Interview with Renee Shaw, December 14, 2018

BAYÈ: This is Betty Bayè. And today is December 14th, 2018. We are in Lexington, Kentucky. This is the Kentucky Civil Rights Hall of Fame Oral History Project in partnership with the University of Kentucky Office of Community Engagement,the Louis B. Nunn Center for Oral History, University of Kentucky Libraries and the Kentucky Commission on Human Rights. And today, we're interviewing Renee Michelle --(Shaw laughs)-- Shaw, a mainstay here in Kentucky,--

SHAW: ----------?--

BAYÈ: --and public television and public broadcasting. And welcome to this interview, Renee. And we want to find out. We're going to turn the tables --(Shaw laughs)--on you because you're always interviewing people.--

SHAW: --Well.--

BAYÈ: --So this is about you today.

SHAW: --And I couldn't think of a better person to be interviewed by--

BAYÈ: --Oh--

SHAW: --than Betty Bayè.

BAYÈ: --Oh, thank you. --(Shaw laughs)--Well Renee, you know. Let's go back.

SHAW: --Um-hm--

BAYÈ: --We know you from seeing your face on KET [Kentucky Educational Television] here in Kentucky. --(Shaw nods affirmatively)--Tell us a little bit about, a little bit about what you do at KET.

SHAW: Sure.

BAYÈ: And then I'm going to go back and ask you--your other backstory.

SHAW: Sure. Sure. So I've been a KET. It'll be twenty-two years and January 6th of 2019. I came right after I finished my master's degree, and they were looking for somebody who could do legislative coverage and other public policy reporting. And--it was God's timing. Uh, there was somebody who was leaving to go to C-SPAN [Cable-Satellite Public Affairs Network], and the vacancy was there. And I was able to, to fill it. And I didn't think I'd be here this long. I have to admit. Probably everybody says that they're a transplant. Thought, you know, two, five years, max. But once you're two months and you're pretty much you know, you're a lifer at that point. But public broadcasting and now, Betty, --on after having more than two decades of service with KET, now I 00:02:00realize the value of it. When I was twenty-four, I thought, Okay well, this is nice, but I might rather be in Nashville or a larger market. But looking back to where we are, where I've come from and the things I've been able to do, I couldn't be happier with the work I've been able to accomplish, covering the legislature. You know, one of the few African-Americans, let alone, there's been no black woman who's done that in a long time. Uh, talking to governors and state lawmakers and other policy heads and, uh and having a platform to do that where, you know, we're not going to do ambush, gotcha journalism. But we do ask tough questions. And we do have a platform to really take deep dives into all kinds of issues. And I've been allowed to do that as well as,--I said, the legislative coverage and policy discussions are my heart, but "Connections", which is my conversation program, which I call the intersection of politics, people and programs. Here's what it means to you. Here are the people 00:03:00who are making a difference. Here are the real movers and shakers who are behind the scenes, who are the unsung heroes, who are making things happen. And having both of those types of venues, whether it's "Connections", the legislative coverage and other things. It really does help the whole Renee Shaw. That way, I don't feel like I'm having a parse out. Part of me to be in this space and the other part to be in that. Somehow I've been able to manage to bring the whole part of me together. And that's been a tremendous blessing.

BAYÈ: Well, how long have you been doing "Connections"?

SHAW: So "Connections" debuted and the fall of twenty 0-nine.

BAYÈ: Um -hm

SHAW: So, yes. Is that right? --(laughs)--No twenty 0-five. I'm sorry.--

BAYÈ: --Okay.--

SHAW: --It debuted in the year twenty 0-five, 2005. Uh, the first guest was Stedman Graham.

BAYÈ: Oh-- the ----------?-- colored people--

SHAW: --the beau of Oprah Winfrey.

BAYÈ: Oh, Stedman.Yes.--

SHAW: --Stedman Graham.--

BAYÈ: --Yes. Uh-hm.--

SHAW: --And uh,Phil Wilkins, who was another entrepreneur who had a McDonald's chain. So I kind of had this entrepreneur show--

BAYÈ: --Um -hm--

SHAW: --because I can only get--they only said "You can only get five minutes with Stedman." Well, I knew that's what his handler said. Right? I knew, though, if I got him in the room and we just talked and not about Oprah,--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --but about him.

BAYÈ: --Yes.--

SHAW: --It's like, you know, I probably could have gotten the whole half hour,

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --but we were ten minutes and I thought, I want to keep going. You know? And, so we got about eighteen minutes from him. And it was a lovely conversation, both before we started the tape rolling and even after--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --he couldn't have been more gracious. And, and so since then, the show started off being monthly. And then after a year, we went twice a month and then we became weekly within a couple of years.

BAYÈ: Did you conceive that show?--

SHAW: --Yes.--

BAYÈ: --How did you come up with that idea?

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively)-- We had had a discussion about the fact that there was a dearth of minority affairs programming on KET. It just wasn't there. Uh, and that there needed to be a deliberate intentionality about telling, the other side of Kentucky's story. It's not that they weren't included in our, our signature human, uh relations or, or human interest program, 00:05:00"Kentucky Life", but really having these people constantly, not just in February--

BAYÈ: --Yes. --(laughs)--

SHAW: --but throughout the year.--

BAYÈ: --Yes.--

SHAW: --You know, talking about these issues-- and not, you know,-- and the way I approached "Connections" was--it wasn't just going to be about African-Americans. It was going to be about all of these groups, women, uh different uh sexual orientations, and the white allies. And I take it a step further, they're not just allies, but the accomplices in the work to advance the cause of civil rights. You know uh, we had Kathryn Edin on a couple of years ago who wrote a book about can you live off $2 a day?--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm.--

SHAW: --And she's a Princeton sociologist who talked and, and wrote about women with four kids who would go once or twice a week to donate plasma, to be able just to buy, you know, dinner for that night. I mean, and to contextualize that in a way where uh, if you had a heart, it was certainly pricked.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm.--

SHAW: --And, and so this is a caucasian woman who did all this 00:06:00research and who brought this to bear. And when she was in Kentucky, I said, "I've got to have her." --

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm.--

SHAW: --And she really told the story, not just in terms of statistics, because, you know, sociologists know how to do stats. Right?--

BAYÈ: --Right. Yes, they do.--

SHAW: --But it was the human piece of it that she really connected. That these--all of these pieces of poverty, from education to housing to redlining, that all of that comes into place. And that's how we perpetuate these deep states of poverty. And I had a --my, my pastor, who was the Reverend Dr. C. B. Aikens of First Baptist Church Bracktown.

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm.--

SHAW: --He defined for me the other day, poverty. And he says, "You know, there is a new definition that I've come across for poverty." And I said, "What is it?" He said, "It's the lack of options.--

BAYÈ: --Hmm--

SHAW: --It's the lack of choices." You know. I've also heard poverty being described as poverty in spirit is worse than poverty of income. Right. When you have no other options or choices. That's poverty. And so she took it from, Dr. Kathryn Edin, in terms of financial poverty. But there's also--I'm 00:07:00going to go back and reread that book with fresh eyes on the poverty of spirit--

BAYÈ: --Hmm----

SHAW: --and the poverty of feeling. I have no other options before me.

BAYÈ: Well do you feel, Renee, as a woman and as a black woman,

SHAW: --Uh-hm.--

BAYÈ: --that a lot of people could have done that interview?

SHAW: Oh, sure. --(laughs)--

BAYÈ: Do you feel that because of who you are.--

SHAW: --Uh-hm.--

BAYÈ: --your gender,--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --your race,--

SHAW: --Yes.--

BAYÈ: --you ask different kinds of questions

SHAW: --Uh-hm --(nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --that don't get at--it doesn't mean that other people are not good reporters,

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively)-- Right.--

BAYÈ: --or researchers. But what do you feel like--that gives you in terms of framing a question or asking a question?

SHAW: That's a wonderful question, Betty. And not only am I those things, but I also came from a working class family. I'm also a first generation college graduate

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --in my family. There's a lot of firsts uh, for me--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --and onlys for me. I'm an only child. Uh, so I was always kind of used to being the misfit, being the odd person out, figuring out a way. How 00:08:00do I navigate my--and I grew up in very rural Tennessee where, you know, it was a very homogenous, white, homogenous community. And I had to teach them how to treat me. Right? And my mother was one of the first African-Americans to integrate high school, uh back in the midsixties. And so some of that spirit about how you negotiate your very presence to be in these spaces and perhaps now I'll look back on it, I wondered how come I'd been an only child? Now I know. So my parents could just, could just shape, uh how I would perceive my place in the world, but didn't look like what I immediately saw.

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --So I have always been able to navigate my speech. Right? Uh, maybe even my presence. The way I try to ask a question, you know, and you know this, spend a lot of time crafting the question. Because, one, I have to be concerned that they may take it wrong, because it's coming from a black woman.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --Okay. So I tried to interpret, How is this going to sound if I was in a different skin, if I had a different gender? And then I reevaluate and I soften. It might be a tough question, but I've rewritten it a lot of times and rehearsed it so that it sounds less offensive. It's the W.E.B. Du Bois--it's that double consciousness.

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --And I've lived that my whole life. Right?--

BAYÈ: --And in some sense, when you talk about the speech, being bilingual.--

SHAW: --Right. Right.--

BAYÈ: --The way you talk the way you understand--

SHAW: --Yeah. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --how you have to talk. And it's interesting because you sort of intersect some--with-- when we interviewed Merlene--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --Davis, who was at the Herald Leader.

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --And you all no doubt have crossed and stuff.

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively) Oh absolutely.--

BAYÈ: --But that whole idea of navigating space.

SHAW: Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --You know.--

SHAW: --And your presence within it.

BAYÈ: Yes.

SHAW: You know, when I went to the capital in 1997--course I'm intimidated as all get out just by the building itself. I, I've always loved architecture.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --And so driving up as a twenty-something year old, Capitol Avenue and seeing that building. I've seen it a thousand times. But to know that this is now going to be where you're at--this is your house, and more ways than one. And, you know, at that time, I had no idea I'd be here for twenty-something years. But I walked into that marble clad building. I felt all of this history and seeing the Jefferson Davis statue. I mean, you're reminded about where your place is supposed to be. And when I looked around and didn't see anyone like me. Uh, very few staff at the time were of color. Uh, no people in the press corps of color. I mean, but I--you know,-- God said, But babydoll, you were built for this. And you will teach them how to respect you. Do your job with integrity. Know that at any time somebody is watching you. And it doesn't matter if somebody is--gets in your face, know that I have gone before you and my spirit is within you. And I have got your back. And so with all of that, you 00:11:00will stand firm. And so I've had some things said to me that were unpleasant.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --But, you know, I didn't flinch, Miss Betty, inside, because I just knew. You know, I'm not going to dignify your disparaging remarks or your nuance. Usually it's nuance.--

BAYÈ: --Nuance. Yes.--

SHAW: --It's not overt. It's nuance. Uh and, and you will eventually learn that you--well, you already know you can't go there with me. --

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --And--

BAYÈ: --Well, we saw a little bit of that --(Shaw laughs)-- in the interview at the White House.

SHAW: Uh-hm.

BAYÈ: And the President's handling of Nancy Pelosi.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: This woman has been in Congress for years.

SHAW: --Yeah--

BAYÈ: --And it was so dismissive of her as a woman.

SHAW: --Right. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --And she said, No.

SHAW: Yeah.

BAYÈ: And so in your way, you said, No.

SHAW: Right. Without saying--

BAYÈ: --yeah.--

SHAW: --No.

BAYÈ: No. Yes.

SHAW: And I think, and I think all women, particularly in those male dominated, testosterone filled environments--

BAYÈ: --Oof.--

SHAW: --that are just so power, uh oriented. You know, all women have 00:12:00learned to navigate. But I do believe with each other identifying characteristic that is a marginalized (laughs) characteristic, you certainly have to just up your ante on, on how you, uh approach. And I, I had an interesting thing said to me the other day. Uh, someone said, you know, Renee's been doing this for twenty-something years and there are people who like her who shouldn't.

BAYÈ: Oh.

SHAW: There are people who respect her who shouldn't. And at first I flinched, like what a--and then I realized what she meant. There are people who they assume they know my politics, even though I've never made that known,and I don't talk about that. That's no one's business. But just because of who I am would automatically think, Oh, I have nothing that I want to talk to her about. But then when they sit down, --you know, and I do believe in the power of conversation. I do believe in the power of two people connecting eyeball to eyeball like we're doing right now. And I believe that we could be on the opposite ends of the political spectrum, religious spectrum, whatever 00:13:00it is, and we could find common ground. And that's how--because that's how I approach my whole life, getting through high school, being the only one like me, who graduated in my class. All of that training, all of that experience, as hard as it was, was just the training ground for me to be in this space. And not just kind of mill around with this, you know, obscurity, but to have some recognition.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --And, you know, to God be the glory for that.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --That all of that was preparation on, on how I needed to act. And I don't feel like--so the other part of that is, do you--I get asked, "Do you feel like that you have to capitulate part of yourself, that you can't be your full self?" Well, I can't give my opinion, because that's not my role. As a journalist at this particular juncture, you know, I'm not an editorial writer. --(Bayè laughs)--Right? So I restrain a lot of that. But how I get at what I want to know is I phrased that question in a way, that you know, is on, is on the,--it's on the cusp of being editorial.

BAYÈ: Right.

SHAW: Right? Uh, because I'm trying to get what my experience has taught me about what I want you to, to respond to.

BAYÈ: And, and you know, you, you, you took me there. --(Shaw laughs)-- Let's let's go back to Tennessee.

SHAW: OK. Yes.

BAYÈ: Let's talk about--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --because you had preparation for that.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: But that was preparation for the world.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: Let us know about your mother and your father--

SHAW: --Sure.--

BAYÈ: --you know, your family.--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --what --you know, the only black kid. Tell us a little bit about where you're from--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --and how that shaped--

SHAW: --Right. --(nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --the woman that you are now.

SHAW: Wow. Well, 1972 is my birth year. Uh, the only child to Emma Jene and Ferrell Martin Shaw. My mother herself was an only child. Um, my father had a couple of siblings. My father and my mother lived in uh, poverty that I would not understand. You know, dirt floors, uh pot bellied stoves when they walk into the schoolhouse, that was a two room schoolhouse. Uh, my father was a foreman at a gas company. Mother stayed home with me for the first she would 00:15:00occasionally pick up chores to do,--

BAYÈ: --And this is in Tennessee?--

SHAW: This is in Tennessee, --Portland, Tennessee, which is right off the uh,--if you take 65 [Interstate 65] south, Franklin, Simpson County, the next--the first Tennessee town you come to, legitimate Tennessee town, is Portland. Population at that time, four thousand and some change. Mostly white. Um, the black people over --that were there, we were all related. My mother's side of the family, the Coakley side. Coakley's were the ones who settled there. And there was even a road that was named after my late grandmother shortly before she passed, who had gained prominence in the community for being the Portland chef and cook. She cooked for the Chamber of Commerce, Rotary Club, Lions Club, people's weddings, whatever. Mother worked as a seamstress in a factory. And mother was a very good writer. And my parents are still living. Thank God they're both still living.--

BAYÈ: --Blessed.--

SHAW: --Um, which is a--I mean, I call them every day. We talk, every day. And Mother is a good writer. And I remember when whatever grade it 00:16:00is, you learn how to diagram sentences. My mother just aced that for me. I was like, I can't get this. And she's like, Oh, Honey, this is how you do it. And I realized that Mother didn't have the opportunity. That's when I realized, Betty, the difference between,-- you know, these were smart people, but living in rural Tennessee, where you just didn't know what your options were. You were in--they were in poverty in more ways than one. You know, but they managed to build a very middle-class life. I, I didn't want for anything. Uh, and I, I will probably attest to being a little spoiled. But I also learned a hard work ethic. So I was tutoring kids. And, you know, in the kitchen table at nine and ten years old. I was working at a restaurant up--against my dad's best wishes, uh at age sixteen, because I wanted to actually, you know, I wanted to do that kind of work. Um and so I've always been taught that you get where you need 00:17:00to go by hard work. You don't--you're not always going to be the smartest. And I knew I wasn't the smartest, but nobody was going to outwork me. And I was going to do whatever I had to do to get to the next step. And my father, you know who, who-- they all-- both of them are high school graduates. He was hard on me academically. Get this. Get this. And I'm so glad that he did. And I will tell you that at a very young age, I knew that this is what I wanted to do. Because as the only child, one, there were other kids in the neighborhood-- and course where we lived, we had family nearby. So I had a cousin who was seven years older and we were playmates. But I also enjoyed my alone time and I still do. --(Both laugh)--And so I would retreat to my room and turn on the television. Mom and I would watch "Sesame Street." We were PBS [Public Broadcasting Service] kid--uh, family from the very beginning. And Mom would practice my letters and my numbers and talk about the people that we saw on television. There was a lot more diversity on "Sesame Street' than there was in my neighborhood.--

BAYÈ: --Every --um-hm.--

SHAW: --You know, what I'm saying? And so Mom's like, This is the 00:18:00world beyond where we live. And I remember thinking when I would watch the news because it was a family event every night, that we would watch the news together. And, you know, there were a couple of African-American, uh anchor reporters in Nashville at the time, but I didn't see very many, not like you do today in that market. Nashville has come a long way in embracing that.--

BAYÈ: --(laughs)-- Did you see Oprah?

SHAW: No, I didn't. But Oprah did work at that Nashville television station.--(Bayè laughs)-- I'll give you an aside. Bill Goodman, with whom I worked for twenty years before he moved to the Humanities Council, was her first boss. Wow. So they worked together quite a bit. Now, he can't just give her a call and say it, Oprah, what you're doing? But uh,(Bayè laughs) they certainly know each other. And so I remember thinking, I could do that. And so my mother bought me this little pretend typewriter. And I would pretend as I was watching the news that I was reporting on the news and I would you know take out the fake paper. And I would gather my stuffed animals and dolls,and then I would read to them what I thought I had interpreted as the news and practice 00:19:00delivering the news. So that was like at five or six. And then--so one day I may write a butch,--a book called Know Your Easter Speech, because church was the training ground for me. We had a very small church that was mostly my family members at the time. You know, great uncles were the deacons and they ran the church, the church clerk, the church, everything.--(Bayè laughs)-- That's what they did. And I remember that my mother put a lot of emphasis--after she tried singing lessons on me, and that went nowhere.--(Bayè laughs)-- Piano lessons went nowhere. She's like, I know this kid's got a talent. (both laugh I just don't know what it is. So it was like, I think she can talk. So there was another uh, woman, Alice Smith and my neighborhood, no relative, who was an educator. And she took me under her wing and she got me involved in debutante stuff and all of this societal stuff and said, "I want you to teach Sunday school. I want you to practice reading and practice doing speeches out loud, and know, your Easter speech by heart," every time. And I think 00:20:00constantly practicing presence, delivery, connection, in the church also help groom me. And I tell kids that, who take for granted the people they have in their community. You know, living three doors down from an educator who, who is just chomping at the bit for somebody to say, "You know, would you mind spending some time with me?"

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --because they want to spend time with you. And I look back on Miss Alice and think, I wouldn't have been able to do it without her either, or Miss Gwendolyn, who was my--really my cousin but I called her aunt. You know how that works.

BAYÈ: Yes.

SHAW: who took a big interest in me and has said, "You know, Let's expose her to these things." We know that exposure to opportunities helps shrink that achievement gap because many people just, you know, go to the Children's Museum and the History Museum every weekend. They do those types of things. But many of our children of color, that's not an option.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --So, so a poverty of thinking, a poverty of exposure. You 00:21:00know, I think without even saying those words, my parents recognized, you know, I think this kid's got some potential. And let's try to nurture that. We necessarily don't know how. But we're gonna try to find a village--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --to help her.

BAYÈ: And that's one of the issues that people make about the poverty today.

SHAW: Yeah.

BAYÈ: Is the isolation.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: That the poor people--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --poor black people. The teacher doesn't live down the street--

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively)-- That's right. There you go.--

BAYÈ: --you know, the doctor doesn't live around the corner. --(Shaw nods affirmatively)-- And I, I, you know, coming to Louisville and living next door to Mae Street Kidd.--

SHAW: --Right. Right.--

BAYÈ: --You know, I got the--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --I got the story. But--so that is what I think the churches try to recreate--

SHAW: --Uh-hm--

BAYÈ: --in some way without those people being the presence that you saw every day.

SHAW: (nods affirmatively) Right.

BAYÈ: So you still, --even though you're born in the seventies, you still had the benefit--

SHAW: --Uh-hm--

BAYÈ: --of old-time black living.--

SHAW: --Yeah. Oh sure.--

BAYÈ: --When we were segregated--

SHAW: --Goodness--

BAYÈ: --and you couldn't live other places.

SHAW: That's exactly right. And, you know, and from a hunting family,--I mean, they--whatever they they killed or they grew.

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: You know, that's just how it was. And um, so I, I look now at age forty-six, and I think about what a blessing it was, not the curse that I thought it was, when I felt like I didn't have friends or I wished that I looked differently or whatever, that, you know, that I fit in with the white crowd. You know, now I realize that I was being set apart and, and I--I'm very grateful for that. --

BAYÈ: --Love that word, set apart.--

SHAW: Don't make me cry. (laughs) I was being set apart.

BAYÈ: Set apart. And we talk about that a lot too, being apart.

SHAW: Being set apart. And, and, and, and so that you can also focus.--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --You know, sometimes when you know, as --when we-- in the Christian community, you know, we were to be a peculiar people. Right? To be set apart doesn't mean that you're, you know,--

BAYÈ: --Better than--.

SHAW: --some hermit or--

BAYÈ: --Yeah. Uh-hm--

SHAW: --you know, it doesn't mean those--It means that you have a--to me, an intense focus. There is a life goal, you know, and I, I have these things written on my refrigerator. And I'm like, I don't want to die with a whole tank or a half a tank or quarter tank. I want to die here on empty. You know,--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --I, I want to leave it all out. And I believe, you know, this is where I am now. But, you know, if I've got forty more years or twenty more years or ten more years, you know, God's going to say um, You did what you were called--

BAYÈ: --Well done.--

SHAW: --to do. Well done.--

BAYÈ: --Well done daughter. Well done.--

SHAW: --Thy good and faithful servant.--

BAYÈ: --Yes. Yes.

SHAW: --You know? And so, and whatever that is, it doesn't mean that your name's in all these lights. It just means that,--you know, when I go to a little school here in town and interact with those little kids at Booker T Washington Elementary on a Friday, and sometimes I see that poverty of spirit and that poverty of not quite sure of my options.You know. But then they light up when somebody says, "Scholar, you are brilliant. Now, right now, you're 00:24:00not acting it, but inside that mind is a genius. Inside that mind is somebody--is, is a way of thinking that no one else has. And that's what I want you to give me." And that kid's face turns like, Wow. She believes in me. And what I was the beneficiary of is that somebody, not just my parents, but there was a, a play aunt and a real aunt that believed in me. And hearing that, that you are worth it, that uh, you can do it before that became a presidential catchphrase--

BAYÈ: --Uh-hm--

SHAW: --is what got me there. Because there were plenty of times when I felt like, this is over my head. the--i.e. the first time I work--or I walked in the state capital, you know. But you stick to it knowing that you were equipped and what you're not equipped to do, God will equip you to do.

BAYÈ: Well, you know, we talk a lot, Joanna and I, about women on the front line. And--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --uh, we also have interviewed your pastor's wife,--

SHAW: --Uh-Huh. Yes.--

BAYÈ: --Roz [Roszalyn] Akins. --

SHAW: --Absolutely.--

BAYÈ: --And Roz talks about her school and some of what you were saying --(Shaw nods affirmatively)-- echoes--

SHAW: --Uh-Huh.--

BAYÈ: --what Roz was saying to us--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --in interview about that whole thing of just putting into these kids.--

SHAW: --Yeah--

BAYÈ: You know, wearing jackets and wearing ties--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --and, you know, teaching them uh, --(Shaw nods affirmatively)-- the way, --giving them the options.--

SHAW: --Um-hm. That's right.--

BAYÈ: --you know. So I guess you and she might have had conversations.

SHAW: --(laughs) Well, we didn't talk about that. But of course, she's my pastor's wife.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --I'd--I work with Roz on occasion.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --And, you know, she's not shy to ask for help. (laughs)

BAYÈ: No. She's not. Yeah we learned that.

SHAW: But look at the success that some--and she's somebody who I've interviewed several times, not just because, you know, Bracktown is my, my church home. Uh, but because of the two major tenets of that church has been salvation and education, because nobody can take away either one of those things from you.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: And so that's what that church is about. And that's what drew me to that church, was that one, you preach the gospel, but then you also 00:26:00empower the people to know that, you know, maybe the preacher has not gotten it right, and you should be able to read the Bible, interpret it for yourself. And the only way you do that is to educate yourself on a daily basis. But you also show people who don't--who have that poverty or spirit, You know what you're worth a nice blue jacket with a crest that says Carter G. and a tie. And you're also worth us really putting the fear of God in you if you don't have the day of-- the word of the day memorized. Right? It's not just about giving you the things that make you feel good. It's about requiring you to press toward the knowledge that makes you excellent. I mean, that's, that's a mantra that I have adopted for myself is, I do excellence. I am excellence.--

BAYÈ: --Excellent--

SHAW: --Now, I don't always feel that way. And I can go back and look at shows in interviews where I'm like, That wasn't so excellent. But at the next time I do it, it's got to be better than the last time.--

BAYÈ: -- Every time you learn.--

SHAW: --You know, you always probably said this too, The last column 00:27:00I write had to --it had to be the best column.

BAYÈ: Well, you know, I didn't even know it was gonna be my last column. But --(both laugh)--

SHAW: --That's true.--

BAYÈ: --(laughs) You know?

SHAW: --You know but you always want--

BAYÈ: --Yeah right.--

SHAW: --everything--

BAYÈ: --Everything in it.--

SHAW: --into it.

BAYÈ: And represent.

SHAW: And represent. Because you are--and it's like, you know, I had a big debate. We don't call them debates at KET, but a big forum with the six congressional district candidates. And I carried the weight of being African-American and a woman and middle aged and all of these identities with me. As if, you're not just doing this for you or for KET. You're doing it for--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --all these people and for the little young girl who's sitting on Sixth Street who you met at a gymnasium, who's also wondering if she can. You've got to show her that,--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --yes, you can, because I am doing it. And so you carry that weight. And some people would say, "Well, that's too much. That's a burden." No, that's a blessing.

BAYÈ: And that's, and that's what I think becomes important.

SHAW: Yeah.

BAYÈ: Is making the distinction between being a burden--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --and being a blessing.--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --And being gifted. Because there are people, African-Americans, who feel like it's a burden, and they will tell you, "Well, you know, I'm just a journalist.--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --I'm not black." So they shed every--

SHAW: --Yeah.Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --you know, I'm not a woman. I'm just,--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --I'm just doing this as if

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --those parts of yourself, like you said, leaving those parts at the door.

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --But you bring all of that.

SHAW: Yeah. And, and you don't have to wear a shirt that says, I'm a black woman.--

BAYÈ: --Right.--

SHAW: --People can figure that out.--

BAYÈ: --Yeah. They can see. (laughs)--

SHAW: -- You know like, hello. Before you say "Hello." You know, you don't have to do all that.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.--

SHAW: --But you can--but the way--I mean, I've watched people try to watch how I'm thinking. Right? Because, you know, when they're talking, I'm thinking. And I'm thinking it in the terms of my frame of reference, which is my identity, my faith, my experiences. All of that comes into play. There is no such thing as an unbiased person. We all carry our biases. That's just how it is. And 00:29:00the--so as a journalist you have to recognize, I have all this baggage just like everybody else.--

BAYÈ: --(in unison with Shaw)-- everybody else.--

SHAW: --But when I'm writing this or I'm covering this, you know, I do have to make an intentional attempt at --and-- to just tell the story. Tell the facts.

BAYÈ: And that's where the training comes in.

SHAW: That's where the training comes (laughs)--

BAYÈ: --It's not like everybody who has a computer is a journalist.

SHAW: --That's exactly right.--

BAYÈ: --You know. (laughs)--

SHAW: --Or an iphone makes a them videographer or a storyteller--

BAYÈ: --Makes them-- yeah. Exactly.--

SHAW: --or a, a filmmaker. I mean that and I--you know, we can talk all day about--

BAYÈ: --Well tell--

SHAW: --just how that piece.--(laughs)--

BAYÈ: --Well tell me this, Renee. Tell me how this little girl, this only child--

SHAW: --Right--

BAYÈ: --this is slightly spoiled--(Shaw laughs)--but Miss Alice's child and your momma's child and your church's child--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --how do you get to Western Kentucky University? Tell me how that works.

SHAW: Sure. So Western was very close to home, about thirty-five minutes. I had looked at Vanderbilt. In fact, my principal at my high school had pushed Vanderbilt as an option.--

BAYÈ: --Which is in Nashville.

SHAW: --Which is in Nashville, and said, "Oh. If you want to do journalism, you can still do it there." Well, the price was just astronomical. Now, 00:30:00my parents were willing to say, "If this is what you want." But as an only child, you're also a parent pleaser. And I didn't want to put my parents in debt paying for an education that may or may not pay off, when Western was really just as good in that area.--

BAYÈ: --And have an excellent journalism--

SHAW: --and have an excellent journalism department. But, you know, it's Vanderbilt, right? And so I toyed with it and then thought a Western was throwing some money, you know, and there was the incentive--I don't know if they still call it that. The incentive grant, which allowed kids who live within one hundred miles of the university to come in on in-state tuition as opposed to out-of-state tuition. So by then you get some minority scholarships. I got work-study. I was a hustler. So first of all I'm a hustler. --(Bayè laughs)--I mean. So after being on campus for a couple of years, I found a way to get a couple of jobs. And then I worked a couple of off campus jobs. Even, even though I really didn't have to. It was just about practicing work because I knew I wasn't always gonna be in school. And so then when I finished Western 00:31:00and, and, and the college has been tremendous--was tremendous to me and still is. I'm on an advisory committee down there for the communications department. Uh, I send them money. Uh uh, I'm really tight with that community and, and still try to maintain those connections. Western had offered me--when I finished my master's degree, they said, You know what, we'll pay for a phd. if you come back. Right? One of those forgiveness loans.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --If you come back and teach for five years. I was twenty four. I had been in school for all of those years and I thought, I'm ready to go do and see how this works. And I-- but I haven't completely, you know,--

BAYÈ: --Given up on the idea. Right--

SHAW: --closed the door on the idea of maybe doing that much, much later in life. But uh, I was very blessed at Western. And at the time, of course, the university is much larger than it is now, but I will tell you a key to how I chose political science and government--or political science and journalism. My first African-American instructor, professor--well, educator, because 00:32:00I don't have any black teachers growing up, was Dr. Saundra Ardrey, someone who I need to submit to the (laughs)--

BAYÈ: --Hall of Fame? (laughs)--

SHAW: --Civil Rights Hall of Fame. This professor uh, just a spitfire African-American who expected a lot of you, but she took us everywhere, to the DuSable Museum in Chicago.--

BAYÈ: --Oh Chicago.--

SHAW: --She took us to Atlanta. She took us to Bill Clinton's '93 inauguration. She believed in that premise of exposure, is as much of an educational tool as reading the book. Need to read the book, but you also need to be exposed. And it was that first semester interaction with her, I declared government as my, as my second major. Because I said, My gosh, if the world is like you with you know, with you know, with this mind about what political science and civic engagement should be. You know, and she was more on the liberal side, which the 00:33:00community I had grown up in was not like that. So she was causing me to even think beyond my current imagination. And I just thought, Oh, I'm in heaven. And so I declared government along with my journalism. It was broadcast journalism and the rest was history. And I worked on--at public broadcasting. I knew very early on that public broadcasting was where I wanted to be, because I'd grown up on it. Now, I dabbled a little bit in commercial, but I didn't like the idea of constantly having to go to car accidents--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm. Fires. Um-hm.--

SHAW: --and fires.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --You know, I wanted to talk about, you know, um, race relations, immigration, uh, education and, you know,--

BAYÈ: --And you wanted to do a piece that might last for five minutes or ten minutes.--

SHAW: --Oh sure. I mean, Western was so great to me and the public radio station, they let me produce a thirty minute documentary. I wish I knew the name, and I wish I had the tape. But it was about affirmative action. And I interviewed Ellis Cose,

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --who had written the book about the privilege--

BAYÈ: --The Rage of the Privileged Class (laughs)--

SHAW: --The Rage of the Privileged Class. Interviewed him. And that won a national SPJ [Society of Professional Journalists] Award, Mark of Excellence. And I think I was one of the first students to get that award at Western. But they allowed me to take that time, thirty minutes. I mean, I'm a fresh kid. I'm a greenhorn.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Right? I mean, and they're like,You know you can do this. And I had a news director in Dan Modlin, assistant news director in Jeanine Howard Cherry, who would pick apart because they could see the potential. They're like, But if you just did this, that'd take it up a notch. And even though they had a newscast two minutes from when they're teaching me, they're like, Okay, we got time. You got to be on the air in two minutes. No, this is important. And that's where I learn, take the time, even when you've got to be on the air in two minutes. Answer the question for, for the person who's just trying to get it right.

BAYÈ: And the fact that somebody at, at Ellis who is a friend.--

SHAW: --Oh yeah.--

BAYÈ: --friend of mine.--

SHAW: --Okay. So Okay.--

BAYÈ: --uh, would even take the time with a student.--

SHAW: --Oh sure. I mean was nineteen, twenty.--

BAYÈ: --and that's how you presented yourself.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: You know, if you seem serious--

SHAW: --Oh, yeah.--

BAYÈ: --even the president will sit down with a (Shaw laughs) student and say, Okay.

SHAW: Yes. Yes. That's right.--

BAYÈ: --You know, you weren't playing around.

SHAW: I was not playing around.

BAYÈ: And what did you get your masters in?

SHAW: My masters is in corporate communications,--

BAYÈ: --Okay.--

SHAW: --which meant that--so at the time, Western was try--still trying to say, If you go into this news business, you're gonna be an old lady really fast. You know, we'll, we'll, we'll let you formulate your own kind of program if you stay here two more years and get your masters. And you can still dabble in journalism and broadcasting. So I still worked for Western's Public Television and radio and a Fox [Fox Broadcasting Company] affiliate and was a teaching assistant. I taught speech classes. And that was kind of breaking the rules. You weren't supposed to do all those things, but I'm like, I'm a hustler. I'm gonna make this happen. And so I did get like Graduate Student of the Year just because, you know,--I actually put more effort into my outside endeavors than I did the academic ones. But, it allowed me--they wanted me to look at the--the opportunities. So if you get tired of news, maybe you want to be a 00:36:00consultant. Maybe you want to get your Ed.D [Educationis Doctor] and then you can do--

BAYÈ: --Education. Yeah.--

SHAW: --educational leadership and those types of it. That's what I'm saying,--like these people really--I have been blessed, Betty, to have people who invested in me. I can't overemphasize, uh the grace that I've been given. You know, vertically and horizontally.--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --And uh, and, you know, I don't take that for granted that--and these were people who were very different from me. Who--but I just worked, and I would just talk to them. And, you know, I mean, it was about--it's not always about the professor uh, you know, engaging the student. Sometimes a student has to engage the professor.--

BAYÈ: --to engage the professor. Yes.--

SHAW: --To tell them, I'm the real deal here. I'm trying to just make it, you know. And I haven't quite figured out what my place is, but I did. And and, and I hadn't even looked for a job when I was doing my comprehensive examinations to get my master's degree. And everybody's asking me, "Renee, you know, 00:37:00what are you going to do now?" I'm like, I really don't know. And then I was like, but it's something--something's going to happen. And like two or three days after that, after I told someone that I get this call and it's actually the GM [General Manager] of where I was working in public radio said, "You know, um Ginnny [ Virginia Gaines] Fox at KET, is looking for somebody to be a public policy reporter. And I've put your name in for that. I recommended you. I can't give you a full time job, but we think-- I think you'd be great for KET." And Ginny said, "Well send her on." I mean, that's a God thing.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: And uh, I came. I, I didn't think the interview went that well. I--you know, I met all--

BAYÈ: --Why? (laughs)--

SHAW: --these different people. Well, I was so nervous. And um, I don't know, just some of the interaction. You know, these were very seasoned people. It was Bill who-- Bill Goodman, who couldn't have been nicer. And the senior producer, Deidre Clarke. And of course, I met the CEO [Cheif Executive Officer] and the deputy director who at that time was Donna Moore, who was the programing--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --and production person and the other production director. And I don't know, I just--I didn't feel like I didn't get the job, but I, I felt like I probably didn't do the best interview. But they called. And uh, right after Christmas, I moved up here.

BAYÈ: Well, what is interesting in your interview and it's really important, is that you called the names--

SHAW: --Yes.--

BAYÈ: --Of these people--

SHAW: --Um-hm. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --that, you know, you honor the people

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively) Oh absolutely.--

BAYÈ: --who gave you a shot. And so in your long career here, you have interviewed senators,--

SHAW: --Um-hm. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --governors, you know, all kinds of people.

SHAW: Um-hm.

BAYÈ: Who are your heroes? I mean, who did you--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --interview or meet that just--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --just stamped something on your soul--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --and your spirit?

SHAW: Well, I'll mention a few names. Uh, Georgia Davis Powers. Uh, she was one of my second interviews for "Connections". We did it at the Bomhard 00:39:00Theater at the Kentucky Center for the Arts in September or October of twenty 0-five. And from there, I had read, you know, I Shared the Dream. I mean, I had parsed that book apart and read so much about her. But when I got on stage with her, I felt like she was going to be my political godmother. Like this is somebody that I could call when I had a question about something or--and that's what she became. I mean, on that stage, she was very forthcoming about what she shared in the book. And what I liked about her was that she owned her mistakes, but she didn't let her mistakes define her. And there was redemption for her, which I've always loved that story of the phoenix rising.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --And she became someone that I developed a close relationship with. And I was honored to be asked by her family and close associate, Raoul Cunningham, when she lie in state at the state capital to emcee that program. And 00:40:00I all--well I did cry because I thought Raoul, who--Raoul Cunningham, who leads the Louisville NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of Colored People] or has led it for--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --many years, has also become someone--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --who I've grown close with. And I thought, Raoul, of all the people, more esteemed than me. You know, it's like Georgia really thought the world of you. And--so it's that kind of connection. You know, I think of the connection that I have with, with my interviewer right now Betty Bayè. You know, people who I've never said were my mentors, but who were and who are. Merlene Davis, said the same thing about her when I got a chance to share a stage with her for a community project. That I read her columns and I tried to think, Now, how did she arrive,--even particularly you, How did she arrive at that phraseology? How did she arrive to that conclusion? What was it? What was going on? That took her to that place? Right? And that you owned your whole self?

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: Because I didn't see that anywhere else in Kentucky. So I look at the Betty the--there's only one Betty Bayè --(Bayè laughs)--and there's only one Merlene Davis. There's only one uh, Georgia Davis Powers. There's only one Nikky Finney, with whom--I've interviewed her several times. And Crystal Wilkinson,--

BAYÈ: --Yes.--

SHAW: --the Affrilachian poets in general from the, from the founder to Frank X [Frank X Walker]--

BAYÈ: --Frank X--

SHAW: --to Bianca Spriggs, who's now at Ohio State University, I think now.

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --All of these people have one, helped comfort me just in the conversation, because sometimes you do feel really alone, like I'm the only one really doing this and I have no sounding board. But when I sit on that "Connections" set and, and you and I can talk about civil rights in Kentucky. I mean, that's your hallelujah by and by shouting ----------??-- glory time when it's like, okay, I am-- even though I don't feel like I parse out myself,--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --my whole self is revealed afresh--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --in those conversations.

BAYÈ: --And that was what I was going to ask you about, that intersection,--

SHAW: --Um-hm--

BAYÈ: --because there's the debate and you said we all have our biases.--

SHAW: --Right.

BAYÈ: The intersection between journalism and activism--

SHAW: --Oh sure.--

BAYÈ: --and trying to be a journalist--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --and knowing that the activist is maybe a different kind of role.--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --but yet in so many ways, journalists are activists.

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively That's right.--

BAYÈ: And you have seen the evolution. So I wanted to ask you about--have you thought about that in terms of.--

SHAW: --Sure. You know, I, I do try to stick down the middle with everything. Um, and I feel like there's a lot of editorial uh, room that I can bring to--even bringing up a discussion. Right? I get to choose my topics. So, I may choose something that normally, maybe a white counterpart wouldn't. So to me, that is an exercise in activism, but it's a journalistic endeavor nonetheless. Um, you know, it's a fine line. And I think that I do try to maintain 00:43:00a more sturdy line on air. Now, sometimes I let go a little bit, but I try to maintain that. But I also am very active in the community. So I feel like, let me represent what my role is at this particular point in my life. But I can still be involved in these other ways and I can still bring up the importance of the achievement gap. That's not going away and is widened. And it's not just black kids. It's white rural kids. I mean, I think what I try to do is say, Here are the commonalities. If you're poor, you're poor. I don't care if you live in the West End or in the holler. Poor is poor. And so let's kind of bridge--the one of the projects I do want to work on is bridging the urban-rural divide, and when I think about what being black and southern means. Now talk about trying to make that fit, right? And, and having a space where I can truly have 00:44:00a very honest conversation. Now, I will say the conversation I'm going to have, Betty Bayè about being black and in the South is probably different than what I'm going to have on KET statewide public television.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: You know? I mean, I--but I still think you've got to introduce people. The--one of the nicest compliments I've received is--a white gentleman in Pike County says, "You know, I watch you all the time. I don't know why, but I've got a little son." At the time, he was nine years old. "And we sit and watch you." And he says, "I've learned so much about race relations, about all of these things because I've watched you."

BAYÈ: Hmm

SHAW: And I thought, Okay.--

BAYÈ: --It's worth getting up in the morning and doing the job.

SHAW: See what I'm saying?

BAYÈ: Um-hm.--

SHAW: Just for him and that little nine year-old boy, if nobody else. And I'm-- you're not trying to necessarily change minds. You're just trying to broaden minds.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --I always say, "I'm not trying to tell you what to think, but I want to tell you what to think about." Think about the intersectionality of 00:45:00race and poverty and the criminal justice system in America and the educational system in America. Think about that. Really--uh read Melissa Victoria Harris-Perry's, Sister Citizens book. You know, go back and get The New Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander.--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --I'm not saying you got to agree with it, but you just sit there for a while with that book, and read it like you would the Bible. Read it every time for the first time. You will get something out of that. And I think that that's what my mission is. I'm not trying to necessarily, although I'd like to change some minds--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --just to broaden what people might consider as worthy of discussion. And when it comes to race--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --and Doris Kearns Goodwin said this the other week when I was there for the authors forum and Scott--A. Scott Berg--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --who interviewed

BAYÈ: --Yeah. --(laughs)--

SHAW: --her, said, "We've got to have a conversation this--in this country about race." Now, I wanted to say, "We have them all the time. Now let's do something." We talked about it all the time, and I'm not sure how we 00:46:00get there. I want to be a part of that. I want to get to know,--because to be honest with you, across in my hometown of Portland, Tennessee,--across the street, there is a family with whom we would check--exchange deer meat. And if somebody died or got sick, they'd bring you a casserole in a minute. But on any given day, that Confederate flag might be flying high.--

BAYÈ: --Hmm.--

SHAW: --Right? But they didn't interpret that necessarily as what we would interpret as. They were just "Dukes of Hazzard" fans.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: Right, so I had to learn, okay, they aren't hateful people necessarily. They just don't know what they don't know. And over time and talking with them--well, I looked out my window one day when I was home recently. It was Thanksgiving, 2018. And they had the American flag, but I didn't see the Confederate flag.

BAYÈ: Hmm.

SHAW: And I thought--and of course, their family has integrated. Right?--

BAYÈ: --Yes.--(laughs)--

SHAW:--Right? So this is what happens now. They've got bi-racial grandchildren.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: But I thought, Well, hallelujah. You know, we're getting somewhere. Sometimes we just have to--if we just understood and took the time to be in someone else's shoes and listen to somebody else's experience, I think we'd come a long way. And, and, and unfortunately in this digital era, all of these new platforms push us further and further apart--

BAYÈ: --That's what I--

SHAW: -- from doing just this. (gestures)--

BAYÈ: --That's what I was going to ask you about. This is a certain political era.

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively) Yeah. Oh.--

BAYÈ: --When we interviewed Merlene Davis, I think Barack Obama was still the president. Um, in this era,--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: - your, your, your, your place of bringing together at a time of separation, is that sort of old fashioned?--

SHAW: --No.--

BAYÈ: --Is that out of fashion now to try to say, Look, we need to talk?

SHAW: Right. Right. No, I agree with you.--

BAYÈ: --And, and, and, and, and, and I also want to ask you about--sometimes you weary of being the teacher.

SHAW: Yeah. Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --You know, but it's like it's always there, to teach.--

SHAW: That's right. That's right.--

BAYÈ: --So, so, so how--do you feel different navigating in this particular climate? Or do you feel like this is what I've always done--

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively) Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --and I'm going to keep doing going down that road?

SHAW: It's all of, all of the above. Right? To the point about I'm always teaching. I have to go back and remember how many people poured into me. And even though I, I'm maybe not getting all of that amount of pouring into now, I got enough that I've got a reservoir. Right? And so I feel like it's my obligation, working for an educational institution particularly, to say that education is the mission here and that the conversation that we have is a teaching exercise. And, you know, we have some tough--I've had some tough shows about immigration, of late. And I have got the most disparate voices 00:49:00to come on that show from the ACLU [American Civil Liberties Union] to a guy with an organization where they've got some pretty hyperbolic things on their web site and some disparaging things about people of color. But once again, if you get them there at that table, every now and then, there is a glimmer of, Okay. I do see your point. Now it's rare.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: But I think if we just keep going there, we'll get somewhere. I do believe that America and our society, we're not nearly as bad as we're acting. But I've told a group of people, that our leaders are a reflection of us. It's our representative democracy in more ways than one. Not just we send these people there to advocate on behalf of their constituents. They are a reflection of who we are.

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --They are a reflection of our values. I mean, 2018 was called the election,--the referendum on values. Right? What do we value as the 00:50:00republic, as the republic that we are. Now, whether or not that played out in fruition, as some people may have, would have liked, that's up to someone else to judge. But I do believe that we're having a very serious conversation, not about whether capitalism is good or bad or socialism is good or bad, but about American ideals, and, you know, just the principles of the golden rule. And there's got to be a common set of principles, like David Brooks would talk about in The Road To Character, that we all agree upon are just fundamentals. It--it--regardless of race or religion, that every religion believes that you should take care of your, your brother.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Every religion believes that you should have compassion. Every religion believes these things. So I think we're--and we're hearing these things from voices that have typically been aligned with one group, that's now being maligned. We're hearing these voices come out and say, "Wait a minute, that's not my party."--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --You're hearing that. You're hearing people say that's--the 00:51:00Republican Party is not the party to which I once held allegiance. And, and, and they attribute that to who's in the White House. And you have Democrats who've done the same. But I do believe that we will eventually moderate to the middle. President Reagan said that government is, is best run by people in the middle. You know, if eighty percent of what really can get accomplished can be done by moderate voices and let the fringe--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --be on the fringe.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --But, you know, I do appreciate, though, that marginal voices are being heard, because once we were marginal voices. So are we equivalent to today's Tea Party? I mean, if we flip it on its head, and this is what I'm always interested in--you know--an, an air of discontent. Well, there was discontent. You know, slavery, Jim Crow.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: Civil rights. So what President Trump was able to do was to tap 00:52:00into those of the majority population that felt disenfranchised. So are we really the same? We're just discontent over different things. But it's still discontentment.

BAYÈ: And how we play to it,--

SHAW: --And how we play to it, and--

BAYÈ: --whether we play to the better angels or--

SHAW: --That's right. And the rhetoric we use.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: And and, you know, and that's the difference is that now we're just lambasting and assailing people-- I mean, the ad hominem remarks. You know, you can attack someone's ideology and their character and their argument without attacking their character. There is a difference. You know, when John Dickerson with "CBS This Morning" did a great little piece about um, the art of the argument. You know, our founders knew how to argue--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --Right?--in crafting the Constitution. And they also felt that democracy,--that those who were in those democratic spaces had a 00:53:00responsibility to be caretakers of the dialog; to be caretakers of how we communicate. You're--you still protect free speech, but you're to be caretakers. You don't scream fire in a crowded theater, for good reason, but we're doing that now.

BAYÈ: Right.

SHAW: Every single day.--

BAYÈ: And what was--

SHAW: --Right now on Twitter, we're screaming it.

BAYÈ: Yeah. What was interesting about the founders, too, is that they could have these ideals and yet own slaves.

SHAW: Right. Right.

BAYÈ: And but, you know how they managed that balance--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --of coming up with these constitutional documents,--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: -- that people on the left have always said, We would just want you to live up to what you said.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: You know. But they could say it and still be engaged--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --in this practice.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: And so we try--so even in that, there's some-- you can maybe find some humanity.

SHAW: Right. --(nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: You can find something that says you are doing this, but you know.

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively)-- Um-hm.

BAYÈ: You know that this is evil;

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: that this is not right.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: And yet, you know, appeal to, to the better angels. And, and, and, and, and I want to know, just as you look out at the landscape, you said we can reach that balance. Do you think that we had to go here, to --(Shaw nods affirmatively)--where we are, to get to where we need to be?

SHAW: Absolutely. I mean. I remember 2008. I remember election night, and I remember being in that crowd and watching Aretha. And I remember how that felt. I remember how it felt in ninety-three when I was at Bill Clinton's inauguration. You know, we are at a place um,--and I do believe you're exactly right; that we saw this surgence of discontent with President Barack Obama. That somehow they felt they had license and then--and this current administration has given overall just license for that. But I do think we had to come to 00:55:00this particular juncture to see how much healing we still need to do, to see how fractured we really are. Um, because it was always there underneath the surface.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: And we were suppressing it, but now it's come full out in front.

BAYÈ: --Barrack Obama gave that patina of kumbaya.--

SHAW: -Yeah. ----------??-- What do we--What phrase did we hear when he was elected? We are now a post-racial society.

BAYÈ: Right. He learned pretty quickly that--

SHAW: --and we did too.--

BAYÈ: Yeah.

SHAW: Right? We did too. You can have a Deval Patrick, Patrick and Kamala Harris.

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --I mean you could have all that stuff, you know, but you still didn't get a Stacey Abrams.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --and you still didn't get a Gillum.

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Right? I mean, so we still--and not to say that you should have, but we still have some places to go. So I think sometimes before you get the complete healing, --even as you look at your own journey as an individual, 00:56:00sometimes you've got to open up every single wound and step over those same rocks and go in those same valleys over and over again. Until you finally learn,--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --that, what I've been doing isn't getting us anywhere, isn't getting me anywhere. And I think that's much the same way that we are right now. But I do believe we can recover. And you're hearing people who would have been silent before and would have just stood by--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --their own particular party and said, Well, it's okay.This, too, shall pass. You know, this is not 1968. You're right. This is not slavery. You're right. But it still doesn't mean that it's acceptable. We have to come to grips to saying just because this is not the most turbulent times, perhaps as Doris Kearns Goodwin may defined it, it still doesn't make it acceptable. And we now as an obligation,--as, as folks who have come much farther, have all this technology and all these means, have an obligation to say we're gonna be the ones to make sure that we upend the current trend.

BAYÈ: And, and uh, I was thinking when you were speaking about--the--one of the wonderful things about travel,--

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively)--Right.--

BAYÈ: --is that you really do realize how young America is.

SHAW: -(laughs)--Right. Right.--

BAYÈ: You have to go to Egypt, --

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --As I did. And go to the pyramids.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: Or go to France. Or go to different places and see how old--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --they are and how young America is.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: So this may be you're suggesting, our growing pains,--

SHAW: --Maybe so.--

BAYÈ: --our you know,--it feels old, but it's not.

SHAW: That's right. That's right. But we're seeing that discontent. I mean, look at what's happening in England. I mean, look, look at--it's, it's a lot of places. And so I guess putting our finger on why are we so angry? The Atlantic this month, and I just got it in the mailbox, so I haven't read it yet. But the cover story is, Why are we so angry? And we're all angry about 00:58:00something. Some of us are angry about stuff that government has nothing to do with. It's a personal thing. It's a spousal problem. It's a problem with the child. But we're angry and that festers out into the electorate. I mean, it festers out because someone's gotta take the blame and it sure isn't going to be them.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --So there is a lot of anger. And then part of the story, and I haven't read it all talks about how expressing that anger can be good, because then you kind of put in front of your face, okay, here's what I'm feeling and here's where we are. But I've got to move beyond that. And that you come to a place that's much more agreeable. And maybe that's just where we are, that hopefully we're at the summit of the expression of our anger. --(laughs)--

BAYÈ: Well, part of it. And, and I know we've got to wrap up. Right?

SHAW: Oh, sure. ??: How's your time?

SHAW: I'm okay.--

BAYÈ: --Okay.--

SHAW: --I'm okay.-- ??: She says she's doing okay?--

BAYÈ: --Okay.--

SHAW: --Yeah I'm doing okay.

BAYÈ: Because I was going to say, the media.--

SHAW: --Yeah. Right.

BAYÈ: And it's so fractured.--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --I mean there was a time when you wrote editorials for 00:59:00--(Shaw nods affirmatively)--The Courier-Journal and it meant something.--

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively)-- Right.--

BAYÈ: --I mean, almost, you know, people were reading it--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: -- and now you got all these other things. There was no longer an editorial board at The Courier-Journal.

SHAW: -- Right.--

BAYÈ: Uh, ,most of the newspapers, you know, are struggling.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: Or the stories are an inch deep.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: Because reporters don't have time--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --to really delve in it investigative, you know, journalist. And you know it really is just a story. It's not an investigation at all.--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --So how do you see, as a veteran now,--

SHAW: --Um-hm (laughs)--

BAYÈ: --still a young woman, but you are a veteran of the industry,

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --the media--how do we--even though know KET is KET, but it's still sort of like mainstream media compared to all of these--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --web sites and Facebook and Twitter and all of that. How do you see us finding common ground? What is the way--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --forward to find it when there are all these voiceShaw

SHAW: Right. A--well, the mainstream media has to find a way to 01:00:00message what fake news is and what it isn't. And that truth is truth.--

BAYÈ: --Yes.--

SHAW: --And that an apple can never be a banana and a banana can never be an apple.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --I don't care how many times somebody tries to convince you otherwise. If there was ever a time for solid, legitimate journalism, now is the time. Now there is a reason why there's been a spike in subscriptions to The New York Times and PBS NewsHour. Right?--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --People are thirsty for news. Now, the problem is, as you're mentioning, you know, there's a lot of emerging--what's that Insider Louisville. You know, you had these others who are coming into the fray and they're pretty legitimate. Right. They're a nonprofit that they don't have the same business model as The Courier. Um. And, and they're trying to, they say, fill a gap that the courier has left because-- but, you know, you know very well that because there is no local ownership. Okay? When we let media giants and that's happening. 01:01:00The consolidation of the media industry is not just newspapers. I mean, it's with television stations. So when you have four or five big giant companies that are pretty much in charge of the messaging of,--you know, of the media, that's a problem. I mean, local ownership is good. Local voices are good. And I think that's one of the problems. The citizenry has to also be a little smarter. They also have to want to put in the work. Get ya a newspapers--

BAYÈ: --I didn't want to put words in your mouth.--

SHAW: --Well, but that's--

BAYÈ: --But go there.--

SHAW: --But seriously.--

BAYÈ: --Yeah,--

SHAW: --They gotta be willing to say, You know, maybe FOX and MSNBC do have a point of view. And maybe what I should do is vary the, the sources that I look at. Maybe I look at MSNBC, FOX, CNN, but do as I do. And even if I wasn't in this industry, I still read Wall Street Journal. I still read 01:02:00a--though you know, uh Washington Post, The Courier Journal, The Herald. Later. I might even pick up a little,--sometimes pick up a little paper here, there and yon just in, you know, out in the ypn --Daily Yonder. You know, that's not even publicized. It's publicized because it's online, but that originates in Texas. Bill Bishop--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --and crew, you know, to know what's happening in the rural areas.

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Right, we have to put in the work to be informed. So when you go to the ballot box, you're making an informed decision. There is no way you can convince somebody that something is unbiased. And I had this conversation with a group of women who said, Well, you know, nowadays reporters are using too many adjectives to make the story colorful.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Right. Well, you know, part of that is you won't read it if it's just the facts, because if that were the case, KET would be the hottest thing happening. Right?

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --PBS would be the hottest thing happening. Our ratings would be through the roof.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --If all you cared about were just the facts.

BAYÈ: And do you send twenty-five dollarShaw

SHAW: Say that. --(Bayè laughs)-- Right? I mean, so I just try to tell people, We are who we want to change. We just don't recognize that. If you want something better out of media or your political representative, then you show them what that looks like.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --You subscribe. You write thoughtful letters to the editor,

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --not just blasting somebody--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --because they had a different opinion than you.--

BAYÈ: --And we're also in an era where you have political leaders who don't even talk to the constituents.--

SHAW: --Well, true story.--

BAYÈ: --They will not put themselves, up to the constituents.

SHAW: Right. Right.

BAYÈ: I, I want to ask you about your work with the legislature.

SHAW: --Um-hm. Sure.--

BAYÈ: --Let's talk about the Kentucky legislature, because on many of the social

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --indicators and the health care indicators, Kentucky

SHAW: --Oh.--

BAYÈ: --is always down near the bottom. Mississippi,--

SHAW: --Kentucky uglies.--

BAYÈ: --Alabama, Kentucky, whatever. And you say that the leaders 01:04:00reflect who we are.

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: -- What are you seeing in this legislature?

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: You know, the national politics is one thing, but who's making the bread at home?

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: And, and, and, and tell me about that legislation, this state legislature.

SHAW: Right. Well, you know, since I've been on the scene uh, there, there is now a Republican trifecta with the mansion being in control of a Republican. Now, both houses, uh are in control of Republicans. That happened in 2016 on the Trump wave. You know, Kentucky was an anomaly is that we were the only state in the South that had a, a split legislature, where you had Republicans in control of one and Democrats in control of the other. And that changed with the Trump wave. You know, we've seen legislation of, of late that's been very pro-business. So um, and there's still an emphasis on social issues. 01:05:00Social issues, just in talking to voters, that's what they vote on. Kentucky voters, many of them, are motivated by pro-life issues above everything else. Not, not against their economic, but if, if, if both candidates, one Democrat, one Republican,--both had the same economic message, a Kentucky voter is more likely to look at the social platform and say, Hh, yeah, but they you know,--apparently they're for abortions in the ninth month. And that's what they're turned off by. So we're very, by and large, a pro-life state. And you'll see that reflected. You know, we've had bills that have come up um, about transgendered bathrooms and uh, you know, cakes being made for people, you know, um--

BAYÈ: --Who are gay, yeah.

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --And that's coming up before the Supreme--Kentucky Supreme Court in, in February of twenty nineteen. You know, we've seen this fracturing. Social wedge issues play here just as much as they do in Tennessee and anywhere else.

BAYÈ: But let me ask you this, Renee. How do you factor that people are pro-life, and yet have trouble with people having health care?--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --And yet they don't want to invest in education. ----------??-- What is it, that the child is just born--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --and then after that, what? How do--

SHAW: --Um-hm--

BAYÈ: --How do these legislators--how do they do--how do you get there,

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --to be pro-life and for our state to be so under-performing in so many areas that are pro-life?

SHAW: Right. And so I will tell you what. That's the argument that Democrats often make, is that you care about, you know, womb and not world. Right? So once the child is in the womb, we're all about protections, but once the child is in the world, they're on their own. And the Republicans would say, Well, if we really build up job creating opportunities, then health care,--the 01:07:00marketplace will take care of folks. If we get government out of the way, then all of these other things will come to fruition, and people will be better off. If we, you know, enforce uh, or give teet-- or give parents options in education where they can choose between a charter school or they get a scholarship tax credit, then they are empowered to make sure that their child gets an education that's tailored to them. So they would--Republicans would perceive that as, Well, we're not unconcerned and dispassionate about children beyond birth. We just have a different approach. What Democrats haven't been able to do, I think successfully, is build and sustain and communicate a solid message about what they stand for. Now, I'm not saying they haven't tried, but it hasn't been successful. And, you know, they're--the Senate and the Kentucky Senate is even more Republican than it was this time last year. They're--the 01:08:00supermajority in the state House has been diminished a little bit, but they still have sixty-one. So somehow either the Democrats have to decide. We're actually going to own some of the national things. Affordable Care Act. We're actually going to own pro-immigration policies. We're going to own more support for public schools. We're gonna own protection for public pensions, at all costs. And that may be perceived as progressive and liberal or they're gonna have to decide whether--in order for us to get some more seats in these chambers that we have to become more toward the middle. That we have to be conservative Democrats, that we have to be pro-Second Amendment, that we have to latch on to uh pro-life causes. So I think there is an interesting identity crisis happening within the Democratic Party in Kentucky. And many people 01:09:00say that's not just in Kentucky. That could be nationwide.

BAYÈ: Um-hm. And the media's role in uh, presenting.--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --Because one of the things that often has happened on the national scene is that Donald Trump just sucks up all the oxygen--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --and sometimes--and I love it when I listen to public radio after,

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --you know, listening to the cable stations and you realize there are other things going on in the world. S:? --(laughs)--Right. Right.

BAYÈ: And there really are good things that people are doing.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: But are the media falling?--And I don't know, you know, because cable is so much opinion that people--

SHAW: --Right. Is the dog wagging the tail. Bayè --don't know what's reporting and what's opinion and--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: -- whatever.

SHAW: And never before has the media, I think, fallen-- and it's never-- they've never had to-- into the trap of reporting on tweets. But when you wake up and you know, you've got a newscast at 6:00 a.m. and the President tweeted at 3:30 and 4:00, well heck. You know? You got to report that. Right? Now, I 01:10:00think the media has to decide how much credence you're going to give to that. The-- is, is a tweet fact?

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Is the tweet worth--but the problem is,-- I will say with that is within those tweets are real policy statements.

BAYÈ: Life impacting. Yes.

SHAW: Yes. I mean, they're not just kind of off the cuff ramblings in the morning, you know, morning musings. They are making some serious either accusations or assertions about the direction of this country and our uh, presence on the world stage. And the-- when that happens, the media has a responsibility to report that and then look for other sources to say--substantiate. Well now, what's wrong with this statement? Just ask that question. And what's right with this statement? And to get both sides. I will say sometimes,--you know, it used to be and it's still that way for KET when we do an issue both sides are presented in that one story. Not just, Well here's this side of the story, and then we'll get to the other side later--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --because, you know, that same viewer may not see the other later. You've got to put both in there.And I think that's where, you know, all of the institutions of American democracy are under attack are perceived and had the lowest perception and value than they've ever had, from Congress to the media. Um, we--our fundamentals are being attacked and--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --they're not being valued. And I think that in Congress--and I think even in Kentucky, you're seeing people say--and even Mitch McConnell would say, you know, An open democracy,--an open press is crucial to democracy. But, you know, he may not like the accountability that he's held to, but he's sure glad that's there when he wants to try to get the other side. Right?

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Understanding that there--that this benefits both sides.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --All of the time. But because we're so fractured and we just want our ideology substantiated. Right? We want our belief to be 01:12:00substantiated. Then we look for sources that give it that substantiation. Bill Bishop, who used to be at the Herald Leader who moved to back to uh, back to Texas, wrote a book called The Big Sort, and it's about the clustering of America. It talks about gerrymanding -- -----------??-- mandering , but it also talks about the fact that we are fractured ourselves in our own neighborhoods. Now, you know we know that some housing practices are there. And that's that's an institutional issue to deal with, but there is also this self-segregation that we're doing, away from people who don't look, think and believe and--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --eat the same foods that we do. So we've got to decide who we are, and what we want.

BAYÈ: It, it's a great challenge today for --and I think KET does this. We--how do you deal with the false equivalencieShaw--

SHAW: --Um-hm. Oh, please.--(laughs)--

BAYÈ: --Like when we say, On the one hand, this. On the one hand, that. Like everything is equal?--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: -- And for me, the example has long been--tell me the upside 01:13:00of the Holocaust.--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --What is the other side of that story?--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --Or when does the media find the courage to say, This is just wrong?--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --There's no upside to that.--

SHAW: --Right. That's a good question. That's a good question.--

BAYÈ: -- So. How do we deal with the false equivalency saying we want to be fair and balanced--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --but we've got to give the crazy person as much credibility --(Shaw laughs)-- as we do to the person that has studied the issues, that knows the issue, whether it's climate change or whatever. And we have to bring in some fool just to say anything that's based on nothing, except what they feel.--

SHAW: That's right.--

BAYÈ: --Is that -- do you see that as the challenge, the false equivalency and yet trying to be fair?

SHAW: Right. Right. I think that is a tough balance. And you bring up an excellent point of how you, how you do that. So I remember when I served on the Kentucky Historical Society Board and there was an exhibit about slavery. And one of the basic premises was, that slavery was wrong. Well, that was 01:14:00a really hotly contested statement about whether or not an agency should say that. Right?

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: Should come out and make that kind of assertion. I think the media faces a very similar criticism of how much do you--so this is where you can say that activism comes in. Right? Or if, if there is an agreed upon set of values, which we don't have in this country anymore, then there would be nothing wrong with the media saying, There is no counter argument about the Holocaust. There is no other fake news.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: You know, and to, and to find you know,-- you've got to find those academic scholastic voices that will reaffirm basic understandings about our history.

BAYÈ: And truth.

SHAW: And truth. You know? And, and, and then showcase, you know, the folks who are descendants of and who lived through that. I mean, we also have to-- we know that storytelling is what makes the convincing argument. That it's 01:15:00not just a recitation of dates and facts. I mean, that's where history teachers have gotten it wrong, right? That it's not just about, Memorize, you know, nineteen sixty five, you know, Civil Rights Act. I mean, the Voting Rights Act, Civil Rights Act, '64. It's more than that. It's more about knowing the names. You know, it's knowing about, like you said, paying honor and homage to the people who fought. So if we know the names, we'll then learn their stories. But I --we try to-- I think especially television news gets away from the name, the story, the face. You can't just do recitation of facts. And I think if we start giving more than three minutes, --well we don't give three minutes, a minute and half on commercial television.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --If you give a little bit more time, you'll get there. But if you're just constantly trying to show in that A block, every murder, every shooting, every theft,every break in,--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --not saying that's not important. But there needs to be an 01:16:00intentional commitment to saying, you know, these aren't necessary--these aren't feel good stories. These are deep policy discussions about what is tearing us apart.

BAYÈ: And if you show that A block. At 6 a.m., 7 a.m.,--

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively)-- Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --8 a.m., 9 a.m., 12:00 am,--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --I mean,12:00 noon and go through it through the night, we feel like,--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --we're in a crime wave.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: But it's the same people coming in front of the camera.--

SHAW: --That's right. And what does that do? It incites more fear about the people that you're seeing on the screen. And that--I should have said this earlier. That is one reason why we started "Connections". The way I defined it, "Connections" was--it was the antidote to the 11 o'clock news.

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --That instead of saying black people always--or people of color being in this crime,--y,ou know, their their mug shots, you know, Christopher 2X is doing some amazing things and helping the community. You know, the late Blaine Hudson did some wonderful work. You know uh, you--there-- I have a whole list 01:17:00of people. And, and so I will say this, the media some right, downright lazy. They want to go to the same sources all the time. If a black person is shot in New York, they gonna go to Reverend Al Sharpton--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --like he's the only one. Thank God you got Eddie Barber, who's now on the stage. But they're--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --they're too lazy to reach out beyond their Rolodex and look for a fresh face. You know, the Imani Perrys of the world and the you know, the Dyson's of the world--I mean, it's fine to have those people, but you've got brilliant people at Bellarmine, who's doing now racial reconciliation--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --whole, um course.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: You've got wonderful people in all these institutions. Don't just go to the one that, you know, makes the paper all the time. Look for that person in the community who's doing some good stuff. And Aubrey Williams, who was a gangbanger, who was shot,--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --who has redeemed himself and working with young people. That's somebody that talk--get the other side of the story. You know, why did--instead of talking about the event of crime and the episode of crime, talk about 01:18:00the reasons for why there is crime.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: Talk about the fact that these people have not just poverty in finances and spirit, but because of where they live that's not--there is no fresh food. There's no sidewalks. There's no safe park.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: You know, talk about those things and not just assail the people for, you know, falling into these situations that sometimes are beyond their control.

BAYÈ: Um-hm. And I've always thought that. And I can remember early on and I'm back to the woman thing--

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: That they would do these stories about the black matriarch.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: Okay? But when they discuss the economics, they would always ask a black man.

SHAW: Uh-huh.

BAYÈ: And on the one hand, black women are running the families and stuff,--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --but you don't have them as sources,--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --because they're handling the kids. They're dealing with--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --the with, the welfare people. They're doing all of these things,--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --but the sources--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --and it's like who you know.--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --And that gets to the fact that as, as a journalist, getting 01:19:00out into the community.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: How,--like you say, I go to this church or I go to this school.--(Shaw nods affirmatively)-- I do these things. Do you feel--that because there are journalists who they do not come out--

SHAW: --Oh no.--

BAYÈ: -- into the streetShaw

SHAW: They don't and they don't stay long enough in those communities to even know who the heck they're covering, because they're just looking to move to a different market size. Right? I mean, if you really want to cover a,-- that's the difference. What's your motivation? You know is your motivation just to tell a story so you can get, you know, a really good resumé reel to move on to somewhere else?--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Okay. That's fine. But I think for those of us who invest, there is an obligation, because this is where you live.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --You know? And so I just--it's just incumbent, I think upon--I don't--and people may say, Well, now you're becoming an activist. Well, no. Just because I want this child whose potential I know is there, who,who was a young Renee--I mean, that's what I tell Al Smith, who, you know,--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --bless his heart, gave me a check one time to help buy some supplies for the school, because I had said that, You know, there was a little 01:20:00girl in that class that reminds me of me, when I was that age. You know, and was a little shy, but then--and you know, and that did it for him. Once again, the connection of storytelling. You know? And we have to be in those communities long enough to know the people, to be interested in their stories, not just one dimension, but all the sides of it. And then to convince our news directors that this is a story worth telling. Not always, just, you know, sitting in an editorial meeting and say, Well, this is what you want to cover. But you know, raise your hand and say, But this is worth doing. Here's the other side. And what's our obligation? Remember we're to serve in the public interest. In the interest of the public. And if we lose that Hippocratic oath, that's why we don't have any credibility.--

BAYÈ: --And the First Amendment--that First Amendment protection.

SHAW: That's exactly right.

BAYÈ: But you make the other point. Is that when people see you on the screen,--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --everybody wants to be in the screen,-- on the screen.--

SHAW: --Right. (laughs)--Right. Right.--

BAYÈ: --But how do we--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: -- help young people that want to be in this business,

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --to understand that the power--

SHAW: --Yeah.-- Bayè-- is also behind the camera.

SHAW: That's right. And the responsibility, the responsibility. Especially as I've grown older--

BAYÈ: --And you're a producer, too, so you know.

SHAW: Oh yeah, I mean, I, I've done it all. And I tell people that I started off serving coffee. I've done everything but clean the toilet. I mean, whatever it took to get, you know, to, to show that I was a hard worker and willing to do whatever. But I think that uh, you know, to your question. What was your question? --both laugh-- I'm sorry.

BAYÈ: No, it was about being on the camera--

SHAW: --Being on the camera and the power--

BAYÈ: --and understanding--

SHAW: --Oh right, the power and the responsibility that it's not just about you. It's not about you at all. It really isn't about you. It's not about your reputation. It's not about your paycheck. Because when you die. Who giveShaw

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: Right. It's about the legacy. I, I look at what I'm doing, you 01:22:00know, is legacy building. That as a woman, a single woman who doesn't have kids of my own, you know, I look at a responsibility. You know that I have kids to nurture. I have a community to nurture. You know, saying -- I think I've even heard Oprah say, you know, the reason why she didn't have kids, you know, is because there's so many other ways she was being a mother and that maternal responsibility was playing out a different way. And I think that's how I look at it. Not everybody does. But I think I look at the fact that, you know, I have, I have a responsibility to tell the truth, to dig hard for the facts, to research, to prep, I can't emphasize knowing what you know. I can't emphasize the fact that I will spend a weekend reading a book and never put a single minute on my time sheet.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: You know, I, I will say that I will go emcee this and go emcee that and not be compensated. Just because it's important to be in a room with 01:23:00real people who were doing real things, not some highfalutin banquet with a $100 ticket, but to a little banquet for teen moms, and to sit amongst the teen moms who talk about their struggles being able to afford diapers.

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: So. You know. It's a basic act of humanity. You are a journalist, but you're a human first and there is an obligation you have. You know, I'm a public servant. That's how I am.

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: There's nothing else that I am. I'm a Christian, black woman, public servant.

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: That's all I want said about me. And that's why I chose to work for a public institution, because I knew what it would give me. But it has given me so much more--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --than I thought. And it's given me the time to go on a Friday to kids, and see them, and talk to them, and inspire them and to show them 01:24:00that, you know what? It doesn't matter your situation. You are far more than where you are.

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: And we've got to show people what they can be because--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --you can't be what you don't see. And so for me, you know that-- and I know that lots of journalists come into particularly, this area may not be so much in Louisville, but in Lexington, you know, you get a, you get a reporter in here for a couple of years they're gone.

BAYÈ: This is a way station to going--

SHAW: --It pretty much is. (nods affirmatively)

BAYÈ: Yeah. Louisville, too.

SHAW: Yeah.

BAYÈ: Because I don't --I used to know them.--

SHAW: --Yeah.You don't.--

BAYÈ: --I don't know most of them.--

SHAW: --I don't know any of them--

BAYÈ: --They're not there long enough.

SHAW: --anymore. You know, I mean, I couldn't name you one,--

BAYÈ: --But--

SHAW: --but it shows in their reporting.

BAYÈ: Yes.

SHAW: It shows in their reporting.

BAYÈ: They don't know.

SHAW: The disconnect is so obvious--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --because what you're not saying their name right.

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --You know. Two, your facts are all out of whack, you know? And so if you're invested and you spend a little extra time off the clock just to be in those spaces, and maybe you never do a story about it.--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --But it does also influence how you view everything else.--

BAYÈ: --Yeah. (sniffs)

SHAW: --You know, as a lifelong learner--and that's what I am. I'm always going to be a student. I'm always going to try to learn because, you know, that's just what life is. But you have to make an intentional effort to go out of your comfort zone, you know, out of your zip code, to know about your community, because then, --I mean, you can't do the job if you're just going to seclude yourself in, in what your area is.

BAYÈ: ----------??-- But you know Renee, almost everyone that we've interviewed for this oral history project has been older than you.

SHAW: Oh. (laughs) Oh. I bet.

BAYÈ: --And--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --And you show why you're, why you're--

SHAW: --Right. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --in the Hall of Fame.--

SHAW: --Oh, well, thank you.--

BAYÈ: --And to be iconic--

SHAW: --I want to say, I'm not deserving to be in the Hall of Fame. So when I got that call or the letter. I was like, this has got to be a 01:26:00mistake. Seriously, Betty, because I am still trying to climb up on the feet of my elders, of the people who I've been able to learn from. Like you. Like Blaine Hudson. You know. Uh, Ed Hamilton. I mean, Adawale Troutman who used to be in Louisville.--

BAYÈ: --Health director.

SHAW: --That's right. You know, I'm still trying to get to where you all--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --are in your understanding of the world

BAYÈ: --But here's the thing--

SHAW: --and what your contributions are.

BAYÈ: --is that people can teach when there's a student that wants to hear.

SHAW: Right. (nods affirmatively)

BAYÈ: So as much as you got from those people, you showed them something to say.--

SHAW: --Right. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --I think you have something to say to teach me.

SHAW: Right. Right. (nods affirmatively)

BAYÈ: And we spend a lot of time invested in people who are not interested--

SHAW: --Right. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --in the story. So I--I'm saying that to be as young as you are and to really be an iconic figure--

SHAW: --Oh, ----------??--

BAYÈ: --and I mean iconic as a young woman, but showing other girls 01:27:00the way.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: I mean, and, and, and breaking it down and saying, If I'm doing this,--

SHAW: --Yes.--

BAYÈ: --you can do this.

SHAW: Absolutely.

BAYÈ: And it's not the doing this. It is the homework.

SHAW: That's right. It is the homework.--

BAYÈ: --Is the reading. It is the study. It is what Miss Alice and those people--

SHAW: --(laughs) That's right.--

BAYÈ: --back in Porland. I can't get past Miss Alice.

SHAW: --(laughs) That's right. I know. Miss Alice.

BAYÈ: Miss Alice, the people there, your mom and your dad.--

SHAW: --Yeah.(nods affirmatively)

BAYÈ: And-- Whoopi, did something the other day, and she took her children and grandchildren to experience Christmas in New York--

SHAW: --Uh-huh--

BAYÈ: --as she experienced it as a kid.

SHAW: That's awesome.

BAYÈ: She grew up in the projects.

SHAW: Right. (nods affirmatively)

BAYÈ: But her mother took her to see the Rockettes.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: Her mother took her to see all of the things that were available so she could see beyond.

SHAW: That's right.--

BAYÈ: --And you said seeing beyond--

SHAW: --Um-hm--

BAYÈ: --when you talk to the babies, when you talk to the young 01:28:00people, --

SHAW: --Um-hm--

BAYÈ: --how do you get them to see beyond? Because there'll come a time-

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --when you may move off the stage.

SHAW: Right. Yes.

BAYÈ: And the question becomes, who will you bringing--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --who are you raising up---

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --behind you.

SHAW: Well, and so I've got old young mentee right now who-- this girl, Daikerra Sweat, is gonna set the world on fire. Now she lives on Sixth Street. You know, and then the part of town, um that we talk about sometimes on the news, but there is so--and that's -- I shouldn't even say but.

BAYÈ: But yeah.--

SHAW: --And. I mean, I have to watch--

BAYÈ: --And.--

SHAW: --You have to watch our language.--

BAYÈ: --Yeah.--

SHAW: --First of all we have to watch our language.

BAYÈ: Right.

SHAW: There is no but.

BAYÈ: --(in unison with Shaw) And.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: And she is comfortable in her own skin at seventeen, eighteen years old. Can talk to anybody in a room and pressed the uh, our founder of KET. His wife is the one who connected me to her because she had to introduce her at some banquet and she did it flawlessly. And she just needs a little bit 01:29:00more practice. She just needs a little bit more exposure. Don't you know? So I took Daikerra. We had a nice little dinner and I said, You know, I've got the show coming up about workforce development and about how K-through-12 is creating these career pathways. And Frederick Douglas, Douglas, where she attends, a new high school, they have these academies set up that help kids kind of get focused on their future goals beyond high school. And she's in one that's like culinary psychology. Never heard of that. It's all about emotional eating, not emotional eating, but learning how to re-think--train your brain during your emotional spells. Right? I'm like, I don't know what that is. Sounds good. She's telling me all about this over some noodles. And I said, "Daikerra, " I call her Day Day, "why don't you come and be on this television show? We're taping it in front of a live audience." Said "I already have one kid that's gonna be in a video, but I want you standing next to me and tell your story. "What? Really?"

BAYÈ: On television?

SHAW: "On television?" You know who else was in that room, Betty? The now commissioner of education, Wayne Lewis. The now president of the Council on Postsecondary Education, Aaron Thompson. Uh, Derrick Ramsey, who was the secretary of uh, the Cabinet--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --for Education. They were all in the room and they could not wait to get to her after the show was over. And I said to one of my friends, "That's what exposure does." And even Commissioner Lewis says, "I want to keep in contact with you." Come to find out. The woman who runs the Early Childhood Development Office for the governor knew Day Day from Headstart and said, "Oh, my gosh, I haven't seen her since she was about four or five years old." And I said, "Well look at her now." Our kids are brilliant little pots of clay. You know, molded just uniquely by the master. Everything they have, every crack, 01:31:00every, every whatever. Uh, every bright spot is divinely created.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --And if we just take the time,--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --it doesn't have to be a whole classroom of them, although I like that. But I wanted, I wanted one person that I could watch mature.

BAYÈ: Um-hm. And somebody watched you.

SHAW: Right. And somebody watched me. And somebody poured into me and gave me opportunities. You know, so I have a lunch date with Day Day, you know, next week, because I want to keep--first, you want to keep them on track. You know, they get to be seniors. They get senioritis. They don't do--Okay Day. Have you done thiShaw And she's on it. I've already applied for this scholarship, that scholarship. She's already got some scholarship money the other week.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --She's on it. And so what--so she has the discipline as a, as a model for her, I have to show her I'm disciplined too. You don't hang around riff raff, you know, when you want to be the yacht.--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --Right? So, so come on now. So I need a model for her, the preparation.

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.Um-hm. Well,--

SHAW: --That's --we have an obligation to do that.

BAYÈ: --you said something about not having children.

SHAW: Yeah.

BAYÈ: And I don't have biological children.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: And my mother said to me, "Never resent or envy the ones that do. your sisters. You will have many children."

SHAW: Right? That's right.

BAYÈ: And because you don't have children. You have the time.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: Because you can get so focused on your own children.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: Till you, you don't see other people's children.

SHAW: That's right. That's right.

BAYÈ: So God has a place--

SHAW: --Yes. (nods affirmatively)--

BAYÈ: --For, for, for these--and this is why you are iconic at, at a, at a young age.--

SHAW: --Hmm--

BAYÈ: --And the idea that you don't even know who's watching you.

SHAW: Right. Right. Right.

BAYÈ: And who'll come up to you and say, You know Renee, I saw that interview--

SHAW: --Yeah. (laughs)--

BAYÈ: --in the Hall of Fame. And one of our joys in doing these 01:33:00interviews is getting the depth because--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --people see you in your glory,--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --but they don't know your story.--

SHAW: ----------??--Ain't that the truth. Right.--

BAYÈ: --So we want your story.

SHAW: Right. Right.

BAYÈ: We want your story to say, Look. This is where I come from.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: You know, and it wasn't about--

SHAW: --Up from some dirt.--

BAYÈ: --Exactly. (Shaw laughs.) Up --you know, as, as Booker T. Washington. Up from slavery.

SHAW: Right. (nods affirmatively)

BAYÈ: You know, that kind of thing. But-- and I guess as we wind down,--

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --Renee. Your final thoughts about Kentucky.

SHAW: --Um-hm.--

BAYÈ: --Your hopes--

SHAW: --Um-hm--

BAYÈ: --for Kentucky. And your hopes-- I'd like you to talk about. The women of Kentucky--

SHAW: --Hmm--

BAYÈ: --who are still underrepresented,--

SHAW: --Hmm--

BAYÈ: --and still carrying a lot of the burden and not getting a lot of the credit.

SHAW: Oh. Woo.--

BAYÈ: --Just some.

SHAW: Woo.

BAYÈ: And I--and we're all emotional. I could see you. (Shaw laughs) 01:34:00I mean it. Like your heart is just laid out on the table.--

SHAW: I'm sorry. I try not to be. Uh --

BAYÈ: --No, no. It doesn't--no. This is because-- this is what we call authenticity.

SHAW: Right. Right. You know--

BAYÈ: What's your hopes for this state.

SHAW: Right? I think I have a love hate affair with Kentucky. I think a lot of black people do. Even maybe with the South in general, you know, even though this is all I've ever known. Um. It's not just a political wind that I want to see change in Kentucky. That, that doesn't matter--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm--

SHAW: --so much to me. I just want us to, I just want to see us have some common values about appreciation of other people. Appreciation about that we all are imports or transplants or immigrants in some capacity. That if we really are filled of faith, whether we're progressive or whether we're 01:35:00conservative, that there is no co opting God for your own agenda, political or personal. That if you really are driven by your faith, then what does God and Jesus teach us about how we should treat our brothers and sisters, whether they are native born or foreign born? I think that's one thing. We have an intractable, seemingly intractable problem with poverty in the southeastern and eastern portion of our state. I mean those counties have been, been persistently poor, forty or fifty of them, since Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty. Right? And we don't seem to be moving the needle, in fact, seem like it's getting worse. They don't you have clean water? So we have to think to ourselves, why would we brag about the progress of a state when so many citizens have brown water coming out of their taps, where they're boiling water or they can't wash their clothes because the water is filthier than the clothes they're trying to clean?

BAYÈ: Hmm

SHAW: I mean we have to reconcile that we've still got some serious issues and we just can't say they're black and white. They're all shades of gray and we just can't say it's eastern Kentucky and, well, it's always gonna be that way. I think we have to say as a state, here's what we're committed to doing. And it's not always pro-business, it's pro-people, that there should not be any policy that trumps the welfare of its people. I don't know how you get there. I think if we had the answer to that, we would already be there.

BAYÈ: Um-hm.

SHAW: Right? But I think-- I see a young generation of people. Who are not motivated purely by money making. I do-- you know, we talk about millennials and the ones that come after them, as, you know, being more self-centered or they're more detached from community. I see that pulling away. I see them being more engaged. I see them wanting to be social entrepreneurs, philanthropic 01:37:00entrepreneurs. I see that. And I think our hope is in them, as it always is. For them to show us the way, just as a child would teach,--them-- these who are now coming up, will show us the correct way. When it comes to women, I think we are making strides. Um. You know, it's sad that we haven't had another female governor since Martha Lane, that we haven't had a black female senator since George Davis Powers, that it took Attica Scott to become a state representative, black female since Eleanor Jordan in the early 2000's. If we keep score based on, you know, moving the Abacus one point at a time, it can be discouraging. But we look at what these women who are in these positions are able to do. You can look at education right now and there are three black men who are over the most significant government bureaucracies of education in this state, Aaron Thompson, CPE, Derrick Ramsey, the Cabinet for Education and Workforce and 01:38:00Commissioner Wayne Lewis, the Department of Education. All three black men. Now, that's something that we're celebrating. Now, we just can't say, Get more people with more melanin, the problems go away. Right? Because we don't know their politics, but we do know that they come from a place where they know the struggles of the people they're trying to serve. They know the educational disparities and inequities. They know that the achievement gap is not just black or white, that it's also rural. It's poverty. They know those things. Now it's incumbent upon them, but they have those positions to do something with it. And what comes after them, who comes after them, you know, will be determined by how they manage the awesome responsibility they have.

But each of us, each woman-- there is a little group I have called Not the Only One in the Room. Three of us created it a few years ago because we saw so many women in central Kentucky, Lexington, who we just didn't see ever, at 01:39:00anything. And we would be in these rooms by ourselves as the only one. So sometimes it's doing things that aren't necessarily so strategic academically or whatever. It's about creating a social network, a sense of community. I mean, we have to also be about that business--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --and saying, You know, there is a sister who just started at UK from California. Well, you know, she's on the struggle bus--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm--

SHAW: --trying to figure out Kentucky.

BAYÈ: Yeah (laughs)

SHAW: How do we bring her in?--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --How do we show her--

BAYÈ: ----------??--

SHAW: --that she has value, even though she may not feel that when she goes in the classroom?--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm--

SHAW: --I mean, there are just some good common day--common sense things we can do to help build us up. And we never know in ten or fifteen years how women of color and other women will emerge in this state. I do believe that we're on the cusp of it. And we'll see it. I'll see it in my lifetime.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm--

SHAW: --I believe I'll see it in my lifetime.

BAYÈ: Well, you know what they say. So long as you call their names.

SHAW: Right.

BAYÈ: They live.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: So long as you can say Georgia Powers's name.--

SHAW: --Right.

BAYÈ: So long as Mae Street Kidd.

SHAW: Yeah.

BAYÈ: So long as we can remember Eleanor Jordan.--

SHAW: --Um-hm--

BAYÈ: So long as we can keep holding up--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --the Anne Bradens,--

SHAW: --Yes. Anne Braden. Yeah--

BAYÈ: -- the courageous, as you call it, accomplices.

SHAW: --That's right.

BAYÈ: --Um. Who made a choice--

SHAW: --That's right.--

BAYÈ: --to side with the oppressed and to, and to press that battle (Shaw nods affirmatively) and didn't have to. So long as you call their names--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --they live. Well Renee Michelle Shaw. (Shaw laughs) You are, I said, so much representative of where you come from. S:? Um-hm.

BAYÈ: You have represented Portland, Tennessee (Shaw laughs) well--

SHAW: --Thank you--

BAYÈ: --and your mother and your father--

SHAW: --Yeah. ----------??--

BAYÈ: --and they live to see it.

SHAW: Yes. Thank you God.--

BAYÈ: --They live to see it. (Shaw nods affirmatively) And many times, you know what they say. You plant the seeds--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --for trees that you never get to sit under.

SHAW: That's right.

BAYÈ: And so you're sitting under somebody else's tree,--

SHAW: --(nods affirmatively) That's right.--

BAYÈ: --but you're throwing out some seeds.--

SHAW: --Yeah.--

BAYÈ: --So I want to thank you for giving us this time today.

SHAW: --Oh thank you.--

BAYÈ: --and for being so authentic.--

SHAW: --Thank you Betty.--

SHAW: --And talking about the work that you do and letting people see the humanity behind the journalists.--

SHAW: --Right. Right--

BAYÈ: --And that's what's wonderful about these interviews, is that we get to see--

SHAW: --Right.--

BAYÈ: --your backstory.

SHAW: Right. Right.--

BAYÈ: --Even as we celebrate your glory.

SHAW: Right.--

BAYÈ: --So thank you.--

SHAW: --And there's, there is more work in the vineyard to do.

BAYÈ: That's right.--

SHAW: --More work to do.--

BAYÈ: --And Day Day will be. (both laugh)

SHAW: --And Day Day will be there. She certainly will. And thank you, Betty.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm.--

SHAW: --Uh, uh, you know, I'm at your feet. You are an inspiration to me and um taught me from a distance how to do things the right way and how to be a, an ace journalist. And I'm still trying to strive--

BAYÈ: --And neither one of us planned to stay in Kentucky. (laughs)

SHAW: Ain't that the truth? (laughs)

BAYÈ: Well, you, you set your buckets down where you lay (??).--

SHAW: --That's right. That's right.--

BAYÈ: --Um-hm--

SHAW: --That's right.

BAYÈ: Okay.--

SHAW: --Well I'm sorry. I went way longer than--

BAYÈ: --We're good.