Interview with Lyman T. Johnson, March 20, 1979

HALL: The following interview was conducted in Louisville, Kentucky at the home of Lyman Johnson on Tuesday, the twentieth of March from about 2:45 until about five o'clock in the afternoon.

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: -----------(??) your, your grandfather and, uh, you--I believe you said that he was, was illiterate, wasn't he? Your g--Dyer Johnson.

JOHNSON: He never, he never learned to read and write. Uh, I guess, I guess he picked up how to figure -------(??) need to be a carpenter because--

HALL: --now, he was a carpenter and that's how he, um--

JOHNSON: --yeah. Yeah. He was a damn good one. And he was just--he was more or less self, self-taught. You got, you got to have a lot of sense to--you got to 00:01:00have a lot of native ability to pick up a trade like that and, and excel.

HALL: How, how good a carpenter do you think he was? Of course, you didn't know him.

JOHNSON: He could build a house.

HALL: He could, he could build a house?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HALL: From--because he couldn't read blueprints. People didn't, didn't usually--

JOHNSON: --no, no--

HALL: --use blueprints back then anyway.

JOHNSON: Just, you just tell him what you want done and he'd do it.

HALL: Uh-huh. So he was a very intelligent person, you're quite sure?

JOHNSON: Yeah. He had, he must have had a lot of, uh, brainpower. I guess his IQ would have been much better than--much higher than, um, than I had, although I had more--I had literary training that he didn't have but, uh, I expect if I'd had his brain with my training I'd have gone places.

HALL: Well, you've been places but we won't talk about that yet.

JOHNSON: (laughs)

HALL: What--you--he, he was born a slave. But yet he became a free man. How, how did--

JOHNSON: --he bought himself out of slavery--

HALL: --well, and how, how could that be done?

JOHNSON: Well, he was--he just picked up this art of carpentry, this, this trade and, uh, as a, as a carpenter he was worth more to his master to hire himself out in town repairing and building houses than to work out on the plantation. So, um, when he would get paid for his work in town the pay would be given to his owner.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, the owner would give him pieces, little, little, little kickbacks of, uh, what he'd earn to keep him interested.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And, of course, not having any access to banks and all that kind of stuff, I guess he must have hid it out under the apple tree, somewhere in little 00:03:00cans, and whatnot. And he was kidding his, kidding his master one day and said, "Would you, would you sell me? If someone offered you a price, would you sell me?" He said, "Oh, yeah. Yes." He said, "Well, I thought you, thought you liked me? I, I didn't know--I didn't think, I didn't think you'd sell me." "Oh, yes, I will." He says, "For a price. If the price is right you, you'll go like all the rest of the slaves." He said, "But, of course, as long as you satisfy the people over in town you're working for and, you know, you behave yourself then I wouldn't, wouldn't just put you on the block just, just, just like that." So, um, that subject came up two or three times and finally it was decided that if anybody offered him thirteen hundred dollars he could go.

HALL: This was in what? About what year?

JOHNSON: Oh, it was, it was somewhere before '50, 1850. I don't know.

HALL: Late 1840s.

JOHNSON: About '48, '49, '50. So he said, um--he, he walked in one day and, uh, said to his owner, "This fellow in town wants to buy me." Said, "Okay. Tell him to send the thirteen hundred dollars and he, he can have you." The next time the subject came up he said, said "Look, man over in town wants to buy me and he sent you thirteen hundred dollars." Counted out thirteen hundred dollars that he'd picked up from under those trees and rock fences and what--where--all, all these little hiding places.

HALL: Hm.

JOHNSON: And, uh, handed out--took the money and he said, "Okay, now you go on. You go on over there and tell him if he trusted you with the, with the thirteen 00:05:00hundred dollars, then I trust you to go on over there and turn yourself into him. Now, you're, you're through here. Get going." And he says, "Yes, but the man says he'd like to have a receipt, some kind of receipt." So the man said, "Sure. That's all right." 'This day sold: Dyer Johnson, for so much. Cash in hand.' And signed his name. And then he looked up to him and my grandfather said, "Now, who's name shall I put down there?" And he said, "Put down Dyer Johnson." And the man started to write it down. He said, "But that's you." He said, "That's right. That's right. Put my name down." Well, the man said, "I'd sell you for thirteen hundred dollars so I've sold you," and put his name at the top and down the middle, "I sell Dyer Johnson to Dyer Johnson," and signed his name to--he was a free man from then on.

HALL: Did, did that have to be recorded in the courthouse--

JOHNSON: --um--

HALL: --in any way? I, I guess that was -----------(??).

JOHNSON: When you bought, when--four or five years, three years later when he bought his wife about three years later, when he saved up enough money to buy her, I have that, I showed you that--

HALL: --right--

JOHNSON: --uh, that statement and, uh--

HALL: --but you don't have--

JOHNSON: --that was recorded.

HALL: But you don't have the--

JOHNSON: --I don't--no, I don't have any statement on my father--or my grandfather.

HALL: And do you know if it's recorded?

JOHNSON: I don't know.

HALL: Probably not because--

JOHNSON: --I don't know. I don't know whether he bothered to have it recorded. I don't know. No, I never--we--I mean my generation never got, uh, our hands on anything in reference to it in writing. We got it pretty well on, on, on my grandmother.

HALL: Well, could you, could you read that document, uh, for me in which your grandfather bought your grandmother and, and what were the circumstances surrounding that according to your family tradition?

JOHNSON: Well, he couldn't, he couldn't, he couldn't go back on the plantation to see his own wife.

HALL: Well, he had courted her and married her, right?

JOHNSON: Yeah, right. Uh, the irony of the thing was he said when he would go on the plantation to see his wife, uh, he would be brushed off. "Don't come on, on the plantation now because you are free. And we don't want the other slaves getting any, any screwy ideas now about doing what you do." He said, "Yes, but--" Now, here's the irony. "Yes, but you let me marry her. So she's my wife." "Yes, but she's still a slave and you're not so you can't come back to see her. Well, can't come back on. Can't come on the place and I can't let her go off the place because she's still a slave."

HALL: Did they have any children at that time?

JOHNSON: No. So, um, the condition was that if he'd go and buy a piece of ground, build a house on it, uh, then he could come back and, and pick her up. And so he did that. It was one year later. So I got, uh, I got the deed there to the ground on which he built a one-room log cabin.

HALL: But he'd already bought her before he bought the land?

JOHNSON: One year before he bought the, before he, uh, bough the ground. Put up a one-room log cabin.

HALL: Do--you have the deed? You have a copy of the deed?

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HALL: Could you read that, too, into the record?

JOHNSON: Well, I could. It's a little more, little more detailed -----------(??).

HALL: Is it right there?

JOHNSON: --um-hm.

HALL: Okay. Well, now, I wonder why--uh, why would a slave owner have allowed, uh, one of his female slaves to, to marry a free man, freeman in the first place?

JOHNSON: I, I assume that they were married first.

HALL: I'm sorry? What--

JOHNSON: --I assume that they were married before he, um--

HALL: --was a freeman--

JOHNSON: --um, became a freeman. I'm assuming that they were both slaves.

HALL: Well, what I'm asking is--would, would there have been any profit in it for the slave--for the owner of, of your--of the female slave? What I'm saying is--

JOHNSON: --not, not to sell her and to keep her for profit.

HALL: Right.

JOHNSON: -----------(??).

HALL: For, for the children or what will happen to the children?

JOHNSON: Uh, white people of this generation and the last generation, which would be the children of the ex-slaves-- HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --pardon me, ex-slave owners.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: The children and their grandchildren resent any reference to their grandpappy breeding slaves for profit. They resent it. It was done but I don't--uh, I don't bring it up except when people deny it.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: When they deny it then I, I am quite, quite willing to help document it, dig up the proof. I'd rather not do it because the present generation is not responsible and why, why, um, make them feel a sort of guilt for what their grandpappy did?

HALL: Well, it's part of history though.

JOHNSON: Well, I say if anybody denies it then--

HALL: --um--

JOHNSON: --then let's get the record straight. Hell, yes. There, there would have been a profit.

HALL: Well, and, and of course--

JOHNSON: --of course it, it was a--

HALL: --they had to bring on--

JOHNSON: --long range thing. You'd have to wait until the child, uh, grew up, eighteen or twenty years. It takes eighteen or twenty years to get a, a, a real adult, uh, um, able-bodied, um, slave.

HALL: But a child six, eight, ten years old could work in the fields.

JOHNSON: Could work in the field but, uh--

HALL: --and is worth something. I mean they would be -----------(??).

JOHNSON: But usually, usually, uh, a child--until, until a child passes 00:11:00thirteen, the care that's necessary is likely to be equal to if not more than the, than the cost of, of caring for the child, even though he--it may have been almost negligible, the, the expense of the child. But, but still, uh, I, I would hate to, I would hate to breed, uh, people for profit because by the time I got ready to, to reap the profit I'd be either senile or dead. But many people did it looking forward to the next generation.

HALL: Um-hm. Well, now, you see, if your grandmother had had a child before she was bought by your grandfather--

JOHNSON: --um-hm--

HALL: --to whom would that child have belonged?

JOHNSON: Oh, he'd be--as long as the child--as long as the mother was a slave, 00:12:00any issue, uh, is the property of the owner of the mother.

HALL: And then, and then your grandfather would have had to--if, if he wanted, wanted his own child he would have had to bought him or her, too.

JOHNSON: That's right. That's right. You see, um--

HALL: --so, so far as you know--

JOHNSON: --in, in slavery days, in slavery days just the idea of marriage was, was, um, a misnomer or, or it was a, um, it was a, a far cry from the, uh, concept of the typical married--American marriage. Uh, for a man--for a slave and his wife to have a child and then the master for some reason, perhaps get 00:13:00into economic difficulty and need money, uh, he'd sell the mother one way, the father another way, and the child a third way. There was no family.

HALL: Do you think there's a, there's a legacy that black people have inherited from that today?

JOHNSON: No, no. I just--uh, I don't excuse--

HALL: --you think it has -----------(??)--

JOHNSON: --I don't excuse, uh, uh, black families when they bust up. I don't, I don't put it on what they inherited from the slavery days. I just, I just, uh, look around and I find enough other reasons, you know, enough economic, um, problems of today that are faced by black people. It's not--it's a marvel that any of them, uh, stay married ten minutes. When the father can't get a job then 00:14:00what good is he to, to a woman and two or three kids? He's just, just another person eating, so get rid of him.

HALL: So the legacy is, though, you do have that economic lesson--legacy.

JOHNSON: Well, but--

HALL: --which affects the black family life--

JOHNSON: --but that, but, but I, I put it on present day conditions. Our capitalist system does not provide an answer to the problem and, and that, that gets me into my, uh, ideas of economics and, um, I'd rather not expound on that now because I'm so far out of tune with the rest of society that--

HALL: --why don't you expound on it? This might be a good chance to.

JOHNSON: Oh, no, no. It's, uh--

HALL: --you, you--maybe you just, uh--

JOHNSON: --I, I thought at first--

HALL: Before your time--

JOHNSON: --I, I had too much training in the so-called Christian religion. And 00:15:00then I go out into academic world and study of our vaunted concept of economic, uh, operations in this country and in most of western Europe, of which this country is to a large extent a flowering and maturing and, and, uh, a sort of a, sort of a meshing of western eur--western civilization. It's based on ruthless cutthroat capitalist competition. And there, there is no Christianity anywhere 00:16:00within 10,000 miles of our concept of economics. And so I'm torn between all the beautiful religious concepts that my father and mother implanted into me and the, uh, the vulture type of economic society we live in. For that reason, I am mis--I've been mis, mis, uh, misunderstood and I'd rather not go any further.

HALL: Well, let--well, let me ask you this. Do, do you think there is some kind of--well call it a welfare state, if you want. Call it socialism if you want to. But do you think something in that direction is, is more in keeping with, uh, 00:17:00with, with what is best for society as a whole? Not just for the poor people but for, uh, -----------(??)?

JOHNSON: I would consider, I would consider myself--I should consider myself exceedingly naïve if not dumb if I thought that was right. Uh, I toy with the idea that that is correct but to think so makes me, uh--I, I'm quite a bit reluctant to, to think that I'm right on that because so many other people disagree with me.

HALL: Well, that doesn't make it--

JOHNSON: --almost, almost everybody--

HALL: --doesn't make you wrong.

JOHNSON: I know, but almost everybody disagrees with it and they even go so far as to, uh, try to stigmatize me and, uh, sometimes, uh, I plead guilty to be a 00:18:00left-wing leftist. But, but Jesus Christ himself was, was no capitalist. He was, he was a communist if there ever was one.

HALL: But what--(throat clearing)--well, I just--

JOHNSON: --and to call myself a Christian I've got to follow h--somewhat in his footsteps.

HALL: What, what about the term Christian Socialists?

JOHNSON: Uh, yeah.

HALL: Christian Socialism. Does that sound close to what you--

JOHNSON: --um, it, it, it's redundant to me. Christian. Christian Socialism. Socialism is Christian. Uh, "Go and give all that you've got to feed the poor and then come back and, and I'll tell you what else to do." It, it's--you know, that young capitalist, uh, uh, ruler said, "Go to hell. I, I can't do that." He never came back. And the people who came to this country, we, we make a big ado 00:19:00about our, our Christian principles upon which this country was founded. Why don't you tell the truth, like it was. Many of the people who came here, they didn't come here for Christian, Christian principles. They came here, um, to, to, uh--for England to unload the jails. They sent the jailbirds over here to Georgia and Alabama--Georgia and, uh, and, and much of South Carolina. They, they--and, and the people who came here from New England--who, who settled in New England, many of them were Puritans. They claimed, claimed to be Puritan separatists. They came but, uh, but don't kid yourself. Now, Sir Francis Drake, and sir, Sir Walter Raleigh and all that bunch of noblemen, uh, they got rich off of, uh, stealing from the Spanish. The Spanish came over here and took the gold and, and all the precious stuff that they could get from the Indians. The 00:20:00Spaniards stole it and then when they got halfway back home, uh, Queen Elizabeth sent her seadogs out to sea to, to rob the Spanish. That isn't Christianity. Hell no. That's a--that's just highway thuggery, thievery. It was piracy of the first order and, and, and to, to, to gloss it over with any idea of Christian concept is, is, uh, is to pervert the name Christian.

HALL: What, what--

JOHNSON: --she, she told Sir Humphrey Gilbert, Sir Walter Raleigh and all the rest of those bastards, she told them, "If you rob from the Spanish and bring your treasures here, I'll divide it. I'll give you half. If you don't, I'll have you killed for, for piracy to--at the, at the--on the high sea. If you, if you don't bring the half of it. Bring it all to me and I'll divide it." Now, you 00:21:00see. And then said that, uh, said that was Christianity at work? That was a joke. And then, then, um, all of these Puritans up there in Massachusetts, uh, Rhode Island, Connecticut, they got--most of the big shots got rich off of slave trade. Church people. Deacons in the church paid their dues--

HALL: --somewhat later though. But they--what, what--

JOHNSON: --they get--they pay their dues off of profits they made in, in the slave trade and then, then call that Christianity. No, Sir. I, I bet Jesus Christ would come, come through there with a whip and run all of them out. Say, "I did it once. I did it two thousand years ago and I will do it again. Give them a whip. Oh, you made a, a den of thieves out of my, out of my house."

HALL: Do you think, do you think there's something in Christianity that, um, denies human nature? Because greed seems to be a basic element in human nature.

JOHNSON: The greed is, uh, it's, it's, um, definitely a characteristic of human nature. Of, of, of nature itself. Birds do the same thing. I used to, I used to--I started when I was a kid. I used to throw just one half of a biscuit out into the yard and there'd be a bunch of chickens out there and, and I, I started studying the situation then and I noticed I threw it out and one chicken would see me do it. And he'd look all around and then he'd rush over and get the, the, the crumb of bread that I had thrown out.

HALL: I've seen it, too.

JOHNSON: And run off--

HALL: -------------(??)--

JOHNSON: --in the corner and peck it to pieces.

HALL: Yeah. Yeah.

JOHNSON: You couldn't swallow it all in one place. But if you stood around--and what was, what was the morale of that? If you stand around you attract the attention of all these other chickens and they'll come over and when you start pecking it to pieces they will, they'll--each one will get a piece, as much as he can get. So if I throw it out there the chicken will come and pick it up and look all around and then run way off in the corner by himself and peck it to pieces and that's, that's, that's nature.

HALL: So, so what, so what can we do? We have to deny that or we have to try to overcome it?

JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. Culture, culture--

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: --and -----------(??) are the results of self-discipline. If you give way, if you do not--as I see it--if you do not work constantly at, at overcoming 00:24:00the greed of nature then you become like any other beast. Selfish. And not concerned at all about -----------(??) fellow.

HALL: Yeah, yeah. How is that done though? How can--is it done through -----------(??)?

JOHNSON: There'll always, always be a few people who try, try to, uh, control themselves and then if they ever make any reasonable progress towards controlling themselves, then they tie on the next, uh, most difficult task, which is to try to, to, to--I wouldn't say control. Try to domesticate--[phone 00:25:00ringing]--try to condition other people to be socialist in nature.

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: Well, we're talking about the--(laughs)--about nature and I think what you said is--makes sense. Uh, what is the role of government, do you think, in, uh--

JOHNSON: --the government should do for people as a group what the people cannot do for themselves as individuals or in small groups. The government should do for us because the government is us. The government should do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

HALL: Is--so you're a Lincoln economist, so to speak? Was it Lincoln who said, 00:26:00who said that originally?

JOHNSON: I don't know.

HALL: I think it was. -----------(??).

JOHNSON: I don't know.

HALL: Makes sense though.

JOHNSON: If, if that's what Lincoln said, then, then, uh, he and I agree. (laughs)

HALL: (laughs) Seems to me that, uh, I've heard that Lincoln--

JOHNSON: --uh--

HALL: --he wrote it first. But--well, now that will--will that vary from person to person then? What you might need from the government will differ from what--because of your--

JOHNSON: --well, it, it, it--I, I just got stacks of illustrations. There is the Ohio River coming down there and I--suppose I lived down hear the river, just about a mile--or a half-a-mile--maybe three blocks--a half-a-mile from the river. And when it goes on--when it begins to rise, goes above the flood line, my house is in danger. I can't push that river back. But the man next to me and 00:27:00the man next to him and next to him, if we all get together we can build a flood wall. (??)---------illustration.

HALL: -----------(??).

JOHNSON: Uh, Tennessee Valley is an illustration. All that Tennessee River is just too, too, is, too huge an undertaking for some little city along the, um, Missi--the Tennessee River to, to, uh, dam it up and, and get those, uh, hydroelectric, uh, turbines to, to work. It's just, just too much. Too much for one city or the next city or even for Tennessee or, or, or for half of the South. The whole United States ought to put its resources there to, to control the Tennessee River to the extent--and, and put it to use and, and then after you get all that electricity, then go out and give it to the people and you ought not to let a bunch of vultures like, uh, Commonwealth Southern, uh, um, many years ago trying to buy up all that electricity cheaply and then sell it at 00:28:00a high price to the people. Why, it was the people who built Tennessee TVA. It was the people who built Tenn--TVA and now the people ought to receive the benefit from TVA. Now that's socialism of the first degree and you can call it communism if you want to.

HALL: Now, who, who tried to buy that cheap?

JOHNSON: Common, Commonwealth Southern. I think that was the company. I used to, I used to just pound on and the board of education said, "Well, Mr. Johnson, that's in keeping with our, our, our capitalist system." I said, "Well, well, the capitalist system is wrong." It's wrong. It's wrong for, for a bunch of capitalists to go in and put pressure on the pol, on the politicians to give them this, uh, electricity. They were going to sell electricity all down along, uh, near Paducah and all down toward Memphis and what--they were head--their headquarters were in Memphis. And they had a, they had a thing going until a 00:29:00bunch of us nosey socialists uh, exposed the whole thing. And when people found out that they were going to have to pay about five or six times the price for heating their homes, uh, lighting their houses and whatnot, operating machinery around the home, five or six times what they would have to pay if they got it directly from TVA.

HALL: When was that? About when would that have been?

JOHNSON: I don't know. I used to teach that around--eh, about '55 or something.

HALL: I didn't realize that that was-------(??)

JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. Now the, the capitalists are--

HALL: --so you don't--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --so you don't agree then that this country needed capitalists--

JOHNSON: --oh, I think--

HALL: --to develop it?

JOHNSON: Oh, I, I will toss them one compliment, grudgingly, and that is that it 00:30:00was the capitalist system that got us on the road but it has--now, I, I'm sort of take back that by saying--but now, uh, we--whatever, whatever benefits capitalism has gotten for us, the system itself has out-used--out-lived its usefulness and sensible people ought to move on to higher ground and adopt something more in keeping with a society that will wipe out poverty, ignorance, uh, disease and, uh, and definitely slums.

HALL: There was an article in one of the local papers just the other day. You 00:31:00probably read it, about even the poverty programs of the, uh, federal government that are designed to spread the wealth around, have-- that they may help a lot of people but they actually contribute to, um, amassing more and more wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people, too, at the same--

HALL: --well, the system that, the system that we adopted back in 1935, the beginning of '35, '36, '37, the, the, the system of welfare was a great step forward to get us out of the Depression of the 1930s, '31, '32, '33, '34. Now, the social changes that we made just made the capitalists just cry like everything. But the policies of the capitalists, uh, through 1931 had led us 00:32:00into the worst Depression this country has ever seen and we had to come out from the very bottom of the trough, and as we, as we began to effect changes we used mostly stop gap tactics. We didn't go far enough but we went as far as traditions and mores and, uh, and accepted principles would let us go.

HALL: Without a revolution or without a civil war.

JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when we went as far as we could go we--since '38, 00:33:00'39, we've only tried to refine what we did do, not to go the extra mile to get the job done like it ought to be. And, uh, we have gradually moved towards socialism. Only towards socialism. But we, we feel like anything, the use of the word socialism. Right now the people--the, the trend--I mean the, the, the type of people who fought the changes in the thirties as, as, uh, how dangerous these changes would be and how they would likely wreck our whole economic society, uh, 00:34:00you couldn't take away from them the benefits that they now get out of this. But they don't want to go another step. They don't--"Don't go any further. This is far enough." Uh--

HALL: --well--

JOHNSON: --many of the benefits of our, our socialist trend are highly cherished right now by people who perhaps would be staunch capitalists, uh, of the past. But they still don't want to call it, uh, socialism.

HALL: Well, call it what you will. It doesn't really mat--the word doesn't matter, does it?

JOHNSON: No. No. But here's, here's, here's the thing. Um, uh, we are afraid because we are so stuck on our--in our allegiance to the shibboleth of 00:35:00capitalism. We are so, we are so devoted to, to the shib--shibboleth that, uh, we defy anybody to say that we've made one step toward socialism. Well another--and if you, if you look at it, it is. Now, on the other hand, I'm going to say that, uh, the, the type of welfare that we've had has been detrimental to the recipients of it.

HALL: Why is that?

JOHNSON: Because, uh, uh, there is too much condoning of reliance on government 00:36:00on the part of people at the bottom. The people on the bottom ought to be given jobs in exchange for social benefits.

HALL: You sa--

JOHNSON: --they ought not to be given them without--they ought not to be given free food stamps, to be exact. They ought not to be given free housing. They ought to be made to work out free--I mean, uh, room rate and food and clothing and education for their children. They ought to be made to work for them. Now, that's socialism.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: See, now some people, uh, jump on me right straight by saying I want to give away all that the rich people have. Well, yes, I want to give away all that 00:37:00the rich people have. But the recipients must work to earn it and I don't think that, I don't think the person--no, just--it seems so, so logical to me. Why should I work every day? Why should I work every year and every year be taxed to pay for the man who doesn't work next door. Just because, because he doesn't work, he doesn't have any money, therefore he's starving, now you got to tax me. I work. You're going to tax me to, to keep him alive? No. No, that--you see, you have to get my whole philosophy to see that, uh, I don't condone what we're now doing. I do condemn capitalist--capitalism for making it possible for what we're 00:38:00doing. So what I'm saying is make the man work. Make him contribute to the gross national product. Then I don't mind him sharing in the gross national product.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, I think--here's where government should come in. Government should provide some kind of a job.

HALL: Because private enterprise cannot, you say--

JOHNSON: --cannot. Private enterprise cannot do it.

HALL: Why, why, why not?

JOHNSON: If I'm running a shoe store down, a shoe repair shop down on the corner here and I can wo--I can hire two people, and I have them at work and that's all, myself and my two helpers, that's as much labor as I need to run my little shoe store. But the man across the street is--needs a job. Now, to send him over there to me, I don't have another job for him. But--

HALL: --so you're saying we'll never have full employment, uh, using, using the present system of private enterprise as the main employer?

JOHNSON: Uh, I, I can't quite see it, because with my little illustration of--of my little shoe repair shop, I can't take on another worker. If I do, I'll, I'll break my little company. I'll break my little, little enterprise. I'll go bankrupt if I take on another one. I can eke out a reasonable existence for myself and pay my two helpers but I can't pay--I'd have to cut each one of my helpers to add on a third. Cut myself and cut both of them. And, uh, that isn't, uh, good business. So now what, uh--the government ought to, ought to figure out, uh, well, we've got, uh--we, we built that flood wall I mentioned. Uh, we built, uh, three-fourths of the district. Well, why the hell didn't you build it to the other four? There's some other people down there still at the mercy of that Ohio River. That's something could be done. Uh, there are a lot of farms 00:40:00that need to be, uh, oh, um, uh, irrigated. A lot of people out in California who could, who could raise more, more, uh, vegetables and lettuce and, uh, and carrots, peas, all that kind of stuff, if their land, if their lands were irrigated. Well, why don't you irrigate it? You've got all that water running down from the Colorado River and whatnot. Uh, why not? Why not? Why not? Why not put--why not do all these things? And put these people to work. You're going to give them food anyhow. Make them work for it.

HALL: So you're saying there is enough work to be done.

JOHNSON: Yeah. There's enough work to be done. Put the people to work.

HALL: Well, how much of the economy would the government have to own then are you suggesting?

JOHNSON: Well, uh, it doesn't bother me how they do it. I don't care if they take it all because, after all--remember, uh, the, the, the, the, the safety 00:41:00valve for me is to think in terms of 'who is the government?' Now, don't, don't put in a bunch of--don't put in a bunch of bureaucrats, um, and let them take over as if, uh, they own the corporation and that they are working for themselves and, and, uh--no, no. They are our servants. I, I like to look at the mayor and the governor right now, and, "Just look, Mr. Governor. I, I called you Honorable Governor but I don't know why you should be called Honorable. You just, you just a, a hired hand. You just a top hired hand of the state of Kentucky. That's all. And damn it, get about your business and do your work. We are paying you. We're giving you a lot of honor and a lot of cash pay and a lot of embodiments of all sorts. Uh, you ought to earn them. Now, now what are you doing to earn them?" The President of the United States? He's, he's--after all, 00:42:00he's a servant. That's all. He's just a--he's the highest most, most, uh, uh--uh, he's the highest ranking public official we have but, but still he's--just like the janitor, he's, he's performing a service.

HALL: Um, so you don't see any inconsistency between a--between socialism and democracy? The people can still, still rule.

JOHNSON: Well, no, no. I'm, I'm a stickler for if there--it may be a little, little redundant but I'd rather be redundant and be clear on the subject. Uh, I believe in Democratic Socialism. You said chris--

HALL: --and that is?

JOHNSON: You said Christian Socialism a few minutes ago.

HALL: Christian so--

JOHNSON: --and I want to get away from the idea of Christian because, you know, just about ninety percent of the people who use the word Christian don't, uh, don't know what they're, what they're--they're playing with, with a powerful word. Christian is a power--that's a powerful word. Uh, Democratic Socialism is 00:43:00my, my, my terminology.

HALL: So you--

JOHNSON: --Democratic Socialism is socialism under the control of the majority of the people. Democratic. The people shall control it.

HALL: Can the government, though, be as efficient in running the economy as, uh, as private enterprise, do you think?

JOHNSON: Well, if you, if you, if you watch them, if you make them.

HALL: So say--

JOHNSON: --I'm working, I'm working on the board of education now and, and, and the trouble is, uh, we, we got into a, a situation where the sup--

[Pause.]

JOHNSON: --uh, uh, trying to let the superintendent and all of his chief, uh, aides, and--and the staff as a whole, all the way down to the--to the most humble, uh, janitor or custodian, to let them know that, uh, they must be accountable to the people and not do as--as they choose. They are not--they are 00:44:00not free agents to do as they wish, and that's what you have to watch in any type of government. I just gave you the illustration of, uh, of building flood walls. That's out--that's over and beyond the--the--the competence of any local business concern. I gave you a bigger illustra--better illustration, the, uh, TVA. Just completely out of the realm of private business. Private business just doesn't have the clout to operate.

HALL: It--it doesn't have the capital, but, now, who--who actually--

JOHNSON: --it doesn't have--it doesn't--

HALL: --constructed it--

JOHNSON: --it doesn't--it doesn't have the clout. And I--I mean the--if they need to take a piece of property that belongs--(Hall clears throat)--to a certain family, we--in the name of the state, eminent domain, the government is the only one that can exercise eminent domain. We can take your private 00:45:00property. Sure enough, we should give you fair compensation for your property, and then perhaps throw in a little something just to--to, uh, make it palatable. But by no means should a private individual stand in the way of the development of the--uh, of the area for the benefit of society as a whole. Now, a private corporation doesn't have that authority. It just doesn't. And I call it clout.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: The--but the state--in the name of the state, uh, when--when--when you go down the Tennessee River, down the banks of the Tennessee River, we say, "Now, we've got to straighten the river out here, and we need to buy up maybe a--a--a--a--two or three thousand acres of ground here, and maybe a hundred thousand over there, and whatnot. And--and whatever we need, we'll take. But 00:46:00we'll be kind to the people from whom we take it, and we will--(Hall clears throat)--give due compensation." Now, private concerns can't do that.

HALL: Um-hm. Well, now, but--now, we're talking about large projects, like the TVA--

JOHNSON: --um-hm--

HALL: --and flood walls--

JOHNSON: --um-hm--

HALL: --and so on. And we're talking about the government providing capital, really, for those developments.

JOHNSON: That's right.

HALL: But who--can--can the government also not only pro--provide the capital, but do the work? Can--now, I know you--the example of--of public schools, because th--they--they are owned, in effect, by the government, or--or by the people--

JOHNSON: Yeah, that's right.

HALL: --through the--through the--through their government agencies.

JOHNSON: Uh, the educational government.

HALL: Can--can--can the government also--because, see, a lot of the contracts--uh, a lot of the money that the government spends is spent through private companies. I mean, they--they have the money, and they say, "We'll pay you to do"--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --"uh, such and such a job for us." But you're saying that the government 00:47:00can also, uh, do the work, can--can have--can have its own companies, its own--its own--

JOHNSON: --wait--uh, wait a minute. I can go back--

HALL: --dam-building companies and so on.

JOHNSON: The--you mentioned the school system. There--(Hall clears throat)--there are some jobs--there are about, say, twenty-five schools, twenty-five buildings, out of the total, maybe, of all the buildings, and they have two hundred or so. Twenty-five need to have new roofs put on them. Now, we've got a--a--a staff of people who are tinners, and we send them around. Now, if, uh--

HALL: --they're employed by the school board.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Year-round. Now, we can keep this staff, uh, this, uh, complement of, say, twenty-five tinners, roofers, we can keep them busy. We can guarantee them jobs year-round. But, now, ten other houses begin leaking. And it might be 00:48:00cheaper--it might be more economical to call in a roofing company from out in town and ask them--or--or maybe several of them--to take bids on fixing these ten roofs. And it might be better--it might be more economical--to use private concerns to do that--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --than to add to our staff of twenty-five, uh, regular employees, because after we fix those ten, we've got them stuck on our hands for a whole year, and we've got to give them work. So then we--I would supplement the work of the--of the paid staff by putting out other jobs on--on a bid basis to a private concern.

HALL: So--so you're saying that--that--that--that government ownership of, uh, of part of the economy c--coexists with private ownership of--

JOHNSON: --no reason--no reason--I--I wouldn't fuss with that at all. I--I--I--I would--

HALL: --but each should do what it can do most efficiently?

JOHNSON: That's correct.

HALL: Is that what you're saying?

JOHNSON: Whichever--now, if we find that we can, by getting these ten, if we find by taking bids on these, and maybe four or five private comp--uh, companies, uh, bid on this--if we find that we can get the roof put on those ten buildings per building cheaper than these twenty-five, then the thing to do is to cut down on our staff and call in more private concerns. (coughs) But when the private concerns begin to take us for a ride, then it might be better to hire our own people. And when I say our own people, that means, uh, the government. It would be better for the government to get a staff of its own.

HALL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: But when it gets to a place where you--it becomes inefficient, uh, if--if the private sector can, uh, can, uh, can do it more effectively and 00:50:00efficiently, economically, there's no reason why you shouldn't, uh, ----------(??).

HALL: Well, but should--should the government come in and take over an industry when it starts to lose money? I'm thinking of--

JOHNSON: --you--you're thinking about railroads.

HALL: Railroads and the--

JOHNSON: ------------(??)--one of the biggest--

HALL: --public transit.

JOHNSON: --one of the biggest--one of the biggest things to support my--my--my economic, uh, socialist versus capitalist philosophy--one of the biggest, uh, uh, illustrations that I have is, I think, the Pennsylvania and Amtrak railroad. There is no reason in the world why we should let private industry run things and take off such big chunks in--in the name of profits, dividends, that they 00:51:00don't have enough left in their coffers to run the thing. And then we've got to have all of this transportation system, so then they dump the defunct s--system on the government. Then when the government reach over--reaches over into the common treasury and--and--and--and spreads enough money around in the--in the, uh, setup, in the, uh, uh, economy--that is, the--the railroad, uh, economy--when out of the public treasury, you take enough money to put the thing back on its feet. Then in come these vultures saying, all right, now, it's--it's running again. Turn it back over to us so we can go ahead and run it like we did before. Which means that they can get the profits out of it? No. If they want to run it and take all of the profits that come in, instead of dishing it out to 00:52:00private individuals, dish it out to build more schools and hospitals. Then you're--then it's all right, if--we'd be glad to have your expertise. But if you--if you ran it in a hole, if you ran it into, uh--into bankruptcy, then toss it over to the government to bail you out, and get the thing running again, then don't give it back to the damn fools that, uh, that--that ran it into bankruptcy, uh, in--in their greedy idea of--of profit. No. No ----------(??).

HALL: Isn't that--but isn't--hasn't that been the case in this country's history?

JOHNSON: Yeah, well, that's the reason I'm against it. Yeah.

HALL: Because--

JOHNSON: --sure, sure--

HALL: --because the railroads made billions and billions--

JOHNSON: --yeah, yeah--

HALL: --of dollars for their owners, uh--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --throughout most of our history--

JOHNSON: --yeah, yeah, yeah--

HALL: --and now that they're not profitable--

JOHNSON: --the railroads are--are--what about that, uh, New York--New York Central? I--I think--oh, I'm not teaching this stuff now, but when I used to teach it, I used to have my illustrations right down--right down, one right after another. N--uh, New York Central Railroad, they gave to the members of the 00:53:00state legislature enough capital stock in the railroad corporation. What did the--what did those members of the legislature pay? Nothing. What did they put in? Nothing. But when--when you start paying, all--all who have stock in the thing get a certain percent, uh, in--in--in profits. Well, now, you ought not to get a profit where you didn't put up capital. But what did they do? They voted out, uh, rights of way for the trains to run through. And, uh, they--they voted correctly. But why--why talk about New York? We had the L&N do the same thing here in Kentucky.

HALL: You mean that the legislature gave them--

JOHNSON: --Yeah, that's right--

HALL: --land grants.

JOHNSON: The legislature--legislators back in the 1890s took Kentucky for a 00:54:00ride. They were set up there to protect the interests of the--of the people of Kentucky, and--and sold it to the--uh, to the L&N Railroad--gave it to the L&N Railroad for a little--little handouts. I don't know how much they got. No way to tell. No way to judge. It's just a matter of speculation. I'd better get myself--better be careful--(Hall laughs)--because some, uh--some, uh--some--some of the grandchildren might sue me for libel.

HALL: Well, that's--that's not ----------(??)----------.

JOHNSON: Well, uh, I--I--well, I--I--I--I'll run real quick, and--and leave, uh--leave, uh, New York, because that's too far away. Leave Kentucky, that's too close home. I--I'd take the same thing up in--up in Michigan. In Michigan, they sold--uh, they gave to the railroad company to build the Northwestern, uh, um, starting out from, uh, over in Michigan somewhere, and, uh, Wisconsin, and, uh, Minnesota, and all the--all out to--to Washington state. A land--a--a--a strip 00:55:00of land ten miles wide. Gave it to the company. And then went through there and cut down--they got rich off of the timber that they cut down.

HALL: These are public lands that they gave to them, right?

JOHNSON: They gave away--and--and--and--and all--(Hall clears throat)--the money they made off of those--off of the timber went--(Hall coughs)--went into private profit--private pockets. Now, why didn't--why didn't the government cut the trees down and use the money to build schools like the University of Michigan and the University of Wisconsin? Why didn't they--why--why didn't they--they--they just, out of little handouts that these people got, and--and why did they limit the resources of these universities to what little handouts they could pick up along the way?

HALL: Do you think--do you think that, then, that--that we as a whole have been 00:56:00hoodwinked and brainwashed into, uh, thinking that the capitalistic system is the--is the best one, uh, or is it--and--and here, again, it seems to me that this is the powerful, uh, uh, uh, motivation for a person to believe in capitalism--even though a person may be very poor today--

JOHNSON: --um-hm--

HALL: --he--he always thinks, under a capitalistic system--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --that he can become a capitalist tomorrow--

JOHNSON: --I, um--

HALL: --and own a company, become president of a company, or start his little business and become a billionaire.

JOHNSON: John D. Rockefeller, Ashland, all the rest of them, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, in my classes, I used to liken all this process to a poker game. People, 00:57:00uh--people who play poker have a just--they just have a craving for chance, for--in--in--in the hope that, uh--you know, just like at the racetrack, like in any gambling den, the--the--the hope is, "I know all of us can't win, but I hope I am the one who does win." And that is the fascination that goes along with any gambling game.

HALL: So capitalism is a gamble for the people.

JOHNSON: Absolutely. I can--I can, uh--oh, I used to have a buildup of, uh--of--of these things. I used to say, when, when children--little boys, ten, twelve years of age, they--they play around out in the yard. Each one puts in 00:58:00three marbles, and--and ten people, they put in three marbles. Then you take turns, and you try to thump, try to knock them out. And all you knock out, you have. After about half an hour, two people are sitting up on the fence looking down at the rest of them play. And after about two hours, the same number of marbles are in the ring, but there are only two people shooting at them. All the other eight boys are sitting out. They're broke. That's society. Now, that's--that's when you're just ten years of age. You're playing for keeps. My mother and father wouldn't let us play for keeps. They'd say, "That's gambling. No, don't do that." All right. But when you get a little bigger, you--you--you get two--two bones, little--little dice with dots on them, and you roll them. 00:59:00You get a little bigger, and you get a little more sophisticated, a little more sophisticated, a little older, a little more--little--little--little further up. Y--you go up to New York and watch the stock market. The stock market. On an international level, back in the eighteen--1880s, nineties, it was--it was, uh, the colonies in Africa, Asia. Got us into a lot of debt. England had so much. See--see, little boys, young men, big corporations. Now they're countries. England, France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, and the United States aiding and abetting on the side, got us into World War I, all from this gambling business. 01:00:00At the end of World War I, Germany was badly screwed. Beat to----------(??), and England and France--we just gouged them. And we, the United States, felt rather sympathetic. We started giving things to Germany to get Germany back on her feet. (clears throat) And England and France were--were squeezing out of Germany, uh, what we gave Germany. And we looked around and said--(laughs)--"You rascals. Now, we gave you money, too. Pay us." So we put the screws on England and France to make them quit putting the screws on Germany. But by 1930, Germany was, uh, uh, uh, was so d--far down in the dumps that, uh, Hitler comes along and says, "You do what I tell you to do, I'll be your savior." So the first--the 01:01:00first half of the ballgame was played in World War I--(clears throat)--and then along comes World War II. Germany's back on her feet, and Germany says, "Well--well, we want some of the marbles. We want some of the chips." And England and France say, "No, you--you shall not have." So World War I was not--not a complete battle. It was just the first phase. World War II was just the second. I--I--I--I've said, perhaps, the third quarter. And I just hope, by god, we'll never get around to the fourth quarter.

HALL: What do you think the fourth quarter would be?

JOHNSON: It would be the Holocaust. All of us would go up in smoke. See, we've got the--we've got the atomic weapons now. And there's--and there's no use in anybody bringing on--let's don't--let's don't--(Hall clears throat)--let's don't play the fourth quarter. Let's don't play it. The--the--uh, everybody--everybody--everybody has, uh, nitrogen and, uh, hydrogen bombs, 01:02:00guided missiles, and, uh, nothing about any--anybody wanting to be a bad actor, just--just touch the button, and we'll touch the button at the same time, and it'll all just go up in a great conflagration. Let's don't--let's don't play--let's don't play the third--uh, the--the fourth quarter.

HALL: But isn't there something in human nature that is attracted to gambling, to danger--

JOHNSON: --I say--

HALL: --to risk--

JOHNSON: --I say--I say it's--it's a fascination. It's a fascination. And there is where the discipline comes in. I have sat around any number of things. But I say "I will not--I will not." My parents told me it's wrong to take from another person his substance, and leave him broke, without giving him something of value 01:03:00in exchange. And gambling is--it's--it's--it's the consolation that the gambler has when he says it is recreation. But it takes a lot of self-discipline.

HALL: That's a form of greed, too, isn't it, gambling? Because you assume that you're going to get more than you give.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HALL: I--isn't--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --isn't it?

JOHNSON: As, uh, uh, my nephew--did you meet him the other day? Have you seen the young man who stays here sometimes?

HALL: No.

JOHNSON: He's, uh--he's quite--he thinks he's -------------(??). Uh, he's--he's reasonably brilliant, and is a good--is a well-read person. Even--even right now, he, uh--I expect he's got about six or eight library books.

HALL: So he's in school?

JOHNSON: Right now.

HALL: He's in school?

JOHNSON: No--no, no. He's fifty years old.

HALL: H--how old?

JOHNSON: Fifty.

HALL: What's his name?

JOHNSON: Blue, Thomas Blue.

HALL: Oh, yeah, I know him. But I didn't know he--he was here in--

JOHNSON: --yeah, he--he--

HALL: --oh, yeah, I know Thomas.

JOHNSON: Thomas Blue. He's fifty years old, or--or more. But, uh, when he was a--a child, he was playing solitaire. When he was about fifteen years of age, he was playing solitaire in my house. He was living--he and his, uh, mother and brother lived on Chestnut Street. I lived out on Madison Street. He was down at my house, and my daughter came in and said, uh--my daughter was about two and a half years. And she came over and saw him over there all by himself, just playing, and he's so engrossed in his cards, and things. And, uh, she said something about, "What, uh--what game is that you're playing, Tom?" And he tried 01:05:00to explain, and she didn't--she didn't know what he was saying. But you know, she--he tried to explain it to her, but kept on playing. And I heard, somehow, the comment--she asked him some question. I don't remember what the question was she asked him, but the reply he gave was, "Well, you see, I never play any game where the sucker has an even chance to win." And I came--(Hall laughs)--I came down and said, "Tom, don't ever--don't e--don't tell my little child at two and a half years of age that that's a noble principle to--to--to follow. I never play any game where the sucker has an even chance to win." I said, 01:06:00"That--that--in the very substance, way back over the foundation of that statement is dishonesty."

HALL: Um-hm. Are--are--are you a pacifist?

JOHNSON: Absolutely.

HALL: The reason I ask, it--it seems to me that a reasonable person, if he knows that he's going to be killed if he goes into a war, will not go. He will do anything possible to stay out, to stay at home. Uh, anything. But he plays the odds, doesn't he? I mean, he's--this is the gambling again.

JOHNSON: Yeah. Well, yeah--

HALL: --it seems to me--

JOHNSON: --uh--uh--uh--

HALL: --he assumes that he'll be the one to get home.

JOHNSON: Yeah. The illustration is--is rather facetious. Don't--I don't want to pull you too far off of the main track there, but, uh, uh, the fellow who--who--who went into--into, uh, I think World War II, said that he went in 01:07:00with, kind of, a clear conscience, and, uh, quite a bit of optimism and whatnot. He said, "You see, at first, there were two chances. The chance is that they might find that I'm able bodied and can go, or they might find that I have some physical defect, and I won't go. But if they find that I have a--I'm able bodied and can go, then it may be that, uh, I would be sent to the battlefield, or I might be sent to some supply place." And--and--and it goes right on down. Yeah. "I got two choices. I got two choices. Two chances."

HALL: All--two chances, yeah, all the way down the line.

JOHNSON: And finally, when I get down to the battlefield, when they shoot at me, 01:08:00one chance is that the bullet might miss, and I'll come back alive. Or it might wipe me out. But even--even if I die, even if they kill me, I've still got two chances. In the next world, I either go to Hell or I go to Heaven. (both laugh) And I still got--

HALL: --but you see--

JOHNSON: --but--and--and the gamble is there. I--I--I--

HALL: ------------(??) all the way--

JOHNSON: --I--I'm gambling, or--or I'm getting the better of each--

HALL: --that's right--

JOHNSON: --one of the examples.

HALL: Some--somewhere along the line, I have got to luck out. And it seems to me--but you see, and--and that's the reason that--that only, I think, a r--a person who's completely rational would say that, uh, it's, uh--war is just not f--it's just not feasible, not for me, anyway. Well, I--I--I would assume that--

JOHNSON: --I would--

HALL: --you would be a pacifist.

JOHNSON: I would--I would throw this in, that among rational people, of good 01:09:00will, I don't know a single war in all history whose benefits could not have been accomplished had the people of good will sat around a table and worked it out amicably. You didn't need--I don't know a single war.

HALL: Including the Civil War.

JOHNSON: Including the Civil War. Including the Civil War.

HALL: How--how could the Civil War have been avoided? Uh, how--how can the slaves have been--

JOHNSON: --there--

HALL: --freed?

JOHNSON: --were any number of--there were any number of white Southern plantation owners who, if somebody--if somebody had told them, "Now, you've got a thousand--you've got a hundred slaves, and we recognize you bought them, and 01:10:00according to the system, legitimately paid for them. These were your property." If, somehow, we could have said to that person, "You put a reasonable price on each one, and whatever the sum total is, we will give you. Maybe a hundred thousand dollars for all of your slaves. Now turn them loose." I expect there'd been many a fellow who would have been glad to unload them. But it was wrong. It was wrong. I'm going to take the--I'm going to take the attitude of the--of--of the slave owners. It was wrong for the Northern people to come down and say, 01:11:00"Turn them loose. Just turn them loose." It--it--it--it--I--I--I just think it was wrong.

HALL: But you see, uh, uh, you have to have a loser in a war.

JOHNSON: I know, but--

HALL: --and the South had to be made aware that it was a loser.

JOHNSON: I know, but--but--

HALL: --that's the reason they couldn't be paid--

JOHNSON: --but the North--the North--as much as I'm glad--as much as I'm glad that freedom came, I must say that the North was wrong in not offering to pay for the slaves.

HALL: After the war was over?

JOHNSON: No.

HALL: Before.

JOHNSON: To prevent the war. Before the war came. In 1850, they should have said--now, they should have passed a law. "There shall be no slavery in this country." That's number one. Now, to get rid of the slaves, uh, "Mr. Smith, you 01:12:00have how many slaves?" "I have two. And, uh, uh, and on the going market they're worth a thousand dollars apiece." "Turn them loose, and go over to the--to the cashier, and pick up a check for two thousand dollars. And we'll have--we're going to have free labor from now on." Free labor was--w--was profitable in the North, and it would have been profitable in the South, but for the fact the North unloaded their slaves on the South, and then after they got--got rid--after the North didn't have any more slaves, then they got pious, and they said slavery was wrong. But they didn't--the--the Northern people never turned their slaves loose. They sold them down South.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Therefore, the rascals, they were wrong. They were hypocritical.

HALL: But there--but there were movements, weren't there, to do precisely what 01:13:00you--what you said?

JOHNSON: There were--

HALL: ------------(??)--

JOHNSON: --the--the--the abolitionists, uh, were, uh--look, whenever--whenever you try to be--try to be Christians, then people begin to--my--my brand of Christian. When you try to be Christian, then people begin to look at you and wonder what makes you so queer. What makes you so queer? Everybody else, uh, seems to be in tune with our--our vaunted concepts of--of--of--of society. But--but you, what makes you so queer? So the--the abolitionists were not--not highly appreciated in their day.

HALL: But what--it--it--it was never really possible to have--to have eliminated 01:14:00slavery short of war. Unfortunately, that's human nature, it seems to me.

JOHNSON: No, I--I say that there isn't war we have fought that was worth the killing of people--

HALL: --well, that's not--

JOHNSON: --the shedding of blood. If we could have solved all of the--all of the trouble that we had in World War I was due to the fact England and France--I mentioned this, didn't I?

HALL: Yes.

JOHNSON: England and France, Belgium and Holland, they had territory for natural resources, sources of natural resources, where, when they got the natural resources and brought to the home country, to the--to the so-called mother country, and made up into finished goods, then they had provinces where they got those raw materials, where they could go back with the finished products. They could sell--they could buy the raw materials at--at--at a cheap price and sell 01:15:00back the finished products at a high price, gyp the poor people out there in the colonies going and coming. And Germany says, "We have just as much sense--just as much brainpower as any of the rest of these white folk, and we want some of the territory." And England, and France, and Belgium, and Holland said, "No, we are not going to give you anything. We're not going to sell you anything." And Germany said, "Well, where can we get some?" They said, "Oh, it's too late. (laughs) The--all the good places are gobbled up." And then you had war. Now, the thing to--to have prevented World War I, what we should have done was to make England and France--if you're going to keep the capitalist, uh, uh, uh, idea--make England and France divide up with Germany. Now, that--they--they were too greedy. They would not do it. And--and, uh, well, the very nature of 01:16:00capitalism is that, uh, when you're in the--when you--when you're in the driver's seat, don't move over, because it's bad when you--when you get, uh, in--in--into a defunct society (??).

HALL: Now--now World War II may very well have been a second act--

JOHNSON: --no question about it--

HALL: --of--of World War I.

JOHNSON: No question about it.

HALL: But--but--

JOHNSON: --no question about it. If--if you go back to the--the ten years from 1920 to 1930 and see how England, and France, and--and all the rest of the, uh, so-called Western Powers, uh, but under the leadership of England and France, how mean they treated Germany. I mean, there was no--there was no peaceful, uh, prospect in sight. All you needed was somebody like Hitler to come along and--and--and--and--and be a savior for the German people. And he did a pretty good job. And--and--and--and--and if it hadn't been for the United States, again, uh, England and France would have paid like hell. They would have paid 01:17:00like hell for--for what, uh--oh, who would have paid for it? Talleyrand goes back too far. He goes back to the, uh, war of eighteen--eighteen--

HALL: --ch--ch--not Chamberlain.

JOHNSON: No, Chamberlain was, uh, World War II.

HALL: He was the--okay.

JOHNSON: Um, um, Orlando, and who--he was the ----------(??) there. Who was the--Wilson. Wilson was--tried to--Lloyd George. No, uh, who--who--who--

HALL: --oh, uh--oh--

JOHNSON: --who were the--who were the big five? See, you--you--you--you got ----------(??)--

HALL: --uh, around World War I?

JOHNSON: World War I.

HALL: Well, it has to be right here. We could--but what I'm--what--

JOHNSON: --but those five--those five, uh, the big countries. Italy--United States, Italy, France, Germany--

HALL: --um--

JOHNSON: --no. Uh, England, France, and, uh, uh, Germany--I mean, uh, uh, Italy, 01:18:00and the United States. They were four. Uh, I don't know whether, uh, Japan was in on it or not. I think Japan was in there. But the three big shots, the three big shots were the--the--Roosev--I mean, uh, uh, Woodrow Wilson, and Wilson, as much of a dev--as a devil I thought he was--here in the United States on--on--on the race situation--race prejudice. He was--he was--he--he--he was mean.

HALL: He was a racist, you ----------(??)?

JOHNSON: Yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes. He was--he--he--he all but bragged about it. But when he tried to bring sense out of this situation, he moved up on high ground, and so I--I must sing his praises. (Hall laughs) He did all he could to keep the English prime minister and the French prime minister from just gouging 01:19:00the very eyes out of those German people. They were just so determined that the Germans should never--should never be a threat to England and France forever. Never again, forever. And, uh, uh, Woodrow Wilson tried his best to talk some sense into their ears, and he almost--some people say he did. They're crazy, because the United States government, the United States Senate, would not agree with the kindness, the--the, uh, Christian, approach that Mr. Woodrow Wilson tried to bring into the family of nations there, with reference--

HALL: --with the League of--with the League of Nations?

JOHNSON: Yeah. With the, uh, the relations to, uh, Germany, and--

HALL: --now, you're not excusing Hitler.

JOHNSON: Oh, no. Oh, I'm just saying--

HALL: --you're--you're saying that--that we were respon--

JOHNSON: --I'm just saying that we are responsible for gr--poor people in Germany. When we were talking about the Depression in this country, those people over there were--we didn't know what a Depression was.

HALL: Hmm.

JOHNSON: There, the inflation was so great that they'd take a bale of paper money, German money, and walk into a grocery, and--and leave it all bound up in a paper bag. This is the way I tell it. Leave it all bound up in a--in--in--in--tied up in--the--the--the baker would say, "Here, take the bread, and don't take time to count it, because it isn't worth anything." That was happening in 1930. Many a person was freezing in the cold winters of, uh, uh, '29 and '30 in Germany, because they just--they just didn't have anything. And 01:21:00Hitler--Hitler just rose to the top. He said, "You poor people. You've let these people kick you around, and--and mistreat you, and all that. You don't need to do that. Do as I say do, and I'll put you to work. I'll put you to work. I'll find work for you." And he did. But, uh, uh, in--in one sentence, I--I--I--I can show what was, uh, uh, the solution to--to the unemployment problem. He sent soldiers across the border. For every soldier he sent out, down into Austria, and, oh, Czechoslovakia, wherever else he sent, for every soldier he sent across the border, he put ten people to work at that ----------(??)----------. So he's 01:22:00putting eleven people to work who had been, uh, unemployed. And they said, "He's the savior." And so when they found out, six years later, he'd led them down the wrong track.

HALL: But given--given--okay. Now--now, it's inexcusable that--that conditions were allowed to get so bad in Germany.

JOHNSON: Right.

HALL: But--but the--but--but we're always getting into--could--or having conditions like that. Given those conditions, then was there anything short of a war that could have contained Hitler?

JOHNSON: Sure, if it had, uh, as a--a--a--like we do now, uh, if we had, uh, some of the atomic, uh, bombs, uh, nitrogen bombs, just sitting up on a shelf, and anybody get--anybody get--uh, anybody get rambunctious, just point up there. Say, "You want to knock that stuff off the wall? If not, sit down." And you--let's--let's continue to talk. Let's continue to talk. We--we--we don't 01:23:00want any war with Russia now. Hmm.

HALL: But we--

JOHNSON: --we don't want any war with the Russians.

HALL: But we fought the Vietnam War.

JOHNSON: Yeah, but--but Vietnam didn't have any--any--any--any--any nuclear--

HALL: --we haven't learned any lesson, have we? Have we learned anything--

JOHNSON: --yeah, we do. We know this. We know--we know very well that all Mr.--Mr.--what--what's his name--Jimmy Carter has to do, if Russia--if Russia sends one bomb--one of those guided missiles toward Detroit, all Mr. Carter's got to do is to push a button, and one will go to Moscow, and to Leningrad, and--and--and--and whatnot. There's no defense.

HALL: Well, no.

JOHNSON: And--and that--and--and I'm talking--

HALL: You're just talking about big wars--

JOHNSON: --I'm just--I'm just--

HALL: --though--

JOHNSON: --I'm just so glad we've got the stuff. (laughs) If--if we won't be--if we won't be--if we won't be human--if we won't be civilized human beings, without the pressure of hydrogen bombs, then--(laughs)--thank you, Mr.--uh, Mr. 01:24:00Einstein. I'm glad you--I'm glad you--you--you made it, uh--that's the only way we'll--we'll behave.

HALL: You--you--you mean, otherwi--we're going to behave, or--or--or not e---or not be.

JOHNSON: That--that's right. With all the preachings, all the nice--nice popes, and bishops, and priests, and all these people who come along, the one big fault I have with Christ himself was, he--he leaves you the opportunity to be bad if you want to. He says, "If you will be--if you will behave yourself and live a decent life, it would be so nice. But if you choose to be a devil, then go ahead 01:25:00and be one." You've got a choice to be good or bad, and Christ--as I see Christ's teachings. But now--(laughs)--with that--that, uh, stuff up there, hydrogen on one side, uh, atomic, uh, energy on the other, um--

HALL: --but should we have a cho--

JOHNSON: --we don't have--we don't have any choice.

HALL: Well, yeah, we--

JOHNSON: --we don't have any--we've just got to be good.

HALL: Because--because that--

JOHNSON: --we've got to be good.

HALL: Well, we--we do in--in--in the big sense of the word. In the sense of, uh, uh, uh, a nuclear war. But we have to have choices, don't we, to be human beings? Should--shouldn't you have a choice as to whether you do right or wrong?

JOHNSON: No.

HALL: No?

JOHNSON: No, no.

HALL: Why not? Don't--

JOHNSON: --I don't--

HALL: --don't you believe in free will?

JOHNSON: I know if you are stronger than I am, I don't want you to have a choice of whether to choke me or pat me on the back. I don't want you to have that choice. Unh-uh. No, no, no. I'm not going to--yeah, you ought to be made to--to keep your hands off of me. That's right.

HALL: Well, is there any area--okay, there's some things--

JOHNSON: --I don't want to--I don't want you to have--

HALL: --that a person shouldn't have to choose--

JOHNSON: --I--where--

HALL: --no--

JOHNSON: --I'm concerned, I don't want you to have a choice--

HALL: --well--

JOHNSON: --as to whether--whether you can send my--my child to a little r--uh, rinky-dink school down here on the corner, and send--send your child to a real nice, uh, place. I don't want you to have a choice--

HALL: Well--

JOHNSON: --to send me out there to play basketball outdoors in the--in--in the yard, like they did when I was a kid, and send little white kids over there to play basketball indoors in the wintertime on a beautiful hardwood floor. I don't want you to have that choice. I want you to be made to put a--a--a--a hardwood floor in all schools--

HALL: --hmm--

JOHNSON: --or in none. I don't want you to have a choice to--

HALL: --well--

JOHNSON: --do--do other people--

HALL: --that's why we have laws for--for--for certain things. But are there any areas in which I should have a choice? Or you should have a choice?

JOHNSON: Oh, if, uh, if you go in there, I--I think I--I--I--I have a grapefruit in there right now. I don't have but one. But I've got a grapefruit in there, and I've got several apples in there. And you'd have a choice. You--you can choose whichever one, because, uh, uh, uh, the--the impact of what you do, it does not rebound detrimentally to somebody else.

HALL: Hmm. So you don't mind that.

JOHNSON: See, I don't want you--I don't want you to have a choice as to whether you treat your fellow man right or wrong. I want you to treat him right.

HALL: Okay. Okay. So you draw the line between, uh, uh, uh, free will, uh, when it--when it affects somebody else.

JOHNSON: That's correct. I don't think you have any right to choose to be wrong to somebody else. No, no, no. I--I--I--I--I refuse--I--I--I reject that--that type of morality. Don't want any part of it. Because, as I said, uh, with my 01:28:00arthritic condition, I wouldn't be able to defend myself.

HALL: So you--so you're really--(sighs)--(clears throat)--attacking God, in a sense, Lyman, because--

JOHNSON: --well, if he--if--if--

HALL: --it seems to me he gave man free will in the garden of Eden--

JOHNSON: --if--if--if God--if God is unjust, I don't want to go to his heaven. Right? Yeah. I'm--I'm--

HALL: --he's not unjust--

JOHNSON: --and that--and some people said, "Well, Lyman, at that rate, you--you got no business being in the church." I said, "Well, you can put me out whenever you please--(Hall laughs)--because I don't give a damn." I don't want to go to God's heaven if he's going to be unjust.

HALL: ----------(??)

JOHNSON: If he's going to--if he's going to let, uh, let s--one bunch of people have nice, pretty, uh, things over here, and I got--I got to come and peek through the fence, and see all the nice, pretty things that you have, and through no fault of my own, I am shut out, then God, you can have that heaven. I'd just as soon go on to hell, and burn, and be done with it.

HALL: Well, but, no, no. That's--that's not what I'm--as I understand it, free 01:29:00will means to me that God is saying, "You--you can--you can choose the wrong path, and in choosing the wrong path, you may have all the pretty things, but you--you--you--you--you--it's your choosing to go to hell. Uh, and in--and in--and in taking the route to hell, you may be abusing some people." But he gave man, as I understand it, free will to choose to do--to--to do good or evil. And in do--and in ch--having the freedom to do evil, he, uh, gave man the right to abuse his fellow man. You say--you say that he made a mistake, then?

JOHNSON: Yeah, sure he did. Sure--

HALL: --no--

JOHNSON: --he did. Sure. He made--I don't see why--

HALL: --it was a mistake--

JOHNSON: --I don't see--I don't see why he should give you--

HALL: --he's not going to reward me for it. No, I'm not saying that.

JOHNSON: I'm not talking about that. I don't want--I don't want to be punished unjustly.

HALL: But you won't be. Now, I'm not--I--I--I'm talk--I'm not talking about any--

JOHNSON: --oh, yes. Yes, yes, I will--

HALL: --any final analysis.

JOHNSON: My--my--my--my--my--my, uh, experience down there in Tennessee was--I was--

HALL: --oh, oh, yeah, but I mean--

JOHNSON: --I was, uh, uh, I haven't--I haven't yet seen where it was, uh, fair. Maybe it made me rougher and tougher to--to fight later. And maybe you use that sort of rationalization to justify, uh, making my people work in the plantations and whatnot. Maybe--maybe--maybe--

HALL: --so God--God made a flaw. There's a flaw--

JOHNSON: --no, I--

HALL: --in creation.

JOHNSON: I--I don't grant the first premise.

HALL: What's that?

JOHNSON: That God e--expects you to--to--to--to choose to do as you please.

HALL: Why not? Well, I--apparently he does, because we have that--we--we--we're--we do it.

JOHNSON: Yeah, we do it, in violation--

HALL: --so he--he must have given us the right, or we wouldn't have it, would we? If he didn't give us free will, uh, uh, which means, to me, the right to choose evil as well as good, uh, then where did we get it?

JOHNSON: That's, uh--

HALL: --the--the Devil didn't give it to us, because he--if--if you say he gave it to us, then--then you're giving him equal power with God. Well, anyway--(laughs)--that's--

JOHNSON: --I know. I, uh, I--I--

HALL: --it--it--it's, uh--

JOHNSON: --I--I just--I just clam up when you--when--when--when--when you get around to that. I just--I'm--I--I just don't try to justify who--who or what God is. That's, uh--uh, that's a concept so far beyond my finite, um, uh, capabilities, that, uh, uh, I--I--I--I--I--I refuse to try to--to--to hem God up into, uh, some little definition of mine. I just simply say that if he condones--if he condones somebody doing wrong to me, to his fellow man, whether 01:32:00it's--whether I'm the recipient or not, I measure in the same way as if it were I, when I say, "do it unto you." Uh, I--I just--I just can't--I just can't give God credit.

HALL: Well, then, let's change condone to allow. What if he allows it? Is that--

JOHNSON: --I just think it--

HALL: --bad, too--

JOHNSON: --I just think he'd be--he's just about as wrong as for me if I saw a--a--a child playing right over there, and a bad dog come in here and--and--a mad dog, as well as a bad one. A great big, bad, mad dog, uh, in the sense of a dog--you--you know, a mad dog, uh, who's--who's already off--off his rocker.

HALL: Sure.

JOHNSON: Okay. Now he's going to make an attack on a child.

HALL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: And I've got a pistol in my hand. And I just sit back and give him a 01:33:00choice? No, no. I don't think that would be fair to the little child. Hmm. I--I--I--

HALL: --you sound like Mark Twain ----------(??).

JOHNSON: I don't--I don't know what--(Hall laughs)--the------------(??)---------- but--but I am not--I'm not going--I'm not going to give God any credit at all, if he would let the dog come in and--and--and--with his--what is it, rabid condition?

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And bite the child. No.

HALL: But he ha--but God has allowed this, apparently, in the past.

JOHNSON: I'm not going to--I'm not going to concede that. That's what they tell me.

HALL: Where did it come from?

JOHNSON: That's what they tell me. You see, some of these things be--are--are so far beyond my--my--my range of comprehension that I refuse. My self-discipline keeps me from speculating on that. That's what they told me, all my days, that God did--God's--God is responsible. God is responsible. No, hell, you're responsible. And I think you ought to be made to pay for your sins.

HALL: Oh, well, that's--yeah, that's--let--let--let's go back to, uh, to Tennessee, uh, uh, wi--

JOHNSON: Suits me.

HALL: (laughs) You have a document that you were going to read, showing where your, uh, grandfather, uh, bought your grandmother from--what time do you have to finish?

JOHNSON: Oh, I--

HALL: --do you have a--do you have a meeting--

JOHNSON: --yeah, it's--

HALL: --a board meeting?

JOHNSON: Yeah. Got a board meeting tonight.

HALL: ----------(??)

JOHNSON: Had one last night, I got one tonight.

HALL: I know you all are meeting all the time.

JOHNSON: And I got one Thursday night. And they are taking up too much of my time. But, uh--

HALL: --it's important work that you're doing.

JOHNSON: I'm going--I'm going to keep up with them if I can. (Hall laughs) I'm going to keep up with them if--

HALL: --things are hopping all over, I know, on the--on the board.

JOHNSON: I will try to read this as best I can, but, um, a--as you see here, it's, uh, uh, getting a little--little, uh, difficult to read. It starts off by 01:35:00saying, "State of Tennessee, Maury County. Know all men by these precepts, that I, Nancy White, of the state and county aforesaid, have this day sold and do hereby convey to Dyer Johnson"--now, Dyer Johnson was my grandpa--"I do hereby convey to Dyer Johnson, a free man of color, to his heirs and assigns forever, for the sum of three hundred dollars to me paid, one Negro slave named Betty"--now, that was my grandmother--"aged about thirty years, of mulatto 01:36:00color. I warrant the title of said slave to said Dyer Johnson, his heirs and assigns against the lawful claims of all persons, but I do not warrant the said slave Betty to be a healthy and sound woman. This is dated May the tenth, 1852. My hand and seal." And here's the name. And she drew a little seal, and wrote in the middle of it, "seal." And it was attested to by I. B. Hamilton, trustee--no, 01:37:00um, and, um, I can't make this out, but, uh, uh--

HALL: --those are the witnesses--

JOHNSON: --W--W. Watson. These were the witnesses.

HALL: And it is signed by, um, Mrs. White, Nancy White.

JOHNSON: Nancy White.

HALL: And th--this is the original document, too.

JOHNSON: That's it.

HALL: Um--

JOHNSON: --that was the--the paper that he had, that he could take, uh, uh, to show that she, now, not a free person. She was not free. She was transferred to another owner.

HALL: So--

JOHNSON: --that owner happened to be my grandfather.

HALL: Um-hm. So your--

JOHNSON: --who was her husband.

HALL: --grandfather owned your grandmother legally--

JOHNSON: --that's right--

HALL: --until--

JOHNSON: --according to that paper, if she were living, and--and--and--and no--no one had, uh--no--no--this had not been, um, uh, annulled, then--

HALL: --by Dyer--

JOHNSON: --if I wanted to, since I am now the possessor of this paper, um, I'm one of the heirs and assigns. I'm one of the heirs.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I could sell my grandmother.

HALL: Um-hm. Or any of her issue, directly--descending.

JOHNSON: That's right. That's right.

HALL: Um-hm. Uh--

JOHNSON: --unless they had been, uh, proposed--uh, disposed of otherwise.

HALL: Um-hm. Well, why was she so cheap?

JOHNSON: She says there--

HALL: --unhealthy--

JOHNSON: --she says--

HALL: --what was her--

JOHNSON: --that "I do not warrant that she is of a sound body." She was a--a--a--an invalid.

HALL: What--what, uh--was she crippled in--

JOHNSON: --yeah. I don't know what, uh--she was just a--a--a weak, uh, sickly--sickly person.

HALL: How old did she live to be?

JOHNSON: About eighty.

HALL: Eighty? (both laugh) She obviously--(laughs)--thrived all--

JOHNSON: --had--had three children, and all the chil--two of the--one of the--the--the youngest of the three children, uh, uh--I mean, the one who died 01:39:00at the youngest age was the daughter, and she was about eighty-three, And the two childr--two boys lived one to be ninety and one to be ninety-two.

HALL: (laughs) Gosh. How does--how does this make you feel, to see something like this, to have something like that in the--in your possession?

JOHNSON: It, uh, it--it's a part of, uh, our teaching, our, uh, our rearing not to be ashamed of the circumstances from which you rise, for which you were not responsible. Now, what do you do with your situation? There is where the honor or blame should be placed. Now, it's not my fault that my parents--my 01:40:00grandparents, all four of them, were slaves. Not my fault. And therefore, I make no apology to anybody. And I try my best to go up and down the ways, and--and highways and byways in the--in the black community, and try to dispel the despondency too many of the blacks have, pitying themselves because they were born from slavery. Wasn't their fault.

HALL: I guess a lot of whites were indentured servants, and they--which was a form of slavery, too, wasn't it?

JOHNSON: Many whites were actual slaves. In Roman days--

HALL: --hmm--

JOHNSON: --uh, Romans had Greeks--Greek scholars were slaves.

HALL: Hmm.

JOHNSON: And they would--when the--when the Roman generals would pass through 01:41:00Greece and--and they'd say, "Gee, this is a highly trained person. I'll take this guy back to Rome to teach my children." So he was a slave carried back to teach. Well, of course, uh, uh, the good or bad--the--the good thing about that was, um, that the Greek slave didn't teach Roman civilization to the Roman children. (laughs) He taught them Greek civilization.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And therefore, it was a benefit. The Greeks--the--the--the Romans carried Greek civilization wherever they went. So, uh, it--it--it was a benefit. But, um, the on--on--only thing I'm saying is, not only white people had been slaves--some whites. Not only some whites, but I mean to say, highly trained intellectuals.

HALL: Hmm.

JOHNSON: Greek--Greek, uh, uh, Greeks were--were--were speaking the Greek language, which was so superior to the Latin language that--that, uh, there's 01:42:00just no comparison.

HALL: But--but wasn't the--

JOHNSON: --but--but, uh, the point I'm making is that, uh, black people were slaves, and--and--and--and--and some whites were slaves. And--and of all people, to raise any--any--any racism here in this country, when the Romans--now--now, the Romans were a drop down from the Greeks in culture, in my estimation. But when Caesar got over to England and looked over there and saw some of those little stringy-haired, blonde-haired, pale-faced little English children, he almost cried to see how dumb and stupid those children were. He said, "It--this is a disgrace that these children have to be so dumb and stupid." And he's talking about white people. And he said they're not fit to be slaves.

HALL: (laughs) Yeah.

JOHNSON: And now, these--these people over here making such a big ado about--about black and white, and, uh, uh, going into all this eugenics idea, 01:43:00you know. Uh, uh, putting it on the genes that the black people are inferior, because they can't help it, and here we are. And hell, Caesar was making fun of them, uh, I mean, their--their ancestors, uh, uh, back there in--in those days. Um--

HALL: --but, well, isn't the--the really insidious thing about American slavery that--that it was racial, and that in the American--it was based on race. That--that in the American consciousness, that--that--that--that prevails today, slavery means white owning black, and--and that is the legacy, it seems to me, that--the really bad, harsh thing--

JOHNSON: There were a few--there were a few freed black people who indulged in the capitalistic orientation (??) and owned, uh, some black slaves themselves.

HALL: Blacks owning blacks?

JOHNSON: Blacks owning blacks.

HALL: Hmm.

JOHNSON: There were a few--oh, a few exceptions, few exceptions. There were 01:44:00several down in New Orleans, uh, but there were only just--just, uh, some--some blacks and rather--rather--I won't say wealthy, but well-to-do blacks, had, uh, maybe as many as a hundred slaves.

HALL: But despite that, to most Americans--

JOHNSON: --yeah, that was the exception. That was the exception.

HALL: Right. To most Americans--

JOHNSON: --that was the exception--

HALL: --slavery was a racial thing. And as you pointed out, slavery has not been racial in the past. In history--in history, uh, the people--whites have been owned by whites--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --blacks by blacks--

JOHNSON: --yeah, yeah--

HALL: --uh, blacks and whites. So it's--but in this country--

JOHNSON: --yeah. The Muslims--the Muslims, uh, the--the Arabs, when they--when they got slaves, uh, they--they got whomever they captured. And they reduced them to slavery. And, uh, they'd--they'd have enough slave, um, uh, corrals, uh, whites and blacks, uh, right--mixed right on in there. Um, uh, the--the Romans, uh--the Romans, uh, didn't make much distinction. Whoever they captured, they 01:45:00picked out--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --whomever they needed to take back home as--as--as slaves. Uh, but when--when it comes to this--when it comes to this country, uh, it's--it's--it's based largely on--on race. Now, there's a big distinction between, uh, the--the races. Uh, if you were an indentured servant, you were white. If you--they s--they very early ma--drew the distinction. A slave is black. An indentured servant is white. They never--never conceived of a--of a slave--I mean, of a black person being an indentured servant. And they, uh, sort of, dignified, uh, or--or degraded. They degraded the term slave, so that no matter how pitiful the--the plight of a--of an indentured servant might get to be, at least he was 01:46:00saved the indignity of being called a slave. Now, many a--many a poor white--many an indentured servant or ne'er-do-well just had his term of indenture--usually it was about seven years--but in the hands of a ruthless--I hate to say, capitalist exploiter, but a ruthless, uh--you can't call them an owner, but whoever the person to whom the indentured person was, uh, bound--he might say, "Well, uh, now, you have been in this status for seven years, but you remember the first year, you didn't work much. You didn't--you were--you were lackadaisical, and--and you thought that I--you--I kept books on you. You didn't do much, so, uh, I've got to extend your indenture, uh, another year. And then, 01:47:00you remember, in your third year, you were sick, and you--and you didn't do much work, so I've got to extend it another year for that," and so forth and so on. Some of those poor devils were indentured, uh, for twenty-one years.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And then finally, uh, they were glad to get rid of them, just on--because they were no good then.

HALL: But the fact was that--that--that indentured servants were--were enslaved for a stated nu--

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: --and with--with no hope of emancipation.

JOHNSON: And with no--and with no--no hope, unless--unless the master got, uh, just--just so endeared to a particular servant who--who just ingratiated himself into the good graces of the--of the master, and he was, uh, what's called manumitted--

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: --at death. And, uh, I--I think of Thomas Jefferson. A lot of his 01:48:00slaves--I think--I think slavery, sort of, uh, bore on the old man's mind too much. He tried to be good, and he was, uh, encrusted with this whole slave society, slave-ocracy, uh, uh, mentality. And he was--he was caught, uh, up in it, and--and I think he went along with it and--and took off, uh, as many of the little, uh, uh, emoluments, uh, as--as he could get out of the slave system. I--I don't think he really enjoyed it. But--but the--it--I understand that toward the end of his life, he was--he really wanted to free his slaves, but he'd lived such a spendthrift--spendthrift, uh, life that he was practically in 01:49:00debt. Although he, uh, owned a lot of property, he--his liabilities were just about as great as his assets. And he wanted to free his slaves, but his children said, "No, no, no, no. You're not going to take away what would be our inheritance."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And then he just couldn't do it. So he was--even at death, he--he--he--I understand. I--I--I can't substantiate this, but it's my, uh--it's my thinking that he wanted to free many of his slaves, and his children were legally preventing it--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --because it would be robbing them--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --of their, uh, what they call--but--

HALL: --this--this is where the North could have helped a lot of Southern men of good will out by--by buying--

JOHNSON: --by buying--

HALL: --the slaves.

JOHNSON: And--and Abraham Lincoln proposed that.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Abraham-- Abraham Lincoln proposed that he--I think--I think Lincoln was the one--was--was, uh, the--the one in power who proposed it. Several people had proposed it, but, uh, in power. But Congress and--and everybody, uh, said, "Well, no, no, no. No, no, no."

HALL: What do you think of Abraham Lincoln--

JOHNSON: --uh, it's hard--

HALL: --in American history--

JOHNSON: --it's hard--it's hard for me to figure Abraham Lincoln out. Uh, one of my professors said that he was--he was the luckiest president to be so dumb. (laughs) He just looked like he just stumbled into the right things. Now, uh, when he once got into a position of higher power, I would say, instead of what my professor says, I would say he was fortunate that he measured up to the requirements of the position. He really came on strong when he got to be 01:51:00president. Uh, when he was down in, um, New Orleans, he's supposed to have said that, uh, he was so disgusted with slavery that he--he said, "If I ever get a chance, I--I--I'll really hit this thing a hard lick." But when he did get into power, he said, "I'm concerned with the Union." [clock chimes] "My main concern is the Union."

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: Lincoln's, uh--

JOHNSON: --Lincoln, um, when he got into higher power, he says, "It's the Union that I'm concerned with, and if I can save the Union, which is my main concern, by freeing the slaves, I will do it. If I can save the Union without freeing them, I will not free a single slave." That, sort of, uh, leaves me wondering, 01:52:00what was his concern about slavery? And then when I analyze the whole concept in the context of our American history, race relations, race relations based on color, and social stratification based on economics, when you take all the white people, there were the affluent whites, the middle class whites--generally speaking--and the poor whites. If you get way down at the bottom, in some of our 01:53:00literature, they use the word, in quotation marks, "P-O." Poor whites. The Piedmont white.

In the South, the well-to-do, tending toward rich, bought up all the good--all the excellent lands for plantations in the lowlands. The next strata of whites bought a little further up the hill, and the poorest bunch of whites got pushed way up the hill. That's where we get the hillbilly. Now, the poor whites could 01:54:00not afford to work as cheaply as slave labor. And so when the people down on the plantations, who were the richest bunch, brought in the slaves to work on the plantations, somewhere there became a--as much as it's--(laughs)--difficult to conceive of it, there became a--an affinity between the black slave and the rich white, and a cleavage between the black slave and the poor white, because the poor white would always have to have just a little more--as a free laborer--

HALL: --hmm--

JOHNSON: --he'd have to have just a little more in pay than would be the average of the care for a slave.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Therefore, bring in the slave at a cheap labor--cheap wage scale. That meant there was no work at all for the poor whites to do, and so they got poorer, and in my way of--the way I used to teach it, I used to say, "I--I--I--I--I--I really sympathize with the poor white, because they got poorer economically, and when they became poorer economically, they became poorer culturally, and when they got poorer economically and culturally, they became poorer morally, and add to that, they became poorer physically. Uh, they were a degenerate bunch of people." I have said that, and sometimes, uh, when I put that into some of my talks, lectures or whatever, I've had, uh, Negro audiences 01:56:00to just rebel like everything, and say, "Why, you're more sympathetic for the poor whites--(Hall laughs)--than you are for the poor slaves." I said, "but one thing's sure. The poor whites were just a degenerate bunch of people, and nobody cared a hoot about them. And the--and the--and the slave, although he was a slave, although he would--he would get beatings and whippings, and all that kind of stuff, although he had to work from sun to sun--sunup to sundown--although he--he had no choice, he could be sold, and he could be mistreated all----------(??), but one thing's sure. He had something to eat."

HALL: He--he had to be in reasonably good health, or he was no--of no value to his owner.

JOHNSON: If the master--if the master had too many scars on the guy, he couldn't sell him.

HALL: Hmm. He couldn't work. And he couldn't work, either. He--

JOHNSON: --if he wasn't well fed--he may not--he may not have been getting--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --lobster and quail, and all that kind of stuff, but he got enough wholesome food to go out in the field and--and work from sun to sun.

HALL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: That poor white couldn't--couldn't--couldn't stand that kind of work, because he hadn't had any breakfast. Uh, what kind of pigs did they have to eat? Uh, d--d--haven't you heard of the razorbacks? Those poor pigs up on top of the hill, they didn't have anything to eat. There--that's all they had, just--just--uh--now, with that sort of a concept, I come back to Lincoln. I wouldn't be at all surprised--because Lincoln came from poor whites.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Let's don't--let's don't for--let's don't forget the way--where--where he started from. Now, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Lincoln wasn't hoping that he could get rid of all of these people who were--who had won out in competition against the poor whites, get all these blacks shoved off somewhere. Send them back to Africa, if--if necessary. Send them somewhere. And then bring 01:58:00these poor whites down out of the mountains, and let them do, uh, common labor.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And let them get--earn--earn a living. I'm--I'm not so sure what Mr. Lincoln had in mind. When he was down in New Orleans, he said, "It's so--oh, this is so cruel. If I ever get a chance, I'll hit it a hard lick." But when he did get in--in ch--a--a chance, uh, uh, I'm thinking that maybe he wanted to do something for the poor white, and the only way he could do it was to just--just get all the blacks out, so that they'd stop competing. Because the rich man--and this is where he--I don't excuse him, either. The rich man, this--this capitalist, was saying, "I want the greatest amount of produce for the least expenditure in upkeep."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And--and the slave was the cheapest way to make the profit. So, well, 01:59:00the--that's what I think about Lincoln.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I--I--I think he, uh, he perhaps--perhaps was interested more in working out a--a free society. Now, I guess--I guess he would have said, "If the black man is paid the same amount that you pay the white man, we might let him stay." But under the circumstances, we'd already gotten the--gotten an idea that, uh, that there's something difference--something different between having a white face and a brown face. Uh, if you've got a brown or black face, you're, uh, you're inferior. And that had been written in, uh, to our--our general fiber, uh, uh, our mores. And general pattern. And--and it was a long time before you'd get Negroes to believe that they were not inferior just because they were Negroes.

HALL: And had been slaves.

JOHNSON: Um-hm.

HALL: I mean, by virtue of being a slave. You weren't nec--necessarily inferior. Otherwise, why would you be a slave? So--because Lincoln never believed in equality of the races, did he? He--he would never have--

JOHNSON: --that's--that's the reason why--why my, uh, I--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --I have--have--have--I've--I've tried to go through all of this. Uh, uh, I--I can't see. I can't figure him out. I don't know whether he--he never demonstrated that he did believe in the equality of races, but, uh, he didn't leave me enough to--for me to take the, uh, credit, uh--take the blame for accusing him of, uh, uh, not being prejudiced.

HALL: Because he--because he was a wartime president, and I think he--uh, in times of war, a president has to--he doesn't really have the leisure to, uh, to do things that he might otherwise be able to do, and he has to do things of expedient and, uh, uh, uh, uh--freeing the slaves in 1863 was certainly, uh, an 02:01:00expedient thing to do, wasn't it, and a diplomatic thing?

JOHNSON: Yeah. Uh, he--he--his--his point was--(Hall clears throat)--wh--uh, uh--he was very clear. He considered his main, uh, assignment was to save the Union.

HALL: Well, wasn't that number one? Shouldn't that have been number one in 1861?

JOHNSON: I don't know. I guess so. I'm not blaming him. I'm just saying that he--he forgot all about, uh, all these other--other things. He didn't let--he didn't let, uh, uh, any of these other things get in his way. That's the reason why I said he made--he--when he got into the--uh, in--into a high position, he rose with it. He--he grew in stature, and, uh, everything else.

HALL: Uh, uh, are you--are you--I--I mean, is--are you pleased that Lincoln should have sprung from--I mean, despite his motivations, whatever they were, 02:02:00the fact is that he did save the Union, and he did free the slaves. He--he--

JOHNSON: --some--some of them--

HALL: --in--in the rebelling states--

JOHNSON: --some of them--some of them--some of them--

HALL: --in the rebelling states.

JOHNSON: He didn't free them in Kentucky.

HALL: That--that's right.

JOHNSON: There were four states he didn't free them.

HALL: Yeah. But--but--but are you pleased that he sprang from the race of poor whites in Kentucky?

JOHNSON: I've got to--I've got to stick with my principles. I don't care where you come from. In fact, I--I--I'm--I'm trying my best to maintain my, uh, my principles based--my principles, which have helped me, uh, in--in, uh, going through a process of, uh, self-discipline. I'm trying my best not to give anybody any--any credits or demerits because of his color, or because of 02:03:00his--his previous status in his family, or his race, or religion. I--I--I--I therefore must not give Mr. Lincoln any credit at all because of his humble environment. Um, I think, uh, Mr. Rockefeller there--who was the one who was governor of New York?

HALL: Nelson.

JOHNSON: Nelson. I think he was a highly commendable (??) ----------(??)----------. I still have my fingers crossed on all the capitalists, but, uh, he just was a pretty good representative, I think. But he did some mighty nice things, very humanitarian things, that he would--he didn't have to do. He could have gone on, uh, uh, uh, on his pleasure trips around the 02:04:00world, rolling in the money that he had. But he did a lot of good things.

HALL: So you wouldn't give him--you wouldn't give Abraham Lincoln any more credit for becoming president than you would, say, um, FDR, even though Lincoln had a lot to--more to overcome. He had--his struggle up--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --was a lot more difficult than--

JOHNSON: --I--I--

HALL: --uh, Roosevelt's--

JOHNSON: --I don't give him any--any--any merits. I--I--he doesn't get any--any--any--any merit points because of where he came from, no.

HALL: You see, that's in--that--that--uh, um, Lyman, that sounds almost un-American. I mean, from--

JOHNSON: --I'm--I'm--well, I'm--

HALL: --from the--from the--

JOHNSON: --I'm--I--

HALL: --log cabin to the--

JOHNSON: --to--to a large--to a large extent--

HALL: --White House--

JOHNSON: --to a large extent, I am un-American. (Hall laughs) Why not? I--it's un-American to be a socialist.

HALL: Well, it's not--

JOHNSON: --it's un-American--

HALL: --well, it's not un-American--

JOHNSON: ------------(??)--

HALL: --to be a socialist, but it's un-American to say that you are.

JOHNSON: It's un-American to be a socialist.

HALL: Yeah?

JOHNSON: Yeah, well, you--

HALL: --to say it--

JOHNSON: --I--I listen to you ----------(??). (Hall laughs) It's un-American. 02:05:00It's, uh, uh--

HALL: --you--you don't admire a person any more for having had humble origins, even racist origins, and overcoming these origins--

JOHNSON: --no, I think it's good--

HALL: --they--

JOHNSON: --but I think it's just--I think the--I think Mr.--Mr.--what's Patty Hearst's father's name--Mr. Hearst. Is it Randolph?

HALL: Randolph Hearst, yeah.

JOHNSON: Yeah. I think Randolph, uh, has just as many debilitating, uh, uh, attributes because of his wealth as Lincoln had because of his poverty. And I'm not going to give either one of them any--any particular credit. All I want them to do is to just treat their fellow man right.

HALL: Hmm.

JOHNSON: And I don't care where you come from.

HALL: You're--you're consistent. I'll say that.

JOHNSON: I don't care where--(Hall laughs)--you come from. I don't care what your origin is. When--when I was at the University of Kentucky, that one summer that I went to school up there, I think I told you the other day. One fellow 02:06:00from Ohio, and one was from Mississippi, and each one was trying his best to--to--to show me that, uh, he--he--he--he--he was going to treat me, and other Negroes they came in contact with right. And one was making a big ado, and just--just wanting me to give him particular credit because he came from Mississippi. "Look, Lyman, I come from Mississippi." I said, "Hell, I don't care"--(Hall laughs)--"where in the hell you come from. It's how you treat your fellow man. That's all. And you coming from up--up North. I don't know--I don't know whether you had a chance to--to treat black people right or not." I said, "I just--I just want to measure you, not by your--by who your pappy was." And, uh--and just recently, I unloaded on--on--on--on some of the people on--uh, at the board of education, on this business of--of, uh, what they call forced 02:07:00busing. And the way they talk about Mr. Judge Gordon was, well, somewhat disrespectful, if not downright wrong. And, uh, I said, "Well, one thing's sure folks, that if you condone--if you want to condone all the inequities that your parents and grandparents thrust upon me and the rest of us black people, if you want to condone it, then I've got hell packed up sky high to unload on you. But if you don't condone it, if you want to do all right in your generation, I attach no stigma by the line of blood."

HALL: But what--what about FDR? Uh, now, I know we can't get into all of that, but, uh, uh, how--how would you rate him as an American president?

JOHNSON: Oh, one of the best we've ever had. One of the best.

HALL: For--for what? Why--why was he such a good president? I know he helped to get us out of the Depression.

JOHNSON: He--uh, I think, maybe, Eleanor, his wife--

HALL: --sure--

JOHNSON: --helped him to be quite humane. Humane in the best sense of the word, best--best, uh, uh, uh, general definition of humane. Um, he knew--although he came from a s--considerable wealth, he knew that the system was wrong. And he set about trying to do something about it. When ten, eleven million people were unemployed, when the rest were--when--when so much bankruptcy was going across 02:09:00the country, he knew something had to be done, and an economic change had to be wrought. And he proceeded to do as much of it as--as they'd let him get away with. As I said, to--to change from a purely capitalist society to a, uh, socialist society--I don't want to say communist--to a purely socialist society, in one, one decade, in this country, was almost, uh, too big a task. But he knew the old system had to be--if not scrapped, it had to be, sort of, somewhat, dismantled. And what had happened before 1929 could not be permitted any longer. 02:10:00So he--he had to have a lot of courage to fight the old guard, but, uh, in the eyes of the people who were starving, he ----------(??)----------.

HALL: Did--did his policies have any bene--benefits for the black man?

JOHNSON: Oh, yeah. Sure. Anything that improves the lot of people generally has got to be good for the black man. Anything that improves the lot generally. And he did as much as he could to mainstream black people.

HALL: Who--who are some of your--who are some of the great American presidents, in your estimation? You've mentioned several that you--that you--you've singled out, but--it--it's hard to rank presidents.

JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.

HALL: I realize that, but, uh--

JOHNSON: --well, uh, I--I would put at the top--I would put at the top, uh--I 02:11:00guess I would ----------(??)---------- George Washington. I won't say the top, but in--in the top five.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I--I pick George Washington.

HALL: Why--why Washington?

JOHNSON: Well, uh, he--he was a symbol around which, uh, we could get--get the thing going. He--he was a pretty good person around which we could, uh, we could all rally, and, uh, ---------(??). Um--

HALL: --okay. Who else?

JOHNSON: And, uh, uh, Franklin Roosevelt, and Abraham Lincoln. And I'm almost inclined to put, uh, Truman. I'd put him in the first five. I don't--I wouldn't make him, uh--I hate to put him number five--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --but, uh, I wouldn't put him number one. But, uh, I--I'd put Truman.

HALL: What do you like about--what did you like about Truman?

JOHNSON: Well, what I said, when he was in, uh, in--in--in the presidency, in my 02:12:00classes, I said, "Well, one thing's sure. You--he--he--he's not the caliber that we'd like to have in a president, but he's--he's muddling through pretty well." And he did. He--his--his, um, dogged determination to do what he thought was right. And if you didn't like it--if you--if you don't like what I'm doing, then he--he didn't object to--to using his invectives in public. And, uh, he'd tell you to go to hell, real quick, right in, uh--in one of his main speeches, uh, when he went to Detroit, uh, to speak at a labor rally one day, someone said, "Mr.--Mr. Truman, when you get up there, are--are you going to give them hell?" He says, "I don't know, but I'm going to do my damndest to do it." (Hall laughs) 02:13:00So, uh, and when someone said, "Mr. Truman, did you call--that fellow who said something about your daughter"--what was her name? Margaret.

HALL: Margaret, yeah.

JOHNSON: Yeah. "When you--when he made the--when that reporter made an ugly remark about her, her lack of singing ability, did you call him a son of a bitch?" He says, "I don't know." (Hall laughs) "I don't know whether I did. But if I didn't, he's two." (Hall laughs) Now, uh--

HALL: --so you like his--his plainspokenness.

JOHNSON: I just like his--he--he's just like Lincoln. When he got into power, I think, he used a--a great degree of courage. I think he got by on hoping that he'd do the right thing, but he certainly had the courage to do whatever he thought was right.

HALL: Um-hm. And, well, what about Jefferson? You didn't put--you didn't name Jefferson.

JOHNSON: Um, I would put Jefferson in the five.

HALL: So you've got--you put us at five, right there.

JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's five. We're running out. And Washington, Jefferson, uh--

HALL: --Lincoln--

JOHNSON: --Lincoln, Truman--

HALL: --Truman--

JOHNSON: --and Franklin D. Roosevelt--

HALL: --and Roosevelt.

JOHNSON: I can't put, uh--I can't put Jackson in there.

HALL: What about Wilson?

JOHNSON: I would like to put Wilson in, but, uh, but I can't. Wilson, when he was president of Princeton University, he--he is reported to have said that no more blacks will go to Princeton while he's there. I don't know whether he said that or not, but he just thought that it wasn't any place for--blacks ought to just go off somewhere and hide. Just--just renege from the American civilization. And the only time that Wilson really measured up to something that 02:15:00was noble--I've already commented on it--was when he was trying to get the League of Nations, the, uh--when he was trying to get the, um--what's--

HALL: --Points of Ascension--

JOHNSON: --how many points were there? Fourteen points or some kind of--

HALL: --four--fourteen points, I think it was--

JOHNSON: --uh, a certain number of points. They were all, uh--he just about gutted the, uh, the, uh, beatitudes in the back. And he--he really measured--he--he--he rose to higher heights at the end of the war. At the end of the war, he--he rose to higher heights. But, uh, I don't think--I--I don't know anything else.

HALL: He'd been in the top ten, anyway, wouldn't he? I would say.

JOHNSON: I don't know. I don't know.

HALL: Well, what about Jackson? What do you object to with Jack--about Jackson?

JOHNSON: Oh, Jackson was--

HALL: --pretty common president--

JOHNSON: Yeah, he, uh--he was a pretty good fellow, but, uh, he--he got by on his crudeness, and, uh, he--he was bold, brave, great warrior, great fighter, but, uh, uh, I don't know. I--I wouldn't--I wouldn't--I'm not for--too much for Jackson.

HALL: Do you give Jimmy Carter any credit for being from Sumter County, Georgia, and for having a--a background of racism? His father, uh, was--was obviously a racist. His brother is obviously a--

JOHNSON: --still a--(laughs)--

HALL: --still a racist. Do--do you give him any credit for, in a sense, having risen above that? In other words, what do you think of Jimmy Carter? (clears throat) Now, I know it's early, because he's still--he's so--we're--he's so 02:17:00close to us.

JOHNSON: Um, do you remember when they had the Democratic issues convention here?

HALL: Yes, yes.

JOHNSON: Did you know that I went down and spoke at that thing?

HALL: No, I didn't. I wasn't--uh, it seems to me that in the back of my mind, I remembered that. But what, uh--

JOHNSON: --I made a--I made a talk down there. (Hall clears throat) They had, uh, the--that was right in the midst of, uh, a lot of the busing agitation, anti-busing, and, uh, a bunch of people had come and taken over the parking lot right across the street from the Louisville Gardens. And, uh, they were howling, and chanting, and whooping, and making all sorts of ugly statements. And, uh, the city had sent the police down, and they were trying to protect the gardens, the Louisville Gardens, from, uh, any violence that people might do, especially 02:18:00to the, uh, city--I mean, to the, uh, visitors from out of town. So there was a line of police. And here were the--the big mob of people. And, uh, the police were standing there with their long, long sticks, and guns, and pistols, and everything. And they were just telling people, "Now, you stay on that side--you stay on that side of Walnut Street, and, uh, everything's, uh--we--we--we won't--won't disturb you. But don't come over here where the--where the, uh, convention is going on. If you do, you're going to get your heads cracked." Well, uh, they kept making so much noise over there, and it was so embarrassing to the city administration, that here we have all these visitors in town, and--and--and here--and look how--look how these white people are carrying on. They're--they're not blacks over there raising all that hell. 02:19:00They--they--they're white. And that was embarrassing to white people--white people in charge, to have all this--all this hoodlum element carry on. In order to get them to pipe down, the, uh, strategy committee--program committee, arranged to let one of their speakers come into the convention and explain to the convention delegates why they were protesting against busing. And they promised him five minutes. Now, when they came back and made the report to, uh, strategy committee that--the few negotiators who arranged that came back and made the report to the convention strategy people, they said, "Well, uh, in all fairness, you've got to have somebody to present the other side. You can't 02:20:00just--you can't in--uh, uh, why, it would be wrong to let one side have five." So they said, "Well, uh, okay. We have--we'll put one on for them and one for the other side of the--Sunday morning." Well, at, uh, ten o'clock, the phone rang here. And some of the people down there who were sympathetic to the other side of the anti-busing thing called me on the phone. I said, "Yes, what is it?" They said, "Uh, Lyman, uh, get up here in twenty minutes." I said, "Get up where?" (Hall laughs) They said, "Up to the--up--up to the convention." I said, "What convention?" They said, "Oh, don't you--you know what convention is here." I said, "Oh, yes, yes. I was up there last night." They said, "Well, get up here 02:21:00in twenty minutes." I said, "For what?" "You're to speak." And I said, "Well, I--fortunately, I have just put my clothes on. Uh, I'm just getting ready to--to go out to my own church for--for morning service." Now, at--at our church, the service begins at eleven o'clock.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: But they said, "Well, in twenty minutes, you--you be here." I said, "Well, I--I'm--I'm not a--a delegate. I'm not registered. I--I paid no dues." I said, "I've got no business in there." I said, "I was up there at the--at the session that was open to the public"--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --"outside of the convention, but this is in the convention's--" They said, "Lyman, be here in twenty minutes. And, uh, we will arrange everything." So I got up there about twenty-five minutes after the hour. Um, when I got to 02:22:00the door, three people ganged around me, and one put a big badge up here, and said, "Now, this will get you in. And, uh, we, who are already paid up, why, we'll lead you right on in. And you'll be the speaker." I said, "What do you--what do you want me to speak on?" (Hall laughs) And they said, "Well"--and then they told me about this--going up there to--to be the speaker. And they told me about all this that I've just told you about--

HALL: --yeah--

JOHNSON: --the--the arrangement. They'd have one from one side, and one from the other. So then they, uh, presented, uh, uh--sure enough, about ten minutes after I got there, which would have been--really, by that time, it was twenty minutes to eleven. They presented, uh, the speaker to represent all of those people who'd been, uh, demonstrating across the hall--or, across the street all of the--all Saturday afternoon. (Hall clears throat) And, uh, they didn't disperse 02:23:00until they were assured that they'd have a speaker Sunday morning to talk. Well, uh, they--they let him speak, and he--he did, for five minutes. And he was booed all the way through. Then I was to present the other side of it. And I started. And I talked. And I talked. And they cheered me all the way through my talk. And because they took up so much time cheering, that the chairman ruled that my time hadn't been used, and let me go another three minutes. And when I got through, the--the--

HALL: --but you hadn't prepared for this. You did it--

JOHNSON: --no, no--

HALL: --you did it extemporaneously--

JOHNSON: --no, no. Just--just--just--just--just like my p--uh, uh, I d--I just went into--when I got through, they gave me a standing ovation, and they kept 02:24:00cheering and cheering, and the reporters ganged around me. There were about eight different reporters from across the country. Came to me to--to just see--(Hall clears throat)--who--who--who are you, and what, uh, uh, what are your ideas? And after about three minutes of gabbling, I looked back, and I saw that people were still standing, cheering me. The man was saying, "We've got to go onto the program. Ladies and gentlemen, will you please take your seats now? Come on, come on." Bam, bam, bam. "Will you please take your seats?" And I said to the reporters, I said, "Look, they're not going to sit down until I leave here. Now, let's go on out. Let's go on back to the back of the place, and I'll--I'll talk with you, but come on, let's go back here."

HALL: These were the--these were the delegates--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --that were cheering, because--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --this--this was not the public--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --it was the delegates.

JOHNSON: No, the delegates.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Well, um, after I got through talking with the reporters, I came back, and they went on with the regular program, which was to let the, uh, candidates, 02:25:00those who had, at that time, announced as candidates for president, let them have, uh, say, about ten or twelve minutes each to present whatever ideas they wanted to, to these delegates. Well, they put Mondale on. They put so-and-so on, and Jackson on, and all. They got down, and finally put Jimmy Carter on. This is getting around to your question. They put Jimmy Carter on, and Jimmy had, I think, twelve minutes. All of them had twelve minutes. And Jimmy came down with his twelve minutes, right down the line of the stuff I had dished out there in my five or so many minutes. And I said then, "If anybody from Georgia, with all 02:26:00the--the tradition that evidently was fed to him in his youth--if he can come and aspire to be president of the United States, and say publicly the same things that I would be saying, then I'm going to give him all the support I can. I'm going to vote for him. I'm going to do all I can for this man. This man must be on the ball." Uh, I worked so hard for him from December to January, that in February, the first of February, he, Carter, had already gotten his little thing going then. He would--he thought he was on the way then. And he got a fellow down at Henderson. He--he sidetracked--sidestepped all of the professional 02:27:00long--long-range, uh, uh, Democratic leaders of--of the state, and picked up a young man down there named Stites [1]. You ever hear of him? Down in Henderson.

HALL: Well, only after--only after Carter picked him, yeah.

JOHNSON: Carter picked an unknown somebody.

HALL: It was Sheets, wasn't it? Sheets? [2]

JOHNSON: No, Stites. [3]

HALL: Stites? [4] Oh. Yeah, I mean, it was something like that.

JOHNSON: Um-hm. From Henderson. About the second or third of February, the phone rings. "Lyman?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "You don't know me." I said, uh, "Don't recognize your voice." He said, "This is long distance. I'm calling from Henderson. I am--" I, I don't know whether he said, "William Stites[5]," or, or something. Stipe? "Jimmy Carter has asked me to be the--his--his champaign c--uh, his--his campaign chairman for the state of Kentucky. And it was his 02:28:00request that you be on the steering committee of his campaign committee. And we'll--we plan to have, oh, as many as we can get on the committee, maybe as many as fifty, but he wanted you to be on the steering committee." (Hall coughs.) "Will you, sir?" (laughs) I said, "Well, I wonder, why would he, uh--" And he said, "I don't know why, but he said, 'Be sure to get Lyman Johnson on--on--on--on the steering committee.'" And, uh, until this time, I--I--I'm not sorry--I'm not sorry that I helped. I think he could have handled some things much better, but I know he could have done much worse on the things that I think he could have done much better. And overall, I think he's done as much as he could do. And so, oh, I guess I'm fairly well-pleased with Jimmy Carter.

HALL: What did you say--and this is the last question I'm going to ask you tonight. What did you say when you had those five minutes?

JOHNSON: I don't know. I don't know.

HALL: It was on--it was--

JOHNSON: --just--just--you--and you'd just--you'd just--just--just whatever. (Hall clears throat) Whatever--whatever the composite of what you think I am now, I--I--I--I try to hit the high spots and condense them into five minutes. I think the thing that, uh, really was the high--high point was, I said, "Ladies and gentlemen"--uh, I think I can remember this--"Ladies and gentlemen, you have heard all that noise out there in the streets all day yesterday. We have grown accustomed to their noise and their violence. This is the price the black 02:30:00community has to pay to try to eke out an existence in this land. But it is to our credit--to our benefit that all of the white people are not mean and malicious, and--whereas we, uh, constitute such a small minority of the total population, we could not win on our own, by ourselves. And we have a--an abiding faith that just about sixty percent of the white people in this country mean 02:31:00well, so far as we're concerned."

HALL: Hmm.

JOHNSON: "That makes a majority."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "We would wish that you not hide your, uh, uh, your--your--your good works and well wishes under a bushel. We hope that you don't renege. And--(pause)--we rely very staunchly on the rulings of the federal courts, and 02:32:00we carried the city of Louisville before the federal courts on this business of the inequality of education for blacks. And we carried the county before the court on the same charge. And both were found guilty. And we stand now asking for the benefits that the court said we're entitled to." That was the gist of--

HALL: --yeah, yeah, yeah--

JOHNSON: --what I said.

HALL: Uh, I think that was all I was going to ask you about that. Could--could I 02:33:00s--could we have another session late this week? Is that a possibility? Like on Friday?

[End of recording.]