Interview with Kate McAnulty, August 28, 2014

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Good morning. It's Thursday, August 28th, 2014. My name is Erica Bindner-Wooten, and I'm here doing an interview with Kate McAnulty for the Legacy of African American Judges in Kentucky. And the subject for this interview is Justice William "Bill" McAnulty. Kate, thank you so much for taking the time to meet with us today.

MCANULTY: Sure.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Um, we're going to start the interview with some easy questions. We're going to talk a little bit about you, and about your background. So, can you tell me when and where you were born?

MCANULTY: Sure. I was born in Louisville, Kentucky, um, on July 16th, 1980.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And can you tell me what your relationship is to Justice McAnulty?

MCANULTY: He's my dad.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about, um, growing up in Louisville, and what the community was like that you were raised in?

MCANULTY: Sure. Um, we--we grew up in the East End of Louisville, Barbourmeade, um, in a house that my mom is still in. Um, but, um--um, had, you 00:01:00know, at--at the time it was my mom and my dad, and my older brother, um, who's almost five years older than me. And, um, we usually had a dog--(laughs)--as well. But, um, but yeah, so for, for, uh, most of growing up, it was the four of us. My parents, uh, got divorced when I was almost twelve. And so, um, he moved out, you know, following that, but.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And did you go to school in the East End of Louisville?

MCANULTY: I did, yes. Went to Ballard High School, Kammerer Middle School, and, uh, Wilder Elementary, so all right--right there, can walk to them, um, from school to school.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And can you tell me what you're doing professionally now?

MCANULTY: Sure. I'm, um--at Kent State University, I serve as Director of Graduate Student Services, um, in the Central Graduate School. And, um, been up here for, um--just finished the fourth year, um, and this was after working and living in, in Louisville after, um, completing my bachelor's degree. So, went 00:02:00home after undergrad back to Louisville, and--and worked at U of L[University of Louisville], and earned a masters and Ph.D., um, while there.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great. All right, we're going to move into your father's life a little bit. And can you tell me where he was born and raised?

MCANULTY: Sure, Indianapolis, Indiana.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And did he have siblings that he was raised with?

MCANULTY: Yes. He's--uh, was the youngest of three, the only boy.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And did he ever talk about any of the values or lessons that his parents instilled in him when he was growing up?

MCANULTY: Um, he did. Um, my grandfather, his father, um, worked very hard, and um, both of his parents were educated, and, um--and, uh, my grandfather spent many years, um, with the--the post--postal service, post office.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Um-hm.

MCANULTY: Um, and, um--and so, um, you know, back then it was a lot of, you know, by foot deliveries, and so dealing with, um, you know, weather conditions 00:03:00and, and all of that. But, he worked very hard, as did my grandmother.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Did your grandmother work outside the home?

MCANULTY: She did.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Um-hm.

MCANULTY: She did. Um.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Were there any specific, um, traditions that you all had in your home, um, with your mother and father growing up?

MCANULTY: Um, well my dad loved to cook. And so, um, he, um--so he would always make big elaborate breakfasts, usually on the weekends because of school schedules and, and work. He worked obviously so hard, so, um, you know, I think while he was climbing his ranks and putting in his time, um, you know, professionally, um, probably the--the family suffered a little bit, um, just in terms of, you know, the--the time away. But, um, you know, a lot of good memories with, um, you know, grilling out, um, on the weekends, and also, um, elaborate, um, breakfasts in particular. But, uh, yeah.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: What was your favorite thing that he cooked?

MCANULTY: Um, ribs probably, ribs, derby pie, um--he used to make a, an awesome Beef Wellington, and, um, he was just--yeah, he was--he was quite a cook, but he was known for his ribs and derby pie, I would say, for sure. Chocolate mousse was good too. (laughs)

BINDNER-WOOTEN: (laughs)

MCANULTY: There were fewer, um, mousse desserts in the nineties and 2000s. I remember the--younger, so he went with a simpler pie. (both laugh) Later, later in life, but, uh--but wonderful cook.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Nice. I'm going to switch gears and focus back on you for just a moment. So we've talked a little bit about the, um--the--the values and the lessons that his parents instilled on him. Um, when you look at your own life, can you think of, or identify a value that--that he instilled in you?

MCANULTY: Certainly. I think, um, confidence probably, is, um--was one of 00:05:00the--the biggest. Um, you know, he always, um--you know, we always had, um, the expectation, high expectations of, of working hard, and, um, in school, and, um, you know, athletically and all of that. But, I think the confidence, um, you know, that is--is one thing that carries with--with me with work, and, um--and all else that I do. Um, I would say that's probably the biggest value, but, um--you know, um--when I say, like just mentioning the expectations, it--um, it--he never really, um, you know, pushed us in a certain direction, um, but it was just, you know, we were--it was assumed that we were going to--my brother and I were going to do well in school, and, um, treat people well, of course. And, um--and be kind, and to people, because it's--you know, he had interaction and positive experiences with people of so many different backgrounds. And so, 00:06:00and then us growing up in the East End, you know, just a different experience, so, um--but, but yeah, all of those things, really.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Thank you. Now we're going to focus a little bit back on your father. Um, I--in researching him, I realized that he had a degree in special education, and I'm just curious kind of what the change was from special education into the law, and if you--if you know.

MCANULTY: Sure. Um, apparently he, um, really felt that he could have--(clears throat)--excuse me--a greater impact with law. Um, he, um--I think it was actually to the point of, we did finish, the, the--um, the--the master's in special ed, but I think it was maybe during either a thesis or a final project, um, he was--it was kind of centered around law, and--and the legal side working with children, and I think that that--it was at that point where he really made the decision to, um--to focus on law entirely, and, um, so that he would 00:07:00hopefully have a better impact for the community he was serving.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Were he and your mom married when he went to law school, or was--

MCANULTY: Yes.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Okay.

MCANULTY: Oh, yes.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great. (both laugh)

MCANULTY: All through.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Do you have any stories about--did he ever talk about law school, or are you aware of, you know, people that he associated with in law school? Um, can you talk a little bit about that?

MCANULTY: Yeah, I remember. It's--it's fun to, you know, just, um--to meet people, you know, that--that have stories about my dad in law school, but--but folks of all different backgrounds, um, some friends, uh--or parents of some of our friends, you know, um, actually attended law school with my dad. But, um, he, um--he always, I think it was--you know, so some of the--the folks that I remember represent plenty of different backgrounds, Dick Baltzell (??), Laura Douglas, Richard Fitzgerald, Ken Corey, Pete Carom (??), some of his closest friends from law school, um, and, um--but he, he was student, um, president of 00:08:00the--um, of the student bar association, and so, um, you know, and I'm--I'm certain one of the few blacks even in law school, but then to be elected, I assume, by peers, um, and so it showed that he was obviously handling his academics, but also, um, keeping positive social relationships, which I think really continued with him throughout his time, um, throughout his career.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And he attended the University of Louisville also, right?

MCANULTY: Yes, he did.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: (laughs)

MCANULTY: Go Cards.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: (laughs) Completely. After leaving law school, he had a very successful career, pretty much at every level of the Kentucky judiciary. Um, did he ever talk about which level he liked more? Did he--um, did he like reviewing cases? Did he like being a sitting judge and hearing cases? Do you have any sense of that?

MCANULTY: Um, I--I think he enjoyed, um, probably each level, but, um, unfortunately, I--I recall that he most enjoyed, um, the highest court, but he 00:09:00was there the shortest amount of time, um, at the Supreme Court, but--but he definitely enjoyed his short time there, um, but not--not real big specifics on, um, you know, what I--you know, what he didn't like with--with a certain level. I think that really, um, I just remember pos--you know, positive, um, feedback, from--from all levels, really. And all very different, as you know

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure, absolutely, absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about, um, the fact that your father was the only African American that's ever sat on the Supreme Court bench in Kentucky. Um, what do you think that that meant to him?

MCANULTY: Um, I think it meant maybe--um, I think it meant a lot to him, but I think it--it meant maybe even more to the community, and to blacks, and I think 00:10:00he recognized that. Um, it, um--I don't recall, you know, while he was a circuit court judge, or district court judge, or you know, the lower levels that he--that he spoke of that being his ultimate goal. I don't, you know, recall those conversations. Um, but I feel like he knew he had to, um, in a way. And, uh, he was very qualified, of course, um--and you know, I don't know, um, just looking back, and especially like considering his final year of life, you know, that--that final election and everything took a--took a big toll out of him, and the pressure of--of all of it, so, you know, I appreciate his, uh, sacrifice for that, I suppose, as do, I'm sure, you know, many in the community.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Let's talk a little bit about that, because certainly running a campaign is not easy work for anyone.

MCANULTY: Yeah.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Um, and can you talk about it from your perspective of what it was like to have a parent that was involved numerous times in your life in judicial campaigns?

MCANULTY: Um-hm.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: What kind of toll did that take on the family?

MCANULTY: Sure. It, um--it was interesting. You know, growing up, very--he was very much a public figure, you know, so when I was young, it was cool. You know, dad's on TV, and, uh, dad's name's everywhere, and all--you know, that's--that's all good. Then it gets to, you start realizing how complicated some of this stuff is, and how much public exposure, you know, the negative side of--of that. And so, um, I believe I was in college; I'm fairly certain I was in college when he was running for appellate court judge. So that was a little bit different experience, not being in Louisville. I was, um, at Wittenburg University in Ohio, and, um--but I remember, um, you know, bringing campaign t-shirts up to my, you know, teammates on the field hockey, and they just 00:12:00thought it was the neatest thing. You know, so there even so removed, but it was something that I was still proud to share, of course. Um, the Supreme Court run, um, I was in Louisville, and whoof, I mean, it just--there were always--he always, you know, in his races, he never, um--never brought out, um, publicly a negative--never made, um, negative comments about, um, who he was running against. Um, so it was never, um--there were never really too messy of campaigns, but you just--it still, I mean, it was my dad, so you're sensitive to it; you're, you know, um, emotionally invested. Um, and then, from a physical standpoint, just, you know, making those contacts, delivering signs, you know, um, doing, um, campaigns, and--and stuff. And it's, you know, so, so that level of pressure, but also just being so proud, and it was--even in my older years, 00:13:00you know, it was still neat.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Absolutely. What do you think the key to his success was in judicial campaigns?

MCANULTY: Um, his past performance, his, um--his qualifications, and also his, um, history, because I think that, um, you know, that--that's the most important thing, the record he stood on, that many people of different backgrounds and occupations and everything could speak to, you know. Um, and I think that the fact that he was, you know, a positive person, um, you know in terms of not talking badly about his opponent, um, I think--you know, somewhat similar to our current President of the United States, the delicate line he had to walk in 00:14:00terms of, um, the pos--the, um--you know, his energy, the--um, where he invested his energy most, I suppose. And, um--but, uh, thinking about the people, and different, uh, initiatives and--and stuff that, um, he had to prioritize, but also be somewhat careful in the sense of recognizing that, um, you know, just the--the diversity of the community he was serving. So, and all that that means.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Sure, absolutely. You talked a little bit about, you know, during campaigns, you know, hearing things and being, you know, protective and defensive of your father. Did you all read the paper or watch the news, or did you try to shy away from that, because you didn't--

MCANULTY: Yeah, sure. (laughs) Well the news--you know, coverage was always pos--I mean, he was just so well-liked and loved, and--you know, so, um--but I can recall, and it was luckily, I think for us, um, before social media really, 00:15:00for the most part, um, just kind of kicking in, I think he may have had a Facebook page, that--well, I don't even know if he did, for the Supreme Court. If he did, he didn't create it, or man--manage it, um. But I can recall after he passed, um--and it was just one, and so it's--it's funny to put stuff into perspective, but reading the Courier Journal online and the comme--you know, the obit, probably hundreds, or so of positive comments. But there was one, and one negative, and it just set me off. And it just--you know, when you think, you know--so, um, so really, that's the only, um, negative experience I had, or feeling like, you know, I probably need to turn this off, or not, you know, read anymore, but, um--but no, that was--you know. But no, with--that was, you know--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Certainly from doing these other interviews, your father is 00:16:00definitely a pillar of our community, and certainly well-respected, um, from every level of community, so, uh, you're exactly right in that. Um, let's talk a little bit about things that he did off the bench. What kind of community activities was he involved in, um, off the bench?

MCANULTY: Sure, sure. Well I think first and foremost he was a huge sports fan. Our whole family is, and um, so from watching, and--to playing. And, uh, no secret that--that, um, a huge Cardinal fan, at that. And, um, so he--you know, loved watching, um, all things U of L, football and basketball. Um, also enjoyed playing, um, softball. There was, um, a team of, um--I remember them, the Boomers, I think they're still around, but a team of, I think, mostly retired, uh, judges and lawyers, and just hilarious--(laughs)--watching them play softball. But, um, have good memories of that. Um, so he--you know, he, he stayed pretty active until, um--and loved golf. Um, but yeah, big, big 00:17:00sports guy. Loved to cook, as I mentioned. Um, he was very involved too in the community which I think was important in his role. So, um, part--in particular, um, Metro United Way, um, served, you know, um, on their board for many years, and a lot of other, um, you know, community organizations and stuff. So, um, he was--he was very involved even outside of the professional obligations.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: And I just, from our research, that juvenile justice was something that he was very passionate about.

MCANULTY: Yes.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Can you talk a little bit about that? Um--

MCANULTY: Yeah, that was, um, in my--when I was a juvenile, for the most part. (laughs) Um, you know, just age-wise. So, but I do know of his strong passion of, um, you know, working with children, working with, um, you know, special needs children. That's--that also plays back to his, um, you know, his master's degree in special ed. Um, and so, um--and that work earlier you mentioned, you 00:18:00know, what--what level of bench, maybe he didn't enjoy as much, or, or whatever. And I definitely don't think--I would say he didn't enjoy it, but I do think that it was probably the most difficult, um, you know, time working with--and Kentucky has a large--unfortunately, a large, um, number of child abuse cases, and--and so I, um--you know, I just--I do recall, um, you know, stories of that. So, whether, um, the history in Kentucky is why he--you know, is what drew him to study that, or you know, being in that position, then exposed him to, um, how much was out there, in terms of abuse for children, but--but, um, but no, he was definitely passionate about--about those issues.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great. Anyone who knows your father says that he had an amazing sense of humor, that he was very witty. (laughs)

MCANULTY: Yes.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Um, and so I can't leave today without some memories of that, 00:19:00some recollections of things that he said, or things that he did, if you don't mind sharing. (laughs)

MCANULTY: Gosh, no sure, if I can thi--I mean, just so much. Um, he was so damn funny.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: (laughs)

MCANULTY: (sighs) What--what would be appropriate to share? (both laugh) Um, I'm just teasing. Um, golly.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: I'll tell you, my--my favorite that I've heard so far was when--

MCANULTY: Okay.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --uh, apparently during a court hearing, um a juror fell asleep, and the attorney asked your father to wake the juror up, and he says, "You put him to sleep, you wake him up." (laughs)

MCANULTY: Oh, that's funny, there you go. That's--that's a good one. That's a good one. Well here's one--

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Was he comical at home as well?

MCANULTY: Oh yeah, oh yeah, definitely. Here's one that--that you'd appreciate, and somewhat ties into this project, actually too. So, he was one of a few of course, uh, blacks--professional blacks, ju--you know, or not "professional blacks," but, um, black judges of course. And so, and was pulled 00:20:00to tons of events, all the time, you know, because he was also a great speaker, great keynote speaker and all that. So, um, and so one, one thing is he always used to say, um, Black History Month, like he had an event every night, and he'd say, you know, it's my mo-- "It's Black History Month, it's my month, I've got--you know, I'm stretched thin; they want me everywhere," so we'd joke about that. Another story, um, is that when, um, they were at a--my parents were at a black tie event, and, um, so he's in a tux, and, and um, somebody comes--he's probably, you know, they're probably the only blacks there. And, uh, this guy comes up to him and--and asks him to get him a drink, like assumes that he works, um, like as kitchen--part of the kitchen staff. And so my dad in his good humor just loved that he, you know, that this--you know, who, my dad would call him an idiot, you know, um--you know, asked him to--to get him a drink. And so, my dad, and only something my dad would do, goes into the kitchen, puts on some type of apron, and gets like a platter--uh, a platter, and brings this 00:21:00guy a drink on the platter. Like here you go, you know, and just--and so, let him figure out later, like, who my dad was. You know, for all I know, my dad like gave the keynote at that event or something, that would just be icing on the cake. But, uh--but that's the type of, like, he's like, you know, no I'm not going to cuss you out, or do--you know, I'm going to just--I'll bring you a drink, sure. (both laugh) Bring you a drink, so. So who knows who that person was, and--and how that ended--you know. But, um--but, he had friends of all different backgrounds, Democrats, Republicans, black, white, et cetera, so that's, um, I think to just what made him him.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Absolutely, absolutely.

MCANULTY: But--but stories for days. Most wouldn't be appropriate for the--(both laugh) So, but there are a couple for you.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Thank you, thank you, I appreciate that. He was obviously very passionate about the law. Did he ever encourage you or your brother to pursue a 00:22:00legal career?

MCANULTY: I think he discouraged probably, to be honest. Um, I remember talking, um--I remember telling him that I was going to be a--that I was going to go for my Ph.D. This is when I was finishing my master's, and I said, "You know, you're going to have to call me doctor," and he said, "You don't call me doctor." And I was like, "You're not a--" he's like, "What do you think J.D." you know, so, um, but--so he, I think, was very proud. He unfortunately didn't, uh, you know, see me finish my Ph.D., but I was close, and he knew I would, of course. Um, but no, he, um--he, he did not push us, um, you know, towards law, or--I mean, the expectation was there for us to do well, but it wasn't--you know, this--this was also our path, our inevitable path, sure.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Growing up, did you and your brother ever go to the courthouse? Were you around him in his professional life?

MCANULTY: Yes, indeed. There--oh, we, um--we liked--we have great memories. We could still--I could still smell the Hall of Justice, the old carpet, and 00:23:00the--when you could smoke in the chambers. I mean, it's just--it's crazy to--to think back, but in the eighties, we have, um--and I have not gotten them out in a while, I should. But my brother, Patrick, and I, used to so enjoy going down there. We would race up and down the hallway, um, and we would also--the--the coolest thing would be to, um, to actually go in his chambers, and, um, I remember one time I was playing the judge. I was sitting in my dad's chair, and Pat's out, you know, being an attorney or something, and we're just messing around, and, um--and we're making fun of my dad, and um, we didn't know he could see us, and hear us. (laughs) He's back in his chamber, and so, he pops up on the little camera, or TV monitor, and, um so, but yeah, I--we--we went down to the courthouse quite a bit. It was always really cool, and--and then, also, growing up, um, we used to take field trips there, you know, so my class, you know, elementary school, we would all go down, and I always thought that was the 00:24:00coolest thing to be able to show off, you know, my dad's stuff.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: You talked a little bit about that at the college level, with taking the campaign shirts and stuff, but--

MCANULTY: Um-hm.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: --but being back in school and taking field trips and stuff, I mean, what did that feel like? What was like with--your interactions with your peers? You know?

MCANULTY: Right. Um, just--I, I liked it. (laughs) I liked it. Um, they were impressed, but I think it was just--it was just a neat thing. I don't know, it's just--it's wild to think back now. You know, honestly. But, it was just--it was normal to me, you know, um, but, uh--but yeah, it's--yeah.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: That's good. I--I'm not sure that my daughter always thinks I'm the cool parent.

MCANULTY: (laughs) Yeah.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: But I'm glad to hear that--that you thought your dad was cool.

MCANULTY: (laughs) Yeah.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: We're going to switch gears a little bit, and--and start to wrap up the interview, um, and--and just want to think about, um, what do you think your dad would have wanted his legacy to be? And kind of, what are the 00:25:00kind of things that you think that he would want people to remember?

MCANULTY: I think that he would want, um--I think that he would want young blacks to see him as somebody who did make it, and that, um--this, I mean, you know, that, um--if you work hard, you treat people well, and you know, I'm--I'm sure there was some--some good luck along the way as well, but, um--that you can reach, you know, your goals, and, and dreams, and you can impact, um--your, your impact can be significant. Um, you know, it's--we think about, um--if he would have, you know, still been here, how much greater the legacy could have been, especially just being on the Supreme Court, and even thinking about, you know, 00:26:00possibilities greater than that. Um, perhaps the national level, but, um--but no, I mean, it's--to me, I just try to--I think about him all the time, of course. And, um, you know, I'm just--I'm so proud of what he was able to accomplish. I think about like, you know, he was a judge at twenty-seven years old. Twenty-seven years old. He passed away at fifty-nine years old. He accomplished so much in that period of time. And, it's just a shame, you know, that he wasn't here longer to do more. But, um--and I hope to get back to Kentucky to, you know, at some point, um, to, you know, continue not his legal work, um, although we'll, we'll see, who knows. Um, but just to--to be a, a 00:27:00presence, I just think it's very important for, um, his efforts and the--um, and all to be remembered, because it's just, how quickly we forget, you know, and how hard he worked to, you know, to just help the community.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Um, and I just have one final question for you, and it's really just kind of a catch-all, is there anything that we haven't covered that we haven't talked about that you would like to be included in this interview?

MCANULTY: Yes. I would like, um, to acknowledge my two, um--my younger siblings, um, uh--William McAnulty III, and Shannon McAnulty, um, they--products of his second marriage. Um, Will is a freshman--or just, excuse me, just 00:28:00finished his freshman year of college. Um, and Shannon is much younger, um, in middle school. So, um--but, um, he was--Shannon was very young when he passed away, and, um--but, I love them, and as did he, so I definitely want to acknowledge them in this.

BINDNER-WOOTEN: Great. And they're very fortunate to have you to help them carry on the memories that they may or may not have. Thank you very much for the interview today; I greatly appreciate it.

MCANULTY: You're welcome.

[End of interview.]