Interview with Benjamin Baker, May 13, 2016

DONAHUE: All right. It's May 13th, 2016, I'm Arwen Donahue, and I'm part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence, and I'm honored to be here, today, with Mr. Ben Baker. Uh, we interviewed Ben's father, Harold Baker, a little under two weeks ago, on May third, so we're especially happy to have this chance for intergenerational perspective. So let's start today with, uh, your date of birth?

BAKER: September 10th, 1950.

DONAHUE: Okay, and where were you born?

BAKER: Good Samaritan Hospital in Lexington.

DONAHUE: Great. What was your name at birth, your full name?

BAKER: Benjamin Roos Baker.

DONAHUE: Okay.

BAKER: Roos is my mother's maiden name, so I was the only one that got, uh, a family name, of the three of us.

DONAHUE: And that's--

BAKER: --of the four of us--

DONAHUE: --that's R, R-O--

BAKER: R-double--

DONAHUE: --O-S?

BAKER: Correct.

DONAHUE: Yeah, okay. Um, so we know f--your parents' names, and your father 00:01:00explained a little bit about the family history. I just wonder if you have any, um, since we didn't talk very much about your mother's history, we talked more about your father's family history, if you have anything you can say about your mother's family, where they came from?

BAKER: Um, Mom was born in Lexington, she was an only child. Her grandfath--her father was one of two children, they were from New York, and he came to Lexington to open up a business, a men's clothing store, or women's clothing store, I guess. And he had several businesses, really, was, he traveled around Southeast United States doing closeouts: when stores would close, he would come and do the last four months, or five months, of a business' 00:02:00existence, and then he'd come back to Lexington. Uh, my grandmother on my mother's side had a sister who lived in Paris.

DONAHUE: Paris, Kentucky?

BAKER: Um-hm. So the two families were very close. They also only had one child, uh, her name is Barbara Straw, she is still living, she's ninety-two. So it w--I was very fortunate, in that my father had a sister living here, my mother had a cousin living here. So family was very important, as far as growing, as, when I was growing up. So.

DONAHUE: What was the name of the clothing store that your mother's father had, do you know?

BAKER: I cannot answer that for you. I can tell you its--

DONAHUE: --but they had--

BAKER: --location, but I can't tell you our--the name of it.

DONAHUE: Okay. Tell me its location, though.

BAKER: Um, one block west of the courthouse, of the old courthouse, at the 00:03:00corner of Main Street and Mill.

DONAHUE: Okay.

BAKER: On the same side of the street as the courthouse.

DONAHUE: And was that still in operation during your childhood?

BAKER: Um, it was in existence, um, but my grandfather, uh, did not age well, and so I'm not sure how long the business existed after I was born, so.

DONAHUE: Um-hm, um-hm. And, um, did you have brothers and sisters?

BAKER: I have an older brother who lives in San Francisco, a sister who, younger sister, who lives in Kansas City, and a third, a second sister, who lives in Seattle.

DONAHUE: What are their full names?

BAKER: Michael J. Baker, who was born in 1947; Gloria Baker Feinstein, who was 00:04:00born in 1954; and Barbara Francis Baker, who was born in 1959.

DONAHUE: Okay, thank you. Um, I had the impression, from interviewing your father, that his parents were very, um, very open to change, they came to the United States, and they were, um, at least his father's father, Morris Baker, was, uh, hel--a founder of the synagogue, and had come, he said, from Poland, and was, come fr--had come from an Orthodox background, but he didn't hold onto that, the Orthodox tradition, he later became a member of the temple, and embraced Reform Judaism. And, uh, I wondered if you just had any reflections on, uh, what it was that made your grandparents kind of open to that change and, 00:05:00and whether that--

BAKER: Well, I interpreted what Dad said a little differently than you.

DONAHUE: Okay.

BAKER: I don't think that my grandparents were as receptive to the change as my parents.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: Uh, my grandparents remained--well, my grandfather died in '46, so, um. He died before any of his grandchildren were ever born. Uh, but, uh, I don't, I think my, my grandmother on my dad's side probably attended, uh, the temple only because her children were attending the temple. But I think her main place of worship was the synagogue. Um, she died when I was young. Ten, eleven, so '62, '63, someplace in that area (??).

DONAHUE: I wondered, because it seemed as if, coming from Poland, and from a 00:06:00place that had very, um, Orthodox traditions, and then coming to a new country, and, um, being willing to not keep kosher, and, uh, and being willing to have your children go to a Reform temple, where men and women worship together, struck me as being open, fairly open to change.

BAKER: Well, I think, I think that statement is correct. Um, keeping kosher in small town USA is a challenge. Um, logistic-wise, and expense-wise. Now, yes, there was a butcher, uh, on Upper Street, I think, but it's a real challenge to try to keep kosher, uh, according to all the laws that are set down.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: Um, and I think that my mother was always a member of the temple, uh, and my father became involved in the temple, uh, after he was bar mitzvahed, uh, and it just, it was easier. He doesn't speak Hebrew, uh, and at the time the services at the synagogue were in Hebrew, and it, uh, was, was just, uh, a more comfortable place for my parents, I can't speak for my grandparents.

DONAHUE: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And what about your involvement, um, with the family business, when you were a boy? Did you have much awareness of what was going on in the business, and did you kind of spend time in there, in the, in the Baker Iron and Metal business?

BAKER: Uh, I started working summers in either 1964 or 1965. Uh, so I was fifteen. I worked every summer, I sometimes worked Christmas vacation, or, once I got into high school. So I, I really was the only one of the four children that spent any time at the office. Uh, probably my sophomore year of college, I realized that I had an opportunity, and so I told my father that I would be coming back to Lexington after I graduated in '72, uh, to work with him. He was excited, this is, you know, whenever you have a family business, you always hope that one of your offspring is going to, uh, show an interest in coming back to 00:09:00the family business. Uh, there was never any pressure, so it wasn't like, "Well, you're the designated one that's coming back to, to Lexington." But, as I said, none of the other members of my family showed any real interest in doing this, so. It worked out fine.

DONAHUE: So when you were fifteen and sixteen, and started going over to the office, was that out of any kind of family pressure at all, or was that--

BAKER: No--

DONAHUE: --just your own decision?

BAKER: No, it was my own decision to make some money--(laughs)--it wasn't any other reason, so.

DONAHUE: And when you got there, were you interested in what was going on there, did you get, uh, engaged by the business end of it?

BAKER: Well, in, in the, my early years, it was strictly clerical work. Uh, I might answer the phone, uh, might be cashier, paying customers, uh, but it was 00:10:00up until, uh, the time I graduated from college, most of what I did was strictly clerical. Uh, it wasn't until after I came back from, in '72, and started working full-time, that I got involved in, uh, in what was going on outside of the confines of the office. So.

DONAHUE: Was your father, during that period, involved in all aspects of the business?

BAKER: Yes, ma'am. Yes. He did have a man that was working, had two, two people that had worked with him: a man by the name of Shelley Derrer (??), who was, um, I'm not exactly sure what Shelley's title was, but he did some of the marketing, called around on some of the industrial accounts, and then he had a skill man that had been with him for twenty-plus years, uh, that he relied on, 00:11:00who opened up the business every morning, and, uh, knew all the customers that came in across the scale. So he was very valuable. Uh, but Dad did the vast majority of the marketing, called on many of the industrial plants that we did business with, so.

DONAHUE: Going back to your family background and, a bit, you mentioned that it was important to you to have family here in Kentucky when you were, when you were growing up. Did you, um, did your family gather together for holidays, or wh--how often? How, how was that family? How did you experience that family togetherness?

BAKER: Oh. We always gathered for, uh break the fast, for, uh, Passover, uh, always celebrated one night of Hanukkah together, where everybody bought presents for everybody else, and the kids were spoiled badly. Um, so it was 00:12:00always, uh, a major event in our house, to, for that. Um, and then when we were a little bit older, and, um, uh, the family started having, um, bar and bat mitzvahs, obviously that was a major family event. And in the--those particular times, family from out of town would come to Lexington to celebrate as well. Uh, but for just the regular holidays, that was strictly, um, those families that lived in Lexington. But it was always, uh, always a family occasion. And that's what's so odd, now, because I always had, uh, especially for Passover, we always had so much family living in Lexington, that we had no problem filling our table. Uh, now that we have so few members of, of our family living in 00:13:00Lexington, or those that are capable of coming, uh, we now have started inviting, uh, close friends. Uh, just because it, it's a, it's an occasion that you want to share, uh, and not just limit it to immediate family, so.

DONAHUE: So about how many people would you have around your table, during your childhood?

BAKER: Oh, this year we had twelve--

DONAHUE: --um-hm--

BAKER: --uh, we've had as many as sixteen or eighteen, um, when my, uh, when I was growing up, we would have the adult table and the children's table, and you always wanted to graduate from the children's table to sit at the adult table, uh, and then always complained when the, one of the adults ended up sitting at the children's table, because it inhibited what the kids could do. Um, so I can remember, uh, going to, uh, aunts on, the aunt on my father's side, and the aunt 00:14:00on my, and the cousin on my, uh, mother's side, uh, where we would have sixteen, or twenty, uh, just because we had a big family, you know. I mean, they're f--there, there were six in my family, and then when you ask each of the cousins, you know, it, it grows without asking anybody else from outside of the family to show up, so. But they were always fun occasions.

DONAHUE: And how did your parents approach your Jewish education?

BAKER: Well, I went to Sunday School, uh, I went to, uh, Hebrew School, which was always on Monday afternoon, after public school. Uh, wasn't a very good Hebrew student, language has always been a challenge for me. Um--

DONAHUE: Was that mainly to learn for your bar--for the purposes of your bar mitzvah?

BAKER: Yes. Strictly for my bar mitzvah, yeah. And so it, you are, 00:15:00it's--forty years ago, fifty years ago, when I did this--(laughs)--it was more memorization than being able to pick up a book and read what, uh, what was on the printed page. Uh, hopefully they're doing things differently now, but when I went through this, uh, it was strictly, uh, at least from what I remember, it was memorization. So.

DONAHUE: Did you have a sense of Jewish identity that was important to you, or did you have a sense of, of doing, uh, of fulfilling your parents' wishes with your Jewish education? Where did that stand in your own psychology?

BAKER: Um, well, I really don't think that it impacted me one way or the other, uh, probably until the age of fifteen or sixteen, uh, I mean, I knew that, uh, 00:16:00Friday nights, I wasn't going to be doing, uh, I wasn't going to basketball games, or, or things of that nature. And it was more situational because, uh, my parents were going to services. Maybe we didn't tag along, but my parents were going to services, and it just wasn't convenient to do other activities. Um, I think that, uh, because I missed school for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, really, those are the only two holidays that you, uh, abstain from going to school, I knew I was a little different. But it wasn't a situation that, uh, I was waving a flag and saying, "I'm Jewish, I'm different," there were not that 00:17:00many Jewish kids in any of the public schools. I mean, we were spread out throughout Lexington, so there wasn't er, uh, if there were more than four or five Jewish kids at Ashland, or Cassidy, or Morton, uh, that really was, uh, exceptional. And those are the three schools that I went to, the public schools that I went to in Lexington. I went away to school for high school, uh, and that's where my, uh, I realized that there was, uh, a difference. So.

DONAHUE: So when you went to Ashland, Cassidy, and Morton, were your friendships across the board, with Jewish and non-Jewish students?

BAKER: Um-hm, most definitely. Yes, most definitely.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. And did you experience any--any anti-Semitism at all?

BAKER: Not in Lexington. No, I wasn't aware of, um, being treated differently, 00:18:00or people saying things, no, not at all.

DONAHUE: Hm. Where did you go to high school?

BAKER: Uh, Deerfield Academy, in Deerfield, Massachusetts.

DONAHUE: And describe what happened, there, that made you feel more like you were--

BAKER: Well, it--

DONAHUE: --differentiated because of--

BAKER: --my--

DONAHUE: --your religion?

BAKER: My sophomore and junior year, I didn't feel uncomfortable. I was surprised by the number of Jewish students that were there. And it was an all-boys' school when I was there, from '65 to '68. Uh, it, there were 550 students, and maybe ten percent of the school, maybe a little bit more, was Jewish. But most of the students came from, uh, not very religious backgrounds. 00:19:00So the number of people that would go into the closest town, which was Greenfield, for Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur services, were maybe ten, maybe fifteen. Uh, it just, uh, they, it wasn't important to them. Um, my senior year, I realized that, uh, some of the people that I thought were my friends, uh, were, had some anti-Semitic strains to their, the activities and the relationship between the, between us. Um, I, nothing I could do about it, uh, I didn't make any loud noises or anything, I just accepted it, and kept my head down, and finished out my year, and, knowing that I wasn't going to see them 00:20:00again, and life would go on. So.

DONAHUE: How did that get expressed, what, what did you see?

BAKER: Um, well, the thing that, that struck me was that the way you sign up for dorms, is you get X number of people together, and as a group, you sign up to be living in a, from a sophomore dorm, to a junior dorm, a junior to a senior dorm. Each year. And between my sophomore year and my junior year, there was a group of eight of us that signed up together, and all of us lived on the same floor. Um, when we got ready to sign up for my senior year, they made a point of making sure I didn't join them, the same group of people. Uh, the sad thing was that, because I signed up by myself, I end up being on the same floor with 00:21:00those eight people who had told me that they didn't want me, uh, to sign up with them for senior year. I assumed, because I was the only non-Jew--

DONAHUE: --you were the only Jew--

BAKER: - -I was the only Jew among the eight or nine, that that was the rationale behind it. May--whether I was reading into it or not, I have no idea, but so.

DONAHUE: Hm. How did that impact your sense of Jewish identity, did that make you feel more--?

BAKER: Um, I, I came away from it, realizing that, when I got ready to apply for college, I was looking for a school that had a larger Jewish population, so that, um, I had a greater population to pick from, as far as friends going 00:22:00forward. Um, so I applied to the University of Pennsylvania, Northwestern, and Washington University in St. Louis, each of them that have a, uh, higher percentage of Jewish students than most colleges in the United States, so. So.

DONAHUE: And which one did you wind up attending?

BAKER: I went to Northwestern.

DONAHUE: Okay.

BAKER: So. Long time ago. (both laugh).

DONAHUE: What years were you there?

BAKER: [Nineteen] sixty-eight through seventy-two.

DONAHUE: What were your interests, and your hopes and dreams at the time?

BAKER: Well, I went in thinking I was going to be a math major. Uh, what I was going to do with it, I had no idea, but I thought I'd be a math major. And that lasted two quarters; when, what I understood at math, and what they were teaching at math, were not necessarily the same. So I changed to social 00:23:00psychology, and, as I said, I decided, sometime during my sophomore year, maybe my junior, that I was, um, coming back to Lexington, so I was more interested in developing the people skills that you would need to run a business. I didn't necessarily want the--to go into a business program, uh, it was too late in the game to change horses, change courses. So I didn't do that, uh, that might have been beneficial, but it was too late in the process. So it, um, it was just a, it was a positive experience, as far as just developing, so that, when I came back to be involved in a small business, such as our family business, that, uh, 00:24:00I had some skills that, uh, developed over the four years that I was at Northwestern, so.

DONAHUE: And what happened while you were there, that made you realize you wanted to come back and be involved with the family business?

BAKER: I don't know if there was any one particular thing. Um, it just, I, I felt comfortable with the family business, uh, I saw an opportunity, I liked Lexington, Lexington had been my home all my life, um, and I just, I thought that would be a good place to live, so, as I said, I don't think there was any one particular incident or episode that caused me to, to say, "Well, I'm headed back to Lexington." It, that generation of young people whose families had 00:25:00scrapyards, it's surprising, the number of people from--who are a couple years older than I am to a couple years younger--how many gravitated back to their family businesses. I mean, the company that bought us out in 2003--

DONAHUE: The Cohen family--

BAKER: The Cohen family. The--both of, of the children, of the boys, that is, came back in the family business. One is three years older than me, and the other is three or four years younger than me. And both of them gravit--after college, gravitated back to, uh, being in the family business, so.

DONAHUE: Did you have close relationships with some of those families, while you were growing in (??)?

BAKER: Uh, I had none. Dad had the relationships, I didn't. My relationships developed after being in the business, uh, going to, uh, we have a, we had a 00:26:00local chapter that was based in Cin--Cincinnati, so the, all the dealers from, uh, Indiana, Ohio, and Kentucky would come down--and parts of West Virginia--would come to Cincinnati on a quarterly basis, for meetings. And I would meet them, uh, I would see them at, uh, seminars, uh, national conventions, so because our parents knew each other, and because we had similar locations, uh, similar problems, uh, we kind of gravitated to each other, so.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. I'd like to get back and talk about that in a bit, but first, um, when you were in college, did you maintain a Jewish practice, sense of Jewish ritual, did you go to services, or--?

BAKER: None whatsoever.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did you miss that at all?

BAKER: Um, no.

DONAHUE: Did being there give you any, being away from your, uh, from Lexington, from Kentucky, from your family, and from your Jewish life here, kind of give you any perspective on, um, the, the community, that maybe you didn't realize when you were in the middle of it, growing up?

BAKER: At the time, probably not. Um, when you are a college student, when I was a college student, maybe not everyone. When I was a college student, you were living at the moment, you're not necessarily, um, delving deep into why you're doing certain things. Uh, the only--uh, I'm an avid sports fan for UK 00:28:00sports. And one of the years that I was at Northwestern, Kentucky played Northwestern in basketball. And both Kentucky's and Northwestern's nicknames were Wildcats. That was the only basketball game I went to in four years. And it was really nice, because I could stand up and say, "Go Cats!"

DONAHUE: Right. (laughs).

BAKER: And no one knew who I was cheering for. Um, my parents, uh, always made arrangements to go to the Mideast Regionals, and because, back then, they kept all the schools within a certain region, so Kentucky always played in the Mideast Regional. And they were the only school from the Southeastern Conference that got to go. We went to Columbus, we went to Madison, Wisconsin, I went to the Final Four in College Park, Maryland, um. Nah, we, those were the 00:29:00things that I thought about, more than, uh, the Jewish aspect of, of my life. It's sad to say, but that's the truth--(laughs)--so.

DONAHUE: Well, when you came back to Lexington, after you graduated in 1972, did you immediately get back involved in, with temple activities--

BAKER: --I did--

DONAHUE: --and--?

BAKER: I did. Uh, I joined the temple within two or three months after coming back to Lexington, um, because I knew a high percentage of the families that were here, uh, they got me involved in committee work, maybe too quickly, uh, and then I was asked to serve on the board, to run for the board. Um. After 00:30:00I'd been here for, probably, seven or eight years. And so. Yes, I became involved. And then my wife and I were married in 1977, so yes, we were both involved. She had, she was born Jewish, uh, her family's, her family resigned from the temple when she was very young, but she knew how important the temple, and Judaism, were to me, so it was not a problem for her to be as involved as I was.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. What's her name?

BAKER: Ruth Gordon Baker.

DONAHUE: Okay. So is she, it, the, part of the Gordon family that was also--

BAKER: She is--

DONAHUE: --involved in the scrap business?

BAKER: She is. Was. They're no longer in the--but, yes. She was George's youngest child, uh, so.

DONAHUE: How did you, did you know her through your childhood, then?

BAKER: No. She is, um, four and a half years younger, I knew her brother and one of her older s--sisters, um, but when I left Lexington at the age of fifteen, she was only ten. So, uh, that, um, there really weren't any reasons for our paths to cross. Uh, and as I said, her father resigned from the temple, so as I was growing up in the business, I knew the name, Harry Gordon Scrap, um, but it wasn't until I went to her cousin's bar mitzvah, and I met her, and this was in, uh, 1976, uh, that I even knew she existed, so. And we started dating, I got mar--we were married a year later.

DONAHUE: Was your commitment to the temple, uh, was there a combination of, uh, 00:32:00that it--let me see how to frame the question--did it feed you spiritually and socially, culturally, was it tradition, or what was the primary, what was the core of the importance of that experience, that connection, for you?

BAKER: There definitely was a spiritual aspect, but I think, early on, the social aspect was, uh, much more important. I mean, here I was, a young, single individual, coming back to Lexington, uh, I was looking for ways of meeting contemporaries, uh, so this was, um, a good way of meeting that. And I'd really come to the conclusion that I was hoping to find someone Jewish, and that's a 00:33:00real challenge in a small community, that's not related, or it's not somebody that you knew from, you know, umpteen years ago, so.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: So, fortunately, Ruth filled all of those things.

DONAHUE: But you weren't conscious that you were looking for someone Jewish at the time?

BAKER: Um, I probably was. I probably was. So.

DONAHUE: So how did you, um, how did your own practice of Judaism differ, how did it, how does it differ from that of your parents, if at all?

BAKER: Uh, well, Reform has evolved. Reform Judaism has evolved over the 00:34:00forty-four years that I've been a member of the temple. Um, early on, there was very little Hebrew, um, there was mostly--services were mostly in English, the choir, which my mother was, for a long time, was the only participant, except for the holidays, um, sang a few songs, the congregation very rarely participated. As things have progressed over the years, I think there is, uh, a movement to get back to a more traditional service, uh, there is an increase in 00:35:00Hebrew, there is a more participatory singing program, uh, where the, the objective is to try to get the, the congregation to, um, be an active part of it. I'm old school, uh, um, I can do many of the prayers, I can follow along with many of the prayers in Hebrew. Um, I have no voice, so the singing is, um, almost verboten. My wife gives me dirty looks, so once our children were confirmed, which is the age of sixteen, the number of Friday night services that 00:36:00we went to has decreased. Um, I guess over the last thirty years, I can only remember one or two High Holiday services that I've missed, um, but I look at it as, I'm a past leader of the congregation. And there is a s--there is a support factor. To say, this is important to me, this should be important to the next generation, and if my contemporaries don't show up, then why should the next generation feel that it's important? As I have, uh, said for the last 00:37:00thirty-five years of leadership, I want to make sure that there's a Reform Jewish presence in Lexington for the next generations to come. And without the emotional support, without the, um, some financial support, without my presence, uh, I can't very well say that and not--if I don't show up and do things, then my words just are very hollow. So.

DONAHUE: Has the--do you feel that the temple in Lexington has, um, kind of followed along with the mainstream of Reform Judaism across the United States, or, or are there ways that it's, that it does things its, its own way and has 00:38:00kind of had to work out its own identity?

BAKER: Um, I'm not that familiar with other congregations, other than what I read. Uh, I do--I'm very close to a former rabbi that was here up until 2003, and I know how his congregation has evolved. And I would say, to a, a large degree, Temple Adath Israel has done the same, uh. I think that the, the movement as a whole has be--has adopt--has adapted, or adopted, a more traditional way of worshipping, uh, and uh, I think that we are part of that group.

DONAHUE: So ba--then, getting back to the question about how your Judaism 00:39:00differs from that of your parents, in a way it sounds as if you're a little more traditional than your parents were, is that what you're saying?

BAKER: Um, the congregation has moved that way. I don't know if Ruth and I have moved that way. Um, as I said, we don't go to Friday night services very often, uh, the service is different, it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just different. Uh, I don't have the same comfort level with the service as I did twenty years ago. That's just me. There are other people that have been here the same length of time, and have gone through the same slow changes, and are ecstatic with it. It's just whatever comfort level you have, and our comfort 00:40:00level is not, uh, as great as others, so.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: So I--yes, the Temple Adath Israel is more conservative today than when my parents first joined in 1946, as a family, as a couple, um, definitely more conservative today than, uh, when I was growing up. Um, but there's still a few holdouts of people who liked the, the old ways.

DONAHUE: And just to be sure I understand, the conservatism, is that because that's the, the way that all of Reform Judaism is moving--

BAKER: --I think so. And I think that, if you would ask members of the synagogue, I think, to a certain degree, they have moved to a more orthodox 00:41:00service. There's, they would still classify themselves as Conservative, but it's a more, um, orthodox service than, that it was twenty-five years ago. And I think part of it is the fact that there was a fear--this is my interpretation, never been said by anybody else--there was a fear that young people were being too assimilated within the larger community. And, if they didn't become immersed, to a certain degree, in Hebrew, and didn't feel comfortable, then the chances of them continuing to, being Jewish, whether Reform or Conservative, going forward, uh, were probably diminished. Uh, so. The Jewish community has, 00:42:00um, significant problems as far as numbers. And the assimilation rate, intermarried rates, are very high, and if the, if one or--th--one of the spouses is not, uh, very very comfortable, then the chances of that family remaining Jewish, uh, go down pretty significantly, I would think.

DONAHUE: There was a time, wasn't there--tell me if I'm wrong about this, but--when, um, interfaith couples wouldn't have been as welcomed, maybe, in the temple, as they are today? Isn't that right?

BAKER: Oh, I think that, um, well. I can only speak for the last thirty-five 00:43:00years, f--for me. And it has been very welcoming and, because there were, as I was growing up, there were many interfaith families, um, and I think that over time, they realized that th--th--the powers that be, the leaders of the movement, realized that they had to do even more, or they were going to lose a significant portion of the Jewish population to either not being involved, or becoming involved in another religion. So they, they wanted to reach out to the non-Jewish spouse, not necessarily to convert them, but for them to feel comfortable. And many of my contemporaries, uh, have non-Jewish spouses who have been very involved, um, never converted. Some have, but not, some haven't. 00:44:00But it was, um, I think that the, the welcoming portion of it, uh, was a critical factor in keeping some of them Jewish, and raising their families Jewish. So.

DONAHUE: Did conversations like that come up during your time on the board?

BAKER: Oh, most definitely.

DONAHUE: Um-hm?

BAKER: Most definitely. Because we had to try to figure out, um, what we could do as far as outreach, uh, there was always the question by the rabbis, as far as, uh, when a family was bar or batm--having a bar or bat mitzvah, what level of participation the non-Jewish spouse was going to be able to, how they were going to be able to participate. Um, so, and other than doing prayers, uh, the 00:45:00objective was to make them feel as comfortable, and include them in every facet of the service, and of the celebration, uh, as we could, other than that one particular portion. So when the Torah is passed from parents to child, the non-Jewish spouse, if they wanted to participate, was encouraged, um. For many years, the parents would sit on the Bima with their child, and the non-Jewish spouse was, it was almost insisted that they be there so that they could be supportive of their child, even if they weren't necessarily comfortable in, uh, 00:46:00the service itself. But if they've made it to the seventh grade by then, uh, there was a, a certain level of comfort, uh, for the non-Jewish parent.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: So.

DONAHUE: Yeah, I imagine if they're, if they're encouraging their child to have the bar or bat mitzvah, it means--

BAKER: Yeah--

DONAHUE: --that, suggests--

BAKER: --most definitely--

DONAHUE: --a certain level of commitment.

BAKER: Most definitely.

DONAHUE: And when you started being involved in the board, um, I read that, I read in the history book, um, the Centennial history book, uh, on Temple Adath Israel, that came out in 2003 or 2004--

BAKER: 2003.

DONAHUE: Um, that, in order to be president of the congregation, you had to serve, I believe, for maybe eight years--

BAKER: Forever--

DONAHUE: --on the board before that. (laughs).

BAKER: Forever. (laughs).

DONAHUE: Eight years on the board, and then two years as president, and then two years following that as past president.

BAKER: Well, the hope was that you would go through all of the different, uh, 00:47:00chairs of being an officer. So you would start as secretary, and you'd spend two years there, and two years as treasurer, two years as second vice, two years as first vice. And then, if you survived, then you would go in as president. Um, I skipped a couple of steps along the way, I was never secretary, I was never second vice president. Uh, but I did serve two years as president, in 1989 to 1991, and then the person that succeeded me, when I would have been immediate past president, only served one year, and he moved out of the community. So I ended up serving three years. And then, while I was still immediate past president, one of the, I guess the first, vice president, resigned, and they threw me back in as first vice president, so I ended up 00:48:00serving one more year as first vice president, two more years as president, two more years as--so for--there was a period of time, there, I think, for thirteen years, I was on the executive committee thirteen or fourteen years in a row. Um--

DONAHUE: That's a big chunk--

BAKER: --so it was a long--

DONAHUE: --a big chunk of your life. (laughs).

BAKER: --it was a long time. (laughs).

DONAHUE: Yeah.

BAKER: It was a long time. So.

DONAHUE: And uh, what, what, what did that commitment mean, uh, in, in terms of your, your life? Uh, year by year, how mu--how much of a commitment was it?

BAKER: Um, it was a lot. Uh, and my kids resented it.

DONAHUE: Hm.

BAKER: Um, I was president of the congregation before the age of forty, and when you're--that meant that I had a, uh, child that was ten, and a child that was seven. And when you spend a minimum of two nights a month away, and you go 00:49:00to committee meetings, uh, when you don't necessarily show up for some activities because you're either working or you're doing something at temple, um, it creates some resentment that Dad's being pulled away from something. And that's what happened, that's--no, I can't change it, that's what happened. Uh, we have we're--we're fortunate, now, in that the officers that were, the people that we're picking to be officers, most of the time their children are gone, or their children are a little bit older, so that there's a little more independence between that, the children, and their parents. Uh, but my kids 00:50:00resented it. No, no question about it.

DONAHUE: Hm.

BAKER: It impacted how they look at Judaism today, uh, because of the amount of time that I spent doing other things. So.

DONAHUE: Hm. How did it impact that?

BAKER: Neither one of them are involved. Both of them live in Lexington a moment, at the moment, uh, neither one of them, both of them are single, and that might have something to do with it. Um, our daughter was a member for several years, but she came away feeling it was more family-oriented, and there wasn't much for a single female. Uh, my son just moved back to Lexington, uh, seven months ago, and he's shown no inclination to, uh, want to get involved 00:51:00with the temple, so. I, I think that, uh, in this, when I was, when I came back from school, in the seventies and eighties, um, socially, there, this was a way for me to, uh, meet young families, young couples. And so Ruth and I were very excited about this possibility, because there were a lot of young families, our contemporaries, coming in--to Lexington at the same time. So we had a network of eight, ten, twelve families that we, or couples, that we saw, our kids grew up together, um, it's not that important to our kids now. So.

DONAHUE: Were those couples that you and Ruth were socializing with moving in for university jobs, or--

BAKER: For a variety--

DONAHUE: --variety?

BAKER: A variety. I mean, some of them were Lexingtonians, and once they got married, then, then the couples, um, became friends, uh, but there were some that came in from outside, either for--I mean, there was one that came to work for, uh, for the bank, uh, there was another one who went to, went to school here, graduated from law school here and, and stayed, he and his wife. Um, but many of them were, uh, native Lexingtonians that, uh, I grew up with, and once they got married, then it was just very convenient for families to get together. So.

DONAHUE: So for your children's generation, there just aren't as many people for them to socialize with that are their own age?

BAKER: Not through the Jewish community. Most of the kids that they, um, went 00:53:00to religious school with, no longer live in Lexington. Whereas, I was thinking about this as I was driving over, of my confirmation class, and there were probably fifteen or sixteen in my confirmation class, probably half of them still live in Lexington. It doesn't mean that I see any of them, but there was a higher percentage of, uh, my contemporaries who's, who remained in Lexington. Uh, and then there were people a couple years older, and a couple years younger, who have stayed in Lexington, either because of family businesses, or, um, they just took jobs in Lexington and just stayed. So.

DONAHUE: Do you feel like, um, part of that, the generational shift, has to do with, um, if people are committed to their Jewish identities, that they'd, that they're not, that they want to be in a, in communities that have a larger Jewish 00:54:00population? Do you th--or, do you have any insight about that?

BAKER: I think that's probably a true statement. Um, I think that many of my children's friends went away to school and didn't come back. They met someone, they got married, they took jobs in other communities, um. How observant, how involved some of their friends are in other communities, I would be reluctant to say, I'm just not, uh, I haven't followed the, tracked, of, of what they've done since they left Lexington, so I can't say. So.

DONAHUE: And then, when you said earlier that you feel that you've stayed involved with the temple primarily because you have invested so much in keeping 00:55:00Reform Judaism alive in this community, um, can you kind of describe what, what the heart of what you want to keep alive is, what part of that tradition means the mo--means the most to you?

BAKER: Um, I want the next generation of kids to appreciate a Jewish life. Without a Ref--and there's a difference between a Reform, and a Conservative, and an Orthodox, obviously--ah, and you have certain freedoms, being Reform, that you certainly don't have as, being, through, or--Orthodox. Uh, you have a few more freedoms than you do when you're being Conserv--in a Conservative background. But I, I want to make sure it's an option that's available. Um--

DONAHUE: Which of those freedoms are most meaningful to you?

BAKER: Um, haven't thought about that, that's an interesting question. Um--

DONAHUE: We can come back to it if you want--

BAKER: Okay, I'll have to think about that.

DONAHUE: Okay.

BAKER: But the, for a long time, not to change the subject, but for a long time, the temple was very small, 175 families, and then there was an explosion of new families coming in, y--to Lexington, as we discussed before. Either because of business, because of, uh, the university, the VA hospital brought many families, uh, to Lexington. And the congregation grew significantly. Uh, 00:57:001985, 1986, we finally reached 300 families. Well, for a congregation that had been sitting in the 175, 200 for a long time, that was a fifty percent increase, as far as families were concerned. Uh, when I was going to religious school, there were probably--or, well, when my kids were going to religious school--there were probably 140 kids in religious school, from Pre-K up to tenth grade. Now, we have sixty-five. The congregation is getting older, the influx of younger families has--I won't say stopped, but it's not as significant as it was years ago. The university is not attracting the same number of Jewish families that they were before, where there'd be, from the hospital or from the, 00:58:00uh, the rest of the university, uh, business is not expanding in Lexington, so there's a real challenge, as far as finding, or attracting, people to, to join the temple. So when you lose somebody, either because of death, or because they no longer want to be involved, that has a significant impact on a wide range of things, and because one of the issues that is most critical to me is the financial aspect of it, uh, when we lose members, uh, the financial support, your base, dwindles as well. And as we are aging, that population--my father's contemporaries, um, who have been extremely supportive, both financially, and 00:59:00spiritually, and so many other ways--five years from now, ten years from now, they're not going to be there. Who's going to be the n--who's going to step up to do the things that they have been doing for a long, long time? And, unless you develop a strong sense of being, of necessity, of responsibility, um, the chances of our being here, as we know it, as it's constructed today, twenty years from now, that's going to be a real challenge. So it, it, that's the important aspect, as far as I'm concerned, is finding a way to ensure that the next generation, and the generation after that, has the opportunity, the same opportunity that my parents and my grandparents afforded us. So.

DONAHUE: Do you see any paths to meeting that challenge?

BAKER: No. I really don't--(laughs)--um, um, I mean, we're no longer of childbearing age, so that's, that kills that idea--(laughs)--um, most of my contemporaries are the same way, uh, and too many of them, their children don't live in central Kentucky. Uh, so. So I'm not optimistic.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: Sadly.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. During your presidency, um, your two terms as president, what, you mentioned that part of your focus was, well, a lot of your focus was on welcoming people, and drawing more people in, and I think I read that you had some success with that, with increasing membership during those years?

BAKER: Oh, yes, there was no question about it. But there were several 01:01:00factors. One, we had a, um, young rabbi, John Adland, who had a, whose family was going, was, was aging as, along the way, so, uh, he was participating in the education of his children along with other children, um, there was an, an influx of young families, and young families attract other young families. Either by word of mouth, or coming from another community, and it was important to have their children educated. Uh, so the, the population of the congregation, certainly, grew during that time. Um, and in addition to that, the, my contemporaries became more successful--whether they were businessmen, or 01:02:00doctors, or whatever, or professionals of any type--and we certainly encouraged them to be more supportive, financially, than they were when they started, uh, how ever many years earlier. So we had a posi--we were in a position, uh, of financial stability, uh, we were able to put money aside for rainy days, uh, so. There, there were some things that we were able to do that we're not in a position to do at the moment, so. Y--it, it's sad when a religious entity has to look at more than just the spiritual aspect of it, but if you want a full-time rabbi, you have to have the finances to do that. And if you want to 01:03:00maintain a building, you have to have the finances to do that. And someone has to look at the business side of a religious entity, while others are looking at the spiritual side. And if you don't have the two, uh, and if they're not both working hand-in-hand, eventually one's going to collapse. Or both will collapse, I guess, so--(laughs)--yeah. So.

DONAHUE: Well, let's go back and talk, y--more about the ir--scrap iron business, iron and metal business. You mentioned, a while ago, the, coming, coming into the business, you started 1972 or 1973--

BAKER: Seventy-two--

DONAHUE: --and, um, how you had started to kind of get to know other families, 01:04:00from going to conventions, and meetings, and--

BAKER: --um-hm--

DONAHUE: --or maybe you could just go back to that time and talk about how it was, how you learned the reins of the, of the business, and also just, if you could reflect on, since the scrap metal business was so much at that time in a--among the Jewish population, or, or among the population of people who owned scrap metal businesses, so many, such a high percentage were Jewish, uh, maybe you could reflect on that, that kind of sense of community that you, you may have found there, in that business.

BAKER: Well, there are two different aspects, and I'll, I'll address the training portion first. Uh, Dad made a comment, on more than one occasion, that, if he had his rathers, I would have gone to work for someone else before 01:05:00coming back to Lexington. Uh, because it would have brought a fresh perspective back to Baker Iron and Metal. Uh, I was very fortunate that my father had a core group of people who had worked with, for him, for a long time. And they realized that, eventually, I was going to be their boss. And they made every attempt to teach me, and were very patient, and wanted me to understand, not only what they were doing but why they were doing it, and how it impacted the whole picture, so that I would have a better understanding of the running of the 01:06:00company. Uh, the scrap business is a cyclical business. There are times when we are very busy, where the industrial accounts are very busy because the economy is booming, and we don't have time to breathe, we didn't have time to breathe. There are other times that it, the economy slows down, and the demand for scrap goes way down, and then you're really scrambling to try to find things to keep people busy, so you're able to retain that core group of people for the next boom period. So that, uh, I was very, very fortunate, uh, that they realized that their future was tied to my future. And they wanted to make sure 01:07:00that, um, Baker Iron and Metal was going to be there for the next twenty, thirty years, to keep them--and in many instances, their children--there were some whose ch--ah, followed their father, fathers, into the business, um, so we had second generations, just as I was third generation, uh, there were some that were second generation that, because they felt this was a stable business, that they could s--bring their kids into.

DONAHUE: How many employees did you have?

BAKER: Well, it fluctuated, it--it, I think at the high point, we were probably just over a hundred, uh, at low points we were probably forty-five or fifty, uh, that included crane operators, truck drivers, people in the office, uh, people who cut steel all day long. I mean, most of the stuff we did was manual, uh, we 01:08:00had laborers who pushed wheelbarrows, drove forklifts. Uh, so we had a variety--we had maintenance people, so we had a variety of people and, depending on the cycle we were in, we would increase or decrease, uh, our head count to be able to take care of the volumes that we were, were getting. Um, as far as the people that I became friendly with, the people that, um, were helpful, many of the dealers the, that my father was friendly with, came from small towns, relatively small towns. Middletown, Ohio, who was, that family, the Cohen family, was the one that eventually bought us out. But then there was another family, in Zanesville, Ohio, whose families were going through the same, uh, 01:09:00challenges, that we were in Lexington. Um, and it, it, so we kind of gravitated--ah, Kenny and Jack were both a little bit older, but because my father was close to their fathers, it just, it was easy, and we would talk on the phone, uh, we would buy material from each other, sell material to each other, uh. In the case of the Cohens, uh, they had--(cough)--they had a, uh, an industrial account outside of Middletown, Square D, which was in Lexington at the same time--(clears throat)--so my father and Wilbur would compare notes. So then Kenny and I would compare notes later on, because we were both bidding on, uh, those accounts, and we were, uh, experiencing similar situations, as far as the types of material, and the best markets for those material, to sell them at 01:10:00things, things of that nature, so. And then there were, uh, families in Louisville, the Klempner family, uh, we didn't compete to a great degr--ah, degree with them, uh, there, there were, uh, there's one or two families in Cincinnati, but uh, for a ci--for a city the size of Cincinnati, it was interesting that the amount of industry in Cincinnati that generated steel wasn't that significant. In the scrap business, those people that are next to a steel mill have a real advantage over people who are landlocked, like Lexington, uh, so there was, there were two steel mills in Ashland, so the Mansbach family 01:11:00was able to expand their business because they had a consumer there, there was a mill in Cincinnati, uh, initially it was called Interlake, and then it became Newport Steel, there was a large mill, AK Steel, in Middletown , so the Cohens had something where they were bringing scrap back to the mill, versus bring it--for example, if we had an account in Frankfort, we had to bring the material back from Frankfort to Lexington, and then ship it to a steel mill outside the area. Where, if a dealer in Cincinnati had that same account, he was already transp--transporting that material back to th--similar area. And if you lived on a river, you could ship material on a river, uh, much cheaper than you could ship it by truck or by rail. So there were certain advantages that, uh, other 01:12:00dealers had that we didn't. And then, in the mid-2000s, uh, early 2000s, turn of the century, uh, the next generation of children didn't necessarily want to go in the business, so there became a number of families, businesses, that became available. And the big got bigger, so that's how, uh, it was a combination of things. My s--my children didn't want to go into the scrap business, uh, I had some health problems in 2000--or, 1999, and my father thought, well, he had had the same health problems, I had a heart attack in 1999, and he said, "Why put Ben through this even longer?" So that's when we decided that, uh, if we could find somebody to buy it, uh, then we would, we 01:13:00weren't wedded to it, to, for eternity, and get out and move on to something else. So.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. And--(coughs)--the Cohen family, did you, you described knowing them before, and you, and working with them some, um, were you, did you give them the chance, di--I mean, did you put out the word and far and wide and they just answered to it, or did you just make an offer to them?

BAKER: I think they came to us. Now, whether Dad sent a message to the Cohens, that he would be interested, whether they had approached him previously and 01:14:00said, "If you're ever interested, please let us know," I don't know all the inner workings of what transpired. Um, memory is something that you lose as you get older--(laughs)--um, so I just, I just know that, uh, they came to us in 2002, and we spent the next seven or eight months working out the logistics to, to do it. They had been buying up other small businesses, medium-size businesses, in the southern Ohio area, so it was not, uh, they were the logical person to, to exp--to expand into central Kentucky.

DONAHUE: When you talked about how the cities and t--towns that had, that were near steel mills, had advantages that you didn't have, uh, how did your business adapt to not having those advantages, and how did, how did you compete?

BAKER: Um, in certain situations, we couldn't. On ferrous, on steel and cast. On non-ferrous, it wasn't as much of a problem. But on ferrous items, um, certain situations, we couldn't. Uh, so if we lost an account, an industrial account, to, uh, the Klempners, or the Blues, or to the Man--or Mansbach, there wasn't much we could do about it.

DONAHUE: Was there ever a sense of, um, or--can you describe the sense, was 01:16:00there a sense of community among you and the other people in the metal business? Um, or was there a sense that you were competing with each other enough that you, or, or even that there was enough distance between you, physically, that you didn't get to form personal relationships?

BAKER: Um, I think, for the most part, the--you were selective. I think that there were certain geographical areas where people didn't bother you and you didn't bother them, uh, just because, after a while, transportation costs, if you're moving it by truck, just it got to be pro--prohibitive. So we wouldn't go into Cincinnati to pull scrap back to Lexington. It was not unusual for someone to do it the other way, but it wasn't--so the Cohens never really came 01:17:00down here, uh, the Mansbach would only come down to Morehead, or Mount Sterling, the dealers out of, uh, out of Louisville very rarely came into central Kentucky. But you h--have a dealer in Frankfort that was very competitive, and he was faced with very similar problems to, to what we were faced with. Um, so I think, as far as the relationship between the dealers in these small--in Middletown, and Zanesville, and Columbus, and--I think that, uh, it just evolved and there really wasn't, uh, I think that it was, we didn't necessarily go seek each other out, but when we saw each other, there was a mutual understanding of the challenges that one faces, being in a small business. So.

DONAHUE: I'm interested in what the atmosphere was like at the, at the conventions, and at the meetings, if you have Jewish b--if you have businesspeople from all over the place who, the majority of whom were Jewish, was there any particular, um, would, would somebody who just walked in have noticed, in some way, that there was a--

BAKER: No--

DONAHUE: There wasn't particular food that--

BAKER: --no--

DONAHUE: --was, like, or, or--

BAKER: --no. No, I think that the, um, I mean, I, I don't ever remember seeing shrimp being served, and we didn't have pork for any of the meals--

DONAHUE: --no bacon for breakfast? (laughs).

BAKER: No, but, uh, I think that, you know, most of those places, you end up having chicken, or you have steak, and go from there, but no, I think that it was just understood. Because there was a, you have no way of knowing if, how observant one dealer was, versus how unobservant another one was, so why offend 01:19:00anybody? You know. And then, and many of the people that they hired were not necessarily Jewish, uh, many of the, and because the, um, brokerage firms that would buy, that were s--that were, the middle man between the steel mill and the dealer, they weren't necessarily Jewish, so it--everybody was there for one objective, and that was either to learn, or for the social aspect of it, uh, it wasn't necessarily a religious ac--activity at all. There was none of that whatsoever.

DONAHUE: D--did you ever encounter conversations, or, um, or any g--hear any sign of people talking about maybe experiencing anti-Semitism in, within the business?

BAKER: No. No.

DONAHUE: You didn't experience anything l--like that yourself?

BAKER: No. I mean, it might have occurred, there might have been an industrial account that said, that weren't going to do business with us, but it was not overt. Uh, I mean, I didn't know what the thinking was on the dec--I didn't know what the decision-making process was when an industrial account made a decision to do business with X versus Y, uh. You know, they could say, "Well, your price wasn't as good," our price might have been better, but there was something else, another factor involved, I have no idea. But it was not overt.

DONAHUE: And your employees, would, did, was the, were the relationships--

BAKER: No.

DONAHUE: Pretty good? Did they express curiosity about Judaism?

BAKER: Very rarely, very rarely. It, we were, well. The gates were closed on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, but our employees still came to work. So it was 01:21:00not a day off for them, uh. Many of those, because we still had industrial accounts that we had to service, so it wasn't a situation that we could say, "Well, we're not going to be here today, uh, if you have scrap that, if you have a container that needs to be changed, we'll come by tomorrow," that just wasn't going to, that wasn't going to happen, so we had to be available, uh, for whenever industrial accounts needed us. Uh, so th--but it was never, I don't ever remember anybody ever questioning why you're not here, or anything of that nature. And I was at the office, uh, I worked at Baker Iron and Metal full-time for thirty-one years, and I don't remember it happening, so.

DONAHUE: Were there ever times, during Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, when you had to be interrupted f--to do something related to business?

BAKER: Um, well, because most people we were doing business were Jewish as, as 01:22:00well, so I mean that, you know. Um, I always went down to the office before services. Or I would end up going to the office at the end of the day, just to check in, to see what was going on, see if there were any questions that needed to be answered or things like that. But fortunately, we had, uh, great staff that, when push come to shove, they would always be able to, most of the time, they'd be able to solve a problem if it, if they needed to postpone the answer, then they could postpone the answer, but so. It wasn't a situation that I was pulled away from services and th--you know, for X, Y, or Z reason, no.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: Didn't have cell phones back then, so I didn't, so. Once I star--once I arrived at Ashland Avenue, no one, uh, no one bothered me very much, so.

DONAHUE: How, what kind of business relationship did you and your father have?

BAKER: Um, looking back on it, it was great. But when you're living it day-to-day, you always have strains. Uh, you always, when you're thirty, and you think that your way is better than the way it's being done, I'm sure I wasn't very diplomatic in some of the things that I did along the way. Um, but we had a great relationship, I was very fortunate.

DONAHUE: Did he remain vitally involved in the business, up until 2003?

BAKER: Very much so.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. So were you kind of co--ah--

BAKER: No, I was running the business. He would only come in for maybe two or three hours a day.

DONAHUE: Okay.

BAKER: Uh, but he wanted to know what was going on, he wanted to be involved in 01:24:00the, all the major decisions, when we were bidding an industrial account, he wanted to sit in on the conversation to, uh, to see if, uh, the margins were correct, and things like that. Uh. For the majority of ferrous contracts, you would sell the material the first of the month, and I would sit down with him and go over what we anticipated selling for that month, and things of that nature, so. Yes, he was very much involved. And I was glad to have the, the support and the guidance, and so.

DONAHUE: I don't think you said what your children's names are?

BAKER: My daughter is Erin, E-R-I-N, she is thirty-six. My son is Greg, and he 01:25:00was born in 1982, so he's now thirty-four.

DONAHUE: Okay.

BAKER: Wow is correct. (laughs).

DONAHUE: It's good. Okay. Um, let's take a short break. Okay. Um, wondered, going back to your childhood and youth, just to pick up on a couple questions that I neglected to ask you earlier: did you connect at all with the larger Jewish community in Louisville or Cincinnati, such as, you know, through youth groups, parties, um, et cetera?

BAKER: I went to camp, v--Reform Jewish camp in Zionsville, which is just north of Indianapolis, uh, I guess, starting my sophomore year. And that--sophomore year in high school--and that afforded me the opportunity to meet other young people from across Ohio, Indiana, West Virginia, parts of Tennessee. That was 01:26:00the, really, the first time. And that really was an eye-opener, as far as I was concerned. Uh.

DONAHUE: How so?

BAKER: Well, I think that, um, it broadened my horizons beyond New Circle Road. Uh, as far as meeting people, and experiencing, sharing, ex--sharing things with them, uh, so I would, I went to Indianapolis for New Year's Eve, a couple years, because I became very close with some people from Indianapolis, uh, I'd really looked forward to going back to camp, um, the two succeeding years after 01:27:00that. Uh, I was away at school, so I didn't get to see any of these people during the year, when there would be conclaves, uh, so this really, it's a time during the summer, really, was my only opportunity, unless I visited them when I was on vacation. So this, that was a, a real eye-opening opportunity for me.

DONAHUE: And when you talk about getting a sense of the world outside of New Circle Road, was it a spepe--specifically Jewish world that you--

BAKER: Yes--

DONAHUE: --were getting a sense of?

BAKER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, my p--um, my parents had shown, we traveled a lot when I was growing up, uh, so I had seen, um, things, but I had never seen it from a Jewish perspective. And when you go to a Jewish camp and you're immersed in, uh, in Judaism, and everybody there is Jewish, it, you just, you share experiences that you don't have at a, uh, non-religious camp, um, you don't have 01:28:00it when you are traveling around the United States, or when you're going to Europe, or anything like that, so.

DONAHUE: Can you remember any examples of the--

BAKER: --oh, just, uh, I remember Shabbat services Friday night, uh, where everybody had to wear white, and you'd just, uh, you know, you, it was, everybody sharing, doing the same thing. Uh, after every meal, we would sing songs, uh, in my first year, you know, it was all foreign to me, uh, but by the, my third year, it, it just was very natural, and, and very exciting. I, I really looked forward to, uh, to doing that. Um, let's see, what else. Oh, it's just, um, Hebrew wasn't that critical, so it, that wasn't as major a part 01:29:00of it, but it just, it was just doing things with other Jewish kids that was so exciting for me. Because I really hadn't had that opportunity, other than going to religious school, uh, I certainly didn't get it at Deerfield, so this was a real opportunity for me.

DONAHUE: So when you went to Shabbat services at Temple Adath Israel, when you were a young person, it w--it was different, was it different primarily because you weren't just with other people in your age group, or were the rituals themselves very different?

BAKER: Oh. Looking back on it, I would say it was just the age group, um, this was, wasn't yesterday, it was the day before, it was a long time ago. (laughs).

DONAHUE: Right.

BAKER: So I, I'm guessing it was just sharing it with people my age that was so exciting. So.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. About how many people your age were there in--

BAKER: Oh, there were probably--

DONAHUE: --in the temple community?

BAKER: A 150, maybe 200.

DONAHUE: That's at the, in, in Indiana--

BAKER: Um-hm--

DONAHUE: --in the Indiana camp?

BAKER: Um-hm.

DONAHUE: And then how many were there, roughly, in the temple community?

BAKER: Oh, it would be maybe, there were probably fifty or sixty that would come to Shabbat services, but I would say the vast majority of them were, uh, my parents' contemporaries, or, you know, fifteen years older than me. The number of my contemporaries, of my classmates that would come on any given Friday night would be very few, and even if it was for the High Holy Days, you wouldn't 01:31:00necessarily sit with them, you would sit with your family. So you weren't sharing with your classmates, you were sharing with your family. Uh, when I went to camp, I was sharing with people my age. And so.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. And did you ever, at, at a certain point, get a sense of, um, Jewish, or get, get very interested in Jewish history and Jewish identity, sort of internationally, and what was going on with Jewish life in a, on a wider scale?

BAKER: Um, the Six-Day war happened when I was--it was either 1967 or 1968, I think.

DONAHUE: 1967, I think.

BAKER: Yeah. So I was seventeen. And y--I became more aware of what was 01:32:00happening in Israel. The Holocaust really wasn't discussed a great deal, it was still too fresh in people's minds. Um, so this really was the first international incident, Jewish international incident. I can still remember, uh, the Cuban Missile Crisis from 1963 or 1962, whenever it was. Um, seemed--probably 1963, because my brother was away at school, and my parents were discussing, he was in, he was in Massachusetts as well, and they were discussing if they were going to bring him home, because they, was he going to be safer in Lexington than he would be in Massachusetts, in case something really serious happened? Um, but the Six-Day war, really, was the first Jewish 01:33:00international event that transpired. And then, obviously, the, the massacre, the Olympics in Munich, uh, was another, uh, significant international incident that, um, was very impactful on a young mind, so. And then you just, I don't say that I became immersed in it, but I became aware. And, because I liked to read about current events, uh, it was, uh, just natural that I would gravitate towards stories about Israel, what was happening. Uh, so.

DONAHUE: And have you always followed Israel closely since then?

BAKER: Um, I would say that I en--I read the articles, I listen to the stories, 01:34:00um, we visited Israel, and--(sighs)--eight--in 1993, 1994. Um, and I like to read articles about places that I have been because I have a much better frame of reference, so when, when Ruth and I have traveled to some, places that you wonder where they are on the map, and I see a headline from that particular country, I'll read the article, whereas I might not have read it prior to going? Well, the same thing's true with Israel. I, I have a certain understanding of geographic places and things, so I, I get an, a feel of what's going on. And 01:35:00then, when you read the article, you have a, it has a, it's more impactful to me than reading an article about Vietnam, or Indonesia, or something like that.

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: And, obviously, there's a, uh, religious aspect to it that I don't have on sev--some other places, but because I was fortunate enough to visit that, uh, it has, has some bearing to it.

DONAHUE: How have issues of Israel and Zionism played out in the community, at the temple? Is there, is there a sense, an ongoing conversation about those issues at the temple?

BAKER: Uh, I'm sure there is. There are certain members of the temple that are much more strongly attached to Israel than I am, who feel very strongly, either 01:36:00one way or the other, about politics in Israel. Uh, I am more liberal in my thinking than some others, and so the, there are some people that I grew up with who are very, very conservative, and who, um, feel very strongly that Israel needs to, uh, squash their neighbors--that might be too strong a word, but uh--and who feel that they should be expanding to protect their citizens. Um, we don't necessarily have conversations about Israel, because they know where I stand, and I know where they stand. (laughs).

DONAHUE: Um-hm.

BAKER: And there's no reason to get into adversarial relationships if you don't 01:37:00have to. At least I don't, so.

DONAHUE: What about within your family, have conversations about--

BAKER: I think that--

DONAHUE: --about Israel, and Israel's fate, been important?

BAKER: R--no, it, it, I think all of us are pretty much like-minded, uh, as far as my immediate family's concerned, and uh, it very rarely comes up. I think, of the, of the four kids, I think I'm the only on--only one that's been to Israel. Surprisingly. Uh, my s--brother and sisters and I have been very fortunate to see a lot of the world, but I think I'm the only one that's been to Israel.

DONAHUE: Why was it important to you to go?

BAKER: Um, our rabbi was going to lead a tour.

DONAHUE: This was Rabbi Adland?

BAKER: Um-hm. And his children and our--and our children were within shouting distance of each other, age-wise, and there were another family that had a, or 01:38:00Harriet Rose's son, and wife, and daughter were going, so it just, it seemed the right time. My children were fourteen and eleven, and it just seemed the right time to let them experience this, uh. And I felt going with the rabbi was a much better way than us trying to do it on our own, he was going to show us things that we would never have found. And it was correct, so.

DONAHUE: Did that have any impact on your Jewish identity?

BAKER: Um, probably. Um, I think it just, um, it made certain things more real--just as when I went to camp and I was immersed with living a Jewish life for, for ten days, or two weeks, whatever it was--because Israel has a 01:39:00preponderance of Jews, you, you live the life, whether you want to or not. Uh, you just accept the fact. I re--I remember talking to people who come from certain parts of New York City, and joining a congregation wasn't important to them, because they were just living a Jewish life. All of their friends were Jewish, all of their neighbors were Jewish. Well, when you experience it in Israel, just about everything you're doing is from a Jewish perspective. Uh, so I, I think that it, you would be pretty hard not to come away with an enhanced experience, and, and your Judaism, uh, enhanced as well.

DONAHUE: Did you ever feel drawn to being immersed in, in that kind of 01:40:00experience yourself?

BAKER: No, no.

DONAHUE: So no second thoughts about making a home in--

BAKER: No--

DONAHUE: --Kentucky?

BAKER: No. No. I was well-established when we were there in 1994, and so.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. Um, do you have any other vivid memories of Jewish life and ritual from your early days that just st--stands out?

BAKER: Um, I have s--I have pictures in my mind that my parents took, of consecration. When I was five years old, and my--(coughs)--grandfather, and my father, were on the Bima with this tiny little five-year-old kid, and my mother 01:41:00was singing in the choir, so here were three generations of, of Bakers that, uh, were deeply involved--or, two generations, and then little me--ah, in the congregation. It, I remember that. Uh, there are little things. I mean, we had a, uh, teacher by the name of Edith Will, of third grade, and we made menorahs out of clay, and I kept that menorah probably until I was twenty. It was just a face, and it was ugly, but it was, um. I remember my bar mitzvah, uh, there are just, you know, there are just, the things that you can flash back on that are, are incidents in your life. Now, whether they were because I have 01:42:00seen photographs, and so the photographs keep, keep reminding me of them, or it's just that certain things are engrained, I have no idea. I don't know how the mind works, but that's it. So.

DONAHUE: Mm. Was your bar mitzvah a significant occasion for you?

BAKER: I was glad it was over.

DONAHUE: (laughs).

BAKER: Um, it was a, it was a challenge. As I said, my Hebrew isn't very good, uh, I don't like sitting down, or standing up in front of people and talking, uh, so to get up and lead the service, um, even though what we did in 1963 was nothing compared to what the, the kids are doing now, uh, it still was a, uh, I wasn't very comfortable. In the process--(laughs)--I'll leave it at that. So.

DONAHUE: Do you have any grandchildren?

BAKER: I do not.

DONAHUE: Yeah, you said, your, your two children are single.

BAKER: I have two granddogs, but--three granddogs--but I don't have any grandchildren.

DONAHUE: Granddogs? (laughs). And did you h--have anything to add about your approach to giving your children a sense of their Jewish heritage, and Jewish identity, and how you passed that along to them?

BAKER: No, I, I think that, um, the only comment I would make is that I gave them the tools. What they did with it after that, once they ma--matured, that was their decision. Uh, we didn't feel, by f--we encouraged, but we didn't 01:44:00insist. Because it's, it's their lives. And um, so. All we did was we gave them th--the tools. So.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. Did the trip to Israel have--

BAKER: --I don't--

DONAHUE: --an, an impact on them?

BAKER: As far as my daughter was concerned, it was another notch on her belt. Because she likes to count countries, and so this was another one that she could cross off her list. I hate to say it that way, but. The contest, and the original contest, was to get to all fifty states. And now that everybody's accomplished that, now they're trying to see who can catch up with their mother as far as countries are concerned. And our daughter's the only one that's competing, because everybody else said, "Forget it." (laughs).

DONAHUE: But the mind is such a complex thing, it might come out in some, some 01:45:00other way later.

BAKER: That's true, that's very true.

DONAHUE: And they, they attended, did they attend, um, Sunday school at the temple--

BAKER: Um-hm--

DONAHUE: --as well, and?

BAKER: Both of them were bar or bat mitzvahed--

DONAHUE: Um-hm--

BAKER: --both of them were confirmed--

DONAHUE: Um-hm--

BAKER: --um, yes.

DONAHUE: And you talked about how, by the time, in more recent years, there were, there were not as many, you had to, for the High Holy Days, you had to invite friends around the table because there wasn't as much family.

BAKER: Correct.

DONAHUE: Was that the case when you were raising your own children?

BAKER: No, because, um, my mother was still alive, uh, I had aunts, cousins that were still in Lexington, that were mobile, uh, but uh, some of those cousins have moved away, and some of those aunts and uncles have passed away. So.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. Do you think your, uh, children, did they, um, get a--as invested in the holidays themselves, like that they would look forward to them, or did they, did you have a sense that the holidays were meaningful to them in the same way that they were to you?

BAKER: Looking back, I would have to say no. It wasn't as meaningful to them. I think they were doing it because we did it, but as the opportunity has afforded themselves, afforded itself for them, uh, they don't participate. I mean, neither one of them were--came to Passover. Uh, my son was out of town, but my daughter didn't come to Passover at our house. Um, so.

DONAHUE: I, somebody else we interviewed for this project talked about how, 01:47:00because of living in a majority-Christian culture, that Christmas was sort of challenging for him, because there's this sort of, the, the decorate your house phenomenon, and the have a Christmas tree phenomenon, that there was some social pressure to do those things. Um, was that ever a factor for you, or--

BAKER: It really wasn't--

DONAHUE: --for your children?

BAKER: I mean, we, my wife always made a point of decorating for Hanukkah, um, and my son was married for about three years, and, uh, she wasn't Jewish, they were married by a rabbi, by John Adland, as a matter of fact, but I think that, during those years, there might have been a Christmas tree up, um, I didn't object, I couldn't say anything, my wife who, uh, grew up in more--many of my wife's friends were, uh, not Jewish, so she always was around a Christmas tree 01:48:00when she was much younger, so to her it wasn't as difficult as it was for me, um, but, as I said, we gave them the tools, and what they do as adults is what they're going to do. I can't change it. So. But no, I, I don't think that there was much pressure on us, as far as Christmas.

DONAHUE: Yeah. And then have you had any kind of relationship with the synagogue? I know your grandfather was a founder of it.

BAKER: Well, I was listening to my father's response to that. And when I was growing up, I knew practically no one from the synagogue. Um, there were a few people that I knew because they were old Lexingtonians, and their families had 01:49:00kind--our families had kind of crossed paths, and so I, there were a few. But there weren't very many. Um, a--and it's really sad, for a community the size of Lexington, the Jewish community the size of Lexington, that there were these two entities whose paths very rarely crossed. That's not the case, now, because I think the, the religious schools do more things together, and I think there's a--more activities between the two congregations than there once was. And a lot of it depends on the rabbinic leadership. If the rabbinic leadership, if they don't, if there's not a good relationship between the two rabbis, it's a challenge for the two congregations to do things together. Uh, the old Lexington, it was us and them. There's an influx of new families who don't have 01:50:00the history from forty, fifty, sixty years ago, and they say, "This is foolish. We are too small, our kids need to know each other, we need to interact." So there's a much better relationship, today, than there was when I was growing up, no question about it.

DONAHUE: Was that an issue that you addressed during your presidency of the, of the board?

BAKER: (sighs). Not really. We had our own problems, and we didn't, you know, I, that was not a h--that was not one of the priorities that I had. So.

DONAHUE: Um-hm. What about involvement with other Jewish organizations in the 01:51:00area, like the Jewish Federation, were you involved with--

BAKER: --well, when I was growing up, Federation was strictly a fundraising entity. Uh, and it's only been in the last twenty-five years that, uh, they have a camp, they have a social worker, uh, they have an executive director, and they've expanded their horizons, as far as what they were, what they're doing, um. But, as I said, for the vast majority of the time, it was just a, um, fundraising, uh, opportunity. And it was t--pretty much run by, uh, local or individual members, it wasn't run by, uh, an organization as it is now, where they have their own board, and their own executive director, and uh, things of that nature, so. For--I mean, in a community of our size, there're only so many 01:52:00people that are willing to be leaders. And the Federation, from my perspective, was draining people from being either temple leaders or synagogue leaders. Uh, so during my time in the late eighties and, and nineties, I think there was a certain adversarial relationship, because if they found somebody that was talented enough to be a leader, they didn't necessarily share. Because there wasn't enough time, if somebody was working, to be involved with Federation, and be involved with temple as well. And it--

DONAHUE: Yeah, that's an interesting point.

BAKER: And, and that made it very difficult, as far as training leaders. I became president of the congregation in, in the, when I was thirty-eight, because the congregation, our congregation, Temple Adath Israel, split over a 01:53:00rabbi. And many of those young families that were, should have been in positions of leadership, went to the synagogue. And so all of a sudden there was a void among leaders in our congregation. And that's the reason I commented that, now that we've gotten people other than Jonathan Miller, who's in his forties, other than getting people, uh, we're getting back to the people, getting people in their fifties and sixties, which is, uh, much better as far as I'm concerned. Because they're just, there are only so many ways that somebody in their thirties can be pulled. Well, if you, if Federation is trying to pull people, and the temple's trying to pull people, and the, the pool of prospective leaders is shrinking, then you can see that it just, makes it difficult. So 01:54:00sometimes it becomes adversarial, which is unfortunate.

DONAHUE: What was the split over the rabbi that you mentioned?

BAKER: Um, this man's name was Bill Leffler, uh, there was uh, there were some families that were not happy with the way he was working with the youth, and that just spilled over to a variety of other issues. Um, Bill came when I was fifteen, because I was confirmed by Bill, and he resigned when I was treasurer of the congregation, so that was 1985, 1986, uh, so he was here for thirty years. And it split the congregation, uh, there was not another congregation 01:55:00formed, which happens in many cities, but we lost some really good people who should have been officers of the congregation. So it sped up the process, for me and many of my contemporaries, and it's taken us fifteen years to work through that, to finally get to, uh, some wiser people who've had--some more mature people, let's put it that way. (laughs).

DONAHUE: Okay. Um, is there anything that you would change about your relationship with Judaism, looking back?

BAKER: (pause). Not that I'm aware of. Um, I was immersed when it was critical 01:56:00for my ch--family, uh, I have--Ruth and I have kind of withdrawn from certain aspects of it, uh, the educational aspect is not important, as important to me, now, as it was twenty-five years ago, um, the social aspect is important, uh, but our f--most of our other friends don't participate. They're members, but aren't necessarily active either, and, I remember when I was in leadership, and I was seeing what my parents were, were doing, and how they were pulling back, and their contemporar--their friends were pulling back, and I said, "This isn't fair to us, we need them," well, now I'm doing exactly what my parents did, so. It's unfortunate. But I can't change it.

DONAHUE: But you gave, you gave a lot of, a lot of your life.

BAKER: Well, I'm still on the board.

DONAHUE: Oh, okay.

BAKER: Thirty-five years later.

DONAHUE: Yeah.

BAKER: So.

DONAHUE: Is there anything else that I haven't asked you about, that you'd like to add?

BAKER: No. You've done a wonderful job.

DONAHUE: You've done a wonderful job. (laughs).

BAKER: Well, I don't know about that. You've done a wonderful job--(laughs)--so.

DONAHUE: Thank you so much for coming, and spending the time today.

BAKER: You're very welcome. How does one get a copy of this or, you said you, it was available on their website, or whatever?

DONAHUE: Yeah.

BAKER: How does one do that, so that if someone in my family was foolish enough to say, "We would like to see your interview," that uh.

DONAHUE: Yeah. Are you still recording? Guess we, guess we could stop and have this conversation.

[End of interview.]