Interview with Bert R. Francis, April 4, 2018

Partial Transcript: Alright, the following is an unrehearsed interview with Lieutenant Colonel Bert Francis and his wonderful wife Arlayne Francis for the University of Kentucky Libraries Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about how he was assigned to command Lima Battery in the 11th Marine Regiment for his second tour in Vietnam. He discusses the different division and battalion commanders that he served with and relates a story about his gunnery sergeant. Francis also talks about the artillery pieces given to his unit, giving some guns to the South Vietnamese army, and acquiring mattresses for his troops from the Marines who were withdrawing from Vietnam.

Keywords: 11th Marine Regiment; 1st Marine Division; Army of the Republic of Vietnam; Artillery; Battalion commanders; Difficulties; Gunnery sergeants; Lima Battery; Military bases; Military supplies; Officers; Orders; Soldiers; Travel; Unit movements; Veterans; Weapons; Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: What was the northern artillery cantonment? Where was it located?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about the northern artillery cantonment, a strategic location where his artillery unit was stationed. He discusses the attitude and low morale of his fellow officers, many of whom were no longer concerned about the war because they were standing down and returning home. Francis talks about the loose measures that were present in the division as a whole and the ways that he boosted morale in his unit while preparing for monsoon season.

Keywords: 11th Marine Regiment; 155 mm howitzers; 1st Marine Division; Artillery; Attitude; Difficulties; Lima Battery; Loose measures; Military bases; Military supplies; Monsoons; Northern artillery cantonment; Officers; Orders; Soldiers; Veterans; Weapons; Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)

Subjects: Military life.; Morale.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Were there any large-scale attacks by Charlie in Quảng Nam Province while you were there on your second tour?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about how he was taking a shower during a large scale attack by the enemy on the Marine base near Da Nang shortly after he arrived in Vietnam for his second tour. He also reviews various operational positions in the Quảng Nam Province that his artillery unit occupied for fire missions and discusses some of his experiences.

Keywords: Arizona territory; Artillery; Difficulties; Fire bases; Fire missions; Hill 55; Hill 65; Lima Battery; Military bases; Officers; Orders; People's Army of Vietnam; Quảng Nam Province; Soldiers; Viet Cong; Weapons; Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Does Hill 34 sound familiar to you?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about some of the other positions in Quảng Nam Province that served as fire bases for the Marines. He discusses some of the different types of weapons that were used and his experiences overseeing the evacuation of various positions as the Marines were preparing to withdraw from Vietnam. Francis also talks about personally getting rid of leftover Agent Orange at one of the bases.

Keywords: Agent Orange; Artillery; Difficulties; Fire bases; Fire missions; Infantry; Lima Battery; Mortars; Officers; Orders; Quảng Nam Province; Soldiers; Vietnamese; Weapons; Withdrawal; Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: I saw many references in the command chronology to the enermy--enemy's quote unquote surprise firing devices? What were those, do you remember?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about the enemy's effective use of lob bombs, which were considered surprise firing devices. He discusses how he did not know anyone in Lima battery when he first assumed command, but later on several of the lieutenants whom he commissioned served with him. Francis also offers an assessment of General Charles Widdecke and the reasons that the 1st Marine Division had a spit and polish appearance attitude during his second tour.

Keywords: 1st Marine Division; Artillery; Charles Widdecke; Difficulties; Fire missions; Infantry; Lima Battery; Lob bombs; Officers; Orders; Soldiers; Spit and polish; Viet Cong; Weapons; Đà Nẵng (Vietnam)

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: In the official Marine Corps history of the Vietnam War, I was somewhat surprised to read this, quote, the strains on the armed services of a lengthy, inconclusive war, and the social and racial conflicts tormenting American society, adversely affected Marine discipline and cohesion, posing complex, intractable problems of leadership and command, unquote.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about how the discipline and cohesion of his artillery unit was not a problem and neither was drug use, but he knew that it was an issue for some other units. He discusses ways that he sought to maintain discipline and morale among his men, such as integrating white and black soldiers and keeping the troops busy. Francis talks about some of the daily dangers that his unit faced, such as mines and booby traps, and how they counteracted these threats. He also discusses how his unit suffered no casualties during his second tour and relates only minimal insubordination from one soldier.

Keywords: Artillery; Booby traps; Busy; Casualties; Cohesion; Difficulties; Drug use; Infantry; Insubordination; Integration; Lima Battery; Mines; Morale; Officers; Orders; Patrols; Perimeters; Responsibility; Soldiers

Subjects: Discipline; Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: --(coughs)--As we, as we mention, you know, between April and July of 1970, while y, uh, you weren't in country yet, the Marine Corps was already in the initial stages of leaving Vietnam.

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about knowing about the U.S. Army's secret incursions into Cambodia before President Richard Nixon officially authorized it. He discuses how he agreed with the president on expanding the war into Cambodia and that generally the Marines were relieved it was not them involved in the fighting. Francis also talks about how being incredibly busy with various tasks, such as visiting and supplying fire bases, in the months before the Marines withdrew from Vietnam did not allow his spirits to lag.

Keywords: Artillery; Attitudes; Busy; Difficulties; Expansion; Fire Bases; Ho Chi Minh Trail; Infantry; Lima Battery; Morale; Officers; Responsibility; Richard Nixon; Soldiers; Withdrawal

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Army.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Cambodia.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Equipment and supplies.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: At that time--(coughs)--like the second half of your second tour, did you think the war was still winnable? Or had you changed your mind by the time you left at the end of May of 1971?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about how by the time he left Vietnam at the end of his second tour in May 1970, he thought the war would end with a truce. He discusses his views on the enemy's actions as the Marines were withdrawing from the country, the danger posed by the Viet Cong, and his assessment of the war of attrition. Francis also talks about how it was necessary to dehumanize the enemy.

Keywords: Artillery; Attitudes; Concerns; Dehumanize; Difficulties; Fire Bases; Helicopters; Infantry; Officers; Responsibility; Rice farming; Soldiers; Truce; Viet Cong; War of attrition

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: By the time you arrived in country in 1970, the U.S. had been fighting there in large numbers for five years. Could you sense that the South Vietnamese people were war weary?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about how the South Vietnamese people viewed the Marines during his second tour and explains that the overall situation seemed more friendly and relaxed than his first tour, with many civilians working on the military compounds. He discusses his unit's experiences enduring a typhoon that occurred, and the type of fire missions that his battery completed. Francis also tells a couple stories of memorable events from his tours of duty in Vietnam.

Keywords: Artillery; Attitudes; Cobra; Concerns; Difficulties; Fire missions; Harassing and interdiction fire; Infantry; Military compounds; Northern artillery cantonment; Officers; Responsibility; Soldiers; South Vietnamese; Typhoons; Unobserved; War weariness

Subjects: Civilians in war.; Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Did you have any close calls other than, um, the time you almost stepped on the mine in your second tour?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about close calls that he experienced during his second tour and his feelings of survivor's guilt. He discusses the frustrations about the Marines returning home with the war in Vietnam unresolved and the constant fortifying of positions that was necessary by his troops. Francis also explains that he did not expect the complete fall of South Vietnam because he thought the war would end with a truce, but he was not surprised that the Army of the Republic of Vietnam collapsed or that the South Vietnamese government proved ineffective.

Keywords: Army of the Republic of Vietnam; Artillery; Attitudes; Collapse; Concerns; Difficulties; Fortifications; Frustration; Infantry; North Vietnam; Officers; Responsibility; Soldiers; South Vietnam; Trip wires

Subjects: Military life.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Campaigns; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: When you left Da Nang, do you recall what your thoughts were?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about his happiness upon leaving Vietnam and returning home to the U.S. He relates his enjoyment of the flights home and finally reuniting with Arlayne in Washington, D.C. Francis discusses how it took no time to reconnect with his two sons and how his first assignment after his second tour was at a Marine base in Norfolk, Virginia. He talks about working as a financial analyst in a planning and control operational force for the Marines and discusses some of his fellow officers.

Keywords: Artillery; Children; Financial analysts; Flights; Friends; Military bases; Norfolk (Va.); Officers; Relationships; Soldiers; Travel; Veterans

Subjects: Family life.; Marriage; Military life; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.

Partial Transcript: Well, last question for today. When you saw the video on the 6 o'clock news of those people trying to hang on of that skid of the last helicopter that left the U.S. embassy as the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops were approaching in Saigon, what were your thoughts?

Segment Synopsis: Francis talks about feeling sick as he watched the video of the last helicopter leaving the U.S. embassy in Saigon as the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong troops approached because of the waste of lives in the war. He provides an overall assessment of the U.S.'s involvement in Vietnam and discusses his views on visiting the country today. Summing up his experiences in war, Francis explains that it made him appreciate home a lot more. He also discusses the long term legacy of the conflict in the U.S., the advantages of having an all-volunteer military, and his lingering psychological scars from his service in Vietnam.

Keywords: Appreciation; Attitudes; Health issues; Legacies; News media; Officers; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Psychological scars; Soldiers; Strategy; Veterans; Volunteer military; Wasted lives; Wounds and injuries

Subjects: Family life.; Military life; Politics and war.; United States. Marine Corps; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Press coverage.; Vietnam War, 1961-1975.