00:00:00DONAHUE: Okay. It's July 1st, 2016. I'm Arwen Donahue. And I'm with John
Rosenberg. This is an interview for the Jewish Foundation for
Historical--sorry-the Jewish Fund for Historical Excellence oral history
project. And, uh, thank you, very much for coming today, from
JOHN ROSENBERG: --how you do, uh
DONAHUE: --from Prestonsburg, Kentucky.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Am I gonna talk to you or
DONAHUE: --you're talking to me
JOHN ROSENBERG: --talk to the camera?
DONAHUE: Yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --talk to you
DONAHUE: --talk to me. Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Okay. Good.
DONAHUE: That'll be easier. So, uh, would you just say for the record your name
and your date of birth and where you were born?
JOHN ROSENBERG: 'Kay. My name is John Rosenberg. And I was born in Magdeburg,
Germany, on October 7th, 1931.
DONAHUE: Um-hm. And how important was Judaism in your family? What role did
religion play
JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, it was
DONAHUE: --in your early life
JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, it was very important. Because my father had been
educated as a Jewish schoolteacher. And, uh, so he, before schools were
00:01:00segregated--So the, the--my growing up as, uh--up to age seven, he was--he
assisted the rabbi in that community with services and he worked in a Jewish
welfare office. And we were a kosh Mother kept a kosher household. And it was
not an Orthodox family but Ju Judaism and, and maintaining the Jewish customs
and rituals were a significant part of our life, more so with my father's
background, because his mother--uh, his mother's father, his grandfather, and
his great grandfather were rabbis. So his mother--there was a very strong
tradition of Judaism in his house. And he had, uh, eight brothers and sisters.
00:02:00He was from a large family--which wa--where--which was very--a very religious household.
DONAHUE: What was your father's name?
JOHN ROSENBERG: His name was Rudolf. They called him Rudi. And he had a brother
named Zemi, Sam, and his sisters, Martha, Ola, Yetta, uh--let's see--Ellie Who
have we forgotten. Four. Zemi. He had a brother who died. Uh, I may have left
one out. But
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but it was a large--a very large family--and, uh--that--you
know, that had, because of this rabbinical background, even though his
father--his father was a, uh, merchant he was a--he had a ju--he was a junk
00:03:00dealer. And he sold antiques. Unfortunately, he died, uh, at an early, uh, age,
when my father was quite young. So that left his mother, Teresa, to raise these
children, and, uh, which was a big task. And, in fact, uh, at one point, I think
during his high school years, he was sent to an orphanage, uh, Hanover, where he
finished high school--and then went on into the seminary. So he had a very
complete Jewish education. In fact, as he tells it, on one of our own little
oral histories of the family, the difference between him--uh, his education, as
a Jewish schoolteacher, and someone who wants--would have become a rabbi is
basically you had to go to become what we wou--in this country would call a PhD.
00:04:00So the rabbi's name--the rabbi was referred to as Dr. Wilde--and was W i l d
e--important in our house. I mean, so he was my father he was, at that point,
already in his seventies, I think, had a long, white, imposing beard.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --he conducted the services. So he was in charge o' the
congregation and had been for a number of years. And my father was sort of his
right-hand person. If he didn't conduct the service, my father would conduct the
services, at some po--at different times. So Dad I think I mentioned in my
original interview you could--you could tell my father a phrase in the f--in the
Old Testament in Hebrew and he could continue with the rest of it. He knew
a--the whole--really, the whole Bible by heart--
DONAHUE: --yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --astounding to me.
DONAHUE: Yeah, yeah--(laughs)--very astounding. So let me just say for the
record that, that we--you and I did an interview together, uh, in 1999 and 2000
00:05:00and that interview, uh, in edited form, is in the book This Is Home Now:
Kentucky's Holocaust Survivors--so that I'll make--uh, uh, be a reference for
s--'cause in this interview we're going to kind of focus more on Jewish life.
But a more complete, uh, story of your life will be in that book. Uh, but, also,
what was your mother's name?
JOHN ROSENBERG: My mother's name was Gerta--uh, Schubach was her last name, S c
h u-b a c h. And she was the daughter of a butcher. She has two sils--two
sisters still living. Mother passed away, uh, th--in--2011--
DONAHUE: --yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --12--2011, in Raleigh, at ninety--Well, had, uh, turned
ninety-nine? Ninety-eight, ninety ei--nine--uh she was born in nineteen o--1911.
My father was born in 1901. My mother was born in 1911. I was born in 1931.
00:06:00
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --so, uh, this was a small--she wa--uh, they lived in a small
town called Idar-Oberstein, in the Rhine Valley, along the river--is called the
Nahe River. And, uh, her, her father, as I said, owned a--and mother h--owned a
butcher sho--butcher store. And they had, uh, two other--she has two sisters.
And they grew up in this town. Uh, the butcher, uh, shop was not a kosher they
did--they slaughtered their animals right there. But, uh, the way my mother
would tell it is, uh, my grandfather, on her side, re realized at an early age
that he couldn't make a living if he was just a kosher butcher. And, uh, uh, so
she grew up in that family, in this small town. It--I mean, it isn't like
Prestonsburg, probably 15,000, 20,000. It's called Idar-Oberstein. On one side
00:07:00o' the river, it's called Ida on the other side o' the river, it's called
Oberstein. She was on the Oberstein. It's a very picturesque little community.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So they went to school and--uh, and through their, uh, public
schools there. And my father came to that town as a--as, as his earliest--I
think he may have had one short-term assignment--but he went there as a
religious schoolteacher. And religion was taught, as I understand it, outside of
the school. So during the school day, at various times, the children would have
the excuse to have religious instruction. And he taught her, as a
sixteen-year-old or fifteen, whatever. He came there and was there for two--came
back--uh, h--and forth a couple times. I think he he, he was there for close to
two years. And then he was--he got another position, in the larger town where I
00:08:00was born, called Magdeburg. And he came back and he courted her. And so I guess,
by the time when they were married, in 1930, she woulda been nineteen. But she
was his student in religious class. And then he actually took his meals with her
family, uh--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --twice a day, I suppose. I'm not really sure whether he came
every night. But he had rented a place there. And so that's, that's how they got
to know each other.
DONAHUE: Uh, and you have one brother. Is that right?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Have a brother Harry, who was born in 1936--he--in April. He's
four and a half years younger. And then I have a sister, Teresa-Joan, who was
born in this country--
DONAHUE: --okay--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --in 1946. And they are now in R--both in Raleigh, still living.
DONAHUE: Okay. Um-hm. And would you describe your memories of the--the Nazi
00:09:00regime came to power in 1933, when you were very--too young to remember. So you
came of age, uh, under Nazism in Germany. Uh, can you describe how you became
aware of what was happening with the Nazis?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I wish I--you know, I wish I remembered more. But I, I, I
think my s--uh, my strong memories are of my parents and just being with them,
and on some outings to the park. And some o' these things are from photographs
I've seen. But, uh, you know, uh, I'm not sure that I was that aware of the
shops that had, "No Jews allowed," and wearing a star. I remember that, when I
started s--by the time I started school in the first grade, Hitler had, uh,
00:10:00decreed that Jewish students would no longer go to school with, uh, other, Aryan
children. And so the--my father, actually, and one other gentleman, who--I think
his name was Hermann Schpiers--started--were the first two teachers and
organized the school for Jewish schoolchildren--so, when I--which wasn't too far
from our house. And so I was in my father's first-grade class, for over a year.
I don't really have very good memories of having--of what we did in that
particular school. Uh, and it must have been--it was pretty difficult, I think.
I--uh, my nephew, Dan Rosenberg, who teaches at--who's at, uh--who's on the
faculty in University of Oregon, has done a lot of research about this period.
00:11:00And with--and he was--ha--was in, uh, correspondence with a fellow in Australia,
who wrote a PhD thesis about what was called the Magdeburger Jews. The Jews,
when things got bad, went to--or didn't just come to the United States. They
went to China. They went to Australia. They went to wherever they fou--could
find a home. And, uh, a fair--apparently, a fairly large number of Jews from
Magdeburg, uh, went to Australia. And this young man, in, uh--for his PhD
thesis, did an oral history of the Magdeburger Jews, that were there, and
interviewed quite a lot of them. And many of them described what was
news--really news to me--was that they were--uh, were treated very--the--badly
in the schools, as
DONAHUE: --h
JOHN ROSENBERG: --Hitler came to power and as this Aryan attitude of Jews being
00:12:00second-class citizens or not being allowed to be citizens at all took hold, and
that they called the Jewish students names and they sang, uh, nasty songs about
Jewish students. And so I'm sure that, to some extent, they were very glad to
see the segregated--the Jewish schools begin, so they wouldn't have to put up
with this sort of thing. But, of course, that only lasted a couple of years,
until Kristallnacht, when the--when the synagogues were burned down and when, I
think, this, this--that school system probably collapsed. Because wh--I, uh--I
don't think it continued after we left.
DONAHUE: Right.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Although some Jews were there, uh, for some time. They
di--couldn't all get out.
DONAHUE: And, uh, Kristallnacht you remember very clearly, right?
JOHN ROSENBERG: I do remember Kristallnacht very clearly. And some of it's
probably been brought back since the pictures--but I--that we've seen and that
you're familiar with too. Uh, Kristallnacht was, uh, November 11th, 1938. And,
00:13:00uh, we had in our home, at the time, although I didn't remember this
initially--again, my--uh, my father's mother was living with us and, apparently,
my father's brother. Uh, and he--whether he was around or not, uh, I'm not sure.
Because my recollection is being in this tight family circle, and having us all
go outside into this courtyard, when the Nazis came, uh, knocked on our door,
our apartment door, and had everybody go outside. We were living in
the--in--right next door to the synagogue. And, uh, uh, as I said in the earlier
book, they rousted us out. And it was early. And I was standing there with my
00:14:00mother and my little brother, who was--she was holding--he was a little over two
years old, at the time--and my dad. And they w--burned down the--they were
burning all the books. They brought the Torahs and all the prayer books into
courtyard and made a bonfire. And then they dynamited the interior of the
synagogue. And I think what I remember so well, as I--uh, because I had this
picture in my mind, before I saw the photographs that we--eventually that my
nephew found--was the way that upstairs balcony had collapsed, and, uh, after
the bonfire, when we went in later. But I remember being with mother. Uh, I
don't remember that my mys-myself. Whether my father or my mother passed this
on--I think it was probably my mom who, who asked the Storm Trooper, "Are you
gonna kill us?" And then he said he didn't know. I don't remember tha--those
00:15:00words. I do remember the next morning I told some o' these children in the
schools that I was--uh, spent the night on a mattress, when we went back into
the apartment, that everything had been torn pretty badly upside down and they
ransacked the apartment and, uh, made a big mess. So they took a mattress and
put it on the floor in the kitchen, where I spent the night. And I guess I woke
up--or, when this--when the Storm Troopers came to arrest my father, the next
morning, I mean, I remember that pretty vividly, that he was there. And then my
mother said, "Can you wait, so I can make" my dad "a, a sandwich"--and, uh,
running after him down the street, after she--I mean, they waited a little bit
but they finally took him away. And, as you know, he said--well, my mother said,
"Here, take this sandwich to him." I ran after him down the street. I, I
00:16:00remember that pretty well. I don't remember too much about what happened after
that. I mean, uh, my mother, uh, was left to figure out what to do. And I think
many of the Jewish--Because they arrested all the Jewish men or many of the
Jewish men. They arrested over 200. I mean, I'm not sure wh--because there were
about two--uh, several thousand Jews in Magdeburg. So who was actually
arrested--I mean, they arrested the folks--my father and the rabbi and various
members. Whether they were the professional or who they actually took, the 200
that they did take--and, uh, so she, uh, by her accounts, spent differ--and I
guess they sent me, right away, to my aunt in Frankfurt, uh, my father's sister,
00:17:00uh, who was married, uh, to another fella, named DeFriese. And they had a son my
age, named Bubi, that I've mentioned. But, uh, whether I was with Mother a day
or two or she sent--uh, they came and got me or even whether my--uh, uh,
somebody too took me there. Now, my father and his brother, uh, were both
arrested and both in Buchenwald. So they must have been together. But I don't
have a good recollection of my Uncle Sam, Zemi--Uncle Sam--being--uh, being
there. So, I mean, he--it just wasn't, I guess, that important to me--as my own family.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, and my, my, uh--obviously, my grandmother was there
also. I don't remember them being in the courtyard--uh, and I've really
00:18:00ever--but they had to--accordin' to my mother, they were.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And so that's the w--that's the way that was.
DONAHUE: And you mentioned that much of your extended family that you were with
in Frankfurt were later killed.
JOHN ROSENBERG: The family--that family, uh, the DeF--yeah. My--the two
sisters--two o' the sisters--I mean, the, the, uh, the, the town of Lehr, where
they--I didn't mention the name o' the town. My father grew up and my
father--grandfather grew up in a town called Lehr, which is in the province, uh,
Friesland, East Friesl--and it's East Friesland, which is on the coast, on the
northwest coast of Germany. There is a group of island called the Frisian
Islands. And it's very close to the Dutch border. So both of--two of the sisters
married two f--two men named DeFriese. They were not related. Uh, then
00:19:00there--another sister, Yetta, married a gentleman named Van der Wyk. All very
Dutch names--uh, Jewish. And I think, uh, they lived right on the border. I'm
not sure. I don't know much about--Uh, we know a little bit about their
families. I know that Martha--uh, Dan DeFriese had a brother name--had a brother
who was in the area also. But in any event, uh--How'd I get off on this? What
were you, uh--
DONAHUE: --well, uh, just was mentioned that you had said, in, uh--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --oh
DONAHUE: --in that earlier interview that
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, uh
DONAHUE: --much of your extended family had been murdered
JOHN ROSENBERG: --right--
DONAHUE: --in the Holocaust.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, we know that the family that I stayed with--So we stayed
with, uh, Bubi's family in, uh, Frankfurt, uh, fo--until my father and
brother--and his brother were released. They came back. And then they picked me
00:20:00up and took me to Magdeburg. And Daddy had a--they had thirty days to get outta
the country. And so, uh, why they went and nobody else--so my father had spent a
day or two in Berlin, in line, finally, uh, getting the proper visa applications
and approvals to be able to go out of the country. And so h--they went, then,
to--he and my mother and I and our family and Harry, my brother, went to
Rotterdam. Uh, in Rotterdam there was another--one of his sisters, uh, Mary, was
married and had four--she had four children--married to a businessperson, who
was--at various times we called him a stockbroker. He sold furs and various
00:21:00things--but was--they were--lived--they were fairly well off.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: In fact, my mother, while they were there, would relate that she
was--went babysitting, at p--wh when we were--in--we went t--when we went to
Rotterdam, we stayed in this large--it was called a D Detention Center. The
Dutch government had opened a number of Detention Centers--peop--where Jewish
refugees could stay. But getting back to Frankfurt. So that family ultimately
was--went, uh, either Auschwitz or Buchenwal--they were killed. And, uh, the two
families that I had mentioned earlier, Martha DeFriese and Van der Wyk, they
went--came to this country, uh, in 1936. They came over before all this happened--
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --as many other Jewish families did, as did my mother's family.
Her parents and the two sisters, who were very young at the--who were in their
00:22:00teens at the time, came over. And they move--came to New York, in 1936, around
that same time. And, uh, one of Dad's--uh, one o' my--other sisters went--at the
time, went to Argentina, and got married.
DONAHUE: One of your dad's other sisters.
JOHN ROSENBERG: One of the Rosenberg
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, sisters.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, Ola was her name. And she met a person in Argentina, was
married and then divorced, and eventually came to New York also. Uh, Yetta Van
der--Van der Wyk and the DeFrieses came to this country. Now, the family in
Rotterdam, that was there, that we were--this, this camp really was not a
prison. It was just--nobody had any money. And so there's very little they could
do. But they were free to go away on weekends or they could get a week--I don't
know it was formally get a pass. But they had the weekends. They were able to
00:23:00take off. And so we often visited with that family, although I don't re--the
children were quite small.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And so Mother, uh, took care of them for a week once, when they
went on a vacation.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I remember she complained, when she got back. She said they,
they asked her if she gave the kids a bath or if she did some cer--took care of
them, in a certain way, and they weren't--at least my aunt did--uh, and they
weren't--she didn't think they were appropriately thankful for having had that
done a--having her babysit for a week
DONAHUE: --yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, with all four children. But, uh, during that period, my
father started the school in the camp--he didn't--uh, for children. Because
there was no school. And, uh, he did that every day. And he always liked to
teach by what we call the Socratic method in this country, by asking questions.
00:24:00And so he would drill children orally with math and tell them--tell stories. And
I don't know what he did for supplies or--but he kept the school going during
that year.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, of course, uh, I think as I mentioned, by the end of, uh,
his tenure, we were--you know, uh, fortunately, we came to this country. But,
uh, the Dutch government, apparently, had heard that he was conducting this
school and had done this, so they wanted him to open a school at Westerborg,
which was the camp that Jews were taken to in Holland before they sh--were
shipped to Auschwitz.
DONAHUE: Right.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And so
AR: --uh, a transit camp.
JOHN ROSENBERG: The transit
AR: --yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
AR: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And so people stayed there for a week or two or three
AR: -um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --until they--trains--every week the train would leave and go to Auschwitz.
AR: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And they'd fill up the train. Another load of people would be
sent, to their death, uh, in Auschwitz. And, uh--uh, but, when Dad heard that
00:25:00was what he was suppose--would be his next assignment, uh, he decided to take
things in his own hands. And he knew that there had been a commi--that a
committee--it was getting--things were getting worse and worse. There were many
more people there than could be accommodated by the boats. And so, even though
people had their papers, they had to figure out--there was a Jewish Com--the
Jewish Committee, that had to figure out a way of handling the selection of who
could go and who would not go.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh--I don't know. I think I may have mentioned this in
the--in the earlier interview, uh, and maybe not. But what, what, uh, my father
related to us was that, that, uh, while he was still in the congregation in
Germany, uh, he was visited by one of the members of the Jewish Welf--I don't
00:26:00remember which committee it is, whether it's the Jewish, uh--uh, National Jewish
Fund or whoever it was in Germany. They were raising money. And so--because the,
the fundraiser came to Magdeburg. And he was--they pointed him towards my dad,
because my father knew the members of the community and could identify who he
thought were the people that might make sizable contributions. And so, as he
tells it, they spent a week--almost a week together visiting member--congregants
in Magdeburg. And so fast-forward to when we were in Holland in the camp. My dad
had heard that this committee was interviewing people. And I don't know what the
process was for interviewing, uh, who they selected when--but he decided to go
00:27:00to the committee. And he waited to the end of the day. And he knocked on the
door an--to this committee. And he opened the--they said, "Come in," and he went
in. And who was doing the interviewing but the same person who he had spent a
week with in Magdeburg--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --fundraising. And the man looked up at him and he said,
"Rosenberg, what are you doing here?"
DONAHUE: Oh.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And he said, "Well--(laughs)--I'm here and I'm trying to figure
out how we're going to get to the United States." And so he said, "I'll see what
I can do for you."
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh, I don't know that man's name. But we were among those
who were able to get out.
DONAHUE: Yeah. Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So, fortuitous.
DONAHUE: Uh, so he, he probably saved your life.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
DONAHUE: Uh, did your--was your dad concerned that, if he was sent to do that
teaching job at Westerborg, that he would be among those who would just be sent
JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, I think he
DONAHUE: --eventually, to Auschwitz--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don't know whether he knew that, uh, that--uh, whether they
00:28:00knew already that this was a transition camp to Auschwitz but I think he knew
enough to think that, if they moved him to that camp, and the family, that the
future would not look bright. I think it was already clear that, if the war
started and Germany invaded Holland--which wasn't too much later--uh, that
things were just going to get worse and that, uh, we would be killed.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, he never talked about it. And, o' course, at this
point you sorta wish you had more information and why. But when he describes
this incident, he b--he says that he knew that, if he had--if we had gone to
Westerborg, we probably would never have gotten outta the country.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, uh, and, uh--and we've been--we visited Westerborg, a few
years ago. They have very good records of people who were there and who went off
00:29:00to Auschwitz and
DONAHUE: --yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --that sorta thing. Bu but that's what he--the way he told it.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So h--it fel--that's what spurred him on to take some action on
his own--
DONAHUE: --yeah--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and really did save our lives.
DONAHUE: So you came on a ship--you left on a ship in 1940. It was one of the
last ships to leave Holland before World War II?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, right.
DONAHUE: Well, World War II had started by then bu
JOHN ROSENBERG: --it was the Holland--um, it made another--our--uh, we always
thought it was--or that it was the last ship. But my nephew determined that it
actually made another, uh, uh, voyage or two, mostly haul--not hauling many
passengers. But it made another trip or two for the Holland America Line, uh,
and before the war started. Now, it happened--but my uncle and my mother, my
grandmother were supposed to come out on one of the next boats. And they--uh, my
00:30:00uncle had actually--now where he was during those years, we really don't know,
whether he went--after the concentr--after he got out--when my mom--my dad and
he were released, whether--he probably went back to Lehr, would be my guess, and
to try to salvage what there was of the family's belongings. Uh, because he
eventually came back to Rotterdam, because his--and his mother was there. Uh,
where she was, I'm not really sure. We, we later found out the little village
where my grandmother, my dad's mother, went in Holland, went to live there,
until shortly before the war ended.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --th the Germans knew where all these people were. But anyway,
Zemi, at least, was--had put his belongings on the ship. Because it was supposed
00:31:00to leave, the ne next day. And then the war broke out. And then the ships were
bombed in the harbor. And so he did not get out and my grandmother didn't get
out. Uh, he was sent to a concentration camp--uh, I can't remember if he went to
Buchenwald first--and my grandmother also. And then he
DONAHUE: --(coughs) Excuse me
JOHN ROSENBERG: --eventually--he was married in the concentration camp, to a
woman named Betty Schnuck. And Jean and I met her in Israel, after the war. He
was killed duri--in the concentration camp. There's some question--my, my nephew
found some evidence that he may have committed suicide. Because, uh, the story
was that he was--he ran the leather-working shop and that he had started
00:32:00speaking out against the Nazis. And it was towards, towards the end o' the war,
actually. But he knew that he was going to be killed. And whether he killed
himself or whether they shot--uh, killed him, uh, same thing.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, but, uh, we did meet his wife. And then she remarried in
Israel. She's a lovely woman.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and, uh, his mother, my father's mother, Zemi's mother,
this--she lived, uh, really, to the end of 1944. And then--she had gone to a, a
small town in Holland. And, uh, they knew--uh, as I said, th they knew where she
lived. And the, the Germans would just roust--would methodically pick up the
German Jews or the Jews who were living in Holland, over a period of time, and
pick 'em up, when they were ready, and brought 'em up to Westerborg and loaded
00:33:00the trains and--so eventually, they got around to her. And people who were
living there, some--uh, remembered that, when she--they came for her, she said,
"I need to have my prayer book," which was apparently one o' the last things she
said to anybody. So then they took her and she went to the concentration camp.
And then she was killed. And she pro--must have been, in the forties, you know,
probably in her late eighties or early nineties, by that time.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --so--and the same thing with Zemi. Uh, so a substantial--the
people other than the ones who had gone to this country, everybody was killed,
including the family in Rotterdam.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
DONAHUE: What do you remember about the journey to the United States?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I think I--uh, uh, for, for a, uh, seven -eight-year-old,
00:34:00it's a fun--it was really an exciting adventure, I think, uh, just being on a
ship. And, uh, I've told people, uh, one of the highlights of the journey was
seeing the, uh, first--the colorized--the first color movie, uh, seeing The
Wizard of Oz on the ship, even though I couldn't speak English. But you could
get the gist of it. And, uh--and, uh, being aware--and again, I don't know if
this is more what I learned afterwards. But I know that people were concerned
about mines. And so everybody's lookin' out for these mines floating on top of
the ocean and, uh, sea, where we were leaving, when we left Rotterdam. It was a
long trip. I mean, I don't know that I remember really very much else about it.
00:35:00I'm sure the family was really overjoyed to be on--to be on the way. Then we
came to New York. It was really my mother's family, that was in New York, that
met us. And, uh, they had a small apartment in Washington Heights,
that--with--and we--it wasn't that small. It was actually, you know, for a small
family. They had a bedroom--anyway, they had two or three bedrooms in this
apartment in Washington Heights. And we moved in with them for a while. And,
think as I mentioned earlier, my mother's sister--so 1940, I guess, she was
probably in her thirties--gave me a quarter and said, "This is a lotta money.
Take care of this quarter." And so we--uh, I don't really remember a whole lot
more, except--you know, my German name was Hans. And when you got off the boat,
00:36:00s--the Hanses often became John. And we have another--uh, an uncle named J-Hans,
who also became a John. Uh, I saw a documentary the other day that--in which
they said that the people on Ellis Island didn't really change people's name.
Maybe they didn't change their last names. I mean, a lot of people change their
names in this country. They had long names, from Poland and from other--Germany,
that were hard to pronounce and they changed their names. But--uh, but the
Hanses became John, along the way, so whether they did that, uh, on a passport
or however they did it. And my brother's name was Horst. So he became Harry. Uh,
and we left our middle names where they were.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: My father's name was Rudolf and kept that Rudolf. And then--uh,
Hitler said that--uh, again, uh, by some form of decree, that all Jewish men
00:37:00had--would take a middle name of Israel and women would become Sarah. And
so--But my dad decided to keep that middle name of Israel. Uh, and, uh--uh, I
don't know. Mother--but he--but later, after the war, he made sure that my birth
certificate, which had the Israel on it--that he went back and had them put a
little note in there, that you--I think I've mentioned before, and which said
you--the Israel's gone, uh
DONAHUE: --hm¬
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I can go back to my middle name of Meinhardt, which is a
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --which is what it is.
DONAHUE: Uh, interesting that he kept--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh
DONAHUE: --he kept it for himself and he wanted to make sure that you didn't
have it.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I think he wanted that--uh, he wanted--uh, I mean, he felt
strongly about Israel as a country. And I think he l--in a way, liked the name.
00:38:00But he said--I guess--whether he did it so he would never forget himself--but
that's what had happened. Uh
DONAHUE: --but maybe he was wanting to protect you from any stigma that the name
might place on you?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh--I don't know. I mean, we never really talked about it. I
didn't know it till after we found the document. I don't remember when he did it.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, they went back to Austria, I mean--and to Germany after
the war, uh, in the summers, later on, after my father--when they retired. So he
must have sent this document to Magdeburg, to somebody. Uh, because he went to a
little effort to get it done.
DONAHUE: Uh-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh
DONAHUE: --I'm just gonna summarize a little bit, in the interest of time,
since, uh, the--you have such a rich life story and there are so many things we
00:39:00could get into--and last time we did an interview, we spent 11 hours doing--and
we don't have that kind of time. (laughs) So you went to--you moved to South
Carolina first, to Spartanburg and later to Gastonia. And, uh, I wonder if you
would talk--and your, your father became a leader, uh, in the Jewish community,
such as it was, there. And you, you've described how
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. I went back. And, uh, I th--you know, uh, uh, Dad
was--it was very hard to find work in New York, when we first came, there were
so many immigrants. I think I mentioned, uh, my mother cleaned houses. And all
these women did a lotta work--uh, piecework at home, making little--uh, slippers
and all kinds of things you could--that were--there were--they could work at at
home, and for various businesses. Uh, the companies that made slippers would
00:40:00have women hand-knit little embroidery on there or button--sew buttons. And they
did that at home. But my father looked around. And I guess he was pretty
unsuccessful and never had any good advice about how he could become a
schoolteacher in this country. Uh, and so, uh, he--I think in the interview,
initially, I had said that he ended up going ho going to Gastonia and
Spartanburg to--and started sweeping floors in a textile mill, which he did. But
apparently, he had learned that neither Gastonia nor Spartanburg had a rabbi.
And someone had mentioned that, i if he came, that he would be perf-performing a
service and have some compensation for conducting services in, uh, Spartanburg
and Gastonia. So he went down to Spartanburg, South Carolina and started
conducting services, uh, wh--pretty remarkable, 'cause he was really still
00:41:00lear-learning to speak English. And during the week, he swe s--was sweeping
floors in a fac--in the textile mill, the Dixie Shirt Company. And then, on
alternate weekends, he went to
Gastonia, North Carolina, and did the s--and conducted those services. Uh,
because neither
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --place had a rabbi. And, uh, I guess--and then he got to know
the people in that congregation. And so we started school. I started school in
Spartanburg. And it wa--first, uh, my dad was there for about six months without
us. He was saving money, so he could buy some furniture on time and find an
apartment, and which he did. And so eventually we joined him, my mother and
the--brother and I, in a small apartment in a poor part o' town. Or was a nice
little street. But people were working people.
00:42:00
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and, uh, uh, the other family, the fellow who lived there,
uh, was a manager of a department store in town. Uh, but I started school. And
my brother was still too young for kinder--he was home--let's see. At 1941, he
was, at that point, five--four and a half, five years old. And I think he was
home until he was--the first grade. And so, uh, that's where I started school.
DONAHUE: And you just
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh
DONAHUE: --learned English by being just, uh, immersed in, in school, just by--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --immersed. Uh, right. Well, the first--actually, in New York,
the first six months we were there, when we were waiting to be with my
father--uh, uh, the school--New York school ha--uh, system had a way of bringing
foreign children, immigrant children together. And they were in a separate
00:43:00class. And I went to P.S. 132, on--Washington Heights. It was probably, uh,
maybe a f--close to a mile a walk, down 180th Street. And, uh--uh, and there
were a fair number of German kids, I think, of kids who came from Germany. But
there were some others. And, uh, they just--they had you stay together until you
sort of learned enough. In the meantime, you were also out in the neighborhood
playing. And children, I think, learn the language, you know, much faster than
their adults, especially the adults who are talkin' German to each other all the
time. 'Cause my mother and her--She was working. And with her sisters--they were
still speaking German. Uh, I remember for many years they still spoke German to
each other. They eventually got away from it.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, but, uh--but so I'd learned, uh, a fair amount, I guess,
00:44:00of English, before I came to Spartanburg. Although my parents were a little bit
behind us. And, uh, you always, uh--I remember--I think I might have mentioned
this. When you were walkin' down the street with them in public, you're always
sorta yanking on their sleeves, saying, "Don't talk German to each other. Talk
English. Talk English." But--uh, uh, but that--you sort of picked it up pretty quickly.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I think it was harder, really--was to--uh, for my parents, as
adults, to understand the culture--
DONAHUE: --uh-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --where things are so different, uh, where children may have a
party at somebody's house and, uh, do you send them or not. Or baseball is new
and football is new and basketball is new. And the school curriculum is different.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, just getting used to the custom. Now, being in the Jewish
community, where he was so--even in Spartanburg--We were there for two years.
00:45:00And I believe, sometime during that period, they actually hired a rabbi. So my
dad was still working. But he was helping with services. And I think people
appreciated his, uh, uh, extraordinary knowledge of Hebrew and of Jewish customs
and being a very intellectual, bright person
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and realized what his knowledge base was. Uh, although, you
know, we were the only poor Jewish family in the community, as fa--pretty much.
Most of the Jewish, uh, members of the commu--of the congregation had stores
downtown, that w--had been there for a number of years--or their parents. The
same is true in so many Southern communities, where the grandparents had come as
peddlers and, over time and especially during the war years, their children
00:46:00became retail merchants in these communities--and lar--and had stores. And then,
in Gastonia, you know, a couple o' the families actually were owners of textile
mills, uh, were quite wealthy. So, uh, their social life was a whole lot
different. And I think, to some extent, that explained why we had many friends
who were not Jewish.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And they would send their kids off to camp for the summer, which
my parents couldn't afford. And I would go to Scout camp or
DONAHUE: --uh-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I was working after school, most of the time.
DONAHUE: So you were f--you went to a public school and your fr--your friends
were not necessarily Jewish.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah. I mean, and there were very few Jewish kids in--a a--in
Spartanburg, where I was only through--I think, through the si--for two and a
00:47:00half years, we were in Spartanburg. So really, I always ha--we grew up in G--I
grew up in Gastonia.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, the congregation, there were probably 75 Jewish
families. But in--let's say, in our high school, I was the only Jewish student
in my class. Uh, there were two or three others, who were c--a year or two
behind me. And so, uh, normally--now s--those students often--the other Jewish
kids, whose families were a little better off, a lot of them in Gastonia--the,
the Jewish community in Gastonia was very close to the Jewish community in
Charlotte, a bigger city, twenty miles away. And some of those Jewish
f--children were members of--uh, would, uh, be together with, uh, Jewish kids in
Charlotte and would visit back and forth. And there were some Jewish
organizations, civic organizations, and junior civic organizations for kids. Uh,
00:48:00trying to remember--DeMolay--what the name of those, uh, organizations is. But,
A, we didn't have--uh, uh, I wouldn't normally go to the--uh, uh, do that,
both--because eventually it either meant my folks taking me or--I probably made
a few trips to Charlotte and got to know them. But the kids were in summer--in
camps in the summer together, which were pretty expensive. And, uh--and so it
d--generally, the activities of people who have, uh, more money, they're gonna
travel more, they're gonna do things that are--uh, that people who don't have a
lot of money, uh, wo--wouldn't normally do.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and so, you know, we worked and we were a close family. And so
many of my friends were friends who were from working families, who were not
Jewish. And, uh, so--or--and, as I said in the book, scouting became a big part
00:49:00o' my life
DONAHUE: --yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh, uh, even though--and the Jewish--the young--the
Jewish, uh, boys who were in scouting, from our congregation, all became Eagle
Scouts. There was just a whole series of them. And they were all members of the
same troop, in the Presbyterian church. And we eventually bec--and we were, uh,
welcomed there. And then I was a counselor for several years, as I had
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --previously mentioned.
DONAHUE: Uh, and
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and what
DONAHUE: --uh, were you a--remind us. Were you asked
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah
DONAHUE: --to say prayers or participate in any
JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, what I said--what I did, the, the second or th--I think
it was actually my last summer. I was a counselor in this lovely camp in Tryon,
North Carolina, in the mountains, for three years. And the last summer, when I
was a senior there, uh, the sh--uh, Scout executive asked me to be the camp
chaplain, which was, uh, you know, unusual, for a young Jewish man to be the
00:50:00ch--camp chaplain. And that entailed--most of these Scout troops, uh, are--have
a minister with them. They're--m many of them are sponsored by churches. And the
Scout leader isn't necessarily a minister. Sometimes they are. But generally,
the, the minist--oftentimes, the minister comes along. And so, when the
ministers show up, on a--they come at the beginning o' the week. Uh, I would sit
down with them and we would--uh, would, uh, s--uh, work out the vesper services.
And--uh, and then I learned the hymn. And most of--you know, you'd have
Presbyterians and Baptist and Episcopalian, whoever the church groups were. And
so, during that summer, I learned quite a few of the Christian hymns, that I
normally would not have been exposed to. But, uh--and, uh--and, uh
DONAHUE: --and would you feel okay about singing them?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, uh, I think, originally, you know--my dad--when, when we
first came to, uh, Spartanburg, South Carolina, I think--I remember when--uh,
00:51:00because there was--uh, people--the--there was prayer in the schools, in those
early days, still, before that stopped. And so--and at Christmas time, people
were singing Christmas hy--uh, s--would sing Christmas--and my dad sent a s--a
note to the teacher, asking that I not be required to sing those. Uh, since
then, over the years, you know, uh, sometimes I'd--uh, I certainly sang during
Scout camp. I mean, it didn't bother so much, uh, at that point. It's not--I
guess I go back and forth. And, of course, you know, as you know, I'm married
to--Jean's a Quaker. And so--uh, uh, and we've been to many, many--uh, we don't
live in a very heavily--heavy Jewish community, in, uh, Prestonsburg, or since
we've been in, uh--since we've been married, over the f--over our forty-some
years--forty-nine, going on fifty. We have, uh, actually not lived in many
00:52:00communities where there are a whole lot of Jewish families. But, uh--and so
sometimes I sing along and sometimes I don't.
DONAHUE: Uh--um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: But I know many of those songs by heart. And I certainly did
that summer. (Donahue laughs) Uh, so that's where I got a lot of grounding
in--and I think it went both ways. I think those ministers were, uh, glad
to--would learn--uh, can't remember how many conversations we had about the
fact--I didn't always open it up by saying, "I'm Jewish." But there are not many
Rosenbergs in that area who were not Jewish.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, so
DONAHUE: --so it was known--it was known, uh, generally, in the troop, in the
Scout troop, that you were Jewish?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Oh, the, the, the Scout troop, certainly, uh
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and the Scout camp and the (??), who--yeah.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --people were aware that I was Jewish.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I'm sure I didn't announce, uh, at the beginning o' the week
that, uh, the Jewish--the chaplain is Jewish. But
DONAHUE: --right--(laughs)
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but I--yeah.
DONAHUE: Did you ever experience any antisemitism, i in the Boy Scouts
00:53:00
JOHN ROSENBERG: --you know
DONAHUE: --or elsewhere--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I think we tal--uh, uh, I just have not been really that aware
of Jew--of any, uh, overt--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --antisemitism in my life. I was reading--rereading the book and
I was thinking about that again. And, uh, I'm not--you know, I'm just, uh--uh,
since, since we've come to this country, we've been so fortunate. I mean,
we've--uh, have lived through this period where we tried to change some, uh, uh,
of the--or at least hoped that we would see racism--overt racism end. And you've
seen a lot of great progress in the gay community. Uh, and, uh, we know that
00:54:00there is antisemitism around. Uh, we know--uh, I mean, it hasn't been long since
the Pope apologized--right--for the Catholic view of Ju--of--that Jews killed
Jesus. Uh, and I know that, uh, the Anti-Defamation League--I mean, there are
stories. The Klan is still alive and well, in some places. I mean, there is a
lot of bigotry around. There's more than enough to go around. Uh, but I, I
don't--but it has really never--I've never really thought that it was a factor
in my life, particularly. Uh, we 've been really very fortunate. I mean, I
think, as I mentioned in the book, we have people who, you know--uh, uh, people
in our area who, uh, like us and think well of us and are worried that we're
00:55:00going to go to hell, because we're not saved. Right. And they, they really do.
Uh, uh, but, uh, uh, that's, uh--that's because they're so, uh, convinced of
their own view. It's not because of their antisemitism. In fact, so many of them
feel, uh, akin, feel close to--I mean, li--uh, have a--have a devotion to Israel--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and Palestine before. And you have Jews for Jesus and you
have, uh, even strong Baptists and people who feel close to the fact that we are
the children of God and there's something special about it. But there's still
that worry that somethin's gonna--we're doomed if we don't--if we're not saved.
DONAHUE: Um-hm. And they feel that as much about Jean as about you, when you say
00:56:00"we," you thin--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, I think they feel that way, probably.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, I don't know--they--uh, how many of them really have
learned that much about Quakerism. Uh, most of them--uh, most people in eastern
Kentucky have never met anybody who's Jewish, or many of the chil--now when we
ask in the classes, "How many of you have met someone who's Jewish?" there are
usually a few hands that go up. Because they've either been to a camp in the
summer or they've met somebody in some school group. Uh, I think Quaker--uh,
being--there are--Quaker, even more so. I mean, people just, in our area, don't
really know what--who Quakers are. Would you say? Uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --oatmeal boxes. (Donahue laughs)
JOHN ROSENBERG: Quaker Oats.
DONAHUE: They know what Quaker Oats are.
JOHN ROSENBERG: But, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I think people love Jean.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, there have been so many women who've been through her
00:57:00program, when she was running the--so running the single parent program at the
college, and are forever coming up to us--uh, when she was teaching childbirth
and saying, "Here's this fella. Here's this young baby. And now he's a"
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --you know, "six-foot-six basketball player"
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --somebody in the grocery store. So, uh, yeah, I th--I, I think
their feeling about us pretty much the same. I mean, not everybody feels that
way. And I don't think there are that many individuals spend a lotta time
thinkin' about it. But I know we are in the Bible Belt. I m--uh, we are. And we
were in North Carolina and South Carolina. Uh, and those--Uh, that's a very
strong part of many--of the faith of many o' the Christian, uh, community.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So it's there but--and, you know. And they know we're home on
Sundays. We're not at the
JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --we're seldom--every once in a while, we may go to a church
00:58:00service, for one reason or another, because somebody's visiting or because we
like the minister or--I mean, we do to go church once in a while.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, for many years, Jean--we were very involved in the
Presbyterian Church. Because Christian Service Ministry is--uh, was a service
organization that Jean had a lot to do with, and starting Meals on Wheels
an--and a lot of what happens in our communities is through the faith community.
So, you know, you--but we're--w we don't belong to any o' those churches or
DONAHUE: --um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: We do belong to the synagogue in Huntington now. Uh
DONAHUE: --so going back a bit, to when you arrived in the United States and
your, your education had been interrupted by Nazism and war and coming, uh,
overseas and being, being a refugee and coming to a new country, uh, how did you
00:59:00develop a sense of Jewish identity, uh, once you arrived in the United States?
Uh, what, what was that identity?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I mean, I think that--I think, uh, uh, the immigrants who
came, uh, who were Jewish, who fled Nazi Germany, if anything, uh, uh, I think
my--you know, that it may have even intensified the--their feeling of their
religion. I think you--if you study Jewish history, you can't help but be struck
by the notion that people--that Jews have survived over and over again, through
the worst kinds of pogroms, going back thousands of years. And so it's a little
01:00:00like Fiddler on the Roof, a lot of it. It's tradition. I mean, the people who
came, when they came to this country, I'm sure the--my dad and others would--the
f--one of their first questions is where do you go to pray, where is the
synagogue. I don't know that w--and, uh, those rituals keep you going, the
rituals on Friday night and on Saturday, and maintaining the Sabbath on
Saturday, which--and, you know, as I mentioned--and then, in this country, uh,
making the transition from being kosher, from being a very religious home--I
know that mother's father--I mean, on Friday night things stopped. And you have
your service in the home. And you went to a synagogue, wherever it was. And
01:01:00there are various degrees of that and to the extent to which families can, uh, I
think--and in my family, that continued. In Spartanburg or in Gastonia, Friday
nights, things stop--and, for many years, Saturdays. And I think, uh,
gradually--or even in New York, you realize the business cycle in this country
or the working day. It's Sunday that was the day off. And so, unless you were,
uh, an Orthodox Jew, who is not going to give at all--or unless
somebody's--something unusual happens--I mean, an Orthodox Jew, from Friday
night to Saturday night, uh, that's--it's the Sabbath.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: When you move south, especially, where you're not in a Jewish,
uh, atmosphere, where the retail merchants depend on Saturdays as being a big
01:02:00trading day--there are--you know, there will be some, uh--uh, probably some few
exceptions, where somebody's gonna say, "Closed on Saturday." But over time, in
most of these communities, where--the Jewish communities, where you had Jewish
merchants, their stores were open Saturday. So they--and so those congregations
were--largely became Reform congregations, and t--maybe Conservative
congregations, that had services on Saturday morning, where you--somebody could
go to services and then be back out by noon and be back in their store in the
afternoon. And they started having Sunday schools. I mean, Sunday schools, which
are the creature of Christian education, as part
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --along with the church service, wasn't anything that existed in
01:03:00the Jewish scheme of things, for many--until folks came to this country. Or
maybe they're in other countries also.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: But--(clears his throat)--it just be--developed that Sunday
schools--that Jewish communities have Sunday schools, at which time they educate
their kids in the mornings--(coughs)--and on Sunday mornings.
DONAHUE: Did you go to any kind of school, uh, Sunday
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I'm sor
DONAHUE: --did you--what kind of religious education did you have, once you
(John coughs)--got to this country?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, when we were in Spartanburg an and in Gastonia--the
congregation in Gastonia, Temple Emanuel, had probably fifty or sixty Jewish
families, about the same as Spartanburg. And they'd have Sunday school. And
so--I don't remember as much about the one in Spartanburg. 'Cause we really
weren't there that long. Uh, but, in Gastonia, there were enough children--as I
said earlier, the high school, there were only four or five or six of us in
our--in the high school at the same time. But, uh, we had a Sunday school. And
01:04:00we had teachers, members of the community that volunteered, who taught Sunday
school, the same as they do in church--in, in churches on Sunday morning. And
the rabbi would have a little part o' that. And, uh--and that's when the kids
would get together--and then w the same with bar mitzvahs. You know, when a
Jewish young man becomes of age, at the age of thirteen, uh, young Jewish men go
through this process of learning--or, uh, depending on the intensity of the
education--you are working towards leading the service, having the sermon,
reading out from the Torah scrolls
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and--called coming of age, at age thirteen. So the rabbi in
01:05:00Gastonia, at that point, named Rabbi Silverman, ga--I would go every week, uh,
once or twice a week for instruction. And then on my birthday, on the thirteenth
birthday, the Friday night that coincided with that, we had a big service. And
you invited all our friends. Or I think there may have been more non Jews than
Jews, by that time. Because we had--I'd been--I was--well, been there two years
but my people--you invite your friends. There's a party. And you get a gift. You
get gifts. And so it's a big affair. But then now--and then I have, in addition
to that--because girls are not m--there is, now, something called a bas mitzvah
for girls--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --which Reformed Judaism has brought in. And then there's also a
confirmation, which include--which is really another year of education, Jewish
01:06:00education, uh, which boys and girls can do together. Uh, and so there, there are
sort of variations on a theme. But, I mean, I think the point is really--when
answering your question, is that it's those traditions that keep you going, that
keep a family going, and that keep Judaism going.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And so, when you--uh, because of that, I think, you have had
s--resistance to--uh, in--certainly in Orthodox and maybe, to some extent, in
Conservative congregations, to Jewish men marrying outside the faith. Because
once you--if y--when you do that, you have to sort of make--figure out where
you're going. And y--it's not all Judaism.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: But I think that the identity and being Jewish, uh, uh, has
01:07:00always been a very big part of my life. I mean, it's not the most important
thing in my life. Maybe Jean's the most important thing in my life. And what she
says, I do. (Donahue laughs) But, uh, uh--so in our family, certainly during my
growing up years, uh, doing--as long as, uh, we were home--or even when were
away, when I went off to college or my brother went off to college or my
sister--If you came home on a Friday night, your d--you'd be there and, without
fail, my father would lead the service.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and then you--and, if you were home, as we often tried to be,
for holidays, either for the High Holidays, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, or for
Passover, those were important family gatherings.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and those traditions kept going, from year to year. And we've
tried to keep those traditions going too, I mean, in our house. We do
01:08:00
DONAHUE: --so did you enjoy them, as a--as a child and a young man? Did you
enjoy those rituals and those traditions?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I--enjoy is a funny word. I think, when you're young, uh,
it's what you grow up with. So sometimes you might become a little
impatient--(laughs)--with the length of a service, or even an Orthodox service
today. I mean, for some persons, some members of--who are really, uh, so taken
with their religion that they find nothing they love more than being in the
synagogue or in church and praying all day--I mean, that's what a monk's life
is, I suppose. I--we always enjoyed--I liked our family gatherings
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and enjoy--Mom would make a big meal. I mean, all--I think the
answer is yes, uh, to the family traditions.
01:09:00
DONAHUE: Yeah. I guess I'm wondering what about that you have carried with you,
over the course of your life, if there-if there's anything from tha that
tradition that--uh, that ritual--those rituals that you've drawn upon. Because
you have mentioned, in pa--in the past interviews, that being Jewish is
important to you, in the--(John coughs)--in the sense tha--I think one o' the
phrases that you repeated was that Judaism is founded on the--on the notion of justice
JOHN ROSENBERG: --um-hm
DONAHUE: --or the theory of justice--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --um-hm
DONAHUE: --and that's been a guiding principle, throughout your life, the
importance of justice. Uh, so how did you distill that, that knowledge from what
you learned, tha that that's what Judaism is, at, at heart?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, well, I think, uh--I think that's a hard one to answer.
01:10:00Because I do think it's a religion that I feel very proud of and that I agree
with. Uh, I mean, we all find, over time, things that are--uh, we become a
little more flexible. I mean, we begin--(clears his throat) you believe that the
stories in the Bible and the Old Testament are, uh, are there f for various
lessons. I'm not sure that uh, you know, I, I think, uh, being married to Jean
and understanding--uh, or trying to understand is what--passive--be--uh, being a
pacifist, way over here, having God, in the Old Testament, be such
a--(coughs)--retribution to those who have not--who aren't--who are the enemies
01:11:00of Israel in the Bible, those sorts of things--(coughs)--excuse me--are, uh,
somethin', you just have to figure out where you're go--how, how important that
is. And--(clears his throat)--but, uh, I, uh--well, I don--I gotta get some water.
DONAHUE: Sure.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I guess it's--Isaiah says, "Justice, justice shall you pursue."
So it sort of all fits together, I think. Uh, Jean reminds me of tikku-tikkun
olam, of repairing the world. But--and I think all of that is part of Judaism. I
mean, I'm not sure if I answered the question. I think that--uh, I don't spend
01:12:00my time thinking that, as I'm doing certain things in the low-income community
or working on various projects, that I'm doing this because I'm Jewish, uh, or
because there's some commandment or something, that I need to be doing this. I
mean, I think we do the best we can. And, uh, uh, when today is over, we will go
today to Huntington, t--we belong to a serv--uh, a congregation in Huntington,
West Virginia, now, because there are no congregations, really, left in eastern
Kentucky, uh, which we can talk about some more, if you want to.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And just closed down a congregation, a couple o' years ago, in
Williamson, West Virginia.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I guess there really, uh, even--there may not--there weren't
any, uh--there weren't any congregations after they closed the one in Ashland.
01:13:00But, uh, I'm--uh, uh, being able to go to that congregation and sit together and
listen and reread the prayers and, uh, uh--sort of brings back the--that theme
to your--to my consciousness, in terms of what is important to me. And that's
one of the things that's important to me. Uh, we don't go to Huntington very
often, these days. (clears his throat) We do have Friday night services at home,
that we carry that tradition forward. Jean lights the candles. We often call our
daughter and she's with us on the telephone, the way my mother used to be on the
telephone with us, when she was elsewhere, when we lit the candles
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, did the Kaddish. And it's an abbreviated sort of service.
01:14:00Uh, but it's the kind of thing you keep going. You keep a tradition going. And,
and that's been, uh, important for us.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but--uh, but, again, you know, uh, you live your life the best
way that you can. And it may not involve being able to go to services every
Friday--or how strong one has to fee--feels. I'm sure there are people who would
drive every week, to go to services. We try not to drive at night very much
anymore, if we can avoid it. But
DONAHUE: --how long does it take you to get to services in Huntington?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, from Prestonsburg, it's about an hour and a half, maybe an
hour and 40 minutes. So. I mea--it's not a--beyond the pale. When you live in
eastern Kentucky, all, uh--and comin' up here is two hours--right--to Lexington.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So we drive a lot. You drive a lot.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
01:15:00
JOHN ROSENBERG: But, uh--now, you know. And some families would not consider
living somewhere where you didn't h--where they weren't close to a congregation,
that they couldn't join and be members of and have their kids go to Sunday
school and be part of a congregation.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So that's just a life choice about where you feel you can do
what you want to, what, what you hope is gonna be helpful to others.
DONAHUE: Yeah. So this is a--this is a big leap but, since we're focusing, in
this project, on Jewish communities in Kentucky, uh, I want to ask about your
decision to move to Kentucky, in 1970. And that's skipping over some amazing
stories, uh, of--and, and experiences of yours with being, uh, in the military
01:16:00and serving in the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, uh, and
working on the V Voting Rights Act. And maybe, if we have time, we can go back
into that later. But in the--since we don't have a huge amount of time today,
uh, can you just--can you jump into describing what brought you to Kentucky?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, you know, when we were in the Civil Rights Division,
as--uh, uh, at a point when the Nixon administration, we felt, was starting to
back off on school desegregation cases--and, uh, we--I think I--uh, we jointly
thought it was time to do something different. And, uh, it was just sort of a
fortuity, in a way. I had interviewed some law firms in DC. And we weren't
01:17:00really sure what we wanted to, to do. Or I don't know if we were even sure we
were gonna leave. We, uh, thought this was not gonna be a good thing, that the
D--administration was going the wrong direction. And so we went on this big
camping trip, uh, along the Northeast to--through the Canadian parks. And while
we were away--uh, my friend and our former colleague, Terry Lenzner, at that
point, had been the head of the Legal Services office in the Office of Economic
Opportunity. And he contacted us and said that the--Paul Kaufman--that the, the
Appalachian Research and Defense Fund--that he thought it would be interesting,
that I might, uh, enjoy going down to talk to them about this public interest
law firm that had just started in West Virginia and, and, uh, the work in
01:18:00Appalachia that was--uh, that he was trying to do, this fellow Paul Kaufman, who
was a lawyer in Charleston and had gotten a small group of other lawyers
together and do public interest work, which I knew very little about at the
time. And so we were way up in Canada, I think, when he ca--when, when we got in
touch with Terry. I had actually--One o' the firms had wanted to interview me,
tha--in DC, right after we were, uh, up there. And we decided we didn't want to
come back home
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --to do that. But--uh, so, uh, we were going to visit my parents
in Florida, actually for the Jewish High Holidays, for Rosh Hashanah and Yom
Kippur, which was coming up. We were up in Quebec or someplace, at that point.
We had this long camping trip we'd been on. And, uh, so we looked at the map and
01:19:00said, "Well, that sounds like a worthwhile thing to do." And, uh, we'd find out
what it's all about. So we, we were--we stopped in Charleston and talked with
Paul and some o' the other, uh, members of that law firm, and, uh, learned about
some o' the legal issues that were involved, that was--or what people were
wrestling with there and here, involving mineral rights and black lung and, uh,
where--uh, welfare issues and that sorta thing. And so the--they suggested
the--from there--at the time, the--there was--there were a group of lawyers
here, called Mountain People's Rights, that had done some work with the Welfare
Rights Organization. And there was a lawyer named Howard Thorkelson, who had
01:20:00been here, who was in charge of that group. And it turned out that the--both the
Charleston group and the--this group in eastern Kentucky were having financial
problems. And they had been in touch with Terry Lenzner in OEO about getting a
federal grant, that would help both of them, the groups, uh, restore their
financial stability, so they could continue with their work. And the funding
would be run through West Virginia. And, uh, there wasn't--they were not
particularly friendly to--uh, I mean, the, the, the lawyers in Charleston were
more interested in doing large litigation, whereas the folks in eastern Kentucky
were going--helping with some organizing work and, uh, whatever. But so we, we
01:21:00decided we would say, "Sure. We'll go down and talk t--in eastern Kentucky and
we'll ta--see what's goin' on." So we drove our little Peugeot down to
Prestonsburg and went to Jenny Wiley state park, in September, on the way to
Florida, set up our tent. And Jean said, "Go out there and see. I think there
are some bears out here." But there weren't any real bears. But we--the--it was
already getting cool and were--there weren't any other campers around. And we
met the lawyers, uh, there and, uh, learned about the things they were working
on, and then went down to Whitesburg and talked to Harry Caudill and our friend,
uh, Joe Begley, in Blackey, and learned about broad-form deed and learned about
the problems of, uh, mineral--the issues of the dee--of that mineral deed and
01:22:00problems in strip-mining and people who were not able to get representation, who
didn't want their land strip-mined and the things that welfare issues were
working on. And people were--the hospitals were turning away some women who
didn't have any money, who needed to--who were about--who actually were
pregnant, some deliveries. There were some very serious issues to be look--you
know, that, that needed some legal resolutions. And so, uh, it all
seemed--really seemed pretty interesting, in terms of, uh, being able to address
some o' the--those questions and then having a law firm and being able to be
funded to do that kinda work. And Howard Thorkelson, who I had met, was
having--he had some health issues and he was leaving. And so they were really
01:23:00looking for someone to replace him. And, uh, so then we started driving, and on
towards Florida and decided this, uh, might be a good thing to do for a couple
o' years.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh--right? And that's f forty-some years ago. Uh
DONAHUE: --uh, forty-six?
JOHN ROSENBERG: So really that was--I mean--and so, when we came, we--uh, the
story gets a little more involved. But anyway, tha that's the answer to your question
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --about how we got there.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And there were just a lot of interesting, challenging legal
issues. And there wasn't anybody there, at the time--the private bar was
primarily, uh, either representing coal companies or were involved in a lot of
day-to-day work and they were not interested in, in--uh, there wasn't anybody
01:24:00around to help--any sort of formal way that low-income people could get help on
those issues, particularly. And a lawyer wasn't gonna represent someone who
wanted to challenge a strip-mining permit, uh, because it was an expensive thing
to do to compl--to fight the local--to go to the local agencies or to have a
legal, uh, battle with the coal company.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Just wasn't going to be--uh, it wasn't gonna happen--unless
we--there was a--uh, public finding to do that sort of thing, or somebody else.
DONAHUE: And you were greeted with hostility, from some of the local lawyers in
the community, who felt threatened by you, for a number of reasons. Uh, and I
wanted to read a quote. So you were profiled in a 1977 article in the New York
Times Magazine, uh, that was titled, "What's a Nice Jewish Lawyer Like John
01:25:00Rosenberg Doing in Appalachia?" And, uh, you s said in that article--you were
quoted as saying--uh, it was--there was a d description about how you were
greeted with hostility but that you won people over through your commitment to
the--to the place and its people. And you said, "This is my home. That's what
this thing is all about. You may have to take on city officials or the coal
industry but you're doing it to make a better place to live." Uh, would you
describe your--uh, the process of committing to making this place your home, how
it was that, despite that, that hostility that you encountered and how, how, you
know, the--for foreign the culture was, in many ways, that you could--what was
it that made it feel--that made you feel so committed to it?
01:26:00
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I do--uh, ag--I think, again, it's a hard thing to answer.
I mean, at some point--and I think, a lot of times, it's, in this case, when
your kids start going to school. I mean, I think the legal issues--uh, I think,
you know, initially, when you represent these folks in court, uh, like any other
lawyer, you--what, what you want to do is do the best job you can for them. And
I've always said what I wanted to do was have a first-class law firm for
low-income people, so they could be toe-to-toe with other organiz--with folks
who paid lawyers and who have good representation. An and, uh, that's what we
wanted to do. So--uh, and, uh, your value system is probably most--for the most
01:27:00part, except in some family situations, pretty much together with these clients.
They don't want--you don't want to see this land strip-mined, under those
circumstances. Or, uh, you want this coalminer to have, uh, safe conditions to
work under. And you don't want to have dusty mines. And you want consumers to be
treated fairly. And so those are all, uh, you know, objectives that you're
together with, as a lawyer. And so I think the clients were--are always--we had
a very good relationship with our clients. And so, uh, you know, that's sorta
the professional side of it. At what point it becomes, uh, uh--and I think p
people, over time, became appreciative of that. There was the hostility,
initially. And there's always gonna be some of that. But, uh, primarily, a lotta
that hostility is 'cause they thought, uh, they were gonna--lawyers were gonna
01:28:00lose business. Eventually, they--pretty soon, they figured out that, if we sued
somebody, they had a client that they were gonna represent, who was gonna pay
them. And so it wasn't that much. But, but low-income people really didn't have
very good representa--you weren't--you know, there wa--it was a myth that
lawyers were willing to do this free representation, outta the goodness of their
hearts, because somebody's gonna bring 'em a basket of corn, at the--when the
corn comes, or gonna pay 'em with vegetables. There was some o' that. Uh,
somebody write a, a will, because--And they'd bring 'em a--You know, they
were--uh, sort of more of a friendly basis. B--I think, when the kids started in
school and you have--Because we weren't that close to the church commu--uh, the
faith communities. Now when Jean started working on Meals on Wheels, which
wasn't too long after we were there, and started delivering meals to people and
01:29:00becoming more--and as she started teaching childbirth classes and as she become
more involved in the community, in a number of ways, or if I was representing a
community in a mining case or got to--where Eula and I started working
together--Eula Hall--on healthcare issues, you get to know people a little more.
But especially when we--the kids started in school and you become, uh, friends
and working with other parents, who then see that you want the same thing for
your child that they want for their children and that you're not just some
strange outsider and that you're not there to try to solve their problems but
you're really one of them, looking to do the same thing, and you want this--the
community that you're in to be a better community--uh, then, uh, you realize
01:30:00you're sort of all in it together. And is--does it ever--you know, I mean, the
area where we are has this very strong, rich history of generations of people
who were before us. And so, in a way, it has become home for many people. Uh, I
mean, I don't know. We've talked about this periodically, are we eastern
Kentucky or are you Appalachians, are we outs--are we--is it--it can be a home
but we may not be--uh, we certainly don't have three generations, going back, of
people who grew up in the mountains. Uh, but, uh, I do think, uh, in that sense,
uh, that, after a while, in some unconscious way, it becomes home. I don't know
that it's--uh, it's anything, you know--I think that first you're there
01:31:00professionally. And that's why I think, when we were there professionally, you
thought, "Well, we'll be here for two or three years. We don't know exactly
where we're gonna lay, in two or three years. But this seems like a goo--uh, a
way to be helpful and that starting a law firm here would be a really good thing
to do. Uh, there's a real need for that." We're not necessarily comin' in on a
white horse to change everything but there's a need here and we th--I think
it's--it was an opportunity to get something started, that would help people in
a major way. And then, uh--uh, you know, and then it, it just kinda goes from
there. So what's a nice Jewish lawyer doing in Appalachia? Uh--(laughs)--you
know, still tryin' to--he's still doing that! (Donahue laughs) Uh, s--headline
hasn't changed. Right. Right? Oh. I'm looking over at Jean.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Uh
DONAHUE: --Jean. (laughs) Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Do--is that an answer?
01:32:00
DONAHUE: Yeah!
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
DONAHUE: Uh, so there wasn't a particular point at which you can put your--that
you can put your finger on, when you said, "Okay. Uh, this is home." It was
a--it was more of a process.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I think so.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah, I think so. I always tell people, "We can't leave, because
the garage is so full o' stuff. I don't know that we could ever clean out our
garage--even if " (Donahue laughs) When somebody says, "Why don't you move a
little closer to your children? 'Cause you're getting on in years.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: But, uh--And I said, "Well, we can't get the garage cleaned
out." (Donahue laughs) I don't know if that has anything to do with it or not.
Uh, no. But I think that's right.
DONAHUE: So you have two children, Michael and Annie. Right? And, uh, where are
they now?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Michael's in northern Kentucky, in--uh, they live in Newpor--he
and his wife live in Newport. And she teaches, for the--at the University of
Cincinnati. She's a criminologist. And Michael, uh, is looking for new
01:33:00opportunities, since the budget cuts--
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --have eliminated the most recent job he had, which was, uh, as
a tra--uh, being in charge of transfers students at, uh--at, uh, Gateway
Community College--
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --which is the community college up there in northern Kentucky
where he'd worked at five, uh--almost five years.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --so he's looking at other opportunities. Annie's in--uh, they
li--uh, Annie and her husband Steve live in s--in--outside of Corydon, Indiana,
in southern Indiana. But she--and she works in Louisville. She's a social
worker, who got her master's at the University o' Kentucky. Now, she was, uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --n
JOHN ROSENBERG: --finished at the--I mean, U-- master, University of Louisville.
Uh, she, uh, went to The David School. Which, I did a lotta, uh, work in the
David community. I think we spoke about it in the original article.
01:34:00
DONAHUE: Yeah. So this is a small town that's right near Prestonsburg, that was
owned by a coal company and then, uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --former coal camp--
DONAHUE: --you--or--uh, hel--you were part of a group that helped purchase the
town at--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. We did a lotta the legal work involved--
DONAHUE: --s--found a school
JOHN ROSENBERG: --so the community, basically, would--formed--we formed a
Community Development Corporation, so that the community members, who were board
members--the, uh, corporation purchased the town, the surface rights, the
houses, from ridge to ridge, and with the idea of selling the homes back to
people who lived there, who were renting from an in-town group of businesspeople.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and then, uh, during the thirties and forties, it was a model
coal camp--had the only swimming pool. People from Prestonsburg used to go out
on the train, to go swimming there. And, uh, it was really--uh, there was a
01:35:00school. There was even a small airstrip. And then, when the mine closed, in the
early forties, and sort of just things stopped. And, uh, a group of
businesspeople bought the, the surface rights, uh, to the town. And they rented
out the--those homes to the people who lived there. And then a Catholic mission,
a group called Brothers of Charity, came and, uh, started teaching some Bible
school and helping local families with issues, poverty.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and they approached me about trying to--whe whether the
community might be able to figure out how to purchase the town and, uh, get it
away from these business folks and see about developing a community further. And
01:36:00so it took quite a while. I mean, we needed to upgrade the water system and go
to the Public Service Commission. There was a lotta legal work involved. And
then, when we finally got it done, we were able to--the corporation built some
new homes there. And, uh--and The David School sort of grew, uh, side-by-side.
The school first was in--uh, in the--there was a company store there, the last
company store. And the fellow who--uh, uh, while the company store was still
there, the guy who ran it was named Tiller, and read the Wall Street Journal
every day.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but he had this--It was still stocked with--It's where people,
locally, bought stuff. And it was the company store. And they finally closed it.
I was trying to remember the name o' the mining group that was there, that had
kept the store open. But then they transferred him. And so a fella named Danny
Greene, who had come from New York, had gotten some volunteers, uh, and he, uh,
01:37:00got some funding and he bought the store and some other buildings, uh, that we
di--uh, actually, about the same time, and he converted that sch--that store
into a school.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and then, over the years, the s--that s--uh, big building fell
into disrepair. And when Annie was there--uh, Annie went there for the last--uh,
she wasn't doing very well in our high school. Although Michael, our son, was
pretty gifted academically. (clears his throat) Her--Annie had a more difficult
time in public schools. And so eventually she went to The David School, uh,
which was really focused on lotta one-on-one education. Was a small school, for
kids who were not doing well in public school, some from broken homes. And, uh,
so there were volunteers, some--and some Catholic volunteers and some nuns, that
01:38:00Danny Greene and, uh--had brought in. And they started a GED program. And it's
a--it's a nice, long story on its own. And, uh, it really helped her pick up her
academic, uh, work. And then she ended up in, uh--going to community college,
went to Morehead. And then she went to--got her--uh, was able to, uh, get her
m--uh, aca--or, uh, degree from Morehead and then got a master's from the Kent School.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and she's a so--does social work now, in Louisville.
DONAHUE: Um-hm. (John coughs) Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, uh
DONAHUE: --how did you and Jean negotiate? So you talked about how you have--you
worked out, uh, going sometimes to someone's home for a Quaker service and
sometimes to, uh, when it existed, the services in Williamson, West Virginia, at
01:39:00the synagogue.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, we, we s
DONAHUE: --how did you neg--how'd you work that out--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --we started with our--we started with our wedding, when we had
a--at a Quaker meeting, with a rabbi.
DONAHUE: Okay. (laughter)
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, were not easy to find, at the time. But, uh--And it sort of
carried on from there. And so, for--at one point--I may have mentioned this in
the book--we had--we would, uh, to Williamson--well, we first went to Ashland, Kentucky.
DONAHUE: Okay.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And they had one o' the first women rabbis.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and the kids were small. And we'd go up to Ashland for
services. I guess initially we went to Lexington, uh, and came up here for a
while. It's a little further. Then we heard about A--then we went to Ashland.
DONAHUE: So--sorry--would you come to the synagogue or the temple, here in Lexington?
JOHN ROSENBERG: To the, the Reform congregation.
DONAHUE: Okay. Adath Israel.
01:40:00
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, uh, which, uh--
DONAHUE: --Temple Ada--Temple Adath Israel.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Adas--Ad(??)--right.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --the guy was nor--and Leffler was his name, back then.
DONAHUE: Okay. Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: B became a stockbroker. Yeah. We came up here
DONAHUE: --and would, would you come once a month, uh, back then, or just--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, for holidays.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don't know how long that we came to Adas Israel that often,
uh, periodically, just for the holidays. And then we started goin' to Ashland.
And then Ashland closed. There was a synagogue in Portsmouth. But the Ashland
congregation, most of them went over to Huntington, which at that time had a
Reform congregation and an Orthodox congregation. Uh, but, about the same time,
I think we learned about the congregation in Williamson, West Virginia, which
we, for some reason, hadn't heard about--until we met a family--the
Williamson--there was a Jewish family in Pikeville, named Yarris (??). And, uh,
one of the Yarris daughters--uh, the Yarris kids, uh--let's see--Marion--uh,
01:41:00anyway, one of the Yarrises, the daughter-in-law, w--later, uh, started--Jean
taught them how to--uh, Jean--uh, they worked with Jean in childbirth education.
Anyway, that family was going to Williamson. And so we started going to
Williamson. It was a--just still a pretty good little drive, before they got the
four-lane finished. It was about an hour and a half. And the congregation had a
pretty rich history of, uh, having been in the coalfields for seventy-five years
or so and was a large--there were probably seventy-five Jewish families there,
in nineteen--in the thirties and forties. But by the time we started there,
probably in the nineties, maybe--yeah--or the early 2000s, somewhere in there,
it w--the congregation was already quite small.
01:42:00
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --there were only several families left, who, uh--uh, is a
beautif--very nice synagogue. But it was a ver--at that point--during the
w--during the year other than for High Holidays, it was not a very--it was
really quite small.
DONAHUE: Mm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And on the holidays, on High Holidays, some o' those families'
members, the sons and daughters, some grandkids, would show up and, uh, would
swell the congregation. And, uh, that lasted until, by now, probably ten years
ago--how long we going to Huntington, eight or nine----somewhere--when we had to
g--uh, it just dwindled down to very few people. And, uh, so the--uh, it was
necessary to close it, uh, close that congregation. And the--uh, uh, the pews
and most of the inside went to a new congregation in Pittsburgh. And they had
01:43:00hoped to donate the building to folks in Williamson. But we started--then we
started going to Huntington. And by that time, the Huntington congregation--the,
the Reform and Orthodox congregations had merged, to create a Conservative
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --congregation, uh, and, uh, there. Uh, and that's where we've
been going. And it's, it's a very nice--I it's not huge. But they have several
f--we have some people who go to--Marshall University is there. And some members
o' the congregation have been there a long time. Uh, and, uh, I think it's a
struggle for them, uh, financially. I mean, it's--they've got their head k--It's
a beautiful old synagogue, a beautiful building. They actually have just--uh,
they've just leased--or, uh, signed an agreement to let one of the church
01:44:00groups, that I guess has gotten big enough to build a--uh, to get a
building--and a local, I think, Presbyterian--I'm not sure--a local Presbyterian
group is going to use the synagogue when, when the, uh, temple, uh, uh, is not
using it for services.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: But that will give them some extra income. But it was quite a
discussion, I guess
DONAHUE: --hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --before they agreed to do it. But we--but the answer's--but
we've been going there. And, uh, uh, you know, years ago, we had a couple of
other f--Quaker families in eastern Kentucky. And we met in their home--uh,
Hazard or Pikeville.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but Pikeville wasn't a Quaker family. Uh, anyway, we moved
around a couple times. And as I said in the book, you know, your Quaker service
01:45:00can be a silent meeting for worship. You can have three or four or forty people.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And so we, we, we primarily go to the synagogue, when we
sh--when we are--uh, for various religious occasions. Or we--we've been to
Israel with the group from Huntington, or some o' the people from Huntington.
And, uh--uh, but we, uh--uh, we're aware of the Quaker world
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I think is a good way to put it. So we're sorta where we were
when we got married.
DONAHUE: Yeah. Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, that's what we've done--
DONAHUE: --yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --all the way through. Uh, the kids--I think I spent more time
with Michael, probably, as he was growing up, in terms of being Jewish. And I
think--I think, if you ask him, he would say he was Jewish. I think J--Annie
would say she's a spiritual person, which, she is very spiritual.
01:46:00
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And--but she has not been--uh, doesn't generally go to--well,
neither one of them, normally--I mean, uh, would normally go to services at a
synagogue. Uh, Michael and Pam have joined us for High Holidays. And Annie's
been with us. I mea--they've all been with us, at various times. And they
usually--we've done Passover together--and with, uh, friends, uh, locally as well.
DONAHUE: Is, uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --s
DONAHUE: --does it matter to you, if they maintain a, a Jewish tradition in
their own lives?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, n uh, well, I think they have to live their own lives, I
mean, wherever they--they're adults. Where-wherever their spiritual lives carry
them is going to be what would--what they do. I think I would like them to know,
01:47:00I suppose, that they have this Jewish tradition. But I think they're very aware
o' the fact that it's a great part of my history. And, uh, if they can remember
that, whatever they do, I think that's good enough for me.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, they have to choose. I think they're both quite spiritual,
in many ways. Although our daughter, I think, has spent more time thinking about
the spiritual life--and, uh, since she--especially since she had a cancer
episode a few years ago. But she's now happily out of--for now.
DONAHUE: Uh, that's good. Uh, so did--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but the Jewish thing in eastern Kentucky--and, uh, I haven't
read the whole thing. There's a book called Coalfield Jews
01:48:00
DONAHUE: --uh-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --which is sort of a history of these congregations
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, Logan and Williamson. There were two or three, uh,
larger congregations, in the thirties and forties, in West Virginia, and, uh,
that have just, you know, dwindled over the years, as the younger generation
moved out. Uh, but it's interesting to think about.
DONAHUE: You mentioned spending some time with Michael, uh, teaching. Were you
teaching him about Jewish history?
JOHN ROSENBERG: It was sorta homeschooling--
DONAHUE: --okay. (laughs)
JOHN ROSENBERG: --sorta home
DONAHUE: --how did you go about that?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Huh?
DONAHUE: How did you go about that?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, uh, Sunday mornings, uh, generally, I think, was the best
time, when we would read a little from Jewish--a Sunday school boo th--we have a
collection of some o' those books. Or if we went--I know, when you went
visiting--Jean's family in Philadelphia, we stopped by the temple there, and one
01:49:00of the synagogues. And they had some books that they weren't gonna keep. Or we
would get some, uh, books. Or we bought--So we have--uh, so, uh, I would go
over--you know, we'd read some stories about--biblical stories. And--uh, and
it--and we--the kids, at Purim, uh, uh, would roleplay, uh, and dress up as
Queen Esther. And we would do--have little skits like that or--you know, we--and
same, uh--a and continue Passover. But I spent more time at it with Michael than
I did with Annie. And maybe she was not quite as willing. But we had, you know,
uh--uh, and probably as much my fault as--or, uh, whatever. I'm not sure what
happened, whether I became, uh, less, uh, interested in continuing that--or
01:50:00letting them--letting us go our own way and figuring it out as we ca--as we
went. Uh
DONAHUE: --would they go to services with you, when you went?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah--when we went to Williamson, while they were younger
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --when we went to Williamson--or if they did. Yeah.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --Jean always tells a story that, when Annie was little and we
were in Ashland, she would-wou--Annie would go upstairs, w--in the choir loft
and line up her stuffed animals across the top. (Donahue laughs) S--when we
looked back, you could see her upstairs with her s--But they would--yeah--they
went with us, and, uh, while, uh--uh, generally, when--until--uh, when Michael
started driving, as he was in high school the last couple of years, I don't
think--he didn't come up with us as regularly anymore. I mean, that's, uh, what
happens so often, I think, after--Jewish students, after they become bar
mitzvah--especially in smaller towns, where, unf--where Friday nights
01:51:00compete--where services compete with ballgames and--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --school activities. So it's
DONAHUE: --so was--did he have a bar mitzvah?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Did Michael have a bar mitzvah? He di--Michael did not have a
bar mitzvah. Had to look to Jean. He--no, he didn't. I guess he can still do it.
There are actually adults--people
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --there are adults who have bar mitzvahs, later on. In fact, I
think my sister
DONAHUE: --and Annie didn't
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, my sister? No
DONAHUE: --didn't do the
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh
DONAHUE: --bas mitzvah thing.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, she has--uh, she didn't formally join a congregation
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --of any sort. We went a few times to the--we went, a couple o'
times, to the Unitarians here
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --years ago. But, uh
DONAHUE: --was it challenging at all to, to raise children in a small,
predominantly Christian town and have them not be, uh, strongly identified with
01:52:00one particular religion?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Is it challenging? I don't know that we gave a lot of thought to
it. But now, Annie probably went to Bible school a few times, in the summer,
with some of her friends.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don't know if Michael really did or not. Uh, but y--uh, Jean
says no. Prob--I don't think he did. Uh, I think Annie was more social, in many
ways, locally, uh, spent time with kids who didn't have any m--anything and some
folks who had money, uh
DONAHUE: --uh, uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --much more of an accent--I think Michael, uh, being pretty
intellectual an and gifted academically, uh, would say that he wasn't--uh, I
don't know that he was ever--that h--he doesn't remember having very many close
friends. I think he--uh, when he started, uh, keeping--back then, when computers
01:53:00were new, he started keeping scores for the basketball team, and the coach.
That, that sorta helped him a little, socially. But I think he always felt a
little bit on the out--as a little nerdy kid, which isn't very easy in our area,
because it's so--people are so, uh, into athletics, football, basketball. And,
uh, he was there during the beginning of academic teams. And that really was a
great salvation for him
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and some of these other activities. Whereas--so he always
felt, I think, especially, looking back, more on the outs. I mean, he was--he
had some friends. He had some friends--uh, from our perspective. But he--uh, his
memories are not as--probably as happy, about growing up. It was difficult. I
01:54:00know we mentioned in the book that when, uh, one of, uh--he--one o' the teachers
asked him to explain Hanukkah, one year, or--and when he did, some kids teased
him or even--I think one o' the teachers had a bad reaction. Uh, Annie, uh, I
don't know that she ever had to do that or would have done it. But h--she just,
uh, I think, always, uh, uh, felt a lot more comfortable with whatever the
social situation was.
DONAHUE: How, how did you deal with that, when Michael told you that he had had
that experience with other kids, uh?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I don't know if we took on the teacher. I don't remember,
uh--I mean he had other experiences. Jean may have--did you talk to him--uh,
Jean, talk to the teacher? D'you talk to the teacher or the principal?
JEAN ROSENBERG: The teacher.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, and I--I mean, there were other situations with Michael
01:55:00
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --just as difficult
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --he didn--if he didn't draw inside the lines on a coloring book
or something. Some o' the teachers ha had, back--especially back then, I think,
there was, uh, the idea--the--(coughs) We've learned a lot about education, in
the last few years.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, that--uh, how do you deal with those situations? I
think you just--(coughs)--you do the best you can.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, I don't know. Do you want to ask Jean--because--(Donahue
laughs)--how she (coughs)--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but, uh, I don't--excuse me, uh--(clears his throat)--I don't
dwell very long on things that don't go well.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --you just kind of--kinda get past 'em. And, uh--(clears his
throat)--I mean, we've had situations. The local Muslim emir? Is that what
01:56:00he's--my doctor, my surgeon. What was, uh--what d--what's he c--what do you call the--
JEAN ROSENBERG: Imam. (John coughs)
DONAHUE: Let's call
JEAN ROSENBERG: --ima
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --has gone to services with me
JEAN ROSENBERG: --ima.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh--I don't know (??). I was (??) thinking back about that
situation with Michael. I can't even--Jean could tell you what she talked--what she
DONAHUE: Can we pause for one sec?
[Pause in recording]
DONAHUE: Is just seems appropriate, since you were involved in
JEAN ROSENBERG: --yeah
DONAHUE: --all these decisions, for you to be
JEAN ROSENBERG: --part o' the
DONAHUE: --uh, and, uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I'd love it, if she's
DONAHUE: --okay.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah, I think it's great.
DONAHUE: (laughter) Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Or
DONAHUE: --so welcome, Jean.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Thank you.
DONAHUE: And do you have anything to add, as you listen to this conversation,
about how t--how to approach the, the education of your children, as far as, uh,
giving them some background in Judaism and some background in Quakerism?
JEAN ROSENBERG: Quakerism.
DONAHUE: And also I know, from the prior interview, that you got very involved
in studying Judaism. And John said that you knew more about Judaism, in some ways
01:57:00
JEAN ROSENBERG: --oh
DONAHUE: --than he did.
JEAN ROSENBERG: That's not true. (Donahue laughs) That's not true.
JOHN ROSENBERG: It's no--
JEAN ROSENBERG: --but I think, when you're new to something, you're, you're
listening at a different level. And, uh, uh, it always appealed to me that
there's a big emphasis on, uh, healing the world and on giving, on tzedakah. And
I always thought that that resonated very strongly with what I had been taught
as a Quaker, k--growing up in, uh, that tradition.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JEAN ROSENBERG: So, uh, uh, it wasn't a conflict. It was more--he had more
rituals and we had more, uh, uh, searching, uh, responsibility for the service.
It's just a, a different approach.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JEAN ROSENBERG: So.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So how do you remember the thing with Michael, when you talked
to the teacher?
JEAN ROSENBERG: Well, I just went in to her and I said, you know, "This was,
uh--this, this was, uh--this is what he told me, that you, you laughed at,
01:58:00uh--you let the kids laugh at him. And I felt that that was inappropriate, that
" And, you know, she listened to me and--we didn't come to any great meeting of
the ways. (laughs) Sh--you know, she wa--uh, Michael was very, very, uh, smart.
And that was threatening to many teachers. They--uh, he would--he would be able
to participate at a level that they were not ready to handle.
DONAHUE: Uh--but she had asked him to talk about Hanukkah.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Yes. She had a--sh
DONAHUE: --is that r--
JEAN ROSENBERG: --I think--no, I think--actually, I think he volunteered. He
wanted to share.
DONAHUE: Okay.
JEAN ROSENBERG: And, uh, in--as part of sharing it, he also, uh, sang a Hebrew
song an--And, uh--and, uh, she commented that it sounded like baby talk to her--
DONAHUE: --uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --during the class. And that really hurt his feelings.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JEAN ROSENBERG: So. You know, that was just her limited exposure. And, uh
01:59:00
DONAHUE: --uh-hm.
JEAN ROSENBERG: But I was up at the school all the time, volunteering and
helping with things. So people knew tha that, uh, I was ver--you know, I was
a--uh, an active participant in, in, uh, education. So.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --it wasn't unusual for me to be--(laughter)--you know, them
dealing with me.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: But she was president o' the PTA--when you--also.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Uh, yeah, right.
JOHN ROSENBERG: (clears his throat) Yeah.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, we--right.
DONAHUE: What about Christmas? Was that challenging? Did--how did you--did you
celebrate Christmas?
JEAN ROSENBERG: Always.
DONAHUE: Uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --but in a very--Quakers don't--uh, celebrations aren't
really--aren't really a focus. Uh, you know, it's a reminder. Uh, you don't have
a--the intense, uh, Christmas rituals that other religion--uh, other Protestant
religions do. It was a, a pretty easy time of, of, uh--when I was growing up. An
02:00:00and in our home, it was just a very, uh, loving and giving time.
DONAHUE: Uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --but we never went through the myth of Santa Claus or that
kinda thing. It was--uh, you know, we told the stories, because they were part
o' the tradition. But it was never ex--never expected you to--my k--certainly,
my kids never expected Santa. They always knew that, uh, we were buying in the
name of Santa, for each other--
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JEAN ROSENBERG: --and that kinda thing. You know, uh
DONAHUE: --did you have
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but for many years, w
DONAHUE: --a Christmas tree? Sorry.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Yeah--oh, yeah.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JEAN ROSENBERG: We had a tr--and we had hand--you know, the ornaments that came
from both sides of my family.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And a Magen David, uh, on top.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Oh, then a Mogen David on top. (laughs) Right.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, silver. But we--for many years, we went, uh, almost
annually, for Christmas, to see Jean's family, in Philadelphia. So we celebrated
Christmas, uh, in their Quaker tradition, which she's just described.
02:01:00
JEAN ROSENBERG: Which is a silent meeting for worship. I mean, it's
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. And, uh, uh, the songs. And, uh, Michael, uh,
remembers--I don't know--uh, very well. I mean, they'd had--in the--Christmas
Eve, everything was ca--uh, in the Meeting House, people sang carols. And they
had choi--a s--they had a silent meeting for worship. And, uh--but then
Christmas morning was a big deal. Jean's father would stay up during the night,
making some engineering project--(Jean laughs)--a dollhouse or some other big
deal for the kids, uh. But we went up--we would drive up and then we would
invariably drive back a few days later and--uh, in the VW bus, with the kids,
uh, in the back, under our--(laughs)--under a blanket, in a cold VW bus, driving
back to eastern Kentucky. But that's the way we did with--for Christmas. And,
you know, the competing holiday, which is Hanukkah, usually, is cl is the Jewish
02:02:00holiday, which is close to Christmas. And--but it's--uh, it's--uh, you know, it
doesn't have--uh, I mean, it's a different theme--but doesn't have all the
commercialism around it that Christmas did. But we would do both. And we would
light the candles, at home, when the kids--a different candle every night, keep
adding one. And so we would have--we would go through both holidays. We always,
uh, uh, uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --and we had different themes for the--different lighting--uh,
different candles, you know. Sometimes we would give gifts and sometimes we
would take food, uh. It was just different--
DONAHUE: --uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --up, depending on
DONAHUE: --was it a challenge for either of your parents, to accept, uh, this
interfaith marriage?
JEAN ROSENBERG: I think it was for John's father.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
JEAN ROSENBERG: I think he was--uh, he--It would, uh--he woulda preferred John
02:03:00to marry a nice Jewish girl. (John laughs)
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So he got a nice Jaker girl. (laughter) He--Well, I think
JEAN ROSENBERG: --Jewish-Quaker
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I think that he--you know, I think they, uh, loved Jean and
that they a--and that he accepted, uh, the--uh, what we did, uh, the wedding,
the marriage, and the children. And that's the way it was. And when we visited
them in Florida, we went to services with them, and, uh, maintained the
traditions we always had at home. I mean, that's--it was the same way, whether
it was Spartanburg or Gastonia or West Palm Beach, where they retired, and Dad
was a very, uh--uh, very much involved in that Jewish community. And when he
passed away, we had a, a funeral there. The rabbi and the congregation who did
the funeral, uh, mentioned, you know, how much he meant to that community, those
02:04:00last years that he was alive in Florida.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, but I don't--and I think Jean's parents were so
JEAN ROSENBERG: --they loved you. And it was--it was fine with them. They were
grateful that he didn't live in another country.
DONAHUE: Uh--(laughter)
JOHN ROSENBERG: --w--uh, that I didn't live in another country?
JEAN ROSENBERG: No, I mean, you know, what if so--the you know, they
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. But they
JEAN ROSENBERG: --they were happy--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, they--when they were with us, they want--uh, we did Friday
night services at home. And, uh, with--uh, uh, there was no Quaker meeting
nearby. Uh, w--I don't know that we ever went with them to a Quaker meeting. Uh,
right? We didn't, uh--I mean--and they were Presbyterians, in New York, before
they came to Phi Philadelphia and became--decided to join the Quaker
DONAHUE: --um-hm--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, Meeting. But they were--you know, no one could be more
02:05:00tolerant, I don't think. And Jean's father was a very spiritual person, very
involved in the meaning of life and afterlife and that sorta thing. So he--there
was a--uh, there are always those connections. So we've--it's never been a real problem.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, in--unless you're in that branch of Judaism, unless
you're worried about--uh, or any other faith--I'm sure, Orthodox--where
intermarriage is going to mean the end of one or the other, uh
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --somewhere along the way, that, uh, the tradition doesn't continue.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh
DONAHUE: --so do you--do you have a sense that the two traditions feed each
other or--
JEAN ROSENBERG: --I think so. I mean, I think there's--it's a continuum of
history. And, uh--and we've always joked about that--
02:06:00
DONAHUE: --uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --that, uh, Jesus was a nice Jewish boy. (laughter)
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, was a Jewish boy. Yeah.
DONAHUE: What about Jewish community, living in a--in a small town in eastern
Kentucky? Uh, when you g--when you went to services, were you largely motivated
by making connections with other members of Jewish communities in your area? Or,
or was it the ritual or--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --oh, I think it was just the tradition and the ritual. I mean,
the--(clears his throat)--meeting the other people is a byproduct, I think. Uh,
and we--because o' the distances, we really--uh, you know, we superfici--we got
to know them superficially. We probably--like the trip we took to Israel, uh,
where we spent a little more time with some o' the congregants, you obviously
have a little more opportunity to talk to each other and to--and to be sociable.
But because we would come back home after services on a Friday night or even
02:07:00Saturday morning--we might stay over. And we--you meet people like that. So, uh,
it's, it's not really for that reason. I mean, I think, if we lived in a larger
commu--in a larger city--and it's like joining a church or learning a sig--uh,
uh, or being a member of the Jewish synagogue or being a member of a Quaker
Meeting. Then you become part of that group.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Social fabric.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, right.
JEAN ROSENBERG: And we were not there.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And--uh, a and I think that, uh, that, uh, might be something
we, uh, will have missed, in our lives. But it's--there are sort of trade-offs.
You have to decide, uh, if--what your--want your life to be about.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and, uh, certainly it means a great deal to the members of the
church--of the faith communities, uh, that are members. I mean--And a lot of
that revolves around--a lot of what happens socially, uh, involves, uh, the
02:08:00churches in our area, and, uh--uh, and the synagogues, in the area where you
have more--whe where they exist. Uh, I think the congregation in Huntington's
pretty vibrant. Certainly the ones here are, as most, uh, large-as most of these
congregations are. But, uh, that's--I think that--it, it hasn't been a real
motivation of ours. 'Cause we just don't stay--except for holidays, we, we don't
really spend time in those communities.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, do y--
DONAHUE: --are there other Jewish residents of Prestonsburg, tha that you've
gotten to know?
JEAN ROSENBERG: There--no, there are not.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, we
JEAN ROSENBERG: --there's o--(laughs)--there's, uh, one Jewish woman and her
daughter, in the next county. Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --wh who don't live there anymore.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Who don't live there
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh, who've moved to Lexington. But
JOHN ROSENBERG: --moved, uh
02:09:00
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --last year or two--in the last year.
DONAHUE: Miriam?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Now we're the
JEAN ROSENBERG: --yeah.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: Miriam, right--uh, Sillman (??).
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So we've had a couple--you know, a few--very few Jewish lawyers
or law students, from time to time, who've come through. But, uh, uh--uh--an--I
mean, that is the way that it is, you know. Uh, s
DONAHUE: --you mentioned the Yarris family.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Right.
DONAHUE: But the--they're, they're--they've all moved
JEAN ROSENBERG: --they've left, yeah
DONAHUE: --out of the area, as well.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And they were there many years, I mean, the--And the--there are
still some families in Williamson. It's just--and I'm not sure--there's a
family--there are two or three families in Williamson. It just wasn't enough to
keep the congregation going. I think there's some--and of them has a
intermarried daughter. Uh, and the president o' that congregation, Bill Rosen,
02:10:00moved to Florida. He's in his--close to ninety, I would guess. Right? Uh, who
was very involved, uh, with civic organizations and the American Red Cross, when
he was--and his son was a circuit judge in Ashland.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Now, my--interestingly, one o' my fraternity brothers when I
went to Duke, his father was, uh, the mayor of Ashland--was a Jewish family--who
was the mayor of Ashland, back in the forties and fifties.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, and, uh, there was a family in Hazard. But there've been
very few Jewish families anymore. I don't know there was ever--there was another
family--there was Lenny Grand, uh, years ago, another local store owner, who
mar--who married a woman from Prestonsburg and lived there for a number of
02:11:00years. But, uh, nope, there just--there just are not
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, any Jews to speak of in eastern Kentucky, that I know of,
outside of Ashland. And that congregations dwindling. We actually had a
service--the rabbi in--our rabbi in Huntington was interested in trying to bring
some more folks from around Ashland, if they lived there, to services. So she
had a service in Ashland, about three months ago, and is planning to do another
one. And she had it in a Masonic lodge.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh, so we'll see. But, uh--but we keep the traditions going.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, if you're--it's always nice to talk about your book,
when we talk to school groups.
DONAHUE: Yes.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I think they're interested.
DONAHUE: Uh, want to hear about your experiences with talking to groups. 'Cause
02:12:00I know you've talked--you've talked about the Holocaust to groups
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah
DONAHUE: --you've talked about Judaism to churches. W and you mentioned that in
our earlier interview. But what, uh--what has that experience been like?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Well, I think--uh, I'm glad to do it. Because generally, people
ask, you know, about that. And, uh, the students are very interested, I think,
now. Most of them have read--in our area, in middle school, read the story of
Anne Frank. Uh, and people who've read your book really appreciate it. Uh, I
think having an opportunity to talk about Judaism is, is, uh, a--is worthwhile,
just so it helps open up those educational boundaries. I mean, I think--I don't
know how many of those kids in eastern Kentucky have ever been to a synagogue or
whether they'll ever go to a synagogue or have ever met anybody else who's
02:13:00Jewish. And I think keeping the Holocaust story alive is very, very important.
Uh, and I think that, uh, as much as I can contribute to that--I mean, I know,
if I made myself more available, I'd be doing that a lot more than I do. But I'm
still pretty busy with other community activities and legal work of one sort or
another, that--there's just a limit to how much o' that I can do. But it's, you
know, the extent that I can do it. But people come up to me, in various, uh,
situations, and, uh, would say would I--w--come over and talk to their church
group. And I said, "Sure. Just let me know when you want to do it." Uh, but I
think it also helps to bridge that gap--I mean, whatever their views are of
someone who's Jewish--(laughs)
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --that they've never met them--or that there's someone living
02:14:00here and we can talk about the traditions and the things we've talked about today.
DONAHUE: Do--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --so I can do that
DONAHUE: --yeah
JOHN ROSENBERG: --now and then. I'm glad to do it.
DONAHUE: Do you feel any concern about what happens after you're gone, since
there are--there are no--(laughs)--there are no other Jews in the area?
JOHN ROSENBERG: No other Jews?
DONAHUE: Uh, uh, how do you
JOHN ROSENBERG: --oh, I've, uh
DONAHUE: --pass along--(laughter)--
JOHN ROSENBERG: What? Uh, I've really never thought about that, Arwen.
DONAHUE: Uh, okay.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, I mean, I guess that people have had a chance
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --to know who I was.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, and I don't know that many of them really--(coughs)--give a
lotta thought to the fact that I'm Jewish.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Or maybe they don't even know I'm Jewish. I mean, I don't know
that they, uh, give any thought--I mean, I think they really associate my name
02:15:00and me with AppalReD and the civic work or the Science Center. Uh
DONAHUE: --uh, I should think they, uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --right?
JEAN ROSENBERG: I was just laughing because, uh--uh, we just had this
forty-fifth reunion for the--AppalReD. Right?
DONAHUE: Which is the Appalachian Research
JOHN ROSENBERG: --Research, uh¬
DONAHUE: --and Defense Fund.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Right--uh, legal services program. And one o' the local
newspapers came out with a picture, uh, of John on the front page, with Eula
Hall. Right? And I went up the Health Department, where I worked for a number of
years, and they said, "We didn't know John started AppalReD." (laughs)
DONAHUE: Uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --I thought, uh, that's interesting. You know--(Donahue
laughs)--can't believe it. Some p--Yeah. You know, so much a part of our family,
uh, uh, uh, it's just hard for me to remember that other people don't have that
DONAHUE: --yeah
JEAN ROSENBERG: --in their frame of reference.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, well, started. But, uh, anyway, I think people, uh, you
know, associate us with being in the community and what we're doing
02:16:00
JEAN ROSENBERG: Interested in community things an
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and that--and the work we do. And I don't th--I'm not sure
that--whether--I'm not sure that it's really a conscious thing about being
Jewish. We don't talk about nobody else. But we, we haven't met--we haven't
really mentioned my law partner, Ned Pillersdorf, who is Jewish and whose family
is--who's from New York and who--whose family's Jewish. They're nominally
Jewish. He doesn--and he also is married. His wife, Judge Janet Stumbo, is a
judge on the Court of Appeals. Uh, and, uh, they don't, uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --practice
JOHN ROSENBERG: --practice. I m he doesn't. He's not involved. And he's
gonna--he's not--doesn't come to services. We sorta joke about his not coming to
services or, uh, being a--uh, you know, being involved in any o' the traditions.
02:17:00He's come--they've come to our Passover, from time to time. And we're very good
friends. But there is that other, uh, Jewish lawyer. And periodically, people
get us confused--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --since we're bo
JEAN ROSENBERG: --same hairstyle
JOHN ROSENBERG: --since we have the same hairstyle. And we also prac--we're--I'm
of counsel to his law firm. And we've, you know, done a lotta things together.
So where the
DONAHUE: --where does he live?
JOHN ROSENBERG: In Prestonsburg.
DONAHUE: Oh, okay. Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah. They live in--they live ou--I mean, they live
in--technically, in Van Lear--is a Van Lear address.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but they're just outside of town. And his office is in Prestonsburg.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: So we shouldn't--I think, if he's asked, "What's your religion?"
I think he says J--he would say it's Jewish. And I'll have to ask him. But I
think that's
JEAN ROSENBERG: --oh, he would
JOHN ROSENBERG: --yeah
JEAN ROSENBERG: --for sure.
JOHN ROSENBERG: I mean, his father was, uh, in--was in the military and was a
02:18:00POW, and then came out, and had a store. And his--and, uh--and he grew up in New
York City
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --outside of New York City--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --went to Vanderbilt, went to, uh, McGeorge law school, was a
public defender. He's a good lawyer. So there is
DONAHUE: --how long has he been in Prestonsburg?
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, probably th--I think they've been married about thirty
years. Right? Sarah's
JEAN ROSENBERG: --yeah.
JOHN ROSENBERG: He's probably been there thirty-five years, at least. And,
uh--but now one of his children, one--he has three daughters. And one of the
daughters went on a Birthright Israel trip
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --Nancy. Didn't she go? I think she did, one year.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Boy, I can't remember that. But it's okay.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --uh
DONAHUE: --you mentioned Israel. What i--what are your feelings about Israel? We
talked about--a little--that a little in the last interview too but just to
02:19:00follow up. Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --well, we went there. And then, I have a cousin, who is my age
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --still working. And we've s--visited with them. His wife is an
artist. And, uh, they have several children. And one of the--his--and his son is
here in New York. And his granddaughter came to Raleigh. Uh, so we have that
family connection.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, we've--uh, uh, Jean--We were talking about places we
might yet go--uh, just ready--we, we'll probably go back. I mean, I
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --what--I think it's a wonderful country. I think it's a--it's
an amazing place, in many ways. And, uh, really, I think, uh, you know, we're--I
think everybody--I think a, a lot of folks are frustrated in trying to f figure
out c--whether these countries can ever--the non--th--whether the Israeli and
02:20:00the Arabs that they're surrounded by will ever find a way to have peace.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And, uh, I don't know that that's ever gonna be any different
than it is right now.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I mean, it's a tragedy, really. And--but, uh--but I think you
can have different--you know, the, the, the efforts of trying to, uh, have some
intermediaries and trying to do something to bring about peace or to bring out
better relations between Jews and non-Jews, and those are worthwhile. But it's,
it's, it's, it's a conundrum.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --but, uh, certainly very supportive of the country. I'm glad
this country is supportive of Israel.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --and I think it's a very--uh, they're ver--in a very difficult
position. Because so many of these children that are growing up in the countries
02:21:00around them grow up from--go through an educational system where they're taught
to hate
DONAHUE: --um-hm
JOHN ROSENBERG: --their neighbors, uh, taught to hate Israel and would like to
see it eradicated.
DONAHUE: Uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --that's--in my mind, that's a tragedy. But what can ha--be
done? So, I don't know. Do you have somethin' you want to add to that?
JEAN ROSENBERG: It's a differe--you know, s--you have to live your life in
accordance to your best thinking.
JOHN ROSENBERG: We are--we're pr--ver--you know, we talk to them, once in a
while. Uh, they're really lovely folks--our relations there
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --in Haifa.
DONAHUE: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: And they're--I visited them when I was in the military, in
1955-56, when we were--well, uh, my cousin's a couple years younger, I think.
02:22:00And his mother, who's my father's sister, was still living. And they were
on--uh, living in a farming--farm community, back then
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --near, uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --we we--uh, we went in '69.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Uh, when Jean was pregnant with Michael--
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --our first trip
DONAHUE: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --together.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Um-hm.
JOHN ROSENBERG: Yeah.
DONAHUE: Uh--Uh
JEAN ROSENBERG: --on the
JOHN ROSENBERG: --s--uh, so we have that connection. Uh
DONAHUE: --yeah, I know--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --well
DONAHUE: --it's time to--
JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh
DONAHUE: --you all have to move along. Do you
JOHN ROSENBERG: --is that all right--
DONAHUE: --is there anything else that you want to say, before we close, that I
haven't asked about?
JEAN ROSENBERG: Have you--do you feel comfortable that you've covered what you
needed to cover?
DONAHUE: Well, I, I feel like we could do more but that I think we, we got at
the core of the
JEAN ROSENBERG: --okay
DONAHUE: --of the issues.
JEAN ROSENBERG: Okay.
DONAHUE: So I think that's--I think that's good. And I'll, uh--you know, if--
JOHN ROSENBERG: --w
DONAHUE: --maybe we can arrange another time
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I don't whether
DONAHUE: --if we need to, some other day
JEAN ROSENBERG: --uh
JOHN ROSENBERG: --who will watch this and find it interest--(Donahue
laughs)--and find it useful. We're certainly in a
JEAN ROSENBERG: --parenting is a
02:23:00
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I'm probably
JEAN ROSENBERG: --is always, uh, uh, uh, uh, a work in progress, is it not--
DONAHUE: --yes
JOHN ROSENBERG: --I'm probably an, uh--(Donahue laughs)--we're probably an
anomaly, in some ways. But, uh
DONAHUE: --you're very unusual people. (John laughs)
[End of interview]
