Interview with Sandy Levy, April 11, 2016

CRANE: For official purposes, today is April the 11th, 2016. And my name is Janice Crane and I am part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored to be here today with Sandy Levy. Sandy and I are actually cousins. His grandfather was my great uncle and although we share some family history, I suspect that our experience and memories are quite different. In fact, I'm looking forward to having Sandy fill in some holes for me as he shares his stories for others to hear. So let's begin. Since I know that Sandy's not your real name, for the record, what is your full name and when and where were you born?

LEVY: Sanford Elliot Levy. I was born, uh, uh, in Lexington at Good Samaritan Hospital.

CRANE: Okay. And I also know that neither of your parents are alive, but again for the record, what were their names and where were they from?

LEVY: Um, my mother's name was Shirley Betty Singer before marrying my father, Hyman Solomon Levy. Mom was from Cleveland. Uh, Dad was born in Lexington.

CRANE: Okay. Since both your paternal grandfather and grandmother were part of larger Jewish families and immigrated to this area, tell us their names and where they were from.

LEVY: Uh, Joe Levy, my grandfather, and, uh, to my knowledge, my grandmother, uh, whose, I guess, Americanized name was Jennie, uh, uh, was a Herman. And uh, I believe she was also from the same area in Lithuania, Pushelat.

CRANE: Okay. Did your parents' and your grandparents' names change when they came to America?

LEVY: Uh, as far as I know, on the, uh, Levy side, I believe it was, uh, Leggan 00:02:00or something like that.

CRANE: Ligum.

LEVY: Ligum. Sorry. And then Americanized to Levy. Um, my grandmother's side, uh, it was, I believe, [Baron?]. That was the story I was always told, and again changed to Herman to Americanize it.

CRANE: Hm. I once heard a story, um, that they were supposed to go to some place in Tennessee named--

LEVY: Her--

CRANE: --Hermain, Tennessee.

LEVY: Right. I heard it was called Harriman, but perhaps.

CRANE: Oh. Oh, I see. Harriman.

LEVY: Yeah, and, uh.

CRANE: Harriman, Tennessee--

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: --and that's when they changed it.

LEVY: Yep.

CRANE: Did your parents and your grandparents, um, tell you much about Pushelat?

LEVY: Honestly, I have very recollection, uh, of any stories, uh, either of them might have told me. Really, I think most information that I've gotten came 00:03:00from cousins of mine who did the research, Joe Miller being one them who really had great interest in it.

CRANE: I've heard that your grandfather, my great uncle Joe Levy, was the first of the Ligum-Levy family that came here from Pushelat. It was the shtetl in Lithuania and they came around the Bolshevik Revolution.

LEVY: That's the story--

CRANE: Okay.

LEVY: --I had heard.

CRANE: What do you know about how they and so many others from Pushelat came to this area? Why Lexington?

LEVY: Uh, honestly I, I really don't know why. Uh, you know, in my later years, I've come to look at it as possibly being just nothing more than a wives tale. I can't believe that half the community came from the same, uh, same tiny shtetl. Uh, I really don't have any information on that issue.

CRANE: I know you have a brother. Uh, what is his name and age related to you?

LEVY: Uh, my brother Paul Levy, uh, is, uh, three years my senior. Uh, he's lived in, uh, England, uh, in the Oxfordshire area for perhaps 50 odd years at this point.

CRANE: Um, I know that, um, he's quite well known in his area of expertise. And if you could share just a little bit about that, um, I've heard he was the original foodie?

LEVY: Uh, in fact, in 1984, he and Ann Barr collaborated on, uh, I believe it was called The Original [sic] Foodie Handbook, uh, and they made the tiny error of not copywriting the name foodie, the word foodie, and consequently it's now used generically. Uh, Paul's written, uh, many books, uh, relative to, uh, 00:05:00cooking, including, by the way, some on Kentucky cooking, which is kind of interesting. And his primary, uh, field is, uh, uh, that of, uh, the Bloomsbury circle. Uh, he's written books on Lytton Strachey, uh, G.E. Moore, and several others, uh, of the Bloomsbury circle.

CRANE: I know that among Paul's many journalistic pieces, he wrote a book about Lexington Jewish history. If you would, could you share with us just a very brief overview of that book and what might have prompted him to write it?

LEVY: I suspect Paul considers this to be his autobiography, uh, of his youth in Lexington. Uh, it, it's really very interesting because, uh, uh, reading the book the first time, uh, uh, I was--I thought the contrast in his view and mine, 00:06:00uh, were really, uh, startling. Uh, uh, I was always a really active kid, uh, probably one who should have been on Ritalin if they had it at the time, and I remember living on Arcadia Park, uh, North Arcadia. And between North and South Arcadia, we had this wonderful triangular piece of land and all the kids, uh, would have carnivals, and we'd play baseball, and football, and all sorts of sports, and my memories of that time of my youth, uh, were it was maybe one of the happiest times of my life. I had a great time, loved all those kids, loved the parents in the neighborhood. Paul, on the other hand, wrote about growing up on this street filled with ruffians, uh, and what a horrible time it was, 00:07:00and, uh, he was very, uh, surprised that he was able to escape the area.

CRANE: Wow.

LEVY: Uh, kind of the difference, I guess, between two bothers.

CRANE: That's pretty interesting. Maybe you were one of the ruffians, huh?

LEVY: I suspect I was. Still am.

CRANE: (laughs)

LEVY: I hate to brag. (laughs)

CRANE: Once upon a time, I know that you were married to Lou Ann Cassell--

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: --who's also from the Lexington Jewish community, who grew up with her many sisters in the pink house, now yellow, on South Hanover. And I know you and Lou Ann had children, so what are your children's names and the names of your grandchildren?

LEVY: Uh, uh, we have two children, uh, uh, Jennifer is the eldest. Uh, uh, she married, uh, Shawn Harmon. They have two children, uh, Miranda, who's seventeen and off to college this next year, and Christian, who is thirteen. Uh, Scott, our youngest, uh, married, uh, Colleen, uh--oh, that's terrible, I 00:08:00can't remember her maiden name. Uh, but they have two children, uh, Tommy, thirteen, Megan, who is nine now.

CRANE: Wow. Um, I also know that you we--you were remarried, but, um, don't recall her name. What was the name of your second wife and where was she from?

LEVY: Uh, Dana Gregory, uh, was actually her married name, uh, from her first husband, uh, and she was originally from--let's see, it's in New Jersey. Uh, Derry, Darien, I believe, New--uh, Darien, Connecticut, I'm sorry. Is that right, Connecticut? New Jersey? One or the other, I can't remember.

CRANE: Up east.

LEVY: Hm? Up east.

CRANE: Up east.

LEVY: Definitely.

CRANE: Okay. Before we get into your parents' occupation and or yours, let's 00:09:00talk some about the work that your paternal grandfather Joe Levy did, since he was both in the dry goods business and in the farming business. I read an article that Joe Miller, who you mentioned just a little--

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: --bit ago, one of your cousins, um, that he did several years before he passed about his maternal grandfather, Sam Herman, also from the shtetl in Lithuania, and in the article he stated that his grandfather was in the dry goods business with his brother-in-law. And I'm thinking that was Joe Levy, your grandfather, since he was married to Sam's sister, Yachna--

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: --or as some called Jennie.

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: Um, so what can you share about the Herman Levy business on Upper Street?

LEVY: Uh, my--my recollection is that it had primarily work clothes, uh, probably Levi jeans, things of that ilk. Uh, very, very small store, uh, wooden 00:10:00floors, uh, it had wooden tables, uh, and basically, I viewed it as, uh, a place where my grandfather, I guess, would work part--partially, and then go out to the farms, uh, and I remember as a child, my grandfather would, uh, put me in the truck, and it would take about forty-five minutes, uh, to drive from that area downtown, uh, to the farms, which, uh, now, of course, are a straight shot. Richmond Road becomes Athens Boonesboro, which leads to one farm that's currently, uh, at the intersection of I-seventy-five and, uh, Athens Boonesboro, and then going straight down Athens Boonesboro to the four-way stop where it intersects at Cleveland Road. And two more farms were, uh, uh--the first farm 00:11:00on the right on Cleveland Road behind the old Athens schoolhouse and church. Um, and he used to take me to the farm all the time. Uh, I really enjoyed it, uh, you know, my brother hated it, I loved it--(laughs)--so once again, the contrast.

CRANE: What, um--what happened to the store on--the dry good store on Upper Street?

LEVY: I--

CRANE: How did it get started? Do you know what they did when--

LEVY: --I--

CRANE: --they first--

LEVY: --I really--

CRANE: --came to America?

LEVY: --don't know how it started. The stories that I've heard, of course, were that, uh, my grandfather and I suspect his, uh, perhaps, cousins, in-laws, all had pushcarts, and, uh, were selling their wares off of the pushcart, and turned that into the store, the little purchase of, uh, farmland, et cetera, and, uh, 00:12:00that's how they, uh--that's how they began in America.

CRANE: Do you recall any other relative stores in that area?

LEVY: Uh, well, sure, you had Rosenberg's, of course, uh, uh, which was close by. Phillip Gall's across the street on--on Upper as well, um, and there were numerous stores up and down Main Street. There were, uh, ki--all owned by Jewish families, uh, generally, I think, in that--in that same area of time as a rule.

CRANE: How did Joe Levy go from the dry goods business in downtown Lexington to the cattle business south of town?

LEVY: Uh, again I am uncertain as to how--how this started. Uh, uh, one story that I recall, I'd heard from, uh, Joe, Joe Miller, was that, uh, the in-laws 00:13:00essentially traded farms. Uh, some had farmers near, uh, Winchester as I recall, uh, and somehow that's how we ended up with the, uh, uh, Joe Levy Farms in Lexington. Uh, I really don't know the voracity of any of those stories.

CRANE: Who else was involved besides your grandfather in the farms?

LEVY: Uh, well, of course, my father, uh, was involved, and, uh, you know, and after my grandfather, uh, really became ill, my father took over the maintenance of the farms. Uh, we always had, uh, a farm manager, uh, who lived on the premises, and, uh, he was really the person responsible, uh, for the day-to-day activity.

CRANE: And what--what were the day-to-day activities on a cattle farm in Lexington--(laughs)--Kentucky?

LEVY: Well, uh, it was not only, uh, as it were, running the cattle, but also, uh, growing the feed for the cattle, uh, corn and so forth. Uh, we grew tobacco as well, and, uh, as near as I could tell, that was probably an eight to ten hour a day job and, uh, likely seven days a week.

CRANE: What happened to the cattle?

LEVY: Uh, eventually, uh, and this was long after my father died and I was managing the farms, uh, uh, it reached the point that, uh, we had to make a decision on how to r--how to maintain the herd, uh, effectively, uh, uh, by the time we reached the third generation, and that would be me. Uh, as an example, my share of the farm was, I think, 13.5 percent. So we had ownership, uh, 00:15:00ranging from cousins in California, uh, to of course my brother in England, and, uh, everyone had an opinion, but the greatest opinion was how do we, uh, get more money out of this. Uh, so effectively we decided, uh, at a late point in time, that it was time to call the herd, uh, reduce, uh, some of the expenses, increase the income, and by that, really, uh, created, uh, I guess, an infusion of capital. Uh, combined with that, we had the issue of tobacco. Uh, uh, I for one wanted to eliminate the tobacco crop. Uh, tobacco was still being subsidized at that point, and, uh, I had a lot of resistance, uh, from some of 00:16:00the cousins because tobacco was a good cash crop, and also resistance from the, uh, tenant farmer, the manager, uh, in that he was--he considered himself a tobacco farmer and really was reluctant to look into, uh, uh, crops that could have been more profitable that might have required a few years of growth in order to create that profitability.

CRANE: How many acres were these--where--there were three farms?

LEVY: There were three farms, two of which, really, were the working farm. Uh, uh, the one on Athens Boonesboro, as I recall, was 225 acres. The larger farm on Cleveland Pike, uh, behind the old schoolhouse was probably in the 260 or seventy range. And then, uh, we had a thirty-five acre farm that was down the road and that was used primarily, uh, uh, occasionally just to, uh, run cattle, 00:17:00uh, for extra feed and so forth on occasion.

CRANE: Were the cattle sold?

LEVY: The cattle were eventually sold. We disbanded, uh--dispersed the, uh--the entire herd, it's--at one point, uh, uh, when we knew that it was time to start selling the farms. Um, and prior to that, we'd really reduced 'em. Uh, when my grandfather was in charge, we started raising purebred, uh, cattle, which also required, uh, registering the cattle, and paying fees, and, uh, there was a determination during my father's regime that this was an unnecessary expense, so, uh, they were no longer considered, you know, we no longer raised them as purebred cattle.

CRANE: During the years that the farm was operated by your grandfather, um, 00:18:00there was also a local kosher butcher on Fourth and Upper Street named Harry Goller. Um, if there was one, describe the connection your gra--grandfather's cattle farm had with the kosher butcher. Um, if any of the cattle that, um, Joe raised were sold as kosher meat, how did this happen?

LEVY: To my knowledge, none was ever sold as kosher meat. Uh, I don't believe Mr. Goller ever processed any meat in his store. Uh, uh, to my knowledge, uh, and again, you know, I was a kid going into that--that store, and, you know, the main--main thing I remember would be all the salamis--(laughs)--hanging from the ceiling, and, uh, uh, you know, I remember lots of chickens--(laughs)--but beyond that, I, uh, I doubt that anything was ever done. Uh, any cattle we ever slaughtered, uh, went to, uh, uh, a local butcher, and, uh, that was--those were 00:19:00few and far between.

CRANE: So you didn't actually slaught--you--the cattle, you sold to other people, to a slaughtering--

LEVY: Um, yeah, or they would go to market, uh.

CRANE: Oh, I see.

LEVY: Yeah, uh, and, yeah. Again, to produce income.

CRANE: Um, in doing some research about your family, I noticed that Billy Golton, your dad's--I hope I get this all right. Your dad's sister Becky's son, and Jerry Moskovitz, and his mom, Esther, who was also one of your dad's--

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: --sisters, were listed as principals of the farm corporation. However, there were a few names that I'm not familiar with. One was Marvin--

LEVY: Kraus.

CRANE: --Kraus?

LEVY: Um-hm.

CRANE: --and the other was Michael--

LEVY: Oestreicher.

CRANE: --Oestreicher. Who are they and how are the connected with the--

LEVY: Uh--

CRANE: --farm?

LEVY: Well, they are, uh, Jennie Kraus' offspring, or actually, uh, grand--uh, Marvin is the son, Mike Oestreicher is the son of, uh, oops--a senior 00:20:00moment--Ruthie. Ruthie was married to, uh, Bob Oestreicher, uh, who died very, very, young. Uh, they had three children. Mike was the eldest. He's an attorney in Cincinnati currently. He has two sisters, uh, Terry and Nancy. Um, on the other side, Marvin Kraus, uh, is the offspring of Jennie and, uh, Max Kraus as well, and, uh, he had--sorry, where am I now? I'm with Marvin. Marvin and Ruthie, uh, each had, uh, children. Marvin has three children, all boys, and unless I'm mistaken, he's got at least one rabbi in the bunch and perhaps 00:21:00two, or perhaps one is married to a rabbi, I'm uncertain of that.

CRANE: And was Jennie--

LEVY: Jennie was the eldest, uh, of--of Joe and Jennie, or Yachna's, offspring. Uh, it was Jennie, Rebecca, uh, Esther--I'm sorry, my father, and Esther was the baby.

CRANE: I see. Okay. Um, share whatever you--some of your fondest memories of the farm that you can remember.

LEVY: Well, that's, uh--(laughs)--

CRANE: As a young boy, what did it look like? What do you remember?

LEVY: Well, you know, the one thing that I definitely remember, of course, would be the cattle because, you know, just being a kid, I loved the cattle. Uh, lots of chickens running around all the time, you know, and I'm sure as a toddler, I was likely chasing all the chickens and so forth. Uh, but, uh, I can 00:22:00remember, uh, the story of the one, uh, bull, uh, who they kept separated, who they called Poor Boy. Uh, he was really a monstrous thing, and I don't know, uh, uh, you know, exactly how many progeny he had, but, uh, I always wondered why they called him Poor Boy. And our tenant farmer, who's name was, uh, Fred Basler,uh, educated me on that, uh, when I was probably six years old, uh, by saying, "Well, we call him Poor Boy because if you look underneath, Sandy, you' can see what--what he's dragging on the ground."--(laughs)--and I looked down, and of course the poor bulls' testicles were always hitting the rocks and everything--(laughs)--and as he walked. Uh, you know, so that--I mean, I had some interesting, uh, memories--(laughs)--as a kid, and that's certainly one of them at that age.

CRANE: Um, that's a pretty good story.

LEVY: Oh, yeah. Ha.

CRANE: Okay. At what point in time did your family go from the cattle business to the retail business and how did this trans--transition take place?

LEVY: Well, the story that I heard, uh, as to my father, was that perhaps out of UK [University of Kentucky], he became perhaps a dairy farmer. Now I don't have any recollection of any of that, nor do I recall any stories, uh, again, I may have attributed this to Joe Miller. Um, evidently, he was not successful, and, uh, he got into the retail business, uh, opening the shoe department at, uh, Meyers' in downtown Lexington. Uh, he leased that department for years and years, and, uh, from the point, uh--I guess he must have been successful enough 00:24:00in that business that that led to the opening of, uh, Welgo, uh, along with two other original partners, uh, in 1951. And Welgo, uh, was the first freestanding store not in the downtown area in Lexington. Uh, uh, evidently, uh, I gather, if given a choice, the downtown, uh, merchants probably would have preferred to lynch him at the--uh, because from the opening of the store, evidently, uh, uh, the sales went through the ceiling after about six months, and, uh, the store grew, and grew, over the years.

CRANE: You have, um, a couple of photographs of what clearly looks like a very busy store. Could you--

LEVY: Oh, let's see--

CRANE: --just share those?

LEVY: --sure, uh, let's see. Let's start--

CRANE: And you can share the one of the--

LEVY: Well, let's start--

CRANE: --the front store.

LEVY: --yeah, let's start with this. This picture is the first, uh, Welgo that was built, uh--I believed they open in, uh, either late October of early November of 1951. Uh, that was their first store and, uh, that store and as an example of how busy they were, this store is the Winchester Road store following one of its, uh, I believe three expansions. Uh, it went from approximately 5,000 square feet to eventually 34,500 square feet.

CRANE: Wow.

LEVY: Uh and--

CRANE: How much are those pants?

LEVY: (laughs) The pants, uh, shown there are $1.50. Uh, I assume they were 00:26:00on sale and probably were regularly $1.99--(laughs)--if you can imagine. You can't get a pair of socks for that today. Um, the next store that opened in, uh, I believe 1957, uh, was on the Southland Drive, and this is the store. It's currently, uh, occupied by Old Kentucky Chocolates. Uh, to give you an idea of how much business we did, uh, this is a picture--

CRANE: Geez.

LEVY: --one of the pictures during the opening. But to give you an idea, the side parking lot, uh, was almost always filled, especially on the weekends. Uh, the owner of Old Kentucky Chocolates has added a two-story building in the old parking lot because he didn't need the excess parking--(laughs)--if you can imagine. Um, here's another picture I believe that would also be on Southland 00:27:00Drive, uh, don't know the exact vintage, but I notice there is some dresses on sale for $15--(laughs)--um, and I can't tell now--can't tell if they're brand name or not. But, uh, they were always busy until, uh, the discount stores arrived in Lexington in the sixties.

CRANE: Can you share what made those, um, those stores special, um, and how they were different from other retail stores besides their location?

LEVY: Uh, I think the--the one thing that they did originally is, uh, my--my father, I guess, was really the merchant, uh, of the three partners. One partner sold out pretty quickly, uh, and that--his name was Hoskell Goldberg by 00:28:00the way. Hoskell had, uh, Sterling--I think it was called Sterling Radio and something on South Broadway originally. Uh, David Weil and his wife Vivian. Uh, David was an, uh, attorney. His wife Vivian is still alive. And Vivian, uh, became one of the merchandisers as well, um, and she was very active in the business along with my dad. Uh, one of the things that they did that I thought was very unique is they tried to learn about quality of merchandise. Uh, originally, what they discovered was that a lot of the so-called name brands refused to sell them because they were trying to discount. So consequently, uh, I think my dad, especially, and likely Vivian as well, educated themselves as to 00:29:00how you measure quality in garments and they tried to buy like quality and sell that for a lower price point than, uh, goods were being offered in the downtown area. Uh, as time passed and Welgo became really a dominant, uh, business in Lexington, uh, some of these brand names, Levi's being an example, uh, came to Welgo and said, "Would you please sell our merchandise?" (laughs) And that was the point at which, uh, really, I think, things really went through the ceiling.

CRANE: One of the things that I remember about the Lexington Jewish community was that so many people were connected. They were related by blood or marriage, they went to the temple or the synagogue together, or they worked or were in 00:30:00business together like you just mentioned--

LEVY: Sure.

CRANE: --um, Hoskell Goldberg and David Weil--

LEVY: Correct.

CRANE: --and your, um, father. I know that at one time, my mother worked at Welgos.

LEVY: Um-hm.

CRANE: And so did my brother, Harvey--

LEVY: Yeah.

CRANE: --and in fact, I worked there occasionally during, um, school breaks. But I know that there were other Jewish people who worked at Welgos, um, who were part of the business. Who were they, and how were they recruited, and what were their roles?

LEVY: Oh gosh. (laughs) Well, uh, I certainly recall Shelly Derer, uh, uh, being there for years. Uh, Shelly, I believe, was the women's wear buyer. Um, we had a gentleman named Milton Sims, who was Jewish, who actually had two tenures at Welgo. Uh, uh, and, um, Milton, uh, interestingly enough, uh, uh, as--as a kid, I always viewed him as a stern old man. I always loved Shelly and 00:31:00I thought Milton was, uh, you know, just a little gruff for my taste. Uh, in later life, after Milton had retired, uh, I actually ran into him when I was, uh, actually jogging through a park and Milton was walking. And his wife had passed away, Milton, uh, was retired, and anyway, yeah, I ended up, uh, kind of renewing, uh, the friendship as it were, and discovered that this really wonderful man, uh, dedicated his latter years, uh, to young kids. Uh, he, I believe, went to Breckinridge school. I may have the name wrong, but I believe that was it. And he started reading to some of the younger kids who were having difficulty, uh, uh, with reading skills. Um, Milton then developed, uh, some major problems and eventually, uh, was blind, but had memorized all the books. 00:32:00And the kids used to read to Mr. Milton, uh, and he would correct them, and, you know, he was a wonderful guy. But anyway, that--I mean, that's one of my fonder memories, I must admit. Uh, as far as others, uh, we had a gentleman named Joe Abish, uh, who was a buyer and, uh, again, kind of a general manager. This was after my, uh, dad was bedridden, and, uh, I had been running the business for a few years. Uh, Joe was very talented and, uh, eventually, uh, did move on.

CRANE: What was it like working with--with these other Jews from the community?

LEVY: I--

CRANE: Was it unique or different because they were Jewish?

LEVY: Um, other than, I think, I was always brought up to respect my elders, so 00:33:00that extend, I guess, uh, when I essentially had to take over the business, uh, you know, I--I wasn't always comfortable trying to, uh, I guess, have things done mine way. Uh, that was a little difficult as far as being Jewish, uh, or not, uh, I don't think it--that had a major impact on me.

CRANE: What happened to Welgos?

LEVY: Oh, I think, uh, I think Welgo was--probably is a typical American retail story. Um, first generation, uh, that would be my dad and the Weils, uh, did it a certain way, uh, had difficulty adapting when--when competitions came 00:34:00in, and would do similar things, and quite frankly do it better. And the adjustments that they chose to make, in my opinion, were probably not the right ones. Uh, uh, I suspect that had--had my father remained a risk-taker and expanded before the first K-Mart opened, as an example, and I believe they were the first discounter in town, uh, likely, had he had three or four stores around Lexington, and large stores as well, I don't think the impact would have been the same. Uh, the result, I think, is he made choices to start eliminating departments, uh, where the discounters, the large discounters, had more depth, lower prices, and that let--left less and less opportunities. So the volume 00:35:00declined, uh, and he was really, I think, unable to modify the nature of the business. Um, when I came in, I had some really tough years, uh, as a result of that. Um, and ultimately, uh, you know, when, I guess, I--I did my risk-taking ventures, uh, some were miserable failures, uh, and then I got lucky and started making some better choices, and I had some very, very, uh, profitable years. And once again, I think Welgo could have probably still existed if my kids had had interest in the store. Uh, basically, their level of interest was--was 00:36:00very, very low and the business itself was really, uh, time intensive. Uh, uh, by the time, uh, I had the realization that I had to continue working I'm guessing fifty hours a week on the average, uh, or make other choices, I made other choices and became a landlord.

CRANE: And who's in--where, in the two locations, the one on Winchester Road---

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: That's, um, Kentucky Lighting, is it?

LEVY: That is Kentucky Lighting. Uh, we sold the building to, uh, Erle Levy and I cannot remember the date.

CRANE: And the one on Southland Drive?

LEVY: Southland Drive I rented and actually, uh, would have bought the building, but the landlady sold it instead, uh, uh, to the gentleman, Don Hurt, who owns the Old Kentucky Chocolates. And meanwhile, I had, uh, purchased the, 00:37:00uh, old Kroger building across the street, uh, at auction from the library, um, and, uh, at that point, uh, my intention was to move Welgo across the street to that location. Uh, but instead, uh, liquor--the first Liquor Barn opened there.

CRANE: I see. Okay. We've talked about Welgo, but you also have had connections to another first of its kind Jewish-owned stores in Lexington, Mr. Wiggs.

LEVY: Correct.

CRANE: Could you explain your connection to Mr. Wiggs and describe what kind of retail business it was?

LEVY: Uh, Mr. Wiggs opened, I believe, in '63 or '64. Um, cousins of mine from Cleveland, my mom's original home, uh, Eddie Singer, Joe Felber, and, 00:38:00um--gosh--a gentleman named Wiggins, whose first name escapes me, opened Mr. Wiggs, evidently, about five years prior to that and wanted to expand into Lexington. My mom had remarried, uh, Babe Meyers, brother of Emanuel Meyers, who owned Meyers' Department Store downtown. Babe, uh, owned an army goods surplus store called Army Goods Headquarters, which was across the street from Meyers' on, uh, Main near Broadway. Uh, they approached Ba--Babe and although I don't know what percentage of ownership he had, um, my guess is that he had a minor ownership, uh, uh, piece of the local Mr. Wiggs, which opened first on New Circle Road. Second store was opened on Nicholasville Road, uh, the corner of 00:39:00Nicholasville and Malabu. And third one was, uh, on Alexandria, in the space currently, uh, uh, owned by--or operated by Kroger.

CRANE: Hm. Um, as long as we're talking about your--

LEVY: Sure, um-hm.

CRANE: --your mom, would you share--

LEVY: Sure.

CRANE: --that picture?

LEVY: This is a picture of the three sisters, um, and I assume they're at a swimming pool--(laughs)--somewhere. And looking at, uh, their ages, my guess is that they are likely still in Cleveland, Ohio. That's Lillian Rosenberg, the eldest. In the middle is Kay, uh, last name Jacobi. And then my mom, Shirley, um--

CRANE: And they were all three Singers?

LEVY: All three were Singers, originally, or, what--Singer or something with a Z, Z-y-n-g-e-r, [sic] I believe. Um, and, uh, they, uh--the picture, I'm 00:40:00guessing, was likely taken by their youngest baby brother, Emanuel Singer.

CRANE: Okay. Um, how would you describe your parents, your mother, and your father's relationship to Judaism?

LEVY: Uh, well, my father, uh, certainly was brought up to be a religious man. Um, I can recall at the synagogue, basically if the rabbi was unavailable, uh, dad would conduct services, um, and, uh, I think, uh, that--well, there is no doubt that was a very important part of his life. Uh, on the Singer side of the family, uh, really no one was religious at all. That probably had greater impact on me than anything. Um, I am, to my knowledge, the only, uh, male in 00:41:00the family not to be bar mitzvah'ed. Uh, I rebelled against that. Lou Ann, my ex-wife, by the way, I think was the first, uh, bat mitzvah at the, uh, temple. So, uh, that's an interesting balance.

CRANE: According to the Ohavay Zion Synagogue website, your paternal grandfather, Joe Levy, and your great uncle, Sam Herman, your grandmother's Jennie or Yachna's brother, along with other great uncles that you have, including my grandfather Jonah Jacobs, were founding members of the synagogue, which at that time, in the beginning, was an--was orthodox in its practices. In fact, many years later, I remember your father reciting Jonah during the Yom Kippur services. However, I know that you pretty much grew up at the temple. 00:42:00How did this happen? What was Judaism like growing up for you? And how did it change over time?

LEVY: Well, originally, uh, of course, my father had me involved in the synagogue, uh, and my earliest memories are sitting through, uh, what at that time appeared to be the seventy-two hour Yom Kippur service--(laughs)--you know? And I would look forward to, uh, escaping to go to--what was it? Will Dunn's Drug Store, I think? (laughs)

CRANE: Yes.

LEVY: Uh, you know? But, I--I was, uh, it--it just never registered with me, I think, uh, for whatever reason. Uh, I would entertain myself by reading the English sections. Uh, you know, probably the only thing that I ever--that ever stuck with me might have been, uh, a little bit of my Maimonides, uh, the eight 00:43:00degrees of charity. And as a kid, I kept trying to figure out what all that meant. Uh, as an adult, I think I finally--I got it. But, uh, my mom, I think, realized how, uh, really unhappy I was, you know, being brought up like that, and eventually, uh, my brother and I were, uh, allowed to go to Sunday school at the temple, and, uh, that was more to our liking. Uh, uh, I think it was far less, in my opinion, intense as a kid, um, you know? My--again, you know, I--growing up Jewish in old Lexington was very strange. Uh, you know, one of my recollections as a kid probably, I'm thinking, second grade at Kenwick, was this little girl who had just moved in the from the mountains. Um, yeah, who I could 00:44:00barely understand. She rememb--she--she kind of reminded me of the guys who had cut tobacco for my grandfather and I always thought they were speaking a foreign language, but, uh, you know, of course, it was, uh, their version of, uh, English--(laughs)--as it were. But one thing I remember was I was, uh, just sitting at my desk and this little girl started running her fingers through my hair--

CRANE: (laughs)

LEVY: --and, you know, I looked back and I said, "I don't--what are you doing?" And she said, "Where are your horns?" And, you know, she was brought up to think that the Jews were the devil, and--and of course, you know, I explained to her that we had no horns--(laughs)--as far as I know, and I remember, you know, the interesting part was, you know, my parents then explained to me that there are some people who weren't too terribly educated, and, you know, they have some 00:45:00innate prejudices, and this is unfortunately one of them and it's just something to deal with. And, you know, that one always stuck with me, uh, so I don't think it had any impact other than, you know, my current view, and that is, you know, I d--I am absolutely Jewish, uh, but I would say a lot of my Jewish friends consider me Jewish with a hyphen in there. J-E-W, hyphen, I-S-H, uh, you know? But that being said, I'm just not a good Jew.

CRANE: (laughs) Describe some of your experience at the religious at the temple.

LEVY: Oh, gosh. Well, you know, my--

CRANE: I know you had a lot of friends.

LEVY: Yeah, well, I--you know, we had lots and lots of friends. Uh, you know, the people, uh, I recall at the temple who I liked, I liked a lot. The rabbis I 00:46:00liked, I liked a lot. You know, Joe Rosenbloom was terrific, uh, gosh. Davis before that, who by the way, uh, I met again, uh, in New York, uh, where he was the rabbi emeritus possibly in White Plains or something, uh, uh, when I was an attending a bar mitzvah of, uh--for one of my friends in later years. Um, I immensely disliked, uh, Rabbi Robert A. Rothman, the rabbi, who I thought, uh, was a poor excuse for a human being. Um, you know, I made judgments and probably bad ones--(laughs)--I suspect when it came to something like that, but, uh, you know, it's just my personal view.

CRANE: Sandy, where did you go to high school?

LEVY: Uh, I went to Lafayette.

CRANE: Um, and as we both know, there were only a handful or two of Jewish 00:47:00students at any of the--

LEVY: Sure.

CRANE: --high schools back then.

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: What impact, if any, did being Jewish have on your school years? You mentioned the one experience when you were at Kenwick--

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: --um--

LEVY: You know, I really--

CRANE: --what about in high school?

LEVY: --I don't--I don't really feel like there was any major impact. Uh, again, you know, I think my friends thought nothing of it, and, uh, and again, I, uh--I don't think there was any--any real discrimination of any sort, uh, at all. And don't forget when I--by the time when I was perhaps a junior and the schools were finally, uh, integrated, uh, at that point, uh, it was fairly clear to me that, uh, you know, most of the animosity was directed--misdirected, uh, toward the poor students who, you know, came in from, uh, I guess, Dunbar and 00:48:00Douglass originally and felt so out of place.

CRANE: Hm. Describe how, or if you connected with a larger Jewish community in Lexington, or Louisville, or Cincinnati, such as youth groups, or parties, or socializing in some way.

LEVY: Yeah, I w--well, I was involved in, uh, youth group, you know, off in all that, uh, and I went to camp in Zionsville, was it? A couple of times. Um, you know, and those--again, those were--those were nice times. Uh, uh, I don't think it--I don't think it had any major lifelong impact on me, frankly, but, uh, you know, those were just part of the experiences of growing up.

CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual?

LEVY: Probably as a kid, uh, you know, the, uh, Seder, I suspect, uh, you know, 00:49:00that's when the extended family would get together, uh, you know, when I was young, trying to get the gelt, uh, finding the Afikoman in there, something like that. Uh, you know, but again, those are, uh, primarily childhood memories. Uh, you know, we did not, as a family, continue that tradition, uh, uh, neither Lou Ann or I--nor I had, uh, any great interest in doing that.

CRANE: You're connected to so many Jewish families in Lexington and are really a wealth of information. So before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else unique we should know about your family background or your childhood years?

LEVY: Hm. (laughs) I really can't think of anything.

CRANE: Well, if you do. I know that your first college experience began at 00:50:00Miami of Ohio.

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: But at some point, you attended the University of Kentucky. Why was Miami of Ohio your initial choice and how did you end up at UK?

LEVY: Uh, I guess I chose Miami of Ohio, uh, simply because, uh, it seemed like a better choice for me, uh, you know. I'd been dating Lou Ann for a thousand years, it was fairly close to home, um, I didn't want to go to University of Chicago, where my brother attended. Um, you know, I--just because I didn't want that sense of competition. Um, and, uh, essentially, I became homesick, so I transferred to UK the next year.

CRANE: Um, how did your studies change from Miami to UK?

LEVY: Uh, really, I 00:51:00mean, uh, not much. Uh, I was an English major, uh, and I always enjoyed reading and I always curious, I guess, uh, and really, the only thing that changed, uh, more than anything else was, uh, that, uh, I got married too young and didn't finish. And so I dropped out after my junior year, got married at twenty-one, and, uh, uh, regretted that I never went back because I really thought I intended to do so.

CRANE: You can be a Diamond scholar now.

LEVY: I doubt it, uh, I hope they have higher standards. (laughs)

CRANE: Describe a day in your life as a college student on UK's campus.

LEVY: Well, I would, uh, attend my classes. Uh, generally speaking, uh, at 00:52:00night, I, uh, hate to admit it, but I would usually get involved in poker games, uh, which is, uh, how I built my first house by the way. But, uh, we had all night poker games in the basement of the home on Linden Walk, uh, where one of my poker-playing buddies, uh, lived at the time. And I rarely slept, so, uh, I, generally speaking, uh, found it fairly easy to, uh, do--to really complete each and every task and at the same time burn the midnight oil.

CRANE: What impact, if any, did being Jewish have on your day-to-day experiences at UK?

LEVY: Honestly, I don't think any. I--I chose not to join, uh, the 00:53:00fraternities, and, uh, so consequently, my friends were either friends who I met as a result of, uh, I guess just meeting them in class, or poker games, or you know, some other social aspects, and, uh, but I really didn't attend any Jewish functions that I'm aware--that I can recall.

CRANE: Um, Hillel? Were you--

LEVY: No.

CRANE: Okay. What was the climate on campus for Jews to become members of non-Jewish fraternities when you were there?

LEVY: I honestly don't know because I, uh, you know--I just showed no interest, uh, you know. At Miami of Ohio, uh, uh, I think they offered--I think it was a Fiji, Fuji, whatever it's called--(laughs)--you know, the rush thing on me. I just--yeah, I thought those things were silly, so I just didn't do it.

CRANE: What was Jewish life in Lexington when you were a student at UK?

LEVY: (laughs) I--I wish I could help you, but I--I just don't know. I really wasn't involved. I'm sorry.

CRANE: That's okay. Um, what was your Jewish life after college? You said you got married when you were twenty-one?

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: Um, obviously, that's what kept you in Lexington?

LEVY: Yep.

CRANE: Um, describe your Judaism in your home as a parent.

LEVY: Well, uh, originally, we, uh, sent our kids to Sunday school, uh, because the grandparents, uh, really my grand--my father, uh, insisted on it and the kids is--would attend some of the religious functions and so forth, but, uh, as they got older, uh, the kids just, uh, really, again, I suspect because the 00:55:00parents did not guide them in that direction, the kids showed little interest and, uh, by the time I'm sure they were teenagers, uh, we no longer attended, uh, either organization. Did I stump you? (laughs)

CRANE: No.

LEVY: Sorry.

CRANE: Um, did you all celebrate holidays, and if so, in the home, what were they like?

LEVY: Not really, uh, you know. Uh, when they were young, we celebrated Hanukkah, of course. Uh, we did celebrate the other holidays, uh, you know, when my dad was functional, um, but after--you know, after he became bedridden, uh, you know, all that disappeared.

CRANE: Tell us about your involvement and the involvement of your children with the Jewish community outside of the religious school. I mean, um, you said they 00:56:00went for a while and then--

LEVY: Right.

CRANE: --they quit going. Did they stay connected--um, describe your family as a family unit remaining connected to the Jewish community.

LEVY: Well, our friends, our primary--you know, our closest friends, of course, are Jewish. Uh, Lou Ann and I traveled a great deal, uh, with the Winnikers and the Lowenthals, um, you know, Mike and Harriet Ades were our friends, Sarah was--is Jennifer's age. Uh, so, you know, the kids, of course, you know, had friends who were Jewish. They also had a lot of friends primarily from school, uh, uh, with whom they were also close. So I think, again, you know, the parents and, uh, Lou Ann and I, essentially did not, uh, bring them up in a 00:57:00Jewish, uh, background.

CRANE: What has been the role of Israel and Zionism in your activities and of your identity as a Jew?

LEVY: I unfortunately would say, uh, very little. Um, I, you know--I certainly, you know--I mean, I--I identify and I support Israel, but that being said, uh, this is not something that, uh, I guess, guides my every thought.

CRANE: Okay. You grew up in Lexington, and with the exception of going away to college for a bit, you pretty much remained here. Your family, um, and or you have been involved at some level with both the synagogue and the temple, and you're related by blood, or marriage, or connected by business, or friendships to much of the Jewish population here. Um, so tell me, Sandy, how do you think 00:58:00the Jewish community in Lexington has changed over the years?

LEVY: Well, certainly, it's grown. Um, that--I think that goes without saying. Uh, as far as how it has grown, I'm not even qualified to say because, uh, other than funerals, I suspect, I haven't set foot inside the synagogue in years and possibly that--well, I'll take that back. I--I would have lunch, occasionally, with Marc Kline, who I really liked, uh, you know, just as an outstanding human being, you know, and he ma--he'd--you know, he'd pitch me all the time--(laughs)--and I told him, "No, that's not a strike. That's a ball." But anyway, uh, I really--I don't think I'm qualified to answer that.

CRANE: Okay. Um, what work do you do or did you do that we haven't already talked about?

LEVY: Uh, we--businesses?

CRANE: Um-hm.

LEVY: Oh gosh, um, hm. Well, let's see. I--(background sneezing)--uh, had a--(background sneezing)--had a group of stores, uh, in malls and strip centers, uh, called The Better Half, uh, which, uh, I closed, I guess, when the big department stores, uh, started doing that, uh, piece of the business, uh, uh, a bit better than I did. Uh, that was women's large sized clothing, but, uh, fashions. Uh, you know, in the old days, it was, uh, difficult for, uh, women who couldn't fit into the standard eight to eighteen or the junior sizes to 01:00:00really get anything fashionable, so our first one was in Lexington Mall. And then, uh, I opened one other here in town, and one in Florence Mall, and one in Kenwood in Cincinnati. And then when McAlpin's at the time opened their fashions for larger sized ladies, they put it right outside the entrance to their store, which was, uh, two doors down from my store. So at that point, uh, I was able to sell a couple of locations, close them down, and that was that. Um, I also was involved with two partners, one in New York, one in, uh, well, basically out of San Diego, uh, in buying surplus merchandise from large, uh, primarily department stores. Uh, you know, very, uh, we're talking about 01:01:00substantial, uh, investments, capital investments perhaps in the million-dollar range would have been the maximum we ever had. And basically the three of us, as it were, scout potential, uh, opportunities, and uh, generally speaking, we would then go in for some percentage of the piece. Uh, the person who found the goods could take some percentage for his or her operation, uh, otherwise, we would help sell it out. So I was involved in that for perhaps five years or so. Um, and that was very, very profitable. Um, I, uh--because of my buy-outs of Jos A. Bank overstocks when they were run by Quaker Oats, when Jos A. Banks 01:02:00started franchising, uh, I made the error of becoming a franchisee and, uh, discovered that the reason they were franchising, uh, to my chagrin, was that they were trying to raise capital. And, uh, it was very successful when it opened in town, but when I discovered was that the suits that were ordered were not necessarily filled by sending the new merchandise, but rather if they had excess merchandise that was similar, they were, uh, sending old merchandise here. And, uh, it took about a year and a half before I realized what was happening and that did not end well, so I became an ex-Jos A. Bank franchisee the hard way. Um, what else? Uh, with Stuart Lowenthal, we opened up, uh, at Kroger, an operation called FastCare, which has now become Little Clinic--

CRANE: Wow.

LEVY: --um, I was basically the financial guy. Uh, Stuart--it was Stuart's idea and Stuart is the guy who, at age seventy-five, probably works more hours a day than I thought of working in a week. Um, and the theory behind it was a--was a terrific one. Uh, we thought we'd have nurse practitioners on staff at all times, a doctor to oversee this. And the pitch to Kroger was, uh, they could sell more prescriptions because nurse practitioners could write prescriptions and they could diagnose, uh, minor--certain minor, uh, ailments. And the problem with the original that I ran into was that it was difficult finding nurse practitioners to staff the kiosk every opening hour. Uh, 01:04:00eventually, after about a year or so, uh, I bailed and stayed on free of charge while Stuart made the transition, and very successfully, uh, turned it out, of course, to be what's now FastCare. I--I'm sorry, what's now Little Clinic, uh, that, uh, Kroger will have, I'm sure, in all of its major, uh, stores. Um, what else have I done? I don't know.

CRANE: You sound like you've been a very busy man.

LEVY: I--yeah, well, you know. Some hits, some misses. But, uh.

CRANE: Great. Exciting.

LEVY: Yeah.

CRANE: Um, looking back, I know that you have certainly expressed a--um, a distance from your family's Jewish background. You've sort of moved away from that. But I'm just wondering if--if you could change anything about your 01:05:00relationship with Judaism, what would it be?

LEVY: Well, huh. That--that becomes--that really is--is a difficult question, uh, for me to answer, simply because my world view is, I guess, really has changed over the years. Uh, I--I guess I once regarded religion generally as being something good in that it provided, I think, a--a safe place for people, like-minded people, to gather. And, uh, again, you know, I mean, I will say, for instance, uh, you know, there are parts of Judaism that I like. One would be the standards of ethics and morality, uh, you know, that I--to which I try to 01:06:00adhere. Uh, on the other hand, uh, I look at ritual, uh, especially orthodox and conservative ritual in Judaism, and I tend to question the--the difference between our rituals and the rituals of some of the religions that we now consider to be wacky religions. Uh, everyone has something. Uh, I don't miss that part at all, uh, and--and I certainly feel more comfortable being around people who are Jewish than I do certain people who come from different cultural background. And again, that's because of the way I was raised and I certainly recognize that. Uh, to say I have regrets, I think is--that's a little strong for me, that really is.

CRANE: Is there anything else that you would like to share that I haven't 01:07:00already asked you about? LEVY: Uh, gosh. No--

CRANE: Some of your connections, or family background, or--

LEVY: Well, no, I mean, I--

CRANE: --parts of your life that were interesting, or characters in your family that you'd like to tell about.

LEVY: Well, let's see, characters, certainly, my stepfather was quite a character, uh, Arthur "Babe" Meyers. Uh, came from a large family. Uh, you know, the story I also heard was that, uh, they all had vaudeville backgrounds, uh, and I can believe it. Each of the brothers was funnier than the other, uh, I mean, they really were a lively family. Uh, my--my stepfather, of course, being a--well, was a WWII guy, and, uh, he--he used language--(laughs)--that, 01:08:00uh, I suspect, uh, um, would offend most people. Uh, but he could do it in such a charming way, uh, that, uh, I think most people forgave him that. He was certainly quite a character, uh, uh, I think, in fact, in the Herald-Leader, there was an article when--gosh, Dave Greenwald? Is that his name? Opened the deli?

CRANE: Um-hm. In Chevy Chase.

LEVY: In Chevy Chase. And as I recall, Babe--now, Babe was not religious in any way, and they had a picture of Babe, and Dave Greenwald, and I think Bob Stevens, who was a county judge perhaps at the time. Anyway, and they had them all wearing yarmulkes and there's Babe cutting a salami--(laughs)--so, you know, 01:09:00I mean, he did stunts like that that, again, you know, I think kind of endured him to the community and made my life a lot of fun.

CRANE: Okay. Um, Sandy, this has been a pleasure. Um, it's been wonderful, um, chatting with you and I've learned a lot.

LEVY: Well, I'm glad you did. (laughs)

CRANE: I have.

LEVY: My pleasure, Janice. Thank you.

[End of interview.]