in the South to begin with. And uh, they're regretting it now to -- to the degree, because all the cities, they 01:02:00chased those people up here, and now they got black mayors in almost all the cities. See what I mean? And they're organizing them more and more. They're being organized to vote, and uh, registered to vote most of -- a lot of people that never voted before. And I think that the --- in time to come, they'll realize that that didn't do them no good, you know, because it backfired.

HARDY: Yeah.

GRIMES: When you -- when I -- when a whole -- when -- when black people take a city, like they come to the city and become the majority, uh, in numbers, then uh, something's got to happen. See, when -- if they had been treating people like people, they would have never been up here, they'd have been down there.

HARDY: Yeah. Can you tell me a little more about what it was like when you were a kid growing up in the South? You said you grew up in a small town, right?

GRIMES: Yeah.

HARDY: When -- when did uh, what -- you know, what was the story of your father? What did your father do?

GRIMES: My father was a hack man, he called it a hack driver. He'd drive -- drove a -- a hack. Go to stations, pick up people. It's like taxi cabs are now.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: You know? And -- but it was drawn by horses, see? Anyhow, he'd go to the station, and pick people up, and take people along the streets and what have you. He was the same as a cab driver is now, but he had horses. His carriage was drawn by horses like you see down in Chestnut Street.

HARDY: Right.

GRIMES: So that's uh, that's about all I can remember right now.

HARDY: OK.

[End of interview.]