Interview with Richard Levy, September 20, 2016

CRANE: Okay. For official purposes, today is September 20th, 2016. My name is Janice Crane, and I'm part of the interviewing team for the Jewish Kentucky Oral History Project, funded by the Jewish Heritage Fund for Excellence. I'm honored and delighted to be here today with Dr. Richard Levy, presently of Cincinnati, Ohio. Dr. Levy is a medical doctor, a professor, a businessman, a writer, and, if my memory serves me well, a rock climber. Dr. Levy, who I'm going to refer to as Richard, is my second cousin. His grandmother was both my mother's first cousin and her aunt. I'm looking forward to hearing his stories, memories, and insight into growing up Jewish in rural Kentucky. So let's begin. Ready, Richard?

LEVY: I am.

CRANE: What was your full name at birth?

LEVY: I'm Richard Carl Levy.

CRANE: When and where were you born?

LEVY: I was born in Lexington, Kentucky, February 13, 1947.

CRANE: I know that both of your parents have passed away, but for the record and because they are part of your story, what were their full names, and when and where were they born?

LEVY: So my father was Samuel Meyer Levy, and he was born in Knoxville, Tennessee. My mother was Helen Lois, and she was born in Hamilton, Ohio.

CRANE: I also know that your paternal grandparents came from the same shtetl in Lithuania where so many other older Jewish Lexington families had their roots. What were their names and where were they from, and, if you know, when did they come to Kentucky?

LEVY: My grandfather, who was, uh, Jacob Levy--he went by Jake--and, um, I am not sure exactly when he entered the United States, but the family 00:02:00lore was that, uh, he was naturalized in Athens, Ohio. Why he got there is not clear, uh, but may have had something to do with his father, who, as I understand it, came before him. That would probably have been in the, uh, 1870s. Um. My grandmother, uh, Fega Glika (??) Levy, um, came to the United States, and I have some papers that I can be more certain about this, but I believe that she came to the United States in 1907. She landed in Baltimore and made her way to Knoxville, where she, uh, was married shortly after arriving to her, her uncle, Jake Levy. And that is why there is some confusion at different times 00:03:00in describing exactly who are my cousins and who are my sisters and brothers and so forth, and I don't think there are any six fingers on any of us, but that, that wasn't an unusual beginning.

CRANE: And, of course, you had a sister very dear to so many of us who passed away August of 2006. What was her name, and what was her age relative to yours?

LEVY: Uh. Her name was Charlotte Lois Levy, and, uh, she, uh, married, uh, and divorced, uh, but she went by the last name of Levy. And, uh, Charlotte was three and a half years older than me. She was a September baby, and I'm a February baby.

CRANE: Was Levy your family's name? Was it always Levy?

LEVY: It was in the United States, although my understanding is that 00:04:00my, my, uh, paternal grandmother's name in Lithuania, at least as close as it could be translated into English, was Ligum (??) or Ligama (??).

CRANE: Okay. I know you're married, and what is your wife's full name, and where is she from, and when did you get married?

LEVY: My wife's name is Beth Stacy Levy. Her maiden name was Barrett. She was, um, born in New York City, New York, uh, in 1949. Her birthday specifically is December 26, 1949. We were married on September 9th, 1973, and have been married in an uninterrupted fashion until today.

CRANE: And what are the names and ages of your children and your grandchildren?

LEVY: That's always--

CRANE: Or close enough.

LEVY: That's always easier for women of my generation to answer, but I'll try. So, uh, my son Damon Barrett Levy is the oldest, and he was born in March of 1978. My daughter Danielle, um, Barrett Levy was born, uh, in April of 1980, and my daughter Nicole, the youngest of the three--that's Nicole Barrett Levy, uh, was born in October of 1981. Uh. Damon, uh, has two children, um, and Danielle has one child, and Nicole has two children.

CRANE: Okay. I know that you're presently living in Cincinnati, but you once lived in Kentucky. Where in Kentucky did you live, and when did you live there?

LEVY: Well, you're referring to Irvine, Kentucky, although, uh, for four years of my, uh, youth I lived in Lexington, Kentucky. Uh, specifically I was born in Lexington, Kentucky, but my parents at that time were living in Irvine. And then when I was approximately six I moved with my parents and sister to Lexington, where I went, uh, to school from first grade to fourth grade. We then moved back to Irvine as a family, uh, where I remained, um, until I was seventeen, and at seventeen I went to the University of Kentucky where I, I spent 00:07:00four years getting my undergraduate degree.

CRANE: Where exactly is Irvine, Kentucky?

LEVY: Irvine is, is, uh, due east of Lexington. And when I was growing up it was, um, a matter of choosing whether you wanted to go through Winchester or whether you went through Richmond to get there, and it took about an hour and a half each way, uh, back then. Today, uh, because of the road that, that made travel so much more efficient, both, uh, the Lexington-Richmond road as well as the Richmond-Irvine road, I believe that it takes about fifty minutes each way.

CRANE: What brought your family to Kentucky?

LEVY: As I understand it, and this is family lore, so I never 00:08:00researched it to know for certain, but when it--when you go back to my grandparents' time period, they first, uh, moved to Lexington when they were, were young, and it's because an awful lot of their family, as well as other, uh, individuals that had ties to Pushelot, Lithuania, were living in Lexington. And so they moved there from a little town outside of Knoxville called Tellico Plains. And, uh. My, uh, my father, with, uh, the interruption of, of, uh, working for IBM in Cincinnati, Ohio, uh, always resided in Kentucky.

CRANE: What were the occupations of your parents?

LEVY: My father was a merchant. Uh, he ran a dry goods store, uh, in 00:09:00Irvine, Kentucky, and for a while in Lexington, Kentucky, and my mother, uh, uh, worked as a, a clerk in a, in the Irvine dry goods store.

CRANE: Where was the store in Irvine, Kentucky, and what was the name of it?

LEVY: The store was downtown, uh, and this was the store that I remember from my childhood. It was downtown, and that would have, um, been on Main Street. I don't remember the specific address, but, uh, if you look for it today, it's been knocked down, so it doesn't even exist as an address. Uh, they used it to broaden the street. Also, of note, I went back to Irvine a year and a half ago to show my oldest granddaughter, and Main Street, which at one time 00:10:00was a, a bustling, uh, small-town market center where everybody came in to shop on, on Saturday, uh, it had closed down, and what little commerce still existed were--had moved to, uh, a strip mall area. But the downtown looked like a ghost town.

CRANE: What was the name of the store, Richard?

LEVY: Oh, it was the Right Way Store, and the--there was another store, which my grandparents, uh, owned, although I think my, my father partially owned it, sold it to them, and then bought it back from them at different points in time. But it was down the street, also on Main Street, and it was called I--not the--it was--I have a record of it, if it's ever important. I can't remember 00:11:00the name of it right now. But it was like the, the, uh, Right, Right To Wear or something like that store.

CRANE: Can you describe the store, what it was like, what it looked like, what kinds of merchandise was, um, what you mean exactly by dry goods?

LEVY: Sure. Uh. It was men and women's ready-to-wear clothes. So when you walked into a store that probably was no more than, uh, three or four thousand square feet, uh, you saw areas where there were racks of, of dresses and pants, and then there was an area where you could buy shoes. I think there were four old-fashioned, wooden theater-style chairs that you sat on if you tried on some shoes. There were other areas that had men's pants. There were 00:12:00panties, and bras, and handkerchiefs, just a little of this, and a little of that, and of course it all had its seasonality, and, um, you know, the concept of, of a small, dry goods owner like that was to turn the merchandise as fast as they could.

CRANE: Do you know where he got the merchandise from?

LEVY: For the most part he got it from one of three places. He got it from wholesalers in Lexington, Louisville, or Cincinnati, and, uh, uh, he specifically, in Lexington, used to go to a wholesaler who, uh, maybe it was a place called Carhartt's. I'm not sure about that though. No, that was--

CRANE: --do you remember where it was located?

LEVY: --that's not accurate. It was owned by a Jewish man, uh, and it was not Carhartt either. Uh. But it was a...

CRANE: Was it Ades?

LEVY: It was Ades. Thank you very much. That's who it was. The places that he would go in Louisville and Cincinnati were to shows where, um, where, where reps would come to a hotel or to some sort of a space that they would jointly rent, and they would have samples of all their merchandise, which came from different places. And my father would go to those sales and put in orders, and then they would come in boxes, uh, to, to our store there in Irvine.

CRANE: Did you ever help out at the store, and if so what was that like?

LEVY: My sister, Charlotte, helped out a lot. She helped as a--a--a--a--a salesperson. I was bashful, especially when it came to helping women 00:14:00pick out clothing, and so it was pretty clear that that was never going to be my forte, so I helped with inventorying, and then I helped with putting clothes out. But, uh, I was pretty much a failure when it came to waiting on people. My mother, on the other hand, was like the championship salesperson of all times. And she was a great embarrassment as a, as a kid, because she would sell people things that they didn't want and didn't need, and she was so good at it that she did it over and over again. The other thing that would happen that was so embarrassing as a kid is that when my mother and father--(coughs)--would have something to say that they didn't want the customers to, to, to understand, they'd speak in, in Yiddish, and sometimes they were, uh, talking about the customers even. And I, I can tell you that as a kid who understood 00:15:00enough of the Yiddish at that time to know what they were saying, I was horrified every time they did that, and yet it didn't stop them for a minute.

CRANE: Do you think the customers ever realized what they were saying?

LEVY: I think they would just assume that they were talking some foreign gibberish, which they were. --(laughs)--

CRANE: You mentioned that there was a store, um, that your father had a store in Lexington at, at one point. Um. Do you remember anything about that?

LEVY: I, I do, although fortunately you and I have had a chance to talk about this before, and your memory of like the location, uh, was more specific than mine. And even at this point in time I can't tell you the address. Perhaps you could add that.

CRANE: It was--my memory of it was at Third and Deweese.

LEVY: It was on Third, so I'm, I'm sure of that, that part. It was in an area of town which sold to, uh, relatively poor people of, of Lexington. Uh. 00:16:00There were a lot of African Americans who came into that store, and it was a time that my father had both the store in Irvine and in Lexington, and he, uh, managed both of them at the same time.

CRANE: How would you describe your parents' relationship to Judaism?

LEVY: So I'll take my father first. Uh, uh. My, my dad, uh, was raised as a somewhat observant Jew. My parents to, uh, uh, if not the day they died, up until when they started, uh, needing assisted living, always kept kosher. Uh. They would go to synagogue, uh, for high holidays, but they would walk to synagogue. Uh, they, uh, they, they kept all--they observed all of 00:17:00the holidays, and, uh, they related to, uh, themselves as well as the American, uh, view of, of, of, of people and movement as, as belonging in terms of, of, of family and, and a sense of, of tribe. They, they were Jews probably before they were Americans, even though they were clearly, uh, supportive and happy with being in America. But they had--they identified very strongly as Jews. Now I'm using the plural at that point, because I should take my mother separately. My mother, uh, grew up in a home that at, at, at most, uh, uh, had a, a passing, um, interest in Judaism. Even though her mother and her father were 00:18:00both Jews, her father died when my mother was a year old, and it was a large family that my grandmother, her mother, uh, had to take care of, and feed, and so forth, and, and being Jewish was not--and being observant and going to synagogue a lot, and--that was just not part of that whole equation for them. So when my mother, uh, grew up as a young woman, and it was time for her to marry, uh, some family members in Cincinnati, uh, who were more Jewish and thought that it was important for her to be Jewish, introduced her to Jewish boys, and one of those Jewish boys was my father. And they, uh, uh, they, they met, and, and, uh, and dated, uh, in Cincinnati. That was during the time that my father worked for IBM. And, um, that's how my, my mother and my father became a couple.

CRANE: What was the role of Jewish tradition in the household when you were growing up?

LEVY: So it was a continuation of the last question. My mother, my mother adopted the practices of, of a quasi-Orthodox Judaism. Uh. Meaning that, uh, uh, they were observant, however, uh, my father, uh, didn't wear a yarmulke, uh, during the, the day, for example. Uh. He kept his store open on Saturdays, because as a, a, a, a businessman living where we lived, that's when most of the business occurred. But my mother adopted all of the, uh, the practices of, of more of an Orthodox home, so we kept, uh, kosher. We had four sets of 00:20:00dishes, milchigs, and fleishigs, and a separate two sets for, for Passover. We, uh, had all of our food either shipped in, or we went and got it from Cincinnati or, or, or Louisville, a little bit from Lexington, but primarily from Louisville or from Cincinnati, which was very difficult to do, and which probably indicates, uh, that they thought that Judaism was very important to their, their home. And I think in terms of identity, uh, they thought of themselves as Jews and belonging to, uh, the Lexington congregation, the congregation of a family sense. That's, that's where their identity came from, even though they did things in my local town of Irvine, um, I don't think they ever embraced it in the same way that they embraced their 00:21:00relationships and their identity that they had from, from Lexington, Kentucky, and Ohavay Zion Synagogue.

CRANE: How did they embrace the congregation, and what was their role, uh, with the Ohavay Zion Synagogue?

LEVY: So, to my knowledge, my father was a, a, a practitioner, paid dues to Ohavay Zion, prayed there when he could work it out with his business to be in, in shul. Uh, uh. Made absolutely certain, with tremendous effort, that my sister and I were, were, uh, uh, educated, uh, in Judaism, in various ways. Uh, my mother was supportive of all of that, uh, and never questioned 00:22:00whether or not that was the right thing or the wrong thing to do. Now in terms of their roles within the synagogue, uh, I don't believe that my father was ever an officer. Uh, I remember that he, uh, always, uh, paid more than his dues. He thought that he could, and my father did that, uh, in different ways. Uh, he was a, a, I think quietly a mensch, as, as, as the Yiddish term would apply. And I learned something, uh, from him. My mother was head of Hadassah one year, and she probably was head of the--and I think she was head of the, the temple sisterhood one year. My mother was, was a, a laughing, happy, uh, get-involved lady. She was a, a loose cannon, not, not, not in a bad way, but she 00:23:00was just kind of an all-the-place person, happy go lucky. And so, you know, being involved with the other ladies came very natural to her. That was--my father was a quiet man though, in comparison.

CRANE: When you were growing up your grandmother was still alive and very active in the, in the synagogue. What do you remember about her participation?

LEVY: My grandmother, uh, and like my mother, viewed her role as a Jewish woman of, of having a, a more restricted, uh, kind of role, but not, not one that they ever questioned within the context of the synagogue. Um, I can remember them with your mother in the kitchen, always making sure there was food out. Uh. They were the ones who were always supporting how the kids managed to go 00:24:00from A to B, and, and how the costumes were made. And, and I think their, their, uh, view--although your mother was, uh, uh more prayerful than, than mine, I do remember how, uh, uh, the high holi--high holidays, for example, uh, not all, but most of the men sat on the right, but certainly the ones who were more religious or, uh, frum, as we would have said back then. And, uh, many of the women, uh, sat on the left-hand side of the synagogue where there was--and quietly yapping the whole service in English. The men were davening in Hebrew, and the women were yapping in English. It was a different time, and that's the way it worked.

CRANE: --(laughs)-- And which side were you on, Richard?

LEVY: I was at my father's side, and I was doing all I could to keep up in Hebrew. It came quite naturally, it seems like, to, uh, some of the 00:25:00men, although I'm quite convinced that some of them, uh, even people that I can't even remember name, by name, but I'm not going to dishonor what they did, I'm not sure that they really even knew what they were doing. But they would sure--they would just go flat out for who could read the fastest and who could move forward and back the fastest in their davening. It was pretty funny actually when I think back on it.

CRANE: What else do you remember from the synagogue when it was on Maxwell Street?

LEVY: Oh, my God, uh, I remember it as this huge place, and that's the amazing thing, because as an adult it's not. It wasn't a huge place, it was small. And I remember, um, that the, the, the, the shul itself, which was, uh, uh, the place where you worshipped, uh, had aisles, three sets of aisles going 00:26:00across, uh, from east to west, and I said, and the men were on the--typically on the right-hand set of aisles, the women were on the left-hand set of aisles. And the people who were more modern or more secular, uh, sat in the middle, sometimes as couples even. And I can remember that. They're probably from front to back, even though it seemed like a huge place at the time, probably may have had, uh, twenty-five rows. That would be maximum, as I'm--if I'm being realistic. Maybe it was twenty rows. It just seemed so huge. And then there was the bimah in front, which was the raised area that, uh, those who, uh, were honored to sit there in addition to the rabbi, all men at the time, uh, would, would sit. Uh. Then there was the ark behind them, and the lectern 00:27:00or, or that, that the rabbi or whoever was, was reading from the Torah or the prayer book would go to. And I can remember, uh, in terms of--I--I--I--I often think in colors. It's a peculiar thing that I've always had, and, uh, I remember the, the, the, the synagogue as being a, like a royal purple, a deep purple, and, and what I'd found is that my memory usually connects two things, uh, that are sometimes remote, and I think it probably--if I had to guess--was the covering that was over the ark, although I don't remember that specifically, so I think of the entire place as, as having that, that coloration. In addition, you went through a doorway, uh, next to the bimah, and that would get 00:28:00you into, uh, the Sunday school area and the auditorium area, which is where I spent a lot of my, my, my youth. Uh. There was a downstairs area where there were classrooms. There was an outdoor area where I--one of my earliest memories is somebody who became a, a, a football player. I can remember Hebrew school when I was probably no more than, than ten or eleven, and there was a rabbi, and I can't remember if it was Pappenheim or Wagner, but, uh, I think it was Pappenheim who, uh, brought a football one time, and we went out into this, uh, area and, and then he taught, taught us how to throw a football. And I, I still remember that.

CRANE: Who were you in Hebrew school with?

LEVY: Oh, I almost wish that you would help me with this, because I don't want to, uh, exclude anybody, but Mark Rosenberg, uh, David Shraburg, uh, 00:29:00they were the people that I was always in Hebrew school with that I can remember. Uh, uh. David Rosenberg at times, although he would have been a year older, for some reason he was off and on in our class. Uh, Simone Bloomfield off and on was in our class, even though I think she was a year older. Um. Um.

CRANE: Did you have your bar mitzvah there?

LEVY: I can't remember some other names, even though I can see their, their faces so well. But it was--I don't think there were more than six or eight at any point in time, in my class.

CRANE: Did you have your bar mitzvah there?

LEVY: Yes.

CRANE: What was that--what do you remember about that?

LEVY: Um. Well, two, two remembrances. The one that's more specific and, and that comes to me first is that the, the snow storm of the season 00:30:00occurred, uh, when I had my bar mitzvah, and since we lived in Irvine, Kentucky, uh, there was great concern that we could even get to the synagogue, because that was before the roads were made it all so much easier. And, of course, at that time, uh, there weren't caterers involved. If there were, they weren't that, that for us, and so, you know, all of the women would pitch in, and then my mother was, was--we cooked for and baked for, for weeks. And I'm sure your mother was, was helping, and they would all bring all kinds of food, and so there was great concern as to whether or not this bar mitzvah was even going to occur. More generally what I remember though is I can remember almost a half a year or a year before my bar mitzvah, and, and having to spend so much time in front of an old Victrola learning to daven and learning how to sing, 00:31:00because I wasn't a natural singer, and I didn't have the kind of memory where it all made sense to me. So I actually had to learn it by, uh, you know, in a fairly difficult manner of listening to it over, and over, and over again. And it's not that I couldn't read. I could read nicely, and actually I could understand probably as well or better than most of the others, but, uh, but, but singing it and reciting it wasn't that easy. The last thing that I remember is, uh, I remember, uh, that, that I had a suit that they bought for me, and I was a fat kid, and, uh, that was a--it was not easy finding a, a suit in Lexington, Kentucky, for a fat kid, and I remember that was a big to-do.

CRANE: Um. How did your--your experience at the synagogue differ from that of your sisters back then?

LEVY: So the obvious answer to that, uh, is--is--is that, uh, my 00:32:00sister, who, uh, had a natural ear for languages and could--and--and, uh, for some things, a near photographic memory, uh, could, could easily, uh, put her head around any, any song, any, any language, including Hebrew, uh, and it just came absolutely natural to her. On the other hand, she wasn't allowed to be a bat mitzvah at that synagogue at that point in time. It just wasn't what observant Jews did. The women's role was to support the, the men of the congregation, and to have children, and to raise the children, but the--they weren't in a, in--to be part of the religious community. And so my sister learned all of it and knew it much better than probably any of us, 00:33:00because it was just easy for her, but she, she was told in more than a subtle fashion that it wasn't her role to be an active, religious part of the, of that community.

CRANE: What was it like growing up for you Jewish at that congregation?

LEVY: I don't know how to answer that. I had a, a, a different childhood than the kids from Lexington, um, because I grew up where we were the only Jews in an entire county, and so my experience at home and what went on in my home was probably the equivalent of a, a first, uh, or second generation, uh, kid growing up in America from another country. You hear a different, uh, language, you know you're--even though you go and play with everybody in, in the little secular community you're from, uh, you think of yourself as unique, because 00:34:00you've got this, this somewhat hidden life that, uh, you live an hour and a half away, uh, called your Jewish life. So when I would go to that Jewish life, uh, I also had to learn to speak, uh, in addition to my hillbilly Irvine accent, I had to learn to speak my, my twangy Lexington accent. And that was something that I, I caught onto pretty quickly. Uh, I also learned that the kids who were growing up in Lexington, uh, had a little more exposure than I did to a lot of things. On the other hand, uh, you know, climbing a tree or, or staying out overnight wasn't something that a kid from Lexington experienced that I experienced, and that was part of my life growing up. So, you know, I, I was very part 00:35:00of that community, but I was slightly an outsider in both communities.

CRANE: Do you remember the Kimball House?

LEVY: Yeah, of course.

CRANE: Tell me what you remember about the Kimball House and when you frequented that place.

LEVY: So, to keep in mind, my parents kept kosher.

CRANE: Okay.

LEVY: And so, uh, uh, I remember that, uh, it was considered a very nice place to eat at the time, and, and--oh, wait a sec.

CRANE: Not the Campbell House.

LEVY: No, no, no. I'm sorry. I, now I remember exactly. You're talking the high holidays at the Kimball House.

CRANE: Um-hm.

LEVY: So, oh, my goodness. The Kimball House was a, a runt of a hotel that was across and down the street from the pizza joint, uh, that us kids had to pass by when we were fasting that was really hard. And, uh, it was the place 00:36:00that my grandmother, my Tante Rosie, and a lot of other observant people stayed over the holidays, the high holidays, and, and it was so that they could walk to the synagogue. Now, I'll tell you that, that my, uh, father and I, along with some of the other neighborhood people, including the person I'm sitting across from, would walk to shul, even from our place over in Chevy Chase. But, uh, that's not what the older people did. I remember going into the Kimball House many times, because that's where my grandmother stayed, and it, it--the--I think of, of doilies, and lace, and the smell of, of, of, uh, of fungi. It, it, it clearly was moldy, and it was ancient. There was a little parking 00:37:00place, parking area, in the back. So, I don't know why you even brought this up, but that was a, that was a memory I'm having to move out on. When I told you that I see things sometimes in, in color, uh, I see that one in browns. Oh, it had a distinct brown to it, because it was, uh, probably there was probably a lot of wood in it or something, to that effect I guess.

CRANE: Well, this isn't my interview, but I have to tell you I have a, a, a memory of you and I in the back of the Kimball House with the monkeys.

LEVY: Oh, my, oh, my. Yes! --(laughs)--

CRANE: And, and you somehow getting me next to the cage and having that daddy monkey, George, reach out and ruin my new dress. --(laughs)--

LEVY: Oh, I'm so--can I apologize?

CRANE: Yes, you can.

LEVY: --(laughs)-- Oh, my God, I remember that. But I had totally forgotten about the, the monkeys.

CRANE: The monkeys.

LEVY: Yeah.

CRANE: We all went over there to hang out.

LEVY: Do you remember the pizza place?

CRANE: Um-hm.

LEVY: --(laughs)--

[Pause in recording.]

CRANE: Um. You mentioned--I know that you played football in high school. Um. Where did you go to high school?

LEVY: I went to, uh, Irvine High School, and the years were 1961 to 1964. Um, I, I left after three years, uh, uh, so I never graduated from high school. I don't know if you knew that or not.

CRANE: No, I didn't.

LEVY: Uh. So a combination of a couple of things. Uh, one is that, that, uh, I, I was a pretty good student, and, um, I think I, I intellectually 00:39:00somewhat out, outgrew the, the school, which wasn't that hard to do. And, uh, secondly, over times I had gotten into trouble, did a couple of pretty stupid things, and the principal, uh, uh, called my parents in during my--sometime towards the end of my junior year, after I'd been asked to leave school one day, and he said, "You know, I don't know if he belongs here." --(laughs)-- And, and so I, I went to summer school over at UK, uh, which was not the grand plan I don't think about where I was going to go to school, but, you know, it was totally cool with me, because I, I followed UK basketball my whole life, so I couldn't think of a, a cooler thing to do. So I went off to summer school, and my father knew somebody in the admissions office, and, uh, uh, you know, he said, "If you make a, a couple of A's this summer,"--actually three 00:40:00A's--he said, uh, "You can stay." So I worked real hard, and I made my three A's, and I just kept going.

CRANE: What was it like playing football, um, in high school and not--and, and having to address that with being Jewish? I'm assuming your games were on Friday night.

LEVY: Uh. As, as I said, my, my, my father, uh, and my mother, as his help, helpmate, were observant, uh, but they made exceptions as part of the overall American experience. And, uh, my sister was a cheerleader, and so she broke the, the, the barrier to those Friday nights where you still participated, uh, and Saturdays if there was a secular thing going on, you participated. I'll tell you where it, it, it, it, uh, actually, uh, created a little bit of a 00:41:00problem. Uh. I can remember, uh, that the high holidays, and I can't remember, Rosh Hashanah or Yom Kippur, um, occurring two of the four years that I played, and I actually played in eighth grade, too. But I can remember in two of those four years that I had to go to Lexington and miss a game. And, uh, one year I, I got a lot of really, uh, uh, bad ribbing, especially from the coach, who--his view of, of Judaism for some reason was that I was going to go drink wine and eat, eat smoked fish, and that was--and so he, he would, he would laugh about it, and everybody else would laugh about it, including myself. Another year where we were pretty good, and it was like, do you really have to go? 00:42:00I mean, you know, this, we need you. And the answer is yeah--(laughs)--I have to go, so I did.

CRANE: In an interview with your parents that was recorded in 1986--I listened to it--and your dad said that he chose moving to Irvine because it was a good town, and there was no anti-Semitism there. How would you describe growing up Jewish in Irvine, Kentucky? And did you experience any anti-Semitism?

LEVY: Um. So, the one question of what was it like growing up in Irvine is, uh, probably too broad to try to take a stab at. But on the anti-Semitism part, I think if you parsed what my father said, I wouldn't be at all surprised what you heard is that it was a good place, and there was no anti-Semitism. 00:43:00But my guess is he didn't know that before he went, because, uh, it, it was a place that didn't have anti-Semitism, he didn't experience anti-Semitism, but on the other hand it was a, a real Baptist, hard Baptist community, uh, where within some of the churches Jews were the Christ killer. And my father, on the other hand, I think lived a, a relatively virtuous life in Irvine, Kentucky, and he participated in the, the rotary, and he went to, um, the drugstore with his buddies every morning and had coffee. You know, he was, he was, he was one of the Irvine boys, so to speak. And I remember, uh, that, that some of 00:44:00the country people called our store the Right Way Store or the Jew store, and, and I've tried to explain this to other people who have grown up in a big city where anti-Semitism was easier to get your, your hands around, and everyone kind of knew the score. But I think most of those people didn't say the Jew store as an anti-Semitic remark. I think to them it was a way of describing the foreign-like people who, who owned it, and it could have been the Italian store, or the Polish store, or the Spanish store, but in this case it was the, the Jew store. And, and I can remember, uh, maybe a couple of times where anti-Semitic things were, were, uh, said that I heard. Uh. One time I saw it like in a--written in a bathroom stall. But, but I think my father's right, there was virtually no anti-Semitism in Irvine, Kentucky, that I personally experienced.

CRANE: How were you connected with the larger Jewish community in Lexington? I sort of know from the synagogue and I guess socially you were connected, you had family, but what about Louisville and Cincinnati? Growing up, uh, were you members of any youth groups, or did you socialize with anybody in Louisville or Cincinnati?

LEVY: Uh, there, there, uh, there--it was harder for us, my sister and I, to come from Irvine to go to Louisville and Cincinnati than it was if you lived in, in, uh, Lexington. We had relatives, uh, most of whom were in Cincinnati, but we had some relatives in Louisville as well, and we would go, uh, oh, approximately every, uh, two months to one or the other, and they were to see a relative, but more importantly to buy kosher products. And we would go to a Jewish 00:46:00butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker or whatever, uh, in order to pick up all this stuff, because other than that, it had to be shipped in to us. And so those were--so I had memories of going to both places. Then later--and I think what you're more referring to--I remember there was a youth group. And I think, for example, I can remember this was more an equivalent of my high school years when, uh, we would, uh, uh, have, uh, various activities where we saw other kids from--I remember specifically Louisville. I remember going to a summer camp, oh, I believe once, uh, here in Cincinnati, and, uh, ironically in a place that, that, that, uh, is not very far from here, even though, uh, at the time this area that I currently live in, uh, Jews didn't live here, but there 00:47:00was a camp, uh, that--where Jews went in the summer. It was called Camp Livingston, by the way.

CRANE: Oh. What did your family teach you about Judaism that impacted the choices you made in your life?

LEVY: So, uh, when you look at, at big picture stuff, and on a--but at the same time maybe superficial, it, it probably propelled me into, uh, a situation where I married a, a Jewish woman, uh, Beth Levy, and, you know, we've had a good marriage, and we've had three kids. So, you know, that's on a day-to-day basis. Um, I think though that it more profoundly impacted me, especially--and this is the connection with a, with a very rural town by, by the name of Irvine, Kentucky--I, I think I learned a deeper set of values, and I learned 00:48:00also through my Lexington friends and, and, and the congregants there, uh, no matter how they viewed their life, they were more sophisticated and more urbane than my existence, and so I, I knew that there was more there. Um. I, I, I, I, I valued, and, in a trivial, uh, expression, I, I became a man of the book, as a young person, and that probably was, you know, traditions that got started decades, maybe centuries before that, that were part of that Jewish tradition of, of learning in, in Lithuania. So I think that was profoundly impacted, some subtle ways, some not so subtle.

CRANE: In order to further document some of central Kentucky's Jewish history, can you explain any family relationships that your immediate family 00:49:00had with other members of the Jewish community?

LEVY: So, my parents' Jewish friends in Lexington, uh, were a relatively small set, but so was the congregation at that time. Uh. And, and many of them had some kind of family relationship, uh, I mean, your, your mother was a first cousin to my father as--

CRANE: Who were the other first cousins?

LEVY: So Adeline, uh, uh, and her brother, Norman, uh, would have been first cousins, uh, uh, to my father, so Rosie was their mother, who was a sister, a half-sister of my grandmother, so they--my father would have been 00:50:00first cousins to Adeline and Norman. Uh. Becky Silverman and her husband, who I can't think of, from Winchester, who were also members of the congregation when--Becky would have been my father's first cousin, as was her brother, both of whom had dry goods stores there in, in, in Winchester. Uh. There were others that, that, uh, actually there were others, but those, uh, those were the families we probably--those three were I think the families that I most felt connected to, even though there were other I think first cousins around my father, and that may have had something to do with, with who my grandmother had strongest connections to, and whether they were male or female, if I had to guess. Uh. Uh. Reuven Levy would have been a first cousin of my 00:51:00father, uh, I think about it. Um. But in a more general sense, there were--I don't know, it seemed like, for example, my mother probably had a dozen Jewish friends in Lexington in that time that we lived in Lexington. I can remember, uh, when she would invite people to play cards at the house, or when they had their--this coming, coming out of the Korean War when the women did bandage rolling. Do you remember that, by any chance?

CRANE: No.

LEVY: I remember your mother, by the way, at our house working on a card table rolling bandages. So this is something that, you know, when I think about the sterility of it as a, you know, as somebody who went through medical training, it's like, how could they have done that? But what, what they did is they had these large bags of gauze, like bags of gauze that needed to be 00:52:00rolled up, and they would come together at night, and this went, this went on. I mean, this was like frequent. And they would roll the gauze into what now a machine would put into like a, a little--

CRANE: --sealed package.

LEVY: --a, a, yeah, a little package of gauze, and they would, they would wrap it, and they would put it in some kind of packaging, and they would put it in a box, and they'd send it off to some military institution. And, and that's, that was their bandage rolling parties.

CRANE: What is your most vivid memory of Jewish life and ritual growing up?

LEVY: Inside the family home, it was Pesach, uh, and that went all the way from, from, uh, uh, symbolically, uh, getting rid of all of the chametz and, and, and, you know, burning, uh, a, a, a feather, and a piece of wood, and a 00:53:00napkin to symbolically get rid of everything that you missed, uh, to actually having the Seders there in Irvine, where you're doing this very peculiar, uh, uh, ritual, which has no context outside of your home in a community where there are no other Jews, and you're carrying on with these ancient Hebrew prayers, and you're singing and, and thinking about things that you know that no one else is doing. So that, that--and, and I remember so well what those, those services that we had were like. Outside of, of, uh, Passover, you know, I naturally I, I remember the high holidays in Lexington, and we would come there, and we would stay at 200 McDowell Road, an apartment building that my father 00:54:00owned, if you recall, where--you know, you know where McDowell is, but do you remember 200 McDowell, by any chance?

CRANE: Um-hm. Casa Dalia (??).

LEVY: Oh, my God! You are like so amazing. --(laughs)-- That's it. So we would stay there, and we would walk to, to shul, uh, at least my father and I would, uh, uh, and, and most of the time my sister would as well. And, uh, then we would daven, I, you know, I would do my pretend davening with the other men who were pretend davening. My father did real davening. --(laughs)-- And then we would, we would walk home, and, and if it was Rosh Hashanah we would have a wonderful meal waiting for us. If it was Yom Kippur, you know, we, the kids, would, would suffer through the whole thing in trying to get through the fast and, and the adults, of, of course, uh, being adults, would, would have less of a problem, and then there would be the, the, the big communal 00:55:00congregational break the fast afterwards, which, which I can remember so well. --(laughs)-- So that--those are some thoughts or some memories I have.

CRANE: Before we get into your college and adult life, is there anything else, uh, unique or that you would like to share about your family background or your childhood?

LEVY: Um. I think only that my sister was, was, uh, so unique, and I don't know if I emphasized that earlier. Uh, she, in a different era, may have been a rabbi, but it, it wasn't to be, uh, at that time, but she embraced Judaism more than I did, uh, and she liked the things about Judaism, and she--even 00:56:00though, uh, she was a wild and crazy kid in Irvine, Kentucky, and she was smarter than anybody, and, and I really do mean this. [telephone rings] She never--nevertheless, uh, Charlotte, uh, grew up, became a, a, an attorney and a linguist, uh, she knew many languages, and, and she, uh, was a law librarian, uh, had a couple of postgraduate degrees, so, I, I, she was, she was bright enough to have been a scholar and maybe a rabbinical scholar, but, it, it wasn't part of that era. And I think that, that, uh, Judaism may have lost something because of that.

CRANE: I would agree with that. I know that you attended the University of Kentucky. We already know how you got there.

LEVY: --(laughs)--

CRANE: --um, what years were you there again?

LEVY: Nineteen sixty-one to 196-, uh, I'm so-, yes, to '65.

CRANE: Sixty-one to '65?

LEVY: Oh, I've given you the wrong--that's when I was in high school, right?

CRANE: Yeah.

LEVY: So--oh, well, you're right.

CRANE: Sixty-six?

LEVY: Sixty-five to '69.

CRANE: Okay.

LEVY: I'm sorry.

CRANE: What did you study and--what did you study there?

LEVY: Uh, I studied chemistry, uh, and when I first matriculated, uh, I was, uh, enamored with, with, with math. I was enamored with, with, uh, philosophy, and, uh, I remember, you know, when I was an undifferentiated freshman and, and a young one at that, kind of having, uh, uh, started there in an atypical fashion, going over to a guidance counselor and they said, "You know, maybe you ought to be a city planner," which I had no concept of what that could 00:58:00possibly mean. And they said, "Maybe you ought to be a clergyman," and at that point in time I, that, that seemed to be a very strange thing as well. So I kind of said, "Okay, what's the, you know, what else could I do?" In, in, in Irvine, Kentucky, the, the, probably the most honorable thing you could do, uh, was to be a doctor, and we had two GPs in my town of Irvine, and, and they were, uh, about as special as, as you could be, even though they were almost, uh, uh, ghost-like in that they were never truly around and part of the community, because they were always working. But people spoke of them and thought of them reverentially, and so I thought, Well, I'll be a doctor. And the, one of the ways of doing that was to major in chemistry, which I never had a natural love for or anything, but I, I majored in chemistry as a, a, a way to go to medical school, to get into medical school.

CRANE: Tell us about your social life as a student. Which organizations were you involved in, including any affiliations with Jewish organizations such as a Jewish fraternity or Hillel?

LEVY: Uh. So I was involved in a, a, a lot of things as an undergraduate, as much anyway as, as, as you could back then if you wanted to get into medical school, cause medical school at that time was incredibly competitive. Uh, there were, uh, uh, approximately half the number of medical schools, and, and, and each of those had about two-thirds of the class size that they currently have, so your odds of getting into medical school were actually pretty low back then, and so you knew you had to make really good grades. So I studied. But I also had a pretty good time when I was there, and I did the usual, uh, dating 01:00:00a little bit, and, and going to parties, and, and hanging out, and, and, you know, the usual kinds of, of things that you did in, in college. Yeah, I did all that.

Um, specifically related to Jewish life, uh, there were two things that I can think of. One was, uh, uh, a Jewish fraternity called ZBT [Zeta Beta Tau], uh, I remember I think it was the, the first year I didn't, uh, pledge a, a fraternity, and I, and I, but I did figure out--it didn't take me long, even though it seemed like my Irvine background would most, uh, nearly have suited me for some fraternities. There was like Delta Tau Delta, and Sigma Chi or something, I remember those, and I remember, uh, a second year going 01:01:00around and--but it became apparent to me, uh, and this was one of the first times I realized there were some things that, you know, Jews may not apply, or do not apply, and that would have been true for, uh, a lot of the fraternities there, maybe most of them I think. And so, uh, if you will, and I'll say this without any, any hesitancy, I think by default I, I joined the ZBT. Uh, it wasn't because I had a tremendous affinity with the people there, because mostly the people there that I remember, uh, there were a few from the Kentucky area, or nearby, but, uh, uh, an awful lot of the people there were actually from the Northeast, that at that time weren't part of my cultural experience. So, um, and, and I learned, and we had a good time, and all of that, but I never felt truly close to people the way other people talk about fraternities. 01:02:00And I'm sure that that had something to do with me and, and maybe not, not the other people, but that was kind of what my experience was.

Now the other Jewish organization, and, uh, I can't remember, because we, we had a closer affiliation with the other temple in Lexington then. We didn't have an affiliation with the, the, uh, with Ohavay Zion. But, uh, uh, for two years, my, my sophomore year and my junior year, I was involved with, with that organization, and, and we had social functions.

CRANE: What were they like?

LEVY: They were more like almost book clubish. You know, we would talk about things of interest. It wasn't a, it wasn't a hardcore anything. It was more I think that a way for it was like a Hillel-like concept. It was a way 01:03:00for people from, uh, uh, a Jewish parentage to get together, and I think that was really its prime purpose, even though, uh, there were activities that were--that we were engaged in. And I was, I was president of that one year, as I look back. I think it was my junior year I was president of that organization, and we probably--I think there were maybe 50 or 100 kids that, that went to it.

CRANE: Was that Hillel?

LEVY: Um-hm, yeah.

CRANE: Did you all have, um, meals together?

LEVY: Yeah, um-hm.

CRANE: Where was the ZBT house located at the time, uh, that you were a member? Or if you don't know where it was located, what was it like?

LEVY: Well, I can, I can see it as though, you know, it's ten feet from me right now, and I know exactly how to get there, but I can't remember the 01:04:00street name. Do you recall, by any chance, the--from your other interviews?

CRANE: Um. Was it on Rose Lane?

LEVY: Yes.

CRANE: Okay.

LEVY: Yeah, Rose Lane. Thanks.

CRANE: And did you, uh--what were your living accommodations?

LEVY: So downstairs were the areas of communal living. Uh. There were a--there was a living room, and a rec room, and, and a dining room, and then the kitchen. Those were the downstairs area. And upstairs, the second floor, uh, were dorms, uh, and I lived, uh, uh, one year, for a semester, with four other roommates, and another year for a semester, and I think there were three of us.

CRANE: Do you recall who they were?

LEVY: There was Artie--or, I'm sorry, there was Rick Bigun (??), uh, 01:05:00there was--Simone's husband--Artie--

CRANE: --Salomon?

LEVY: --Salomon, and I can't remember the fourth. Uh. And then the other time it was Rick Biggin (??), who was from New Rochelle, New York. And, uh, there was a fellow who was a boarder, probably the only African American then that I truly got to know at UK, who was a boarder and lived in, in our room with us.

CRANE: Besides the obvious that ZBT accepted Jews, how did the fraternity demonstrate its Jewishness?

LEVY: It didn't that I recall.

CRANE: It didn't celebrate holidays or Shabbat or...

LEVY: Not that I recall. It was very secular, and once again I think the, the tone was set by, uh, uh, people from the Northeast who were--who, who 01:06:00came from secular backgrounds. And as a matter of fact, either--I think one of the years that I was most active with the ZBT, uh, the president was not Jewish, also from the Northeast. So it was a--it was for Jewish men, but it was, was not a, a, a place that, that had any observancy to Judaism.

CRANE: Hm. So it wasn't exclusively Jewish?

LEVY: No. Most were. Most were secular northeastern Jews.

CRANE: Were there any Jewish sororities on campus at the time?

LEVY: No.

CRANE: Do you know why there weren't?

LEVY: No, and at the time I wasn't smart enough or worldly enough to ask.

CRANE: --(laughs)-- Did ZBT have, um, a relationship with other, uh, 01:07:00fraternities on campus?

LEVY: We would have--we were part of the Greek system, uh, uh, but looked at in the context of the Greeks. We weren't, uh, uh, uh, very prestigious. We were probably a non-prestigious kind of fraternity, uh, and so, you know, we, we, we just--we were in the Greek system, but, you know, we, we, uh, were not a major participant in anything.

CRANE: How did the time that you spent at UK impact your Jewish identity?

LEVY: So I don't think it really, uh, impacted my Jewish identity. I think my Jewish identity was formed when I was, was younger, in my own home, 01:08:00and in the congregation at Ohavay Zion. Uh. I think that, that, uh, when I was in college, uh, you know, I can, I, I participated some at Ohavay Zion, but, uh, you know, I, I lived a pretty secular, non-Jewish life during that period of my, my life.

CRANE: Having grown up in Lexington in the Jewish community of sorts, how did, um--what was Jewish life like in Lexington as a college student? How did they compare, from your childhood to college, or did you see it all the same?

LEVY: Uh, no. I, I, as I said, I, I was very secular when I was at, at UK, and, uh, didn't, uh--it's almost as though I put my Jewish identity on hold, which was there, but, uh, you know, I didn't go to synagogue very often, uh, uh, I didn't, uh, say prayers very often. Uh. I would, I would go to 01:09:00Irvine for Passover, uh, you know, I would visit my grandmother, who still at the time, uh, lived on 200 McDowell, and speak the remnants of Yiddish that I could still remember as part of, you know, that kind of cultural Jewish experience. But when I was just engaging on a day-to-day basis, other than what I told you about being a member of ZBT, and, and Hillel, I didn't have a deeply religious college experience.

CRANE: Well, how would you describe the highlights of your UK experience?

LEVY: Uh, basketball. I'm, you know, the, the, the blue of Kentucky runs deep, and I listened to Cawood Ledford every game that I could growing up 01:10:00on that, that, that radio box of ours, and, and I, I went to games when I could. Uh. I, I can, you know, I remember homecoming, uh, for football, even though the football teams were always terrible back then, um.

CRANE: Nothing's changed.

LEVY: Nothing. You know not much changed on that one, you're right. You know, I, I think I had a pretty ordinary college experience. When I, when I, I compare it to what my, uh, uh, wife experienced, uh, I don't think it was--it had the, the depth or, or, or color that, that her experience had, for example. I think mine was a--you know, I, I studied, and, and at times studied real hard, and at other times I did all of the kinds of partying things that kids do in college, and, and, you know, had a good time. But there--I don't think there was tremendous depth, and there, there weren't a lot of extra projects, and, you 01:11:00know, and I didn't have this great world vision that I was thinking about, or that anybody was talking to me about. I think it was pretty ordinary.

CRANE: I know you're a physician, so where did you go to medical school, and what years were--was that?

LEVY: All right, so I, I went to medical school at the University of Louisville, uh, and where I had a, a, a--where I graduated four years later, so that would have been '6-, here I go, '69 to '73. Uh. The last, uh, year, uh, through a special arrangement, uh, uh, at the time it was, it was special, I don't know what it would be like today, but, uh, I went to Harvard for so--for a couple of years I was up in Boston, uh, so that I actually, uh, uh, got a, a, a 01:12:00MPH, although I spent an awful lot of my time over at the business school there. Once again, it was at the time pretty unconventional, so I got, uh, an advisor to let me just do pretty much whatever I wanted. And I, I did some, uh, medicine up there at Mass General to keep my finger in that, that pot, and then I, then I, I, having, uh, uh, learned, uh, that kind of what I wanted to do when I got out, uh, which was to, uh, try to make a significant impact in something called emergency medicine that didn't, didn't exist except maybe in a very rudimentary fashion at that time, and so I thought, well, this is, uh, uh, some, something I can do that will be impactful, uh, on a broader level.

And so Cincinnati, because of some bad reasons, was the first place 01:13:00in, first place in the country to ever say that they wanted to educate people in emergency medicine and for medical reasons. And the bad reason, to kind of cut to the chase, and this is the actual history, there were some terrible race riots in, uh, Cincinnati, uh, in the late, late, uh, uh, sixties. And the deal that the old General Hospital, which was the hospital attached to the university, made with, with, with, uh, members of the community who represented that, that particular community, was that they were going to clean up their emergency room. And as part of that, they were going to start training doctors. And so I was at the beginning of that whole thing, and because there wasn't anybody qualified around, and because, uh, in, in medical school and in public health school I started sort of recording a history of doing some 01:14:00scholarly things, and writing some things, and having that kind of predilection, and there wasn't anybody qualified, uh, they made me in charge, which is kind of one of these things that could, you know, only happen as a quirk of history. And so, uh, I had a chance to, uh, be involved with that, that program from its beginning as well as being a part of a lot of, of things that happened nationally, uh, uh, as part of the beginning of that whole emergency EMS thing that happened, that we now assume it's just part of the, the system.

CRANE: So when you were at U of L, did you, did you know then that you were going to go into emergency medicine?

LEVY: No. No. Uh. At that time I, I was probably thinking more conventionally, although I did have a couple of experiences, which is probably why I 01:15:00ended up at, at Harvard as kind of differentiating the same--well, maybe there's something else broader that I want. One of them was that, uh, uh, uh, a hospital administrator, uh, by the name of George Schmitt hired me to be a night administrator, and what that amounted to was that, that, uh, when all of the other administrative people went home way back then, and they all did it, you know, five or six o'clock they were all gone, that this, this kid from a medical school, if there were any administrative problems the nurses would call me up. And whether it was a bat running around, or somebody being an imposter, uh, playing doctor, or whether it was a, a, you know, a, a, a, a water break, I got a phone call, and I was there from like about six o'clock until eight in the morning, and I did that, and then I worked for him a couple of summers, and I thought, Hey, this whole system thing, I wonder how the system works 01:16:00with health care? I got really fascinated by that. The other thing is that, that in medical school this was in the period of time where, uh, you know, it was peace, with and I'm showing you the peace sign right now, and where it was anti-war, and I became involved in the anti-war movement. And, and so as one of our activities, uh, I, along with my roommate, a guy who subsequently, uh, uh, became a, a dean and chancellor at another medical school, but he had a, he had quite a, a career in academic medicine. But anyway, we, we co-founded a, a student-run health system, which, uh, uh, continued to exist up until about five years ago, and it was really a, kind of this--called GLOH, Greater Louisville Organization for Health.

CRANE: Will you explain a little bit more about that?

LEVY: So what we did is we got a, a, an organization started, and we 01:17:00incorporated it. We got some funding from a, a, some, uh, wealthy people, uh, uh. We hired an executive secretary, uh, but it was, it was student run, student governed. We had, we had some physicians who were, uh, what would now be considered socially left who were interested, and who helped us, and who, who would staff places as a, as a supervisory level physician. But it was, it was medical students who were, as of their, uh, junior year, who would actually provide primary care to poor people. And, uh, it was kind of an interesting model, and we wrote about it. And, and, uh--

CRANE: --and this was at the University of Louisville?

LEVY: --yeah, it was in Louisville, Kentucky. So that, that, that 01:18:00once again, that sort of made me a, a, a little more idealistic than maybe I was brought up to be. [phone rings] I don't know, the way I was brought up, but, yeah. Yeah, so it was somewhat interesting that this started in Louisville and, and took a, a nice life of its own, and I think we did a lot of, a lot of good, because at the time--this was before neighborhood health centers. This was, uh, uh, when it was first being talked--they were first being talked about, but it was before they were set up all over. It was when poor people's access to health care, uh, was basically to come to the hospitals when they were damn near dead and, and be taken care of, and then have to go back out and, and fend for themselves. Uh. This was--Medicaid existed, but barely. It was just getting rolled out, and so--and even if people had Medicaid, there was still enough social and, and racial bias that, that most doctors didn't want to 01:19:00participate. So there was a tremendous need at that time especially for primary care for poor people.

CRANE: What happened to it?

LEVY: I don't know what happened to it, but I continued interviewing students from--for, uh, uh, medical school and for training programs up until, uh, two or three years ago at the University of Cincinnati. And the ones from Louisville, uh, uh, up until about I think five years ago, every now and then somebody would come through to say they'd been--you know, where they'd had an experience with, with the Greater Louisville Organization for Health, and I'd kind of smile and, and move on, but, you know, I thought, My goodness, that's sure somehow or other survived a long time. But, uh, about five years ago, uh, uh, someone told me, uh, that, that it, it stopped functioning, and I don't know why. I 01:20:00mean, it's not something I ever followed other than just hearing about it, once I left.

CRANE: How did you choose, uh, University of Louisville for med school?

LEVY: Uh. There were two factors, uh, uh, that were, that, that put me there. Uh, one is that state tuition, uh, and, and recall that my father, uh, did well as a merchant, but he wasn't a wealthy man, uh, and I'm using my father because historically, you know, you've thought of the--I'm sorry about the gender bias on that, but, but, you know, it's like what did my father do for a living, and, and even though my mother contributed as much as he did. But anyway, my father wasn't a wealthy man, and so, uh, it seemed reasonable that I should go to a place that wasn't super expensive, because he was willing to pay for it. And, uh, and, and, and so then it kind of--so that piece threw me into 01:21:00Kentucky, University of Kentucky, University of Louisville. University of Kentucky was a pretty new school at that time, and whether or not this was justified or not I thought that University of Louisville was better at that time. Uh. So in state, that was what made sense. As far as going out of state, I did apply some other places and got in some other places, but they were a lot more expensive, and, uh, and so, at that time, I wasn't considering any, uh, academic career or thinking--and maybe I would, but if I were advising a kid today, uh, so I went to what I considered the, uh, a relatively inexpensive medical school, uh, in state that I thought might be the best of the two.

CRANE: From a Jew, Jewish perspective, how was going to school in 01:22:00Louisville different than, um, going to school in Lexington?

LEVY: Well--

CRANE: --or were you--did you maintain your secular Jewishness in Louisville, or?

LEVY: In Louisville the medical school, uh, was downtown, and the main campus was really far away, about three or four miles away. And so there was no real connection to the rest of the campus, and the medical school was isolated. And, and once again, medical school at that time, uh, was more competitive than it is now in the sense that, oh, you got to medical school, and, you know, the first lecture is, uh, you know, look, look at the two people on your right and look at the two people on your left, there's five of you, one of you is likely to not make it. And so there was a sense from the very beginning that with a, a bell-shaped curve that, that you had to work--you better work real 01:23:00hard. And so there wasn't a lot of fooling around in that sense, uh, and you knew you were there for business. At the same time, uh, I did, just because it's, that's been my history all along, I got totally caught up in some other stuff, but that's just my personality type. But I, but I did study a lot, and I worked real hard. Uh. As far as the Judaism, uh, is concerned, it, it really wasn't there. There was a, a Jewish-like fraternity, uh, at U of L, but, uh, and I joined it, and it was Phi something or another, but it was virtually, uh, indistinguishable from the two or three other medical fraternities that were there, except it seemed like more of the Jewish kids--and there were a lot there at that time, uh, in medical school--would have tended towards the 01:24:00one, but there was no Jewishness to it. I mean, once again, there was no observancy of any, anything. Uh. I did, uh, uh, as it turns out, and this was that cultural thing that was probably set as a time bomb in my head that was always--not a time bomb, but a ticking thing that always went on, so I, I, I, uh, I--my dearest friends were Jewish, and, uh, I would go to their homes at time, where there were some Judaism practice. Uh. They introduced me to some Jewish girls. So in that sense I remained with that identity of being Jewish, but I, I wasn't a practicing Jew to speak of at all at that period, that time frame.

CRANE: Tell me about the rest of your business ventures.

LEVY: --(laughs)-- Okay.

CRANE: In a nutshell.

LEVY: In, in a--okay. Well, the, the quick version, uh, is I, 01:25:00twenty-five years ago, when I was in Washington, DC, and I looked up a, a cousin from Winchester, Kentucky, who, uh, had gone to the University of Pennsylvania, uh, and she ended up being, uh, the head of one of the largest--her name was Marcia Silverman.

CRANE: Marcia Silverman, okay.

LEVY: Ended up being the head of, of one of our largest advertising agencies in the US. And, uh, so I said, "Marcia"--this was when we met up in Washington, DC, where she was living. So, "How did you end up doing what you're doing?" And she said, "Well, you know, I kind of just ended up being a, a high class shmata merchant." Her parents, like mine, owned a dry goods store, and a shmata store was a place where you, you know, you sell dry goods. And, and she 01:26:00said, "You know, I, I have to work with people, and I, I'm selling, and, but it's just, you know, it's just got fancified." And so when I think--and what I did in medicine I think I did some things that, that I don't want to overstate their importance, but I think probably were kind of like important, have important stuff. Uh. In, in, in commerce, you know, I just--I did it because I'm a shmata guy. You know, it's just no different from what my dad did and maybe just a little bit more. So when I was in, uh, medicine, and when I was around thirty-eight, forty, or something like that, I got involved with a software company, I got involved with a, a, a wire carrier when, when cellular was first being rolled out, uh, and that, that led me to a couple of exits by the time I was forty-five or so. Um, and so, and I still had my hands in other 01:27:00activities. I've done things as, as, as far distant as, as a, a company that made cabinetry for courthouses all over America to a, a, a, a water redistribution supply company that, that was in most of the states of the country, uh, to a, a billing company. But I've done, and I've done--I've owned a whole bunch of things, and in all of them it was just a matter of, of, of, uh, you know, very simplistic kind of stuff on my part of looking for things that had potential value, and putting some money in them, and trying to find some good people who would work on them, and, and then kibitzing. And that's kind of what I did. Uh, and then, but, but it, but what some of those early exits allowed me to do was to think in terms of what do I want to do the 01:28:00rest of my life, and, and I thought, Well, I kind of--for whatever reason I want to live an interesting life, and I've had a pretty interesting life by working, working my--like crazy, ever since I, you know, left, left undergraduate. And, you know, maybe I don't need to do that the rest of my life. And so, uh, I gave myself time to do whatever I wanted to do, and I'm still able to keep my hands in to the shmata business commerce stuff, to, uh, to keep doing those kinds of things. So, I mean, I can be more specific, but I don't think that that's what this is about, is it?

CRANE: Not necessarily. What, um, as a professor, tell me what you did as, as a professor at UC?

LEVY: So, uh, I, I spent time with, um, teaching, which means medical 01:29:00students and residents. Uh. We started a--we had a residency program, started a residency in emergency medicine, so people who were studying for the discipline or training for the discipline went into that. Uh, we had huge numbers of medical students who rotated with us and who studied emergency medicine. Uh. I did various kinds of, of research, uh, some of which was, you know, uh, uh, animal related, some of which was, was, uh, uh, uh, uh, drug related, on testing drugs on, on humans. Uh. So I did a lot of those things. Uh. And then also I, I ran, administratively, um, I ran a, a program. I was in charge of a couple of emergency, uh, departments and had, had faculty and had, had nurses 01:30:00and had administrative people, and, you know, we ran, ran the toxicology service, a hyperbaric service, a, a helicopter service, an EMS service, so we ended up, you know, a lot of pieces to the, the whole thing. So that's what I did as a professor within--and then I practiced. I saw patients as well.

CRANE: In the emergency room?

LEVY: In the emergency room primarily, although I did also see patients on the floor occasionally for different things, toxicology and hyperbaric. Uh. So that's what I, I did professionally. I wrote a fair amount of, of technical things related to emergency medicine. And, you know, and, and I was involved, uh, because emergency medicine was, was nascent and was being, uh, formed. I got involved with a lot of the early things that you do when a new 01:31:00specialty is being created, and those were exciting times. I mean, I value the experiences I had. I was one--I was lucky to be involved in all that.

CRANE: Okay, so somewhere in all of that you and Beth have raised some children. Um. So what was Judaism like in your home, and how was it different from that as your parents?

LEVY: Yes, so I lived in Cincinnati, Ohio. My, my wife, Beth, uh, came from a non-observant family. Uh, her brother was bar mitzvahed. She was not bat mitzvahed. Uh, she had a general understanding of Judaism, but, but not the kind of Judaism that I grew up with. But we met in school, and, and, uh, you know, the magic that happens propelled us into a marriage, and, even though at the time I thought she had greater career prospects than I did, uh, there 01:32:00was the gender issue, especially at the time, and we started having children, and she became the main family support for our family. Uh. And, and so, you know, she--there was a, a professional price for her to pay to let me do what I was doing, uh, and she ended up doing our family part. And she did it so well that, you know, we've managed to stay married all of these years, and, and our, our kids all talk to us, and, and, and, uh, even though they live in different places we're, we're very close to them. That, that's on her. She was good. She, she was a good mom. But as far as Judaism is concerned, uh, so we became members of the, a Jewish temple here, so it was Reform compared to the, the--I always called it, a, a low Orthodox or high Conservative that you and I were 01:33:00members of at Ohavay Zion. So this was, this was a, a more Reform congregation. It was a very large one. It's called Wise Temple here in, in Cincinnati. Uh. We had, we had, uh, our Jewish friends, and a lot of them are still friends to this day. Uh. We would, we--Beth, in, in a fashion, like my mother, uh, perhaps to accommodate me, uh, uh, always put on the Jewish affairs in the home, and we would light candles for Shabbos, and we would, uh, we would, would, uh celebrate all of the holidays. Uh, our kids were all raised, uh, as practicing Jews. Uh. They, uh, they grew up in a Jewish home. We didn't keep kosher, we didn't do all the things my parents did, in that fashion, but, but we, we, we, 01:34:00uh, were Jews. And, and, you know, as we've entered this, this, uh, later phase of life, uh, we're less Jewish than we were when we were in our earlier adult lives and middle adult lives, but, uh, we still think of ourselves as Jews.

CRANE: To the best of your ability, how do your children feel about their Jewishness?

LEVY: I think it's more complicated for them. Uh. All three of them are married to non-Jews.

CRANE: Okay.

LEVY: Uh. Two of them are raising their children to be Jews. Uh. One of them, uh, uh, although, uh, uh, she would say to anyone who asked or if she had to write it down would say that she's Jewish, however, uh, she doesn't practice Judaism in any fashion. As of yet, none of them in a formal sense 01:35:00belongs to a, a, a, a congregation, uh, although the oldest, uh, uh, uh, sends both of--they send both of their kids to a Jewish school, an afternoon school, after school, for, and have for--you know, since they were little, uh, and they, they have a, a, uh, they've always had a Jewish nanny--or not a Jewish--oh, yes, a Jewish nanny from Israel around, uh, to teach them Hebrew. So, uh, and my daughter, my middle child who was also, uh, uh, uh, states she's going to raise her children Jewish, and I think has an identity, but nevertheless her husband, uh, uh, is going to do his own thing. So she has brought some areas of Judaism into her marriage, but it's a mixed bag, and that's, that's, that's true for, uh, all of them, so more complicated than, than for my parents 01:36:00or for me.

CRANE: How would you explain how your Jewishness, um, and your practices have changed over time? I mean, clearly they have, but what do you feel like is the reason behind that?

LEVY: So I was born a Jew, uh, I was married as a Jew, and I'll die as a Jew. Uh. How much more fundamental you can get, I don't know. But, I mean, those are this, kind of the, the facts of the matter. At different points in my life I've, I've, I've moved in and out of, of more of the traditions and practices of Judaism, and at this point in my life, uh, I am not doing a lot of 01:37:00Jewish things. Uh. I still hang around with some Jewish friends, and if they're disproportionate to the population at, at large, so there's still that connection. Uh. Uh. When convenient I'll still celebrate some of the Jewish holidays, uh, but my highest priority is my, my family and being with my family, and since they're all over the place, uh, making that work is of the highest priority to me. So sometimes that interferes with what would be a practicing person. The other is that our lives have just taken us in a direction where they're--we don't have that many people who are, are truly involved in Judaism at this point in our lives, and so we're not part of that. I--who knows what it will be like in five years? It could change again.

CRANE: Looking back, what, if anything, would you change about your 01:38:00relationship with Judaism?

LEVY: I think I was really lucky to be raised as a Jew to learn the value system, which I haven't really mentioned up to this point. Uh. You know, I think that most forms of, of, of religion, whether it's, you know, animistic or whether it's, it's highly rigid and structured like some of the, um, more modern religions are, I think that, that most of them communicate a value system, you know, how, how you should treat one another, how you should treat the environment, how you should, should, should treat yourself. It's very much a way to live. And I think I, I learned from a, a value set or from an ethical set, a pretty good set of, of principles that, that have, have guided me. I, 01:39:00I, I, uh, you know, I, I, I don't know if I believe in a maker, but if I ever am to meet a maker, I'm not going to be, uh, embarrassed. You know, I think I, I've been a reasonable human being, and I think it may have been that Judaism that, that gave me the framework to be that way, you know, that it's not just me, it's my parents and, and maybe that framework of Judaism.

CRANE: That sounds like a nice place to, to stop. Is there anything else before we end this, Richard--this has been wonderful--that you would like to share or say that we haven't already talked about?

LEVY: You know, I've, I've, uh, I have minor regrets and major regrets, but, you know, a minor regret was that I didn't maintain contact with that, that, uh, that, that childhood experience in Lexington, and that was, you know, 01:40:00that was bad on me. Life was busy, and so I didn't. But, uh, that was a pretty important part of my life in terms of setting me and creating me, and I should have done more.

CRANE: There's always tomorrow.

LEVY: There's always tomorrow. But, it's late now, in, in that sense that it's hard. But anyway, it's, uh, uh, I, I, I, you know, I can't tell you that, that, uh, uh, that Judaism has been the only thing in my life that has been of importance to me, but it has been important to me. And, and, and if, if my kids or grandkids or great grandkids that don't exist yet ever hear this, uh, I hope that, that, uh, they will seek out some spirituality and that it 01:41:00becomes part of their family life and becomes part of their core, enough that it will create some value to them. And, and, I think that, that is probably a good way to end this.

CRANE: I agree. Richard, it's been great.

[End of interview.]