Interview with Judy Saxe, December 1, 2015

CRANE: For official purposes, today is December 1st, 2015. My name is Janice Crane, and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored to be here today with Judy Saxe. Thank you for doing this, Judy. Uh, what was your name at birth?

SAXE: My name at birth was uh, actually Beverly Judith Shapiro. And my parents very quickly changed it to Judy.

CRANE: That's interesting. When and where were you born?

SAXE: I was born September 19th, 1935, Madison, Wisconsin.

CRANE: And are your parents alive?

SAXE: No, my parents passed away uh, quite a number of years ago now.

CRANE: And what were your parents' names? And their occupations?

SAXE: My -- oh. My mother was uh, Leila Sinaiko, that's spelled S-I-N-A-I-K-O, 00:01:00um, and she, uh, was a phys ed teacher. She went to -- graduated from the University of Wisconsin. My dad, uh, who was born in Palestine, in Jerusalem, uh, came as a young teenager to this country. Uh, ended up with both a rabbinical degree and a law degree. And um, wound up finally uh, working as a rabbi, but had done a number of other things as well. His name was David Shapiro.

CRANE: Did your parents and/or grandparents names change when they came to America?

SAXE: I don't think so. I think um, I remember my paternal grandparents, my grandfather was Nahum, my grandmother was Nahama, and I don't think they ever 00:02:00changed it. My grandmother actually never really learned English. Their -- their common language was really Yiddish. And um, my maternal grandparents um, my grandmother's name was Rachel. So, it might have -- they might have used the Yiddish version at some point, but it was Rachel. My grandfather was Alex. And there was a kind of a Russianized form of it that uh, that evidently, they called him. But by the time I knew him, he was Alex, and that was how he was listed in -- in the obituary and all of that sort of thing.

CRANE: And where were your grandparents from?

SAXE: My paternal grandparents, um, actually both were born in Jerusalem.

CRANE: Oh.

SAXE: My grandmother was from an -- a very old, old family, many generations in Palestine, part of the Jewish community. And -- before it became Israel. And 00:03:00my grandfather's parents migrated to Palestine in around 1850. My grandfather was born, along with multiple siblings, born in Jerusalem. My maternal grandparents, my grandfather -- well they came from a small town in Belarus, and -- called -- they called it Kapulya, but on the Russian maps, it's -- Belarussian maps, it's Kapul. And my grandmother originally came from Poland, and I do not remember how she met my grandfather, but they lived -- they were married and lived in Kapul, and uh, had, um, all but I think -- I think they had seven of their eight surviving children all in Belarus before they came to this 00:04:00country, and I believe one of my uncles, the youngest, was born here in the United States. But they came to Madison when they -- when they came, because my grandfather's uh, other members of my grandfather's family had already come to -- to Madison.

CRANE: Do you have siblings, Judy?

SAXE: I have a brother.

CRANE: And what is his name, and where is he in the lineage? Is he older, younger?

SAXE: Oh, he's about uh, three and a half years younger than I am. And he was born in Green Bay, Wisconsin. My dad had a congregation there at the time he was born. Um, and um, he uh, he lives in Jerusalem. He went back to uh, Israel in 1959, actually as a student, and basically he never left. He -- he did a lot of traveling, he lived in Rome and worked in Rome for a number of years at one 00:05:00point, but he uh, basically lived in Israel the whole time.

CRANE: And what is your husband's name?

SAXE: My husband's name is Stanley. Stanley Richard Saxe. Um --

CRANE: And do you have um, children? And what are their ages and do you have grandchildren? And what are their ages?

SAXE: Yeah. All -- all of the above. (laughter) I -- we have three children. The oldest is Harriet, who all of our children were born here in Lexington. Uh, the oldest is Harriet, who was born September 13th, 1963, and uh, the next one was Natalie, born November 17th, 1965. Uh, and Neil was born December 10th, 1967. Um, they all live in the state of Washington now. And uh, Harriet is the mother of our two younger granddaughters, Zoe, who's almost 16, and Olivia who's 00:06:0013 and a half. And Natalie is not married, Neil has our oldest granddaughter, Hila, that's spelled H-I-L-A, uh, it's a Hebrew name which means uh, "halo" or "aura." And um, she was born in Jerusalem at Hadassah Hospital in August of 19-- no. Yeah, 1997.

CRANE: Great family. Uh, your father was a rabbi, how would you describe your parents? Both your mother and your father's relationship to Judaism?

SAXE: Oh. Well um, you know, obviously with my dad being the rabbi, it was a very strong connection. It was -- he was a -- it was an interesting -- he was an interesting person in -- in terms of his Jewish identity. And uh, as was my 00:07:00grandfather, my grandfather uh, pretty naturally, as one would expect, was Orthodox. He was a rabbi. And he uh, he was Orthodox, but he was really very modern in his outlook. He was very interested in psychology, he um, you know, on the one hand, while he was Orthodox in his personal observance, he was not -- uh, he was not overly um, oppressive in terms of how he related to me, who was clearly not Orthodox. And um, my dad, uh, actually got his rabbinical ordination, semikhah, from my grandfather's yeshiva, which he had established in uh, New York City. And uh, he -- so he was Orthodox in upbringing, and Orthodox in his training, but he really was Conservative, just out of personal 00:08:00conviction. Um, in terms of his approach to Judaism. And he was -- he was very vibrant. He had a wonderful personality, and he related really well to people. So as a rabbi, he was very popular. And um, it made it easy for people, he was very flexible with people about um, what they did and they didn't do. So it made it very easy for people to relate to him. And confide in him. Um, and he always, you know, one of the things I -- and he was a very, really an ardent Zionist. So, there were two sort of major streams in our home. One was obviously a commitment to -- to Jewish living, and he used to say that uh, you 00:09:00know, you have to look at the positives of being -- to enjoy being Jewish. It was not a burden. And the other thing was that he had a -- a terrific commitment to the survival of the Jewish people, and -- and to the establishment of the state of Israel, as did my grandparents on both sides, really. But my paternal grandparents, um, my grandfather left Palestine at the time of the First World War, and my grandmother came with the children, uh, they ended up in Poland for a few years, and then -- until the war was over, and then came after the First World War was over. And my paternal grandparents removed to -- returned to Jerusalem in the early 1950s, and lived there until they died. And my uh, dad, I talk about that because my dad really had a lot of the same feelings, and one of the earliest things I remember was his talking about the 00:10:00British white paper, and what it meant in terms of um, not allowing Jews to re -- go to Palestine, and what this meant in terms of the Jewish communities in Europe, and what was happening, uh, during -- during the rise of Nazism in World War II, and after World War II. And he was very strongly committed to that, and involved in working toward the establishment of the state. And my mother also um, you know, was a very -- I would say that even though my maternal grandparents' orientation was Orthodox, they were not that -- they were not strict. Um, as strict about it, although it was a kosher home, and my grandfather was the pillar of a small little Orthodox congregation in Madison, 00:11:00and uh, you know, certainly attended synagogue regularly, uh, every Shabbat. Um, and they -- they too had a very strong commitment to the idea of a -- a Jewish state, a Jewish homeland. And um, Henrietta Szold, who was the founder of Hadassah, had a sister who lived in Madison, whose husband -- her brother-in-law was uh, in the department of psychology at the University of Wisconsin. And my grandmother and my mother and um, all of the family, you know, really had a very strong commitment to the idea of the um, establishment of a -- of a homeland.

CRANE: When you um, described your home as being Orthodox and kosher, and yet you say it wasn't strict, what did -- what do you mean by that?

SAXE: Oh. Well my grandparents. OK, so my -- in my paternal grandparents' home, it was pretty strict. You didn't light lights on Shabbat and you, you know, didn't light a fire. Uh, when they returned to Jerusalem, and I was there for a year during uh, after they had come back, and I would go to visit, their -- in -- in uh, Jerusalem at that time, that was the '50s, they had these sort of little stoves that you would um, I guess they were electric, I don't remember. It doesn't matter so much whether they're electric or gas, but the idea was that it was a stove that could be kept at a very low flame, and that was how they kept the food hot. And my grandmother would make cholent every Friday and, you know, if I came for lunch, and later my brother said the same thing, you know, you would come, and that was your Shabbat lunch. And they did not -- uh, they didn't light lights, they didn't, you know, use the telephone, 00:13:00they certainly didn't ride, um, and it -- it was just their way of life, and -- and that was the way it was when they lived in Brooklyn, when I was little, before they had returned to Israel. And we would visit, and um, with my maternal grandparents, uh, they would turn on lights. My grandmother did not cook or sew on Shabbat, or iron or do anything of that sort. Uh, and my grandfather basically um, I guess, by the time I really remembered and knew him well, he was retired. But uh, he could walk around the corner to his synagogue, so he didn't need to ride. And um, I don't remember if they would play the radio, but they were not quite as strict in their observance as my paternal grandparents were.

CRANE: And in your home growing up, what was that like? What was Judaism like there?

SAXE: Oh, so -- yeah. So, so ours was already, I don't know if you would call it more Americanized or whatever. But uh, my mother wouldn't sew, she would turn on the stove, but she wouldn't cook the cooking. She always -- we kept a kosher home, she always uh, you know, basically cooked for Shabbat on Friday. I mean, yeah, there -- we went through a long time when she would make her own challahs and so on, but it was all done on Friday. She really didn't cook on Saturday. You know, of course my dad would -- would be at uh, services on Shabbat morning anyway, as a matter of course, and Friday night services. Uh, being a Conservative congregation, uh, they at that time, they had um, services -- late Friday night services, around eight o'clock at night. Um, you know, now a lot of Conservative congregations not -- you know, not only Orthodox but Conservative, and even Reform congregations, will have an earlier Friday night 00:15:00Erev Shabbat service, so that everybody, you know, does the Kabbalat Shabbat, welcomes Shabbat, and goes home for dinner. Um, when I was growing up in Conservative congregations, they would, you know, because people worked until five, six o'clock, whatever, so they would come home, they would have their dinner, and then come to services, you know, later in the evening on Friday night. But um, my dad walked all his life, walked to the synagogue on -- until after the last few years when he really, um, he could -- he was still mobile but it was very difficult for him to walk, and my brother would take him. Uh, he would -- went to live with my brother in Jerusalem, after my mother died. And my brother would take him to the synagogue, uh, for Shabbat morning services. But um, up until that time, he walked every -- on Shabbat.

CRANE: What did your parents teach you about Judaism, and how did this impact the choices you made in life?

SAXE: Oh.

CRANE: That's a tough one, huh?

SAXE: Well, you know, I -- I lived -- I lived in a rabbi's home, so um, we -- we celebrated holidays, I, you know, from a young age, even before my dad had his congregation in Green Bay, but particularly after that, we moved back to Madison and he did not have a congregation in Madison. Um, you know, it was just a given that I would go -- go to Hebrew school, that I would go to Sunday school, they certainly believed that I, as a girl, should be educated Jewishly. Uh, I think my mother always regretted that she had very little formal Jewish education, it was more of what she learned from her parents at home, and, you know, my grandmother in the kitchen kind of thing. But -- uh, and in later 00:17:00years, I remember she would go to Hebrew classes that, you know, the congregation would run adult Hebrew classes. Um, but uh, and uh, except for one summer, I -- every -- from the time I was about nine years old, I was going to Jewish camps, and I -- for a couple of summers, I went to Roma in Wisconsin, right after it was established. And there, it was -- the idea was to -- Hebrew immersion, and so I really, I began to learn conversational Hebrew, along with the more conventional Biblical Hebrew that I learned in Hebrew school. And um, so it was just, it was -- it was just sort of a -- a given that that was what we were going to do. Um, once I was -- (laughter) also, I belonged, in Madison, we 00:18:00moved -- we moved to Green Bay when I was about three, three and a half. We came back to Madison when I was about nine. And my dad didn't -- as I said, did not have a congregation. So for a variety of reasons, we belonged to all three congregations that existed in Madison at the time. At the Orthodox congregation, because of my grandparents, at the Conservative congregation because my dad wanted -- and my mother wanted me to have the Hebrew school, you know, Jewish education. And the Reform congregation, because uh, he was a very good friend of the Reform rabbi, who was uh, a German refugee, and uh, who -- and they did not have Hebrew school, but they had a confirmation class. So I ended up being both bat mitzvah and confirmed. Bat mitzvah at the Conservative congregation, and confirmed in the Reform congregation. So, I had a lot of Jewish. (laughter)

CRANE: They kept you busy. Uh, where did you go to school? Um --

SAXE: You mean what --

CRANE: University.

SAXE: Oh, university? I went to Brandeis.

CRANE: And what did you study there?

SAXE: I majored in sociology. And um, and then I got a master's degree in social work at the University of Washington. I was already married, and we um, went out to the University of Washington for Stanley uh, to take a uh, post doc -- two year post doc program in periodontics, and I ended up in graduate school there.

CRANE: What involvement did you have in the Jewish organizations while you were on campus? And why, if you did?

SAXE: Oh, on campus?

CRANE: Mm-hmm.

SAXE: Um, I got very involved, and when I -- when I was in high school still, the -- and especially in -- well, in Madison, um, the -- the then-main Jewish 00:20:00Zionist student organization was something called the International Zionist Federation of America, IZFA. And uh, I knew about it and had contact with it there, because uh, we were also friendly with the Hillel rabbi, and once I had gone to Roma, he had a sort of a Hebrew conversational group that would meet Sunday evenings at his home, and so I used to go, even though I was still in high school. By the time I got to Brandeis, and then we moved to Florida and I had two years of high school in Florida. So there, I got very involved in Young Judaea, which is a Zionist youth movement. And uh, so by the time I got to 00:21:00Brandeis, IZFA was really dying. It had been -- it was pretty left -- left-wing, I don't know that that was the only reason, I think it just sort of had run its course. And had been, you know, at its strongest when the state of Israel -- when the War of Independence was going on, the state of Israel was established, and I got to college, it was 1953, I mean it wasn't so long after Israel had been established. And um, it -- so there was a kind -- so I was involved on campus, and then there was a conference that was held to -- in New York, to discuss what kind of a campus Zionist national, nationwide -- campus Zionist organization we wanted to have. You know, what we would develop. And 00:22:00out of that came something called the Student Zionist Organization. Now all of this had been -- also was supported by uh, through some of the adult Zionist organizations like the ZOA, Zionist Organization of America, Hadassah, and they had actually formed something called the American Zionist Youth Commission. So, we came under -- the Student Zionist Organization came under their umbrella, and we got support from them. So um, I was very involved in that for the first two years at Brandeis. And then I took a year off, went to Israel on a work study program that was run by the Jewish Agency for Israel, and actually went as a representative of SZO. And with -- and to do that program, you had to make a commitment to come back and work within your organization or movement for two 00:23:00years. So, that's what I did. (laughter) And um, we did a -- we organized, you know, a number of -- there were a group of us in the greater Boston area. And so, it wasn't even so much what we did on individual campuses as what we tried to do within a broader scope and, you know, Boston has tens of universities and colleges, and thousands and thousands of Jewish students, so we ran some educational programs, we uh, kind of partnered with the Boston University Hillel, and ran a number of um, holiday programs, Chanukah and Purim, and uh -- which is how I met Stanley. Um, we uh, did some of the same thing at Harvard Hillel. So, it was really kind of a broader, you know, broader base.

CRANE: Hmm. Before we get too much into your life here in Kentucky, is there anything unique we should know about your family background or childhood years that you haven't already mentioned?

SAXE: Oh gosh. Um, yeah I would say, yeah, I think -- I think one of the -- the most critical things that happened to me, there were a couple of things. One is that we moved from Wisconsin to Florida, and that was um, traumatic as me for a teenager but ended up being very beneficial in other ways. Because I got involved in Young Judaea, and through Young Judaea, I ended up going to Israel for the first time in 1952 for the summer. And that was really a -- a huge, um, 00:25:00it had a huge impact on me. Uh, it was really um, you know, it was something my -- my dad had always said we'll -- we'll go and visit when things settle down. And um, and then I ended up being the first one to go back, uh, from our family. Um, and I was there for six weeks, and it just um, it just was a pivotal time in my life. It was uh, and so it was then that I found out about this program that I did four years later, when I was in college. So I would say that was -- that was really significant. And also as a result of that move, I ended up at Brandeis. If I -- I'm not sure where I would have gone if we stayed in Madison, but if we had moved somewhere besides Florida, which uh, had a very strong 00:26:00element in the community that supported Brandeis, which was very new at the time, I probably would have ended up at a different campus, and, you know, would have had a very different experience.

CRANE: Hmm. OK. So what brought you to Kentucky?

SAXE: All right. So, skipping over a few years. So um, I met Stanley when um, I came back from Israel, from my year in Israel. And we were married in 1958. And he, uh, he -- I graduated from college, and he graduated from dental school, and decided that he wanted to uh, go on and uh, specialize in periodontics. And um, through a series of connections, which he'll tell you about, um, we ended up in Seattle at the University of Washington, uh, for his program. And uh, which 00:27:00took two years and then he was teaching for a couple of years, and we were just about ready to settle in Seattle, because we really loved it. Um, and had really built a wonderful community of friends. And he got a call from the uh, dental school here, they had not started -- they were just getting ready to open the dental school, and he was recruited to come here in the department of periodontics. Uh, so he was part of the opening faculty in 1962.

CRANE: Wow.

SAXE: Uh, it was a very small group, very dynamic, very exciting. Uh, mostly, you know, we were among the youngest but, you know, nobody was very old. And uh, and that's what got us here.

CRANE: From a Jewish perspective, what was the biggest adjustment, moving to Lexington?

SAXE: Um, it wasn't -- it -- it really wasn't uh, much of an adjustment. 00:28:00Growing up in Madison, which was basically a smaller Jewish community, not as small as Lexington, but a small town, small city, small town Jewish community, um, you know, it -- it was -- that was not so different. I -- what the big change really was that we came here, and we were no longer graduate students, and really began to feel a response -- an adult, grownup kind of responsibility to -- to get involved and be a part of the Jewish community. I mean, in -- in Seattle, um, yeah I went to services at various places and I had Jewish friends and, you know, and we would celebrate the holidays and the last year we were there, we did join a congregation. But it was, you know, still kind of operating on a graduate student mentality. So, I didn't feel as much of a 00:29:00responsibility to uh, even though I was working within the Jewish community, at the Jewish family service. But, you know, I didn't have that sense that I had to be, you know, take on some of the responsibility, and that certainly was something that happened here. I -- it wasn't a shock, it -- it really was -- was kind of nice, because everybody was very welcoming. Ohabei Zion in particular was -- is a very warm congregation, and the people we met at the beginning were very welcoming, very supportive. And -- and basically, just about everybody that we met in the Jewish community was -- was really lovely.

CRANE: Describe Judaism in your home as an adult in Lexington, and as a parent.

SAXE: Well --

CRANE: And maybe how it was different between -- from what it was like when you 00:30:00were growing up.

SAXE: Yeah, we um, yeah uh, we definitely tried to observe the holidays, and joining a congregation meant that we were, you know, if not every week, we were certainly attending synagogue more regularly, and certainly for the high holy days, and special occasions, and so on. And at home, just um, I remember the first -- I think it was the first Rosh Hashanah that we were here even, having another young couple over, and, you know, the cook -- cooking -- cooking myself, that was a big -- that really, for me, was a big change, because up until then, we always had friends, you know, grownup friends who would invite us for the 00:31:00holidays. And um, this was, you know, beginning to really build our own -- our own home, uh, around the holidays. And uh, once we started to have kids, um, you know, it became much more -- it became not only what we were doing for ourselves, but, you know, wanting to create that kind of an atmosphere, a positive atmosphere, for our children. So, you know, certainly, you know, having holiday meals, and holiday celebrations, and you know, giving the kids a sense of being Jewish, and growing up -- for them, growing up in Lexington, where they were, you know, very often, the only Jewish child in their class, you 00:32:00know, it meant very often, you know, I was, you know, the mom who trudged off to school to explain what it means to be Jewish in the classroom as part of a, you know, whatever um, you know, outreach. And it was -- but what I found in Lexington, I'm, you know, chances are, I know that there were country clubs that were restricted, but what I found in terms of our day to day life, the people we met and in the schools where my kids went um, you know, was more interest in what it was to be Jewish, because they had never met Jewish people before. And I remember um, one of the kids, uh, had a student teacher who was the wife of a minister, and she was so excited. (laughter) She'd never met a Jewish person before. So that was, you know, a lot of what our experience was, when the kids were little. And uh, and then becoming committed to things like Hebrew school, 00:33:00and Sunday school, and um, I did some teaching at the Hebrew school and Sunday school at Ohabei Zion, and I was -- ended up being the principal for, I don't know, about five, six, seven years, something like that. Um, so it um, you know, it -- again, became part of our lives, you know, day to day lives, because uh, I was -- I was involved with things like that. And -- and the sisterhood. Um, and so on.

CRANE: What were your children's involvement in the synagogue or the religious school, the community activities? Um.

SAXE: Well, their Hebrew school, you know, was a -- well Sunday school, as soon as they were old enough, which started really at a kindergarten level, uh, all 00:34:00the way through bar and bat mitzvah, and we really didn't have -- we did, uh, when I was Sunday school principal, we started a class, um, for junior high, at the time that was junior high, uh, for junior high kids. So beyond bar and bat mitzvah, not every child in the congregation who was bar and bat mitzvah ended up in that -- those classes, but quite a number did. And um, that was something that I really -- and, you know, got support from the parents, and -- and the uh, the congregation. The idea that their Jewish education shouldn't end with being bar or bat mitzvahed, that there really was more that they could do. So, it was a Sunday school class, if we had a good teacher, it was a good experience, if we didn't have such a good teacher, it was not such a great experience. Um, we 00:35:00were very fortunate for a couple of years, when I was principal, um, I think probably more when my middle daughter Natalie, um, was -- was going through that -- that age, time, um, we had a really terrific, uh, woman who was a professional educator. And she -- you know, she really did a great job. But the kids, I think it was important for the kids, because it was another way to connect to their Jewish peers. You know, they didn't all go to the same school, they didn't necessarily see each other on a daily basis. The other thing that was important for all three of my kids was Young Judaea, which we established. There was the -- the congregation went from having just -- just before we came 00:36:00to Lexington, having uh, given up its formal affiliation with the Orthodox movement. And began to move toward a more Conservative approach, uh, one of the big things was the men and women sitting together instead of separate. And um, they um, uh, it -- but they were not affiliated with the Conservative movement. So, we weren't -- uh, we weren't involved with the Conservative youth -- youth groups at all. And Young Judaea, through Hadassah, and through -- largely through the impetus of Marilyn Moosnick, we started to establish Young Judaea groups for the different age levels here. And that really made a difference, because the kids, it meant it was something that reached across congregational 00:37:00lines, um, to some extent it was also their -- Young Judaea has camps, summer camps, and the kids were going to camp, so they were meeting not only um, having some of their Lexington friends go, but meeting kids from -- particularly from all over the Midwest. Uh, and some of those friendships still exist today. You know, 30, 40 years later, so um, so that was a part of it. Um, so -- and then, you know, because I was um, when I was Sisterhood president, really the kids were too small, it didn't matter that much. But when I was Sunday school principal, they were all still in Sunday school, so that, you know, so they knew there was this close connection. And also, our oldest daughter Harriet actually worked for a couple of years while she was in high school as Rabbi Schwab's assistant. He had already become blind, and needed somebody, you know, an 00:38:00assistant in the classroom when he taught Hebrew school. And she -- she was his assistant for several years.

CRANE: I know that you were actively involved in the formation of the Havurah. Uh, can you first describe what the Havurah is, and tell about the Jewish community's climate that was key to its formation?

SAXE: Um, there was, in the '60s and '70s, the Havurah movement began. And it really, interestingly, it really began at Brandeis, way after I had left. But the original Havurah uh, was a group of students at Brandeis who wanted uh, something, there was a lot of um, feeling within the -- certainly the younger adult community, student community, younger adult community, that they wanted 00:39:00something that was not as structured as most congregations were, and are in many cases, that it was too stratified, it was too -- too rigid and, you know, it didn't matter what the stream of Judaism but that, you know, that the -- the um, governmental social structure was very stratified, very kind of rigid. And so, a group of students got together, and they were knowledgeable about uh, Jewish things, and uh, they wanted something that would be egalitarian, and uh, really to find new ways to live their Judaism. And um, so there was -- a group began, um, in the Boston area. A lot of -- really out of Brandeis. And they had a house in Somerville, Massachusetts, um, where they -- they lived and they 00:40:00celebrated, and they actually wrote um, one of the -- one of the couples was -- a collaboration of several others, wrote a couple of guidebooks, um, that -- talking about ways to celebrate -- to observe Jewish -- Judaism and celebrate, you know, going back to recipes for making challah, but then how do you make um, a whole wheat challah? Because that's healthier. Um, but, you know, ways to celebrate Sukkot, ways -- how, different -- a different approach to Pasoch so that when you had a Seder, you didn't necessarily read from the Maxwell House Haggadah but there were, you know, they wrote their own Haggadahs and related it to current events and current times. Reconstructionist Judaism had done some of 00:41:00this, but this, you know, this was really the idea that you're doing it for yourself and your peers and you're doing it together. So, this was really a growing movement. In the meantime, here in Lexington, um, the Ohabei Zion was um, you know, was still very -- very much, even though they would call them -- might have called themselves conservative, as opposed to Orthodox, it certainly wasn't Orthodox. But yeah, I mean for starts, because you had the mixed seating and, you know, there were other things. But, you know, there was still -- women were not counted in the minyan, girls could be bat mitzvahed, but only on Friday night. Um, that Rabbi Schwab really uh, I remember talking to him about teaching my daughter Harriet the Torah, and he was absolutely horrified at the 00:42:00thought. And I -- he said, "Why would you want to do that?" And I said, you know, we had a pretty good working relationship, he and I, and -- because I -- that's when I was the principal. And he -- and he said, "Why would you want to do that?" And I said, "Well, I think it just would make it more meaningful for her if she, you know, was able to, you know, follow and kind of had that extra knowledge." "Well the next thing you know, she's going to want to read Torah." And, you know, as far as he was concerned, that was just, you know, one of the -- the boundaries that he could not see being crossed. Um, when a number of people -- really, it was our -- sort of our peer group, who at the time were -- we were what, in our late thirties, into our forties, um, and our kids were -- were teenagers, uh, or soon to be teenagers, and we started, you know, talking 00:43:00about what we could do, for example, for girls to make it more meaningful for them, for -- to maybe make, you know, make the services more open, and uh, allow girls to -- to do more, and not necessarily cut them off as soon as they were bat mitzvahed. That was the other thing, the cutoff line was bat mitzvah, and then that was it. They got up on the bima to lead the Friday night services, and that was the end. Never again. And um, and other things, just to uh, you know, kind of broaden out, and uh, because there was that -- kind of that mood going through the American Jewish community. And in a lot of places and in a lot of ways, um, in the Reform movement, it was moving towards more traditional observances, you know, from what had been very -- in their definition, you know, 00:44:00very rigidly uh, you know, what they considered modern. And beginning to open themselves up to some of the customs and observances that they had kind of pushed aside. So there was -- there was just a whole new feeling, and um, and a group of us got together and we were just not happy with what was -- what was happening, and the kind of, not only the response from the rabbi, but then the response from the leadership of -- of the synagogue. There was a lot of bitterness at -- at that point towards us, because they felt that we were somehow stepping over our bounds, and there was very much a, sort of a climate that if the rabbi said this was the way it should be, that's the way it had to be. And so, we formed what we called a Havurah, with the idea that we would 00:45:00follow Conservative practice, but that we -- and by that time, the Conservative movement was counting women that we would be egalitarian, that we would be peer-led, that we would basically create our own -- our own way of expressing our -- our Jewishness. And um, so when we started, for example, Stanley put -- my husband put together a um -- and -- and my dad was very supportive of this, and he really was very helpful. Um, he sat down, Stanley had been uh, chairman of the religious committee at -- at Ohabei Zion so he, you know, was pretty familiar with the ritual and stuff. But he sat down with my dad and over a period of a number of days, in those early days, just my dad went through all 00:46:00the high holy day services, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, uh, you know, what you could do that would be, you know, that -- that was basic and important to keep in, what you could perhaps uh, alter a little bit, or change a little bit. The conservative movement had put out a um, uh, a machzor, the prayer book for the high holy days, for young people. For kids. And there were wonderful readings in it, and wonderful adaptations of the service. So we took stuff from there, we took -- used, you know, the traditional machzor, and put together Rosh Hashanah services and had Rosh Hashanah services, had Yom Kippur services, had our own break the fast, and it was um, and everybody -- everybody who came and 00:47:00was a part of it, and there were -- I don't remember how many there were to start, maybe 15, maybe 20 couples at the most, and not everybody was from the synagogue. There were people from the temple, who were affiliated with the temple, and there were quite a number of families, of young couples, who were here in Lexington, and were not interested in joining a congregation. They really came out of this um, you know, wave of -- of uh, anti-establishment feeling. And uh, a lot of them have since moved out of town, and any number of them are leaving lights in -- in the congregations now, they became leadership in the congregations, but this really brought them in. We also were very open to uh, people in mixed marriages, and we were also, at one point, we uh, were 00:48:00probably the first uh, congregation -- I mean, if -- if you want to characterize us as a congregation in the strictest sense of the word, what uh, to have a gay couple as membership. And they no longer live here, but they still talk about, when we have seen them and when people, you know, mutual um, friends have come back and forth or whatever, you know, we -- we still get very positive uh, feedback from them. It meant a lot, and they are very involved Jewishly, still, in their own community.

CRANE: What year was this? When?

SAXE: That this all happened?

CRANE: Mm-hmm.

SAXE: Let's see, the Havurah began in 19-- we had our 30-year anniversary what, about 7, 8 years ago? So in about 19-- in the 1970s, uh, I'd have to go back. 00:49:00Um, yeah, because let's see, '63, '76, '75. Right, oh and girls in the -- at Ohabei Zion had to be bat mitzvahed at age 12, not 13. So, let's see. When Harriet was bat mitzvahed, it was '75, and Natalie was '77. So it was right around '77, '78 that we started. And um, there -- for a time, we had um, there were a lot of families that came in that had little kids, and sort of the original core, our kids were all bar and bat mitzvah and beyond. So it wasn't so crucial for them, but um, there were quite a number of couples who joined, 00:50:00who had little children. And for a while, we ran our own preschool program. You know, I mean not a -- every day, but like a preschool Sunday school. And that was also with volunteers, and then it just got to the point where, you know, people ran out of steam and -- and resources, and the knowledge to really -- and motivation to go further. And that was a time when um, a lot of those younger couples who had not previously joined a congregation became affiliated with a congregation so their kids could go to religious school. It -- um, it was a significant time for them. And for their decision, some of them stayed with the Havurah, some of them left eventually.

CRANE: So there was like, dual membership of --

SAXE: Yeah, yeah. We never -- some of our early Ohabei Zion people resigned from the synagogue, but a bunch of us stayed affiliated. So it was not all of 00:51:00one or the other. There was a lot of anger at Ohabei Zion that we had done this, um, and uh, but very interesting, because it -- soon after that, Rabbi Schwab became too ill -- well, he was getting increasingly debilitated, and the congregation realized that they needed to make preparations for when he could no longer officiate. And started a rabbinical search, and I was actually on the search committee that chose Ori Smith. And I interviewed him down in Florida before they brought him up here to be interviewed here in Lexington. And it was -- the decision was that -- and by then, also interestingly, there were already 00:52:00the next wave of the sort of the next generation of families came along, and they had the same concerns that we did, it wasn't that we were so out of line, it was just that we happened to be the first. But, when the next group of young families came along and they were agitating for the same kind of thing, I think everybody realized that, you know, hey maybe, you know, we need to do something as a community, as a congregation. So, when the -- when we started the rabbinical search, it was with the understanding that whoever came in would be willing to have an egalitarian congregation, and that there would be this movement, this change, within the congregation. And I remembered interviewing Rabbi Smith in Florida, and talking about how, you know, what the expectations 00:53:00were. They wanted somebody who was traditional in the way he lead the service, but they wanted somebody who would be open to these changes. And um, and I must say that he was -- Ori Smith was very sensitive to that, and he came with a plan for how he wanted to transition, so that he would not offend Rabbi Schwab. He was very -- very sensitive to the fact that Rabbi Schwab had been the rabbi, and had these, you know, rules that he lived by, these standards that he lived by. Sadly, Rabbi Schwab died just about the time that Ori came. I, you know, it was just one of those things that happened. But, Ori really initiated, introduced, you know, training for the women, and counting the women in the minyan, and 00:54:00using women as part of the service. And I can still remember some of those early services at the old building, uh, on Maxwell Street, you know, when the women were beginning to do that, and it was -- it was a huge, huge step forward. And very emotional, I think, for a lot of women. And I found that true around the country. Um, when I uh, in the '80s, when I was the director for the Federation here in Lexington, and I would go to meetings for small community directors and things like that, you know, there were other communities, you know, going through similar -- not identical, but very similar kinds of experiences, and for women it was a very groundbreaking, very emotional time to suddenly find your status within Judaism changing.

CRANE: Judy, you really are a wealth of information.

SAXE: I'm sorry, what?

CRANE: I said, you really are a wealth of information. (laughter) Um, how has the Havurah changed over time in Lexington? Is it still active?

SAXE: Yeah.

CRANE: OK.

SAXE: The Havurah is still active, uh, we basically are aging in place. Um, over the years we had a lot of members who moved away. Uh, apart from people who, you know, still live in Lexington who were members and are no longer members. Um, at our peak we were probably about 40, 40 -- between 40 and 45 family units. Right now, we hover around -- around 30, between 30 and 35, probably low thirties. And that includes a lot of singles, um, we don't really have anybody now who has young children. Most of us are grandparents. Um, I'm 00:56:00just trying to think, you know, of everybody who's a member. Uh, we still, you know, are -- have adult children, certainly. Um, and we keep talking about what's going to happen, you know, because we -- and we'll get occasional, somebody will come into town, move into town, and, you know, who wants -- who's attracted by the kind of uh, structure we have which is, you know, pretty loose, but it's there. I mean we have officers, we try to meet at least once a month, we uh, we've had to make adaptations as we've shrunk. Uh, you know, for instance, on the high holidays, we do two days of Rosh Hashanah services, and generally a portion of our members go to their respective congregation. You 00:57:00know, congregational buildings on the first day, come the second day, or vice versa. So, we're never sure if we're going to have a minyan, although so far, we have. But, the people who -- those of us who are part of it, and not all of them are, you know, from the original group, quite a number have passed away. Even so, there's -- there's a lot of loyalty. And it's very special, because it's so small. And interestingly, a lot of big congregations, particularly um, in the Reform and Conservative movements, uh, have started Havurah within -- within the congregation, so that there will be a group that -- of young families, for example, that, you know, have kids about the same age, and they'll meet for Shabbat dinner instead of going to the synagogue, or they'll have extra 00:58:00celebrations or whatever. Um, but that's had mixed success. So, we um, we still -- we still meet. We have -- once a year, we have an education retreat that is uh, probably why uh, you know, a certain portion of people stay as members, because even through much heartrending, soul searching, we've just decided that it should be for members only. We did agree that people could invite at least one or two guests uh, last year, and, you know, really ended up that it was still our same core. And we bring in -- we pay minimal dues, because we don't have a building, we don't have a rabbi. And um, so we -- the money that we accumulate, we use, you know, for something like edu-- an 00:59:00educational program. And we usually have some pretty -- pretty neat stuff.

CRANE: Hmm. Um, to the best of your ability, how did your children, not that we know what our children's thoughts and feelings are all the time, but how did your children feel about their Jewishness in Lexington?

SAXE: Um, hmm.

CRANE: Did they maybe describe any experiences with anti-Semitism in Lexington? Um, like what was the non-Jewish community's reaction to them being Jewish?

SAXE: The girls really didn't, I don't think much. Neil had um, was uh, was -- was a soccer player, and he went out for soccer at his high school, and ran into a coach -- well, they -- they prayed before every game. And he wouldn't pray. (laughter) And the coach got very angry, and supposedly said something, alluded 01:00:00to his being Jewish. Uh, Stanley went over, had a talk with the coach, who said, "No, no, no, you know, just" -- but he felt that -- that, you know, Neil wasn't showing respect, and whatever, whatever. And he dropped out of soccer. Um, at -- at the high school. There also, um, I think probably Natalie and Neil both, in terms of their high school experience especially, you know, the whole -- well, I -- wait, I take it back. When Natalie was six years old, and in first grade, um, you know, there's a lot of Christmas that goes on in the schools. You know, and supposedly it's not religious, it's all secular stuff. But, uh, there's a lot of holiday stuff that goes on. And um, she uh, clearly 01:01:00felt it, I -- I wasn't even as aware of it, but her teacher told me that uh, she -- she was doing some assignment at her desk, and -- and the teacher walked over, and it was the first African-American teacher at Glendover School, and really a terrific gal. And clearly very sensitive to minority issues, and she said there was Natalie, saying something like um, happy, happy, I don't know if it was Chanukah or whatever, and yucky, yucky Christmas. So, you know, clearly there was -- there was a consciousness about it. And when Neil was in second grade, his teacher had been -- was really known in the school as somebody who went all out with Christmas decorations, and put up a lot of religious pictures, you know, the -- the Virgin Mary, and all that kind of stuff. So, Merle 01:02:00Weckstein and I went over to talk to um, the teacher. Well we talked to the principal, and we talked to the teacher, and uh, she said well, you know, this is uh, something about uh, this is fine art that I'm putting up. That was it. "This is fine art." You know, it was some -- like a Rembrandt or a Reubens or something, of some saint. And we said, "Well then why couldn't you put it up in, you know, show, do it a -- a section on fine art in March?" And she said, "Oh but then it wouldn't be the right time of year." (laughter) So, you know, there -- there was stuff like that. But the -- but they really, I think, were pretty firmly -- had a pretty firm sense of themselves as Jews. Because I also um, uh, you know, they -- there were discussions, certainly when they were in 01:03:00high school, there were some discussions about holiday observance, and I know that -- that the kids spoke up in class. I mean, they were not afraid to uh, or reluctant, you know, to -- to talk about how they felt and what they thought was right. So, I think they all came through it with a pretty strong -- strong sense of identity.

CRANE: What supports or challenges were there in raising your children Jewish in Lexington?

SAXE: Wait, say that again?

CRANE: What supports and challenges were there in raising your children Jewish in Lexington?

SAXE: Oh, support and challenge?

CRANE: Yeah.

SAXE: Well, I think the uh, the Jewish community in general, and I think Ohabei Zion in particular, had -- was a -- is a -- it was and is a very close community. Um, now that our kids are out of -- out of Lexington, and we're 01:04:00older, and we're not around as much, you know, we're not as involved, but it was very much a part of our lives. And there was a lot of support, and the other kids, whether they -- whether they loved each other, you know, there weren't very many of any age group, so whether they loved each other so much or not, it didn't matter. But there was still that -- there was a bond. And the parents, you know, there was a lot of support, uh, at the parent level. And just at the congregational level. Um, so that was -- that was very good. The other thing was really -- there were a couple of other things. One was that my parents were just uh, you know, that it was because um, they were so positive -- Jewishly identified in a very positive way, that was really part of my kids', you know, environment, and their -- their life experience. Um, I think that the 01:05:00challenges were, which -- which I had growing up too, in -- in Wisconsin, because it was a, you know, small Jewish community in a, you know, very much a very small minority. Um, you know, almost everybody you know is not Jewish. And you're sort of the novelty if you're Jewish. And um, so, you know, what happens when they -- when they get to dating age, when they uh, when there are uh, activities that happen on Shabbat? Or even more significant, during the major Jewish holidays? Um, you know, always going through the issue of uh, teachers giving tests on Rosh Hashanah, you know, that kind of thing. Um, or other holidays when some of the more observant kids were staying home. Um, so that's always a challenge. And um, I think -- you know, I really, I -- I -- 01:06:00I'll have to ask my kids sometime how they felt about it in retrospect. Um, I think Neil, the youngest, was the most of -- of the three, um, was the most assertive about his being Jewish, and the most sensitive to uh, things that were going on in school, or in the broader community that were um, you know, sort of uh, you know, expressing the Christian spirit as opposed to a -- a nonsectarian holiday kind of a -- a feeling. But, you know, they all came through it. (laughter) Fortunately, I mean, or not everybody does, but -- but our kids, our kids really, really did, in -- in the sense that I think they still have that -- 01:07:00that sense of identity.

CRANE: How does your relationship to Jewish identity, uh, compare to that of your children's now?

SAXE: Oh, I -- I'm probably more -- more um, more active in -- in observances than any of them are. And I -- I don't think of myself as a particularly um, observant person in the sense of, you know, sitting down to Shabbat dinner every Friday night or, you know, whatever. But I'm prob-- probably more involved than they are, although um, my oldest granddaughter, interesting, um, my daughter-in-law ended up, they're -- they live in a very small community up in northwestern Washington. And um, my daughter-in-law, who grew up in -- was born 01:08:00in the States, but grew up in Israel, has ended up teaching Hebrew at the Hebrew school there. And my granddaughter, for her last two years of high school, was actually a teaching assistant in the Hebrew school, and in the Sunday school there. So um, uh, they're -- they sort of got pulled into it willy-nilly. (laughter)

CRANE: It works. I know that you've been very involved with Hadassah. Both at the local and the national level. Um, if you could briefly explain what Hadassah is, and tell me about your involvement with Hadassah, both locally and nationally, um, when you got involved and why. And you certainly have a strong Zionist background, from your family. Um, but if you could just speak a little bit about that.

SAXE: Uh, OK. So, when I was a kid, I was involved in Young Judaea, which um, very peripherally, I knew had some support from Hadassah. When I was in college I, you know, spoke about my college involvement, and I knew that there was some support. I knew that my -- my mother and my -- and her mother were -- and other Jewish women in Madison, you know, were -- were active in Hadassah, and I remember, you know, going, they would have uh, these mother child luncheons, you know, things like that. So I remember that, but by the time I got into high school, and even college, it was like that was, you know, something my mother did that my grandmother did when she was alive, and, you know, wasn't for me. And it wasn't until we came to Lexington, um, and that was part of what was so nice about the Lexington Jewish community. Every -- every Jewish women's 01:10:00organization, the two sisterhoods from the Temple Adath Israel and Ohabei Zion, and Hadassah, and at that time, the um, the -- oh, oh, um, I'm all of a sudden blocking. Um, but another women's organization that's not here. But every um, I'll remember it in -- in a minute. But anyway, uh, they would -- everybody that they could identify as newcomers, all the women, each of the organizations would have a luncheon in August or September, around the time of the -- the holidays, working around the holidays. And each organization had uh, one week of the month, you know, uh, Hadassah was, I remember the -- the programs were the first week of -- the first Wednesday of the month, the Synagogue Sisterhood was, I think, the second Tuesday of the month. You know, it was that kind of thing. And, but all the young -- the new women that came in were invited to an 01:11:00opening luncheon by each of the organizations, and um, as -- as guests. And each -- each one had a, you know, would have some kind of a special program. But the idea was to welcome them, to introduce them to the Jewish community, and to get to know them. I -- you know, it just was this wonderful, warm kind of reception. So, um, it was a natural for me to gravitate toward uh, toward Hadassah, because of its strong Israel orientation and, you know, the Sisterhood at Ohabei Zion because we joined Ohabei Zion. So, when I be-- so, and then my mother, who I think probably thought that we had really gone out into the -- the boonies, and, you know, what -- whatever was going to happen to our Jewish lives, uh, enrolled me as a life member in Hadassah. And I didn't think much of 01:12:00it as -- at the time, but uh, I got involved, there -- Marilyn Moosnick was president of the chapter at the time, and she was, you know, very dynamic, very attractive, very appealing. But there was a whole group of women who uh, were -- were really just, you know, also equally involved and committed. I mean, everybody from Hannah Levi, who was one of the founders back in the late '30s, to people like Betty Rosenberg and Frankie Yeaties and um, I'm trying to think of some of the others. Um, you know, just who I considered older women. (laughter) But they were very, very welcoming, very accepting, and um so, you know, if you showed any interest, they were very quick to mentor you. So, that 01:13:00was on a local level that it was very easy for me to get involved in Hadassah. And on a more universal level, the idea that we supported um, the -- the medical center in -- in Israel, that we supported Youth Aliyah which had always been very much present in my life. My dad really was strongly committed to Youth Aliyah, and used to do a lot of speaking and fundraising for them. And that was basically a Hadassah project. And uh, just -- just the whole concept of what Hadassah stood for. Um, and then as I got more involved and started to be on the local chapter, and be -- and began to get involved in the region, which was at the time, Ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia. Uh, and meet, you know, meet other women, it just, it was just a wonderful other community of women and through -- 01:14:00especially in the '70s, as the women's movement began to emerge and, you know, become very vocal and very prominent, Hadassah really went along with it. So, a lot of my um, evolution of -- in terms of -- of feminism. You know, my own personal feminism really came through Hadassah. Um, we had a great women's discussion group here for many years, we had some really interesting seminars on a regional level, and then um, I went to my first national convention in 19-- I think it must have been 1971. And that was not only because it was a very exciting, you know, really to see thousands of women, and all working for the same thing, but, you know, uh, just by chance, met people who had connections to 01:15:00my family. I mean, my parents and so on, and so, it was a whole construct, and in 1970, in 1955, '56, when I was there for -- in Israel for the year studying, um, the original Hadassah Hospital was lost, was -- Israel lost access to the original Hadassah Hospital because the uh, Jordanians, uh, conquered the old city of Jerusalem, and the hospital was in the eastern part uh, beyond -- east of the -- the walls of the old city. And we did not have access to it. And Hadassah had to -- used just a whole smattering of buildings in the city in the west part of Jerusalem, uh, for clinics, until they could build a new medical 01:16:00center. In 1955, when I was there, uh, we went on a hike one day, a group of us, and the hike -- the leader said, took us to a spot outside of the city, and he said this is where there's going to be, they're building a new Hadassah Hospital. I knew about Hadassah, I knew about the medical work, and how it was all fractured and, you know, in different places. And he said, this is going to be the new hospital. And then in 1970, we came on -- my husband took a sabbatical, and we went to Israel, and he was teaching at the dental school at Hadassah. And at that time, it was the only dental school in the country, and lo and behold, there was -- here was this whole medical center, and this -- these -- in the hills, where I had been that used to be bare. I mean literally 01:17:00were bare, and here was this whole medical center. And it just was, you know, just was such an amazing emotional experience for me, and uh, you know, we got to meet people who were on the staff, and -- and it just -- just was a very unique thing. So, when I came back two years later, I became the chapter president, and that uh, meant that I was part of the region board, and then um, I became very active in the region, and ultimately became the region president, which made me a member of the national board. And that was in 1987. And uh, and I've been on the national board ever since, and it's -- it just um, you know, Israel -- Israel is very important to me. And I can -- and I, you know, 01:18:00clearly remember uh, the stories that came out of the Holocaust, and I very clearly remember when Israel became -- when the vote was help in the United Nations for partition, and sitting with my grandmother, and listening on the radio to the results of the vote. And I remember when the state was declared, and how important that was for us. So, each of these things uh, is very much a part of my -- the fiber of my being. And uh, Israel has remained that way for me, and I -- you know, now my brother lives there. And uh, his kids were born there. We have other uh, you know, some other family, we have a lot of friends. Uh, and uh, and I still -- you know, I still feel that the work that Hadassah does, that that um, not only that it benefits Israel, but that it really offers 01:19:00an opportunity for the Jewish community here to have a very real and practical bond with the state of Israel that is not just, you know, something that's -- that's in theory, but there's very -- their effects on the ground.

CRANE: Judy, it's my understanding that not just yourself, but um, others, that there's a -- a disproportionate amount of women involved in Hadassah at the national level from this Lexington chapter.

SAXE: (laughter).

CRANE: And I'm -- I'm just curious why you think that has happened, um, here? Why does Lexington produce such phenomenal Hadassah leaders?

SAXE: (laughter) Right, we go around --

CRANE: And maybe if you could even mention some of them, besides um --

SAXE: Oh, well yeah. Um, I think that -- that I think Marilyn Moosnick had a 01:20:00great deal to do with -- with what happened. But she wasn't alone. I mean there were -- there were people like --

CRANE: Right.

SAXE: -- Hannah Levi, there were people like -- I really need a -- a -- a directory to try and remember, but um, uh, the -- um, Esther Moskowitz, and Becky Golden, and you know, there just were -- yeah, you know, the old timers. Uh, and Frankie Yeaties, and Betty Rosenberg, and uh, I'm -- you know, just off the top of my head, I'm trying to think. Um, uh, who -- who worked, you know, some of them were presidents, some just worked, you know, as volunteers, um, you know, and I'm talking about a lot of these people who are no longer here, who have, you know, died, many years ago. But they -- there was that strong feeling 01:21:00of um, of purpose. And it kind of -- oh, Ellen Henson. You know, and Anita Baker, I mean it -- it really cut across all parts of the Jewish community. And whatever, you know, the -- the -- the separation between the Reform congregation and Ohabei Zion, whatever that was, Hadassah really bridged that. And um, so that was uh, so there was a strong core of support. So, Marilyn was a unique -- Harriet Cooper, you know, was somebody who, you know, was very involved. Um, but Marilyn was, you know, was a -- was a significant personality. I mean, her -- her whole -- the, you know, charisma that she had. But she really came out 01:22:00of a very supportive -- these women that I'm talking about, the older women, I mean they nurtured her, and supported her, it wasn't that she sprang out of nothing. There was a -- there was really a strong base of support, so that, you know, if she came up with an idea to do something, I mean, people came along and there were -- they would do other things, and -- and, you know, or build on what she had done. So, um, she wasn't fighting, you know, fighting against things, she really -- there was a very positive um, uh, climate. So, OK. So she became a region president. And that put her on the national board. And that was in 1970-- no, 1969. And then, we went off on sabbatical in 1970, Gail Cohen became president in 19-- of the chapter in 1970. And she also uh, you know, was -- was 01:23:00-- is particularly bright and capable, and she kind of got -- and when she became active on the regional level, she also became identified as somebody, you know, with terrific leadership qualities, and who could uh, really um, move into a -- a national position. So she was region president from '81 to '84. And that put her on the national board, and she's been on the national board ever since. And Marilyn, you know, was already on the national board and, you know, so on. And then, I became president in 1987. And so then there were three people from the -- on the national board from Lexington, Kentucky. Which really was unusual, as far as the national board went. Because the way they had 01:24:00representation at that time, the system of representation was such that if you lived outside of the New York metropolitan area, it was a relatively small number of women who could be on the national board at any one time. I -- I don't know, it -- it was um, you know, what it was, I guess we could have easily have not been reelected, because we had to go through election processes, I suppose we just as easily could have not been reelected. But I think we supported each other, I think that we got very strong support from our colleagues from our region. Um, it -- it just was a happenstance. Um, there's a funny story when -- Alex Cohen and Ross Moosnick are the same age, and they were in Israel on Young Judaea, the year -- of course, the same year. And what you -- what you did at the time, you spent a certain amount of time in Jerusalem 01:25:00having conventional -- pretty much a conventional academic track, and then there were -- there was a period of time, broken up into several segments, where you would live on a kibbutz, or live on a moshav or, you know, do something that related to some special interest you had. And it just happened by chance that first, I forget whether it was Alex who came first or Ross, but they both ended up with the same family at different times on a moshav. And the -- the moshav father was just amazed that there were -- here were two kids from a little, you know, town in -- in Kentucky. From the United States that, you know, he'd barely heard from. He said, it must be a hotbed of Zionism. (laughter) And so that became -- that sort of became our -- our mantra, you know, we're a hotbed of Zionism. And more recently, Lynn Ferness lives in Versailles, but, you know, 01:26:00it's really part of the Lexington chapter of Hadassah. So uh, you know, there are still three of us on the national board. Uh, and it -- and it is kind of unusual. But --

CRANE: It is.

SAXE: -- I think, I think we just, we've been very fortunate here, and what was a very positive supportive atmosphere. When we came in the -- in the '60s, has continued and I -- I really believe we are a very um, really a very special, it's a very special community, and it's a very special -- so as a result, Hadassah has really benefited from that. I mean, we've got -- again, it's women from across the whole community, um, we are by and large very supportive of each other. Um, whereas you get, in some communities, you know, people are just more 01:27:00interested in tearing each other down than building each other up. And this has been something that I -- I think has -- is at the core of this -- of this community.

CRANE: Judy, I know that um, you know, you come from a really significant Israeli background, you're -- you know, your family was born in -- you have family members that were born in Palestine, you've been actively involved in the Jewish community, significantly Hadassah, um, how has all this impacted your own personal views about Israel now, its politics?

SAXE: Good question. (laughter) Oh, I'll tell you what I tell a lot of my non-Jewish friends when they ask me. So, I believe in the state of Israel, and I believe that -- I believe -- just to the very fiber of my being, that it -- it 01:28:00is a homeland for the Jews. Whether -- whether I'm living there or not. And I -- you know, and I really believe that we have a right to be there. We -- we have a historic right. Do I always agree with the government of the state of Israel? No. Do I always agree with the government of the United States of America? No. Does that mean that I have given up my citizenship in the United States of America if there's a president or a political movement that's going on that -- that is uh, abhorrent to me? I do not. I believe very firmly that, you know, in -- in this -- that this is a democratic country, that we are a heterogeneous country, that despite some of the awful, hateful things that happen. That there is an underlying foundation that, you know, that -- that 01:29:00will -- will survive. And I really feel the same way about Israel. It really, it's -- it's not a -- it's not a democracy with the same kind of political structure that is here in the United States. But is it a democracy in the sense that there are citizens -- every citizen has rights? Yes. Is it a country where people can speak their minds? Very definitely. (laughter) Um, I think that sometimes, uh, because of that, um, you know, Israel gets -- gets a bad rep because you get extremist views there, just like you get extremist views here. Um, I think that um, both Jews and non-Jews are very quick to react -- to react to things that come out of Israel. Um, you know, it's sort of like a little 01:30:00tender spot that you have, like you have a little sort on your -- on your arm and you keep rubbing at it because it itches, or hurts or whatever. You know, and it's -- it's -- it's kind of there. But, um, it's -- it's a wonderful country. And they've taken in, I -- you know, if you look at the history of -- of Israel, and so many people who are quick to criticize it today have no sense of what the history of Israel is. I mean, listen there are a lot of Americans who have no sense of what the real history of the United States is, either. So, they, you know, they don't understand what that -- that there was uh, there was a community there before the state of Israel was declared, that there was, you know, a growing Jewish presence before Hitler, the rise of Hitler. That it wasn't -- yeah, did -- did the Holocaust have an impact on the ability uh, of 01:31:00the uh, the community there, the -- the Jews in Israel, to establish a state with support from the Western world? Yes, there -- there was that, it certainly had an impact, the reality, the Holocaust was just too horrendous for anybody to wrap their minds around. But, you know, then -- then Israel took in thousands of DPs. Israel took in thousands of refugees from Middle Eastern countries where the, the governments were -- were hostile to Israel and had attacked Israel, and they were either actively expelling the Jews, or um, doing -- you know, taking action against them. That meant that they -- they had to leave. Um, Israel has taken in Russians, Israel has taken in Ethiopians. They're still taking in Ethiopians, they're still taking in Russians. They're taking in the French now because there is a lot of concern about anti-Semitism in France. 01:32:00They've taken in thousands from South -- from the South American countries because there have been various waves of anti-Semitism in South America. You know, so it's a polyglot country, and depending on who's coming in when, you know, depends for example, the signs you see on the stores, they'll be in Hebrew and Arabic, when the Russians were coming, there was a lot of Russian, and a lot of signs in Russian. You still see a lot of that. Uh, you know, the Russians have really assimilated in terms of language. So on the -- they still are, you know, fairly significant um, national or ethnic uh, group, you know, and -- and have their own political uh, parties and issues. Um, similar things with the Ethiopian community. But, um, you know, Israel -- Israel, what, this is -- Israel is um, '52, so it's 67 years old. I mean, we're not talking about a 01:33:00country that's been around for thousands of years. And it's still evolving. Um, I -- I -- I'm not happy with the current government but, you know, I'm not a citizen. If I were a citizen, would I have voted for Netanyahu? Absolutely not. And I think that um, I think that -- that, you know, some of the things that have happened that are, you know, in terms of public relations for Israel's image, you know, that are negative, I think are, you know, you can lay at his feet. But, he also, you know, let's be realistic, he is -- among the right of center, he's probably among the more moderate. There are people who are way more right-wing. But, you know, there are also people in the center and to the 01:34:00left of center. And, you know, who are working to balance that. And uh, uh, you know, will there be changes? I think there will. Is it going to happen in my lifetime? Who knows. But when I was a kid, I never thought there would be a state of Israel, either. So.

CRANE: And there is.

SAXE: And there is. (laughter)

CRANE: Besides your involvement in Hadassah, I know that you've been very active with the Jew-- Jewish Federation. Without going into great detail, because I know you've done that in previous interviews, um, can you just share a little bit about what your role with the Federation has been over the years? Um, and -- and how it has changed over the years?

SAXE: Oh. Well, let's see. It started with the -- with Camp Shalom. Our famous uh, you know, the mother -- the mothers from the two Sisterhoods getting together and -- and starting um, Camp Shalom. And from that came uh, what we 01:35:00call the Jewish Community Association. Judy Levine was very, very much a leader in helping that to come about. And over a lot of objections from particularly the rabbis, because they saw this as somehow taking away from, you know, the -- the strength and the resources of the congregations, um, that quickly evolved and took over, and along with the camp, it -- it also absorbed the uh, Jewish Community Forum, which had been sort of a freestanding uh, but organizationally supported series of lectures. And uh, as -- and then, when the idea came about to really bring the campaign, which had been also a separate unit on its own, 01:36:00the UJA, United Jewish Appeal. And there were -- there was sort of a committee of -- of five men who um, whose -- who ran the United Jewish Appeal campaign here. And there were, you know, a lot of people who would help uh, you know supported it in terms of soliciting members of the community, Leon Cooper and Shelly Dare and David Weckstein, um, but who was -- was on the steering committee, I don't remember exactly everybody. But um, people like Stanley Rose and David Wheel, and um, probably um, you know, I -- I don't remember all of the others. But anyway, um, then the concept came about, you know, knowing that the Federations of North America existed, the idea of bringing the campaign and all 01:37:00of these elements together under one umbrella, and that was -- and Chuck Gordesky and Dave Weckstein were pretty instrumental in that, each being president of their respective congregations. And decided that this would be beneficial for the community, and uh, so Chuck was the first um, president of what was then the Central Kentucky Jewish -- became the Central Kentucky Jewish Association. And David was the second president, and then it went on, Judy Levine and Gloria, um, Katz, and Jack Miller. And not necessarily in that order. Um, and that was after the JCA, the Jewish Community Association, had been in existence for about six or eight years, and there had been a number of people, Gail Cohen had been a president and -- and Judy, and I mentioned Judy Levine, Mike Bayer, who doesn't live here anymore. And then, anyway, they 01:38:00started CKJA, and uh, for a couple of years, they had somebody working as kind of a secretary administrative assistant, out of her home, um, Kitzy Neuberger, who doesn't live here anymore. And then they decided that what they wanted to do was really establish an office and make it, you know, more of a functioning, you know, or conventionally functioning community organization, and also, affiliate with the federations -- Jewish Federations of North -- North America. And they wanted to hire somebody as a staff person. And that's where I came in. And uh, I applied for the job. It was a part-time job, I loved the idea, it was community organization work and that had been part of what I had trained in, 01:39:00in graduate school. And um, I got hired, and we set -- set up an office in a little building, office building off of Southland Drive, and hired a -- a secretary, and um, we were there for a couple of years, and then we moved over to Waller Avenue, into the basement of one of the buildings that was owned by Steve Caller and Irv Rosenstein. And then from there, we moved to Romney Road. And by then, I was still the -- I was still the um, director.

CRANE: How long were you the director?

SAXE: I started in -- pardon?

CRANE: How long were you the director?

SAXE: Uh, 1981 to 1986. Who were the presidents? Judy Levine and Jack Miller, and Gloria Katz were the presidents that I worked with. And um, and then we 01:40:00moved over to Romney Road into the -- a basement apartment of one of those buildings in back of Waller Pharmacy. And um, uh, and then um, and that's -- and I -- we were there, and I -- I must have been there for the better part of, at least a year. I mean, all these moves came pretty fast. Um, and uh, and then I stepped down. And so, it was -- it was an exciting time, because we uh, it was really beginning to run the campaign out of a central -- not just the idea of an office, but a central body, Earl Levi was the campaign chair when I began. And uh, his daughter Leslie was working for AIPAC, and so he initiated uh, a um, a one-day uh, trip to Washington D.C., to um, AIPAC trip, which was 01:41:00very exciting. And uh, subsequently we had at least three or four others. And um, you know, met with AIPAC, met with your Congress people, met with uh, heard from various Senators and Congressman speaking, met with AIPAC people, met with -- uh, visited the Israel embassy. Visited the Pentagon. I mean, it was um, really very interesting. AIPAC was able -- would basically set up these -- these trips, and it was really very -- very, very good, very educational. And then, ultimately, really after my time, they uh, organized some missions to Israel. Uh, which was very -- we also adopted, during -- during my tenure, was 01:42:00um, uh, oh, the um, uh, another block. But a project in Israel to pair American Jewish communities with Israeli communities, and focus some of the fundraising on channeling money to these communities, which were basically disadvantaged. And uh, you know, some of the lower income neighborhoods, the immigrant neighborhoods that had never quite made it beyond a certain level. And we paired with Louisville on a -- on a neighborhood in -- in Netanya. Um, so we did that, I remember visiting the neighborhood, and meeting some of the people, it was pretty neat. And um, uh, anyway, it was -- it was an exciting time, because we were growing, you know, the -- we -- the um, Jewish Community Forum 01:43:00really petered out, because speakers became way too expensive for us. What we used to be able to get people for, you know, $500, maybe $1,000, you know, all of a sudden, fees were going up to 5,000, and 10,000. We couldn't afford it. But uh, but we ran camp, you know, Camp Shalom. And um, was important. And the other big thing that we did was to initiate a Jewish family service, and hire somebody as a social worker. And Molly Schwab, Rabbi Schwab's daughter, was one of our first social workers. Um, and that was -- that was important. Because when -- when we -- when we started to talk about developing a community-wide Jewish organization, Sue Friedman, who really also deserves a lot of uh, 01:44:00recognition and acknowledgement, um, was really one of the -- also one of the leaders, and more than that, helping to formulate a direction. And one of the things she was concerned about was um, aging, people who were aging in the community, and meeting their needs. And we um, carried out a -- a survey of every older Jewish adult we could identify in the community. This was in the early '70s. The interesting thing, not long after the camp was established, and so this was sort of the next project. One of the interesting things we discovered at that time was basically, almost every older Jewish adult at that time was from Lexington and had family here. And did not express any need for 01:45:00any kind of outside help, because their families were here to take care of them. I mean, you know, look at your family, or look at um, or the Himesons, or -- or all the Levis or, you know, whoever it was. There was a whole family network and that's who took care of them. And it really wasn't until really in the '80s, when I was the director that we began to find older adults who had either come here to be with their children, for instance who had come to the university, and then the kids left, the children -- the son or daughter left, and the older parent was still here, often in a nursing home or needing extra assistance of some kind. And -- or there were even some notably, some older people who had come here because the University of Kentucky offered the Donovan Scholars program, and they saw this as a good place to retire, and all of a 01:46:00sudden, we had older adults who were in need of care, support, whatever it was. And they didn't have that family network. So that was one element. There also were the Russians, we started the Russian -- the program of bringing in Russians at that time. Uh, there were families who needed assistance and support, so that was another element. Not, you know, not large numbers, but still in all, they needed -- they needed help. And then, we began to, you know, as -- as we began to offer these kinds of services, all of a sudden, there were -- not all of a sudden, but gradually, I should say gradually, there were people who really needed other kinds of social services, whatever it was. I mean, we went through a time when I was still working, when there were any number of families who were looking to adopt, and one of the things that I was doing was helping to find 01:47:00sources for them, resources for them to go to, to, you know, have -- carry out an adoption. I didn't do that myself, but, you know, at least to help them find those resources. Uh, and uh, you know, so there were all these things that became apparent, that either had not been so apparent before, or because the community was, up until really, IBM and the university began to expand, had been, you know, so much a localized community. You know, these were families who came and established businesses, and sometimes uh, you know, it would go on for several generations or whatever, or even if they spread out into other things like say, you know, David Aidey, so Lewis had -- his son still had the, you know, the uh, whatever it was, you know, he did with the wholesale --

CRANE: Dry goods.

SAXE: Um, yeah, dry goods. Thank you. Um, you know, Mike became an attorney, and his David became a fireman. But, you know, they were still here. And um, all of a sudden we were getting families that came, like us and -- and all of, a lot of our closest friends, we banded together because we were here without our parents, and this is not where we were born and grew up, and -- but we all were about the same age, we all had kids about the same age, and it was a very natural bonding, and that was part of really what helped bring about Camp Shalom. You know, we saw a need for our -- our age group, our generation.

CRANE: Judy, I just recently read that the funding for the Federation has declined. And I also read that Judy Wartman, who is the present director, is moving, and there's going to be a search for a new director. Judy will 01:49:00certainly be missed, but um, can you just share your thoughts about why the funding for the Federation has declined, and what, if any, changes the Federation board may be looking for in a new director.

SAXE: I'm not totally certain why the funding has declined. I know that in the early years, certainly a significant part of fundraising was tied to Israel. And there were crises, the Six Day War, the Yom Kippur War, uh, the uh, bringing in the Russians, bringing in the Ethiopians, so there was a, you know, an emergent cause. Um, you know, so I don't know if it's because we don't have crises and to motivate people, that could be one thing. It -- I don't think 01:50:00it's one -- any one single thing, I think it's much more complex than that. I think that may be part of it. I think that a lot of the younger generations don't -- just don't see this as a significant um, uh, target for their -- their philanthropic giving. I think that um, some of the wealthier, the older wealthier families who gave significantly, um, are no longer with us. Um, I think that some of the wealthier families who are with us, um, just don't see this as a priority. They don't have that attachment. On the other hand, there 01:51:00are some of the wealthier families who do give significantly, but not enough of them. In a bigger city, um, you know, and I um, have spent a -- I know people in Boston, for instance, who are very involved with the Fed -- their Federation, and what goes on in, for my own professional experience, even though it's in the past, um, you know, you get -- you have people who can afford to give significantly. And I mean, in the hundreds of thousands, or the millions. And um, they have to be courted, they have to be developed. Um, I think that some have been, some have just held themselves -- very consciously, have held themselves apart. Um, and it's -- it's a real -- it's a real problem. I think 01:52:00also, it's very difficult to get people to volunteer to do some of the hands-on kinds of work that -- that our -- my parents were doing that we were doing, that, as the generations have gone on, they've moved away from that. Um, it's very hard to get people to volunteer to solicit. Um, and when you do, um, you know, we -- even though we try, for example, here, uh, in Lexington, to reach out to everybody we possibly can. You know, if you get somebody to commit at 18 or $36, that's wonderful because they feel that they're a part of it, and we want them to feel that way. But, 18 and $36 is not going to do it. You need tens of thousands of dollars to really make it go, and you need -- you need a -- 01:53:00a core of people. You know, in the -- for a community the size of Lexington, you need, in the tens of people who do that. In the bigger cities, you have hundreds. And we don't -- and we don't have one -- the closest we probably have had is somebody like Steve Kahler, who has that kind of depth of commitment and feeling about it. And um, he's not around as much anymore, um, his -- his peers are not necessarily um, participating at the same -- at a similar level. Um, and, you know, you get retired faculty people like us, and, you know, we -- I 01:54:00would say from what I know, we -- we probably do OK in terms of what we contribute. But um, you need a lot more -- I don't think um, a lot of our peers do that as well. And um, and it's -- so it's tough. It's very tough. And as a result, the money that we give to Israel, and Israel causes, or causes beyond the local Jewish community, has declined. And, you know, it's kind of a catch-22, so then it isn't something you go to somebody and say listen, you know, we're giving to -- in the old days, um, um, uh, what's his name? Wheel. Not David. Um, Herschel. Herschel Wheel, you know, had um, was a farmer. He 01:55:00-- he raised sheep. He sold -- he was a significant purveyor of wholesale lamb meat, right? And when -- and when they had this old UJA committee, one of the things they gave to was the Jewish Farmers of America. Because that's what Herschel wanted, you know? Well, he participated and he was very generous, but by golly, some of that money went to the Jewish Farmers of America -- or it was Jewish Future Farmers, I don't -- you know, but it was that kind of a thing. And we don't -- we don't raise enough money to do that kind of thing, and some of the -- and I don't, I'm not sure that we have people in the community who would up their participation or become more involved if -- if we did. I don't 01:56:00know if they have that sense of, you know, what's beyond -- beyond Lexington.

CRANE: Interesting. OK Judy. Um, you've seen a lot in Lexington, you've been really active in several organizations, in the synagogue, in the Havurah and Hadassah, and uh, the Federation, and if you could just -- leadership roles that various people have had, if you could somehow, sum up how -- what you see as the changes that you've witnessed in Lexington, Jewish community, over the years. Has it changed?

SAXE: Oh yeah.

CRANE: And what do you see as the most significant?

SAXE: Um, OK. So, when we came it was a very small, fairly inbred Jewish community, but very, very close. I've talked about this, you know, very close, I felt very warm and supportive. Um, we've grown, so that um, none of us really know everybody in the Jewish community anymore, even -- even if I probably never knew everybody, I certainly felt as if I knew almost everybody. And um, uh, so we're -- we're bigger, we're not huge, we're still a small Jewish community, but um, I think being bigger, that it's a little more diffuse, because I think that even with the Federation, even with an organization like Hadassah, or even B'nai Brith, which struggles to, you know, keep going and really also reaches out 01:58:00beyond the congregational boundaries. It's very -- it's -- it's a challenge to reach out and connect with all these people. Um, so I think that's a change. I think um, you know, that -- and on the other hand, there are ways in which we're more sophisticated. Um, you know, as -- as with being able to offer professional Jewish social service uh, resources. Um, we um, I think there's still -- there's still a strong thread of -- of support, mutual support. Um, you know, where do we -- where do I see it now? I see it sadly, when I go to funerals. And you, you know, you see -- see that cutting across lines that 01:59:00people really care enough that they reach out. And it's not only funerals, but it's the care and support for the -- for the family members that are left behind. And I see it on, to a certain extent, with some of our older community members who um, you know, are in need of support, supportive services. And the fact that it's not simply turned over to a social worker, but that there are volunteers in the community who still feel that they want to reach out and do something in that way, I think it's um, just as a general comment, not even so much about Lexington. Um, but true heroes, well people get a lot more satisfaction out of being able to do something hands-on. Now they may be very selective about what they're -- what they're going to do, but that's very 02:00:00meaningful. So, you know, I -- as I think about it, for example, we -- which is something that has changed, and I think for the better, you know, that publicizing to the community that we go to help stock um, the shelves at -- at God's Pantry, that um, the temple uh, provides a lot of support to uh, one of the local, you know, nearby elementary schools, as does the synagogue, doing the backpack -- backpacking things. So, um, I think we are trying, as a Jewish community to um, you know, while -- while we retain our Jewish identity, to really also be a part of the community at large. It brings challenges. One, I was interviewed, what is it now, about 20, 25 years ago. And the question was, do you think it's easier to be Jewish now than it was 50 years ago? Well, you 02:01:00know, that was, we're talking, back in the '20s, '30s, '40s, 50 years ago. And there was a lot of anti-Semitism visible, expressed anti-Semitism in this country. And certainly in Europe, and um, so, you know, people said it -- the saying was in Yiddish, "It's hard to be a Jew," because you were constantly afraid that you were going to be attacked in some way, and you certainly, you know, were -- were limited in what you could do professionally because there were laws, or quotas, so that you couldn't just apply to any university or go to any school. In some ways, and my -- my reaction at that time was, I think it's harder today, because you really have to work harder to retain your Jewish identity, because there aren't the restrictions on your movement, on your choice 02:02:00of professions, on your choice of a mate, on your whatever it is, on how you behave. You can do -- do whatever you want. So I -- to get back to the Federation, I think it's a struggle for the Federation as well, in a sense, an institutional struggle, to create and maintain that identity as a central address for the Jewish community, and in a positive way that will help it to not only continue to exist, but to grow and to develop and to evolve as the needs -- as the needs evolve. Did I make sense? (laughter)

CRANE: Yes. Looking back, what if anything would you change about your relationship with Judaism, if there's anything?

SAXE: Hmm.

CRANE: Would you do anything differently?

SAXE: I've said this a lot in recent years, I probably would have become a rabbi. (laughter)

CRANE: Wow.

SAXE: I -- you know, when I -- when I graduated from college, basically women -- you know, not every woman, obviously, but, you know, the most common thing for women to do, you became a nurse or a teacher, or a social worker. Um, you know, it wasn't as common for women to be working outside the home, it was really sort of at the beginning of that. I remember a classmate of mine, and -- at um, Brandeis who was a really good mathematician, and she was going into some of the early um, developing work with computers about which I knew absolutely nothing. But, uh, you know, or -- or you might go into some sort of an academic, maybe higher level academic role. But the seminaries weren't taking women in those days. It was only after we were here in Lexington, I remember 02:04:00when Sally Prizand -- Prizand, graduated from Hebrew Union College up in Cincinnati, and it was such a big deal. And then, the struggle until the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is Conservative, began to accept women. Um, and I don't know, a few years ago, I thought if things had been different then, I very probably would have applied to a rabbinical school. And because it really combines all these things that I like, working with people, um, within a Jewish context. Um, educating, not -- not so much the structured schoolroom kind of thing, but, you know, in a broader sense. So, I guess that -- that would be a change.

CRANE: Well Judy, it has been wonderful chatting with you. And before we end 02:05:00this interview, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to share that I've not asked you about, that you think would be important for us to know?

SAXE: Oh gosh. (laughter) This has been a -- a really, I've enjoyed this, because it's been very thought provoking.

CRANE: Me too.

SAXE: Um, no I really --

CRANE: Think about --

SAXE: -- at this point, I guess -- I guess the only other thing I would say is that, um, you know, we came here by chance, and it has turned out to be a very good choice. And uh, we never expected to be here more than three or four years, you know, and here we are 50 -- 53 years later. And um, it's -- it's been a good, good place to grow and mature, and to live.

CRANE: Thank you. Those of us that were already here were delighted you came.

SAXE: (laughter).

[END OF AUDIO FILE]