00:00:00HAY: The train.
MAYVILLE: Authentic.
HAY: Yeah, that was great when, uh, in Elmer's interview, when that-- the steam
whistle was going off--
UNKNOWN: Yeah.
HAY: --in the middle of the interview.
UNKNOWN: And then they talked about it.
HAY: I remember that, yeah. Okay, so, today is June the fourteenth, 2018. We are
in Montreal, in Quebec. We are at the Old Montreal Distillery--
MAYVILLE: Um-hm.
HAY: --which is a Sazerac du Canada company and, um, this is an oral history
interview, um, that is going to the University of Kentucky for the Old Montreal
Distillery Oral History Project. Um, my name is Joanna Hay, and today we are
interviewing Drew Mayville--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: --who is the master blender for Sazerac.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: That's it.
HAY: Thank you for doing this. We're in the--
MAYVILLE: My pleasure.
HAY: --we are in the barrel room at the Old Montreal Distillery and we're
looking at--behind Drew we are seeing the first runs of barrels off
00:01:00of the--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --the new--
MAYVILLE: Pretty exciting.
HAY: --the new still.
MAYVILLE: It's uh, our first barrel warehouse here.
HAY: That's pretty cool.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: So--
MAYVILLE: One of many.
HAY: To come?
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: Yeah. So, let's um, we wanted to kind of go back and find out how you got
here, so tell me, Drew, a little bit about, you know, did you grow up? And your
family, parents, siblings, hum, where, where are you from?
MAYVILLE: I'm from a little place called Kitchener, Waterloo. And, actually,
Waterloo was the first Seagram plant built in 1857 and, after school, that's
where I applied, and I applied to the distiller there to work in the distillery.
Um, and he was Mr. Nick Ernst, he was pretty infamous distillery
back--distiller, back in the day, but in 1980, uh, I got in to S, to
00:02:00S, to Seagram, in the original Seagram plant. So, I started there in the
distillery lab, which I learnt all about the process of making different recipes
and some of the best quality uh, distillates that I've ever tasted have come
from that plant, and that's where I started my career back in 1980, so almost
uh, you know, forty years ago.
HAY: What, um, what was your education? What did you study in school, and how
did, what-- Did you think you were headed for the distillery, was that a thought?
MAYVILLE: Yeah, actually, I, I was--my s, my school was more in the science and
chemistry side, and I wanted to work in a lab. So, I applied [for] different
labs. There was a brewery there, at one time. It's no longer there, and the
distillery is gone too, but I applied in that beverage, alcohol industry, and
I really connected with the Seagram, uh, people, when I was
00:03:00interviewing, so that's where I went. But I started actually wanting to be in
this side of the business as far as, uh, the chemistry and science--even when I
was growing up, I had a lab coat. [laughs]--M--my mom and dad bought me a
chemistry set, and I just played for hours upon hours, so I knew I was destined
for something in the science field.
HAY: Huh.
MAYVILLE: So, it started way, way, way, way back, when I was eight or ten years old.
HAY: That's really neat.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, and, uh, I always wanted to work in the lab, so I went there,
worked in the laboratory and learnt all about the process, like I said, and then
what happened was they were looking for someone to go over to quality in the
bottling area, and, at that time, you're talking, you know, in the eighties, it
was really the place to be in the distillery and in the lab especially. So, we
had a lot of people who had a lot of experience that were in the lab,
00:04:00and nobody volunteered to go over to the bottling area.
HAY: Hm.
MAYVILLE: And that's all the quality and, actually, what happened then is they
said, "Well, you're the youngest," because I was just starting there, I was only
there a year and a little bit. They said, "You're going over 'cause you're the
least senior," and that's where I started tasting and learning about quality and
the importance in the Seagram company, and that's how I progressed to where I am
now. [pause to adjust the microphone] So you could not write a better script,
uh, on how to learn about distilling, learning at one of the most famous
distilleries and starting from the very bottom and working your way up through
the organization, where I became the master blender.
HAY: So, lite--so, that shift from the lab into quality, you wouldn't
00:05:00have volunteered--
MAYVILLE: No.
HAY: --for it, if--
MAYVILLE: No.
HAY: --you hadn't been--
MAYVILLE: You wanted to retire in that job, because it was the best job in the distillery.
HAY: But, in fact, that's not--
MAYVILLE: Well, in fact--HAY: Aren't you glad?
MAYVILLE: Yes, it was probably the best move ever, at that stage in my career,
to learn about many other things, including tasting.
HAY: Right, because you needed that to be in this position now.
MAYVILLE: Yes, because, in the distillery was only a part of the job, but the
whole overall with product development and quality and bottling was on the other
side, which I knew nothing about.
HAY: Right. Now, was your family in the distilling business, or in related
businesses in Waterloo? Where--what did your mom and dad do? What were your--
MAYVILLE: No, my, my dad was in management in the tire industry, which was big
in that area, and he actually retired, and my mom was a stay-at-home mom who
looked after five kids and, uh, we grew up, uh, in middle-class, pretty
pretty comfortably, and had a great childhood.
00:06:00
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, but there is some evidence that we did distill on my dad's side
one time. Um, I'm not sure how legal it was at the time, but uh, there was some
of that going on. So, I don't know if that's in the blood, or whether that was
just by chance, but, anyways.
HAY: Um, and is your family generations of Canadians?
MAYVILLE: Yes. Yes, um, my dad is French Canadian, and my mom is Polish
Canadian. So, we have quite a mix and, uh, lots of relatives from both sides,
so, quite an immigrant story from different parts of the world, so, yeah.
HAY: Yeah. Um, and then did everyone sort of stay in this part of the world,
and, and--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --in this area?
MAYVILLE: Except me, I moved.
HAY: You're the only one?MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: And I know where you moved to. Um, you probably never imagined that you
would move to--
MAYVILLE: Never. Um, but I have a great wife who will move anywhere
00:07:00with me to support me, so I'm very fortunate that way, and she's from eastern
Canada, Newfoundland, and, if you know anything about Newfoundland, uh, people,
they're extremely friendly and easygoing.
HAY: Hm.
MAYVILLE: They will get along with anybody, so, uh, she's, she made, she made
all these moves from, say Waterloo in 1988, to Montreal, which was a big change
in culture, because English Canada to French Canada, and that was a huge change culturally.
HAY: Yeah. And then how many--so y--so, Waterloo, to Montreal, and tell me about
the time in Montreal. What dis--where were you then at?
MAYVILLE: In Montreal--
HAY: Um-hm.
MAYVILLE--as far as job--
HAY: Um-hm.
MAYVILLE--um, I went through the ranks in different positions, uh, even
including packaging, uh, quality and ultimately becoming the, uh,
00:08:00director of technical services for the company and eventually becoming director
of technical services in blending. So, through various positions, moved up
through the ranks, honed my skill with Mr. Art Dawe and, uh, as he mentored me,
and actually became the master blender for Seagram, which, uh, not too bad from
the distillery, the original distillery of Seagram, to the master blender of
Seagram for North America.
HAY: That's amazing.
MAYVILLE: Yeah. It was a great--it's been a great career.
HAY: So, back up just a little bit. When you say you came to Montreal--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --do you mean the LaSalle plant?
MAYVILLE: Actually, it was a bit of both.
HAY: Okay.
MAYVILLE: I was between corporate office and back in the plant, so I, I
basically went to Montreal in charge of materials, and then I went to the plant
as quality manager so again, more tasting, more development work, and
00:09:00then I went back to the head office and did technical services. So, back and
forth between the two, which I think really rounds out an individual, because
you have both experiences of being in a production facility, and then also in a
corporate environment.
HAY: So, that head office, is that the picture, the famous Peel Street--
MAYVILLE: Actually--
HAY: --building?
MAYVILLE: --they had many offices downtown, and I was originally in the Old
Domil--Dominion Square building, and moved to Place Montreal-Trust, which is one
the m--more modern office buildings, because we had so many people.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: The little Peel Street office wouldn't actually accommodate all those people.
HAY: No.
MAYVILLE: So, we did go there a lot for meetings and stuff, so--
HAY: Yeah. Is that where, uh, Sam Bronfman was?
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: He was in the Peel Street office?
MAYVILLE: Although, he was never around when I started [at] the company--
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: --but they still--I remember having, uh he had his desk
00:10:00there, that they preserved, which is kind of neat.
HAY: Um, and then his son Edgar was--must have been--or was he in New York--
MAYVILLE: No, actually, Charles was the one I dealt with most in Canada, because
he was the Canadian operations figure--
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: --and Edgar was in the US.
HAY: Got it.
MAYVILLE: His brother.
HAY: Um, we'll talk more about that. Uh, but before I ask you about Art Dawe,
um, yeah--you want to have a sip?
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: Yup.
MAYVILLE: Please.
HAY: So, as I think about the geography of, of Waterloo, and then LaSalle and
the other offices here--the headquarters in Montreal, but then you also had the
big, big New York City building that was kind of the--
MAYVILLE: 375 Park Ave.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, that was--we, we did go there quite a bit for meetings and
tastings when uh, I was at, you know, doing different things with
00:11:00different formulas and it was very intimidating, going to New York, uh, but they
had also an office in White Plains, where I spent a lot of time, uh, with the
manufacturing team is on the leadership team with the manufacturing group.
HAY: Did you feel like Seagram was a Canadian company?
MAYVILLE: Yes, all the time. I don't--I know it was like rooted in both U.S. and
Canada, but it felt to me, being Canadian, that it was a Canadian company, yes.
HAY: And then the s, the significance of Montreal, we talked about this, you
know, Montreal being--kind of being the epicenter of--
MAYVILLE: Blending.
HAY: --of blending.
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: Describe that--
MAYVILLE: Blending and quality.
HAY: --to me, tell me about that.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, it became, uh, because I think of Art Dawe and being located
physically there, all the blending to, even to this day, when it's with Diageo,
is the blending center for them, but it was always in Montreal, and the people
that worked for me when I was at Seagram, are with Diageo now doing
00:12:00the same things. So, it's always been that epicenter for quality and blending
for North America, yes.
HAY: So, let's go back to Art Dawe. So you, you became a master blender with
Seagram, one of the last--
MAYVILLE: The last.
HAY: The!
MAYVILLE: Of only four.
HAY: So, say that again, say that sentence to me.
MAYVILLE: [laughs]--I was the last master blender for Seagram in their history,
before they were disbanded and sold off to two companies.
HAY: Wow.
MAYVILLE: Of only four, so. Roy Martin and then Art Dawe and then Art Peterson
and then myself. So, when--the good news is that when everybody retired, I was
the last person standing, so it was perfect.
HAY: [laughs]
MAYVILLE: No. But, you know, you had to mentor y--because there's no books on
how to become a master blender. I mean, there's no course that you can take that
says, "Okay, you're a master blender." It's that experience and that
00:13:00knowledge of the different whiskies and the terminologies that you would
actually absorb over many years of working with these products that makes you a
master blender, and Seagram was definitely one of the best in the world for
training in that, because we had some of the best blenders.
HAY: Right?
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: So Art Dawe, we interviewed--you and I interviewed Art Dawe yesterday.
MAYVILLE: Yeah, it was a pleasure.
HAY: It was a pleasure.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: That's great. Um, we didn't talk about his, how, how old he was, but he did
say what his, his birthdate was, during our interview, I think. Did he say--
MAYVILLE: I think he's ninety.
HAY: --he was born in 1928? I think he said '28.
MAYVILLE: He's ninety, he had his ninetieth birthday this year.
HAY: Yeah. So, tell us about getting--becoming hired and being mentored by Art
Dawe. What was he like?
MAYVILLE: Well, Art was always, always, always concerned about the individual.
People are very important to him, and he mentored everybody, not
00:14:00always directly, but indirectly making sure--because he was the one who, who
really moved me from Waterloo to Montreal. You know, there was a person
in-between, because that was the hiring manager, but he was always behind the
scenes, making sure you're alright--as a matter of fact, when we arrived and we
moved in, he sent us a nice, beautiful gift of flowers and "Welcome to
Montreal." So, he was always there in the background, um, supporting and
encouraging me, as an individual and, you know, I wouldn't be the only he did
that to. He would do that very consistently, because of the type of person he
was, and he is.
HAY: Do you have any particular thing or a story that illustrates Art Dawe's
mentorship or just his personality?
MAYVILLE: Well, the most important thing is the, uh, his, his words of wisdom
that I, I still to this day think of, where you work with the--you,
00:15:00you, you always think about the quality of the product and the taste of the
product. Every time we would make something or do something, it was all about
the quality and, and the taste, and I think that's one of the things that I took
back to Sazerac with me is, it's not about cost-savings. You know, large,
traditional companies, it's all about saving money, um, the quality really
becomes secondary or third, and one of the things, uh, Seagram did, was quality
was paramount. It was the most important thing, and I get the same message from
Sazerac. It's all about the taste, it's all about the quality of the product
versus "oh no, you've got to make that cheaper," and I have lots of examples
where, time and time again, that's reinforced with Sazerac, which is really a
pleasure for me to work, uh, in a company that takes that seriously,
00:16:00the taste of the product.
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: But Art used to always support that thinking--and that's where I got
it from, I really believe that.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: And, anytime it would come down to quality versus cost, quality won
every time.
HAY: And you saw that, you saw that came down from above--
MAYVILLE: Oh, it was--.
HAY: --and--MAYVILLE: Right. And, as a matter of fact, if I was in a company
that didn't do that, I would have second thoughts about joining a company like that.
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: It's vain.
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: We'll talk more about what's happening with Sazerac, um, in a minute. But
tell me, wha--I found out yesterday that Art Dawe had a nickname.
MAYVILLE: The Nose. Yeah, he's been referred to "The Nose," and that's just
because of his guidance and his expertise at all these whiskies. He was the
go-to person for all these products in the company, from the top levels of the
company, so they wouldn't do anything without his, his opinion and thought, so...
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: And I think he's pretty well-known in the industry, by
00:17:00various people as being the one and only expert, you know, uh, emeritus or
whatever we want to call it, in the industry. And he, basically, is like an
Elmer T. Lee was, in the Canadian whisky industry, as far as I'm concerned.
HAY: I'm glad we got that interview with him yesterday.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: If he is that Elmer T. Lee of--yeah.
MAYVILLE: I, I think he is, uh, there's nobody else like him, and we're
fortunate to have him around still.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Yeah. I aspire to stuff like that--what he's done and what he's
contributed to the Canadian whisky industry.
HAY: Yeah. So, you're at Montreal, um, and Art Dawe has retired. I think he said
he retired in '93 or '97, yesterday--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --um, and you're working for Seagram and the company is doing really well,
and then everything changes. Can you tell the story of what happened
00:18:00with the sale of Seagram, how that affected you and your job, and everything?
What--tell us that story. What happened?
MAYVILLE: Well, it was kind of, um, slow, because we've, you know, we've heard
rumors for--just before it happened quite a bit, you know, that something was
happening, and then it was announced, and it was a real shock to a lot of
people, because everybody thought Seagram would be there forever. I mean, that
was like a blue chip, profitable company that nobody would ever think of
selling, and it was quite a shock to most people and, to this day, a lot of
people still resent that, that it was sold. Um, because I still talk to a lot of
people who worked for Seagram at the time, and they still, uh, [are] very upset
about it to this day. But it was a really, um, dramatic turnaround, because
everybody's lives were disrupted, for something that shouldn't have
00:19:00happened. It happened, and what happened basically, is two companies bought
Seagram and split it up, so Diageo got the--the spirits side, the maturates
side, the, the blended whisky side, or blended products, like rums, whiskies,
and Pernod got a lot of the other products, and so, some people from Sazer--or
Seagram went to Diageo, based on what experience they have, some went to Pernod
Ricard, because of their experience, and then there was a bunch of people who
just weren't hired by either company. So, it was kind of, like, upsetting for
many people that had, you know, basically to look for another job, and, uh, so,
some fortunate people got with one or the other companies and moved on, and then
also, also, the people who didn't--actually most of them I think
00:20:00done--had, had fared pretty well with the--looking for other opportunities,
because Seagram was such a well-known company and had such a great name. Most of
them did better, um, and they, at least, didn't suffer too much, though.
HAY: Yep.
MAYVILLE: So that was kind of good.
HAY: So what route did you take? What ha--
MAYVILLE: I went with Diageo, because of the products that went with Diageo.
They went with, uh, you know, the Captain Morgans, the Crown Royals and
that--those are all my brands--Seagram Gin. All those products in North America,
they own, at that time, then, so that's why I went with them. I had the offer
from them. But that was short-lived, only a couple of years, before I got the
call for Sazerac.
HAY: Where did you go, to work for Diageo? Did you have to relocate?
MAYVILLE: No, it was the same--
HAY: It was--it stayed?
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: So the plant--
MAYVILLE: So, Ville LaSalle was the headquarters for that.
HAY: Got you.
MAYVILLE: And, to this day, they still ha--are.
HAY: Got you, so the geographi--so, Montreal's remained that.
00:21:00
MAYVILLE: Yeah. The plant's gone, but the blending area's still there, the
blending team, which is really interesting. I always thought that they would
move, but they haven't, which is very interesting to me, but.
HAY: And Diageo is a British company?
MAYVILLE: Um-hm.
HAY: Yeah. So th--so yeah, the identity, everybody, that must have been a shock
to all these Canadians who, yeah, suddenly, they'd been working for this
wonderful Canadian company, and--
MAYVILLE: Yeah, and, uh, it's just, when you think back about it [clears throat]
the people that used to work for me, who were junior blenders and stuff, now
some of them have moved up in the ranks where they're actually the master
blender for certain products and stuff, so. I--in a way, it feels good, because
those are the people that, you know, worked with me--
HAY: That's right.
MAYVILLE: --and now--they have risen to higher positions and I--it kind of
feels--I was part of that, you know?
HAY: Yeah. Yeah, the--your mentorship--
00:22:00
MAYVILLE: Right, so--
HAY: --affected all of those younger--
MAYVILLE: Yeah, I think, I think so.
HAY: Yeah. So, two years, then, and then what happened?
MAYVILLE: Then I got the call to go to Buffalo Trace Distillery, which wasn't,
um, a very well-known distillery, but had lots of potential, and one of the
reasons it did is, because of a person called Mark Brown, the CEO of the
company, who definitely had a vision where he wanted to go, and I think he felt
my experience in different product lines, even though they were not in most of
those product lines at the time, thought I could contribute and help for the
future, for where he wanted to go, and I think history has proven that's true.
We definitely are moving in all kinds of directions, and it's been extremely
exciting. There's no, no rest, I mean, it's always active, we're always
expanding, we're always getting bigger and it's very interesting and, probably
the best thing of all, I get to try new things, whereas in those
00:23:00other companies like Diageo and even Seagram, there were just standard products
that we supported. Whereas Sazerac gives you the opportunity not just to support
the standard products, but to explore and innovate and look at new ways of doing
things, and that's actually encouraged, which is really, really, really exciting
for someone like me, who's been around so long in the industry.HAY: So, um, you
packed up your family and moved to Kentucky.
MAYVILLE: Louisville and, again, change, change is never easy, but, um, it was
really, uh, enjoyable, and we love Louisville, and it's a great place to live. I
mean, it's, it's just not about the work you do, it's also the living and, uh,
and, you know, surprisingly, it's not that far from even relatives that I have
in Canada. It's only about an eight, eight-and-a-half-hour drive. So,
00:24:00you, you're not, it's not insurmountable to drive.
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: So, it's, it's very comfortable. Sometimes, distance is very good
between family, you know--[laughs]--You don't want to always be so close, but.
HAY: And then it's extra special when you come together.
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Yes, and we do get up a lot, and, a great thing about Montreal is I,
you know, I have to go through and come up to Montreal, to the Old Montreal
Distillery once in a while, which is really nice. So, I can meet family and
friends again.
HAY: So, I bet you never imagined th--af--when you took the position with
Sazerac and moved to Louisville, that Montreal would come back into your world, like--
MAYVILLE: Not in a million years, until one day, Mr., uh, Brown, and--wanted me
to come to Montreal for a, for some, some meetings and, on the way up in the
elevator, he says, "Well, you're going to run this plant. I mean,
00:25:00you're going to be in charge of this plant." And I said--because there was some
reason he wanted me to be here so bad on that particular day. As a matter of
fact, it was a disaster coming, because my flight was cancelled, I was stuck
in--I think it was Detroit--and I couldn't get here, and I let him know and he
seemed pretty upset, and I thought, "Gee, there's something strange there." So,
what I did is, I knew how to get around in Canada, because I lived here for most
of my life at that time, and I actually got a, an internal flight in Canada. So,
I moved up to Toronto. Through Toronto, I got to Montreal in the morning, and I
was able to be here at that time, but I understood it all when he said, on the
way up in the elevator, before the meeting that, "You're going to be in charge
of this plant." And, it just shocked me, and that's what happens at Sazerac,
things happen very quickly, and it was really, uh, quite fun and exciting,
because we were growing so fast, we didn't have the proper structure
00:26:00yet, and everybody had to pitch in, so you wear many hats at Sazerac, which kind
of revitalizes a person, um, because I had a lot of responsibilities besides
working with some of the best whiskies, and that was one of them. Until we
actually had a structure that we could actually incorporate properly, and then I
wouldn't have to do that, so it just, just the way we work, is--it's very fast.
HAY: That's really pretty cool.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: So, he didn't--
MAYVILLE: No.
HAY: --give you a heads-up at all?
MAYVILLE: Yeah, nobody knows about that, except him and I, but it was pretty,
uh, pretty good.
HAY: So you knew--that Sazerac had bought this distillery?
MAYVILLE: Yes. We were in the process of buying it.
HAY: Were in the proc--but you hadn't seen it yet. You hadn't--
MAYVILLE: Well, yeah. I hadn't--this, that was the first time, and he, uh, he
just shocked me.
HAY: [laughs]
MAYVILLE: And it was only temporary, because we, we weren't, we just
00:27:00weren't structured for it yet, but, uh--
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: --you know, as we got structured, it was, uh, it was given to another
person. But also, Jerry, who runs the plant here, I used to work with at
Seagram, so there's a connection too. It's amazing how things always come back
in this industry. It seems so small sometimes.
HAY: How many Seagram, former Seagram people do you think are here? I know the
ones I've met, that I know about, but y--so there's Guy--
MAYVILLE: Yeah, there's probably about three.
HAY: Yeah?
MAYVILLE: Three or four. Yeah.
HAY: Yeah, that is, that's pretty interesting.
MAYVILLE: And Tino and--
HAY: Um, and, when you first came here, this was--had no still. There was no
distilling operation.
MAYVILLE: They had a still, but it wasn't operational, and they used to do a
little distillation, but nowhere near as what we have now and that we could make
eighteen barrels a day and it's, it's quite a bit different from when I first
came, yes.
00:28:00
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: But years ago, they used to distill, and it became more of a bottling
plant, and we do a lot of different products here, but now, uh, a new
opportunity has come.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: And it changed pretty quick.
HAY: Yeah. Um, and this week, we've been focusing on this, uh, this, the art of
blending, um--
MAYVILLE: That's what I do.
HAY: And that's what you do, and everything, everything we, you know, look at,
and all of the ways we, um, are looking at what's happening here, at this
distillery, is about, is about the blending.
MAYVILLE: It's, it's all about the blending, and we want to elevate blending to
a new level. It's an art form, and we want to elevate that such that we mix
great whiskies that taste great, that win a lot of awards. We want to put
Canadian whisky back in the forefront of being excellent whiskies, and
everything we do is to make a better whisky here, at Montreal.
00:29:00
HAY: Uh, we were talking, um, you talked about how your time at Buffalo Trace
and working in bourbon has affected and changed the way you think about blending
and how has bourbon affected, your work in bourbon affected what you're doing
now with Canadian whiskies?
MAYVILLE: It just gave me a different mindset. It's, uh, there's very few people
that have the experience of working with Canadian whiskies. Seagram was the
best. Working with blending, you know, blending forty or fifty different
whiskies to make a final product... Same goes with rum, uh, just about
everything they touched was a masterpiece of blending, and I think they have a
really good reputation for that. So, that, bringing down to bourbon has helped,
but then bringing the Canadian whisky blending piece, uh, together--because all
whiskies, are [in] essence, blended except for single barrel, and that's given
me the inspiration to develop new and better whiskies, and,
00:30:00traditionally, Canadian whisky has been, you know, perceived to be relatively
value-oriented, in terms of product type, so we want to elevate that and fill
the space into premium Canadian whiskies. So, we--that, that, um, experience
that I have with bourbon has pointed me more towards the more flavorful, robust
and complex whiskies, while maintaining the smoothness of a Canadian whisky, so
it's kind of, in essence, a blend of the two, if you forgive me for saying that,
but it's, it's actually pretty exciting, because I know I can make some great
whiskies. And that's the objective here, is to make great whiskies, and I really
get the opportunity to do it here, because it's never been done. The still is
very new, and we're going to make some great whiskies, and we've
00:31:00started already.
HAY: And this expec--you're able to experiment and--
MAYVILLE: Everything we do here is an experiment because it's never been done
here before, so everything is new. We don't know how it's going to turn out. We
have all our mash bills set. We're working on lots of designs for more
experiments to, to try and make better whiskies, much like we do at Buffalo
Trace, and all our distilleries at Sazerac. So the whole, uh, concept of making
better whiskies will be done here, as it is in other Sazerac distilleries.
HAY: Can you define, can you define what a Canadian whisky is? Can you tell
me--MAYVILLE: Oh, from the legal definition, it's made in Canada. Distilled,
aged and--It doesn't have to be bottled in Canada, but it's distilled, matured
in Canada. It has to be a minimum of three years old, so that's your basic
entry-level to be a Canadian whisky. And, traditionally, Canadian
00:32:00whiskies have been a base whisky mixed with a flavoring whisky and the, the best
way to describe a flavoring whisky is like a bourbon-type flavor. So, you've got
to imagine the base whisky being very neutral and the flavoring whisky being
very flavorful. So you mix a large part of the base whisky with the flavoring
whisky, which is a smaller part, and that's what a Canadian whisky,
traditionally, was structured like, but that's changing over the last ten years.
It's changing to more of the flavorful side, more like a bourbon, a rye, very
typical what, uh, American whiskey or bourbon is like.
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: So that's changing, but I think I can make it even better than that,
so when you have different components to blend, I can give you different
flavours you can't experience with bourbon, and that's my challenge and passion
but I'm going to do that. Because now, we're putting the, the palette
00:33:00together of different flavours, to be able to do that, and that's, that's what I
really enjoy.
HAY: So, you're blending these whiskies, but then w--you've also released this
Canadi--Caribou Crossing?
MAYVILLE: Yes, that's a single barrel.
HAY: Can you talk about Caribou Crossing? How did that start, and where is it,
where is it going? What's it--MAYVILLE: Hopefully up, but it's an aged product
that's quite old, and when it's old, in Canadian whisky, it's very smooth and
very creamy, buttery mouth-feel, and this particular one has a mash bill that's
got some spiciness to it, but also some softness at the same time. So, it's a
beautiful whisky that I pick from, uh, over half a million barrels we have aging
in Canada. So, it's a very selective process and it's an excellent
00:34:00whisky. Once you taste it--and you can taste it straight or neat--and it's a
fantastic whisky and most, everybody that ever's--ever tried it before
want--would like more of it, because it's so good.
HAY: So how on Earth do you keep track in your head or your memory, um, of all
of these-- how many thousands of barrels did you just say you--you select from,
to make that Caribou?
MAYVILLE: We have, uh, over half a million aging in Canada, of, of barrels.
Certain amount or percentage of those happen to be this taste profile that I'm
looking for, so you narrow it down quite a bit with that, but I could
als--always go to another taste profile and have another segment of those
barrels that I could use, and then the barrels that you see behind me are aging,
and these are made here, from this distillery, which will turn out to
00:35:00be another taste profile. I'm sure behind me there might be five different mash
bills that we'll be able to use as a blending tool, or we may use them as
straights. So, maybe good enough to use and drink as it is.
HAY: So, will you come in and--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --have a taste of these every year, or every six months, or every--
MAYVILLE: Oh, I start from day and night. No, I'm just kidding.
HAY: [laughs]
MAYVILLE: But, basically, what we do is, we take samples and we do composites.
So, you take an average, so to speak.
HAY: Of that batch?
MAYVILLE Yeah, of that lot.
HAY: Of that lot.
MAYVILLE: And we're just sampling now to see how it's aging in the first few months--
HAY: Right.
MAYVILLE: --and then we'll watch the progress of that aging.
HAY: And you need to remember that. I mean, it's not like you can write down,
you can write--
MAYVILLE: Yeah, you can write down, but--
HAY: But--it's very subjective words, right? Or do you have--
MAYVILLE: Yeah, it's descriptive.
HAY: Descriptive.
MAYVILLE: Yes. You--you can write it down, but it's going to change.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: So, we know it's going to change because it's aging. Every,
00:36:00every six months, if you sample, you'll see a change--
HAY: Um-hm.
MAYVILLE: --in the taste profile--
HAY: And you'll track--
MAYVILLE Right. So, the distillate character that you're tasting is very
predominant at the beginning, and it starts decreasing as its aging and developing.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: And then eventually, as you get really old, it becomes very rich
flavor. Um, it just depends on the taste profile that you're looking for.
HAY: So, on those Canadians where, Canadian whiskies where you're--tell me how
many, how many barrels you might have selected from, for an average Canadian whisky.
MAYVILLE: Well, typically, an average Canadian whisky would probably have less
than ten components, but if you wanted a more sophisticated, you could be using
forty, fifty, sixty different whiskies. And when I say different whiskies, it's
not just mash bills, but it's also taste profiles based on the type of wood you
have, the location that those barrels are situated in so there's a
00:37:00lot of variables that are different whiskies and will give you a different
taste. Because when I do, uh, tastings with different whiskies, I show people
that age makes a difference in taste profile, um, barrels make a big difference,
all these different components, and that's the beauty of making a whisky that's
relatively complex, is that you have all these variables that you can control
and manage the taste profile.
HAY: Can you talk about that metaphor of the artist's palette--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: --in, in--and, and the blending? Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Well, if you think about it, it's pretty simple. When you have, uh, an
artist that has a palette of colors and that artist paints a beautiful picture,
the end product is better than the individual colours, obviously. There's a
skill or an artistry. And the same with whisky, there's an artistry. You have
all these flavors that I just talked about, and you put them together in what
you think will be a good final blend, so it could become a
00:38:00masterpiece, just like an artist. It's the same concept, and the artistry is
basically the same, but it's based on your knowledge and experience of the
different whiskies and what goes together, what doesn't, and I think, I think
it's very similar.
HAY: Um-hm. I want to ask you about this upcoming release, uh, Mr. Sam, this
product. But before--if we can. Are you allowed to--MAYVILLE: I don't think
we're allowed.
HAY: We're not to?
MAYVILLE: It's--UNKNOWN: -----------(??)
HAY: Oh.
MAYVILLE: I haven't been given the go-ahead, but it's--
HAY: Um, okay, well then, let me we--whatever that might be, we can look at this
in--before it goes into the archive, and we can--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: --and we can set some of this aside, before it goes into the archive,
obviously. Um, but, this still, here, is called Mr. Sam.
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: And so--and there isn't--and there is a potential release, of something
related to that--[laughs]--Can we talk about Mr. Sam, um--
MAYVILLE: Well, I can talk about it, but if it's alright then, just
00:39:00edit it out.
HAY: Yeah. Yeah.
MAYVILLE: Yeah. So, so, everything we've been talking about is my experience and
history of working with Canadian whisky and American whiskey, bourbons, et
cetera. So, this product will be a combination and tribute to Mr. Sam of both
those. So, now, I've blended a product that will actually pay tribute to Mr. Sam
of those whiskies of Canada and the U.S. So, I think it's a masterpiece, and I
think it's going to do very well, and it'll be released in the near-future, okay.
HAY: Um, I love that this--the column still has been named--
MAYVILLE: Mr. Sam. Yeah.
HAY: --Mr. Sam.
MAYVILLE: Yes. All those thirty-seven feet, Mr. Sam. It's pretty, uh, pretty
awesome when you walk into the room and see this giant column still,
00:40:00and that's where we're making our whiskies today, and it also has a pot still,
which is the second distillation after that, so we have that versatility of
using both or one, or the other, and, definitely, that's something we're going
to experiment with.
HAY: I was going to ask you about that. We're going to come back to that. Um,
I'm going to ask kind of a nutty question. I don't know how this one is going to
go. Mark Brown--we don't hear a lot from Mark Brown in, in the public, um--
MAYVILLE: No, I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to, he doesn't want to be heard.
HAY: [laughs]--I--we have his oral history, and that is--
MAYVILLE: Oh.
HAY: -- it is out and it's published. It's streamed at the archive, so he says
he knows people have watched that, uh, oral history interview when they say
certain things to him. What about--could we compare--make a comparison
maybe we can't, to the visionary Sam Bronfman and the vision--and the
00:41:00visionary Mark Brown? Is, these sort of, these are--Mark Brown is really doing
innovative things here and, you know, Ma--and then of course Mr. Sam was--do you
want to go there? Is there anything you--that that sparks when I ask, when I
suggest that?
MAYVILLE: Yeah, it does, actually. Um, what you just said is absolutely one
hundred percent true. I mean, there's no question in my mind that Mark is a
visionary, and he's leading the company the direction he wants with Mr. [Bill]
Goldring and I--I believe there is tremendous parallels between the two and, if
anything, I think Mark and Mr. Goldring, the difference is they know the
mistakes that Seagram made, especially at the end, and they're not
00:42:00going to repeat those mistakes. So, that's why [I'm] pretty happy to be with
this company because I think it's, it's got the foundation to become another
Seagram worldwide, and we see evidence of it happening all the time, and they
won't make the same mistakes. So, I do see that parallel between the two, that
visionary, uh, because one thing I know with, with Mark, is he has a vision and
he executes against the vision. So, all his decisions and all our decisions as a
company, is always weighed against the vision, if it makes sense. And, you know,
companies have visions and mission statements and, most of the time--and I know
this for a fact--it's just words on paper, whereas Mark actually uses it and
makes decision based on his vision. So, I think the execution is superior than
most companies and, I think, they won't make the same mistakes that Seagram
made, because there was some mistakes made at the end.
00:43:00
HAY: Um, are the personalities of Mr. Sam and Mark Brown the same, or different?
MAYVILLE: It's kind of hard to say, um, because I never met Mr. Sam, but when I
talked to Art and others, it seems like Mr. Sam was, uh, very demanding, and you
knew it--[laughs]--So, Mark is extremely demanding also, um, but in, in a, at a,
in a better, more human way. Always, always, always, always makes you feel part
of the team and the family, which I,--I don't--I can't say that Mr. Sam did
that, because I don't know him, but I can say that Mark makes you feel like
you're part of the team and you're valued. So, you know, working for, for a
company has many sides to it. You know, one is obviously pay and those things,
but when you feel valued, um, you wanna stay wi--and, and, and you're
00:44:00committed to that company. So, he has that talent that very few people have, at
that level, that he makes you want to be part of the team and he recognizes you
for it. And I can't say the same about Sam because I wasn't here, uh, when he
was alive.
HAY: Yeah. But we've certainly heard stories about Mr. Sam--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: --a bit of a [makes cracking sound] [laughs]
MAYVILLE: He was, he was pretty tough, and when you listen to Art
behind-the-scenes, he'll tell you that, but I didn't know him and, actually, he
was very nervous when Mr. Sam was around, Art, when he was younger. So, that
just shows you the, uh, I guess respect, but also, uh, in case something
happened, they would be pretty upset about.
HAY: Yeah. In the story, Art told yesterday, he was litera--he was fearful that
he was gonna--
MAYVILLE: Right.
HAY: --write--a number down wrong--
MAYVILLE: Right.
HAY: --incorrectly. There was great fear.
MAYVILLE: Well, don't get me wrong, uh, working with Mark, you have
00:45:00to be very good too, you just can't--
HAY: Got it.
MAYVILLE: --let your game down, right? But it--the expectations are high, but
also the, uh, feelings of, uh, being part of a team is extremely high.
HAY: Yeah.
MAYVILLE: And value. And, you know what, building something is important too,
and he makes you feel like you're helping build the company. As a matter of
fact, Mr. Goldring is also like that, because he sent, you know, some people
this little booklet of, uh, things that we've done in the last so many years,
and sent a personal note saying, "Thank you for your contribution in the last
years, couldn't have done it without you." So, how do you put a value on that
and make people, make, makes you feel like you're part of a team, and you're
valued, so that, that, that is a big difference for me.
HAY: That's great.
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: That's really great. Um, can we pause for a moment? I want to take a sip of
water, and then.
00:46:00
UNKNOWN: Speed.
MAYVILLE: Speak?
HAY: Speed.
UNKNOWN: Speed, I'm sorry.HAY: Speed, that means things are--
MAYVILLE: Speak.
HAY: Speed. It's rolling.
UNKNOWN: [Claps] An old film term.
MAYVILLE: Hm.
HAY: Okay, here's what we're thinking. The, we're rolling, just going to wait
for the door.
UNKNOWN: Walter's coming through.
HAY: I thought I would ask a little history--a little history question, and then
we'll come back to, uh, some--a Jean-Denis question. So, uh, [Davin] Kergommeaux
that--the author--says, "The story of Canadian whisky is the story of Canada."
He also s--and then, also the idea that Canadian whisky is the story of
redemption. It has gone from the lawless era during Prohibition to a quality
product in the tradition of Mr. Sam. I'm wondering if you would just like to
talk about the context of C--about Canadian whisky in the context of,
00:47:00of Canada.
MAYVILLE: Yeah. Well, Canadian whisky, um--there's some steam, huh?
HAY: Oh, let it go. Start over.
MAYVILLE: Canadian whisky, um, originated using rye mostly in--basically, people
distilled what they had available in terms of grains. After you, uh, if you had
lots of rye, for instance, um, you would ferment and then distill, and you'd
have a product that you would drink. So, Canadian whisky had rye at their
disposal and, traditionally, it was a rye whisky, and that's why you call it
Canadian rye whisky. So, if you order a rye whisky at the bar in Canada, they'll
give you a Canadian whisky. Yes. Whereas in the U.S., you would order a, a rye
whiskey, you'd probably get a straight rye, which is the difference. But, in
Canada, legally, the definition says that you do--do not need to add
00:48:00rye to Canadian rye whisky. It can be any cereal grain. So, it could be corn,
but, traditionally, Canadians drank a straight rye, but over time, uh, tastes
change, and people wanted more mild and mellow whisky, and eventually it became
more of an accent flavor versus a predominant flavor. And, in some places in
Canada, it was wheat and, depending on where you were, but a lot of the people
that distilled, uh, used what was available. So, the transition from something
that was all-rye to a product that was more palatable, so to speak, to today's
palate, um, it actually has grown in complexity and ease of drink, so I think
Canadians prefer the softer, milder flavors of a Canadian whisky versus, say, a
bourbon, which is very flavorful. And, that's traditionally, but
00:49:00that's changing, so I think the complexity is changing. In the last ten years, a
lot of the Canadian whiskies have won many awards around the world, and those
were um, more flavorful, robust whiskies. So, it's changing, and premium-ising.
So, the standard Canadian whisky that was mixable, that you could put it with
ginger ale or Coca-Cola, is changed, and that's always going to be there, that
segment of the market, but what's happening is the premium-isation of Canadian
whisky, and that trend has been the last, say, ten years, where it's really
taken off. And, definitely, we're going to capitalize that, but we're going to
take it to another level.
HAY: And when you think about the past and, um, obviously, Prohibition was part
of the American whiskey story, as well as part of the Canadian whisky story. Are
there any thoughts about this--the history of this industry that you are in--you
know, you've--and the generations that came before?
00:50:00
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: Any thoughts on that?
MAYVILLE: Yeah, I would say, uh, well, we didn't have Prohibition at that time
as the U.S. in Canada, so Canadian whisky was being produced and it was entering
the U.S., various means. Um, so, so, Canadian whisky, while they were aging and
developing great whiskies, the U.S. whiskey scene was kind of at a standstill.
So, when Prohibition ended, the Canadian whisky--you had a gr--tremendous amount
of Canadian whisky, of aged quality whisky, whereas nothing was available in the
U.S. from their own stockpile, because they couldn't. So, what happened is, all
those years, Canadian whisky, uh, was being shipped to the U.S. and they were
drinking Canadian whisky and they develop a taste for Canadian whisky, and to
this day, that still continues. Um, even though it may have been on the decline
the last few years, but people had a great quality whisky from Canada
00:51:00that they could drink after Prohibition. And I think that's where it took the
foothold of Canadian whisky in the United States. You know, the bourbon industry
has changed and it's really coming on strong, and it's probably taking out some
of that Canadian whisky drinking, because people are progressing into different
flavors and tastes.
HAY: And the palates--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --the palate is changing.
MAYVILLE: Definitely.
HAY: [The] consumer's palate is changing.
MAYVILLE: So, Canadian whisky has its place in history, especially after and
during Prohibition in the U.S.
HAY: So, Art started to tell us the story, he didn't tell us the whole story--
MAYVILLE: No, he told--
HAY: --in his interview yesterday--
MAYVILLE: Yeah.
HAY: --but why was there a bottle in a ca--in a sardine can, do you think?
MAYVILLE: Probably to keep it from getting wet.
HAY: And why would you need to keep--
MAYVILLE: Well, because you know, you would probably tran--I'm theorizing
here--but you would transport it across the water, the river into the U.S.,
illegally, right? And there's different methodologies they happen to
00:52:00use back then.
HAY: Clever, industrious people.
MAYVILLE: Oh yes.
HAY: Hm. If there's a, that's always been the case though, when there's a
demand, the supply is always--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --found. Um, thank you for talking about that history. I wanted to, um,
we're going to interview Jean-Denis next. You--
MAYVILLE: Yes.
HAY: --and I are both going to do that interview. Uh, can you talk about
Jean-Denis Boivin? He is the mast--or, before we talk about Jean-Denis, can you
talk about how you, as the master blender, work with a master distiller? For
example, here, at the Old Montreal Distillery. What-- how did the two of you
work together?
MAYVILLE: I think it's kind of the traditional relationship, whereas the
distilling is more of a science, and blending being more of an art, and we kind
of work together to make sure both are being done, and we get some new and
interesting whiskies that will be award-winning down, down the road,
00:53:00after they age. So, he's executing the mash bills and the plans, and now we're
both developing experiments--future experiments--to work with different types of
wood, mash bills, et cetera, even yeasts. So, there's lots of opportunities,
because, like I said before, everything we're making right now is an experiment
because we haven't done it here before, and as we progress, we'll be expanding
that, uh, palette, so to speak, of different flavors, based on all our
experiments. So, we work together to do that and, uh, as a matter of fact, just
the other day when I was here, we went and looked at the whisky, how it's aging,
from our first experiment. So, we have to continually experiment, make new
whiskies, and also assess as it's aging, to see how it's aging, because say it's
not aging and not tasting the way we want, we actually can change it
00:54:00then, so the next time. So that dialogue has to always go on, and we have to
work very closely. And it's no different than working with the master distiller
in--at Buffalo Trace, Harlen [Wheatley], and that dialogue needs to take place
on a regular basis, because we're, we're here to make a better whisky. Okay.
HAY: That's great. That really covered that, that part of, um, the story that we
were looking for. Um, ah.
MAYVILLE: The last one?
HAY: What--maybe the last one, I usually have another last one. The Old Montreal
Distillery is being hu--huge renovations have happened here, on the distilling
side, this warehouse is new, um, but there's also going to be a visitor
experience here. Starting soon, and everyone who has worked here for a while,
they're getting used to this idea. It's--
MAYVILLE: It's new for them. Very new.
HAY: Yeah. Talk about, you know, why do you want their visitors to
00:55:00come here to visit, and what do you hope they take away from the visit?
MAYVILLE: I think, for me, is--is experiential for them, that they can
experience a distillery and see what's--what we do to make it an art form. Um,
it's not just matter of turning on a spigot and running something, it's, there's
a whole process of, uh, ensuring the final product is superior, and that
includes not just the process, but also the art of blending, because once you do
make these products in different taste profiles, they need to be assembled in
the right way, because if they're not, it's not going to be a very good product.
So, when they come here, I would like them to experience the distillery, what we
do here, and also learn a little bit about Canadian whisky. So, when they leave,
they'll ha--understand the recipe and the taste profile of our products
and they'll never forget it. So, any time they taste a whisky that's
00:56:00made in the future, they'll understand it a little bit better. Okay.
HAY: Are there any stories that you thought you might want to tell--
MAYVILLE: Nope--[laughs]
HAY: --or that crossed your mind?
MAYVILLE: You asked Art the same question.
HAY: Is there anything I should have asked you that I didn't think to ask you?
MAYVILLE: Yeah. I--lots of people ask me when I'm want to retire, and I always
look at it, I've always look at it like, "Why do I want to retire?" Because I
don't work, in an essence, and, you know, you're doing something that you love
and there's not one day of work. It's, it's, uh, it's what you want to do when
you wake up in the morning. It's not like, "Oh, gee, I have to go to the office"
or you know, I don't think about that, I just want to get to the office.
And sometimes you have to stop it, because you could stay there too
00:57:00long and, and--and it's not just office for me, it's, it's, uh, tasting, it's
development, it's things like this. It's always different, it's always exciting,
so, I don't know about retirement, and I get that question a lot, but I just
don't feel like I work. And it's, it--I'm sure Mark's listening to this now and
saying, "Gee, I knew that he didn't work at all," just, just in, in jest, but
it--I don't work. Um, I enjoy what I do, and I have fun at what I'm doing. As
long as I do that, I don't plan to retire.
HAY: What do you want, um, future master blenders to say about you? What do you
want your legacy to be? What do you imagine it might be?
MAYVILLE: I would say it's the same as what Art gave me, and it's, um, the
knowledge and the confidence to do this and to make, you know, great
00:58:00whiskies and different products that are blended. I mean, if I can, I've--I
feel--I feel a lot of my job now is to do exactly what you're saying is, is help
the succession of this company for the future and train the future blenders, and
which we're doing, on becoming me. And that, I think that's my primary goal,
now, is because I won't be around forever, unfortunately. Um, but for the
succession and where we're going as a company, I need to train those people, so
that's one of my top priorities that I work on every day.
HAY: So you like your business?
MAYVILLE: Love it. I wouldn't be here if I didn't.
HAY: Great. Well, this has been an enjoyable interview. Thank you--
MAYVILLE: Well, thank you.
HAY: --so much.
MAYVILLE: My pleasure. That's a wrap.
HAY: Yeah, cut?
MAYVILLE: Cut.
[End of interview.]
