00:00:00FERNHEIMER: My name is Janice Fernheimer. I am the director of Jewish studies
and associate professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies at the
University of Kentucky. And I--it is my great pleasure to be here today with
Anne Shapira on July 25, 2016 to conduct an oral history interview to become
part of the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence Jewish Kentucky Collection. I'm
going to start with some questions that I hope will be easy. (laughter) First,
what was your name at birth, and when and where were you born?
SHAPIRA: My name at birth was Anne Sh--Edelstein, E-d-e-l-s-t-e-i-n. And I was
born in Mo--Ottawa, Canada, March the 23, 1914.
00:01:00
FERNHEIMER: And when and how did your family arrive in Canada?
SHAPIRA: My mother and father were both born in England, Manchester, England.
They migrated to Ireland, Dublin, Ireland.
FERNHEIMER: And--
SHAPIRA: In nin--in 1910, they migrated to Ottawa, Canada.
FERNHEIMER: What brought them to Canada?
SHAPIRA: They had an uncle who had already moved, and the--he was able to take
care of them and get them a house, get him a job. My grandfather was a tailor,
and he could get in the business in Ottawa tailoring men's clothing only. Very
00:02:00fine. Because in England, he owned a factory that manufactured suits. So when he
came to Canada, he did the same thing, only in a store. Couldn't afford anything else.
FERNHEIMER: What were your parents' names?
SHAPIRA: What, hon?
FERNHEIMER: What were your parents' names?
SHAPIRA: Mildred Hollander.
FERNHEIMER: And--
SHAPIRA: That's my mother's maiden name. And my father's name was Edelstein.
FERNHEIMER: And when were they born? Do you remember?
SHAPIRA: Mother was born in 1896. I tried to figure that--I was born in 1914.
Mother was just eighteen, nineteen years old when I was born.
FERNHEIMER: Mm. And do you have siblings?
00:03:00
SHAPIRA: Pardon me?
FERNHEIMER: Do you have brothers and sisters?
SHAPIRA: A sister. One sister. She's three years and seven months younger than me.
FERNHEIMER: Is she still alive?
SHAPIRA: Pardon me?
FERNHEIMER: Is she still alive?
SHAPIRA: Yes. She lives in Sarasota, Florida.
FERNHEIMER: What's her name?
SHAPIRA: And I spend the winter down there with her.
FERNHEIMER: What is her name?
SHAPIRA: Frieda.
FERNHEIMER: Frieda Edelstein?
SHAPIRA: Well, she's married. She was married. Frieda Horen, H-o-r-e-n. And then
she married an Epstein.
FERNHEIMER: And did they stay in Canada, or did they move--
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: When did she move to Florida?
SHAPIRA: I moved here at least--let's go back a bit. I had an aunt, my mother's sister.
FERNHEIMER: What was her name?
SHAPIRA: Her name was Ra--Rachel.
00:04:00
FERNHEIMER: Rachel.
SHAPIRA: Rachel Hollander. And she came here to visit a couple who had also
lived in Manchester, England, and she came to visit them here.
FERNHEIMER: In Louisville?
SHAPIRA: And while she was here, she was pretty, and they dated her up with the
oldest of the five Shapira brothers. Then after she got married, took about four
years, I came to visit her, 1930. I have to go back so many years. I came to
visit her, and that's the second youngest of the five brothers, and I married
him. So now we have an aunt and a niece married to two brothers. She married the
oldest, Gary, and when I visited, I met David, the second youngest. And we got
00:05:00married in 1938.
FERNHEIMER: Now I'm going to--I--I know, um, when you came to Kentucky to visit
your aunt Rachel, you had just finished university at McGill in 1934.
SHAPIRA: Yes. I graduated '34, and then I did postgraduate, which was Montreal
General Hospital. If you took two years there, they added your degree. I was
ready to get a master's.
FERNHEIMER: So you came--
SHAPIRA: And I worked in the hospital as a dietician for those two years.
FERNHEIMER: In your--you gave an interview in 2007--in 2007, you--someone else
interviewed you. I listened to that interview. It's at the library, the
University of Louisville. And you said that when you visited your aunt, that's
when you met David. You said that now. And that you were also offered a position
00:06:00here to work with the Jewish Hospital.
SHAPIRA: That's right.
FERNHEIMER: And, um, you said, "I was very anxious to remain here, so I did." I
was wondering, can you tell me a little bit about that visit to your aunt and
how you met David, and how you came to be offered that position at Jewish Hospital?
SHAPIRA: I came to visit in--what was it, thirty--
FERNHEIMER: Was it '36?
SHAPIRA: Got married in '38. And g--gave--must have come here in about '35.
FERNHEIMER: Thirty-five?
SHAPIRA: And I came to visit my aunt, and she was living with her mother-in-law.
Mrs. Shapira, the mother of the five brothers, had this ho--home on First
Street, 1379 South First. And the boys all lived with their mother when they
00:07:00were w--in the city. Most of the time, they lived in the little towns where they
had a store. But weekends, they'd come--come up. And that's how I met--that's
how I met Dave, because I went to visit, and he came home for the--for the
weekend, and that's how I met Dave. Now, you asked me--what was the question you
just asked me?
FERNHEIMER: Uh, how--so tell me a little bit about that meeting, what--what--
SHAPIRA: Oh, how I met?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah.
SHAPIRA: Okay. Well, my mother--my future mother-in-law--my mother in--Ray, my
aunt's mother-in-law, we'd all stay in that same house. She became ill, and her
doctor was a Dr. David Cohen. And she was in bed, and he came to visit. And
while he was there, my--the patient, my mother-in-law, Mrs. Shapira, said, "I
00:08:00want you to meet Anne Edelstein. She's my daughter-in-law's niece." That was
Ray's niece. And she said, she saw so--just graduated from McGill. She came here
from McGill University in Canada, and she's a dietician. So Dr. David Cohen's
eyes went a--"Oh, a Jewish girl, a dietician. We need one at the Jewish
Hospital." And I said, "I'm sorry, I'm a Canadian, I'm not permitted to work in
the United States without what they call a green card." So Dr. Cohen says,
"Don't worry about that, I'll fix that. You go and be interviewed by the
president of the Jewish Hospital, and I'm sure he'd be delighted to hire you."
So that's what happened.
FERNHEIMER: Wow. So you went--so was Dr. Cohen working at Jewish Hospital at the time?
00:09:00
SHAPIRA: Y--Dr. David Cohen. He was the--very well known, and very well liked doctor.
FERNHEIMER: What--what was it like to work at Jewish Hospital during that time?
SHAPIRA: I thought of that all night. It was an amazing privilege, and the head
of the Jewish Hospital, a Mrs. Hughes, unless you'd like to know, I remember her
name. She was the matron of the Jewish Hospital, in charge of all of the nurses.
Not nec--not the doctors, just nurses. The whole nursing staff, let me put it
that way. And you asked me--
FERNHEIMER: --just--
SHAPIRA: --what it was like?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah.
SHAPIRA: Well, you were like the prime minister of a build--of a country.
(laughter) What I'm saying is do they bow down to you, you were considered on
00:10:00the same level as a doctor. You've got the same--what should I say? We were
looked upon as head of a--the department, the food department. So therefore, we
were very well known, we were very--we knew every patient, practically. And in
those days, you visited the private patients with a clipboard and asked what
they'd like to eat the next day. So at the Jewish Hospital, the patients who
were private patients got ext--magnificent care. Uh, they got anything they
wanted to eat, three meals a day. And the night before, I'd take my clipboard
with a pen and say "What would you like to eat?" This is what's on the menu; if
00:11:00you're not suited, we'll get you something else. So at the Jewish Hospital, all
the private patients got almost person-to-person care. Um, the general--the
patients who were not private patients came from a different kitchen. And there,
they had a dietician there who planned their meals. I only did the private
patients. Um--
FERNHEIMER: Were they mostly kosher meals?
SHAPIRA: What, honey?
FERNHEIMER: Were the meals mostly kosher? Were the--
SHAPIRA: I'm sorry.
FERNHEIMER: Were the meals kosher for the Jewish--
SHAPIRA: They were kosher, yeah. Yeah. I planned the kosher meals, and I planned
the meals for the private patients. And another chef, and another--she was not a
dietician, but she planned the meals for the other part. Um, it was interesting.
00:12:00They bought a house next door to the hospital, and you can still see it if you
go there. And that's where the head nurse and myself lived, in this house next
door to the hospital. That's at--that's at Jacob Fort.
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm.
SHAPIRA: And the--
FERNHEIMER: Was--was that the house that was purchased by the Bernheim Brothers,
the nurses' house?
SHAPIRA: No, I don't think--I don't think so. I mean, here's a hospital, and
right next door was this nice-looking house. It had about four bedrooms. So Mrs.
Hughes, Ms. Hughes, and myself had rooms with our own private bath.
FERNHEIMER: Mm.
SHAPIRA: Some of the other staff stayed there, but I don't remember.
FERNHEIMER: How many women altogether stayed in the house?
SHAPIRA: Pardon me?
FERNHEIMER: How many women altogether in the house?
00:13:00
SHAPIRA: Maybe five, six. But Mrs. Hughes and myself had the rooms with a bath,
each one. And we slept there--we--I got a hundred dollars a month.
FERNHEIMER: Wow!
SHAPIRA: From working from seven in the morning till seven at night, with two
hours in between to go home to re--to go back to the house, rest, and come back
for the evening meal.
FERNHEIMER: How many patients did you see each day?
SHAPIRA: I don't remember exactly how--how many. Uh, the number of private
patients might have been six, five or six. Oh, another interesting story. At
five, six o'clock in the morning, I got up, got dressed in my white uniform, and
went to the market. There was a black man, had a station wagon, and I'd meet him
00:14:00at 6:30 in the morning, and we'd go to the market and buy all the food that we
needed for the private patients, not for the others, just the private patients.
Can you imagine, at a hundred dollars a month, getting up at 6:30 in the morning
and go in a truck to the market and pick up all these? (laughter) When I think
of it now, I just can't believe that that was the way it was.
FERNHEIMER: Were there--what kind of patients did you see? What--what--the
private patients, what kind of illness did they have? Where did they--
SHAPIRA: They were probably wealthy enough to have a ro--room and a bath. Most
of them were older. Maybe older in those days was sixty-five or seventy, I don't
00:15:00remember. (laughter) Also, they had a maternity ward, and a lot of Jewish babies
were born at the Jewish Hospital. My two children were born at the Jewish
Hospital, and the maternity ward was very well-known, and the doctors who took
care of them were also very well-known. So I'd say that was almost a maternity
hospital. (laughter) Because many, many Jewish children were born at the Jewish hospital.
FERNHEIMER: And what--what other kinds of memories about the Jewish Hospital
from that time do you have? Uh, w--what can you share with us about the
experience? Y--you talked a little bit about working so hard for a hundred
dollars a month. Were there other women working, uh, other than the nurses? Did
00:16:00you encounter--did you encounter a lot of other women working?
SHAPIRA: Well, uh, except Mrs. Hughes. Jewish girls weren't--they weren't
trained to be nurses. Uh, I think being--having a nurse in those days was
more--lower than the standard that Jewish mothers and fathers would like their
children. I don't remember only one Jewish--I gave you her name, did I get you
her name?
FERNHEIMER: No, tell me, please.
SHAPIRA: Oh, what's her name? Abby? One Jewish woman that I knew worked at
the--I'll have to think about that, but there was a Jewish woman. That's all I remember.
FERNHEIMER: Who was a nurse?
SHAPIRA: She was a nurse.
00:17:00
FERNHEIMER: And--
SHAPIRA: Uh, as I remember her--I'll try and think of her name. Let's see. In my
purse, there's a--I wrote down some of the names.
FERNHEIMER: Would you like me to get your purse?
SHAPIRA: Where's my--in my little red purse right there. Thank you. Here it is.
Remember, Ms. Hughes, and I remember Dr. Cohen.
FERNHEIMER: Tell me a little bit about Ms. Hughes.
SHAPIRA: About my what?
FERNHEIMER: Tell me about Ms. Hughes. What kind of woman was she?
SHAPIRA: She was tall, straight, she walked around with her arms like this all
day long. Wore her little white cap. Never married. She was a typical
Englishwoman, very stern. And you did what she said to do. I mean, you went to
00:18:00her with all your plans. She had to okay everything. She was very nice to me, I
had no problems with her at all, but most of the nurses did, um, because she
held herself above the stack. Because in those days, being a nurse was not
something that was considered a career. It was something that you did to earn a
living, and now we put the training that you all have. That's not the way--I
worked at the Jewish Hospital as a dietician. I think there was one Jewish nurse
in the whole hospital. So Jewish girls did not go into that profession, and I
00:19:00don't think they do today too much. I'm not sure. I'm sure maybe they do,
because, uh, you can get a degree in nursing. Where before, all the experience
you got was on the floor.
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm.
SHAPIRA: You came in as just someone who wanted to learn how to be a nurse, and
so--but, uh, you couldn't go to school. There was no such thing as a degree in
nursing like there is today. I don't know a whole lot of what's going on now in
the field, or, uh, to be a nurse at one of the hospitals, you have to have some
kind of a degree? I'm not sure.
FERNHEIMER: I--I think so now. Um, but I--I'm curious more about then. Um, so
you worked there for two years?
SHAPIRA: What, hon?
FERNHEIMER: How long did you work at Jewish Hospital?
SHAPIRA: Almost two years.
FERNHEIMER: And how did--you said there weren't a lot of Jewish nurses then, and
00:20:00that your position, it sounds like, was very well respected, like Ms. Hughes.
Um, how did other--how did your family feel about you moving to Louisville to
take this job?
SHAPIRA: (laughter) They were happy for me, because the minute I met David, I
fell in love. I went home--I went home after I met him, and I was home a year or
so, then I came back, and it was on my second trip back here that I had--was
asked to take the job.
FERNHEIMER: So the first trip was in '35?
SHAPIRA: Nineteen thirty-four, thirty-five.
FERNHEIMER: And the second trip was, like, '36?
SHAPIRA: Thirty-six. Mm-hmm.
FERNHEIMER: And--
SHAPIRA: So, when I was offered the job, I was thrilled and delighted, because I
00:21:00wanted to marry Dave, and this was the only way I--I felt that I could stay here
and be courted, and make plans to get married.
FERNHEIMER: Did you correspond with David in that year you were back in Canada?
SHAPIRA: Mm, telephone call.
FERNHEIMER: Telephone call. No letters?
SHAPIRA: The telephone was, in those days--a long-distance telephone call on
Friday nights.
FERNHEIMER: That must have been expensive!
SHAPIRA: Oh. This is not for publication. You want to know something that
happened in the Jewish Hospital? It's really cute. It's really--don't--don't
record this.
[Pause in recording.]
FERNHEIMER: (laughter) That's a good one.
SHAPIRA: Don't put that in the book. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: I imagine that might have made things awkward when you saw him later
00:22:00on. Uh--
SHAPIRA: Pardon me?
FERNHEIMER: When you saw the doctor later on, did you--
SHAPIRA: --oh, he was still in there--
FERNHEIMER: --pretend you hadn't seen anything? Um--
SHAPIRA: A Jewish doctor. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: --(gasp)-- With a Jewish girlfriend, or a not Jewish nurse?
SHAPIRA: I--I don't remember. I don't know. She was--I know her name, but I'm
not going to give you her name.
FERNHEIMER: (laughter)
SHAPIRA: She was a Jewish girl, one of the few Jewish doctors. So that's my
famous story.
FERNHEIMER: From working at that time. That's a pretty good one. Um, so that
wasn't your typical day.
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: Um, typical day. More--tell me a little bit more about that typical day.
SHAPIRA: Typical day was from early in the morning, go to the market pick up the
food, come back, make my menus for the next day so I know what to buy. The chef
00:23:00took care of the cooking. I just gave him--you know, he got all the food that I
brought in, gave him the menus, and he--from then on, I did not go in the
kitchen until noon. Then I went with my menus and went back again to the chef.
And at four o'clock, I was off duty. I didn't do it at night. I just did from
early in the morning till afternoon, after lunch.
FERNHEIMER: And you mentioned you did the shopping with a black man in the
morning, uh, who would--who drove you. Was that unusual at the time?
SHAPIRA: The black man?
FERNHEIMER: To have a driver?
SHAPIRA: You know, I didn't think about it too much. I thought that that's the
way it is. If you're going to be in the truck, or you're going to service thing,
you had a black person. I mean, to me, coming from Canada, where I knew
absolutely nothing about black people, but--except at my mother-in-law's home
00:24:00where she had a couple--black couple who worked for her. So when someone was in
a truck or doing something service people, you more or less felt that there was
going to be black people.
FERNHEIMER: Do you remember his name, the gentleman who drove you?
SHAPIRA: I don't remember his name.
FERNHEIMER: Were there other African Americans working at Jewish Hospital at the time?
SHAPIRA: I'm thinking. I think there were the--in the kitchen, I think. There
were no black nurses. I'm assuming they cleaned the--you know, cleaned the
building. It's something I never thought about. I think maybe I took it for
granted that the cooks and everybody in the kitchen were black people.
00:25:00
FERNHEIMER: It's interesting to me, because during that time in other parts of
the US, there was a lot of segregation.
SHAPIRA: I can't hear you.
FERNHEIMER: I'm sorry. It's interesting to me to hear you talk about this,
because at that time in this country, there was a lot of segregation. So to
have, uh, African Americans and non-African Americans working in the same place
is interesting. And so it sounds like that was the case--
SHAPIRA: --right--
FERNHEIMER: --at Jewish Hospital. Um--
SHAPIRA: But I don't remember the staff being other than white.
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm.
SHAPIRA: I could be completely wrong. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: Um--
SHAPIRA: Oh, except that man who drove the truck, and he worked in the hospital, too.
FERNHEIMER: Um--
SHAPIRA: That's the only one I can recall.
FERNHEIMER: Um, during that time, that was before World War II, but after the
Nuremberg Laws had been passed in Germany. To what degree did you or any of your
00:26:00patients have a sense of what was happening in Germany at the time?
SHAPIRA: I don't recall. I don't think so.
FERNHEIMER: Um--
SHAPIRA: The patients, as I remember them, most--like I told you, the maternity
ward. Uh, Jewish Hospital was very popular with the Jewish patients. I can't
remember Christians or not. And I don't recall any animosity. I think it was
very easy, safe place to work. Uh, there were a lot of German people who had
migrated over, uh, grandparents. Maybe not--not the mothers or the children, but
the grandparents were probably immigrants. But I never heard anything at that
00:27:00point in time. You know, you must remember, I'm a Canadian. Coming over here to
a country that I knew very little about. As far as their politics were
concerned, I had no idea.
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm.
SHAPIRA: Until I wanted to become an American citizen. Took five years before I
could apply. So after five years, I applied. And in those days, you met
one-on-one with a judge. Today's world, they meet groups of people coming over
here. They go before a judge, maybe six, seven, or eight, maybe ten at one time.
But in my day, there only was the--only the person, only the first person--the
only person in front of Judge Ford. There was a Judge Ford here. So after five
00:28:00years, I got papers, I was asked to go before Judge Ford in Lexington, and I was
the only one being given citizenship papers. And the thing I remember most about
it is he asked me, the judge, "Ms. Edelstein?" "Yes." "Born in Ottawa, Canada?"
"Yes." He said, "What would you do if you had a brother in Canada, and then
Canada when to war against the United States, and your brother became a soldier
with the possibility of getting killed? How would you feel about it?" I said,
"Oh, Judge Ford, I don't have to be concerned. I don't have a brother." He
collapsed. He thought, what a foolish question to ask. And that's the one thing
00:29:00I remember about becoming a citizen of the United States. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: And so that was five years after you moved here in '36. So that was
right when--
SHAPIRA: Forty-three, forty--
FERNHEIMER: --to the US was in World War II at the time.
SHAPIRA: Pardon me?
FERNHEIMER: So World War II was happening at that time when you became--
SHAPIRA: What was happening at that time?
FERNHEIMER: Uh, you became a citizen of the United States--
SHAPIRA: --yes--
FERNHEIMER: --during World War II.
SHAPIRA: Yes.
FERNHEIMER: I'm just trying to imagine where the judge's question was coming from.
SHAPIRA: Right. So that's the feeling at that point in time, because the
relationships between Canada and the United States, happy. You know, there was
no ever feeling of the--like I said, I never knew, or at that point in time,
00:30:00that there would be anything going on between the two.
FERNHEIMER: Is there anything else about your experiences at Jewish Hospital
that I haven't asked you that you think I should know or that you'd like to share?
SHAPIRA: At the Jewish Hospital? I worked there, what, two years? Um, I was
treated with the same respect as they--as Ms. Hughes, who was the head of the
department. I don't recall ever having any--anything that would happen between
our relationship, or that was happening at the Jewish Hospital. I really don't.
I think it was a wonderful experience, and I was respected, and so was Ms.
Hughes, and so--(laughter)--
00:31:00
FERNHEIMER: Okay. Um, I wonder if you can tell me a little bit more about, uh,
first meeting David. What do you remember--when you first met David, what--was it--what--
SHAPIRA: With David? (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: Was it love at first sight? Was it--
SHAPIRA: How can I say? Aunt Ray lived in the same house, 1379 South First
Street. She lived there with her mother-in-law. And--oh. Shoot. I think--uh, and
every weekend, all the boys would come in from the towns where they were
managing the stores. Elizabethtown, Bardstown, Harrodsburg, Danville, and each
of the boys took charge and lived in the town where they were. So you wanted to know--
00:32:00
FERNHEIMER: What--what was your impression of David? How did--when he came in--
SHAPIRA: Oh, he came in the front door. It's okay, he came--well, I was waiting.
I know he was coming, I knew they all four were coming. And he dressed so sharp.
I remember he wore a fedora, a straw hat--excuse me, it was summer, he wore a
straw hat. Beautiful clothes. Dimples, black hair, black curly hair. And I
always had told my mother, I want to marry a man with dimples. There he was. And
I think I fell in love with him. But being, living in the house where he came
every weekend, I couldn't help but know him more, get to know him. So every
Saturday night--this is, uh, a true tale. Every Saturday night, my mother-in-law
had a breakfast table in the nook. And every Saturday night, all five boys--four
00:33:00boys, because Gary was already married and living in the house--would come, sit
down at that breakfast room table, and have a meeting with their mother. She was
an image. I mean, she was a personality. I think you asked me about women. Well,
she was typically a woman--"You do what I say to." I mean, this is the way it
was, and the boys respected her so. And if they said something that she didn't
like--(laughter)--she had an eye that--
FERNHEIMER: (laughter) An evil eye? A stink eye?
SHAPIRA: She had one eye that was weak. And if they said something that she
didn't like, she said, "Boy, you can't do that." And she'd always wink with that
eye, because it was a little cross. (laughter)
00:34:00
FERNHEIMER: How did she--how did she wield such influence? Was it--
SHAPIRA: What, honey?
FERNHEIMER: Her influence, her power. How did she wield it? It--to have four
grown men--
SHAPIRA: Well, anyhow, okay.
FERNHEIMER: Say yes when a woman says that, that's impressive.
SHAPIRA: In Springfield, where they lived above the store, her husband died very
young. She had already had her five boys, but they--most--the youngest was only
two years old when the father died.
FERNHEIMER: Wow.
SHAPIRA: So she took over managing the store. And the oldest at that time was,
like--Gary, the oldest, had to be about seventeen years old. So he came in the
store to help her. He had to quit school to come and help her, because she had
these kids, you know, the other three children were young.
FERNHEIMER: So she was raising three small boys--
00:35:00
SHAPIRA: She was raising these children, and working the store.
FERNHEIMER: At the same time?
SHAPIRA: At the same time.
FERNHEIMER: Wow.
SHAPIRA: Pardon me?
FERNHEIMER: Wow. I'm just thinking--
SHAPIRA: Because that's just her business. They owned the building, and the
store was on the first floor, was a ba--balcony, there were stairs at the back
to go down. And above that were two more--two more of--level, what do you call them?
FERNHEIMER: Levels of the house?
SHAPIRA: The store--how many floors? Two more floors. And she lives on those two
floors above this--above the store. And every morning, she'd come down and open
the business and stay there, put her children to school, send them--go back out,
take the kid--in those days, they walked to school, and she just ran that store
00:36:00until I think I told you the date that they--she moved to Louisville.
FERNHEIMER: I think in the earlier interview, you said--I--I don't recall. Do
you recall the year right now?
SHAPIRA: I'm trying to think the date she moved here. Let's see. I got married
'38. About 1934.
FERNHEIMER: So about the--just a little bit before you met--
SHAPIRA: --David--
FERNHEIMER: --David, she had moved to Loui--
SHAPIRA: They moved to Louisville.
FERNHEIMER: And that's your Aunt Ray had met Gary?
SHAPIRA: I wish I could get--remember the date she got married. They lived--Gary
fell in love with Ray he met her.
FERNHEIMER: When she--
SHAPIRA: But he would not bring a bride to Springfield. He felt that that was no
00:37:00place for a young Jewish girl in Springfield with no one to be with. So they
bought this home on 1379 First. He went to Chicago to the merchandise mart. But
did not furnish her to--furnish that place. Then he got married and brought Aunt
Ray to Louisville. They got married in Ottawa.
FERNHEIMER: Huh.
SHAPIRA: And his mother came, and all the family--there was another family
called Berlin. They all came, got married. And he brought her back to this house
with all the furniture and the--and that's where they lived. Then a couple years
later, I came to visit, and then stay. That's how it started.
FERNHEIMER: So after you met him, you corresponded by telephone.
00:38:00
SHAPIRA: Right, mostly.
FERNHEIMER: Letters too, or no letters? Any letters?
SHAPIRA: Some.
FERNHEIMER: Some. Do you still have them?
SHAPIRA: (laughter) Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: What is--oh, what are some of the warmest things you remember from
those letters?
SHAPIRA: What?
FERNHEIMER: What--what are the--what are some of your warmer memories from those
letters or those phone calls--
SHAPIRA: From my wedding?
FERNHEIMER: From your courtship, or your wedding.
SHAPIRA: Oh, from my courtship? Yeah. Um, I came home, and I thought he was a
nice guy. But I was going with somebody else.
FERNHEIMER: Who?
SHAPIRA: Then one day, I get a telephone call, long distance from Toronto. That
was about 300 miles--are you familiar with Canada at all?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah, a little bit.
SHAPIRA: Okay. So I got a telephone call from Toronto. I don't know who that
00:39:00could be, and he said--David, "I'm on my way to visit you. I'll be there
Saturday afternoon." I said, "David," I was in shock. I said, "Oh, you can't
come Saturday afternoon. I've got a date to go tea dancing."
FERNHEIMER: Tea dancing? What is that?
SHAPIRA: Oh, that's very popular in Canada. Saturday afternoon at the big hotel,
they had an orchestra, and a ballroom, and everybody went tea dancing. You went
from three to five, and they served afternoon tea, and then you went home.
FERNHEIMER: What kind of dancing was it? Was it jitterbug? Anything?
SHAPIRA: Regular dancing.
FERNHEIMER: Regular?
SHAPIRA: Foxtrots, and waltzes. And what else did you dance in those days? An
orchestra, a four-piece orchestra, and most of your friends were there with
00:40:00their date. And if you didn't have a date to go tea dancing on Saturday
afternoon, you were miserable.
FERNHEIMER: So how did David react when you told him "I have plans"? (laughter)
SHAPIRA: How did what?
FERNHEIMER: How did he react when he was in Canada and you--to see you, and you
said "I have plans"?
SHAPIRA: Well, he--he came anyway. I didn't tell him what the plans were. And
now he came, and he stayed downtown at a hotel. I'm trying to think what else? I
called my date, and I said--his name was Hy, Hy Lesley. I said, "Hy, I'm sorry,
but I'm going to have to break the date, but we have family coming." I lied.
(laughter) "And I have to entertain them on Saturday." So that was that. I lied.
00:41:00
FERNHEIMER: And--and--and--and from then on, were you--what--you knew then?
SHAPIRA: --right--
FERNHEIMER: This was the one? Or did it evolve? Or tell me about that.
SHAPIRA: You mean when I went to visit him, or when--
FERNHEIMER: During that visit, did you know kind of right away that David was
for you?
SHAPIRA: I think so.
FERNHEIMER: Or did it take a while?
SHAPIRA: I think so. So we dated, what, how many years? Thirty--got married in
'38, and marry--graduated from college in '34, and went to visit, it was between
'34 and '38. That was four years of knowing each other back and forth. I went
there twice to visit.
FERNHEIMER: Wow.
SHAPIRA: And the second time, he proposed--
00:42:00
FERNHEIMER: --wow--
SHAPIRA: --and gave me my ring.
FERNHEIMER: And when was that? In 1936? Was that in 1936?
SHAPIRA: Yes.
FERNHEIMER: And that's when you take--took--he proposed before you took the job
at Jewish Hospital, or after? Were you already here?
SHAPIRA: Well, I--I was here. I was here, still working. And then I quit and
went home, get ready to get married. And that's all about me. Now what are you
ask--what did you--
FERNHEIMER: I have more questions. Um--
SHAPIRA: (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: --after married--but I was very curious about that, you know?
SHAPIRA: Are you--are you feeling interested in--is this part of the Jewishness?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah, there's two parts of it. Part of it is part of the Jewish
Kentucky story.
00:43:00
SHAPIRA: Right.
FERNHEIMER: And also, part of the bourbon story.
SHAPIRA: Now, a couple of things I could mention. I guess I should when that
first came here on First Street, there was an orphanage, a Jewish orphanage.
FERNHEIMER: What was the name?
SHAPIRA: It was on First Street, and I can't remember the name of it. But
anyhow, the--a lot of--a lot of people were immigrating into here, and had
babies to be taken care of, because they had nothing to do but work. The
immigrants from Germany, from Russia, it was during those pogroms where they
were--everybody was leaving. So I had to mention that, at that point in time, it
was a Jewish orphanage on First Street. I have no idea the name. I could point
the building to you, but you could find that out--
00:44:00
FERNHEIMER: --yeah--
SHAPIRA: --easily enough.
FERNHEIMER: What--uh, while we're on the businesses, names and--and things, what
was the name of the store--the family store in Springfield that your
mother-in-law ran?
SHAPIRA: The Louisville Store.
FERNHEIMER: Lou--okay, that was the Louisville Store.
SHAPIRA: Some of them were the Lincoln Store, was one in Danville. In
Harrodsburg, where I lived, the Louisville store. There were two. One was the
Louisville Store, one was the Lincoln Store. On the same street a hundred yards
from each other.
FERNHEIMER: In Harrodsburg?
SHAPIRA: In Harrodsburg.
FERNHEIMER: And which--which one sold what kinds of things?
SHAPIRA: They both sold the same thing. In the old--in those days, the farmers
were so busy that the only time they shopped was Saturday. And they shopped at
both stores. My husband stayed in the first store, the Louisville Store. And
00:45:00then the other store--there was a beauty shop upstairs. So the ladies wanted to
get their hair done in the shop in the store below the Lincoln.
FERNHEIMER: And did your husband manage both stores, or just the one store?
SHAPIRA: He was at the one. He managed both. I mean, he'd go back and forth. It
was twenty-five yards in between them. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: Um, and--
SHAPIRA: So he managed both, but we used to say that the ladies had their hair
done once a week, and they never combed it after that. That's the way it was.
FERNHEIMER: So--so what was your involvement in the family business at that
point, if any?
SHAPIRA: Oh. I came to work on Saturday, because during the week, the stores
weren't very busy at all. So they--maybe they had a staff of maybe two others.
00:46:00On Saturday, they'd have five working the store. And my involvement on Saturday,
uh, selling cosmetics, they had jars of cosmetics, ten cents a jar. And one
woman came in. The famous story was in Danville, the woman came in, and--George,
his wife worked on Saturdays in Danville with her, and the famous story is one
woman came in and said--went over to the cos--to the cosmetics, and Ruth said to
the lady, "What flavor--what--what flavor do you want?" And she didn't know
anything about that, so she'd--. Ruth says, "We have a lot of vanilla. Do you
00:47:00think you'd like the vanilla?" That was all she said to the woman, was "We have
a flavor called vanilla. Would you like that?" "Oh yes," she'd take vanilla.
That was one of the famous stories in the building--in the business.
FERNHEIMER: From the--from the cosmetics counter. Um, uh, when you were
interviewed in two thousand--
SHAPIRA: Oh, another one.
FERNHEIMER: Oh, good.
SHAPIRA: I got one more.
FERNHEIMER: Great.
SHAPIRA: I'm talking too much. What--
FERNHEIMER: No, no. This is great. You're talking just fine.
SHAPIRA: The other famous story is, they had bolts of--in those days, there were
bolts of cloth that you sold by the yard. Has your mother ever told you any of
this stuff?
FERNHEIMER: Uh, I've seen that, and I've heard it, but not from my mother. (laughter)
SHAPIRA: Well, and Stewarts, the old Stewarts here. That's a place where they
00:48:00sell material by the yard or by the bolt. So anyway, this woman comes in, and
I'm in the front. I know nothing about the store. This is the first time I'm
there. So Dave says to me, "You go to the front and greet people, and tell them
where to go to get shoe department" on the balcony. So a woman comes in and she
says she wants outing. I said, "I thought outing--" I could hardly understand
the language in the first place in the--in the little towns, you know, they had
a big a--accent. So she says, "I want something for outing." And here I am with
all the bolts of cloth. So I said, "Oh, you want outing?" I take out a bowl, a
bolt of fabric, and I said, "Here's the outing." She said, "No, not outing
00:49:00cloth. I want outing." So I tried to figure what she meant. So send it back to
the coat department to the back, to the coat department. And she says to the
lady there, "I want an outing." So she knew what she meant, I sure didn't. She
wanted a coat to where in the cold weather, so she wanted an outing coat. I had
no idea, so I told--I finally figured out if you wanted a coat to wear outing,
to wear out in the outing. So that's a famous story there that Mrs. Shapira
tried to sell her outing cloth from the bolts of cloth, and that was for
diapers, and she--
FERNHEIMER: (laughter)
SHAPIRA: --and when she wanted to go back and get a coat from the coat
department. I didn't understand one word they were saying. You know, the accent,
00:50:00you probably don't realize how heavy an accent they had way back then.
FERNHEIMER: Yeah, well, I imagine coming from Canada, it was pretty unfamiliar.
SHAPIRA: It was hard.
FERNHEIMER: Um, what was it like being a Jewish family in Springfield?
SHAPIRA: In Harrodsburg.
FERNHEIMER: Harrods--I'm sorry, I got confused. In Harrodsburg.
SHAPIRA: What was it like? I guess at the beginning--beginning, it was an
oddity. But they had worked there for a couple years as a Jewish boy working the
store. And we got the greatest respect and I was accepted in the woman's club.
Of all the people in Harrodsburg, and there was society there. The upper crust.
00:51:00Have you heard of Beaumont Inn? Did you ever hear about Beaumont Inn? It's a
very famous Kentucky eating place in Harrodsburg. And when they got married, we
couldn't find a place to live, so we had to live at Beaumont Inn. That's where
you went for a good meal. That was the place to go. And we lived there for two
years. The only people ever lived there. People would come overnight and have
dinner, but we lived there for two years until we could find a place to live.
The only ones. So we did. We found a little house, and as far as I'm concerned,
00:52:00I think we were treated with the greatest respect. And whether our religion had
anything to do with that, I don't know, but every Sunday, we had to go to a
church ice cream--Sunday night ice cream special. And I had to go. We had to go,
because my husband said, "These are our customers." The church people were our
customers, and they were the ones putting on the ice cream social. So we had to
go every Sunday, we had to go to a different church for a different ice cream
social. And that was--(laughter)--what can I tell you? That was the way it was.
And I think, as far as I'm concerned, they respected Dave and I, realized that
we were Jewish, we were invited to all the church weddings, all the socials on
00:53:00Sunday night. And even though I didn't feel that I wanted to go, we had to go.
FERNHEIMER: Were there other Jewish families in Harrodsburg at the time?
SHAPIRA: Huh?
FERNHEIMER: Were--there other Jewish families in Harrodsburg?
SHAPIRA: One.
FERNHEIMER: Who's that?
SHAPIRA: Uh, she was a single woman for a long, long time. And--(laughter)--the
story was that a shoe salesman came in. They had a store too, and she ran the
store. And the shoe salesman came in from New York and proposed to her. And they
got married. And he left being a shoe salesman and came in and ran the store for her.
FERNHEIMER: What was the name of the store? What was her name, and what was the
name of the store?
SHAPIRA: Oh, her name. Her name--I knew so well. Hattie was the other Jewish
00:54:00lady. But how would I say it? At the bank, when they ran the bank, where
the--what are you, you're the--
FERNHEIMER: The teller?
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: The--the bank teller?
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: The--
SHAPIRA: The manager of the store was a Jewish lady, single lady called Hattie.
Hattie Abrams. And she ran the bank.
FERNHEIMER: Oh, so it was a bank that she ran?
SHAPIRA: Hattie ran the bank. Hattie Abrams was--
FERNHEIMER: The bank. Okay, the bank in Harrodsburg, she ran--
SHAPIRA: The bank in Harrodsburg. She was the manager of the bank. So she was
greatly respected. And then he would--Dave and I, I have these daughter, we were
00:55:00not an oddity. We were well accepted in the family, and I cannot complain of any
anti-Semitism at all in that little town.
FERNHEIMER: What about holidays? What did you--what did you do for the holidays, for--
SHAPIRA: Came to Louisville. (laughter) Mother--my mother-in-law's home, great
big house with five beds, and we came to Louisville and stayed for that whole week.
FERNHEIMER: And for Sabbath, was--I know you worked on Saturday, but what about
Friday? Was Friday a Sabbath observance, or--
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: No.
SHAPIRA: We came for Sat--Sunday.
FERNHEIMER: Sunday.
SHAPIRA: After the store closed on Sunday. He'd pick me up, Miriam, my daughter,
we came to Louisville for Sunday. We stayed all day Sunday, and last--we came
00:56:00Saturday night after the store closed. Dave picked me up, and we came to
Louisville, parked the children, and went up to the Brown Hotel for dinner. Aunt
Ray at that time had two little girls. And with my girls, there was the three
girls there, and they had the nanny come in, and we got all dressed up. And by
9:30, we were at the Brown Hotel for dinner then.
FERNHEIMER: What did they serve at the Brown for dinner?
SHAPIRA: Delicious dinner. Chicken, roast beef, salad, vegetables, dessert. We
had a drink first. I didn't drink that much, but they had a drink. Gary and Ray
00:57:00came. Gary had a drink. George would come with Ruth. There were six of us. And
finally, Eddie found a wife, and brought her. So the numbers changed over the
years, but that's what we'd do on Saturday night. So one Saturday night, about
two months ago, three months ago, I decided to take the family there for dinner.
It was little different. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: (laughs) I can imagine.
SHAPIRA: It was nice.
FERNHEIMER: Wow. Yeah, um, is there a particular dish that stands out as
memorable from that time? That--
SHAPIRA: --wha--
FERNHEIMER: --like, a--a particular food item? As a dietician, I imagine the
food was kind of important.
SHAPIRA: Fried chicken.
FERNHEIMER: Fried chicken?
SHAPIRA: (laughter) Roast beef.
FERNHEIMER: Roast beef? Uh, so--
00:58:00
SHAPIRA: I'll tell you--do you like all these fu--I'll stop talking, you haven't
got time for all this.
FERNHEIMER: I like the funny stories. Please tell.
SHAPIRA: (laughter) Well, my mother-in-law, whatever her sons liked, she'd cook.
Somebody liked brisket, fried chicken, chicken livers, um, chopped chicken,
chopped liver. Whatever her boys, a typical mother, she made. And they liked
chicken soup with noodles. She had a great big stove with six burners.
(laughter) You're getting a kick out of this. I--do you interview people all the
time? And do they talk as much as I am?
FERNHEIMER: That's the sign of a good interview.
SHAPIRA: Oh, it may be quick.
FERNHEIMER: No, keep going.
SHAPIRA: Judy--you interviewed Judy this morning?
FERNHEIMER: I did have that pleasure.
00:59:00
SHAPIRA: And she said "Mother, don't talk too much."
FERNHEIMER: (laughter) Um, no, you're doing great. So it sounds like--I--I am
ma--your mother-in-law, what was her first name?
SHAPIRA: Annie.
FERNHEIMER: Annie. So she was Annie, and you're Anne.
SHAPIRA: I'm Anne.
FERNHEIMER: So Annie, she sounds like a force. She made whatever the boys
wanted, she kept the boys together, she ran this business. This suggests a long
history of women--
SHAPIRA: --yes--
FERNHEIMER: --a foundation, I should say--
SHAPIRA: Sure.
FERNHEIMER: --about history of women in the family business. And you were
involved after you married David.
SHAPIRA: Sure.
FERNHEIMER: Can you tell me a little bit more about your mother-in-law, about
Annie? And, uh--
SHAPIRA: Annie, she was a little--five feet tall, small, not a big woman at all.
Wore her hair back in a braid, you know, in a bun at the back of her hair. Uh,
she had that one eye, I told you that was--but she wore glasses. (laughter) You
01:00:00know, she wore--she--that was typical. She was born that way with that eye. And
every picture that we have, it's a little off, you can see. But my other famous
story, before I forget to tell you. And stop me. You haven't got time for all
this, do you?
FERNHEIMER: We're good. We're good on time.
SHAPIRA: Come on.
CREW: We're here for you.
FERNHEIMER: We're here for you. This is the whole reason why we're here.
SHAPIRA: Oh, there's a new life, a new era for you that I'm talking about.
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. It--it really is.
SHAPIRA: Uh-huh. Anyhow, the famous story. On a Sunday, in the big six burner
stove, she had pasta soup, vegetable soup, chicken soup, noodles. But they
01:01:00were--no--those days she didn't have the noodles. And it was sweet potatoes that
she started on the stove, and then put them in the oven. Anyhow, we'd come in,
and we're always there to help. The sisters then all wanted to help, so we all
did a little something, since there were twelve or fourteen people in the dining
room to feed. So the chicken soup there, when I'm in there helping. She says,
"Anne, go into the pantry." That was--here was a kitchen, here was a pantry, and
here was a dining room. And in between the kitchen and the dining room was a
pantry, a big pantry, stored with all kinds of stuff. So she said, "Anne, you go
into the pantry and pick up the noodles. It's in the blue box, and bring it into
the kitchen, and I'll put it in a pot of boiling water." Right? The noodles. So
01:02:00I go to the panty, I pick up the blue box, and I bring it into the kitchen. She
says put it in the boiling water. Take it, open up the blue bottle, put it in.
It was soap.
FERNHEIMER: Oh no! (laughter)
SHAPIRA: It was kosher soap. Kosher things came in blue boxes. So all of the
sudden, bubbles.
FERNHEIMER: (laughter)
SHAPIRA: Can you believe--can you picture what it was like? In the stove with
all the big pots of food, and the bubbles, they were going everywhere, into the
chicken soup, into the--ah! It was all--but no soup that day. (laughter) But
I'll never forget the look on everybody's face, my sisters-in-law are in the
01:03:00kitchen helping too, and here am I with the blue box. Anything kosher in those
days came in blue boxes.
FERNHEIMER: So what--did--did your mother-in-law try to maintain kashrut?
SHAPIRA: Did she what?
FERNHEIMER: Did she keep kosher?
SHAPIRA: Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: And did you all keep kosher?
SHAPIRA: Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: In Harrodsburg?
SHAPIRA: Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: So how--where did the food come from? Louisville?
SHAPIRA: Louisville. Every Sunday, my husband and I would go to the kosher deli
here, and there was a Jewish, uh, grocery store as well that kept kosher food.
I'd wait for my husband, I'd give him a list, and he'd go and pick it all up.
We'd put the--the things might spoil, we'd put those in the basement. There was
a barrel of ice, and we'd keep the kosher meat down there until we were ready to
01:04:00leave and come back to Harrodsburg.
FERNHEIMER: And how long did it take to get from Harrodsburg to Louisville, then?
SHAPIRA: About almost two hours.
FERNHEIMER: Wow.
SHAPIRA: Seventy-three miles.
FERNHEIMER: In two hours.
SHAPIRA: And at that point in time, originally, there was no expressway. It was
just a two-lane highway. And then eventually, they had a four-lane highway.
FERNHEIMER: Mm.
SHAPIRA: But there was no expressways then.
FERNHEIMER: So how long were you involved with the business in Harrodsburg? You
in the--
SHAPIRA: --with the business?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah.
SHAPIRA: I had very little involvement, other than just listening, and, you
know, and I did take people, every time I was a guest, I took them to Bardstown,
01:05:00and we had a tour, very proud of the place. We had a tour. And as far as
physically involved, no.
FERNHEIMER: Uh--
SHAPIRA: --remember when they began. I remember the whole story, but you
probably know that story.
FERNHEIMER: I kind of want to hear you tell it, though, of the brothers, um,
cause, by the time you had married, they'd already started the br--the
distilling business, right? And--
SHAPIRA: Well, we got married in '38. But the distillery started in '34. And I
told you how I met Dave, and, uh, I went out to see the distillery, and the
office was, like, uh, the size of a garage. And I went up to look and see how it
01:06:00was made. But other than that, I don't think I had any physi--emotional or
mental--no mental things. I didn't know anything about it. All I knew was what I
heard or what I saw. And I did not take part in--only in the social part, or
taking people out to tour the building. And they had people who would take you
out and explain everything, and--and other than that, I don't think I had any
physical things with the distillery. Dave, of course, did.
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Tell me what you--what you heard from Dave, and what his
experience was being involved, kind of from the ground up?
SHAPIRA: In the building--in the--in the--in the--well, we lived in Harrodsburg
01:07:00with two children at the end. And what I knew about the business is that--are
you trying to find it?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Well, and just, what it was like--I mean, David was--so
the--at the point in time that you and David were married and running the
business in Harrodsburg, there were--there were both things happening at the
same time. There was still the retail part of things, right? In Harrodsburg, the
stores. But also, this distilling part had already started up. So I guess I'm
curious about how he divided his time between those two enterprises, between the
distillery and the store.
SHAPIRA: You're talking about my husband?
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm.
SHAPIRA: Well, at that point in time, Eddie was living in Bardstown, Eddie. And
he was in charge of the--the distillery. Basically, they left Eddie Shapira
there to run. But you must remember at that point in time, there was one
01:08:00warehouse, the little office, and another building that they built to make the
bourbon. But bourbon ha--to be sold as bourbon, I think Judy might have told
you, it has to be in a barrel for two years in--in the store rooms for two
years. So the more they made, the more warehouses they need to store the
barrels. So that's how the business, your seeing it today, it's an amazing
business. And in fact, they make it in Louisville, a lot of it, and truck it out
to Bardstown to be put in barrels.
FERNHEIMER: That's after the fire, right? That they--
SHAPIRA: What, honey?
FERNHEIMER: --they started making more of it in Louisville after the fire, correct?
01:09:00
SHAPIRA: Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: Um, so I guess, can you tell me, was your mother-in-law--
SHAPIRA: --should put--
FERNHEIMER: --was--oh, you want to put that back in? (laughter)
SHAPIRA: Without me and my hands. This is, like, six months old, eight. Put it
in, right? Wa--wasn't it?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And about--yeah, about the distillery.
SHAPIRA: But when I first went up there and saw it, the office would look like a
garage, about the size of a garage. And the distillery, you had to go upstairs
to look into this big barrel where they had all the ingredients that you used.
01:10:00You know, the wheat and the rye, soaking in water. Huge tubs, and the bubbles
were coming up over the top. So were the flies. I took my sister there, she
goes, "Oh! I wouldn't drink that whiskey. Look at all the flies that are on it."
And then they showed us the still where all the liquids had stayed there
forty-eight hours, I think. And then it was piped over to the distillery, where
the water was--the grain was taken out of the water. And what you had left was
alcohol. And the alcohol had to go into the barrels to become bourbon. So I
01:11:00could go on a long time about the process. But I'm sure as you--did Judy tell
you anything?
FERNHEIMER: I--the--the--I--sh--I didn't hear from Judy as much about the
process. I'm curious about, um--
SHAPIRA: But the--that was the process. It was a big tub, stayed there
for--for--to the grain, you know, forty-eight hours. And then it went through
the process, taking out the grain, and in the still, what you had was bourbon.
But not really bourbon until it aged in barrels. The liquid had to wait in
barrels for two years. And after that, it was taken out of the barrels, put in
bottles, and that's what you had. But the older--the longer it stayed in the
barrel, the better it was. So until they were able to sell it, it was three
01:12:00years before they could put it in a bottle to sell. And the longer it was in the
barrel, the more expensive it was.
FERNHEIMER: Right. Can you pause a moment?
[Pause in recording.]
FERNHEIMER: Was Annie involved in the distillery business at all? Can I ask?
SHAPIRA: She advised. I mean, she listened. And advised them, probably. But she
really didn't know anything about the bourbon business--
FERNHEIMER: --um--
SHAPIRA: --but they respected her and included her in all their meetings--
FERNHEIMER: --hmm--
SHAPIRA: --and remember I told you on Saturday night, all the boys met in the
breakfast room, and she listened. I think they respected her, but I don't think
01:13:00she knew anything about the bourbon business. That was--that was where they took
their money from selling--they sold all the stores. Or they closed them down,
rather. They didn't sell. They just closed them down. And instead of putting
money into that business, each of the fi--am I talking more than I should?
FERNHEIMER: No, you're fine.
SHAPIRA: Well, each of the boys took ten thousand dollars. The bank--let me go
back, quickly tell you, the bank called the Shapira boys, and they said there
was a distillery abandoned. This is now after Prohibition. The--the--getting to
start working at distilleries again. And as I understand it, the bank called the
01:14:00five brothers and said there's a man here, does business at the bank, and he
says there's an abandoned distillery, and he'd like to open up that distillery,
but he doesn't have enough money. And he wondered if the Shapira brothers would
help him with the money, open up the distillery, get a distiller, a man who can
run it, knows how--the business. And would the Shapira boys like to go in
business with him? That's the--so the bank said, "We will all talk to the
Shapira boys." So each of the Shapira boys put up ten thousand dollars, the bank
put up ten thousand dollars. That man wound up with ten thousand dollars, and
they opened up the distillery. They found--his name was--what's his name,
Charlie--Charles--oh, Charlie, Charlie--he became the, uh, director of the
01:15:00ma--operator of the distillery. Charlie DeSpain. D-e-S-p-a-i-n. And he opened up
the distillery, became the manager of the distillery, the Sha--Shapira brothers
know nothing, Charlie did. And they opened up the distillery, and before long,
after two years, they have barrels of bourbon. And that's how it all began.
FERNHEIMER: And so you said that most of the time, they came into Louisville on
Saturday night--on Saturday, the brothers came to Louisville. And--and that they
kept Annie, their mom, involved in the process--
SHAPIRA: --yes--
FERNHEIMER: --but she wasn't decision making. But she--
01:16:00
SHAPIRA: Not physically, but mentally and emotionally, she helped.
FERNHEIMER: And in your 2007 interview, long--not so long, but a while ago.
SHAPIRA: Now say that again.
FERNHEIMER: When you were interviewed in 2007, when you--in the interview you
gave in 2007--
SHAPIRA: --I did--
FERNHEIMER: --you did?
SHAPIRA: I didn't know that. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: The one in-- at the University of Louisville.
SHAPIRA: I can't remember where it went. (laughter)
FERNHEIMER: Um, you said a couple of things about your mother-in-law that I want
to ask you about.
SHAPIRA: Okay.
FERNHEIMER: One was you said she would say, "Boys, children, you have five
fingers on your hands."
SHAPIRA: That's right.
FERNHEIMER: "If you lose one finger, you can't function as well, so you have to
keep the count."
SHAPIRA: That's right.
FERNHEIMER: And, um, that that was something she said over and over again, and
something that you quote.
SHAPIRA: Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: And you've described the family later in that interview as "the most
unusual family that I had ever met or heard of," because when have you ever
01:17:00heard of five brothers who agree. Um, and--and that that seems to me a really
powerful story of family. I wonder if there were some other--uh, if you told me
some great ones about the blinking eye--(laughter)--and--and what she didn't
like. But are there other powerful memories you have of your mother-in-law?
SHAPIRA: My mother-in-law? Yes. Uh, I was living, of course, in Canada, uh,
Ottawa. You know, my hometown, 99 Powell Avenue. But anyhow, my mother-in-law
came to visit. Wha--when we became engaged, my mother-in-law came with George,
and the chauffer, and a Cadillac, and George Ray. George Ray was a black man who
worked for my mother-in-law, and met his wife there, and they married. But
01:18:00George Ray was a chauffeur for my mother-in-law, stoked the furnace, cleaned the
house, grocery shopped, and took my little mother-in-law anywhere she wanted to
go in the Cadillac. So she wants to--she's coming into Louisville for my
wedding. At that point in time, the Dione quintuplets were born. Are you familiar?
FERNHEIMER: No.
SHAPIRA: You did not know anything about Dione--well, north of Can--north of
Ottawa, up in Northern Canada, in this little bitty town, a woman, a French
Canadian, had five babies at one time, the quintuplets. You never heard--you're kidding.
FERNHEIMER: Unh-uh.
SHAPIRA: Honestly?
FERNHEIMER: Honestly! I'm learning as you speak.
SHAPIRA: I could stay here for hours! You'd make me go home. You need to get
01:19:00your lunch, or go out and get lunch and bring it here. Okay, it's ten to one.
Anyhow, up in this little northern town of about two hundred people, this woman,
French Canadian, had five children. They were known as the quintuplets. The
Dione, D-i-o-n-e [sic] quintuplets. Now here they are. One doctor, five babies
at one time, born in a little house, barely two rooms in there. So it was a
miracle! And everybody from all over, all the news people who were coming up to
write about them, and the medical fraternities were coming up to write about
these little bitty babies. I think the ol--the--if I recall correctly, the
01:20:00biggest one was two pounds eight ounces, and there were five of them. And I
think altogether, they weighed about fourt--thirteen pounds.
FERNHEIMER: Whoa!
SHAPIRA: So it became a place where everybody went. It was an oddity, like going
to a museum. So my mother-in-law, the little--my mother-in-law says to George
Ray, the chauffer, "I want to see the quintuplets." And here she is, ninety
years old. E--so, she--I couldn't go because I was getting engaged and having a
big party, so she takes George Ray, and she goes up way north, North Bay, to see
the quintuplets. Can you imagine, this little old lady?
FERNHEIMER: (laughter) She's, like, ninety at the time?
SHAPIRA: Uh-huh.
FERNHEIMER: Well, and what did she say when she came back?
01:21:00
SHAPIRA: They came the same day.
FERNHEIMER: Wow.
SHAPIRA: They went up to see, it was bout two, three hundred miles. Early in the
morning, she leaves, she goes to see the quintuplets, and they're only on
display at certain days--certain hours of the day. They have a nurse with the
babies, maybe two, and they showed them at a certain hour, and she looked at the
babies, and she looks, comes home the same day.
FERNHEIMER: Did she have anything to say about the experience? Did she say--
SHAPIRA: Yeah, she says--I said, "Mother, why are you doing--" She says, "Anna,
it's a once--." She had a little accent. She says "It once in a lifetime." She
says, "How often would you have five babies, and only being two hundred miles
away?" This is how she'd act, like I'm so--how could you do this? How could you
not go and see these five babies? So she did.
01:22:00
FERNHEIMER: Did she speak mostly English, or did she--
SHAPIRA: She spoke English all the time, perfectly as far--but with a little accent.
FERNHEIMER: Did she speak Yiddish as well?
SHAPIRA: She spoke sh--uh, I never heard her speak it that much. But she spoke it.
FERNHEIMER: Did you speak Yiddish?
SHAPIRA: I--I wish I could. I'm not demeaning it in any way, but I didn't speak
either. I understood most of it.
FERNHEIMER: Did your parents speak, or no?
SHAPIRA: What, honey?
FERNHEIMER: Did your parents speak Yiddish or no?
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: No.
SHAPIRA: But they spoke English. Every once in a while, there were Jewish
expressions, you know, that you use, and--(laughter)--I think one of them I
remember the most is oy vey tze [sic] mir. You know that one?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah.
SHAPIRA: (laughter) That means "Oh my God," doesn't it? Are you Jewish?
01:23:00
FERNHEIMER: I am.
SHAPIRA: Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: Um, I don't speak Yiddish, but my grandmother did. Does. Did.
SHAPIRA: Your parents?
FERNHEIMER: Mm, my father's parents are German, were German. Or they've passed.
Uh, so no, they spoke German.
SHAPIRA: So you live here, and your last name is--
FERNHEIMER: --Fernheimer. Fernheimer.
SHAPIRA: Fernheimer.
FERNHEIMER: Very German. Um, but my mother's family came from Russia.
SHAPIRA: Are your mother and dad here, living here?
FERNHEIMER: No, but they're in--(laughter)--they're in Maryland.
They're--they're in Maryland. That's where I grew up.
SHAPIRA: Oh, that's where. Okay.
FERNHEIMER: Um, yeah. Let me come back to this idea of family, and that
commitment to family that Annie instilled. Um, do you--how do you think this
strong commitment to family and consensus is the--
SHAPIRA: How the--just come louder, because--
FERNHEIMER: --sure--
SHAPIRA: --I hate it but--
FERNHEIMER: How--how did her--how did the commitment to family that she
01:24:00instilled in--in the business and in the brothers influence the next
generation--Max and Harry?
SHAPIRA: How did they connect in the business? How do you--what was their part
in it?
FERNHEIMER: How did--how did Annie's values of you've got to keep the count--
SHAPIRA: My mother-in-law's values?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. That idea of keeping the count and--and taking care of your
brothers. And how did that influence the next generation--Max, Harry--in the way they--
SHAPIRA: --oh, I know what you're trying to say. Yeah. I think it was a big
influence, uh, because Eddie was Max's father, and David, Harry's father. And
they accepted them--it was sort of a--a--a known thing, that the children, the
boys, would take over. Now the girls--um, my daughter got married early. She was
01:25:00not interested in a--but your husband was. So when she married her husband, they
moved to Bardstown and lived there for about two years. But Armand Ostroff,
Miriam's husband, was an accountant, and he had a degree in accountant--he's an
accountant, CPA, and a--and an attorney.
FERNHEIMER: Hmm.
SHAPIRA: So I would say that he was better off. He was a kind of a man, who
think--I think had to be in charge of his business. And to work with five boys
was not easy. I would say it wasn't easy with anyone but the family. So he came
01:26:00back. He lived in Harrodsburg--I mean, in Bardstown two years, and then he came
back to Louisville, and went into business for himself.
FERNHEIMER: Mm. So it was hard for him.
SHAPIRA: Right.
FERNHEIMER: And Miriam wasn't interested at all?
SHAPIRA: But Harry, Miriam's husband--and David--unfortunately, Harry passed
away two years ago. And Armand went into business for himself. That's my family.
And Armand passed away two months ago.
FERNHEIMER: Oh, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize.
SHAPIRA: You didn't know that. So he was involved in the business for a while,
and into business for himself. And he passed away very suddenly. He had Alzheimer's.
01:27:00
FERNHEIMER: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. That's a hard disease.
SHAPIRA: So that's what happened this past week. And as far as involvement, you
mean, you're talking about Harry?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Harry and Max. Do they have the same sense of sticking-togetherness--
SHAPIRA: --yeah, I--
FERNHEIMER: --with his father, David, and the other brothers?
SHAPIRA: I think so.
FERNHEIMER: And how did that influence your family life, being part of this big,
family enterprise?
SHAPIRA: Well, with the five brothers, we stuck to--I mean, we always had family
things together, Passover, holidays. Uh, I'm trying to think what else. Uh,
we--Max had a--uh, married into Ellen--it was Ellen. And Ellen came from the temple.
01:28:00
FERNHEIMER: --mm-hmm--
SHAPIRA: She's Reform. And we were not. So Max starts going to the Reform
synagogue, where the rest of us were going to Keneseth Israel or Adath
Jeshurun--Adath Jeshurun, mainly. But Max and his family belonged to the temple.
So that made not a rift, a--a separation because of their--Ellen wanted to be
with her family, naturally, and Harry wanted to be with Adath Jeshurun or
Keneseth. So the big difference was, between--and the only big difference I saw
was in the religion.
FERNHEIMER: And the way they observed?
SHAPIRA: But that didn't stop us from being a family.
FERNHEIMER: Ah.
01:29:00
SHAPIRA: Except at the holiday time. (laughter) We--Adath Jeshurun--like, for
instance, on Yom Kippur, stayed all day, with Max and his family, they were out
at five in the afternoon. So Yom Kippur, we weren't together.
FERNHEIMER: You couldn't do break-fast together. Got it. Um, I wonder if you
could talk--in your earlier interview, you mentioned the women who were working
on the bottling line. Um, I think you were talking about the bottling process
itself, but I'm wondering if you can tell me a little bit more about the
women--the women involved in the bottling, and if there are other ways that women--
SHAPIRA: I don't remember any other place, but in--in the bottling line.
01:30:00
FERNHEIMER: And were any of them--
SHAPIRA: They had to have a supervisor for the ladies, but I don't remember too
much about that. But on each side of this machinery, I guess you'd call it,
where the bottles came down, and were automatically filled, and on each side of
this--I guess you'd call it, like, a running board? What would you call it,
where all the bottles were on a--the bottles were filled--
FERNHEIMER: Like, a conveyor belt?
SHAPIRA: And they--they were filled, and came over on the top--on the top,
the--filled bottles were coming over to you, came down, and you were on the
bottling line, and they came on a--on a--a running--like, what do you call a
running board? Like, a--uh, that--that runs with the full bottles on it. What do
01:31:00you call it?
FERNHEIMER: Is it a conveyor belt?
SHAPIRA: We just ca--like, a conveyor. It was a conveyor here, and the bottles
were on there, and on each side were women, taking a bottle, pasting on a label,
and a stamp. Every bottle had to have a government stamp on it. So these girls
on one side, they were putting on the labels. On the other side, they were
putting on the stamps. So by the time it got to the end of the runway, or what--what--what--
FERNHEIMER: Conveyor belt?
SHAPIRA: What do you call it? By the time they got there, there were bo--boxes
overhead. And these boxes ran down from the top. And by the time they got to the
bottom, the bottles were ready to put in the boxes. And they were put in the
01:32:00boxes upside down, sealed, and the time and the date was put on it, and it had a
conveyor, another conveyor that took them into the warehouse. It was just all
done automatically. But the women, the only time I saw women involved was when
they were putting the stamps on the bottle, and the labels on the other side.
There was one woman in another room who took certain bottles and put blue wax on
them, and now those bottles were more expensive than the others.
FERNHEIMER: And was she--that woman in the other room, does she taste the bottles?
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: Or she just was instructed which ones to put?
SHAPIRA: Yeah. But other than that, I don't--didn't see women involved. Uh, I
01:33:00wasn't there all the time. This is just what I--maybe Judy would have known
some--did she give the same questions to Judy?
FERNHEIMER: Some yes, some no. Obviously, she didn't know about some of the--
SHAPIRA: --fine--
FERNHEIMER: --some--some are the same, and some are different.
SHAPIRA: Well, of course, because I'm way back before her time.
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. If you--so you know a little bit about the project I told you about.
SHAPIRA: About what?
FERNHEIMER: About the project J.T. and I are doing, the graphic novel. So if you
were telling a story about women and bourbon, what was your--
SHAPIRA: Say women in--
FERNHEIMER: If--if you were writing a story about women and bourbon--
SHAPIRA: --uh-huh--
FERNHEIMER: --what would your first chapter be?
SHAPIRA: The only women physically that I saw, what you saw. Uh, Max had a
01:34:00secretary, and she was very helpful to him. And in--in the office. And the--you
know, they have a building that's the office. And it had a staff in there of
people, but I didn't think that they were physically involved--you know, hands
on. They were just in the--in the reco--keeping records and--of all--everything
that happened. And other than that, I don't know or can't think of any woman who
was involved. There was no family of women involved.
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm.
SHAPIRA: To my knowledge, I didn't live in Bardstown, and I don't know if there
01:35:00are any other people who were physically involved, I don't think.
FERNHEIMER: Are there any stories or legends from the bourbon business that you
want to share?
SHAPIRA: Trying to think. No, I think I told you everything there is to know
about the bourbon business. There was a Jewish family way back involved, in the
Jew--very well known. What's the name of the top brand of the business?
FERNHEIMER: The bourbon?
SHAPIRA: What, honey?
FERNHEIMER: The Bernheim family? Or was there another family--
SHAPIRA: The Bernheim family? No. They were involved at some point. There's
another Jewish family from Canada that was involved.
FERNHEIMER: Oh, the Seagrams?
SHAPIRA: Seagram family originated in Montreal.
01:36:00
FERNHEIMER: And the Bronfman.
SHAPIRA: Yeah. And I knew a couple of them personally, but not as far as bourbon
is concerned.
FERNHEIMER: You knew them socially from Canada? You knew them socially while you
were growing up in Canada?
SHAPIRA: The family were Montreal, and I knew them personally. And they had a
daughter my age, and we belonged to the same sorority in McGill University. But
then I got married, so, you know, two years later, after I graduated, life began
to change. I met Harry, I met Dave, and I knew that that's what was going to be.
As far as the bourbon business is concerned there, I--I only knew about it, and
I knew that they were very wealthy, and that they had started this business. And
that's basically--wasn't interested in the bourbon business at that point.
01:37:00
FERNHEIMER: What--what was your friend's name, from Canada? Your--the friend in
Canada? Who--who--
SHAPIRA: My family?
FERNHEIMER: Your friend, the one you just mentioned who was involved. I don't
know if she was a Seagram or a Bronfman. You mentioned your friend from the
sorority at McGill.
SHAPIRA: Yes.
FERNHEIMER: What was her name?
SHAPIRA: Oh, her name was--from the family--what'd you say the name of the
bourbon was?
FERNHEIMER: Bronfman or--
SHAPIRA: Bronfman.
FERNHEIMER: Bronfman. What was her first name?
SHAPIRA: My friend's name? Oh, I'm trying to remember. So many years ago.
FERNHEIMER: (laughter) I can imagine.
SHAPIRA: But, uh, we were good friends, and I--but I moved away. And af--you
know, after I moved, I don't think I kept up the relationship very well.
FERNHEIMER: You--um, you told a couple of stories of the role of, uh, of African
01:38:00Americans at, uh, Jewish Hospitals, and, um, and Annie's driver. And I wonder--
SHAPIRA: Oh, there's one thing I'll say. My mother-in-law had this black man. He
chauffeured her around. And the Jewish name for a black man is a shokher. Are
you familiar with that?
FERNHEIMER: Shokher? I haven't heard shokher.
SHAPIRA: A shokher.
FERNHEIMER: I mean, I know shokher is--yeah.
SHAPIRA: A shvartza is a woman. A shvartza is a black woman.
FERNHEIMER: Oh, shvartza--yeah, I have heard that name.
SHAPIRA: And a black man is a shokher. So my mother-in-law had this man, this
shokher, that she called him. Any time she wanted anything, she'd say, "Call the
shokher." His name was George Ray, but she referred to him as the shokher. So I
01:39:00wrote my mother, my dad, and I said, "Mother, Aunt Ray married into a family
that's very wealthy. They have a chauffeur for the car." Chauffeur. I thought
when she said "shokher," she was referring to "chauffeur," driving a car, and he
did drive a car.
FERNHEIMER: (laughter)
SHAPIRA: So I wrote my mother to tell her this story to--(gasp)--and Ray married
into a very wealthy family. They've got this chauffeur for the car. Shokher was
a black man also, and that was a famous story in the family, that Anne thought
that Aunt Ray married into this very wealthy family who could afford a chauffeur
for the car.
FERNHEIMER: (laughter) I--so that's one way that, uh, African Americans have
01:40:00come, sort of, into the industry on the sidelines. Uh, that was recently--
SHAPIRA: --that's right--
FERNHEIMER: --a story in the New York Times about, uh, a slave, an African
American slave, who had a role at Jack Daniels in the distillation process. Are
there any other stories that you've heard about women or African Americans or
other Jews who were involved in bourbon or alcohol that you think we should know about?
SHAPIRA: Afro-Americans, or Jews? Not really. Uh, eh, I was trying to think of
it last night. Um, if I knew anybody Afro-American or any Jewish women involved.
I'm sure they were, but I'm sure I didn't pay much attention. Um, the heads of
01:41:00all the distilleries, I don't know any Jewish person or anyone who could go into
that category at all.
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. W--what was--what can you tell us about the experience of
these five Jewish brothers running a distillery, in what was then and now a
mostly non-Jewish industry of bourbon?
SHAPIRA: Well, I think the fact that we had the stores in Bardstown. That--they
were in the--they were in the right place at the right time, because Prohibition
was over. And they were by accident, I guess, they were asked by the bank if
they would like to give money, invest their money in the distillery. So at that
01:42:00point in time, we called it Uncle Sam--what was his name, that began opening
shopping centers all over? What was his name?
FERNHEIMER: You described it as--as Walmart in the earlier--earlier in your--
SHAPIRA: Walmart. The Walmarts began coming into these little towns, and before
you know it, uh, Louisville--I mean, the Louisville stores, any of the stores,
would not have business, because the farmers and everybody would be going to
Walmarts. So they closed the stores on purpose. They did it on purpose, not
because they didn't have enough going on. But the future was Walmart. There was
no future for the Louisville stores. So they closed them and took that money and
01:43:00invested it in the distilleries. That's how it happened.
FERNHEIMER: To what extent do you think that the success they had with all those
businesses, all those stores all across Kentucky influenced the way they did
business at the distillery itself, or how successful they were able to become?
You talked about how your husband insisted that you go to the church social.
SHAPIRA: Yeah.
FERNHEIMER: --to mix with the customers. Do you think that influence--or how do
you think that influenced the--the way they did the--the distillation business?
SHAPIRA: How do you think--say that again?
FERNHEIMER: Sorry. It's a kind of complicated question, but so you have these
five brothers, all spread all across the state of Kentucky--
SHAPIRA: --right--
FERNHEIMER: --with these small stores. And even though the stores are closed,
they have these networks, right, of customers and relationships that they've
built over the years with the families in those towns. And I guess I'm trying to
01:44:00ask, how those relationships, right, the chu--all those church socials you went
to, uh, if--how that influenced the way they did business once they switched
over to the bourbon business. Did--did that influence--
SHAPIRA: Well, let's see. Uh, they knew that Eddie would be the f--the one to
take care of it, because he was living in the--in the--in the area. He was
living in the right--uh, in the right atmosphere, the right place at the right
time, because Prohibition was over. And once Prohibition was over, and they had
their--someone approached them to put their money in there, it was not
diff--difficult to close the stores. They all became in--involved in it. In
01:45:00closing the stores in Harrodsburg, um, Dave would go into Bardstown. It was only
a f--what, thirty, thirty-five miles. And George would--George and his wife
decided to move to Louisville. So he moved to Louisville and more or less
retired, except going to Bardstown whenever he felt like going to Bardstown. In
the meantime, we had a building downtown on Main Street. And that became the
focal point at the beginning of the s--before they closed the stores, they had
this big building, 528 West Main, and that became like a warehouse for all
the--all the stores until they closed. And after they closed, then it just
became the office downtown for the dis--for the distillery to have a downtown
01:46:00office, other than the one in Bardstown. So 528, from being just a place for the
five--for the stores to have their merchandise, became the office for the Heaven
Hill. After they closed the store, that became their office, at 528 Main Street.
Am I making it clear?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah, yeah.
SHAPIRA: They had, at the beginning, the store was 500 Main Street, but they
sold that. That was up near Sixth and Seventh and Main, this one is near Fifth
and Main. Have you been down to--you have not?
FERNHEIMER: Not in a while. I haven't been--I have not--I've been to the--the
Heritage Experience in Bardstown, but I have not yet been to the Evan Williams Experience.
SHAPIRA: That's downtown. You girls ought to go.
01:47:00
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. Um, so did your role change over the years? How did your role change?
SHAPIRA: Say that again.
FERNHEIMER: How did your role change over the years?
SHAPIRA: My role? Well, I was just basically a mother. Uh, I was always involved
in National Council for Jewish Women, the synagogue, and all that stuff. And how
did my role change with regard to the distillery?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. And just--or just, uh, you've lived, God bless--(laughter)--a
long life. How has your role in the business, and also in the Jewish community,
changed over the years?
SHAPIRA: Uh, when I moved here, I didn't know anything, anybody, you know? Just
the family. And, um, I immediately joined National Council of Jewish Women. And
01:48:00there was another girl who was a dietician, also a Jewish girl. And I found out
about her, and I called her, and we became friends. Still friends.
FERNHEIMER: What's her name?
SHAPIRA: What, honey?
FERNHEIMER: What--uh, what's her name?
SHAPIRA: Oh. Suzanne Hammill. She is--as we speak, she's getting ready to move
to Chicago.
FERNHEIMER: Okay.
SHAPIRA: She's a widow, she has two children, one in Chicago, and she's moving
up there. All these years. I met her in 1950, when I moved here. So she's
moving, at this point. But how did my--what was the question again? How did I--
FERNHEIMER: How did your role in the business and/or the Jewish community change
over the years?
SHAPIRA: I had no role at all in the business. Uh, a couple of times, I think I
01:49:00planned parties for the family, and so on and so forth. Uh, business-wise, no.
FERNHEIMER: And i--in the Jewish community? So you said you--
SHAPIRA: The Jewish community, I was president of the Hadas--Hadassah one time.
Um, been very, uh, active in the building where I lived. Uh, I was always
active, raising mons for--money for the National Council for, uh, what do you
call it here? The--
FERNHEIMER: Jewish women? Or?
SHAPIRA: No, the Jewish Federation.
FERNHEIMER: Federation, okay.
SHAPIRA: The Federation. I was always active with that, and had many fundraiser
affairs. And I guess--I remember, I got the linen showers for Hadassah. I did
01:50:00the linen showers for the whole thing. And I was just always available if they
needed someone to raise money from the women, uh, women or--you know, for the
women of Louisville.
FERNHEIMER: Um, and kind of related question, how--how would you describe your
Jewish identity now, and how it's changed over time?
SHAPIRA: I al--I--at this stage of the game--(laughter)--at my age, I--I think
my physical involvement is not there. I'd like -- I go to whatever they have,
and what is there, but I'm not doing it like I do the linen showers that I held
01:51:00for different organizations. Um, I have been written up in the paper for a--I
put on a pic--a seder at Adath Jeshurun. They took pictures of all that. I had a
furniture company bring in a dining room table. I borrowed dishes and everything
else from Dil--not Dillard's. What's the dish place here? Anyhow, I put on
different--because of being a dietician, because of my involvement with food, I
put on a seder. For some people to learn how to put on a seder. That was one of
my big things. But I'm proud to be Jewish. I'm proud of all the things I've done
in--in the community. And what can I say? I feel I've made a mark someplace.
01:52:00
FERNHEIMER: Is there--um, I've got two short questions I'll ask.
SHAPIRA: What, honey?
FERNHEIMER: I have two--uh, just a few more questions. Um--
SHAPIRA: That thunder?
FERNHEIMER: Yeah. (laughter) It's pretty loud. When you--
SHAPIRA: My girl that's out there and she--she must be hungry.
FERNHEIMER: W--we'll wrap up here, I promise. When you--when you told a story
about your aunt g--your aunt, uh, Ray and and Gary trying to move things--
SHAPIRA: I told a story? Say that louder, honey.
FERNHEIMER: In your--in the last interview you gave, in 2007, you told a story
about your Aunt Ray and Gary trying to--
SHAPIRA: About what?
FERNHEIMER: Aunt--your Aunt Ray and Gary trying to move into a particular
neighborhood, St. John, James Count. Um, but being unable to because the owner
refused to sell them the house--
01:53:00
SHAPIRA: --oh, I know what you're ta--
FERNHEIMER: --when he found out when Gary was Jewish. Did you or your husband ever--
SHAPIRA: That was my mother-in-law.
FERNHEIMER: That was your mother-in-law.
SHAPIRA: When Gary--when they moved here from Springfield, they wanted to get a
home in that neighborhood. Third Street?
FERNHEIMER: Uh-huh. And so it wasn't Gary.
SHAPIRA: And because they were--they were Jewish, apparently they had an
organization with the--all the tenants, those--and they refused to allow this
Jewish person to buy a home there. That's why they bought the house on Third--or
on First Street.
FERNHEIMER: Did you and your husband ever encounter a similar--did you and David
ever encounter similar kinds of discrimination?
SHAPIRA: Say that as--I didn't hear.
FERNHEIMER: Did you and David ever have similar experiences of discrimination?
SHAPIRA: You mean in Harrodsburg?
FERNHEIMER: Or wherever.
SHAPIRA: As being Jewish? Uh, not really, that I paid attention to.
01:54:00
FERNHEIMER: Um--
SHAPIRA: You know, because we were Jewish, you're asking me if we were not
accepted someplace, or--
FERNHEIMER: Yeah, or if you experienced some kind of discrimination.
SHAPIRA: No.
FERNHEIMER: No?
SHAPIRA: I can't say I did.
FERNHEIMER: And do you think David's Jewishness influenced the way he ran his business?
SHAPIRA: I--that's a question, isn't it? No, I think the people he did business
with were all Christians. He was accepted everywhere. He was a Mason. Uh, and I
01:55:00see--I can't think of any animosity or anti-Semitism. But then on the same hand,
same subject, we did not seek out Christian friends, because we had enough
Jewish friends. And in this little town, I was accepted in to the woman's club.
Uh, I don't know whether I should say that, uh, that had anything to do with
being Jewish. It's that I was one of the women that, you know, my hus--I--I
don't remember anything, any anti--anti-Semitism in that town. And as far as
01:56:00Louisville here is concerned, I live in this community of a hundred and twenty,
you know, over at the Glenview, there are a hundred and twenty apartments. Uh, I
think there probably are forty Jewish people over there, and I don't recall
having any kind of animosity. Some of my best friends and my neighbors across
the way, he's Jewish, she's gentile, but they live at more--they don't go to
church and they don't go to synagogue. Wonderful people, and there are quite
a--I don't know many couples that are basically one Jewish one Christian in the
building. There are a few, but I don't see any animosity, any anti-Semitism.
01:57:00That's the word that's--
FERNHEIMER: Um, I just had a question that just went out of my mind. Um, were
there families that you socialized with, or were close with, um, over the years?
Either in the business, or was it mostly that you--did you mostly socialize with
the other families?
SHAPIRA: It was mostly family. Uh, the o--Charlie DeSpain was the manager of the distill--distillery.
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm.
SHAPIRA: He was a devout Catholic. His wife was killed in an automobile
accident. He was left with four children, four girls. And we were friends. Uh,
and over the years, I've never experienced any kind of animosity.
FERNHEIMER: And you talked about how the family, it was so unusual because they
01:58:00never disagreed. That was back in 2007. Has anything changed? Has there been a
moment where there's been some disagreements in the family, either over business
or other things?
SHAPIRA: Well, uh, what--what's happened was, nineteen--uh, sorry, 1934, when
the distilleries started, they closed the store. And so we--the wives, as far as
I knew--Sylvia and Ed lived in Bardstown. Eddie bec--uh, Sylvia became very much
involved in the society in Bardstown. And as women, we were only there to cook
01:59:00and be our husbands' companions. They had--if they had any kind of affairs where
the women could go, you know, as they put on conventions in Bardstown, different
things like that. We were involved, only because we were present--present. But
we didn't--really didn't do anything physically.
FERNHEIMER: Mm-hmm. Is there anything else you want to share that I haven't
had--anything else you'd like to add that I haven't had the chance to ask you?
SHAPIRA: About the role of women in the bourbon business? Is that--
FERNHEIMER: No, just anything that I haven't asked you that you'd like to share
on record about being Jewish in Louisville, about having moved from Canada, your
experiences, anything, um, that I--I just didn't ask about.
SHAPIRA: You didn't--I think I've told you my all--whole experience, and how
02:00:00immediately I was a citizen of Harrodsburg, this little town. And they treated
Harry--uh, Dave, and I with the greatest respect, invited us to their weddings,
and, uh, to the church socials. Uh, my best friends there were lovely women that
I associated with. But every week, we came to Louisville, until our--basically
our social life was in Louisville. And I love my neighbors. He was,
uh--(laughter)--it's getting late. My little girl's up there, she must be starving.
FERNHEIMER: Yeah, that's my last question, so--
02:01:00
SHAPIRA: Two o'clock, almost two. So what I started to tell you about--
FERNHEIMER: I just asked if there was anything you hadn't told me that you
wanted to.
SHAPIRA: I even told you about the story at the hospital. Don't put that on
tape. (laughter) Uh, I think I've been very fortunate. Uh, my little daughter
was accepted, Miriam. Uh, she had--went to kindergarten with the Christian
girls. They invited her over to spend the night, like everybody else. Um, I
associated with the women, uh, in women's club. Like I said before, my
sister-in-law lived in Danville--George, his wife. Eddie and his wife lived
in--in Harrods--in Bardstown. So basically, my social life, with Jewish people,
02:02:00with--with my sisters-in-law. I didn't have to reach out anywhere. I didn't--I'm
just happy that I was well and able to be a good wife. David was a wonderful
husband. I had two children, my son was an amazing young man. Harry, you've
probably been told from Judy. I avoided talking about it because I felt she told
you all about Harry. And my son was very fortunate. And Judy has been an amazing
daughter-in-law. Every day, I would contact, every week, dinner. And so I
02:03:00haven't had to reach out for more. I do at home, at my building, I play bridge
twice a week. I have this group of girls, uh, physically that way, see them. We
have a social life of our own. And luckily I'm on my two feet. I'm a hundred and
two, and--(laughter)--I'm kind of proud of that.
FERNHEIMER: I think that's worth being proud of.
SHAPIRA: I kid when I say I have eyeglasses and a hearing aid, but I've got all
my teeth.
FERNHEIMER: (laughter) I am so delighted and honored that you were willing and
able to spend this afternoon talking to me.
SHAPIRA: This isn't going on TV, is it?
FERNHEIMER: N--no. (laughter) It'll be--it'll be in the library. Um, but it's
not going on national broadcast or anything.
SHAPIRA: Good.
FERNHEIMER: But I just want to close the interview and say thank you so much for
02:04:00making it possible to talk to you. I've learned a lot.
SHAPIRA: Well, and I hope--and is this going in a be--book or what?
FERNHEIMER: Yes. Uh, well--
SHAPIRA: Who's writing the book?
FERNHEIMER: Well, I'm going to--we'll stop the camera and I'll tell you more
about the project ha--
[End of interview.]
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