Interview with Bert R. Francis and Arlayne Francis, March 29, 2018

Partial Transcript: Alright, the following is an unrehearsed interview with Lieutenant Colonel Bert Francis and his wife Arlayne Francis for the University of Kentucky's Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about some of his experiences working as a recruiter on college campuses in Cincinnati and other parts of Ohio after his first tour in Vietnam, and relates some of his encounters with anti-war groups. He discusses how he thought the media coverage of the war was very poor and offers his view of the anti-war protests that were occurring at that time.

Keywords: Anti-war demonstrations; Attitudes; College campuses; Media coverage; Military recruiting; Ohio; Problems; Recruitment; Resistance; Sensationalism; Soldiers; Students; Students for Democratic Societies

Subjects: United States. Marine Corps; Universities and colleges.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements--United States; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Public opinion; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Well the Vietnam War was only one of the divisive issues that roiled the country from the mid to late 1960s.

Segment Synopsis: Francis and his wife Arlayne both talk about the divisive issues and social activism that occurred in the U.S. in the mid to late 1960s. They discuss some of the possible origins of this activism, such as radical but incompetent professors, and relate a story from when they were in high school.

Keywords: Attitudes; College campuses; Divisive issues; High schools; Media coverage; Middle class; Radical professors; Sensationalism; Social activism

Subjects: Race relations.; United States. Marine Corps; Universities and colleges.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements--United States; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: But I remember during that time period of--when all these race riots were going on and cities were being burned down, and, um, anti-war protests, I remember being scared as a kid because I thought--um, I wasn't sure if the country would survive that period.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about his concerns regarding the crises facing the United States in the mid to late 1960s, especially the troubles at universities. He discusses the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Jr. and Robert Kennedy. Francis relates his disappointment with the state of affairs in the country and his belief that the primary problem was ignorance. Francis also talks about his experiences working as a Marine officer recruiter on college campuses around Cincinnati, the support of the local community, and the successes of his efforts.

Keywords: Cincinnati; College campuses; Communications; Community support; Concerns; Crises; Defusing situations; Ignorance; Martin Luther King, Jr.; Military recruiting; News media; Quotas; Race riots; Recruitment; Robert Kennedy; Social activism; Students; United States.; Violence

Subjects: Protest movements.; Race relations.; United States. Marine Corps; Universities and colleges.

Partial Transcript: Well during the three year interval between your two tours in Vietnam, were you keenly interested in what was still occurring over there?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about his continued interest in the events that were occurring in Vietnam during the three year interval between his first and second tours. He explains that he received most of his information on Vietnam through the news media when he was stationed in Cincinnati, but while in graduate school at American University in Washington, D.C., he learned about the war through daily briefings at the Marine Corps headquarters. Francis also talks about the dates that he completed graduate school and then began his second tour in 1970.

Keywords: American University; Cincinnati (Ohio); Daily briefings; Graduate schools; News media; Newspapers.; Regular commission; Soldiers; Washington, D.C.

Subjects: United States. Marine Corps; Veterans.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Mass media and the war; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Well let me ask you this, so you're in Cincinnati in '68, were you taken by surprise like everyone else seemed to be by the Tet Offensive at the end of January of 1968?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about his surprise regarding the Tet Offensive of 1968. He and his wife Arlayne discuss his experiences and the difficulties that he faced in making calls to the families of Vietnam casualties around that time. The couple also talks about some of their closest friends in the Marines over the years.

Keywords: Casualty calls; Children; Difficulties; Friends; Military families; Officers; Soldiers; Support; Surprises; Tet Offensive

Subjects: Family life.; Military life.; Military spouses; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: We were talking about Tet, you mentioned--

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about his thoughts on the Tet Offensive of 1968 and how it caused him to question General William Westmoreland's and other military commanders' public statements on the Vietnam War. He discusses the different outlooks of superior officers from his perspective during his first and second tours.

Keywords: Attitudes; Concerns; Generals; Leadership; Public statements; Soldiers; Strategy; Superior officers; Tactics; Tet Offensive; Vietcong; William Westmoreland

Subjects: Officer; United States. Army.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Well shortly after Tet, the My Lai Massacre, which you alluded to earlier today, occurred by elements of the U.S.Army's 20th Infantry Regiment, which was attached to the 23rd, uh, Infantry Division, which was known as the Americal Division, that was operating in the Quảng Ngãi Province, which was in the first core area of operations.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about the My Lai Massacre and how he can understand what happened, but refuses to condone it. He discusses how the massacre was the result of problems with discipline and training. Francis talks about the news media's portrayal of the massacre and its negative effects on public opinion in both the United States and Vietnam. He also discusses how he does not think that the massacre would have happened with Marine Corps forces and that they would have handled the situation differently.

Keywords: Attitudes; Civilians in war; Discipline; Infantry; Leadership; Massacres; My Lai Massacre; Officers; Punishments; Responsibility; Soldiers; Support; Training; William Calley

Subjects: United States. Army.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Atrocities.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Destruction and pillage.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Press coverage.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Public opinion; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Well partly as a result of the Tet Offensive, on March 31st of 1968, President Lyndon Johnson announced to the country that he would not run for re-election. Do you recall watching that announcement on national television?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about President Lyndon Johnson's announcement in 1968 that he would not run for re-election. He discusses his concerns about the future because the United States leader was quitting and relates a mostly positive assessment of Johnson. Francis also talks about his negative view of Richard Nixon and his belief that the United States should have withdrawn from Vietnam, where they should never have intervened in the first place.

Keywords: Advisors; Attitudes; Concerns; Elections; Lyndon Johnson; Micromanagement; Respect; Responsibility; Richard Nixon; Strategy; Trust; U.S. presidency; Vietnam

Subjects: Leadership.; Politics and war.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Well, when did you find out you were going back to Vietnam?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about returning to Vietnam for his second tour in 1970. He discusses the various flights to reach Vietnam alongside many of his comrades and his initial experiences upon arrival in the country. Francis talks about different unit movements that were occurring at the time of his arrival and the artillery and troops that were assigned to him. He discusses how he was not happy to be back in Vietnam and the difficulties of saying good-bye to Arlayne and his children.

Keywords: Artillery; Attitudes; Comrades; Difficulties; Experience; Military bases; Officers; Orders; Soldiers; Travel; Unit movements; Veterans; Weapons; Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)

Subjects: Family life.; Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: When did you find out Bert was going back to Vietnam?

Segment Synopsis: Bert Francis' wife Arlayne talks about her experiences and outlook as a military spouse during her husband's second tour in Vietnam. She explains that she was more concerned about Bert's second tour because she had learned more about the war from the news media. Arlayne talks about how she stayed busy working as a community and church choir director and teaching at a local school in Dale City, Virginia. She discusses how overall, Bert's second tour was better for her than his first tour because Dale City was a military community that provided her with a lot of help and support.

Keywords: Adjustment; Busy; Choirs; Churches; Concerns; Dale City (Va.); Friends; Military community; News media; Relationships; Sons; Stress; Students; Support; Teaching

Subjects: Family life.; Marine Corps spouses; Marriage; Military life.; Military spouses; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: One time--the one hundred and thirty packages I asked you to send.

Segment Synopsis: Bert Francis' wife Arlayne talks about sending packages to her husband in Vietnam and explains that she knew little information about the military situation for the Marine Corps during Bert's second tour. She discusses how she luckily did not personally know anyone who lost a spouse in Vietnam and talks about the continuous support that the military community of Dale City, Virginia gave to each other.

Keywords: Artillery; Casualties; Choirs; Churches; Concerns; Dale City (Va.); Friends; Military community; Military situations; Packages; Relationships; Soldiers; Support; Wounded

Subjects: Family life.; Marine Corps spouses; Marriage; Military life.; Military spouses; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: You know one thing, uh, I didn't mention, now that I know, um--before you went over, uh, for your second tour, Kent State happened.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about how he was upset and shocked by the shootings at Kent State University before his second tour. He discusses how the tactical situation for the Marine Corps in Vietnam had changed since his first tour and the ways that the Marines were operating more like a garrison army than one in a war zone. Francis also talks about the Marines' reduced role by the time of his second tour and how they were stretched very thin in fulfilling their duties.

Keywords: Artillery; Changes; Demobilization; Duties; Kent State University; Leadership.; Military bases; National Guard; Officers; Provinces; Soldiers; Veterans; Weapons; Withdrawal; Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)

Subjects: Kent State Shootings, Kent, Ohio, 1970; Military life.; United States. Army.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements--United States; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: I was wondering if this might have been part of President Nixon's Vietnamiz--Vietnamization program, with the Marines beginning to be phased out of the war in early 1970 because of that.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about not knowing why the Marines were being phased out of the war in Vietnam. He discusses giving artillery pieces to the Vietnamese military and assessing their abilities. Francis explains that the Marines were not demoralized by the Army being assigned to defend provinces that were formerly their responsibility because it allowed the Marines to be in less danger. He also talks about how he acquired any equipment for his men that he could from the troops who were withdrawing from Vietnam.

Keywords: Artillery; Demobilization; Duties; Equipment; Leadership.; Military bases; Morale; Officers; Provinces; Soldiers; Veterans; Vietnamese military; Weapons; Withdrawal

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Army.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.