Interview with Marty Solomon, August 17, 2015

FERNHEIMER: Um, so, to get us started today, I'm going to say, uh, today is August 17th--

SOLOMON: It's August 17th--

FERNHEIMER: --2015.

SOLOMON: --2015.

FERNHEIMER: Thank you for joining us in the studio today. My name is Janice Fernheimer. I'm associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies and the director of Jewish studies here. And it's great honor and pleasure to have the opportunity to interview--

SOLOMON: Marty Solomon. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And let me, uh--

SOLOMON: Retired professor from the University of Kentucky. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So, let--I'm going to begin with some sort of questions that I probably already know the answers to, but--so that we have the--the--here for the record. Uh, what was your name at birth?

SOLOMON: My name--Martin Berthold (??) Solomon, Jr.

FERNHEIMER: And where and when were you born?

SOLOMON: Chicago, Illinois, eighth of August, 1933.

FERNHEIMER: And, um, uh, what--and what were your parents' names and occupations?

SOLOMON: Dad was a--Martin Solomon, Sr. Dad was an attorney, uh, in Chicago, where I was born. Uh, Mother was a housewife. And, uh, we lived on the South Side of Chicago. And when, uh--

FERNHEIMER: What was your mom's name?

SOLOMON: Beatrice.

FERNHEIMER: Beatrice Solomon?

SOLOMON: Beatrice Newfeld Solomon.

FERNHEIMER: How do you spell Newfeld?

SOLOMON: Newfeld was her maiden name.

FERNHEIMER: N-E-W-F-E-L-D?

SOLOMON: Uh-huh.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

SOLOMON: Um, Dad was a lawyer, and in 1936--well, '34, '35 was the Depression, Great Depression, and Dad was a--out of work, actually. There weren't--there wasn't a lot of work for attorneys in those days. Uh, and it--my uncle, who 00:02:00lived next door, was a salesman, and he was out of work. So, my dad and my uncle heard that, uh, well, during the Depression, during the--during the Depression and during Prohibition, liquor was, uh, uh, hard to--hard to get. Most of the distilleries were shut down, and Dad and, uh, my uncle, in 1936, heard that there was money to be made in Kentucky in the--in the, uh, distillery business.

FERNHEIMER: What was your uncle's name?

SOLOMON: David. David Karp.

FERNHEIMER: David Karp. K or C?

SOLOMON: K. K-A-R-P. Dave W. Karp. And so, Dave, uh, and Dad came to Kentucky to look around, and they found this distillery was, uh, owned by a fellah named King Lear--(laughs)--believe it or not. And King, uh, was an older 00:03:00fellah, wanted to retire. So, he cut a deal with my dad and uncle to run the distillery for him. And every year they ran it, they would--they would earn, um, a percentage of the ownership. And over a period of years, they owned the distillery. And, uh, during that time, uh, Prohibition was ended. But there still weren't many distilleries, so anybody that could make liquor could make a lot of money. Was--you--you just--you could make it in your bathtub and make money. But they--they did very well for a while. And then, after--uh, and during the war, it was even more, uh--during Second World War, the, uh, government required the distilleries to--to convert, uh, I think fifty percent of their capacity to make grain alcohol for the Army, for medical purposes. So, 00:04:00liquor was even in tighter supply. And, uh, they can--sell all they could make. But after the war--now, Seagram's started advertising Three Feathers and Four Roses and just captured the whole market, and the little guys were shut out. So, they, uh, got out of distillery business. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Where was the distillery that they were--

SOLOMON: It was in Loretto, Kentucky.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: Dad would--Dad and, uh--would--Dad was the, uh--ran the distillery, and Dave was the salesman. He'd go out on the road and sell, uh, to, uh, liquor stores.

FERNHEIMER: And was Dave your father's brother or your mother's--

SOLOMON: Dave was my--uh, my--my--Dad's sister, uh, was Dave's wife. So, Dave was my--

FERNHEIMER: Brother-in-law?

SOLOMON: My--my--what? My uncle.

FERNHEIMER: Your uncle.

SOLOMON: Yeah, he was my uncle.

FERNHEIMER: Related by marriage, though.

SOLOMON: By marriage, yeah. Julie--Julie Solomon was my dad's sister. And 00:05:00Julie Solomon got married to Dave Karp, so she became Julie Karp. And, uh, that's the way that was.

FERNHEIMER: How long were--so, about what years were they in the distilling business? Uh, from about '30--he's down to (??)--

SOLOMON: Thirty-six.

FERNHEIMER: --'36 to--

SOLOMON: About '47, something like that.

FERNHEIMER: And do you remember the names of the--the spirits they made or the--

SOLOMON: They made--yeah, their brand was called Old Blair.

FERNHEIMER: Old Blair.

SOLOMON: B-L-A-I-R. But they also made wine. I don't remember the name of the wine, but I'd go down on summers--in the summertime, and I'd work in the bottling plant. And they had this long conveyor where, uh, a machine would fill bottles with either wine or liquor and be put on a conveyor belt. And, uh, the 00:06:00women would be on both sides of this conveyor belt, and they would--they'd--someone would put the front label on, someone would put the back label on. Then they'd put acelecyle (??) on top and cap it. And then, at the end, they'd put them in cases, marked--and close up the case. It was--lot of fun. But it was very hot. No air conditioning. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I imagine. (laughter) Were there--do you remember, were there any Jewish women on the bottling line?

SOLOMON: No, no, these were--these were country women, of--out in the sticks, you know? They had nothing else. There's no industry in that area except at this distillery.

FERNHEIMER: And do you remember any of the women who were there? Any -----------(??)

SOLOMON: No, they were older women. I was a kid.

FERNHEIMER: So, how old were you when you were working and about how old were they?

SOLOMON: Oh, I was probably, uh--well, let's see, I was, uh--1940, I was seven years old. -----------(??) So, I was eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve years 00:07:00old, in that area. These were forty, fifty year old women. Country women who--I never knew any of them, actually. I just worked beside them. But only for, like, a month or a month and a half at a time during the summer. But, uh, I was lucky enough to--to live next door to two Jewish guys, twins, who became my best friends in, uh, growing up. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: -----------(??)

SOLOMON: --two different guys. One was very, very--uh, smart kid who was, uh, interested in learning and--and, uh, literature and things like that. And the other one was interested in sports. But anyway, they became my best friends. And because of them, in--

FERNHEIMER: And what were their names?

SOLOMON: In my teenage--Robert and Melvin Kessler. Robert went on to become a, 00:08:00uh, an orthopedic surgeon. And Melvin actually died of, uh, ALS [amyotrophic lateral sclerosis] when he was very young.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

SOLOMON: Melvin never wanted to go to college. He just wanted to, uh, he wanted to play bridge. (laughs) Bridge was his thing. As a matter of fact, I played bridge with him only once. And, uh, I was not as--he was very, very good. And I was a--no, (??) I was a novice, and we--we were playing bridge in this big room, um, duplicate bridge. Very, very high-test, high--high--a very tense--when you play duplicate bridge, it's very tense. People are--they're very competitive. Everybody wants to have the high card, high board. And I'll never forget--I made a bad bid once. And, uh, when the cards came down, he looked at my hand and he stood up and he said, "God damn you!" (laughs) And I 00:09:00slumped down in my chair and I said to myself I'll never do this again. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: How old were you when you were playing bridge with Melvin?

SOLOMON: About (??) fifteen, maybe, yeah. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And where was that? Is that here?

SOLOMON: In Louisville. Louisville, Kentucky.

FERNHEIMER: In Louisville.

SOLOMON: But, uh, the greatest thing--one of the great things about my childhood was, uh, there were two Jewish fraternities in Louisville. Teen--high school fraternities. One was called AZA [Aleph Zadik Aleph] and one was--was called, um--that was the other fraternity. And mine was called Pi Tau Pi.

FERNHEIMER: Pi Tau Pi.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Pi Tau Pi.

SOLOMON: Pi Tau--we probably had about thirty, forty kids who were in the fraternity, and we'd--we'd, uh--we had a basketball team. And, uh, but AZA had a basketball team, so we'd play basketball against each other at the--at the--in those days, Louisville had a, uh, YMHA. Young Men's Hebrew Association, with a 00:10:00building and a gym, a basketball court, the whole thing. And, uh, we had a great rivalry, there and they (??)--we had dances, we had get-togethers. Uh, it was a--it was wonderful, uh, it was--it was something that, uh, kids in Lexington just don't have, you know? They--teenagers--Jewish teenagers in Lexington, uh, they get lost in the shuffle. They--

FERNHEIMER: You mean today or then?

SOLOMON: Today, today, yeah. That's one of my--I'd like to see us do something better with teenage kids, 'cause they--you know, they--today, they get bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, and then you never see 'em again. And, uh, that wasn't the case in--in Louisville when I was a kid. We had these--the Jewish fraternities, and they kept us together. And, uh, it--it, uh, kinda reinforced our Judaism.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm. Were you born in Louisville?

SOLOMON: In Chicago.

FERNHEIMER: You were born in Chicago. How old were you when you moved to Louisville?

SOLOMON: Uh, six.

FERNHEIMER: Six. And--

SOLOMON: Oh, wait a minute, '36--three.

FERNHEIMER: Three. So, you moved when you were--

SOLOMON: We moved in '3--no, no, I'm sorry, six. We moved in '39. I'm sorry. I got it backward. I was six. (laughs) I was right the first time.

FERNHEIMER: So, your dad had moved down here a little bit earlier to get started? Or he just--

SOLOMON: --mm--

FERNHEIMER: --came down here to start the business in '36?

SOLOMON: Well, he made a couple of trips, but then we moved--actually moved stock, lock, and barrel in, uh, in--then (??) '39.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

SOLOMON: And, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And you moved to Louisville?

SOLOMON: To Louisville, uh-huh. Next door to the Kesslers, just by accident. Uh, but that was a great thing for me, to meet the Kesslers. They were good, wonderful friends. And--

FERNHEIMER: Do you have brothers and sisters?

SOLOMON: Hmm?

FERNHEIMER: Sorry for interrupting you. Do you have siblings? Brothers and sisters?

SOLOMON: I have two brothers. I had two brothers. Uh, one brother, Michael, lives in Denver. He's a--

FERNHEIMER: -----------(??)

SOLOMON: --uh, retired, uh, a psychiatric social worker. He, uh, did mostly 00:12:00marriage counseling of rich people. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And was he older than you or younger than you?

SOLOMON: He's--he's the middle--middle child. I'm the oldest. Michael is the middle son.

FERNHEIMER: How many years between you?

SOLOMON: And he's, uh, two and a half--uh, three years younger than I am.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

SOLOMON: And then, Bernie was the youngest. Bernie was two years younger than Michael. Bernie became a--the, uh, director of the Jewish community center in, uh, Salt Lake City.

FERNHEIMER: Huh.

SOLOMON: Which had a relatively small Jew--400 families. But he, uh--they had a wonderful community center there. A single temple, as a matter of fact, with--they had a--a conservative, uh--well, anyway, that was after a while. But when I was a teenager, uh, most of the kids in our fraternity would go to the 00:13:00University of Kentucky when they went to college. And so--and they became, uh, ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau]--they--they entered (??)--they joined the ZBT fraternity. So, I knew these guys. They were my high school friends. They were maybe a year ahead of me. So, when the time came for me to go to college, it was just naturally natural that I would go to the University of Kentucky, because they were--my friends were there.

FERNHEIMER: Can you--do you recall the names of some of the--the young men that were involved in the fraternity with you and--

SOLOMON: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots of them. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell--list them for me so--

SOLOMON: Well, Henry Abraham was one of my closest friends in high school, and he--he went to the University of Kentucky. Uh, Irv--uh, Irv--uh, Irv. (laughs) Irv.

FERNHEIMER: It'll come back to you.

SOLOMON: It'll come back to me. Uh, of course, there--and I had already known, 00:14:00uh, Earl Levy. Now, Earl lived in Lexington, but I lived in Louisville, but we knew each other.

FERNHEIMER: How did you know each other? From--

SOLOMON: I dated a girl from Lexington when I was in high school in Louisville.

FERNHEIMER: How did you meet her?

SOLOMON: Uh, I don't know--(laughter)--tell you the truth. Some kind of a Louisville-Lexington dance or something like that, maybe.

FERNHEIMER: For the Jewish community or just in general?

SOLOMON: Yeah, Jewish--Jewish kind of a--maybe the fraternity put that on, maybe the--uh--

FERNHEIMER: What was her name?

SOLOMON: Uh, Connie Goldberg. And, uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, you met Earl through Connie?

SOLOMON: Probably. That I don't remember, how I met Connie. Uh, not Connie. Not Connie Goldberg. Um, Connie was her sister.

FERNHEIMER: (laughter) Connie Goldberg's sister.

SOLOMON: Connie Goldberg's sister, yeah. Uh, boy, that really was a--(laughs)

FERNHEIMER: I didn't mean to throw you. It'll come back.

SOLOMON: Don't tell her that. (laughs) That would be embarrassing. (laughs) Ah, anyway, so, uh, ah, the fraternity would have high school kids come to the campus on weekends.

FERNHEIMER: So, ZBT fraternity did? (??)

SOLOMON: ZBT fraternity here in the University of Kentucky.

FERNHEIMER: And what year was this? This was--

SOLOMON: Uh, 1950.

FERNHEIMER: So, you were still in high school, and you were coming--

SOLOMON: I was in high school, and they invited--they invited high school--Jewish high school kids from Louisville to come up and spend the weekend at the fraternity house.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: Uh, Friday night, Saturday night, and then--so, uh, I came up on one weekend and got to know a lot of the guys. And that reinforced my interest in the University of Kentucky as well as ZBT fraternity. But when I came to 00:16:00college, they--they had a rule that, um, you had to spend the first, uh, semester in the dorms.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

SOLOMON: You couldn't go into a fraternity directly. So, I moved into (??) Bowman Hall and, uh, had two--two great roommates. Uh, Tom Reynolds went on to become a physician. And, uh, the other--other roommate, he became an--a physician, also. Carl Rankin. Carl became a physician, the--both of them became physicians. Anyway, uh, but I wanted to join the fraternity. The University of Kentucky had a rule, though, that you couldn't join a fraternity unless you had a--I think a C+ average. Uh, so, that was really--uh, uh, I 00:17:00wasn't really a--a good student in high school. I mean, I was--I'd do enough to get by. And, uh, sometimes not quite enough to get by. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Where did you go to high school? In Louisville?

SOLOMON: In Louisville Male High School.

FERNHEIMER: How do you spell that?

SOLOMON: M-A-L-E.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

SOLOMON: And, uh, it's interesting, in--in Louisville, uh, until--well, now, I was, uh, a teenager. All the schools were, uh, segregated as far as gender.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, okay.

SOLOMON: They had a girls' high school and boys' high schools. And then they had a black high school downtown.

FERNHEIMER: And was there, like, a women's--or the female high school that was sort of paired with the male high school or--

SOLOMON: No, they were just all--

FERNHEIMER: For social functions and things?

SOLOMON: --totally independent.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

SOLOMON: But, uh--now, why was I telling you that? Anyway--

FERNHEIMER: They were segregated by gender and by race.

SOLOMON: Right, right. There were all--there were no--all the schools were--were segregated. No blacks were ever in a--my high school, or even my 00:18:00junior high school, uh--

FERNHEIMER: And where did you go to junior high school? I'm sorry, I was supposed to have asked these already.

SOLOMON: Junior high school's called Highland Junior High School.

FERNHEIMER: Okay.

SOLOMON: Uh, and it was really a disadvantage because, you know, none of us ever met a black person in our whole school careers. Uh, and, uh, it--it--I'll tell you a little bit later why--why that was important. But anyway, uh, in high school, we'd--as I say, we'd come up to the fraternity house--so, I had to make a--a C+--uh, I know where I was going--C+ average to get in. I was never--really good student, and I was particularly not interested in math. But, uh, I had this one course, and--when I was a freshman, a five hour algebra course. And I decided if I could make an A in that course, I could make almost nothing in the other ones and still be able to join the fraternity. (laughter) 00:19:00So, I--(laughs)--so, I went to my professor, this little German fellah. Uh, wonderful, wonderful man. Can't remember his name, but he was wonderful. And, uh, I went to him and--and--early in the course, and I said--I said, "You know, I'm--uh, want to get into a fraternity, and I have to make some pretty good grades. What do I have to do to get an A in this course?" And he said, "Vell, um, vell, you should--in the back of the textbook, there are about five hundred problems." He said, "Work every one of them." And so, I did. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: All five hundred?

SOLOMON: I went home every night, I'd work some more of those problems. And that was one of the greatest things that happened to me, because I really got excited about mathematics. (laughs) I was never excited about mathematics. But it would turn out to be fun. It was like a--a puzzle! Just like working 00:20:00puzzles. And--and when you got to the end of the puzzle, it was great that you solved it. And, uh, so it was a lot of fun. I made an A in the course, I got into the fraternity. (laughs) And, uh, course, that set me onto my, uh, interest in math, which is a great blessing for me. And, uh, so, then I got--we, uh, uh, had a pledge class in--in the ZBT fraternity. Earl Levy, uh, let's see, uh, Jack Steinberg was in our class. Uh, Gil Levich (??) from Louisville. Jack was from Louisville, Jack Steinberg. Earl Levy, course, from Lexington. Um, gosh, and a guy named Jimmy Winniker (??) was our pledge master. 00:21:00Jimmy was a--a football player who went into the Army and played football for the Arm--well, they, you know, the Army had this group of athletes that would actually play sports, basketball and football, just to entertain the troops. And Jimmy was a football--big football player. Big guy.

FERNHEIMER: Jewish guy?

SOLOMON: Huh? Jewish guy. And Jimmy, uh, got out of the Air--Army and, uh, went--actually went to school at Washington University for a couple of years, played football, and got hurt, I think. Then he came to the University of Kentucky, where he--his father and mother owned a, uh, shoe store.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, which--

SOLOMON: Called Winniker's Shoe Store, which was very, very successful. Everybody bought their shoes from the Winnikers.

FERNHEIMER: Where was the shoe store located?

SOLOMON: On--on Main Street. You know, Main Street in Lexington--I don't know if you have heard about this, but it--there were fifteen Jewish stores on Main 00:22:00Street. There were clothing stores, shoe stores, department stores. Uh, -----------(??) as I say, there might have been fifteen of 'em. The--uh, and most of the big--the--a lot of the Jewish families were into retailing. Uh, the Meyers, the--the Wildes, the--the, uh, Haymens, (??) the, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Haymen or Hyman? (??) SOLOMON: Hymans.

FERNHEIMER: Hyman.

SOLOMON: Hymans. The, uh, Blumfields. (??) Uh, there was a Ben Snyder store down there with a--Jewish owned. Um, there was a--a Tots and Teens. That was--the Hymans (??) owned, the Tots and Teens. So, anyway, there were all these stores, but the Winnikers had this immense store of--shoe store, and--a women's shoe store. And, uh, made--made a lot of money in that business. 00:23:00Anyway, Jimmy was our pledge master, and so he--we--we--he would meet with us and tell us what to do, you know? He'd give us assignments. And one day, he gave us an assignment to, um, to get the pledge--the sorority pin of Madge Barnett. Now, Madge Barnett was the Kentuckian Queen that year. Most--well, a most gorgeous, gorgeous young lady. And so, we had to go to the--her--she was a Tri-Delta. A Tri-Delt. So, we trudged over to the Tri-Delt house one night. And we're all standing around the front door, and who's--it--you know, there were--as (??)--I think six of us, seven of us.

FERNHEIMER: Do you remember who was there?

SOLOMON: Well, Earl and Jack Steinberg, Gil Levich--I'm trying to remember the other three, four in our pledge class and I--I don't know why I'm blocking on them, because I know 'em so well. Anyway, the question was who's going 00:24:00to--who's going to actually try to get the pin? (laughter)

FERNHEIMER: Did you have a strategy mapped out?

SOLOMON: No. But they decided--I guess they voted me to do the deed, do the dirty deed. So, I knocked on the door, and who came to the door? Was Madge. And I almost melted, you know? It was sort of, like--(babbles) (laughs)--what am I gonna say, what am I gonna do? So I just told her that we were--uh, we were--we were pledges of fraternity, and we were tasked to get her sorority pin. She stood there, she took it off and handed it to me. She said, "Just bring it back." And I thought that was so nice! (laughs) So, we did that. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So, there wasn't any issue between--or was there any issue between--did they know--did she know that the fraternity you were part of was 00:25:00the Jewish fraternity? Or was there, uh--

SOLOMON: I don't know.

FERNHEIMER: I'm not asking a very good question, here. Can you tell me a little bit about the relations between ZBT as a Jewish fraternity and--and these other houses in--

SOLOMON: Well, all the other fraternities--all the other fraternities, uh--I shouldn't say all of them. Most of them, apparently, required a person to be, uh, Christian. And they had to take a Christian oath to become a member. So, even a couple of the guys--oh, uh, another one of our--our, uh, pledges was, uh, Ronny Tiller. Now, Ronny was a guy who played football for one year and then he got hurt. But Ronny was--he--when he came to campus, he started to pledge another fraternity. And, uh, it got to the point where they asked him to pledge to either Jesus or Christianity or something. And, of course, he wouldn't do 00:26:00that. And he found out that there was a Jewish fraternity. When we came to campus in those days, they'd give us a--a religious preference card, and you could fill out your--your religion. And so, the, um, student--student services would give each fraternity, uh, uh, information about incoming freshmen, if they wanted to rush them. And, of course, we got all these cards for Jewish kids, and we'd contact them and tell them that there was a Jewish fraternity. Most of them--I--I--I don't know about most. A lot of them would then come over and want to become members. But there wasn't any--uh, I don't think there was any animosity between, uh, the Jewish fraternity and other fraternities. I think they just--we just didn't have much to do with each other.

FERNHEIMER: So, when you did, like--when you planned dances or other events, did you invite them or did they invite you or--

SOLOMON: No. No, the only thing that we--every year, there'd be a, uh, parade, 00:27:00and each fraternity would have a float in the parade. But we'd have our float, they'd have their float. Sororities would have their floats. There was a Jewish sorority, as well, Phi Sigma Sigma. Uh, they had about six--six or seven girls.

FERNHEIMER: Total or just in--

SOLOMON: Total.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

SOLOMON: Not--not many. (laughs) We had about--at one point, we probably had about thirty people. We had a--a fraternity house on State Street, 113 State Street. It was an old house that had been kinda converted. There was a--a hall--well, it was--originally, it had one bathroom upstairs and one bedroom and bathroom downstairs. And, uh, somebody in the--earlier on had put some, uh, latrines in a hallway. So, we had a--some toilets and sinks in a hallway. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: How many people lived in the fraternity house?

SOLOMON: About twenty. Now, yeah, we'd have--like, in my--in my room--I had different rooms during the years. But in my room, we had four people. Had two double length--two double deck beds, and most of the rooms had two double deck beds. So, there'd be, uh, four, eight, sixteen. And then, in the roof, there was a--oh, attic room that had five people. Twenty-one--about--maybe twenty-five people lived in the--there was a president's room. So, about twenty-five people. And then, in the basement, there was this huge shower that had about ten showerheads. So, you shower down there.

FERNHEIMER: And did you live in the fraternity house the whole time you were in college except that first semester?

SOLOMON: Yeah, the whole time. Yeah, it was wonderful. The--it was a--

FERNHEIMER: Tell--

SOLOMON: --real bonding of people. And, uh, uh, we'd go--we'd have dinner 00:29:00there, uh, every night except, uh, Sunday. And most of us would go down to Walgreen's--there was a drugstore, Walgreen's, on Main Street. And every Sunday, they'd have all the fish you could eat for, like, a dollar and fifty or something like that. And so, that was the Sunday dinner. But it--during the week, we'd have dinner every night, you know? Dining room. And, uh, not only the people that lived there but the people--the townies, people lived in town would also come. Sandy Beterman (??) was a townie. Uh, and Earl, of course. Uh, Jimmy Winniker was a townie. Uh, Alan Blumfield was a townie. Uh, Jack Miller was a townie. Uh, those are the ones I can remember.

FERNHEIMER: Who were the gentlemen you lived with over the years in the house, do you -----------(??)

SOLOMON: Different people each year. We'd move around. One year, I lived in 00:30:00the attic with five--four other guys. One year, I lived in a room with three other guys. And one room I--actually, I think one year I might've been in--in a room with only two of us. Teddy Bregg (??)--oh, that's another one. Teddy was a--in our pledge class. And Stuart Yussman. Now, Stuart was the--

FERNHEIMER: He was from Louisville, right?

SOLOMON: Louisville. He was the Clark Gable of the whole group. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: What do you mean by that?

SOLOMON: A women's man. (laughter) All the women just loved Stuart. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: Did he date mostly Jewish women? Non-Jewish women? All women? Any and all?

SOLOMON: Most of the guys didn't date--there weren't that many Jewish women to date. Uh, and, you know, the--half of 'em nobody wanted to date. (laughs) For whatever reason. So, most people dated non-Jewish girls. Uh, but we'd have a 00:31:00party every Saturday night. That was another great thing about the fraternity, for me. I was a very shy person. Uh, and, um, they had a rule in our fraternity house that you could either bring a date to the party--every Saturday night, we'd have a party in the basement. And you could either bring a date to the party or you'd have to wait on other people. (laughter) So, it was a great incentive to get a date. But I'll never forget sitting on the phone--you know, I'd pick up the phone to call somebody, and I'd get--they'd answer the phone, I'd hang up. (laughter) I was so shy! But that--in--uh, incentive drove me to get a date--(laughs)--almost every Saturday night with somebody. It just had to be somebody, 'cause I didn't want to wait on other people. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Um, what do you mean by waiting on other people? What did you--what did they serve at--

SOLOMON: --in--

FERNHEIMER: --at these parties? What--was it--

SOLOMON: Oh, you'd--you'd, uh, serve, uh--you'd pick up, uh, trash. You'd, 00:32:00uh--I don't remember what we did. Just wait on 'em. But you had to bring 'em, uh, ice or bring 'em glasses or something like that, I suppose.

FERNHEIMER: Was there punch? Were there cookie--what did you--what was on--

SOLOMON: Potato chips, maybe. It was in the basement. We had a big room, in the party room in the basement of the fraternity house. And, uh, that's where we'd have our parties.

FERNHEIMER: What--what were they--was there music? Describe the party for me.

SOLOMON: People just bring the liquor and, uh, beer. And we'd have music--they have a--a--I guess some kind of a--I guess -----------(??) I don't know if--the radio or phonograph. We'd have music and, uh, dancing. People would dance.

FERNHEIMER: What were some of the dances?

SOLOMON: Uh, slow dances. They were--didn't--I don't think we had any fast dances. (laughter) Mostly hugging. (laughter) You know, the--uh, a substitute for hugging, or excuse for hugging. Uh, but anyway, that--that pushed me to--to 00:33:00be a little bit more outgoing than I had been, because I'd--now I could pick up a phone and call--call a girl and get a date. Uh, but then--then a really--one important thing happened to me in the fraternity. When I became a--a junior--every year, we'd elect a new president in the fraternity. And, uh, when I was a junior, somebody said, "Well, um, uh, what about Marty for president?" And somebody came to me and said, "How 'bout running for president?" And I said, "Oh, God, I couldn't do that. I'm--I'm not a leader. I'm just--oh, I--I wouldn't know what to do in the"--and they convinced me to run for president, and I did. And it changed my life.

FERNHEIMER: Tell me about that.

SOLOMON: Because I realized I could do something. (laughs) You know? I wasn't 00:34:00this little shy guy that--that couldn't do anything. I could be president of a fraternity. And it was pretty--pretty awesome! I would go to inter--interf-fraternity council meetings. I'd be the president. I had a little gavel that ran (??)--that--I could put on my fraternity pin. People on--in other fraternities would contact me periodically for information or something and talk to me as the president. I had a private room in the fraternity house. I would hold meetings.

FERNHEIMER: What did you all discuss at your fraternity meetings?

SOLOMON: Uh, everything under the sun. You know, the--the meal menu, what we -----------(??) was--are we getting too much of this or too much of that? We had a--a--we hired--we employed a, uh, a house mother. She lived in the house. The--all the fraternities had to have a house mother to try to keep them from being, you know, too audacious, uh--(laughter)--uh, and she kinda helped--kept 00:35:00the--the level of, uh, audacity down. But, um--

FERNHEIMER: Did she prepare meals? Or did she just--

SOLOMON: She managed the kitchen. And so, she would, uh, order things, uh, actually over the phone. And there was a company that would come and deliver food. And she would have--she'd manage a cook. We had a--there was a cook, part-time cook. Uh, but we would, uh--everything--you know, there'd be some complaint. One guy would have a complaint against another guy. Uh, we'd have all kinds of, uh, altercations. Sometimes--we had one guy that had a serious problem with drinking and, uh, drugs, I guess. And, uh, when we went home for, uh, Christmas vacation, everybody would go home except him. He just--he didn't have any place to go. His parents were gone or something. So, he stayed in the 00:36:00house, and when we all came back from Christmas break, all our books were gone. Well, turns out he'd--he had taken the books and sold them to Kennedy Bookstore to get some money. And, uh, this was a big deal that we talked about, you know? And--

FERNHEIMER: What--what was--what--what did you all decide to do about this?

SOLOMON: You know, we didn't do anything. We went to Kennedy's, Kennedy's gave us the books back.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

SOLOMON: Uh, Mr. Kennedy was a--just a wonderful man. He'd--uh, it was interesting about Kennedy. Oh, he's still alive and I see him periodically. But when--when I was in, uh, undergraduate, uh, these--the university had a bookstore right on campus. And Kennedy had this bookstore across from--where it is now. And, uh, the university bookstore had an advantage over Kennedy's, because it didn't have to pay sales taxes. It was part of the university.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

SOLOMON: But Kennedy had to pay sales tax, so he had a--economic disadvantage. And yet, the university bookstore was going broke and Kennedy was making a fortune. So, one day I went over to see Joe and I said--we got to know each other a little bit. I said, "Joe, how is it that you, uh, you're making money and the bookstore's going broke?" He said, "Well," he said, "it's very simple." He said, "To the people that work at the university bookstore, the owner is a faceless thing, an organization. A university. A government." He said, "The people that work for me work for a human being. I'm Joe Kennedy." And he said, "They're like my kids." He said, "If they have problems, they come to me and talk about 'em. We talk about 'em. Sometimes I'll loan them money, and sometimes I'll get 'em out of jail." So, he said, "It's a different world." 00:38:00And, uh, so he was such a really nice guy, he gave us the books back. I don't think he even asked for the money, 'cause we didn't have it. He'd already spent the money. But, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Was he allowed to stay in the house after this?

SOLOMON: We--we--we had a big talk with him and he--he said that he was under the influence of drugs and the--he was really a bad guy. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Who was this? Or--

SOLOMON: His name was--his name was Ned Fogler. He was a con man. Real con man.

FERNHEIMER: Where--was he from Lexington or--

SOLOMON: No, he was--I think he was from New York. But, uh, he put on a good show and he--he--it--he exhibited a lot of remorse. And so, I think everybody said okay, we'll just let it go. So, he didn't do anything after that that was outrageous. But anyway, so we'd have things to talk about in fraternity 00:39:00meetings. Uh, and we'd--or we would have to decide, you know, who's going to--there'd be a person--there was always a kind of the kitchen manager, would help the house mother plan meals, you know? What--what do the boys like, you know? Do they like fried chicken, do they like--would--

FERNHEIMER: Your (??)--the kitchen manager was one of the fraternity brothers themselves? The kitchen manager, was it one of the fraternity brothers? Or was some--

SOLOMON: Yeah, one of the fraternity brothers. So, you'd have--and then we had committees--so, committees would report on things like the next parade, who's going to--what kind of a--a float are we going to have? How are we going to fund it? Uh, or is there--is there going to be a group going to Ohio State for the weekend? And we'll put a group together to go up and visit the ZBT chapter at Ohio State or something. So, we always had things to talk about. Now, you remember interview Gene Dubau, (??) but Gene was president before I was.

FERNHEIMER: Wait, he--what year were you president?

SOLOMON: Fifty-four, fifty--

FERNHEIMER: And he was the year right before you, in '53, right?

SOLOMON: No, I'm sorry. He was two--two presidents before me. Uh, Stuart Yussman was president in '54. I was president in '55. But anyway, we had four of us--were really thick. Earl Levy, myself, Stuart Yussman, and Teddy Bregg. The four of us were like four horsemen. And we--at the end of a fraternity meeting, we'd always have good and welfare. And good and welfare meant each person could speak their piece. You'd go 'round the room, anything you had to say--if you wanted to say anything--you didn't have to say anything, but you could complain about something, you could congratulate somebody about something, or you could just let off steam or whatever you wanted to do. And usually, we'd go around pretty fast, you know? It's, "Uh, Joe, what's your--" "I pass." "I 00:41:00pass." "I pass." Well, they'd get--the four of us would sit together, and not a--we would never pass. We'd always have something to say. Well, Gene was president at the time. And Gene was from New York. And it--course, the New York Yankees was the prominent baseball team at the time, when he was a kid. And, uh, there were four Yankee players in the line-up. Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, uh, I can't remember the other two. But anyway, there were four of 'em, they call them, uh, the--not the Four Horsemen, but the, uh, Murderer's Row. Murderer's Row, that's what they called these four baseball players, and--but anyway, because none of us would ever pass--we'd always have something to say, Gene labeled us Murderer's Row. (laughter) So, the four of us became Murderer's Row.

FERNHEIMER: There were--if I recall, there's some images of Murderer's Row in--

SOLOMON: Right, we--

FERNHEIMER: --The Kentuckian--

SOLOMON: --had a--

FERNHEIMER: --with you all dressed up.

SOLOMON: We had a bear skin--we'd use--always play--the University of Tennessee would be our, uh, rivals in football. And the fraternity, uh, at Tennessee and the fraternity at Kentucky would always challenge each other for a bearskin. Actually, it was a piece of plastic, I think. But it would have--you'd have something on it. It would say, you know, "1955 Kentucky--Kentucky twenty-six, Tennessee twenty-two" or what--and so, each year, one of us would have to buy a bearskin for the other--or they'd buy one for us. And we bought one for the -----------(??) Murderer's Row. Uh, we got one from them, I guess. Anyway, I--somehow it happened.

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about the regular activities of the fraternity? So, it sounds like you had a regular dance on Saturday nights.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And you had regular meetings to discuss--

SOLOMON: Regular meetings--

FERNHEIMER: --business.

SOLOMON: --every week.

FERNHEIMER: Uh--

SOLOMON: And (??) I think they were on Wednesday nights.

FERNHEIMER: Wednesday nights.

SOLOMON: I think it's--yeah. (??)

FERNHEIMER: You had elections every year.

SOLOMON: Every year.

FERNHEIMER: What--

SOLOMON: We had a--

FERNHEIMER: --were there other--

SOLOMON: --dinner every night.

FERNHEIMER: Were there other officers besides president that were elected?

SOLOMON: Yeah, there was president, vice-president, uh, there was a treasurer and secretary.

FERNHEIMER: And did people tend to go through the ranks? Like, someone would start as secretary and then move their way up? Or was it willy-nilly?

SOLOMON: I'm not sure that there was a vice-president. Not--there might not have been. I think there was a president, a secretary, and a--

FERNHEIMER: Treasurer?

SOLOMON: Treasurer. Treasurer.

FERNHEIMER: And the pledge master, was that an elected role?

SOLOMON: I think that was one that's--(laughs)--they had to find somebody that would volunteer. It wasn't a--it wasn't a fun job. You know, it was a lot of work to work with the pledges and teach them the things that they needed to know about the fraternity. Had to teach 'em the Greek lang--the Greek alphabet. 00:44:00(laughs) That's one thing you had to learn. You had to learn the Greek alphabet.

FERNHEIMER: The Greek alphabet. And what else did they have to learn about the--

SOLOMON: Uh, the history of the fraternity. Some--some aspects of history. Uh, some aspects of the university, I guess. I'm not--it wasn't a very rigorous kind of a curriculum--(laughs)--I'll say that.

FERNHEIMER: Was there a quiz?

SOLOMON: Huh? No, no.

FERNHEIMER: Was--and you'd--you--

SOLOMON: There was Hell Night. Hell Night was a time when they put us through all kinds of embarrassing situations. It was a very, uh--uh, hazing. It was a--you know, was just--there wasn't--it wasn't violent in a physical sense. It was violent in a psychological sense, you know? They would strip you down to--and be naked and have to parade around and, uh, things like that. But it 00:45:00was a--it's just a rite of passage, you know? Everybody had to do it.

FERNHEIMER: So, aside from doing things like requesting the pin of the Kentucky Queen, like you--

SOLOMON: The what?

FERNHEIMER: You reported the story of--of having to request the pin from the Kentucky Queen. I was--

SOLOMON: Well, that was just--I--that was just a--periodically, the pledge master would have the pledges do something. Uh, you know, just on a whim. Whatever he wanted to do. He might say you'd have to go out in the woods and find a piece of cedar and bring it back. Or, you know, whatever he decided to do. Just--just to keep the pledges in line and make them realize they were pledges. (laughs) They weren't quite real people yet, you know? It's sort of like the Marines. They break you down then build you back up. (laughter) So, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Um, so, okay, pledge activities, the dances. Other activities, uh, 00:46:00that you recall that were regularly part of the fraternity life?

SOLOMON: No, just mostly hanging out together, drinking beer on Friday. Friday, uh, afternoons, we'd typically go to a place called The Paddock and have a beer. The Paddock was a bar on the corner of, uh, Euclid and, um, Rose (??) Street--now where there's that little strip mall.

FERNHEIMER: And what kind of beer was popular then?

SOLOMON: Uh, I'm not sure what other people drank, but I--I was--uh, I really liked a thing called Champale.

FERNHEIMER: Champale? And--

SOLOMON: Champale. I don't think they make it anymore. But it was a kind of a combination of champagne and beer. And it really tasted good until, one night, I drank more than I should have. I got back home, in the fraternity house. I don't know how I got there, but--and I'd lie--I laid down, and the room started 00:47:00spinning. And it started spinning. And I got sick as a dog. I mean, I was--I don't know if I've ever been that sick again. But I never wanted to see Champale again. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Best not.

SOLOMON: So, I switched to--I guess I switched to some kind of beer and--(laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So, regular Friday nights there. Um, in a couple of the other interviews, I heard, uh--and I know Harriet Rose (??) was there a little bit earlier, about ten years, almost, before you at UK. But she talked about, um, I--a debating society, uh, that came out of, uh, the Hillel organization. Do you know anything about that? She thought that some of the fraternity--that the Hillel and the Jewish fraternity, there was a lot of overlap between membership. Is that something that you recall?

SOLOMON: You know, I don't know. Gene was, I think, a--involved in Hillel. I never got involved in Hillel for some reason. I don't know why. I--uh--

FERNHEIMER: Were most of the fraternity brothers--the--so, you weren't, but Gene was.

SOLOMON: I don't recall many of 'em--I don't recall people being in Hillel, really. I--in fact, I found out about Gene's involvement in Hillel only within the last year.

FERNHEIMER: Really?

SOLOMON: I didn't even know about it while we were--while we were, uh, you know, uh, undergraduates, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Did you know of Hillel? Did you know that it existed?

SOLOMON: I don't think I even knew of Hillel. I don't even think I knew it existed, what it was. I--I certainly don't recall ever going to a meeting, such a meeting. I--I would've, I think, if I'd--I'd known about it, but--

FERNHEIMER: Were there--

SOLOMON: --I don't think it was well, uh, advertised for some--I don't know, uh--

FERNHEIMER: Were there other student organizations that you were involved with in addition to the fraternity?

SOLOMON: No, just, uh, just the fraternity. It was a really thick group. A 00:49:00lot of neat guys, uh, bonded together, went places together. We'd--sometimes, we'd get in a car and go to--as I say, the place like Ohio State and stay there--weekend. They'd put us up. And sometimes people would come to our fraternity and--from other places. Uh, and then, once in a while, had to do some--I'd study, and I'd (??)--(laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And what was your major while you were at UK?

SOLOMON: I was in the business school. A business major. Business, uh, uh, in the business school--business and economics, you know, that kind of stuff. When I was an undergraduate. And then, uh, uh, so when I graduated, went in--I was in the ROTC [Reserve Officers' Training Corps], that--the university had a--a course called ROTC. Air Force ROTC. And you could join in your junior year. 00:50:00It was--it was actually classes that you took. It was--you got credit, uh, college credit for ROTC. But the nice thing is, they'd pay you, I think, fifty dollars a month. Something like that. So, I--I wanted the fifty dollars a month to pay for my beer. (laughs) So, I joined the ROTC, but the nice thing about it was you could go into the--then Air Force as an officer when you graduated. And I wanted to go into the Air Force and fly airplanes. I wanted to be a pilot. And they said, "Great, that's what we need. We need more pilots." So, I'm getting ready to--my junior year, um--now, my junior year, they sent us to, um, boot camp down in Harlingen, Texas, the hottest place in the world. (laughs) You don't want to go to Harlingen, Texas. But, uh, that was about a four week--uh, living in hell. I mean, it was--they put you through 00:51:00paces, you had to do calisthenics every morning, you had to run every afternoon, you had to keep your, uh, room spotless--spotless. Uh, we did get to go out on the shooting range and--and, uh, learn how to use weapons. But anyway, uh, I bit my fingernails as a--as a kid--as a--as a--undergraduate, I bit my fingernails. Well, the Air Force had a--a rule that if you bit your fingernails, you couldn't, uh, go into pilot training and (??)--

FERNHEIMER: How--why was that?

SOLOMON: Well, it was a--it was a--their--symptom of a person that was not steady enough or reliable enough to become a pilot. But we had a Jewish guy who was the head of the ROTC, Air Force ROTC program at the University of Kentucky named Captain Stern. And Captain Stern took a liking to me and realized I had 00:52:00this problem with my nails. And so, he called my mother in Louisville--(laughs)--and talked to my mother about my biting my nails. So, she came up here, and the two of them met with me to talk about how do I stop biting my nails? And they tried several things. My mother finally coated my nails with something. Was terrible tasting stuff, and that got me off--stopped--allowed me to stop biting my nails. So, I was ready to go in the Air Force to become a pilot. I was so excited. And when I graduated, I went to, um, this, uh, kind of a clearinghouse down in Texas. And I was getting ready to get orders to go to a pilot training--and they called me in one day and they said, "We've got some bad news." I said, "What's that?" And this was 00:53:00back, by the way--in 1955, they said they were going to deemphasize pilot training--pilot, uh--uh, piloting--piloted aircraft and emphasize drones.

FERNHEIMER: In 1955?

SOLOMON: Was 1955, that early. And they had closed half of their pilot training programs. And one of them that they closed was mine. So, they said I--I guess I wasn't able to go into pilot training. So, I--I went into aircraft maintenance, which was fun. But, uh, I never got to be a pilot. (laughs) -----------(??) so I went--that--now, that was an interesting, uh, part of my life, but it didn't have anything to do with college. But when I went into the--the aircraft maintenance school, uh, they bunked me with a guy, a black guy 00:54:00from the--Washington. Bill Dixon.

FERNHEIMER: Washington, D.C.?

SOLOMON: Washington, D.C. The guy--Bill had--had first year of medical school, then he went into the Air Force. He became--he wanted to become a pilot, also, but--and he washed out of pilot training for some reason.

FERNHEIMER: And this was 1955.

SOLOMON: Fifty-five. And, uh, anyway, uh, they had this program where I had to--they had--be two people bunked together in a--what they call bachelor's officer's quarters. And I happened to be bunked with--or assigned to the same BOQ as Bill Dixon. And it was the first black guy I ever got to really know, 'cause I never met a black guy in school. Never met a black guy in college. And we became bosom buddies. I mean, as close a--friends as you could imagine. We'd go to places together, we would, uh, drink together. Uh, and they had a rule--

FERNHEIMER: And this was in Texas?

SOLOMON: In--no, this was--now, this was--we went--the school we went to was in Illinois, in Rantoul, Illinois. Chanute Air Force Base.

FERNHEIMER: And, okay, can I stop here for--

SOLOMON: --yeah--

FERNHEIMER: --a second to ask a couple questions?

SOLOMON: Sure.

FERNHEIMER: When you guys went out to socialize, were you treated differently because you were with him and he was a person of color, at the time?

SOLOMON: Well, we--most of what we did was on the base.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

SOLOMON: You know, the base was color blind. But, uh, after, uh, after we were in the BO--BA--well, (??) bachelor's officer's quarters for the first four months--uh, we were required to be there. But after that, we could move out into town if we wanted to. And he was married and had a baby, which--couldn't bring to the base for the first four months. But he wanted them to bring his wife and baby to live with them. And so, he wanted to go out and get a--an 00:56:00apartment. And we were so close, I said, "Well, let's go get apartments next door to each other." And so, we decided that that's what we were going to do. So, he would, uh--he would--now, Bill--Bill, if you got on the phone with Bill, you wouldn't know he was black, uh, 'cause he was from Washington, D.C. and he kinda had a--a neutral sounding voice. So, he'd call for an apartment and they'd say, "Sure, come on out." But when he'd get there, they'd see he was black and they would say, "Oh, you know, we just rented that apartment. Sorry about that." And that happened to him, like, three times. And so, it was really bothering me, because, uh, here was my good friend and they--he couldn't get an apartment. We'd--we wanted to get apartments together, and he wanted to bring his baby and his wife, and this was very disconcerting to both of us. So, we went to the--there was assistant base commander who was--black guy. And we 00:57:00went to see him, and he was astounded. He didn't realize--uh, Rantoul, Illinois's a little country, Illinois town. Probably no more than--

FERNHEIMER: How do you spell it?

SOLOMON: Uh, R-A-N-T-O-U-L. Rantoul, Illinois. About a hundred miles south of Chicago. Probably about three thousand people that lived there. I mean, really teeny town, and totally dependent on the Air Force Base, because there were probably twenty thousand people on the base. (laughs) Uh, all the--drugstore, the grocery stores, they all depended on the--they were all dependent on the base. Well, anyway, the--the general, uh, lived on the base. They had nice, big--big houses for the generals, and he didn't realize that there was this problem. So, he said, "Well, I'm going to fix that." So, he issued an order that said the town of Rantoul is off limits. No military people can enter the 00:58:00town until Dixon gets an apartment. (laughs) Well, that afternoon, the phones started ringing. And he had three offers for an apartment. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

SOLOMON: And so, he--the two of us got apartments right next door to each other. He brought his wife and his baby, and the two of us, we'd party to--we'd eat lunch, we had dinner to--he'd eat at my house, I'd eat at his house. His wife would fix dinner for us. And we just became really good friends. And it, you know, was an experience that I think most white people never have. A really close black friend. It's very unusual. I mean, how would that happen? How do you have a really close black friend--and--and I was just lucky enough to, uh, accidentally get bunked with him in the--in the Air Force. Anyway, he--he--he went back to medical school, got a--his medical degree, got on the drugs and 00:59:00killed himself.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

SOLOMON: Sad story, but--

FERNHEIMER: How--sorry, go on.

SOLOMON: No, that's--

FERNHEIMER: That is very sad.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: How did you--how would you describe your relationship with Bill Dixon impacting the way that you thought about yourself and your own identity? Did--

SOLOMON: Well, I think it--it made me--I learned--learned a lot about the black community from him, and the--how tough it is to live in the black community. I--I would go to Washington, uh, and--after we were out of the Air Force, and I was working. I'd go to conventions in Washington periodically and, uh, we'd go to dinner together. But he'd--one night he wanted me to come to his house for dinner and I--he said, "But now don't drive to my house." I said, "Why's that?" He said, "Well, it's very dangerous for white people." So, he said, 01:00:00"I'll--you--you drive to this place and I'll drive there and I'll pick you up and I'll bring you back to my house, because you--you must not drive here." It was a really--you know, there's a lot of animosity about white--black--black community has--I--I guess you'd call it a lot of hatred for white people, and a lot of white people have a lot of hatred for black people. And it's--continues today, you know? But it was really bad in Washington, D.C. Especially Washington.

FERNHEIMER: And this was in the late '50s?

SOLOMON: But anyway, it made me--I don't know, it probably changed my whole life about how I feel about black people. I never had an opportunity to know one, really know a person, deeply, and share stories and family, I--stories and history and heartaches and things like that with another human being. It's a--I thought it was a--just a great accidental experience for me.

FERNHEIMER: And did he know you were Jewish?

SOLOMON: Oh, yeah, sure, sure, why, (??) he was--he was, uh, more of an atheist, I guess, than anything else. He wasn't interested in religion. And I wasn't that interested in Judaism, either, at the time. I didn't--I don't think I ever went to temple when I was in the Air Force. We'd--we--end up in the officer's quarters drinking beer more than--(laughs)--more--more of the time. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: And what about--I'm going to take us back a little bit--when you were a student at the fraternity, uh, UK, uh, how did that impact the way you think about your identity or your Jewish identity?

SOLOMON: Uh, well, because I was, uh, part of Jewish--community, the fraternity, that was my--that was my world. That was my Jewish world. And, uh, most--I don't think most of us went to temple, except may high--high holy holidays. Uh, we didn't go to temple on Friday nights. Uh, probably be, you 01:02:00know, going out to parties, uh, or something like that more of the time than temple. I--I think I went to temple on Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, and that was about it.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So, was that--you said--you mentioned that football games took you off campus sometimes, to other universities. And it sounds like the holidays brought you off campus to the local synagogue or temple--

SOLOMON: --uh-huh--

FERNHEIMER: --at the time. Do you have any impressions of Jewish life in Lexington at the time you were a university student?

SOLOMON: I--well--

FERNHEIMER: Or can you describe your impressions of--

SOLOMON: I got to know the parents of a lot of these kids. The Winnikers' parents--uh, especially Earl Levy's parents would--I'd be over at their house, at Earl's house half the time. I mean, they'd--his mother and father would--kind of took me in as a--another kid, another--another child in their family, almost. And the Blumfields, uh, were, uh, I knew them. So, some of the 01:03:00parents were very, uh, inviting to, uh, young--young Jewish kids. So, we had a--that kind of a relationship, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Well, did you--were there any experiences of anti-Semitism while you were at the university?

SOLOMON: You know, I didn't experience that. Uh, I thought about that not too long ago. Why--why wasn't there anti-Semitism in--in--but there wasn't at the University of Kentucky. I didn't experience it. If--there was -----------(??) the KAs (??) were known to be very, very bigoted, especially about blacks. Course, there weren't any blacks in--in undergraduate college when--when I was--as--undergraduate. We had a graduate student in the--grad--a graduate--black graduate student, I think. But black students weren't--weren't allowed to enroll at the University of Kentucky until after I graduated, as an 01:04:00undergraduate. Uh, but I never experienced any anti-Semitism. Uh, it might have been there and it might have been, uh, covert. But it--I never experienced it. I don't know why. You'd think that there would be some.

FERNHEIMER: So, not in the university, not in the--in the military? Did you have any experience--

SOLOMON: No, not in the military, either.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: I was very lucky, uh--I, uh--(laughs)--I'm--in fact, in my whole life, I've almost never experienced anti-Semitism, personally. Yeah, I've heard people say things once in a while. You know, "Don't Jew me down," or--uh, I had an--a discussion once with a person who was, uh--uh, I--I mean, you know, I was saying, "Well, most people want more money. That's really what most people are after." They said, "Oh, no, no, no, no. Most people want to do the right 01:05:00thing." I said, "I don't know what rock you're living under." And they said, "Well, that's just because you're--Jewish background. You don't understand." (laughs) I said, "What? (laughs) What do you mean by that?" (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: When was that? That was later in life? Earlier in life?

SOLOMON: That was about a year ago.

FERNHEIMER: Oh, wow.

SOLOMON: Yeah, yeah. I thought that was almost comical.

FERNHEIMER: And that was here in town?

SOLOMON: Uh, no, that was actually, uh, in another city. But, uh, I--I was on vacation and talking to a person. But anyway, uh, that--I actually almost never experienced anti-Semitism. I was very fortunate, I guess, in that regard--

FERNHEIMER: Uh --

SOLOMON: --uh--

FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me--um, you told me a little bit about your experiences in the military and your involvement in the Jewish fraternity in college was pretty strong. Um, what's your involvement in the Jewish community like now? Or -----------(??)

SOLOMON: Now?

FERNHEIMER: --as an adult after college?

SOLOMON: Well, after college, I, uh--after (??)--worked at several different 01:06:00universities and retired in, uh, 1997. Uh, when I left, I--well, when I--had an interesting experience. When I came back to college, at the University of Kentucky in 1958--I came back to graduate school. In the--well, when I graduated, went into the Air Force, stayed in the Air Force for a couple years. Got out of the Air Force, went back to, uh--got married, uh, went back to Louisville to work with my dad. Always wanted to be in business with my dad. My dad had a little, uh, unfinished furniture store, and he would make furniture for people. They'd come in and say, "I want a bookcase that's this wide, that tall, this many shelves." Uh, and so he would do that. So, I--I went into business with him, but we didn't have enough money for me to get a salary. 01:07:00(laughs) So, I lived with--we lived--my wife and my baby and my, uh, self, we lived with my mother and dad, which was a disaster. And I worked with him in the business for about a year and--uh, maybe two--and realized that wasn't going to work. So, I decided to go back to college and get a degree and become an accountant and get--become a CPA [certified public accountant] and go out and make money. And so, uh, I--when I got back to college, I--uh, well, I had some--so (??)--experiences, so many wonderful experience--and the first thing that happened was they--and, uh, go to graduate school, to--in order to go to graduate school, I had to get an adviser. So, they--they assigned me an adviser, a guy named, uh, Dr. Kuhlson. (??) And what was his first name? Anyway, Kuhlson was a strange fellow. He would--he'd look strange and he'd look 01:08:00at you in a strange way, you know? But he was--we were working on my schedules and, uh, I told him what courses I wanted to take, and he looked at that and he said, "Mmm, well, you sure you want to take these courses?" I said, "Well, I--I have to take this course and that course to be"--said, "They're prerequisites to what I want to take next year, which is prerequisites to one other thing." (??) "Oh," he said, "Well," he said, "I might not see you next year." I said, "Why's that?" He said, "Well, because you'll probably flunk out." I said, "Why is that?" He said, "These are some of the hardest courses we've got, and you're taking three of them in one semester. I don't think that's a good idea." I said, "Well--have to do it." But it scared the heck out of me. And, of course, in high school, I just kind of breezed along and didn't pay much attention, 01:09:00did--did as little as I had to do, and I realized I had to work hard. And I did. And that saved me, because--(laughter)--every night, I'd go home and really study. And it got me through. But I had, uh, two friends that, uh, are--uh, befriended in--in graduate school when I was going--getting an MBA [master's degree in business administration]. I was going to get my MBA--took about a year and a half to get the MBA, and then I was going to go out and get a job as an accountant. But they were going on to get Ph.D.s [Doctor of Philosophy]. And so, we became very, very close friends. We'd study together, we would go out and drink together. Uh, let's see, one of them was married--both of them were married, and I--and I was married. All three of us were married, yeah. And, uh, we--

FERNHEIMER: And was your wife and family here in town when you--

SOLOMON: Yeah. Well, we--when I moved--we moved from Louisville--and when I went to graduate school, of course, they came with me. So, we became three 01:10:00families that were close together, and after a while I decided, well, they're going to go get Ph.D.s, why don't I--I'm going to stay with 'em. (laughter) So, three of us went through the Vh.D.--Ph.D. program together.

FERNHEIMER: Who were the friends?

SOLOMON: Dale Osburn (??) was one of them. Dale went on--he got a Ph.D. in economics--well, we all got Ph.D.s in economics. Uh, got Ph.D. in economics and went on to work for the Federal Reserve. And then, he went on to become the chairman of the economics department at the University of Texas in Dallas. And then Jim Gibson--now, neither of these guys were Jewish. Jim Gibson was my other compatriot. And Jim, uh, went off and--and be--worked at the--as a professor at the University of Texas, Arlington. I think he's--worked there 01:11:00until he retired. And then he came back here, and we--we see each other now and then. Actually, I see both of them periodically. Dale--Dale lives in Texas, and he comes here about once a year. And Jim lives in Danville, and I see him a couple times a year. But anyway, we were very close. And, uh, the--uh, when I was a--started teaching, uh, another--you know, sometimes things that look like disasters turn out to be real opportunities. And, uh, one of the biggest changes--uh, turning points in my life came when I was a--a--teaching. When I first came back to graduate school, uh, I had to support myself somehow, so I--I got a job teaching--uh, well, first of--I found a job as a--a research associate 01:12:00to this professor who was doing, uh, research on coal mines in eastern Kentucky.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: And, uh, my job was to do statistical analysis for him. He would bring in data and I would do some, uh, multiple correlations, multiple regressions on the data so he could predict things like income and these sorts of things. Uh, but to do one regression, we had these, uh, accounting machines called Monroe accounting machines. And to do one regression would take about an hour, maybe an hour, two hours. But then, when you did that one regression, you had to do it a second time, because there were so many steps, you wanted to see if you made any mistakes. And if you had the same--got the same results the second time as you got the first time. And then, if they were different, you 01:13:00had to do it a third time to see which of the two was correct. But it took hours, hours to do one of these things. And so, I heard that there was a computer in the university, over in McVey Hall. So, I went over there one day and I--there was this guy with--happened to be the director. And I got to--I--into conversation with him, and I said, uh, "Can--can a computer do statistical--multiple regressions?" "Oh," he said, "that's what they're made--made for. That--that's--that's their shtick, you know? That's what they can do." I said, "Really?" He said, "Yeah." He said--I said, "How--can you show me how to do that?" He said, "Well, yeah." He said, "The, uh, you take these little cards and you punch up your data and do that--punch up your old (??) data," and he showed me how to do that. And he said, "When you get finished, come and see me." So, it took me about, oh, an hour to punch up all 01:14:00the data. And I took it back to him and he said -----------(??) deck of cards to--I don't know if you ever seen a punched card, but they're--they're about that long--they're like a card--cardstock, like a credit card thick, and about that big. And you punch little holes in 'em, and the holes are numbers or letters. So, he took this deck of cards and he put it in this computer reader, pressed a button. The cards went ch-ch-ch-ch, went through the thing. And within ten seconds, the results started printing. And I thought my God, that is a miracle. That is what I've been looking for! So, I wanted to learn everything I could about computers.

FERNHEIMER: What year was this?

SOLOMON: Huh?

FERNHEIMER: What year was this that you brought the--

SOLOMON: This was about 1960, '61, maybe. And, uh, so every afternoon, uh, 01:15:00when I had some time, I'd go over there to learn more about computers. He'd give me a book once in a while and I'd take it home and read it and then come back. I got to know him pretty well and, uh, he taught me a lot. But I was teaching statistics courses--uh, but--oh, I--when I finished my job on--with the statistician--as a--I got a job teaching, uh, undergraduates statistics courses. And I taught--first semester, I taught one course, the next semester I taught two. I finished my course work, and so I ended up teaching four sections of basic statistics. And I was getting two hundred and fifty dollars a month. And it wasn't quite enough to make ends meet with a wife and a baby and a car and utilities and insurance and--so, one day, I went to the dean and I said, uh, "Dean," I said, "Uh, you know, I'm having a hard time getting by on two hundred 01:16:00and fifty dollars a month. Is there any way I could get a--maybe a little raise of some kind?" He said, "Marty," he said, um, he said, "I got bad news and bad news." He said, "The first bad news is I just got a budget cut, and I can't possibly give you any more money." But he said, "The other bad news is, you know, every summer, you've been teaching a course for us. And this summer, they cut out my budget for summer school, so I won't have a job for you this summer." And I thought oh my God, my world's coming to an end. What am I gonna do? I--you know, I--I--so, I walked out of his office, distraught, just dismayed, and who comes across the campus but John Hamlin, the guy from the computing center? And he said, "How you doing?" I said, "Well," I said, "okay." He said, "Let--let me ask you." He said, "What are you going to be doing this summer? What are you going to be doing this summer?" I said, "I don't know." 01:17:00He said, "Well," he said, "let me tell you, I just got a grant, and I need somebody to work over at the computing center this summer." I said, "I'm your man! I'm your man!" (laughs) He said, "But there's only one problem." I said, "What's that?" He said, "Well, it's only a half-time job." I said, "Oh." He said, "It only pays two hundred and fifty dollars a month." (laughter) I thought, mmm! (laughs) Wait a minute! A half-time job that pays two hundred and fifty dollars a month, and I've been working full time for two hundred and fifty dollars a month. I'm gonna go with you! (laughs) So, I went over there and worked that summer. The next year, I worked for him half time. And the next year, I worked for him full time. And, uh, that was my start in computing. Uh, changed my whole life, 'cause, you know, I started out to be an accountant, then I got into computers--computing. And the--then, unfortunately, a--a couple 01:18:00years later, the director got killed in a--airplane accident, and they made me director of the computing center, which, again, changed my whole life. It just was a--a wonderful thing. And a--a--you know, instead of being a--one faculty member in a department of fifty, I was one director in a department of, you know, one. (laughs) And so, uh, so that, uh, that turned out to be a great experience for me. But it was, you know, at--when I walked out of the dean's office, I was so distraught, I was--thought that my world was coming to an end, and it turned out it was a--just an--opening a door to a marvelous new opportunity.

FERNHEIMER: And how many years did you direct the computing center? From--which years?

SOLOMON: Till '83.

FERNHEIMER: So, from--and when did you start?

SOLOMON: Uh, about 19--probably about '65, '68, something like that. I--I started as a programmer, and then I became assistant director, and then, when 01:19:00the director got killed, I became the director. Uh, but then that opened the door for me, and they had an opening at Ohio State as the director of computing there, which was a--a nice bump in pay and a--course, a bigger university. So, I took that job and, uh, this funny thing, when I went to the--Ohio State, uh, the president at Ohio State had a--uh, had a routine in which he'd interview each new employee personally. Every new employee. And when the--my turn to--to, uh, be interviewed, I went to his office and sat down, and we had a nice chat. And somehow, it's--during the conversation, he--he said, "I'm going to be here for about seven years." And I thought that's strange. I said, "Why would you say that?" He said, "Well," he says, "I have seven publics." He said, 01:20:00"I've got the students, see, I got the faculty, I've got the football fans, I've got the legislature, I've got the governor, uh, I've got this, I've got that." He said, "Now, every year, I'm going to make a big decision that's going to piss off one of those." (laughs) He said, "Now, in seven years, I'm going to make a decision that pisses off every one of them, and I'm going to be gone." (laughs) And sure enough, in seven years, he was gone. (laughter) But I went to him--before he left, I said--I said, "You know, Mr. President, I--I--you're--you ever thought about having--creating a vice president for computing?" I was director of computing. And he said, "No." He said, "I've--I've tried that out"--and he was president at Wyoming before that. He said, "We had that at Wyoming and I don't--it didn't work very well. So, I'm not going to do that here." So, I thought, well, okay, but I'd really like to be a vice president. 01:21:00And so, there--turned out that there was a guy at the University of South Carolina who was a voice president who died. He'd had a heart attack, he died. And there was an opening there, so I sent a resume over, and sure enough, I got the letter back saying come on over for an interview. So, I went over for an interview. And, uh, interviewed and went home, nothing happened. I thought, well, that was--that's that. But then, about a month later, I get this phone call from this secretary. She said, "We want you to come here and look for a house." I thought look for a house? (laughs) "I don't have a job!" She said, "Oh, you'll have the job." (laughs) So, I went to the University of South Carolina as a vice president, and that was a great experience. And the guy there was the--uh, provost was a wonderful, wonderful guy. Uh, Art Smith. And, 01:22:00uh, he helped me a lot. Uh, but then the president at South Carolina got himself into trouble--actually went to jail, and a new president came in. Well, while they were looking for a new president, Art put his hat in the ring to be president. And it turned out Art didn't get the job, and he was--but he wanted to be president somewhere. And he ended up as president at the University of Utah. So, when he went to Utah, uh, at some point he called me and asked me if I wanted to come to Utah, and I said, "Well"--he said, "I--I want to create a job for you here at the University of Utah, a chief information officer." So, I said--uh, I said, "Great, great." Yeah, I'd love to work for this guy. So, that's when I went to University of Utah. I was there for two years, and he left, and I just--that was 197--1997. When he left, I decided to retire.

FERNHEIMER: And then you moved back to--

SOLOMON: Came back here, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So, through all this experience, when you were developing your expertise in computing and computer science, and you had your family with you, tell me a little bit about what your Jewish life looked like then. Were you members of temple or synagogues? Did you--what--what kinds of values did you focus on with your children?

SOLOMON: I was just a workaholic. I--I--and that's one of the greatest--probably--uh, when I look back--you know, there's an old saying, nobody ever--on their dying--deathbed ever said I spent too little time at the office. Uh, but I was one of those people that--I'd work seven days a week. Uh, I didn't spend enough time with my family. Uh, ended up with a divorce. (laughs) And, uh, one child that, uh, was alienated from. So, I--both of them. 01:24:00I had two daughters, they--I was really alienated from both of them until later on. And, uh, one of 'em died. The other one became real--great friend of mine. She's now a wonderful friend, daughter. But it was--uh, I spent almost all the time working. Uh, I--now, I did spend some time in--in Utah, we had one temple. Uh, it was a--interesting thing, because they had a--a--a Conservative congregation, a Reform congregation, and an Orthodox congregation in one temple with one rabbi. (laughs) And they'd have--uh, Friday night, they'd have Reform services. Saturday morning, they'd have Conservative services. And then, they had a little chapel, uh, which would hold about twenty-five people and, uh, they 01:25:00would have, uh, Orthodox services there on Friday night. Uh, but that was a--well, a great experience, 'cause, uh, everybody was part of the same melting pot, in a sense, but, uh, with their own identities, you know? So, I spent a lot of time there. Course, my brother was the--before that, my brother was the--I think I mentioned he was the director of the Jewish community center, and he had a great--he died before I moved to Utah. But, uh, he had a great reputation, so I--I--when I came there, everybody had open arms for me, uh, in the Jewish community. So, I got to know a lot of people, had a great experience there.

FERNHEIMER: How--how--describe the kind of differences or similarities in your experiences in Utah and your experiences here in Kentucky in Jewish life.

SOLOMON: How are they different?

FERNHEIMER: Or how are they similar? Just--can you tell me a little bit about one in comparison to the other?

SOLOMON: Uh, well, actually, it's--when I was in Utah, I think I'd go to temple maybe once every two months. High holy days, of course. When I came back to Lexington, I was always--I've never been in a--a--anything but a Reform temple. When I was a kid in Louisville, we were members of a Reform temple -----------(??) Israel. And they didn't even have bar mitzvahs. It was--you had confirmations. It was that liberal. That was that--almost secular, you know? Uh, everything was in English. There was no Hebrew in services in those days. Uh, kids didn't learn Hebrew. I didn't--I never learned Hebrew. Uh, when I came back to, uh, Lexington, moved back here after I retired, my best friends Earl and Sarah Levy--and they were in the synagogue, 01:27:00the--or--Conservative synagogue. So, I decided to join the synagogue, but I'd never been in a--Conservative synagogue before. And it was a shock. (laughs) 'Cause, you know, the only three English--the only four English words that are ever used in the synagogue is "You may be seated." (laughter) They--everything else is in Hebrew, you know? And I don't know a word of Hebrew. (laughs) So--but it was, uh, a nice--I wanted to support the--the, uh, synagogue financially. Uh, but then, uh, I also decided I wanted to support the temple as well. So, I joined both of them. And so, I--uh, now I typically go to services on Friday night at the temple and--and services on Saturday morning at the synagogue. And so, I have friends in both, uh, both places. And as we, you 01:28:00know, mentioned earlier, this--they're two different worlds. Uh, the people in the synagogue -----------(??) traditionally socialize with people in the synagogue. People in the temple socialize with people in the temple. And very seldom do you have any, uh, cross-fertilization, I guess you'd call it. We have a group of guys that have, uh, a--Jewish guys that have Friday lunch every week. And everybody in the group is from the temple except Earl Levy. Earl comes, but he's the only synagogue guy, 'cause--and so, it's a--very seldom do you see a--a--any kind of a get-together with a mixture. And I--

FERNHEIMER: --um--

SOLOMON: --that's too bad.

FERNHEIMER: How--how did the lunch bunch come about, this group of gentlemen who have lunch--who--who else goes? Earl, you--

SOLOMON: Oh, there were--there're about twelve people that are--uh, I don't 01:29:00know how it came about, but just one day somebody said to me, years ago, "There's a group that gets together for lunch every Friday, why don't you join us?" And I said, "Well, sure!" You know? So, I--I joined. And, uh, I joined B'nai B'rith. Now there's another organization, B'nai B'rith. And it has about twenty-five members, thirty members. It's another, uh, nice organiza--they have two functions a year. You get--uh, typically you go to a baseball game once a year, and then typically, there's a--or three things a year. Baseball game, outing, a, uh, sports cookout, and then some kind of a brunch with a speaker, a--typically something to do with state government or city government or some dignitary, you know, like (??)--

FERNHEIMER: Huh. Couple years ago, they sponsored one with President Capilouto, right? Was that B'nai B'rith?

SOLOMON: Right, right, B'nai B'rith, right.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Uh, so those three things--how many people are members of--the B'nai B'rith, it's a men's organization? Or is it B'nai B'rith--

SOLOMON: Well, there are some women--uh, wives, typically, that are--that come. They're members, I guess. It's typically a men's organization. Been a--it's been a men's--or--I guess. Probably about thirty--about (??) thirty people. And, uh, so there's a temple, the synagogue and the B'nai B'rith are the three organizations that I spend most of my--my time with, you know? Uh--

FERNHEIMER: How would you say your Jewishness is different from or similar to that of your parents?

SOLOMON: My parents were very secular. We didn't talk about Judaism in our family. Uh, I'm not even sure that when I was a kid we went to high holy days 01:31:00services. I went to--I remember I went to Sunday school. But with--yeah, (??) Sunday school was a place where on Sunday, you know, there'd be a--some--a volunteer teacher who would talk about Bible stories. I think they--they--they tried to teach us the Hebrew alphabet. (laughs) Well, I learned alpha--(laughs) Aleph, Aleph, Aleph. Uh, I learned the Greek alphabet better than the Jewish alphabet. (laughs) The Hebrew alphabet. Uh, I don't remember--you know, they were very non--they were very secular. They--I don't remember religion being brought up in the family. Now, in our fraternity, there was a lot of talk about Judaism. Uh, we--course, we were all Jewish, and we'd be proud of that, you know? We were real--very proud of being Jewish. Uh, but not in my family. And 01:32:00my brothers, same way. They, uh--although my brother's, uh, kids were bar mitzvahed. I was never bar mitzvahed because I'm--uh, I was confirmed. You had to give a speech, that's all you had to do. And I don't even remember what I talked about, but, uh, yeah, it was very secular in my growing up. Uh, that's probably why, when I went to college, I didn't really spend any--much time going to temple. I'd just go to temple sometimes when some of the other guys were going, and I'd go with them. But it wasn't like a commitment. Uh, since I came back to, uh, college, to--to Lexington--I've been here now fifteen years, uh, I made a much greater commitment to Judaism than I ever did before. I don't know why except, uh, the community, being part of the community, part of the Jewish community made me feel good. Uh, part of something, you know? You want to be 01:33:00part of something.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: So, that--it sounds like your relationship to Judaism has--has changed a lot over the years, uh--

SOLOMON: What worries me is that--uh, the future. You know, in the--in Lexington, these, uh, Jewish kids will get bat mitzvahed or bar--bar mitzvahed. They come to--they--uh, before they're bar mitzvahed, you see 'em in--in temple or in synagogue, uh, periodically, and then they get bar mitzvahed or bat mitzvahed, you never see 'em again. And, uh, part of the reason for that is there isn't what--what I had when I was growing up was we had this Jewish fraternity, uh, which allowed kids to get together, have fun together, go places together, do things together. And they don't have that in Lexington, and it's--it's--uh, for some years now, there's--temple has had a--a Jewish youth group called, uh, NFTY [North American Federation of Temple Youth]. And the 01:34:00synagogue has had a youth group called BBYO [B'nai B'rith Youth Organization]. And neither one of 'em have much mass. You know, I don't know how many kids from either [??] but the--apparently, there aren't very many kids. And for years, I've been trying to get 'em to put 'em--put these together, at least to have it--that in common. Um, with more kids together--would probably be a good thing. But, uh, up until now, the rabbi at the temple was vehemently against that. I don't know whether he thought Conservative people would pollute the kids or--(laughs)--what. But, um, he--well, he didn't want to have any part of it. Now, the new rabbi coming in, I think, is more, uh, amenable. We're going to try to see if we can't get something done there. But, uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, Rabbi Klein was not in favor of -----------(??)

SOLOMON: He was definitely not.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: Not in favor. Uh, but Rabbi Smolkin (??) is. And, uh, I think Rabbi 01:35:00Werchafter (??) is, also. I talked to him briefly about it, and he said that was one of the things on his to-do list. Now, I took--I took that as a yes. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

SOLOMON: So, uh--

FERNHEIMER: How does your relationship to Jewish--

SOLOMON: But the other thing about today that worries me is that--

FERNHEIMER: Sorry, I didn't--

SOLOMON: You know, as Reform Judaism becomes more traditional--you know, there's more Hebrew, there's more, uh, uh, attention to the Torah than there used to be, uh, more attention to, uh, uh, Haphtarah, reading the Haphtarah in the Reform that the young people are--I think that--I think that's going to turn them off even more. I think it--they're going to see this as--well, the--first of all, they don't see religion as very relevant any--in--in the first place. And I think when we--we go--we move more to--traditionally, they're going to 01:36:00see--of it--even less relevant. And I don't think that's good for the--for Judaism. Uh, but that's the way things are going, and--no question about it.

FERNHEIMER: I--I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you before.

SOLOMON: No, no, go ahead.

FERNHEIMER: But while we're talking about children, I want to ask about--how does your relationship to Jewish identity in practice compare to your children's relationship to Jewish identity and practice?

SOLOMON: Oh, that's a sad story. (laughs) Uh, when I got married, uh, well, my--before I got married, my wife-to-be wasn't Jewish. She was from a little town in eastern Kentucky. Belfry, Kentucky, uh, which had one Jewish family. And, you know, in the--in the hills, they always thought--as Jews as kind of strange people, you know? Kind of suspicious, then--then--different, real 01:37:00different. In fact, in some places, they'd have a--a Jewish family and they'd--you know, instead of calling him Mr.--Mr. Rose, Mr. Jones, Mr.--"the Jew". You know, "the Jew came in here the other day." Uh, anyway, she came from one of those little towns where they had no Jewish people. And, uh, probably a lot of anti-Semitism, just because Jews are different, you know? But anyway, we were--wanted to get married, and we went to see the rabbi in Louisville. And he said, "Well," he said, "I--I'll marry you under one condition, and that is if you agree to bring your children up Jewish." So, her parents came to this meeting, my parents came to the meeting, my brothers came to the meeting, her--her brothers came to the meeting. We all agreed that's what we're going to do. So, we--I was in the Air Force at the time, so we get 01:38:00back in the Air Force and the baby's born. And, lo and behold, about two years later, she came to me and she said, "I can't do this." I said, "What do you mean you can't do this?" She said, "I can't bring up the children Jewish." I said, "Why is that?" She said, "Because they'll be discriminated against all the rest of their lives, and I don't want that for my children." And I told her, "Well, it wasn't like--wasn't that bad and, yeah, there's discrimination, but it's--this is what we agreed to!" She said, "I can't do it. Can't do it. Can't do it." So, they grew up without any religious training at all.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: Uh, she became part of the Unitarian Church, and the Unitarian Church is sort of like a social club, you know? They don't really talk about religion. They talk about social issues, which is probably--may--as important if not more 01:39:00important religion! (laughs) Uh, but--uh, they didn't get any religious training at all. Uh, so I--I feel badly about that, but that's the way it--it happened, you know?

FERNHEIMER: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bring up something--

SOLOMON: No, no, that's--

FERNHEIMER: --difficult, uh--

SOLOMON: It wasn't--no, it's not difficult. Actually, uh, it's the way things are. You can't, you know, cry over spilled milk.

FERNHEIMER: How did you meet your wife, uh, from this small town?

SOLOMON: In college.

FERNHEIMER: In college?

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: At UK?

SOLOMON: At UK, yeah, uh--uh, actually, I took her to a fraternity--one of our fraternity parties, and we started dating after that, and one thing lead to another.

FERNHEIMER: So, was there a lot of mixed dating while you were in the fraternity?

SOLOMON: Yeah. I'd say almost nobody dated Jewish girls. Uh--

FERNHEIMER: And why was that?

SOLOMON: Uh, I don't know. Uh, I think maybe, uh--uh, non-Jewish girls were more attractive to guys, you know? They were blondes and svelte and, uh, things like that. Uh, I--I don't know. I--I never--I never dated a Jewish girl in the whole time I was in college. I--I didn't date that many women. I probably dated four different women--(laughs)--in four years. But, uh, I wasn't big in dating, uh, but I had to take somebody to that Saturday night party! (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: So, you--

SOLOMON: I--I didn't want to wait on other people.

FERNHEIMER: -----------(??)

SOLOMON: Uh--

FERNHEIMER: So, how would you say, uh--

SOLOMON: There weren't very many Jewish girls, that's part of it.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

SOLOMON: Yeah, there were only about six or seven Jewish girls that we knew about.

FERNHEIMER: So, there were way more men, Jewish men--

SOLOMON: Yeah, about thirty or--

FERNHEIMER: --on campus at the time.

SOLOMON: --thirty or so men, yeah. So--

FERNHEIMER: That's not a lot of women to go around.

SOLOMON: No, not at all.

FERNHEIMER: And did--

SOLOMON: And--you know, and--and just to be frank, most of the Jewish girls weren't very good-looking, which--which didn't help them a--a lot, you know?

FERNHEIMER: Did--were they interested in dating--in Jewish men? Or were they here to date whomever when they were here? Did they--

SOLOMON: -----------(??)

FERNHEIMER: --socialize with you, the sorority, Phi Sigma Sigma?

SOLOMON: I'm sure they wanted to date. I mean, I--I, well, I would just assume they did. Uh, everybody likes to go out and have fun. Uh, but I don't--can't answer that question. I just don't know.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah. While you were president, were there organized functions with the Z--Jewish fraternity and the Jewish sorority? Or they--

SOLOMON: --no--

FERNHEIMER: --did their own things?

SOLOMON: They did their own things. Uh, I don't ever remember a joint activity 01:42:00with the sorority.

FERNHEIMER: Any sorority or that sorority?

SOLOMON: Any sorority. Uh, mostly guys would just get a date on their own and we'd have our own party.

FERNHEIMER: At the house.

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: Um, how would you say where you grew up in Kentucky and where you've lived your adult life has affected where--your relationship with Judaism?

SOLOMON: Uh, well, I said, in my earliest life, earlier life, when I was a kid, we--I had very little connection--except for my--when I got into high school with--with the Pi Tau Pi fraternity. And some of those guys I'm still close with today. Uh, fact, about five years ago, I--I called--there were six or seven of 'em that were--live in Louisville, and we all got together and had dinner one night.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

SOLOMON: And this was from--God, 195--uh, '54, '55.

FERNHEIMER: Who--who was--

SOLOMON: I mean--yeah, uh, '50. No, 1948, '49.

FERNHEIMER: Wow. Who are the gentlemen who are still there in Louisville who were part of Pi Tau Phi?

SOLOMON: Who were the what?

FERNHEIMER: Who are the gentlemen who are still there who are--

SOLOMON: Oh, gosh, uh, Morris Weiss is a cardiac surgeon. Robert Kessler is a--was a--orthopedic surgeon. Bobby Hertzfeld is a--I think he's an attorney. Bill Fish had (??) owned a clothing store. Uh, Jimmy Droughtman (??), I think, did something with stocks. Uh, yeah, there were a dozen more.

FERNHEIMER: And that's the same Robert Kessler who was your next door neighbor?

SOLOMON: Yes, Robert. Yeah, Kessler. Yeah. We--uh, back--about five years 01:44:00ago, we had dinner together.

FERNHEIMER: Wow.

SOLOMON: (laughs) So, uh, yeah, uh, but then, uh, I--I went through a period where I had very little connection with Judaism. Uh, when I was in the Air Force and when I was at these other universities. And then when I--but when I came back to Lexington, I got reconnected with the Jewish community.

FERNHEIMER: What was the impetus to reconnect?

SOLOMON: Well, my relation--started with my relationship with Earl and Sarah, and Earl and--Earl and Sarah are--are very, um, uh, involved. Sarah knows everybody in the Jewish community. (laughs) And Earl--uh, Earl, he goes to synagogue most every Saturday morning. So, I go there, too. Uh, and then I get 01:45:00involved with, uh, the different groups, the--like--like the lunch group, uh, B'nai B'rith.

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

SOLOMON: So, I just--I just keep--keep involved with the Jewish community. Stay involved, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And what's the best part of that for you?

SOLOMON: Feeling part of a--I think it's like kids that, you know, become members of a gang. They want--they need a place to belong. They need a place to believe that they're part of something, uh, other than themselves. And I think that's what a Jewish community does for me. It makes me feel part of something bigger. Uh, friends that--uh, it's always good to have friends. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

SOLOMON: So, it makes me feel good.

FERNHEIMER: Looking back, is there anything you would change about your relationship with Judaism over the years?

SOLOMON: Uh, I just wish my kids had been fortunate enough to, uh, get--be 01:46:00involved in Judaism, but they--uh, my daughter is very--you know, the one that's still living is very happy. She's, uh--I guess she's happy. Uh, she doesn't--I think there's a--just kind of religious void in her life that would probably make her feel more a part of something. I don't think she feels part of something except for, you know, the two of us, we have a wonderful relationship. But it's just--it's different to have--be part of a community.

FERNHEIMER: Mm.

SOLOMON: I don't think she has that.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: And, uh, she calls herself Jewish, but she doesn't do anything about it. (laughs) She calls herself Jewish because I'm Jewish, I think. Uh, and, uh, she comes--when--sometimes she'll come here and we'll go to services together. But other than that, she doesn't participate in--where she--and she 01:47:00lives in Columbus, Ohio.

FERNHEIMER: And what's her name?

SOLOMON: Huh?

FERNHEIMER: What's her name?

SOLOMON: Elizabeth.

FERNHEIMER: Elizabeth--

SOLOMON: --uh-huh--

FERNHEIMER: --Solomon.

SOLOMON: Elizabeth Solomon.

FERNHEIMER: (inudible)

SOLOMON: She works for the, uh, Department of Education in Ohio where they oversee the, uh, school lunch program.

FERNHEIMER: Oh.

SOLOMON: She's a nutritionist. And they, uh, make--try to make sure that lunches are what they're supposed to be. The right content of calories, fat, sugar, all those things, you know? But, uh, anyway--

FERNHEIMER: One last question for you, Marty, which is--is there anything else you'd like to share with me about being Jewish, about living in Kentucky, about what it means to be a Kentuckian who's also Jewish, or anything else I didn't ask about that you'd like to share before--

SOLOMON: Uh, I don't know. I guess--I--I think what--what Judaism has brought to me is the, uh, the notion that, uh, God is with me. You know, I, uh, I think 01:48:00that, uh, God is my, uh, conscience. And, uh, every time I start to do something, uh, there's a guy sitting over here. (laughs) And he's--he's saying, "Wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Think about that. Think about that." And, uh, I think Judaism has brought that to me. Uh, and I really do think a lot about right and wrong and, uh, trying to do the right thing. Not that I'm bragging, but it's just, uh, something that, uh, that's come to me through Judaism. Now, maybe it's--would come to me some other way, I don't know. But I think Judaism has brought that concept of morality to me. First of all, we talk about it a lot in Colel on Saturday mornings.

FERNHEIMER: At the temple, correct?

SOLOMON: At the temple. Uh, occasionally we talk about it in services. Not often, but occasionally.

FERNHEIMER: And that's at the synagogue?

SOLOMON: Either place.

FERNHEIMER: Or--either place.

SOLOMON: Either place. Uh, I--uh, I get into a lot of discuss--arguments with my Jewish friends because--about Israel, because most of my Jewish friends are, uh, unconditionally supporters of Israel. Whatever they do, it's okay. It's good. It's necessary or it's required or it's justified or it's whatever. And I don't feel that way. Uh, and I think that, uh, I used to, uh, have big, terrible arg--not terrible. Long arguments with Rabbi Roberts, uh, and I told--I'd say to him, "You know, Rabbi, you shouldn't--you know, every time you--you have a service, in part of the service we say God--uh, peace is our 01:50:00most precious gift. And that's just bullshit. (laughs) Because we don't believe that." He said--"You know, if we really believed that, we'd be working on peace with the Palestinians every day. But we're not. We don't." "Oh," he's--you know, he'd say, "Well, you know, you can't work with terrorists, you can't do that." Peace is not our most precious gift. I think it is. But most Jews don't. At--at least they don't--they don't live their--they don't talk--walk the talk. Walk the talk. And I just wish people--more people would. But, you know, it's funny about--if you say anything supportive of Palestinians, you're typically called a--uh, anti-Semite or you're called a pro-Palestinian, an anti-Israeli, you know? And I say to people, "You got to 01:51:00look at both people--these are people. They're all people. They're all--we're all people, you know? And every human being's a person." And that really bothers me about Judaism--is--is that we're very hypocritical. Most Jews are hypocritical, you know? They, uh, they say, "Well, we had to kill two thousand Gazans because they were sending rockets over." And you say, "Well, wait a minute, well, why don't we talk about--we're going to do it again, but before we do it again, why don't we sit down and talk to them about what's the problem and how do we deal with the problem? Can we solve the problem?" But no, we just sit back and say we can't negotiate with those people, so we'll have to kill them again. Have to kill 'em. It just bothers me. Really bothers me. But you 01:52:00can't--you can't really talk about it. Gary--I don't know if you know Gary Yaras? (??)

FERNHEIMER: Um-hm.

SOLOMON: Well, Gary's very outspoken about this, but he's a pariah now in the Jewish community. You know, he's a pariah. They--he--he's--he published an article in Shalom that was--some people took issue with. He was--it was very anti-Zionist. Uh, the--well, just what I've been talking about, where we're not talking enough about peace. We talk more about war. But--and he was castigated for that article. Just--in fact, the--Shalom printed a retraction later, saying they shouldn't have even published.

FERNHEIMER: And that was recently, right? The--

SOLOMON: Huh?

FERNHEIMER: When was the article published? Yaras's article?

SOLOMON: About three or four months ago.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah, it was pretty recent.

SOLOMON: And the--the publication committee of Shalom--of the Jewish Federation 01:53:00was pulled over the coals for having published such a--such an article that disagreed with--with the majority of Jews. No, can't disagree with people. And that's so bothersome to me. It's--it's censorship. But that's the way our community is. The Jewish community is so--they feel that Israel is their baby, and you never talk bad about your baby.

FERNHEIMER: When--and when you say our community, you mean the whole Jewish community or the Lexington Jewish committee?

SOLOMON: The majority--I think the majority--well, certainly the majority of the Jewish community in Lexington. You--you just can't talk about--I talk--I talk to people about the--the boycott--the BDS [Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions] movement that's going on around the country. And it's growing. And people say, "Oh, that's just anti-Semitism." And I say, "No, it's not 01:54:00anti-Semitism! People are concerned about the way Palestinians are being treated, about the way the land is being grabbed up, the way that Eastern (??)--Jews of Jerusalem--Arabs are being treated. They're concerned about those things. It isn't anti-Semitism. It's anti-policies." "No, it's just anti-Semitism. They don't--you know, at--BDS is just anti-Semit--" and they don't--they don't get it. Don't get it. So, if you talk about this, you're liable to be labeled an anti-Semite. It's sad.

FERNHEIMER: And--and that's in both communities.

SOLOMON: Um-hm.

FERNHEIMER: Both at the temple and the synagogue, you--

SOLOMON: Yeah.

FERNHEIMER: In your estimation?

SOLOMON: Yeah. Very few people take a long view of this and have any criticism whatsoever for Israel. And, uh--but that bothers me. But it, uh--nothing I can 01:55:00do about it. I--I--I wrote an article about, uh--well, that's another story. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: No, it--last bit. You wrote an article for Shalom or--

SOLOMON: Yeah, I wrote an article about the greatest threat to--see, I think one of the great threats to Israel is not--not Iran, not Hamas, not Hezbollah. I think it's the Ultra-Orthodox Jewish community in Israel, because they're very fundamentalist, and they're growing at a rate that within--by 2070, they'll be the majority if the--if nothing changes. And when they become the majority, I think there's a possibility they're going to pass draconian laws that say you--you must not do this, you must not do that. You must eat kosher, you must--if you--if you drive on Saturday, you go to jail. I mean, no--no telling 01:56:00what they're going to do. And when they have those kinds of laws, people are going to leave. They're not going to live under those conditions. And so I wrote this article, it said, uh, "Dateline 2070, today Israel died. (laughs) She put up a good fight. She worked hard, made a lot of great inventions, allowed a place for all Jews to come from all over the world. But in the end, Judaism killed her."

FERNHEIMER: Hmm. (laughter) And when was that? When did you publish (??)--

SOLOMON: Well, I submitted it to Shalom and they rejected it. They wouldn't publish it, so--

FERNHEIMER: Do you still have the article?

SOLOMON: I resubmitted it and changed a few things. Instead of saying that the Ultra-Orthodox will pass these laws, I put in there, you know, basically they--they might pass these laws and we'll see. And they might--they might 01:57:00publish it under those circumstances. But we'll see. We'll--we'll see. But, you know, it--it's--if you criticize Israel in any way, it's dangerous. People don't want to hear that.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

SOLOMON: You know? Israel's my baby. Don't talk--my--that bad about my baby. (laughs)

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

SOLOMON: My--part of my family, you know? I don't know--want anybody talk badly about my daughter.

FERNHEIMER: Right.

SOLOMON: And no matter what she does, I'm going to stand by my daughter. If she happens to get in trouble, I'm going to stand by my daughter, you know? And that's the way people are about Israel. I don't care what she does, what she does, how she does it, whatever, I'm going to stand by her and support her. And I--sometimes I think that that's not a friend. I think that's a--I think a friend tries to help somebody do the right thing, and not always just say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're doing the right thing." I--I think that's dangerous. I mean, if I'd--if I told my daughter everything she did was wonderful and never 01:58:00told her, you know, "You shouldn't do that," I wouldn't be doing her any favors.

FERNHEIMER: Yeah.

SOLOMON: And I think the same thing about Israel.

FERNHEIMER: Hmm.

SOLOMON: But, uh, most people don't--don't agree.

FERNHEIMER: Well, I thank you for sharing that today.

SOLOMON: Yeah, sure.

FERNHEIMER: And for sharing your afternoon with me, as well.

SOLOMON: Oh, yeah.

FERNHEIMER: And allowing me--

SOLOMON: Well, thank you for having me. I--

FERNHEIMER: And I hope that if we have some follow-up questions, you might be willing to either come back or talk to another person--

SOLOMON: --okay--

FERNHEIMER: --uh, about your time here at UK. But thank you so much, Marty.

SOLOMON: You're--

FERNHEIMER: I really appreciate it.

SOLOMON: You're welcome. Welcome.

END OF AUDIO FILE