Interview with Howard Fortune, March 6, 2019

Joanna Hay: Okay, we're rolling so, Betty if you want to read the intro.

Betty Barr: This video is an interview with Mr. Howard Fortune of Mount Sterling, Kentucky. We are in the Montgomery County History Museum in Downtown Mount Sterling. My name is Betty Barr, the other interviewers are Bill Hinkebein, Don Kleier and Art Lander. The videographer is Joanna Hay from Joanna Hay Productions.

Barr: Howard. You have been a student of the handmade bait casting reels that were made in Kentucky starting in the mid 1800s. Tell us about how you got interested in these reels.

Fortune: Well, I don't know. I've always been interested in fishing and I started collecting lures first and they had one of the first lure shows over at Paris, Kentucky about 1979 and a guy by the name of Oscar Chapman, he was living in Versailles, he brought in a number three Meek and Milam. I guess that's the first one I ever saw, of course it wasn't for sale. Anyways, that's what got my interest and I got to talking to him and next thing I know he's told me about a guy in Frankfort that had a reel named Mason Vansant. Mason ran an antique shop down there called the Mole Hole and I went down there and I think Bill's got that reel today, you know, it's a Number 4 Meek and Milam. Anyway, that's probably one of the first reels I ever bought.

Barr: Did you take it apart and study it or did you just collect it?

Fortune: No, I took it apart, you know, you always take apart and clean them some. You know, it seems like the reel works better. The best part of that story was after I paid him for it, he said, "You know what I gave for that at a yard sale?" I said, "No". He said "I gave 6 dollars for it". And I said "Well, go buy another one, I'll buy another one from you". (Laughs)

Barr: Those are the stories we love. That's why you're here, you're full of these stories. (Laughs)

Fortune: I'm full of them, yea.

Barr: Did you ever use them to fish?

Fortune: No, they backlashed too much. (Laughs) I don't think they ever cast with them, I think they just kinda lobbed baits out and drug them with the line on them from a boat or something, I don't know. But, I could never do any good with them. Of course, the ones with just a crank on them, they were out balanced anyways, you couldn't cast with them anyway.

Barr: What was your goal as a collector?

Fortune: Get every Kentucky reel I ever saw.

Barr: So, you just found as many as you could and collected them. Tell us how you would find them. What was your main source?

Fortune: I run ads in the papers, yard sales, flea markets ... A lot of times you could just talk to somebody and next thing you know they could put you on the line of somebody who had one or something, you know. I found a lot of reels that way. The Snyder reels, I knew George Snyder back in the 50s, you know, when I was just a kid. He used to go to gun shows with Nick Hadden’s dad, you know. He told me about the reels at that time, you know, I didn't have any interest in them then, but that's where I first heard about the Snyder reels, you know.

Barr: When did you buy that first reel? That Meek and Milam Number 4?

Fortune: Probably about 1980.

Barr: So you collected from 1980 until just recently.

Fortune: Yea.

Barr: And was there a focus to your collection at all?

Fortune: No.

Barr: What was your favorite reel?

Fortune: No doubt, the Number 5 Sage, or not Sage, uh, I've got a 5 Sage, a Number 5 Snyder probably. It took me 9 years to get that reel.

Barr: What was it about that reel that ...

Fortune: Crown jewel of the reel collecting, I guess. Everybody wanted it. I probably heard of 100 Snyders and there's about 12 known that I know for sure, that is a guess. Everybody had a ball handle back then and they'd say it was a Snyder.

Barr: Why was it so hard to get this reel? The person who owned it wouldn't part with it?

Fortune: Well, it was a family thing, you know.

Barr: So they finally relinquished and you were able to get this reel.

Fortune: Yea, I guess she needed some money. I don't know what happened. I had 6 big coin silver table spoons made by George Snyder, which they were in the deal, you know. She got those.

Barr: So, you did a lot of trading if you wanted ...

Fortune: Yea, anyway you could, you know.

Barr: What was your most interesting find? Or your best field story?

Fortune: That'd be hard to say. I don't know, right off. All of them were really.

Hinkebein: Howard, can you tell us about who first started making the reels and in what progression or chronological order did the other significant reel makers come into their own? As in, it was Snyder, then maybe JF and BF and then to BC Milam is that the order of significance or chronological?

Fortune: Probably, you know, Sage was supposed to be in there and Hardman supposedly made some reels in the 1840s, which I don't know whether they were or not. According to the Henshall book they were, which I think you've got one. I mean, I think there's a lot of reels rarer than the Snyder. The Hardman's, you know, there's only been two of those ever found. You take the Dalton reel. There’s only been two of those Daltons ever found, so you know so people just don't know about them or something, I don't know.

Hinkebein: They’re just more hard to come by.

Barr: One of the reel makers was here in Mount Sterling and that was Dr. William Van Antwerp. He was a dentist here. Did you look for his reels specifically?

Fortune: Yea, I looked for them and the only one I ever found was at a flea market. It was made by Thomas Chubb in Post Mill, Vermont I think, but some of the first Van Antwerp reels, I guess he made them here in town. He was really a gunsmith, that's what he was and they called him a doctor because he could pull teeth, I guess. (Laughs) I think the history museum in Frankfort's got some of his reels. Some of the first ones.

Hinkebein: So, he made that for Chubb? Is that the lure maker? Thomas Chubb.

Fortune: No. As far as I know he just made reels. He may have made some. I don't know. But that's where the reels were made in. There's about 4 or 5 different models of the thing.

Hinkebein: Of the Van Antwerp. And was there a Henshall/Van Antwerp?

Fortune: That's the same one.

Hinkebein: It is. So, Henshall had Van Antwerp make reels for him?

Fortune: He was the instigator of Van Antwerp making the reels, you know.

Barr: Many of the reels were engraved. They were hand engraved. Did you seek those and once you had one that was engraved, did you pursue the story of the owner? The person who's name was one the reel and the date.

Fortune: I didn't really go after an engraved reel, but you know, I did try to find out who they were most the time which you very seldom ever did, you know.

Barr: How would you do that? How would you go about trying to figure out who's name was on it?

Fortune: Word of mouth, really.

Barr: Okay. Because there are people who would go to the library and search archives looking for the history of that person.

Hinkebein: And of course, with the internet today, it's fairly easy to just google up names ...

Barr: Now it's much easier than when Howard had them.

Hinkebein: Absolutely.

Barr: Sometimes we are haunted by the one that got away. Do you have one or two that got away?

Fortune: Oh, I had several that got away. (Laughs) I tried my best to get that little Number 1 B.F. Meek, you know. It had the gold click buttons on it. I think it wound up in some collection in Florida, I think's got it now, but it was crated around two or three times, you know. There's another Snyder that was in the family up in Ohio, or Pennsylvania or somewhere, that one of the Snyder family's got that had the jewels, Henshall mentioned it in his book that it was jeweled and she had that reel. She told me it had little gray stones on each end of it, but they wouldn't even talk about selling it. I guess they've still got it. I don't know. That's been probably 20 years ago when I talked to her about that. (Laughs)

Barr: Who was your favorite reel maker? Who do you think was exceptionally talented and innovative?

Fortune: Gayle.

Barr: Clarence Gayle. Tell us about why you feel that way.

Fortune: Well, I don't know. I found out about him through Mr. Gee. Alan Gee, you know Alan Gee worked for him and he made ... I found one reel one of his daughters had that was a Number 2, well actually it was marked Number 2 but it was a Number 1 and then one of his other daughters had a Number 3 which was actually a left handed reel. He made a reel, according to Alan Gee, for President Roosevelt. And said he worked on that thing for months, said it was perfect. He sent it to him and never did get a response back about it. Mr. Gayle was a Republican (laughs). He never did think too much of Roosevelt after that he said.

Hinkebein: I wonder if he received it.

Fortune: They don't know. I don't know whatever happened to it, nobody knows where it is.

Hinkebein: Yea, I've never heard of that one.

Fortune: That was a story Mr. Gee told me. But he told me, the way he works on these good reels, he said he may have been making 5 cents an hour. That's how much time he put in them.

Barr: Well, many of his reels, he didn't make that many handmade, but they were presentation reels. They were gifts.

Fortune: Yea, I'm talking about the Kentucky Style now, I'm not talking about the aluminum raised pillars, that was more ...

Hinkebein: So, Howard, who are the significant Kentucky reel makers? What are their names?

Fortune: Snyder, Meek and Milam JF and BF Meek, Sage, Hardman, Deally, Fullilove, I don't know. Even down to Nick Hadden is the last reel maker I know of in Kentucky. (Laughs)

Hinkebein: That's the list that we know of. Throw in Dalton.

Fortune: Yea.

Barr: Well, we cannot have a discussion about Kentucky reels without without talking about the lathe that was used and you had that lathe at one time. Tell us about the history of it.

Fortune: Well, I think Mr. Allen Gee put me on Mr. Rodman, he told me that ... He didn't really tell me he had the lathe, told me he'd find some reels down there. So I went down there to his house, of course he was way up in years then. We got to talking and finally he said, "Let's go down in the basement". And there was a treadmill sitting there in the corner and he looked at that and he had a picture there with him and he said "Do you know what that is?" And I said, "Well, it looks like a treadmill" and he said "Well, that's the one that the lathe sat on. He had a picture of it. My son up in Connecticut has that lathe right now. There's a guy in Oklahoma that is trying to purchase it. And I asked him "Is it for sale?” and he said "As far as I know it is". As soon as I got home, I called him and he told me what he wanted for it and I said "You've got a check in the mail today". So, you've got to wait a day. If it hadn't of been, it would have wound up in Oklahoma.

Barr: Do you know any history of that lathe? Do you know when it might have been made and where?

Fortune: Well, I've heard it came out of Swiss-made and I've heard that J.F. and B.F. made it. I don't know. It had numbered screws and everything in it. Nobody really knows for sure.

Barr: When would you say it was dated.

Fortune: Well, probably 1830s.

Hay: What is the significance of that lathe? For someone that doesn't understand how reels are made?

Fortune: Ma'am?

Hay: Why is it so special, that lathe?

Fortune: Well, the most desirable reels in Kentucky were made on it, I guess. Made by J.F. and B.F. you know. And another thing that was good about it, it belonged to Milam and when Milam passed away in 1927 I think his shop sat empty for about 3 or 4 years, well Mr. Gayle wanted the parts and stuff and Mr. Rodman was working in the bank there where the shop was. So, from what I can find out, the Gayles and Milam didn't ever get along real good (laughs) and Mr. Gayle got Mr. Rodman to make the deal for him to get all the parts of the lathe and of course the lathe went with it, you know. He saw that old lathe and he said, "Well, I don't want that piece of junk. You can have this". He said, "Milam had to be a better reel maker, anybody can make a reel on that thing". Anyway, Mr. Rodman said he had the lathe for years, you know and the story is before the war that the government wanted Mr. Gayle to do some parts for him. He didn't know what they were for. He got this old lathe back to make the parts and come to find out later that he made parts on that old lathe that was used in the bomb that was bombed on Japan. Mr. Gayle said, "You know, they stole my reel patents on these fly reels. I got even with the SOBs anyway". (Laughs) Anyway Betty Barr's got it now, I guess it's got a good home.

Barr: You know W.G. Farmer, he worked for Gayle and put together a few reels.

Fortune: Mr. Farmer was a gunsmith in Lexington. I knew him personally. He started the gun show over in Paris Kentucky in the early 60s and he was one of the members of it and as far as I know when Gayle died in 1947 or 8, they sold his shop and Mr. Farmer bought all these parts. I think he put some reels together, but I don't think he ever made anything that ever worked for Gayle. Of course, those parts got jacked around all over the country. He had them for years. When he passed away a guy by the name of Wyatt in Georgetown bought them and he couldn't get rid of them and they wound up with a guy in Shelbyville bought them nad he couldn't get rid of them, so he donated a lot of them to the museum for a big tax write off. I guess they are scattered everywhere. The museum has a lot of them that he donated. They had an end cap down there with W.G. Farmer on it in Lexington Kentucky, but I don't know whatever happened to it. It disappeared for some reason or another, but I've never seen a reel that was put together by him. He did put some together, which he probably did.

Barr: Did you ever work on any of the reels?

Fortune: No. All I did was taken them apart and clean them or something like that, you know.

Barr: Tell us what you know about Nick Hadden and Dillender. Tony Dillender.

Fortune: I never did know Tony real well. He made some little reels, but I knew Nick. I was raised up by Nick. Of course, Nick's Dad, he was a rural mail carrier and I got to know him when I was a kid and when I got a little older, I started going to gun shows with him. I don't know when I got to fooling with the reels. I brought a little reel with me today that was the first reel that Nick made, you know. It got him started, so he made about 50 reels in his lifetime. Of course, Nick passed away in February 10th, 2015, so ... Anyway, I think one of his grandsons are going to take up the progression, once he gets a little better with it, you know.

Barr: Did you grow up here in Mount Sterling?

Fortune: Me or Nick?

Barr: You.

Fortune: No, I was in the country. I was raised on a farm out here on Harper's Ridge Road right next to Old Morgan Station out there.

Barr: And so your family were farmers?

Fortune: Oh yea.

Barr: Is that what you did for a living?

Fortune: That's another thing. Paydays were too far apart, so I got into construction work about 1965 and that's what I did for the rest of my life, up until I retired or quit. (Laughs)

Hinkebein: So, did you grow up fishing?

Fortune: Do what?

Hinkebein: Was fishing a favorite past time of yours?

Fortune: Well, I guess I was a right smart of a groundhog hunter and fisherman at one time.

Hinkebein: Wonderful,

Fortune: Nick Hadden ... Nick's dad made me a custom made rifle, you know, that you could hit a ten cent piece with it at 100 yards every shot. I couldn't today, because I can't see that good, but anyways, he did do some good work, you know and it was ... Nick's mother, she was an artist and I think they've got a display down here at the arts center right now, her artwork. So Nick and her were really talented.

Hay: So, did you stay mostly in Montgomery County? Was that where you grew up as well as where you had your construction career?

Fortune: Well, I just worked at a construction company. I worked in Indiana and Ohio mostly and Kentucky. Those were the only states I ever worked in.

Hay: Tell us what life was like when you were a boy out in the country.

Fortune: Well, you worked everyday for one thing. (Laughs) My dad started us working when we were big enough to do anything, you know. You picked corn, you picked up the corn that dropped, you picked up tobacco leaves, we milked cows. You worked everyday.

Hay: And how did guns and fishing and how did that fit in, you know, these were your tools for survival as well as recreation, is that correct?

Fortune: Well, that's just normal, you know. Hunting, during the hunting season and stuff, you know, rabbits, squirrels and of course groundhogs, they were more pests than anything is the reason you got rid of groundhogs.

Barr: When you would go around to Indiana, Ohio and Kentucky doing construction work, would you use that as a chance to ask around about reels? Were you able to pick up reels that way?

Fortune: No, I've asked, but I don't think I ever found anything that way.

Hinkebein: Howard, let me ask you. You grew up in farming, fishing and hunting like so many of us Kentuckians, but you also have a fascination for history and things that are made in Kentucky as I have understood it from our many conversations. When you first discovered these Kentucky reels and took an interest in collecting them and finding more, were there many collectors at that time previous? Or was it a new thing to start collecting these reels amongst you and maybe some of your friends?

Fortune: I think it's something that's really just getting started.

Hinkebein: And that was in the 70s.

Fortune: Yea, of course some of the old guys in Frankfort back years ago, you know, probably collected a few of them or accumulated them, but, you know, that's all I know.

Hinkebein: So, I would believe it was the mid to late 80s when the organized fishing and lure collector clubs and the reel collector clubs were organized.

Fortune: Well, the fishing lure collectors club started about 1976 and Mike Nogay started the Old Reel Collectors some time in the 80s, I don't remember when it was, but I was probably one of the charter members then at the time.

Barr: How did you know Mike Nogay. How did you get started at the Old Reel Collectors Association as a charter member?

Fortune: I don't know, I guess through the fishing lure collectors, you know, word of mouth. I don't remember. He called me and said he was going to start O.R.C.A. and I said I'd be interested in being a member of it and it went from there.

Barr: And that association led you to get some of the reels that you ended up with is knowing some of the other ... It was a network of collectors.

Fortune: Well, you know, contacts are one of your best sources of finding anything. The more people you know, the more stuff you're going to find, you know.

Hinkebein: So, I guess that was also the beginning of when there would be collectors shows and the first shows were starting the be organized and you probably went to some of those early reel collecting and lure collecting shows.

Fortune: Yea, I met Mr. Stewart now, that was up in Akron, Ohio, I guess is where it was. I think a guy by the name of Dick Wilson, put that show on and he was there, Mr. Stewart was and Ronnie Fritz and some of the reel collectors there and that's where I saw most of the reels and that was the first year I went was in Paris KY and that was about 1978 or 9. But the only reels came in over there were the ones that Mr. Chapman brought in. I don't know how long Mr. Stewart, Ronnie Gast and some of those guys had been collecting, quite a while, you know.

Barr: Frank Stewart was the primary author of the book on the fishing reel makers of Kentucky and he spent quite a bit of time here doing his research. What was your relationship with Frank Stewart.

Fortune: I think he was a fine, old gentleman, that's all you know. Actually, what got the lure book started, Steve Vernon put out a book on fishing reels, you know, patents. And I bought one of the books and I called Steve and asked him, would he be interested in doing a Kentucky fishing reel book, that's what started it. After 10 years, I finally just gave up, I said you all have most of the pictures in it that didn't give anyone credit, they were my reels. I just didn't want any credit for any of it.

Hinkebein: So that book was published in 1990 and that was probably the first organized piece of work chronicling all the reel makers and all the reels.

Fortune: Probably. There was a guy, I think Al Munger I think he put out a book. I tell you another guy that put out a book years ago, was a guy named Warren Shepard. He didn't do a book, it was a ... I forget the name of it, but anyway, he had some reels that's another thing when I first found out about Kentucky reels, you know. And then his wife, she went by the name of Mary Keifhoffer and I don't know what ever happened to those reels. I think the book's name is called Sported Collectables or something, you know. And there's different stuff in it.

Barr: Those reels makers also had some other things associated with their business, like spoons and catalogs and other items. Did you collect any of those?

Fortune: I had several pieces of Snyder's stuff. I also had a dagger, about a 6 inch blade dagger that Snyder made. Or supposed to have made, anyway.

Barr: What were the other items besides spoons from the Snyders?

Fortune: He made all kinds of ... you know julep cup, ladles, but as far as watches, I don't think they ever made a watch, you know. These old jewelers, they have what you call watch papers. They were the same size as the watch and when they worked on the watch, they put that watch paper inside that case there. And that's where a lot of people get to thinking that they made them, when actually they didn't. Most of your real old watches were all made in Switzerland.

Hinkebein: So, what you're saying is you speculate that the early Kentucky reel makers were jewelers and silversmiths, rather than watch makers, but they could repair the watches.

Fortune: I think that's what they did, yea.

Hinkebein: And thus, they took the gear works, mechanics of Swiss watches and put that application to create the Kentucky multiplying reels.

Fortune: I think you could buy parts, a bunch of parts and I think maybe he put watches together, you know, I don't know. But there's no proof of it. A piece of metal lays there and you can write anything you want so maybe they put their names on it (laughs). I don't know if they really made one or not, you know.

Hinkebein: So, what did fisherman use before these Kentucky made multiplying reels?

Fortune: Cane pole, I guess. (Laughs) It's what I used for years.

Hinkebein: A net.

Kleier: Howard, I wanted to ask you, and we've touched on this before, but when I hold one of those old reels. I'm struck by the beauty and how precise it is for the time. What really attracted you ... I mean, there are so many things you could collect. You can't collect everything, well maybe you have tried, but I'm just wondering what you thought about these reels that just said this is it, I'm going after every one of these I can find.

Fortune: I think it's the precision work, how they were put together, you know.

Kleier: Because you were in construction trade and you've seen great work and I'm sure you've seen not so great work.

Fortune: The work we did was concrete pouring work, we didn't have to be real good, you know, all we had to do is hold concrete.

Kleier: A lot different than a reel.

Hay: Opposite of a reel (laughs).

Hinkebein: What were some of the other things that you have collected?

Fortune: Well, I guess I started out when I was big enough to walk hunting arrowheads, you know, I was raised on a farm and you'd find a few of them here and there and then I was down on the creek there one time fishing and I found an old empty cartridge case and that thing fascinated me and next thing you know I went to collecting cartridges. I probably had 400 to 600 different cartridges all the way back to the civil war and before, you know. I don't know, I kind of lost interest in them. The government stopped ... you couldn't ship this, you couldn't do this in the mail. Railroad quit running through here, that's the only way you could ship anything was through freight, you know. So I sold my collection to a guy in Pennsylvania and that's where I got a little bit of the money to start collecting reels.

Kleier: When did you sell you cartridge collection?

Fortune: About 1978 or 9 something like that.

Kleier: So, that's right around the time you bought your first reel.

Fortune: I know there was one cartridge in there that was one of a kind. What they call a 58 Schubarth or a Gallager and Gladding. It had a 58 mini ball in it. It was an egg shaped cartridge which was inside primed and I think I gave something like $400 for that thing, back in the 80s, maybe in the 70s. A couple of years ago, I had a list from a guy out in Arizona, one of them brought $8500. That's the difference it brought and I didn't hardly get that much out of my whole collection, you know. That's good enough for that.

Hay: Well, it sounds like you had collecting in your blood, you just were born to collect.

Fortune: Well, now all I collect now is dust. (Laughs)

Hay: Was there anyone else in your family who collected?

Fortune: No, far as I know, they thought I was a nut, I guess. You know, "What do you want with that old stuff" you know, that was the way my brother and dad was. "You don't need that old junk".

Hinkebein: Well, Howard, you were the right one to collect this stuff because look what it's come to. But, tell us also, you collected or still collect company money.

Fortune: Well, it's coal script. You know the coal companies, they used it. It always fascinated me. Somebody would crawl back in a hole like that. Actually, they were slaves, I mean they had to ... They drew that script to live and most of the time the company's store was a whole lot higher than the general store and if you didn't draw a script, they would fire you. There was no unions back then. There was one guy who told me when he was a kid said there was two pictures that hung on the wall that was Jesus Christ and John L. Lewis. (Laughs). That was the main person for them.

Barr: Did you study history growing up? You're more of a historian.

Fortune: No more than I had to. (Laughs)

Barr: This is all on the job training. As you went along you studied these things and learned about them.

Kleier: Howard, were you born here in Mount Sterling? I know you said you grew up on a farm.

Fortune: I was born here in Mount Sterling.

Barr: Alright, I have to ask the ultimate question. When we collect, all of us who collect, make mistakes ... Talking to an audience who might be interested in collecting some of the Kentucky reels or other things, what advice would you give a collector?

Fortune: Patience.

Kleier: That's good advice. (Laughs)

Barr: Definitely. I have a list of some of the reels that you owned and I know there's good stories with some of them. Are there any in particular you want to talk about? Or that have a good story associated with it?

Fortune: Center piece of any reel collection is a big Snyder which, when I mean patience, it took me 9 years to get that reel.

Barr: How about that first real that you got from Mason Vansant in Frankfort.

Fortune: Well, Mr. Chapman, like I said, I got to knowing him at the first lure show and I guess he told me about it. He found out about it some way or another.

Barr: Would you call him on the phone or write him a letter.

Fortune: No, I went down there. He had an antique shop, you know, in his basement and it was inside the Capitol building down there where he lived.

Barr: So, now we would go on eBay or look online or call somebody we know, then you just went where ever you thought the reel was and investigated.

Hinkebein: So you would network, meet people, go to antique shops, maybe flea markets to find reels. And were you able to find some at flea markets and yard sales?

Fortune: I don't think I ever found anything at a yard sale. I found some stuff at flea markets, you know.

Kleier: Howard, did you ever see a reel that you thought, wait a minute, this has got Snyder's name on it or Meek's name on it, but this doesn't look authentic. This looks like maybe somebody's trying to pull a fast one.

Fortune: No, I don't think so. I've seen a reel one time that ... I've got the stamp, or had it, I don't know where it's at now. It says Elkhorn. Sylvanus Meek I think had that stamp made and somebody put that name on a reel. Just an old raised pillar reel. I don't ever know what happened to it. Of course, that's the only one I ever saw and I believe it's fake.

Kleier: Did Sylvanus ... Have you ever seen a reel you thought he made?

Fortune: I think Mr. Stewart had one. Had his name on it. Whether he made it or not, I don't know. He didn't use this stamp on it.

Hinkebein: So, I think what we're leaning toward Howard, is that with the rise of the collectables and the rise of Kentucky reels as being collectables, there's been a lot of money thrown around to purchase these reels and there has been some fakes created. I personally have come across a reel that was stamped B.F. Meck. M E C K. (Laughs)

Fortune: Well, I bought that. I had that reel at one time.

Hinkebein: What about that one?

Fortune: I found it at a flea market, a guy had it. Who knows, you know?

Hinkebein: So, none of us know about a man named B.F. Meck. It seems like an obvious fake of B.F. Meek and so somebody was trying to make ... cash in on them.

Fortune: These people here in Kentucky have that name Meck, you know. A weatherman, I think, on TV. That's his name, so.

Hinkebein: Maybe there is a real maker named B.F. Meck. (Laughs)

Fortune: It's a real name. I don't know who made it. It's not the quality that Meek made, but it's one of them.

Barr: One of the things about the reels that I find fascinating, is that once they had a faceplate, it was an effort to put it together so if there was a mistake, occasionally they'd stamp the number upside down or they'd scratch out a name and stamp over it.

Fortune: I think there was a Meek and Milam that was stamped over into B.C. Milam, which I think Milam did himself. It was a big number 5 or 6 sized reel I think. I think Bill, you may have that reel. That's the only one I ever saw that was over stamped. Yea. The number 2 Gayle I had which is in the Gayle family, it was actually a number 1, but it was marked number 2. Mrs. Dorothy Norman, that was Gayle's daughter, I bought that reel from her myself.

Barr: And you said that you had a reel that was made by Gayle that was left handed. All the other reels, as far as we know, were right handed reels, is that correct?

Fortune: Far as I know, yea. But this reel was actually made for his daughter, you know. I also had another reel that I got from Ronnie Fritz. I trade my fishing lures, that's how I got a lot of my good reels. I had a lot of underwater minnows, 700 five hookers and stuff like that which were really rare at the time. And he had this one Gayle that was made for a jeweler in Cincinnati. And it had numbered screws with dots. It's the only numbered screw Gayle I ever saw. And the Gayle family's got that reel today, you know.

Hinkebein: So, let me ask you Howard, there were reel makers, there were some Kentucky rod makers and lure makers. Is there any stand out in particular as excellent over others? Probably all decent quality products at the time.

Fortune: Gayle made lures, but that's the only one I know that ever put out anything. The older stuff, you know, there's a lot of lure makers in Kentucky. I don't think they had anything to do with the reels.

Hinkebein: And let me ask you about the reels. What were the metals used to make the reels?

Fortune: Mostly brass and German silver.

Hinkebein: What exactly is German silver?

Fortune: It's just ... Actually, there's a mine in Germany where they found it. It's got the right content, mixture of nickel and brass, I guess. And that's where it got the name from being German Silver. Actually found in Germany and once it was refined, it had that in it. I know some people call it Brazil silver. Call it all kinds of different names. It's nickel and brass is all it is. There was a few reels made out of silver, coin silver. I think it was a number 6 J.F. B.F. Meek that somebody had at one time. It was coin silver. So, I don't know. I never did own one.

Hinkebein: Yea, that's in Frank's book. It's beautiful. I wonder who owns that now.

Fortune: Two or three guys had it that I know of. One guy in Frankfort had it ... Louisville had it and there was a collector in Florida, I think's got it now. I don't know.

Barr: The clicks were made of steel, but there were a few reels where they used a turkey quill or a bird quill for the click. Did you ever have one?

Fortune: No.

Barr: Do you know about those?

Fortune: No. I know they were in some of the first ... the J.F. B.F. Meeks I think they were supposed to be in them. As far as having them, I don't remember if I had one or not.

Hay: What is the click? Can you explain that to someone that doesn't know?

Fortune: Well, the reel maker called it an alarm, you know, I guess you were fishing and something started pulling the line out that click would, you know ... And you also had what they called a drag put on them and it tightened up the spool where the line was hard to pull off or something.

Hay: Can you describe that mechanism? That does that?

Fortune: No. That's all there is to it, I reckon. It's got two buttons on the side of the reel. I know there was a Gayle reel ... Mr. Gayle made some reels that were real narrow, you know, where you didn't need to level wind them. Mr. Gee had that one he mounted it wrong and made it left handed instead of right handed. He had that reel, I don't know today where it went. I never could buy it. He didn't want to sell it, so.

Barr: Howard, did you ever collect any of the rods that were used back then? The lancewood or?

Fortune: No, I never did see any of them. There was an antique dealer in Georgetown that had a rod, handle I guess and it was marked G.S. he said it was George Snyder and whether it was or not, I don't know. That's the only one I ever saw. Of course, I'm sure they all had rods, but I never did see one.

Barr: Do you think they were just cane poles that they bought?

Fortune: Well, a lot of them I think were hickory. A lot of them were just cane poles with guides taped on them or something, I don't know.

Barr: How did they attach the foot of the reels back in the mid 1800s? How did they attach it to ...

Fortune: Most of them were wrapped on with leather. Some of them were screwed. You know, a lot of your old reels, you'll find have holes in them. Where I think they actually screwed them to the rod.

Barr: Did you ever see one attached to a rod?

Fortune: No. There's a guy, I think he’s in Lexington, that's got some of the Snyder reels that still has the leather still on them.

Hinkebein: In the Clay family.

Fortune: I think they're in the Frank Stewart book. I think there's some pictures of them in it. That's the only one I know that still has the leather still on them, how they were strapped on.

Kleier: Howard, I'm sure in your collecting years that you've probably have seen a reel that maybe the handle was missing or a screw was missing. Did you ever just say well, I'm not going to buy that one because ... Or if it was a Kentucky reel, you were going to get it regardless.

Fortune: I'd buy one, whatever. Most times Nick Hadden could make whatever you needed for him if you had a pattern to go by. If you didn't have a pattern, he'd make one himself. (Laughs)

Kleier: Did Nick Hadden collect reels himself or was he mainly just ...

Fortune: He collected Abergast stuff: Jitterbugs and minnow baits and stuff like that. That's what he had. That's all his collection. Before the reels, he never did have any.

Barr: What led you to collect the reels instead of the lures. It seems lure collectors, there are many more of them, of course there are a lot more lures out there. What was the ...

Fortune: I don't know. I think the reels were harder to get a hold of. Like I said, they were precision made and they were made in Kentucky. That's another thing. That's the reason you wanted them. Lures are made all over the country, you know. Most of the lures are made in Michigan.

Hay: Why were they made in the Kentucky? What's the significance of Kentucky? Why did that evolve that way?

Fortune: I guess Snyder is supposedly who made the first ones. I guess that's how they got the name. I don't know.

Hay: Shall we take a quick break? Let's take a pause.

Art Lander: Was that a counter balance with a weight on the other side?

Fortune: That's so you could cast with them. Had the counterweight on them. See, with this crank you try to cast one of them and that thing goes out of balance, then you couldn't cast with them.

Lander: Oh yea, with the counter balance, it would help with casting right?

Barr: Ok, I'm writing this down for questions. Do you have any others Art?

Fortune: We put that show on down in Frankfort in 1987. There was a Hardman reel in there. It had a regular crank on it that Mr. Gayle had put on it. Two knobs. And it belonged to one of the governors in Kentucky at one time I think owned that reel.

Lander: Weatherby or something?

Fortune: Maybe that's who had it, I don't remember.

Lander: You know on some of these reels, something else that I noticed. You really can crank them either way. There's no guide that comes back and forth or whatever we call in a modern reel. A line guide or whatever. There's no line guide, so you could mount them with a crank on the left or mount them with the crank on the right.

Fortune: I think a lot of them went under the rod, too. Instead of on top. Mr. Gee told me that Mr. Gayle never would talk about putting a level wind on one of them. Said a man too ornery to keep his line level—-That’s the reason he made those real narrow spool ones. You didn't need a level wind on those, you know. Did you ever get one of them, Ms. Betty? One of the real narrow spools?

Barr: Yes. I think we have a couple of them.

Fortune: I'm talking about one like I showed you the picture of.

Barr: Not the double one, but yes. I think we have several of them.

Fortune: Oh ok.

Lander: About the German silver. Early ones, the sides were brass and then it went to German silver and then there's also references sometimes to nickel silver.

Fortune: That's the same as German silver.

Lander: That's the same, yea, it's kind of a generic term, right.

Fortune: See, Gayle made some reels out of hard rubber.

Kleier: Isn't that kind of your equivalent of sterling?

Lander: Well, some of the reels were made of sterling and some were coin silver also. Is there a difference between sterling and coin silver?

Fortune: Coin silver is 90 percent silver and 10 percent whatever. And sterling silver is supposed to be pure. That's the only difference I know. And it got the name coin silver from those old reel makers ... silversmiths made silver out of coin and that’s where it got the name “coin”.

Lander: And they made the spoons out of coin silver also.

Kleier: And actually it's more collectable probably than the sterling. Because they make a lot of trophies ...

Fortune: At one time I had about 30 pounds of coin silver, believe it or not. I had ladles and julep cups and I don't know what all. That's another mistake I made.

Lander: The German silver it's a harder metal than brass.

Fortune: Oh yeah. It’s got the nickel in it, that's the reason why it's harder.

Lander: Do you think they made the reels ... They went towards the nickel silver or the German silver because the reel would wear better or was it ... did they shine them up, was it kind of a vanity thing as far as shining them or was it more of a wear of the reel?

Fortune: I don't know. I know they were higher. They put out a list. I think a silver reel was probably a dollar or two higher than a brass one.

Lander: When J.F. and B.F. when they used the lathe and they were making these early reels, they were getting this brass that was imported from England or something, right?

Fortune: It had to be England.

Lander: Were they getting like bar stock or was it ... Do you know anything about that?

Fortune: I read somewhere that Snyder ran an ad in the paper in Paris, which was Hopewell at that time. He wanted to buy brass scraps. I don't think anybody manufactured brass in Kentucky or anywhere that I know of. So it probably did have to come from Europe.

Lander: If you had a thick enough piece of brass, you could take a handsaw and cut it out circular and then mount it on the lathe and smooth it up to make like a tail plate or head cap or something like that.

Fortune: You look that those real early brass reels and you'll see there's a joint in them. Where they rolled around and expanded it or something and I guess they put that in the lathe and turned it to get it down so it would be smooth.

Lander: That was something she was eluding to when she was asking you about the lathe, not so much about the lathe itself, but what one here did they use the lathe to turn.

Fortune: All of it.

Lander: The whole thing.

Fortune: Yea, they turned those plates out.

Landers: The pillars and the spool bar and the side plate.

Fortune: I think what they made first was the spool, then they fit the reel around it. I've had several B. F. Meek and none of them are the same width. They're always a little different.

Hay: We're rolling.

Hinkebein: Howard, this reel was known as the old spool reel from Henshall's exhibit at the Colombian exhibition in Chicago in 1893. Is that the general state of reels before multiplying reels were created?

Fortune: Far as I know, they called them a wench. That's about all I know about it.

Hinkebein: What is that made of?

Fortune: Wood. Probably walnut. I tell you something else they made this stuff out of was applewood. The old clock makers. That's what they made the gears out of was called fruitwood, it seemed like it lasted. Stronger or something. I don't know.

Hinkebein: Interesting. Now this reel known as the large Snyder reel. Can you tell us about that and where you came about it.

Fortune: That reel belonged to the last George Snyder that lived here in Mount Sterling which I knew personally. And I got it from his daughter. It took me about 9 years to finally get the deal. I've got a bunch of coin silver and a lot of money. But anyway ...

Hinkebein: About what year would that have been made?

Fortune: They claim about 1820, I don't know.

Hinkebein: So that's one of the early ones from the first known Kentucky reel maker.

Fortune: This reel has probably been pictured in more books than all the reels put together. (Laughs)

Hay: Why did it take 9 years? What's the story of that?

Fortune: I guess she didn't want to let it go. I don't know.

Hay: Did you pester him? Did you keep after it?

Fortune: Oh yea, I just kept letting people know that I was interested, you know.

Hay: Could you describe all of the parts. The different parts of the reel, so that someone like I could understand.

Fortune: This here would be the drag which on most of the other newer reels is all inside. This was on the outside. And this knob here, that's the spool lock. You know, it would lock the spool and this little thing here has a click in it, which I don't want to move it because you never know when these things are going to break how old they are. Some of them had agate jewels in them. I've never seen one but I know one that did. And that's about it.

Hinkebein: So, George Snyder was known as the first Kentucky reel maker. Where was he in Kentucky and what was his ... was he a fisherman, was he a mechanic? What was his profession, do we know?

Fortune: Well, he was a jeweler in Paris Kentucky, I guess. Now these holes in this thing are where two leather straps went through them or either screws the way they were fastened to the rod.

Hinkebein: Fantastic. How about this reel? This is labeled J and C Snyder. Who are they?

Fortune: Well, the J was James and C was Charles. That's about all I know about this thing. This was probably a later reel than the George Snyder, I guess. That's about all I know about this reel.

Hinkebein: I think we understand that that might be the sons of George Snyder or was it George Snyder and one of his sons?

Fortune: Well, the J wouldn't be George, it's G isn't it?

Hinkebein: That’s true.

Fortune: It's James and Charles is what it was. Or what I've always been told it stood for, I don't know. They also made a lot of coin silver too. You see some of that around.

Hinkebein: Now, the drag or gear works are in the inside of that reel.

Fortune: Well, this one here, I think all it's got is the click on it. It's still got the spool lock on it. But it doesn't have the drag like the big reel does.

Hinkebein: So that's an early style.

Fortune: It's still early, probably 1830s or 40s probably. Maybe before.

Hinkebein: And here we've got one more specimen that is not labeled George Snyder, but all the historians think it is and it's stamped T.W.O. What do you know about this reel?

Fortune: Well, this reel belonged to Thomas Owings which Owensville Kentucky was named after and it came out of the family of Jack Banan over in Bourbon County. Jack died in 1990 and there's also another one, smaller than this, that's in a museum out in, I think, Oklahoma. It's got the same inscription on it.

Hinkebein: So what year might that have been made?

Fortune: Probably the same time. See, this click button should have had a ... That's where G.S. would have been on this button, because it would have been looking like this one right here. What the click button should have looked like on it.

Man's voice: Okay, so let's move on to J.F. and B.F. Meek. J.F. and B.F. Meek, who were they again?

Fortune: Well, John I guess. Of James, I don't know. I never really found out who J.F. was. John Fleming, I think's what it was. Jonathan Fleming Meek. B.F. was Benjamin Meek. I think Benjamin was the one that made a lot of the reels, but later on I think Milam, B.C. Milam made most of them under that name Meek and Milam.

Hinkebein: But J.F. and B.F. Meek stamped reels are some of the early ones also in the period right after George Snyder?

Fortune: Probably 1830s or 40s you know. There's a reel that I know of I think out in Arizona that had just J.F. Meek stamped on the foot. I think it's in Mr. Stewart's book.

Hinkebein: Well, here's one that's from your collection and it is stamped J.F. and B.F. Meek without a number, meaning without a size, but it also has these famous numbered screws. Can you tell us about this reel?

Fortune: Well, I got this reel after Mason Vansant. This belonged to his family. I guess that's where they put sizes on them.

Hinkebein: Before they put sizes on them. And why would they number the screws?

Fortune: So you could put them back in the right place.

Hinkebein: They were not universal?

Fortune: No, they would only fit in one place. They were handmade screws.

Hinkebein: And that's a brass reel? What's the knob handle made out of?

Fortune: Well, that handle's made out of buffalo horn. I think most of them were. Or just horn, I don't know if it necessarily had to be buffalo. You never did see anything other than black. I think a buffalo was pretty common back in those days.

Hinkebein: Here’s another one from your collection. Labeled J.F. and B.F. Meek. It has numbered screws and large bulbous, if you will, screws to hold the pieces together and tell us about this reel.

Fortune: Well, I got this reel from a guy up in Michigan. It came out of a bait shop in Mississippi. Other than that ... Some of the better reels.

Hinkebein: Is that a wooden or an ivory or a horn grasp?

Fortune: I would say that reel was made out of ivory. Anyway it's one of the better J.F. B.F.'s is all I know.

Kleier: Howard, could I ask a question regarding that reel and that is that the screws have like a swelling on them or a tulip head on them, is that uncommon?

Fortune: I think it's for decoration probably.

Hinkebein: So, each piece on there was just handmade. They were custom made for each reel.

Fortune: Yea.

Hinkebein: There was another reel maker named J.L. Sage. What do you know about Sage?

Fortune: Well, his reels are pretty hard to find, I know that.

Hinkebein: Was he out of Kentucky also?

Fortune: Yea. He worked out of Frankfort. Sage was more of a plumber than he was anything. Last I know of him, he wound up working in Lexington, but all his reels are marked Frankfort, Kentucky.

Hinkebein: So, here's one now from your collection and it says J.L. Sage Frankfort, Kentucky Number 5. Can you tell us about this reel? What's the material, what's the handle?

Fortune: Well, it's a brass reel. Made out of a horn.

Hinkebein: Pretty large sized reel. What would they fish for with this kind of a reel?

Fortune: Well, it may be as small you know, saltwater. I don't know whether they went that far or not.

Hinkebein: Or maybe larger fish in Kentucky, such as muskie?

Fortune: Well, they called them Pike in that day. They didn't know what a muskie was, but they were pike. I got that from Mike Nogay, believe it or not.

Hay: What year would Sage have been?

Fortune: According to Henshall, Sage was supposed to be making reels in the 1840s, but I don't believe it was that early. I think it was 1860s or 70s, because he lived up until about 1904.

Hinkebein: Here's another reel by Sage. It's a big number 7 made out of a different material. What about that reel?

Fortune: Well, it's German silver. I remember this reel very well. I ran an ad in a free newspaper in Lexington and a guy called me and told me he had a number 7 Sage and he said this old guy he bought it from was fishing with it in the Kentucky River. It probably had a 40 or 50 pound test line on it, a big old monofilament line. One of the better Sage's I think.

Kleier: What did you think when he called you and said he had a number 7?

Fortune: I couldn't believe it, because I did, you know, ask him how big it was. He had it and a number 1 Meek and Milam is what he had. He said the number 1 is real small and the Sage is a big one. I said I'm interested and he told me what he wanted for them and I had to drive to Danville Kentucky. They were having an auction down there in one of the old mansions or something and he said that's where he would be. Of course, he was waiting on me when I got there. He described what he looked like and I told him what kind of car I'd be in at that time. I didn't know. It's one of the better reels anyway. I think that reel is just as rare as any of them myself, you know, as far as the ties.

Hay: So, you mentioned that it had a filament line on it ... Modern filament line ...

Fortune: Modern line. The guy, like I said, the guy was fishing with it.

Hay: So what would the lines have been made out of historically?

Fortune: Probably silk or the real old lines they claimed were ... On the Snyders were horse hair. Now, how they made them, I don't know, but that's what they claim they were made of. This reel right here, this Snyder, there was some lines on those reels. I don't know what the stuff was, but when you pulled it off, it would break, that's how old it was on there. But it looked like it was some kind of a waxed, shellacked looking material. I don't know what it was.

Hinkebein: So, let's talk about some of the other Kentucky reel makers. There was a gentleman named Deally out of Louisville, Kentucky. What do you know about Deally?

Fortune: I just know he made a few reels, you know, I don't know. They were made all the way up to probably a number 2 all the way up to a number 10 that I know of. But there's only a very few of them.

Hinkebein: Here's one that has a fancy inscription that is from your collection and it says that it was made for Edwin B. Clemont, Minneapolis Minnesota. What about this reel?

Fortune: All I know is that's a reel I got from Ronnie Fritz when I made the trade with all my lures, you know.

Hinkebein: What years did Deally make his reels, do you know?

Fortune: Probably 1880s and 90s all the way up to probably 1910, I don't know.

Hinkebein: Here's one, Howard, that you haven't seen, that I've been wanting to show you. I think this one's just beautiful. I'm not sure what the metal material is, perhaps you can tell us. It's stamped J. Deally, Louisville, Kentucky. And on the backside it’s engraved for Louis Seelbach, who with his brother created the Seelbach Hotel. What metal is that?

Fortune: Looks like German silver. Of course, it could be sterling, I don't know.

Hinkebein: It's so much shinier than the other German silvers. Maybe it's got another alloy in it.

Fortune: Well, you could take it off and put acid on the inside of it, which wouldn't really hurt it and it could tell you whether it's silver or not. That's about all I know.

Hinkebein: So, there was Snyder, then J.F. and B.F. Meek, and then there's a gentleman named B.C. Milam and did he join the Meek brothers in the jewelry and watch and reel business?

Fortune: He supposedly worked under them as an apprentice and I think Milam made nearly all the reels after 1860.

Hinkebein: Here's one that was from your collection. It's stamped Meek and Milam, Frankfort, Kentucky and it has a number 5 on it. This has numbered screws. Tell us about this reel.

Fortune: That's still another German silver one. That's one that I got when I traded all my lures to Ronnie Fritz, you know.

Hay: Could you hold that one up for the camera, maybe turn it around a bit?

Fortune: See that's some fancy work on this one too, you know.

Lander: Some of those later rods, towards the end of the 19th century, they did have what we call now, reel seats on them. Where you could put the foot of the reel down in this reel seat and tighten it somehow.

Fortune: They still make a rod today that has bands on it, you could put one with a six inch foot on it.

Lander: Is that what they call reel bands, that slid over the reel foot and the handle of the rod.

Fortune: You see that one a lot of your spinning rods, you know, that's the way they are fastened on their fly rods and stuff.

Hinkebein: Speaking of some of the other Kentucky reel makers, here's one that is engraved for a J.C. Lynn, Danville Kentucky and under that it says Dalton maker. What do you know about a gentleman named Dalton that made reels and about this reel.

Fortune: Well, I don't know anything about Dalton, but I do know about Mr. Lynn. Like I said, I mentioned a guy named Oscar Chapman. I met him in Paris 1979 and Mr. Lynn lived in Versailles, of course that's where Chapman lived, of course they are all both gone now. And he called me one day and told me a guy over here has a reel you might want to look at. Well, I went over and looked at it and of course, he didn't want to sell it, you know. A real nice old fellow. He said that was made for his uncle and he thought this guy lived in Danville or Sanford. He didn't know for sure and I made him an offer on it and he said that's a generous offer, but it's just not for sale. Well, it went on a year or so and one day my wife ... I was working somewhere away from home and she said Mr. Chapman called and wanted you to call him. I called him and he told me I think Mr. Lynn wants to sell that reel. Well, I drove over there Saturday morning, went in and saw him and we talked a while and I said, "Well are you wanting to sell the reel?" and he said"Yea". He said "You made a generous offer, I'm going to sell it to you". "Why did you decide to sell it?" He said, "Well, I had one son and he died here about 6 months ago of a heart attack and I didn't have anybody to leave it to and I figured you'd take care of it". I said, "Well, I hope it's in good hands with Bill Hinkebein". (Laughs) That's the story on the Dalton. There's only two of those known in the country. I don't know how many were made, but there's only two known.

Hay: That's a big responsibility.

Hinkebein: It is. So, let's see, I've got ...

Fortune: You don't own them, Bill, you've just got them in your possession for a while.

Hinkebein: That's right. Nobody owns them, they are a part of Kentucky History. They're owned by the state.

Fortune: I didn't want to see these reels scattered all over the world so that's the reason you've got them all.

Hinkebein: Here's one that maybe you can tell us about. This is stamped J.W. Hardman. Louisville Kentucky number 3. What about this reel?

Fortune: Well, that's another reel according to Henshall that was made in the 1840s, which I think it was a little bit later than that. That's another one of the rare reels. There's only about two of those known in the world.

Hinkebein: Is that German silver?

Fortune: Yea. I got this from a guy in Florida. He found it —there’s a flea market down there and I don't know what gave for it, but that's where it came from. ( ) story behind it, and I said, "Well I'll send you a check for it" and he said, "Well, I don't want to mail it. I want you to meet me in Atlanta Georgia" I said, "I'm not driving to Atlanta, you insure it for whatever you want". So, he finally agreed to insurance and sent it to me.

Hay: Could I hear the sound of it? Each one is unique.

Hinkebein: We'll probably want to get back to the early J.F. and B.F. Meek to hear the metal one versus a quill one at some point. But, meanwhile, here's one that is stamped Frank Fullilove, Owenton, Kentucky. Is Frank Fullilove another Kentucky reel maker?

Fortune: I don't think he made any of those. He was a jeweler, so I don't know who made them. I've heard a rumor that Sylvanus Meek made his reels, so I don't know who made them. So anyway Frank Fullilove owned a jewelry store in Owenton.

Hinkebein: So he sold them. He purchased them, they were stamped under his name and he sold them.

Fortune: There's not many of these around either.

Man's voice: Here's another one that is stamped Medleys 20th Century Kentucky Reel from Gracie Kentucky. What about Medley reels?

Fortune: I remember when I bought this reel. I found out it was for sale, I called the guy and he was ... He claimed he was in an airplane 30,000 feet in the air when I was talking to him on his cell phone. Medley was, I guess, a jeweler in Gracie Kentucky. That's Western Kentucky somewhere. I think he finally sold his patent to Meek and they made some free spool reels and there's a whole line of stories of that. It's made out of German silver. There's only a couple, 2 or 3 of these in the country too, so I don't know how many were made but not many.

Hay: Okay, let's take a quick break.

Hinkebein: ....Six of those rods that Dick Bohaners used to make and so it kind of refers to this rod and we're assuming that that rod that we have in possession here might be one of them, but we don't know who this Mr. Dick Bohaners and we assume it's misspelled and it's probably Bohannon, but we can't find any other info on it. So that's the only other two things that I'm going to ask that you do, is take a look at the box and see what you think of it. See what you think about the rod and these two reels and they want to ask their questions.

Hay: Do you want to start with that?

Hinkebein: Either way. Ms. Barr? Go right ahead.

Hay: Why don't we go back and I'll have the microphone just to start this section....Okay it's 1:15 and we took a little break for lunch and Howard went back to check on the dogs. And he's kindly returned for more. (Laughs) I wanted to go back with some questions about your childhood and family and growing up. Who were your parents and where were they from?

Fortune: Well, my dad has always been from Mount Sterling or Montgomery County. My granddad came back during the Revolutionary War days, I guess. He owned probably 2,000 acres or land out here along Slate Creek and Little Slate Creek and all that. I guess war soldiers were paid off or something like that. I know I'd hear my granddad say they were here for a while and the Indians ran them off and went to Bourbon County to stay for a while, so there were still some Indians there when he was here back in the 1780s. And my mother, she was a Frazier, she came here from Breathitt County and that's about all I know about them.

Hay: So, what did they do for a living, your parents?

Fortune: Farm. My dad was always a farmer. My granddad, all of them, was always farming. The only reason I didn't do it is because paydays are too far apart. (Laughs)

Hay: What about brothers or sisters?

Fortune: I had three sisters and two brothers.

Hay: Where did they end up? What was it like growing up with all of them?

Fortune: Well, my oldest brother, he got killed in an automobile wreck, I don't know, sometime about 1955, I don't remember too much about him. I was about 12 or 13 years old. I've still got a younger brother that lived in the county out here. He could probably make a reel if he wanted to. He does a lot of that kind of work, you know and stuff like that. I can't get him to make one. That's about all I know about him.

Hay: Yea, your sisters?

Fortune: Well, one of them is about 90 years old and the other one is a little younger than me and they're housewives, I guess.

Hay: Did they stay around the county here?

Fortune: Yea, well, I had one sister that lived in Indianapolis for a few years, but they finally came back. But the other two, they've always lived here.

Hay: So, what about school? Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like going to school in Montgomery County?

Fortune: I didn't want to go. (Laughs) I quit when I was in the 10th grade, so that was the end of that.

Hay: Had other things to do.

Fortune: Well, yea. (Laughs)

Hay: What did you do then?

Fortune: Farm work, starting to work. I worked for one guy, carpenter work, for 6 or 7 years before I got into construction work.

Hay: And then you started working for the construction companies around different ...

Fortune: I worked for what they called Ceco. It was a concrete construction company out of Chicago. We did all this concrete pouring work. I was a superintendent on this job in Cincinnati, the Proctor and Gamble job up there for 2 years. My biggest adventure. A lot of headache, I know that.

Hay: What about wife, kids?

Fortune: Well, my first wife died in 2000. And my second wife, Bonnie. We never did have any kids, so. That's the reason I let somebody else take care of these reels, I guess.

Hay: You mean be responsible for them.

Fortune: Well, like I told Bill, you don't own anything, you just have it in your possession while you're living.

Hay: Did your collecting ever become a problem like with your wife or ...

Fortune: No, they never did say anything.

Hay: That's good. What are your other special collections that you're most proud of?

Fortune: Well, like I said, I started out when I was a kid, hunting arrowheads. I've still got a few of those left. Then I got into cartridge collecting. I collected them up until about 1979 when I sold my collection and put most of that money into fishing reels. What little money I've got out of fishing reels is going into coal scrip now. (Laugh)

Hay: Into coal scrip.

Fortune: Yea, the coal tokens. The coal companies paid their employees off with.

Hay: What does that look like?

Fortune: It's just coins, just like any other one. They made anywhere from a penny to ... well, they made one with a 20 dollar one. They were credit really. The coal companies didn't pay but ever so often and you could draw that scrip and you could go to the company store and draw on it. You know that old song, you sold your soul to the company store, well that's what they were talking about. A lot of guys would draw that scrip and they never did get paid.

Hay: It's really, they were their own mint.

Fortune: The companies put their own scrip out, that's the only place it's good for is that store.

Hay: Did that become illegal at some point? Must have.

Fortune: Well, I think they outlawed it about 1950, the government did. And they had to start paying. The stores were about 30 percent higher than a regular grocery store.

Hay: It became a human rights issue.

Fortune: Actually, a coal miner wasn't anything but a slave for years, that's what it amounted to, you know. Just got enough to get by on. A lot of them didn't get by very good. (Laughs)

Hay: It perpetuated poverty, didn't it?

Fortune: John L. Lewis came along and got a union organized, that's something I may have mentioned earlier. Said there was two pictures that everybody had in their house and the coal companies and that was a picture of Jesus Christ and John L. Lewis. (Laughs)

Hay: I hear you've got some other collections at your house, like really heavy things.

Fortune: What's that? My wife, she's pretty heavy. (Laughs)

Hay: No. Something that's made out of iron. What were you all talking about? Anvils.

Fortune: Oh, the anvils are gone. I got rid of those. They were too big to get around.

Hay: How did you get them out of there, they were so heavy?

Fortune: The guy I sold them to took them. (Laughs)

Hay: How many did you have?

Fortune: 3 or 4. I never did have very many of them. I've got some old tools left, but ...

Hay: What kind of tools?

Fortune: Just carpenter tools. Axes .. just run of the mill tools.

Hay: So, anything else about childhood, your family growing up in Montgomery County, your work? Any other stories or thoughts on that?

Fortune: Nothing I know of worth talking about.

Hay: So, back to the reels. I was really curious because we've talked about the makers of the reels, but could you tell us and talk about who would have used those reels in the 1820s, 1840s?

Fortune: You had to be real wealthy to afford one of them. Those reels right there, that Meek probably cost 40 or 50 dollars back when ... That's as much as 4 or 5 thousand dollars today. Of course, the Snyder, that was his own personal reel, most other reels were either made for doctors or judges or something like that. When you run them down, that's who they belonged to. So you made to be real wealthy to afford one of them.

Hay: Did they stay close to Kentucky or where did they go?

Fortune: Oh, they went all over the country. Those reels, you're liable to find one anywhere. There's a lot of them in California for some reason or another.

Hay: Did they ever end up in other countries?

Fortune: Probably, but I don't know where. I'd say a lot of them wound up in England.

Hay: You talked about this a little bit, but when you were a kid fishing, what did you use to fish?

Fortune: Cane pole and worms. It's all I had. (Laughs)

Hay: A hook?

Fortune: Yea, a hook and a bobber and a cane pole.

Hay: You could buy the hook and the bobber ...

Fortune: Yea.

Hay: Would you make the cane pole?

Fortune: No, you could buy them, you know. They usually cost 25 cents. I usually got one every year. But, the farm I lived on, we had what's called Slate Creek and it ran through it and we probably owned plenty of creek and of course back in those days everybody had farm ponds and nobody said anything to anybody about fishing in them. It's not like today, you know, you can't hardly go on anybody's land anymore without causing a problem. But back in those days, everyone knew everyone and no one said anything.

Hay: So, you could just go to one of the farm ponds and while away the time or catch some dinner?

Fortune: You fished for something to eat, back them. (Laughs)

Hay: Yea. Everybody would share. Did you do a lot of smoking of meats and fish and ...

Fortune: No, we never did anything like that. I smoked a lot of cigarettes from the time I was a kid up to about 30 years ago. (Laughs) It about killed me. I finally quit.

Hay: You and everyone else. It was part of Kentucky ...

Fortune: Well, I raised a tobacco crop for several years. Like I said, those paydays were too far apart as a farmer. You worked all year and by the time you paid your debts off at the end of the year, you didn't have anything left. (Laughs)

Hay: What would you like young people to understand about the reels, these fishing reels and why they're so special?

Fortune: Well, it took a craftsman to make them and like I said, it was something that only the real wealthy people could afford in that day. The average person couldn't afford one of them.

Hay: Do young people understand craftsmanship?

Fortune: No, I don't think so. All they know today is the cellphone. (Laughs)

Barr: I just had one more question, Howard. When I think of the reels, I try to envision someone going in the Meek and Milam shop on Main Street in Frankfort and they wouldn't see a case full of reels, they would walk in and custom order one of the reels. Say, I'd want a number 2 and I want it to be brass and I want this kind of handle or I want a counter balance on it. How do you envision that transaction occurring? Do you think that's the way it was? Do you think they wrote a letter? It was just horse and buggy back then.

Fortune: I think it was through a letter more than anything.

Barr: So, you think somehow they got a catalog and they wrote a letter to the shop and said "I want this reel with these parts". And it was shipped to them in a wooden box?

Fortune: Most of them were in a wooden box. There wasn't any cardboard then. I know Mr. Gayle, he advertised in one of the early catalogs about 1900s and it said they came in a pasteboard box. That's cardboard today, but he called it pasteboard then. I think I had one of the reels and it was in a box like that.

Barr: We've looked for information about the wooden boxes. Do you know where they were made? Where they got them?

Fortune: I don't know whether they made them themselves or what. I think somebody in Frankfort made them for them. Most of the boxes I've seen, they were just plain and had a label on them and more than likely they had a label made in a print shop too. Then they filled in what size reel it was or something on it. I think they have some at the museum in Frankfort. The boxes. Or they had them down there.

Barr: Yea, we have a couple of them, but we always wondered where they came from.

Fortune: I don't know if it's made by somebody other than in Frankfort. Nick Hadden made these reels, he made his own boxes.

Hinkebein: There were also the leather cases that were made. Were the reels put in a leather case and then in a wooden box or did the leather cases come separate?

Fortune: I'd say afterwards. That's a more modern reel, you know. Probably 1880, probably on up, but the early reels, I don't know.

Hinkebein: So Howard, one thing we wanted to ask you about is, we understand that some of the reels, the older reels probably by J.F. and B.F. Meek, the click could have been metal or the click could have been caused by a turkey quill or a chicken quill. Perhaps you can show us and spin these reels and we can listen to the difference between a metal one and one with a quill.

Fortune: Does this one have the quill? This one is metal?

Hinkebein: That should be a quill one as we understand it. Here, do them both, one at a time and tell us what you think.

Fortune: You can tell the difference. This one's the metal one. Okay. And that's probably an earlier reel than that one. I'd say these quills were replaced pretty regularly in them.

Hinkebein: I'm sorry Howard, what did you say about that one?

Fortune: I'd say their quills had to be replaced pretty regular.

Hinkebein: Yea. Regularly replaced.

Fortune: It didn’t take too much to wear them out. I don't know.

Hinkebein: Ok. Now Don, didn't you have one quill one you opened up and there it was. It was a quill.

Kleier: It was a quill. It was a shock to me. I thought, oh this has got to be metal. Come on! I thought it was ... I didn't believe that they actually used a bird feather for a click.

Fortune: I think the reason a lot of times they just didn't have ... It took a spring like metal and they probably didn't have the metal to make them, so it was easier to make it out of a quill, you know. I think that's a lot of it.

Hinkebein: So, let me ask you this. Now, obviously people try to find these old reels, the old handmade craft ones from the 1820s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. And they're more difficult to find all the time. Is it because ... I've heard different theories, of course, many of them were just thrown out. Like, you know, to the garbage dump, when they became non useful. Someone forwarded that many of them might have been melted down pre civil war for the metals. Could that have been?

Fortune: I don't know about that. They might have been melted down before WWII. They had a right smart of a metal drive during that time. That's what happened to a lot of these anvils. Every farm has an anvil on it at one time, because that's the only was you ever did anything. There was a right smart of a metal drive at that time, I wasn't old enough to remember, I heard other people talk about it, you know, they would go down and take any metal they could get.

Hinkebein: That makes sense. Okay, Howard, we also have a rod that we want to show you and see what you think of it. I don't know if you've seen one quite like this. Let me break it out...So Howard this is a rod and a custom box that was found out in California, has a bass on the front and was made of some kind of wood and leather. Has fixtures to close it. Old hinges and when we open it up, we reveal a four piece cane rod with very nice, very fine German silver ferrules and fittings and as we can see on this one piece there is a stamp for Meek and Milam, Frankfort Kentucky. So this rod, when put together is 16 feet long. 4 pieces at 4 feet each.

Fortune: Well, you know, that wasn't a casting rod. That was just something that you fished with.

Hinkebein: We didn't think you could cast with this thing. We put it together and it was so long. So, the reels were just ... and there's a spot for a reel down here in this box. Unfortunately, the reel wasn't with it. So, this is a pretty fancy rod and obviously it was a high quality piece that was made by a craftsman and it's in fantastic shape. Let me read a letter to you that was also discovered and this is a hand written letter from March 25th 1863 to Mr. Milam from J.F. Meek. "If you have two German silver reels number 3, with alarm and rubber and two of the same exactly number 2 and will send them down immediately, I can sell them for you. If you can send me 6 of those mounted cane poles, such as Dick Bohanners used to make, I have customers for them also. Let me know or send the articles, if possible, by Friday morning express. I feel anxious to do what I can for you here in your misfortune. I hope you will yet be alright again before long. Your friend, J.F. Meek." So we find it interesting because, obviously, here's a reference to the cane rods that are mounted and perhaps this was one he was referring to.

Fortune: Well, what happened, I think Milam's shop burned right before then, is what he was talking about. Something about it somewhere I've read, I don't remember where.

Hinkebein: That's the unfortunate part, his misfortune.

Fortune: Pretty sure. I'd forgot about that. I think that's what it was.

Hinkebein: Interesting. So, let me ask you this, because later there were suits and issues between B.F. Meek and B.C. Milam on referring to their reel as The Kentucky Reel or The Original Kentucky Reel. But here, they appear to be friendly.

Fortune: Yea, that's before this happened.

Hinkebein: I guess it was.

Fortune: See, Milam was probably still making Meek and Milam reels at that time and this is when Milam would start making, he called it the Frankfort Kentucky reel. Meek was the one that was wanting to do it. He moved to Louisville and that's probably where he was wanting this to be sent to. He probably had his jewelry shop down there then. What was it, about 1880 he started making reels then.

Barr: 1883, but that was Ben Meek. Ben Meek's the one ...

Fortune: Yea. J.F. Meek ... I think J.F. died in the early 18... buried in the Frankfort cemetery. I've got a Frankfort cemetery book and I forget what the date is. He died pretty young, J.F. did.

Hinkebein: So cool. Alright. Are we good on that?

Fortune: They've also got a reel at the museum down there that went through the San Fransisco earthquake. It's been burned or something, I don't know.

Hinkebein: Oh, yea that's on display at the Thomas Clark.

Fortune: History museum down there. Back before they ever built the new one.

Hinkebein: So cool.

Fortune: I think he was talking about how indestructible it was or something like that.

Barr: Oh, there have been stories of finding them at the bottom of a lake ...

Hinkebein: Yea, somebody did find one at the bottom of a lake. That's right. I remember reading that.

Fortune: Well, I'm sure he made a cast with it and got a backlash and he threw it in the lake. (Laughs)

Lander: Or maybe he just got mad and said, "To heck with this". (Laughs)

Barr: Fell off his rod.

Hay: Art, do you have any more questions? Things that you need?

Lander: Yea, I just have one thing that I wanted to ask Howard about and that's generally on gear ratios of the reels. It's my understanding that Meek and Milam reels had a 4 to 1 ratio and some of the earlier reels had a 3 to 1 gear ratio. Somewhere I read that ... Is a gear tooth ratio of 40:10 that would be the same as a 4 to 1 gear ratio.

Fortune: Right. That's the way Yep. That’s the way that you told how many the pinion gears off of the other one fit,10 times.

Lander: But the gear ratios vary throughout the period that Kentucky reels were made, right?

Fortune: See, there's another thing, the spur gears and the spiral gears are something that made a big difference too. Milam came up with that I think. Spur gears were just straight and they weren't near as right as the spiral gears were. And they held oil better. It's all in the book about it.

Barr: That's B.F. Ben Meek did the spiral. When he moved to Louisville.

Lander: One other thing we talked about earlier was reel foots. In some of the information about the reels, I read that some had an offset foot. What is that?

Fortune: I don't know.

Lander: Offset. Is that where they went like this? The back end would be lower and the front would be a little bit higher?

Barr: I've seen when they're offset ... Not Kentucky reels, but you see them when they go like that.

Fortune: That's what I'm talking about. I don't know. All the Kentucky reels, all I've ever seen, they're all about the same, you know.

Barr: Is that offset?

Kleier: I don't think it is if this foot is over ...

Landers: Not in the center.

Barr: I've never seen one like that.

Fortune: Did we want to run anything in here about Nick being the last reel maker?

Barr: Sure. Yea.

Fortune: I don't know if you all want. They're all over there in that bag somewhere. I don't know. I've got the first and last reel he ever made. (Laughs) I told Miles, I said watch that, because I'm going to leave them down here when I leave. It would be sitting over there in the floor. The door. No, look over there at the door. Right behind you. Sitting on the floor behind you. He doesn't know what behind you means I don't guess. (Laughs)

Kleier: Antwerp Avenue is named after ...

Fortune: Yea, Doctor Antwerp, yea. That family lives in Ashland Kentucky now is where the family went. See Mr. Stewart found ... He ran them down ... He got a Snyder reel from Antwerp, you know most of the Snyders were stamped on this click drag button and the one he had, somebody put a silver button on it and I guess it got broken or something, anyways I had one, I think Bill's got it, that I bought from a lady in town and she said George Snyder gave it to her husband year's ago and said it was a Snyder but it's not marked, so I don't know. Did you bring that reel with you Bill? The unmarked Snyder?

Hinkebein: Yes.

Fortune: I always heard that's what it was, I don't know, it's not marked.

Hinkebein: Tell me that again? It's one that came from the family?

Fortune: Yea.

Hinkebein: And it's not marked, but it came with the large Snyder reel that is marked.

Fortune: A lady who lived here in town, she used to have yard sales and stuff and I got to talking to her and she said she had this old reel and she said George Snyder gave that to her husband back years ago, you know. I bought it from him, I guess 25, 30 years ago. And she said George said that was a Snyder. Whether or not, I don't know. Antwerp could have made it for all I know. It's not marked, that's for sure.

Hinkebein: It's built exactly like the other ones are.

Barr: Did you ever see one of the reels ... We never have ... That has the makers name inside, like inside the faceplate?

Fortune: Yea, I've seen one of two like that. I've seen one that was marked on the outside.

Barr: Do you remember the maker?

Fortune: Milam.

Barr: Oh really?

Fortune: I don't know why he did it. Maybe he just messed up when he stamped them and didn't want to fool with ... I'd say that stuff was pretty expensive back then. Hard to get, I don't know. Mr. Gee told me that Gayle had all these raised caps he made, he brought that over, cast got it up north somewhere. He had several down there at his house. Some of them as big as a saucer. He was using them for ashtrays. And said they just cast aluminum and turn them in a lathe and turn them out whatever size they wanted. He said that aluminum back then wasn't any good, you could drop it and it would shatter. (Laughs)

Barr: Well, we have a Sage with a number upside down. A number 4 and it's stamped upside down. Still used it. They didn't toss it.

Fortune: That number 7, the numbers sideways on it. I don't know whether you've seen it or not, but it is. I think it's 132 or something and the 3s laying down in it. I don't know whether he did it on purpose or not. Probably ...

Hay: So what do you have here? Can you explain these two reels or this collection?

Fortune: Well, this right here is the first reel that Nick ever made. I saw him when he started on it. It's just marked Nick Hadden, Mount Sterling, Kentucky. Nick Hadden Jr. That's an ivory knob.

Hay: Can you describe it?

Fortune: Well, it's just a little number ... I forget what he called it ... He called it a double aught, I think. It's a little bit smaller than a number 1. It's got an ivory knob on it. It's got a drag on it and that's about all I know. Brass.

Hay: Does it make a sound?

Fortune: It's not a click it's a drag. I haven't had it apart in a long time. This one here's the last one that he made that I know of and he never did finish it. What he was going to do, he was trying to get a bell that would ring when you turned that thing, but he never could get it. He had a cap that was deeper than this one that went on it. I don't know what happened to it. I got lost some way or another. But I got this from the family after Nick passed away. It's only a 2 to 1, it's not a 4 to 1 ratio. It's got gears in it. And this has got a drag, see, it doesn't have a ( ) because he was going to put the bell in there and it's all brass.

Barr: Did Nick fish with the reels he made?

Fortune: No, not that I know of. He was more of an open faced spinning reels, is what he used all the time. And these little miniatures here, he made this and the German silver one and it's got a click and drag both on it. (sound of reel) I can't hear it, I can't hear anyhow. But anyway, he made those in brass and silver and I think Nick made something like between 45 and 50 of them and they went all over the world, I do know that. He had a ledger of all these serial numbers and where they all went to. I tried to get that from the family, but they seemed to not know what happened to it, so, maybe it got destroyed, I don't know.

Kleier: Did he make the boxes also?

Fortune: He made the boxes too. Those are dove tail boxes, I don't know about the label. I think he had those printed up here in town, somebody made them for him.

Kleier: What a craftsman.

Fortune: That's serial number 4, that's all he put on it, but he did make the boxes, I know that.

Barr: That's one thing about the Meek and Milam reels, there's no written inventory that we know of. I don't know if they got destroyed in the fire ...

Fortune: Well, there was some of it in California at one time. Gausted knew something about it, but I forget ... I don't know what ever happened to it. Some of the numbers and who they went to and stuff. So, I think Milam did keep a register of who he sold them to.

Barr: Oh, I'm sure he did. It's just what happened.

Fortune: Nick kept a register of people and reels he worked on. If you sent this reel out there and tell him to put a screw in it or something he'd write the serial number down, who he did it for and what he did to it. He had a ledger on all those. Like I said, it got lost too.

Kleier: Did he make these dollars?

Fortune: Well, he turned them out, you know, there. That Sacagawea, he put that inlay and turned one side out and the other took it off and put them together. You can't tell how tight this is. Some people think it's mint, but it's not, Nick made it. He made several of them. Do you have one Miles?

Miles: No, but I've seen yours, your Meek. I don't see how he did it. (Laughs)

Fortune: Very carefully. I think that's the reason Nick quit making reels, he got to where he couldn't see. He had 25 reels started like that and never did finish any of them that I know of. He may have finished one. Anything else? I don't know.

Hay: Are you still looking for more reels?

Fortune: Yea, I look for them. I think Betty's got them all now.

Hay: But, you’re not going to give up, you're still going to ...

Fortune: No, I'll buy one if I find it, you know. Like I said, I haven't seen any in a long time. I think Bill thinks I'm lying if I do find one. (Laughs)

Barr: Howard likes me more. (Laughs)

Fortune: I don't know about that. I like everybody.

Hinkebein: I have a question. Who's the young man in this photograph?

Fortune: Who? Which one of them?

Hinkebein: The one with the beard.

Fortune: That's me about 30 years ago.

Hinkebein: Isn't that fantastic? That's a great photo.

Fortune: That's Mr. R.W. Keith there on the right. He was one of the old reel collectors in Louisville.

Hinkebein: It was at one of the early shows in 1980.

Fortune: This was at Frankfort, when they had that display down there.

Hay: So, was that his collection that they were displaying?

Fortune: No. He probably had some reels in it. I'll tell you a story on these Snyder reels, Bernan reels. Mr. Bernan had this other one and it went to a museum in Oklahoma. Also had two Meek and Milams, he had a number 1 and a number 3. He had those 4 reels, well the museum went over there to get them and he wouldn't let him have them. He said, you have Fortune come over here and get them. That's when he called me. He said you'll take care of them. He wasn't going to let them have it. (Laughs) I went over there and he handed them to me and I said well I'm going to keep them about a month, you know, they want to put the display on them for a month down there. I went and got them and took them back and he was happy. I never saw them again, I guess, until you showed me that one.

Hinkebein: So, Howard, you know we're going to have ... Ms. Barr is going to have another fantastic display at the City Museum of Frankfort in the summer of 2020, I believe that will coincide with the Old Reel Collectors Association National Convention and we look forward to you being there.

Fortune: I don't even buy green bananas anymore. (Laughs) You get to 77 years old and you don't know if you've got until tomorrow. (Laughs)

Hinkebein: Well, we're going to look at having a display at the Frazier Museum on Main Street in Louisville. And we look forward to seeing you there.

Fortune: Okay. You wouldn't be mad at me if I don't make it, would you?

Lander: I think he said he was going to send a big black car for you.

Hinkebein: I asked him that. I said we'll send a limo, we'll send a helicopter, whatever you want and he said, I'd like a helicopter.

Fortune: I'd rather have a helicopter. I've never rode in a helicopter. (Laughs) I've ridden in limos, these funeral cars a few times. I was in one that was going 90 miles an hour. Driving a hearse 90 miles an hour. That's what it was. Wally was driving it.

Hay: Anything we didn't think to ask?

Lander: I've got another question that I wanted to get Howard's opinion on. The Kentucky reels were basically made from about 1815 to 1928, that's when John Milam died. The handmade reels. During that period, what would you consider the golden age of handmade reels?

Fortune: I'd say back in the 1870s and 80s were when they were really popular. Gayle made reels all the way up to his death. He died in 1947.

Landers: Would you say the Meek and Milams were the golden age?

Fortune: Meek and Milam, yea, both of them ... Yep. Of course, J.F. B.F. that's considered in there too. I think it's listed in that book. Warren Shepard (Antique Fishing Reels) wrote that one. The Golden Age of Kentucky Reels or something, I forget how he put it. I've got the book, but I haven't seen it in a long time. That's another thing that really got me started seeing those in there, you know.

Hay: Any other questions? Anything we didn't think to ask that you want to tell us about?

Fortune: Where's my paper at? They had some notes on different things. You all look through it and ask me.

Kleier: I have one last question. Betty was talking earlier about how these reels would have been ordered. Probably it was a letter, person has a catalog and ordered different things and I've cleaned a lot of the reels, not as many as you have, but it's also struck me that every reel, even if it's by the same maker, they all seem to be a little different either the length of the reel or how it was ornamented. Is that your impression also? That each one seems to be like an individual.

Fortune: That's the reason I say they made the spool first and made the reel around it. You could adjust the pillars for the right length to fit in the journals on that thing. I've seen B.F. Meeks number 3, I've seen 4 or 5 of them and every one of them is a different width. I've never seen two of them alike.

Barr: Was that because they were ordered that way or because they were just ...

Fortune: No, I think that was the way they came out.

Kleier: When they came off of that old lathe, it wasn't like a computerized machine.

Fortune: That's what Gayle said about Milam. If anybody could make a reel on that that would be a lot better maker than we were. On that piece of junk, that's what he called that lathe.

Barr: Did you ever try to turn it with the foot pedal?

Fortune: No. I had it at the house, but I never did fool with it. I was afraid of tearing it up. (Laughs)

Barr: It looks hard. Do you think they had an apprentice that was turning the lathe, while they were making —-.

Fortune: No, I'd say they did that themselves while they were working on it.

Barr: That's a whole other technique.

Fortune: I think something else about that lathe, I think Mr. Rodman told me about what Gayle said about that lathe. Everything was left handed about it. I was reading that it was hard to do anything with the thing according to what he said. Like I said, I never did fool with it, so I don't know how you could even tell.

Barr: Because they varied the speed of it, according to the way ...

Fortune: Yea, you could run it fast or slow.

Barr: That's something all by itself. And then to make the tool at the same time.

Fortune: I'll tell you what. You can see that picture, I think it's in the book there. That lathe was running off a regular belt. It was electric at one time.

Kleier: I agree. I think it was too. Once they got electricity.

Fortune: Somebody told me that he had something rigged up, Mr. Milam, where he had city water and he had this water line running through something and it would turn these lathes instead of electricity. Of course, you know him being what he was, he may have had the rig. I don't know what it was, but that's what he said. He said he had that equipment where it ran on water. Running through that line. Did you hear any tale on that?

Lander: But they start out as a foot treadle lathe, right? The apprentice probably pushed the ...

Barr: If they had an apprentice do it ...

Fortune: Well, I'd say Milam was an apprentice when they had that lathe there, you know, more than likely. It's always the impression they made, but I heard it came from Switzerland. It was ordered, so I don't know whether they made the thing or not. It would take some doing with a bow drill wouldn't it? You know, one of those hand bow drills that's what those old lathes were back in those days.

Barr: The base was made in a foundry. Made in Frankfort. Base was made in Frankfort. That thing is heavy.

Hay: Alright. Is that it? Thank you so much for spending all of this time with us today. This was really important.

Fortune: I appreciate it and I'm glad you all hav enough confidence in me to do this. (Laughs)

Barr: You're the expert.

Hay: Gave us a lot of great info.

Fortune: Well, I hope it helps somebody.

Applause

End of Interview