Interview with Lyman T. Johnson, May 16, 1979

HALL: The following tape with Lyman Johnson was made on Wednesday the sixteenth of May, 1979 at, uh, Lyman Johnson's home on Muhammad Ali Boulevard in Louisville, Kentucky between the hours of eleven and two in the afternoon.

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: Anymore reaction to, um, your degree or--

JOHNSON: --oh, yeah, all--

HALL: --anything? Or your article?

JOHNSON: --the--there has been, uh, no, uh, no end to, uh, uh, acknowledgment that I have a degree since they've read the paper.

HALL: Yeah, right. (laughs)

JOHNSON: And--(laughter)--uh, of--

HALL: -----------(??)

JOHNSON: --but several people had read the, uh, introductory, uh--I mean, the earlier--the initial--

HALL: --right--

JOHNSON: --announcements. But, uh, everybody--everybody knows now. Those who--

HALL: --yeah--

JOHNSON: --who--who didn't read Sunday's paper have gone back--

HALL: --gone back--(laughs)--

JOHNSON: --on Monday, "Yeah!"

HALL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: "Look here! Let's see, gee."

HALL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: And one--and one called just before you came and I wondered if I could, uh--and get him to understand that I had, uh, had an appointment here at eleven o'clock and he just, uh--oh, he was an old fellow. Listen at me call somebody old! (Hall laughs) He could hardly get his voice out. He used to be--his--his father used to run a grocery back over here on Broadway--

HALL: --um-hmm--

JOHNSON: --many years ago. And he's a white fellow. And he had moved down to Twenty-Seventh and Slevin, way back over in that section. Portland area.

HALL: Um-hmm.

JOHNSON: And he called me to let me know how much he appreciated reading that letter.

HALL: Good.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HALL: Well, I hope we get some good letters, uh, in response to it, because--

JOHNSON: And, he--he just--he just thought it was a fine article, well done. And 00:02:00he appreciated, uh, what was said about me.

HALL: Did any of the school board members--had they read it, Monday -----------(??)

JOHNSON: Oh, yeah, yeah.

HALL: Will they have read it--

JOHNSON: Uh, four of them brought me copies.

HALL: Is that right?

JOHNSON: Um-hmm.

HALL: Yeah, great, yeah.

JOHNSON: Brought me--

HALL: That--that's a good thing about, uh, people. They--they will give you extra copies so that you can, you know--

JOHNSON: --I got one in the mail this morning. I got two in the mail yesterday.

HALL: Uh-huh. Oh, yeah, yes. That's--that's nice then. You haven't had an--any nasty response, have you?

JOHNSON: None. None.

HALL: I haven't either yet.

JOHNSON: I--I think you, uh, disarmed them, uh--

HALL: --I tried to--

JOHNSON: --first, uh, chairman of a department at a first-rate, uh, university carries its weight.

HALL: Um-hmm.

JOHNSON: And then, uh, then you just, uh, did it in such a professional way that, uh, even, as I say, even if you didn't have a subject, uh, all--all--all that you attached to it.

HALL: Um-hmm--

JOHNSON: --uh, seemed to add--add, uh, sufficient authenticity. That, uh, you just don't jump on something, uh, done as--as well as this was. You just don't jump on it loosely.

HALL: Um-hmm. I wish that I'd had more time. You know, were--we were working under pressure--

JOHNSON: --well--

HALL: --to get it out, but, uh--

JOHNSON: --well, I--

HALL: --it--it was--I--I was pleased with it -----------(??)

JOHNSON: My--my method of operation always, um, uh, from my freshman year has been that, uh, things done under pressure usually get just about as much--much real--real production--

[Pause]

JOHNSON: --idea, and have developed it over the years, that, uh--i-in, in my 00:04:00freshman class, that a theme that I have six weeks to do is likely--is likely to be done once, about four weeks ahead of time. Then I go over it, and refine it, and refine it, and again refine it, and then refine it, and then finally I turn the thing in. And, frankly, over the years I, I, I found those things that I just refined and refined and refined--I, I, I finally found that I'd gotten so much of the grist out of the thing that it was just gooey at the end.

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: And maybe about the second draft was about the best.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And the last draft was so refined that it didn't have any substance.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And--

HALL: Yeah, you're probably right.

JOHNSON: --and, and now, on the Board of Education, uh, that, that, that philosophy, that principle still sticks with me. And at the Board of Education, just Monday night of this weeks--this week, two, two days ago, just, just this week--

HALL: ----------(??).

JOHNSON: --um, a motion was put before the house--I mean, before the board, and, uh, two of the people spoke against the motion to approve a proposition that the Superintendent had recommended, and both of the persons said, "Well, uh, uh, I have problems with it. I don't understand it. I don't quite see through this. I, I think we need more time."

HALL: Right, um-hm.

JOHNSON: And I, uh, I sort of blew my top. I said, "Ladies and gentlemen, I 00:06:00t--I, I--this thing is getting, getting, getting on my nerves."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "You young people--" I hate to refer to people forty and fifty years of age as young, but they are young, by my standards. I said, "You young people act like you've got a thousand years to live, to refine--" and I went over this whole theory--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --all over again--

HALL: --um-hm.

JOHNSON: I didn't, uh, tell 'em where I picked it up and whatnot.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: But the point is, well, they want to go back and have the Superintendent, uh, work this over and bring it back to us at a later, later meeting. I said, "Do your thinkin' now!" I said, uh, uh, "What, what re--what, what refinement?" I asked 'em, I said--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --"What, what area do you want this thing refined?"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh--

HALL: --a-a-and they, they sounded as if they were going home and would spend a week to think about that particular proposition they were going to----------(??).

JOHNSON: That's right. That's right. And then I told 'em before, I told, uh, Dr. 00:07:00Gambor (??), who is a professor, oh, I admire his brilliance, but his--he, he drags his feet.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: He wants to go back and, and, and put it under the microscope, and look at it, and, and, and, and pick out all the flaws. And I told him one time, I said--[phone rings]--uh, "Tony, I don't care how much you study this thing. It's never gonna be perfect."

HALL: Yeah. And--

JOHNSON: --"And if you dro--" --[phone rings]-- "adopt something that isn't perfect, as soon as you find out what's wrong then change it."

HALL: Yeah, right.

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: D-do you think that, that thinking--(clears throat)--too much about a subject is, i-is a problem with the so-called intellectual? You know, sometimes intellectuals, or s-so-called intellectuals, want to think about a problem too much, and, and by the time they finish thinking with it--thinking about it, it's too late to do anything about it then. It's already chronic. Isn't that a problem? I mean, it seems to me that's what you're saying there.

JOHNSON: Yeah. I, I, I work on the theory.

HALL: You want to examine it from any possible angle.

JOHNSON: I work on that theory.

HALL: That's like Hamlet.

JOHNSON: I, I sometimes say I--uh, uh, perhaps I'm blessed with not having one of these analytical minds that, uh, will, will not let me act until I am absolutely sure that this is absolutely correct.

HALL: You can never be that sure.

JOHNSON: And I am absolutely sure that we will never be absolutely sure.

HALL: That's right. Um-hm.

JOHNSON: That's the only, only exception to, to, to my rule. I, I--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --I just think that, um, no matter how long you study it, you can certainly improve on whatever you, you produced, and automobile is a good illustration, 1896. And a fe--a, a fella came down the street in the 00:09:00first--f--his, his first automobile. He says, "Well, we can quit now. We, we have the final product."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "Can't improve on this." And every year, we--we've had some sort of modification.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I hope it's been improvement.

HALL: Some, some of it has. I guess some of it hasn't.

JOHNSON: Some. But usually, just like I was tellin' Gambor, usually when we find we've made a mistake, we don't go out and commit suicide; we just change--

HALL: --um-hm, um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and, and, and try something else.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh, certainly, um, the statement about, uh, an expert is almost true, that an expert, uh, or rather a specialist, is--in, in, in some line of, uh, learning, a specialist is one who, who is noted for knowing more and more about 00:10:00less and less. You've heard that expression.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Well, now, finally, you, you can get so--you can concentrate and narrow your, your area of thinking to such a small point that it doesn't have any practical, uh, value to civilization. And when you think and think and think and think, you, you make a fetish out of the idea of, of thinking, of, uh, researching, or refining. I'll--I'd rather use the word "refining." Um--and, as you say, uh, you spend too much time, time thinking, you never put any of your thoughts into actions. So, uh, I think if there's any one thing that--I would 00:11:00say the secret of my, uh, if you can call it successes along the way, if there's any, any particular recipe for my course of action over about just about forty years in this town, it has been that I have put quite a bit of confidence in people whom I think are smart, whom other people actually sort of suggest to me that they're brilliant. Uh, I, I count it a, a, a piece of strategy. It's not, uh, deceitful, I hope. I hope it's not deceitful, but I count it, uh, uh, uh, 00:12:00uh, a matter of procedure to cultivate the acquaintance and the friendship with brilliant people. And I usually, while I have their confidence, stimulate them to talk about how problems might be solved.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I may go from one brilliant person to another, five or six on a particular issue. Now, my, my, my little recipe is that I talk to five different brilliant people, whom I think are brilliant--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --whom other people have told me, "Yeah, oh, they're smart. They're smart as, uh--"

HALL: --um-hm.

JOHNSON: "They--they're really top people." Now, if I talk to any one of these 00:13:00about how they would solve a particular problem, if I understand what he says, and if I do what he doe--what he says--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --he would do, then at least if I--if I make a mistake in doing what this brilliant person told me to do, then at least they would say that a genius was at work, trying to do something, and something goofed.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: The idea was good.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Because I got it from a smart cat.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: After goin' to five people, if I do what any one of them tell me to do, at least I have the assurance that a brilliant person--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --would do it this way.

HALL: They also had--probably serve as checks and balances on each other, too.

JOHNSON: --and when I sit back and say, now, which one of these--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --is the one I would like to follow--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and po--uh, and, and, and begin to appropriate what he would do, re-buttressed--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --with what all these other fellas would say, then perhaps I've even got a better idea than the brilliant person who--

HALL: --that's right--

JOHNSON: --who, who, who told me.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And then I--now, I didn't have sense enough to think it up, but I got more courage than all of 'em put together, so therefore with the assurance that this is brilliant, with the courage I've got, I branch out there--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and then all these brilliant people come around and says, "Lyman, you're great." (laughter) And I say, "Yeah, I'm great because I'm usin' your brain."

HALL: This, this is ver--it's interesting. S-so you've been--you've used what you might call brain trusts--

JOHNSON: --that's right--

HALL: --right? Like Roosevelt.

JOHNSON: Sure, sure.

HALL: And you just--

JOHNSON: --sure--

HALL: --pick their brains for their ideas.

JOHNSON: That's right. I was at a, uh, uh, civil liberties meeting one night--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and, uh, there were two lawyers. We were at a, uh--one of the members' private homes. Uh, we, uh, were down in, uh, his, uh, recreation room. 00:15:00And I guess there were about twenty of us, uh, workin' out some strategy, and there were two lawyers, and they recommended that we do a certain thing, uh, uh, uh, handle--

HALL: Do you remember--do you remember what it was?

JOHNSON: --uh, a certain thing a certain way. Yeah, I know, but I wouldn't call their name--

HALL: --oh--

JOHNSON: --not, not in this context.

HALL: I mean, you don't r-remember the, the, uh, subject?

JOHNSON: Yeah, I remember the subject, yeah, but, uh, to mention the subject will, will--

HALL: --okay--

JOHNSON: --will identify every--almost everybody, because we got into a terrible wrangle, uh, uh, splitting hairs. Which is the best way to do this? Which is the best way to do this? And the--they called on the two lawyers for their legal advice on how to handle this particular case that we were going to put in court. And, uh--(clears throat)--someone, uh, made a motion that we, uh, accept the, the, the ideas presented by, uh, these two attorneys. They agreed to, uh, 00:16:00uh--and, and both of them, uh, presented, and very forcefully. And, uh, when they made the motion, seconded it, "Any discussion?" I said yes, and then I took the opposite side and tried my best to tear it to pieces. And, uh, several people chided me, said, "Lyman, you certainly do have a lot of guts." I said--(laughs)--"Well, that's what other people say."

HALL: Or gall, or something. (laughs)

JOHNSON: They said, "What?" I remember one of them saying, very, very pointedly, in a--in a fit of disgust and, and contempt for me--uh, I think there were about four blacks present, uh, and about six or seven whites, and these were--these were pretty good thinkers--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --all of 'em, blacks and whites, all of the--everybody there was a pretty smart and pretty alert person. So she, uh, she said, "Now, now don't 00:17:00you--don't you think you're something now. You are contesting the advice given by two attorneys. What gives you so much assurance that, uh, without having gone to law school that you know as much law as they do?" And I came back and said this: I said, "My friend, it isn't that I think I have the competence in the field of law. I admit that I have not been trained in the law." I said, "But I'm gonna tell you frankly: I have a lot of respect for those two attorneys," and I called 'em both by their first names. I said, "I have a lot of respect for them, and I--and I, I have a lot of aff--uh, uh, of, of, uh, friendship with them." I said, "But it just so happens that I was talking to two lawyers yesterday, of equal competence, in my estimation, and equal friendship, in my estimation, and 00:18:00they gave me the opposite idea from what they did. And now, when I choose between two competent lawyers on one side and two competent lawyers on the other side, then I become--I become the boss--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--of all four."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "Because it's my decision to be made."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "And I have been to two competent lawyers before I came to this meeting, and I agree with what the experts on the other side say, and that's the side I propose." They went ahead and adopted the proposal of the two lawyers present. Six weeks later, before we went into court, they were--they had gravitated all the way across to the other side, and, and the two lawyers present were the ones recommending that this other idea would be better. And they all said, "Lyman, we, we thought you were crazy six weeks ago."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Well, it's just--it's, it's, it's s--it's, it's been my process--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --all along, to, to check, checkmate--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --uh, what one person tells me. I don't think it's unethical after I leave you to--I don't call your name. I don't tell people. I don't--I don't--I don't, uh, uh, try to get you to evaluate the last person.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: No, that, that would be unethical.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: But I'll go to you, and I'll, I'll bring up the subject, and just let you talk, and let you tell me how you would do it.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now I'll tell you something else very much akin to that. Uh, my oldest sister, Mrs. Blue, was perhaps the s--m--mother of my nephew here--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --she was perhaps the smartest one in our family. Uh, she could just 00:20:00open a book and, and get the idea right straight then, and she'd be ready to put the book down and, and go on to something else, and the rest of us would be just pluggin' away, tryin' our best to, to find out what, uh, what in the hell is the author talkin' about. And, uh, she couldn't understand us. She was, uh, really too far out front of us to, to be really congenial to the rest of us. Uh, after I came here as a young man, she had already gotten established, married, uh, had children, and, and whatnot. I would go to her for advice. And one time I came to her. I said, uh, "Cornelia, how--uh, i-i-in this situation, how would you handle the problem?" And she clammed up on me. And I tried, uh, the next day. I came 00:21:00back and tried to, uh, open up the subject again. I said, "How, how would you handle it?" And she just, in her conceited sort of a fashion--I call it conceited; uh, maybe she--maybe she didn't think so, but it was to me--she said, "Lyman, I have been tellin' you how to do things before, and I been tellin' ya, tellin' ya, and tellin' ya, and you just go on and do something else, and I just decided I wasn't gonna tell ya anymore." And I just flew right back at her. I said, "Cornelia, I asked you how would you do it. I didn't ask you to tell me how to do any of these things." I said, "I didn't ask you for a command. I asked you for advice. And there's a difference between a command and advice. When you 00:22:00give me advice, I reserve the right to, to do as I damn please. Just because I ask you how you would do it, don't you tell me how you would do it and make it--turn it into a command." I use that, uh, that, that idea on all of my friends.

HALL: Would you have been a good politician, do you think?

JOHNSON: No, no, no. I--as I look back over it, I, I could never have made a good politician, just like I wouldn't make a good preacher.

HALL: Why?

JOHNSON: Because, um, I--I'm--I--I'm too, too conscientious about what's right and what's wrong. And I don't s--I don't mean to say that, that I do what's right all the time.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: But I have a conscience, and my conscience wouldn't let me be a politician.

HALL: You don't think politicians, uh, can, uh--you think--you think they're too, uh, restricted, what they can do?

JOHNSON: Yeah. Uh, have, have I--have I told you about Dr. Hayek, H-A-Y-E-K?

HALL: H-A-Y-E-K?

JOHNSON: Yes. I think--

HALL: --Hayek--

JOHNSON: --that's the way it's pronounced. Uh, uh, H-A-Y-E-K. Hayek. I forget his name. I, I got his book back in, in the back room; I can look it up if I had to. Um, Dr. Hayek, uh, was a, a Austrian who didn't get along very well with the people there, and he moved over to France, uh, pro--professor of, uh, political economy. And he--he's very conservative. That's one place I, I, I disagree with him. But he, he's a--he's a thinker. He's a thinker, and I, I like thinkers. I, I like to be in their presence, uh, even if, uh, if, if I just detest what they think. Uh, the brilliance--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --of the mind, uh, it, it all, all--it al--it always intrigues me when I get in the presence of brilliant people, and just let them--let them go on and 00:24:00try to expound. Maybe they can get some of their brilliance over to me and I'll catch on to some of it. But he's way out there. Incidentally, he, uh--goin' back, he, uh, didn't do too well in Austria because he's too far out of--away from the rest of the pack. Then he went over to France and he found he didn't get much comfort there, and they chided him there. He went to England. He got a professorship over in England, in political economy, and he didn't fit in there. And somehow he established contact with the University of Chicago, and Chicago said, uh, in its liberal sort of a fashion, they said, "Come on over here. We'll give you a chance. We don't--we don't know what, what in the hell you're going to teach, but come on over." He established himself at the University of Chicago and got along very well. Uh, I never went to his classes, but I read his books.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Dr. Hayek says a philosopher should con--consider himself a failure if 00:25:00he ever becomes elected to public office.

HALL: Hm.

JOHNSON: A philosopher should be on the mountaintop--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --pointing out to the people below something even higher than the mountaintop.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And y--and if he really believes in his ideas, he will not pervert his thinking, just to be acclaimed by the masses below him.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, if he ever puts himself up for a public office, and has to be voted on by the masses, then it becomes practically a popularity contest, and he 00:26:00perverts his high philosophy to the level of the thinking of the average person.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And therefore, the, the, the very fact that he was elected, he was--was selected by the average people shows that he had given them what is more on their thinking than on his.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: When a--when a philosopher gets to be the choice of the average people, he has then come down, he has perverted his philosophy, he has chosen--he has chosen that claim of the people who think on a eighth- or ninth- or tenth-grade level.

HALL: Um-hm. Okay, now, we have--we have the philosopher at the top of the mountain; we have the poli--the successful poli--elected politician, uh, so way below him; and then we have Lyman Johnson. Where is he?

JOHNSON: Lyman Johnson is the kind of person who campaigns like he did for the Board of Education when he said, "I have run for office before, I have been defeated, I got o--I told the people--I edu--I used the, the, the, the political forum to try to educate the people. I was defeated, and it didn't give--and I didn't give a damn about being defeated. I had a chance to tell you what was right, and many of the things I campaigned for, after being defeated, uh, were, were finally, uh, put into operation, not the things that the people who were elected got in on."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "Now, uh, here I am runnin' for the Board of Education. Uh, there are four other people running, and, uh, if you want me to continue the kind of 00:28:00person I've been all these years, vote for me. And if you don't want to vote for me just as I am, then I--it won't hurt my feelings at all if you vote for one of these other four." I said, "But bear this in mind"--and I, I, I--I've had a chance to, to use it on, on about three different occasions--I said, "Bear this in mind: you know what I stand for. You know what my principles are. And if when I get a chance to vote I will express my opinions, I will express the opinions of people whom I represent. Now, if there is a conflict, I will vote the way I 00:29:00think, not the way my people think. But if I feel very strongly that the people of my district disagree violently with what I s--what my position is, then I'll, I'll do--I'll follow the English system." I said, "I love the English system of, uh, uh, of government. And when the Prime Minister comes in and makes a recommendation, if he is voted down he says to the Queen, uh, 'Your Honor, as a loyal servant, I think I'm doing the very best thing to resign and let the other side come in. I will not pervert my idea--'"

HALL: --mm--

JOHNSON: "'--by trying to get Parliament to vote with me.'"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "'I will resign.' Classic illustrations would be, uh, Gladstone and Disraeli. For about thirty-five years they alternated. Neither one would pervert his idea."

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: "And when he couldn't get a, a, a majority, even, even when he lost by one vote, he would say--(laughs)--uh, 'Your Royal Highness, uh, I tender my resignation. I think the roof--the ceiling of the roof ought to be painted red, and the other gentleman thinks it should be painted blue.'"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "'And, uh, I, I lost, by one vote.'"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "'But I resign.'"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "I'll do the same thing I d--at, at, at the Board of Education."

HALL: Uh--

JOHNSON: --and I, I told the Courier Journal one of the--one of the votes I took, uh, somebody from the Courier Journal called me and said, uh, "Mr. Johnson, this is a courtesy vote." Or, no, "This is a courtesy call. I'm calling you to let you know that, uh, we don't like the vote you took on the Iroquois High School." And I said, "Well, I, I had a feeling that, uh, Iroquois needed, 00:31:00uh, a, a respectable facility out there, and they hadn't had it." "Yes, but, uh, um, you, you went, uh, contrary to reasoning on that, uh, sound, sound reasoning. And, uh, and you let us down. You let us down. And, you know, we endorsed you." Well, that sort of stood me up right straight. I said, "Let me tell you right straight." I said, "When I was up there asking you to endorse me, like all the rest of us, we all came up asking you." I said, "When I came up for the interview, I told you then if you en--if you endorse me, or if you did not, if you endorsed me you would not make me your slave. I was goin' to do my own thinking."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "I said I would listen to what you had to say, and then I was going to 00:32:00vote as I please." They said, "Well, we're gonna blast the hell--" I said, "Well, go ahead." I said, "I re--I, I live on, on, on, on blastings."

HALL: Um-hm. (laughs)

JOHNSON: And then for the Courier Journal finally to come out with that beautiful editorial on me, uh, that they'd put my picture in there--(laughter)--I, I, I feel better now that I told them.

HALL: Um-hm. If you try to please everybody, which is really what a politician tries to do, --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --he becomes a--he becomes a demagogue.

HALL: And, and, and he becomes nothing. Now, how can you be a leader?

JOHNSON: Can you imagine me--can you imagine me, uh, havin' a grand opportunity? I don't know when I will ever have--I don't know whether you and anybody else, uh, y-you just almost will never get an opportunity like this before. The Louisville Defender, the weekly paper, was having its annual big, uh, uh, exposition. I guess you've heard of those, uh, uh--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --fall expositions done in--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --October sometimes. It was being held up at the, uh, Louisville Gardens. And, uh, Frank Stanley, Sr.--no, it may have been his son. Well, anyhow, the, the Stanleys had, had, had called in all the bigshots for one particular evening. Uh, the governor was to be there. This was the officials night. They have a night for everything in the--

HALL: --this was several years ago.

JOHNSON: Yes. Uh, this was '75.

HALL: Seventy-five.

JOHNSON: Had, uh, the governor, the mayor, the county judge, uh, --------(??). And, uh, they also, uh--they were gonna have them up on, on the stage and for certain, uh--a little, uh, spiel, and, and I had been invited. Uh, I don't know 00:34:00for what reason, but, uh, I'd been invited to have a, a, uh, half-a-minute hi to the people. They would present each one. Each one would have a chance to say he-hello, and then sit down.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: They ask all who were supposed to be a platform guest to come over to one side, and the auditorium was--the, the, uh--yeah, the auditorium section was just full of people. And, uh, all this ceremony was to begin at nine o'clock sharp. All these dignitaries had been told nine o'clock.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: At, uh--from about a quarter to 9:00 until 9:00, they were rounding up all these people who were supposed to be on the platform and carried them all into that room o-on the side. At three--at 9:15 they were beginning to get 00:35:00anxious. Uh, "Why are you--why is this thing being held up fifteen minutes?" After it was all over, uh, we found out that, uh, a quarter to 9:00, uh, some, uh, calls had been made that, uh, the platform on which all these dignitaries would be, uh, seated had been, uh, uh--uh, bombs had been placed under, under this, uh, platform. They were gonna blow up all these people, and didn't know whether it was the antibusing people. It was right in the hype of the antibusing thing.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Didn't know whether antibusing people were n--were, were responsible for it, or, or, or whether--th-they didn't--they just didn't know. So they called in the security people from the City and the County, and the, uh, federal 00:36:00government, and they were checkin' that place out while they had all the dignitaries over here in this room. All of 'em. And we didn't know what they were doin', so they were afraid--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --that if they--if they told 'em, they--(laughs)--they, they wouldn't, wouldn't, wouldn't return.

HALL: They'd go home. (laughter)

JOHNSON: Yeah, they wouldn't return. So they had, uh--had this thing checked out like everything. And then, finally, it, it was pronounced safe about 9:25--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and then they rounded us all up and said, "All right, now we'll go on with the program," and then, then they told us what, what the thing was.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: After they got us up on the stage.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: They, they wouldn't tell us--

HALL: --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --then, because--(laughter)--they didn't know whether they'd get 'em up there, but, yeah, they, they said, uh, they--all, all three, the City, the County, and the--and the Federal had said everything was safe, go ahead.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: It was a prank. Um, what I'm saying is I don't know when anybody would ever have an opportunity like I did. I was right out there, and I was talkin' 00:37:00with Mayor Sloane, and up comes another one, and up comes another one, and I just keep on talkin', and I keep on talkin', and it never occurred to me until I, I, I saw the Courier Journal photographer snap, uh, one of his, uh, pictures, and, and the flash. There I was, pointing my finger at a governor, Carroll, mayor, Sloane, judge, Hollenbach, uh, Mazzoli--

HALL: --Congress--

JOHNSON: --Congress.

HALL: Mazzoli, um-hm.

JOHNSON: "Each one of you rascals," thi-this is my language--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --"Each one of you rascals has enough training, you, you can by no 00:38:00means by considered dumb and stupid. You had your chance to be a leader, but instead of that I don't know which one of you is the biggest demagogue in the bunch." And, and when I said "demagogue in the bunch"--(laughs)--up comes that flashbulb.

HALL: (laughs) And that's when your finger pointed.

JOHNSON: Yeah, and--uh, uh, "I, I, I don't know when you could, could label each one of ya are well trained"--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --"brilliant person, capable of being a great leader, rastling with each other to see who could be the biggest demagogue." Mayor--you just think, when, when would you get 'em all at one time?

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: A mayor and a Congressman.

HALL: But if you had been in either one of those positions, if you had been governor, mayor, county judge, Congressman yourself, you would not have been in the position to have pointed the finger at your fellow officials, would you?

JOHNSON: I don't know.

HALL: 'Cause you would have been a captive.

JOHNSON: I don't know. I don't know.

HALL: I don't think you would.

JOHNSON: John Sherman Cooper could've looked 'em all in the face and said, "Look." Uh, John Sherman Cooper could've done like I did when I was campaigning for the Board of Education: "Elect me if you want to."

HALL: He would never have been elected that first time.

JOHNSON: The first time, but once he was in, once he was in he gradually moved up, and, and toward the end--I, I, I am a Democrat, and I, I-I, I--I'll do as much as I can for the Democratic Party, as long as they put up somebody worthwhile--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and as long as they put up somebody who is--who, who can deliver what, uh, what, uh, I-I think is the best, um, platform, uh, regardless of party.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, when, uh, John Sherman Cooper was running for, I guess, the Senate--actually, I guess he was running for reelection, and they put up, uh, Keen Johnson to run against him. And I just couldn't see--I just couldn't see being--uh, voting a, a, a Democratic ticket that included Keen Johnson over John Sherman Cooper.

HALL: Uh, he'd been Governor, hadn't he?

JOHNSON: Yes.

HALL: Johnson?

JOHNSON: Yes. And it--really, really, I think Keen Johnson showed poor judgment to run against that man.

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: Yes, uh, I, I grant to get started--

HALL: --yeah--

JOHNSON: --I guess you've got to be kind of a, uh, uh--kind of a demagogue. 00:41:00Maybe that's the reason why I was never elected to any of these public offices.

HALL: Well, I was gonna say, it seems to me that--

JOHNSON: --maybe that's the reason I was never elected--

HALL: --in a democratic society you need the philosophers, and you have to have the politic--I mean, if you're gonna have a democratic society, in a sense the politicians have to kowtow to the, the majority, the, the will of the people, or that's--whatever you call that. But then don't you n--don't you need these people who are, in a sense, outside--

JOHNSON: --oh, yeah, sure--

HALL: --the system?

JOHNSON: You've got to have your philosophers. You've got to have Socrates. Socrates--

HALL: --uh, well--

JOHNSON: --Socrates would never have been elected to--

HALL: --but, but, but they don't act. They don't act. They think, right?

JOHNSON: Mainly.

HALL: They mainly think.

JOHNSON: Um-hm.

HALL: I mean, 'course thinking is an action, I realize.

JOHNSON: Um-hm, um-hm.

HALL: But then you've gotta have somebody who can use what they think, their ideas, wh-who are not restricted by elected office, or any kind of position--

JOHNSON: --well, that's, uh--

HALL: --who are free.

JOHNSON: Um-hm. I know, but that's, uh, that's where a person like, uh, like myself comes in.

HALL: That's what I'm saying. Aren't you--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --over there?

JOHNSON: Uh, I, uh, I would, uh, be flattering myself to think that I'm that 00:42:00profound thinker. Um, I've, I've indic--i-indicated what's, what's been my, uh, plan of action all, all my years. So I recognize that I'm not the thinker. But, uh, I--I'm, I'm blessed with the--a, a, a, a moral set of values that makes me try to do what's right. Now, I am also blessed with a--with an inclination to seek out the brilliant people. Then I'm blessed with a third factor: uh, that is, uh, a sort of an, an impetuousness for action.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I want to see a job accomplished. Sometimes I used to--used to, um, try out my philosophy here at home with my wife. She was a pretty good thinker, and I used to tell her, I said, "The difference between me and you is that when you attempt a job, you will get on it, and you like such a, uh, good job done that you look toward what is perfect." I said, "And I am the kind of person who wants action. I want accomplishments, regardless of whether it's perfect or not. I want accomplishments. So if you get back into the school concept, grading of 00:44:00papers and whatnot, I want to be sure if seventy is passing and one hundred is considered perfect on the grade scale, I want to get above seventy."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "I would like to get to a hundred. I know I'm not gonna get to a hundred. I know I'm not gonna be satisfied with seventy. I move up to seventy, from seventy to eighty, and from eighty to eighty-five. Once I get up to eighty-five on any project, I feel like it is more important to start another project and bring it from zero up to seventy, and struggle like everything to get it up to eighty-five--"

HALL: --mm--

JOHNSON: "--than to try to add fifteen percent more to the first project."

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: I said, "The trouble--the difference between me and you is I've got about four or five of these projects that I nursed all the way from zero up to eighty-five, and you are still working on the first project because you're not satisfied with eighty-five; you're trying to get on up to, to ninety. And once you get to ninety you're not satisfied with putting ninety into operation; you try to get to ninety-five. And once you get to ninety-five, you know you've got the ability to--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--to, to, to scheme out the thing, and, and then you reach on over, tryin' to get to be, uh, ninety-seven or ninety-eight. I imagine if you ever got the thing up to a ninety-eight, you would put it into operation, but since you can't get up, uh, uh, uh, up to eighty--ninety-eight, uh, you--you're still scufflin' and just tearing your brains to pieces, and racking yourself, your, your nerves, uh, trying to get a little better than ninety-five. And hell, I, I, 00:46:00I got about fifteen little projects up there. (laughter) I got fifteen buildings built up to the--to, to the performance of eighty-five percent, and, and, and that's the house you're livin' in."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "The--the--uh, it's an eighty-five percent house that I have here for you to keep doin'--keep it from, uh, raining on you--"

HALL: --raining--

JOHNSON: "--and keep you--and keep you warm and whatnot." I said, "I could still be out there planning how to get the perfect house and have you freeze."

HALL: Um-hm. Isn't that the reason, then, that, uh, th-th-though, that philosophers, thinkers don't make good action people?

JOHNSON: Well, yeah, uh--

HALL: --they're perfectionists. They tend to be perfectionists.

JOHNSON: That's right, that's right, that's right.

HALL: They, they want it all--

JOHNSON: --well, uh, you see, uh, I, I think I'm, I'm--I think I am the, uh, the bridge between, uh--the little Columbia, Tennessee paper, Columbia Herald, called me the catalyst. I guess that's what I am.

HALL: I was gonna ask you if you weren't a gadfly, too.

JOHNSON: Oh--

HALL: --a conscience, a gadfly kind of--

JOHNSON: --well, the, the, uh, the, the Courier, uh, sort of polished me off there by saying that, uh, I have a facility for helping the afflicted, comforting the afflicted. I like that.

HALL: --------(??).

JOHNSON: I don't know where they got that expression from, but it sounded pretty good to me, and I l--I like it. Uh, uh, uh, uh, comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable?

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HALL: But you couldn't do that, you see--that's what I'm saying--you could not have done that if you had been a successful, successful politician. You couldn't have.

JOHNSON: Oh, no, no, no!

HALL: You really couldn't have.

JOHNSON: No, no, no!

HALL: Even if you had been a John Sherman Cooper.

JOHNSON: --I wouldn't--I wouldn't get the votes.

HALL: What has John Sherman Cooper done? What, what, really, has he accomplished? Y-you, you seem to admire him. And I do, too. I voted for him, several times, or--

JOHNSON: --um--

HALL: --a couple times, when he was running----------(??) Kentucky. What has he done?

JOHNSON: I, uh--I, I think I'm, I'm a--I'm off guard now to, to, to, uh, go back to his, uh--hi-his--he's just about run his course now. Uh--

HALL: --no, I'm not attacking you--

JOHNSON: --and, and, and--

HALL: --I'm just wondering--

JOHNSON: --no, no, I, I, I, I--

HALL: --not--'cause I admire him--

JOHNSON: --I'm not, not up to date to, to pinpoint, uh, what, but on his in--i-if, if, if you could go back, you would find that on, uh, international relations he was so profound, and usually voted, uh--voted, uh--he, he voted in, uh--as a matter of conscience, what, what, uh, you would expect a, a, a person to do who wasn't afraid of, uh, the next election. He was so ash--he was so confident, that he could actually bring philosophy into the office of Senator.

HALL: Okay, that's, that's what'll do it.

JOHNSON: That was after he got established.

HALL: That's right. But, uh, but you see, that's the international level. People--

JOHNSON: --well, on, on--

HALL: --in Kentucky don't live--

JOHNSON: --on, on--

HALL: --in the--on the international level.

JOHNSON: Yeah, well, all, all along the way, he always voted for the betterment of civilization. Uh, uh, that was a general--that's a general, uh, concept that I had of him, uh, I, I admit. Now, when it comes down to specifics, uh, I'd have to go back and look over his record to find out.

HALL: But what about his civil rights record? W--------(??)

JOHNSON: Oh, excellent, excellent, excellent. He, um--a lesser person couldn't, couldn't have gotten away with his positions.

HALL: Even when he first started running for office?

JOHNSON: Oh, I don't know about that.

HALL: I bet you--uh, see, I'm thinking of--

JOHNSON: --no, no, he--he's like, uh--he's like, uh--

HALL: --he's like Fulbright.

JOHNSON: He's like Fulbright, yeah. He's like, uh--

HALL: --I find him--

JOHNSON: --who i--who is this fella from Alabama? He--

HALL: --Sparkman.

JOHNSON: Sparkman. Did I ever tell you about Sparkman?

HALL: No.

JOHNSON: When he--he ran for, for--

HALL: --Vice President.

JOHNSON: --Vice President, with, uh--

HALL: --Stevenson--

JOHNSON: --Stevenson. I took a terrible beating in this town, back in those 00:50:00days. That must have been about fifty, fifty-two.

HALL: Two, I believe it was. Yeah, I think it was.

JOHNSON: I took a terrible beating in this town because I came out in support of Stevenson and Sparkman. They used my name on their literature. And the black people said, "Lyman, how in the hell can you stand for, for John Sparkman?" Well, uh, I was on the, uh, steering committee for Stevenson and Sparkman, some volunteers for Stevenson and Sparkman, and the black people were givin' me hell, said, "Stevenson is excellent, but why, why do you--why wouldn't you just say--volunteer for Stevenson, and you--uh, and, and, and let it be known that you got to take Sparkman to get Stevenson?"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "And don't, don't just say you're just comin' out here for Stevenson and Sparkman."

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: So one day, down at the headquarters, uh, where the--they'd opened up 00:51:00some little place, uh, some little storefront that was vacant, uh, down near Third and, uh--Third and Jefferson, down near where the Chamber of Commerce building is now. Not the Chamber of Commerce, but it was somewhere along there. I think it was on Third Street.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh, they called me at Central, where I was a teacher, and asked if I'd come down and, uh, and meet with, uh, Mr. Sparkman, Senator Sparkman's in town. And I said, "Oh, I don't know whether I want to meet with him or not." "Oh, Lyman, come on down. Come on down and talk with him. He wants to talk to you." And I said, "Okay, I'll be there. I'll be there." So I had an appointment at 4:15, and I finished up a little schoolwork and got myself on down there. Four 00:52:00fifteen, we went into the back room. I think there were about six of us local people, and Mr. Sparkman.

HALL: Yeah, were, uh--were the other, other people, uh, were they white? Or were you--were you--were you the only black--

JOHNSON: --I was the only black.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And, and at that particular--it was--it was kind of a, you know, a headquarters. It was kinda open house--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --all day long, uh, and it had warmed up, uh, pretty well. Uh, several people had come in around, um, from about two o'clock until six. There was a ni--nice sprinkling of people now.

HALL: Was this in the fall of the year?

JOHNSON: Well, it--

HALL: --or ---------(??)--

JOHNSON: --campaigning, campaigning for president, uh--it was before the general election.

HALL: Must've been in September or October. Maybe October?

JOHNSON: It was, uh, I guess about middle of October.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh, so six of us went back in the back room, and left the other people 00:53:00out there in the front, uh, sippin', uh, whatever we were dishin' out, drinks of all sorts. And, uh--I looked around. Two of the people had excused themselves. They, they, they had to go back out to, to see some of ------------(??)--------. I looked around again. I said six of us went back there with him. Two, two disappeared. Two more disappeared. And that left Sparkman, me, and a--and one other person. And this one, this last one, eased by me--(laughter)--and made his apologies. He had to go. He had to go out there and, and see that the, the, the guests were being, uh, well attended to--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and whatnot, whatnot. And when he passed by me, he said, "He's your 00:54:00boy now. (laughter) Whip on him as much as you please. Beat on him. He's, he's, he's, he's your boy now. Work with him."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And just left me and Sparkman in there. Now, that was the whole setup. Uh, it, it, it, it, it kind of, uh, uh, revealed itself to me in that it was--that was the whole purpose.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: All six of us went back there together, but they, they, they, they, they wanted, wanted me to be satisfied, because I had said so much about how much I had--the, the, the black community was--

HALL: --so you think that was all contrived--

JOHNSON: --oh, yeah--

HALL: --so that you'd be left alone--

JOHNSON: --uh, well, it, it, it just--it just revealed to me right straight that this--that's what the situation was. And, and then I--and, and when this guy, uh, he said, "Look, he's your boy now. Work on him." And so I said, uh, after he left, "Well, uh, I tell ya, Mr., Mr. Senator--" he said, "Don't call me, uh, 00:55:00Mister. Don't call me Senator. Call me John." I said, "Well, uh--(laughter)--Senator--" he said, "No, just call me John." I said, "Well, hell, I'll call you John then, damn it." I said, "John,"--(clears throat)--I said, "You don't know how much it's costing me in the Negro community to have my name on this--" and I held up a piece of literature. I said, "It's costing me like hell in the--in the Negro community, every time we pass out one of these little papers to see that Lyman Johnson is supporting John Sparkman of Alabama, of all places, that hell of a place." (laughter) He said, uh, "Lyman, I'll do the best I can." I said, "Yeah, but you got such a hell of a reputation. You've 00:56:00got such a hell of a reputation, and I'm up here supporting you." I said, "I can't just tell the people that I'm s--uh, supporting you because I want, uh, Mr. Stevenson elected President." I said, "All of us want Stevenson, but they just said, 'Why in the hell would they have to take John Sparkman?'" And so I, I--they s--the man said beat on him, and I did. And after he took all that I had to say, then it, it just kind of dawned on me: now, who in the hell is Lyman Johnson to be talkin' like this to a Senator of the United States?

HALL: (laughs) A Senior Senator, at that!

JOHNSON: Yes, who is now considered the best man to vote for--to--I mean, to, to, to support and be the Vice President with the, the candidate of the Democratic Party. This is the best number two man in the country, and here I am talkin' to him like he was some s--uh, --------(??).

HALL: Or like a student in your class. (laughs)

JOHNSON: And then finally, it, it, it, it, it came, came his time to talk.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And I sat back and just let him, let him react to all this hell that I piled on him. And he said, "Lyman, my parents," I think he said, "worked in the coal mines."

HALL: It's possible.

JOHNSON: "My parents were poor, and they didn't have much better opportunities, if any, over many of the black people in Alabama."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: He said, "I come from poor people."

HALL: ----------(??).

JOHNSON: "And I've had a hard time getting through high school and college, and the university. I've had a hard time. And once I--with my education, and with a little pull, and a little pluck, I got on the political trail, and I worked up 00:58:00to be Senator." He says, "And I tell ya--(laughs)--like most Senators, I love being Senator. And it just so happens--it's not my fault, but it just so happens that black people in Alabama are prevented, in the most part, from voting. And the only people who can send me to the Senate are the people of Alabama who vote, and they are white, and most of them, most of them are responsible for the black people not having a chance to vote. Now, if I go down in Alabama and campaign, just the opposite of the--of the thinking of the people who will send 00:59:00me back to Washington, I won't go back to Washington." He said, "So as long as I'm in Alabama, I've got to do--as long as I want to be in, in the Senate, I've got to do what the--what the white people who vote want in Alabama." He said, "Lyman, with the background that I have, coming up from as, as rugged a s--uh, an early life as you've ever had--perhaps I've had it harder than you did coming up," he said, "what--"

HALL: --well, he did, he did.

JOHNSON: He's--well, when he got through describing it--

HALL: --um-hm, he did, I read about it--

JOHNSON: --uh, I, I, I, I agreed that he must have had a hard way--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --when he was a child--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --a young person coming up. He says, "I give you this assurance: if you get me out of Alabama, I'll be another Hugo--"

HALL: --Hugo Black--

JOHNSON: "--Black."

HALL: I see.

JOHNSON: "But if you leave me at the mercy of the voters in Alabama, I still want to be in the Senate."

HALL: That's right.

JOHNSON: And, and I understood what that meant--

HALL: --absolutely--

JOHNSON: --that he wasn't going to change.

HALL: Couldn't.

JOHNSON: "But if you," he says, "if you extricate me--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--I'll be another Hugo Black--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--and I will do what you want done."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "But you've got to get me out of Alabama--"

HALL: --be--because it's right, in other words. I mean, he was saying, in effect, you know, "I'll do what you want done because I kn--I know it's right."

JOHNSON: "But as long as you leave me--"

HALL: --yeah--

JOHNSON: "--in Alabama--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--I can't do you any good--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--if I'm defeated in Alabama."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "I can't do you any good."

HALL: That's right. You have no voice.

JOHNSON: "And I like to be in the Senate, and, uh, I've got to do what will get me back in the Senate. On a national election, if you extricate me, I'll be another Hugo Black."

HALL: Um-hm. --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --now, there are a lot of white people like that.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: That man up there at the University of Kentucky, Dr., Dr. Donovan. He wanted--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --he wanted to admit me the first day I came up there, but he couldn't.

HALL: He couldn't, mm.

JOHNSON: Had to be extricated.

HALL: Um-hm. It--wasn't that true of a lot of Southern politicians, who made their mark, and who, who acquired stature, despite the, uh, problems they had--

JOHNSON: --sure, sure--

HALL: --with the people back home--

JOHNSON: --sure, sure, sure--

HALL: --on the local level--

JOHNSON: --you've got--

HALL: --in race relations?--

JOHNSON: --I--

HALL: --you had Fulbright--

JOHNSON: --I had--I come--I come--

HALL: --Mr. Hill--

JOHNSON: --yeah--I come from the South--

HALL: --yes, sir--

JOHNSON: --and I've had contacts with people, and I know some of the people down South didn't approve of 'em.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: But, uh, as, a-as I said--

HALL: ----------(??)--

JOHNSON: --as I said the other day about, uh, about a marriage between a black and a white, uh, the blacks are going to be suspicious of you, and the whites 01:02:00are not going to accept the other. So you, uh, you are way out there in no man's land--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --once you decide to do what you want to do. You just can't, can't defy the, the, the mores and still expect to be a good fellow, uh, and, and, and be, be respected and be, be, uh, uh, have any society--any, any social contacts. You just c--you just can't have the, the good wishes of, of, uh, your neighbors if you're always going contrary to their thinking. Uh, yeah, there are a lot of--lot of people who would like to--like to do better, but, uh, they are hemmed in. They are victims of, uh, their associates.

HALL: Um-hm. Well, so, in a sense, what you're suggesting is that the federal government, especially the federal courts, have freed -------(??) of goodwill, like--

JOHNSON: --they've given 'em a chance.

HALL: Well--um-hm.

JOHNSON: Well, uh, I--I've used this illustration. I've used this illustration two, three times. I used it, uh, uh, in the--in, in the theoretical about Sparkman. If you extricate him, he--he'll be all right.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: In the practical, Hugo Black was given a lifetime job.

HALL: Um-hm. He was freed, in effect.

JOHNSON: No, no, uh, no way you could take the job away from him. You can't cut his pay.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And then he could--he could then look clearly and, and call the shots.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, if he didn't have the inclination, if he didn't have the desire to 01:04:00do what is right, he could do wrong.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: So then if you are this free to do as you please, then--a-and, and, and, and go on and do the right thing--

HALL: --mm--

JOHNSON: --you're marvelous. Uh, but talkin' is, uh--well, uh, turn the coin over and you see the other side of it.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh--you remember the Dred Scott decision?

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: It was a court. It was a federal court. It was Justice, uh, Taney, Chief Justice Taney, who handed down the decision. One other justice, I think, had been--had been just about assigned the job of writing up the Dred Scott decision, and Justice Taney, uh, sort of reached in, used his prerogative as, 01:05:00uh, Chief Justice, and said, "Look, I'm--uh, I'll write that case up." And he wrote it up, and he went over and beyond the case itself, to write in there that a black man had no rights. That same, same Supreme Court. And that held. That held from, uh, 1855 or '56. And then another in-famous, infamous decision by the same Court, not the same people, but the--by, by the Supreme Court, Plessy v. Ferguson. Both of those two things just completely, uh, hogtied the black man in this country. Dred Scott deca--uh, Dred Scott decision and Plessy v. Ferguson. 01:06:00And the only thing that, that uprooted both of those things was Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.

HALL: Um-hm. But ha--uh, hasn't the Supreme Court, though, responded, to some extent, to the, the spirit of the times?

JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.

HALL: It had--it-it's had--

JOHNSON: --yeah, yeah, yeah--

HALL: --to be a little bit responsive.

JOHNSON: Right, yeah. Yeah.

HALL: If, if, if, uh, Brown v. the Board of Education decision had been handed down in 1854, or, ni--uh, 1896 or whenever it was, it--

JOHNSON: --it would--it would have been another Plessy v. Ferg--Ferguson case.

HALL: --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --separate but equal.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Separate but equal. They might have--I expect any time before 1946, end of World War II, any time before World War II, there would have been more 01:07:00impetus for improving the condition of the separate schools and facilities for Negros.

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: There would never--I don't--I, I can't conceive of them going far enough to say separation has no purpose--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --in our system.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: They would have found justification for separation.

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: They would have said, uh, "Yes, we, we, we've said that you may separate, but we--"

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: --and women in the South of goodwill. But, as you have suggested, these people could not--could not, uh, express their conscience, at least not within a political--the political system. They would not have been elected. Um, but you had to have these voices, uh, who had been expressed in other ways, uh, mainly 01:08:00through, through writing. We've had liberal Southern editors. Uh, you've had, uh, writers like William Bradford Huie. Do, do you know Huie at all? William Bradford Huie.

JOHNSON: What paper? What paper?

HALL: Well, I don't--I, I think he--I don't think he--he doesn't write for ----------(??)--

JOHNSON: --he wasn't a, a newspaper editor.

HALL: Uh, I don't think he was an editor. But I think he--

JOHNSON: --no, no--

HALL: --uh, he lives in a little town in north Alabama called Hartselle. He wrote The Execution of Private Slovik, which is about the only soldier who was executed in World War II for desertion. Um, he wrote Three Lives for Mississippi, about the three, uh, Civil Rights, uh--

JOHNSON: --um-hm--

HALL: --uh, people who were killed in, I think Philadelphia, Mississippi.

JOHNSON: Yeah, I remember that.

HALL: Anyway, he, he is a--and he wrote the, uh, biography of James Earl Ray, uh, and he's done--

JOHNSON: --yeah, I don't know anything--I don't know anything of him.

HALL: But if you--but he's a--he's an example, though, I think, of the Southern liberal writer who, uh, has expressed himself, uh, expressed unpopular opinions, 01:09:00that--of course, they're not so unpopular now, but they had been, uh, you know, thirty, forty, fifty years ago they were. Um, in--and what kind of person was Sparkman personally? Did you--did you relate to him?

JOHNSON: Oh, I liked--did I what?

HALL: Did you relate to him?

JOHNSON: Yes, yes, I, uh--I, I haven't been known for getting so emotional that I break down and cry--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --but I think I, I did some symbolic crying when he was relating, uh, his, uh, his travails as he came up. As a matter of fact, uh, I knew much about him already--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and now for him to have to lay it out and, and, and, and, and tell it himself--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --um--I guess we were in there thirty minutes.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh, just the two of us.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And I gave him a good y--good shellacking, and, and, and, and he, uh, he, he took it all, and then came back, uh, with a very logical presentation of himself. And, uh, I was quite pleased to continue to campaign for him. And when my black friends would, would, would start ribbing me, I'd say, "You--do you know the man? Do you know him? Do you know anything about him? What do you know about him, except what, what is on the periphery, uh--"

HALL: --mm--

JOHNSON: "--uh, uh, of the man?" Uh, operatin'--then I used his expression--I said, "If, if you were representing the only people in, in, in Alabama"--I used this--hi-his, his o-own, own speech then--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --"how would you get to be Senator?"

HALL: That's right.

JOHNSON: I said, "Somebody's gonna be Senator from down there--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--and I'd rather have a good man elected who can't do anything."

HALL: In one area. I m--I mean, he couldn't do anything on one area, but the other areas, like international relations--

JOHNSON: --oh, in, in, in, in--

HALL: --he could--

JOHNSON: --in, in other things he was--he was excellent.

HALL: He was very progressive.

JOHNSON: And, and, uh--

HALL: --so was Mr. Hill, too.

JOHNSON: Yeah.

HALL: Mister--

JOHNSON: --and I told--I told --------(??). Hill--Burton Act.

HALL: That's right.

JOHNSON: See, I, I, I know--

HALL: --which, uh, Hill, Hill was, was an excellent Senator in every other--

JOHNSON: I said, "Now, if you get a good person who can't come out in the open on a certain thing, he can do so many good things, by voting for bills that help the country as a whole, and, by so doing, get a good bill to help the country as a whole, that good bill is going to help the black people--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--down there in Alabama."

HALL: Um-hm. In--exactly--

JOHNSON: --but if, uh, i-if he--if he votes a, a bad bill for the country as a whole, then the black people in Alabama will be worse off.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: So he'd better let--better have a, a good person who is potentially on guard and if he gets the chance he can do the right thing--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --than to have a bad person, a person of, uh, bad intentions. That's what I mean by "bad person": a person of, of, uh, sinister motives and whatnot.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Um, and then I always like to, uh, refer to Hugo Black as an illustration of, uh, a person who just needed to be extricated. I can remember, uh, when Hugo Black was, uh, being nominated, uh, being suggested as, uh, one who might be appointed to the Supreme Court, I went down to the Louisville chapter of the NAACP, went down to the meeting where a letter, a telegram had been sent by the national office: "Use all pressure possible to keep Mr. 01:13:00Franklin D. Roosevelt from appointing Hugo Black, that former Ku Klux Klan Southern Alabama--Southern, and therefore," uh, specifically, uh, Alabama, uh, "former Ku Kluxer from ever gettin' on the Supreme Court."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "Do all you can." Special telegram. And we had this meeting, uh, to, to see what, uh, what's on--what kind of pressure we could put on Mr.--on the President, and the, the Senators from the, uh--from Kentucky, to keep them from confirming, even if he did, uh, get the appointment, get the recommendation--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --from the President. And I stood up on the floor there and said, "Please don't, don't, don't, don't vote down Mr., Mr. Black. Please don't." I 01:14:00campaigned at this local meeting of the NAACP, and there, again, this is one of those cases where they said, uh, "Lyman, uh, here, the national office has all of the resources that, uh--have better resources than we have for checking up on the man, and they have gone through a thorough checkup system, and they recommend to all the chapters across the country to oppose the nomination of Hugo Black. Now, if you're gonna stand up here and, and, and fight for that damn sonofabitch from Alabama, former Ku Klux Klan man, then you go on back down South where you came from. We don't need you up here." I had to go through that in nineteen thirty--I think it was '38. And my argument was--I said, "Ladies and 01:15:00gentlemen, Hugo Black championed the wages and hours bill through Congress, and especially through the Senate, and the wages and hours bill helped black people down there in Alabama more than it did anybody else."

HALL: He was in--he was in the Senate, wasn't he--

JOHNSON: --yeah--

HALL: --before he was, uh, nominated?

JOHNSON: I said, "The, the wages hours bill," I said, "I can remember when they used to pay--when they were paying blacks ten cents an hour, and Hugo Black--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--championed this bill, and, and said, 'No matter what you work a man at, he's got to get around thirty cents an hour.'"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "'At least thirty cents an hour.'"

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I said, "And that--those two extra dimes added to those black people down there in Alabama did more good for them than he ever did wrong in the Ku 01:16:00Klux Klan."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I said, "And if he--he must have known that he was doing something for black people, but he couldn't use the word 'black.'"

HALL: Couldn't say it.

JOHNSON: He couldn't say it.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: He couldn't say that he was doing this in order for--to get these black people up. They said, "Lyman, he was a Ku Kluxer. We will have no part in it, then--and, and, and if you keep on with that kind of stuff, we don't want you in our--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--in our organization."

HALL: But do you--do you think ----------(??)--

JOHNSON: --and--pardon me, pardon me--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and I had a chance--oh, I had so many chances to rub that in on all those people who said that when he finally got the nomination, over the protest of all these chapters across the country, and he turned out to be perhaps, perhaps the, the, the, the closest to an ideal Supreme Court Justice--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --from the point of view of the NAACP, and really the NAACP got to the 01:17:00place they almost worshiped the man.

HALL: (laughs) Yeah.

JOHNSON: All right.

HALL: But do you think maybe it's because of your training in history, uh, you tend to take the long-range view, uh, where, where possible?

JOHNSON: I don't know whether--

HALL: --I mean--I mean--

JOHNSON: --I don't know whether it's because of my, my--I don't know whether I would have had this, had I been in any other field or not--

HALL: --but, but you in fact do have--------------(??)--

JOHNSON: --but it certainly didn't hurt me--

HALL: --perspective, yeah.

JOHNSON: It d--it d--it doesn't hurt me. It gives me a chance to--oh, it's, uh, it's--sometimes I, I just get a kick out of, um, talking with people, and, uh, I think sometimes--I hope I'm not, uh, condescending in this statement, but sometimes I think how to lighten up on the people I'm talking with, because I'm looking at it from long before Hammurabi and projecting far beyond Mr. Jimmy Carter.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And I--in, in, in, in just, just one sweep of my eyesight, I, I see the 01:18:00frailties of mankind over the years, and, uh, I can--I can see some rather brilliant people and some who have much book learning, but they look like, uh, their perspective in the field of history is so shallow, so, so short, and their concept, uh, their, their comprehension of what's gone on is so shallow that sometimes I, I start talking and I feel like I'm imposing on them--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --to assume--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --I-I'm telling--I'm making some allusion and they don't even know what I'm talking about.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: When I talk about Alexander the Great, who, who was--who wasn't a Greek, but when he came up out of Phil--uh, uh, out of, uh--

HALL: --Macedonia?

JOHNSON: Macedonia. And, and, and when he found out what all this Greek culture was about, that when he went across into Asia Minor and all back out there where I-I-Iran now is, Persia, all around through there, down in Egypt and everyplace, he built a library in every place, and stocked it with the philosophy of the Greeks.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And, and sometimes I get off in--in--into one of those things, and some I, I can--I can detect real quick when, when the people I'm talkin' with, uh, don't have enough, uh, history. They're--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --they know chemistry, they know physics, and they know, uh, mechanics, and they know architecture--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --uh, present-day things, but, but I've lost them when I talk--start talkin' about Alexander had a town--

HALL: --they're too close. They're too close to, um, the present--

JOHNSON: --the present--

HALL: --that they, uh, they can only see--

JOHNSON: --specializing--

HALL: --that's right--

JOHNSON: --and they see that one little spot--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --that they see--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and, and, and they see so much in this one little thing, and they get smaller and smaller and smaller--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and, and, and the smaller they get, the more they rob, the more they imprison themselves--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --in shortsightedness.

HALL: Um-hm. I think you're right--

JOHNSON: --and, uh, then, that's when I, I, I begin to, to wonder if, um, if I have lost them, and they just think I'm just, uh, pipe dreaming, and, uh, talking, uh, uh, just, just, uh, endlessly talking just to be talking, and they're just being polite, just listen to, to me just fantasize way back out in space. Hell, I'm not fantasizing! There, there must have been, there must have been an Alexander the Great.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: There must have been a Caesar. There must have been. There must have 01:21:00been a Pompeii.

HALL: But these people--you can learn from these people, though they make a lot of mistakes, but, uh, is-isn't that what the progress--what has made human progress possible?

JOHNSON: That's all. That's all. My--another one of those little things I, I keep chiding my fellow board members with. "Let's do the best thinking we can. Let's do the best thinking we can. And, in the light of what we now think, let's act right now while we're thinking about it. Let's act right, right this minute." "Listen, but Lyman, you'll make a mistake." I said, "Just as soon as you make--just as soon as you act, then look back and s--and, and, and evaluate our action, and make an amendment, tomorrow--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--tomorrow, in the light of to--tomorrow's inspection. Let's rip out 01:22:00the imperfection."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I said, "Do you get mad when you buy a car, a brand new car, and you find that the carburetor won't work? Do you take a sledgehammer and crack up the whole great big thing, just because the carburetor won't work--"

HALL: --or do you take it back?--

JOHNSON: "--or do you just take it back to the shop and say, 'Man, put--uh, fix this carburetor right now?'"

HALL: Or do you refuse to buy a new car because you're afraid the carburetor won't work? That's even worse.

JOHNSON: That's, that's right.

HALL: That's what some people --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --well, that's right. Two me--the, the two members on our Board of Education, they're as smart as they can be, and, and, and I think--I think they--I think they've robbed society of their brilliance by not having courage enough after they--after they have a dream of a--of a machine that will run, they're afraid--they're afraid to actually bring it out of the showroom, out of 01:23:00their brain.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: They are afraid to bring it out for fear it might run off the highway.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Well, hell! If runs of the highway, at least until, until--

HALL: --call a tow truck--(laughs)--

JOHNSON: --until it runs off the highway, we're a little further down--

HALL: --that's right--

JOHNSON: --down the road than we would've been if we hadn't gotten some kind of a car to drive.

HALL: That's right. That's right.

JOHNSON: I know--I went up to Lexington this past weekend, twice. Went up there Saturday when they were, uh, extending some honors to me. I went back Sunday morning, left my house full of, uh, friends, mainly, uh, relatives, and I got up early, drove back up there to speak to a little Baptist church, a little Negro Baptist church. I had agreed to come and speak to them, and I just didn't un--I just didn't feel like it was right to go up and have all the fanfare of, uh, 01:24:00receiving an honorary degree, and having people taking all sorts of pictures, and saying all sorts of nice things about me, various and sundry news media blasting my name across the state as one of those to receive this, uh, honorary degree, and then the next day not come and talk to a handful of black people who think I'm, I'm just marvelous. Uh, if I had disappointed that little group of people, they would've said--(laughs)--"See, it went to his head."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: So--

HALL: --"he's too big for us now."

JOHNSON: So I went back up there the very next day. Now, I, I, I have a feeling, I have a feeling that what, what is good ought to be put into operation, 01:25:00assuming that it is not perfection. It can't be. Just understand it can't be perfect. Remove the imperfections, and move on down the road. Just don't stand still. Don't, don't--don't be afraid to take a leap into the dark.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: The future--the future is the dark.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And, and, and you, you, you just can't tell what'll happen the next ten minutes from right now.

HALL: What did you talk on Sunday at, uh, this church? You remember?

JOHNSON: Well, I--I'll tell you frankly: I usually make up my speeches sometimes when I'm out trimming the hedge. I have such a--well, I've developed this, uh, over, over the years. Sometimes I, I get into painting, or some little piece of carpentry 01:26:00work, repair work around the house here, or tinkering with my car. When I have what I'm going to do routinized so as not to have to just think about the very next thing, in this particular thing I'm working on--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --then I'm thinking about that, uh, talk I'm going to make next week, or the next week, or the next week.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And then I have just a backlog of, uh, material on which I might talk.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And when I get to the place, I look out over my audience and find which one of these various things, uh, I want to unload on them with.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh--

HALL: --so you're like a preacher who, who, who, who, who modifies his text to--(laughs)--

JOHNSON: --oh, I'm, I'm a master at that. I'm a master at that. Uh, how many times have I--have I sat up and refined a real good speech, and written it out, 01:27:00and gotten up there in front of an audience and said--I, I remember on about three or four special occasions, but I've been in more than that, but I remember four special occasions. "Ladies and gentlemen, I spent so many hours preparing this speech, and I have it written out here. If anybody wants to see what I was going to say, here it is." I'll either fold it up and put it back in my pocket, or I'll put it out there on the desk. I say, "If anybody wants to know what I prepared--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--my prepared speech is right here."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "And I'll refer to it no more." Then I get up there and talk. And I think on all four of those occasions, I'm quite sure the people liked what I said better than I think they would have liked if I had read them this dissertation that I had prepared.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, uh, in this case, uh, I was supposed to talk to a group that would be put--I was told they would have senior citizens, uh, invited from the neighborhood, and I was supposed to talk to them at the regular church service at eleven o'clock on Sunday morning, senior--honoring senior citizens. Address your remarks for about fifteen to eighteen minutes to, uh, the senior citizens. And I got up there, I looked around, I sized up the thing. They went through a lot of other programs, and--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --part of the program, singing, whatnot, whatnot, and then finally I, I was called on. And sure enough, these people had read, and they understood 01:29:00the--and they, they had--they had read, uh, your, your article about me, and they read several other things in the--in the paper ahead of time, and they knew that over on the other side of town they were doin' all these nice things to this, uh, uh, black, uh, man who, who had done so much for the benefit of, uh, all people, and especially black people. And then I was introd--I mean, I was presented. So, uh, I guess the, the main thing that I said was, uh, "You older people. Now, remember, ladies and gentlemen, you older people, remember: I qualify. I'm one of you. I, I have--I, I, like you, have paid my dues, and we have grown through the years--we have survived somehow, and we've picked up--we 01:30:00have picked up--we started out--some of us had some pretty good sense when we started out, and some of us got a little education as we came along, but bear in mind all these years that we've been out there, we've been gaining experience. And these," then I looked around, and I said, "and these young people out here need the benefit of, uh, your advice, and, uh, your, uh, suggestions. And, and don't, don't think now that you have run your course, and you're no longer serviceable. You have a wealth of information, and these young people need it. Now, maybe, maybe they will want to do as they see fit, but at least you make them, uh--give them an opportunity to share your experiences. And in the light 01:31:00of your experiences, let them choose how they, too, may hope to live to be gracious, dignified, older people, to advise, and there will be another generation coming on." And it just did me a lot of good, I'm tellin' ya. It did me a lot of good to find out that the little kids up there, three and four and five years of age, were paying as much attention to what I had to say as those old folks.

HALL: Oh, it was a mixed group, then. I thought you said--

JOHNSON: --I had--

HALL: --just the older people.

JOHNSON: The older people were seated off here--

HALL: --oh, they were ------(??)--

JOHNSON: --to the side, and I, uh, I, I, I, I so mixed up my, my, my, my, my little talk--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --that, uh, uh, the kids back there in--seated over in this section, uh, teenagers--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --they were looking at me, right straight in the eye.

HALL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: I knew I had their attention.

HALL: Yeah.

JOHNSON: And I went--I--and, and I, I did all I could to--I, I want--I don't--I, 01:32:00I hope that you don't call me entertaining, just for entertainment's sake.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh, but, uh, it didn't, didn't hurt my feelings when I recognized that I had the attention of two-year-old, five-year-old, ten, the s--the teenagers, the young adults, the mothers, mothers and fathers of those, uh, on this side--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and the sons and daughters of those over here. Uh, I had 'em all. I had 'em all. And, and, and when the fifteen--I, I think I talked seventeen minutes--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and when I was through, it looked like they would've listened to me for another hour.

HALL: I bet they would've. Uh, they must have been very pleased to know--I mean, they, they knew who you were, of course, before--

JOHNSON: --well, the, the intro--

HALL: ------(??)--

JOHNSON: --if they didn't know, that introduction fixed me up.

HALL: (laughs) Well, but, but, but, but, but--

JOHNSON: --but they knew--

HALL: --the juxtaposition of the fact that you just received this degree from UK 01:33:00the day before, in this same town--

JOHNSON: ----------(??)--

HALL: --I mean, and, and the people in that church must look up to University of Kentucky. I mean, after all--

JOHNSON: --oh, yeah--

HALL: --these are the smart people in town--

JOHNSON: --you've got--you've got to recognize it's--

HALL: --sure--

JOHNSON: --it's something--

HALL: --and here they've--

JOHNSON: --it's something good over there--

HALL: --given you this degree--

JOHNSON: --yeah, they, they thought it was--

HALL: --and, uh--

JOHNSON: --they, they, they, they, they kinda enjoyed my having received it.

HALL: Being a celebrity. It was the--you--

JOHNSON: --really enjoyed it--

HALL: --were a bigger celebrity--you were then a bigger celebrity--

JOHNSON: --I--

HALL: --than you were when they invited you--

JOHNSON: --yeah, I--

HALL: --in a sense--

JOHNSON: --I--and, and, and, and the thing that, uh, pleases me is they can't say that I, I got all carried away by--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --all these honors from these white folks--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and told these damn niggers go to hell.

HALL: Um-hm. That's right. Because you didn't have to--you didn't need them. You didn't need these--

JOHNSON: --and one--

HALL: --little church people.

JOHNSON: And, and one other thing that did me so much good was one, one fella, eighty-three years of age, he said, "Mr. Johnson, I have been following you practically all of your life."

HALL: Is that right?

JOHNSON: "And you are as genuine as ever I have seen a person to be." Said, "And you have been so, so constantly fighting for our benefit. We're just glad--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--to have you, and I'm glad--I'm just so glad that I can testify I have known you for forty-five years."

HALL: Uh, and you, you have--you do know him personally, then.

JOHNSON: No, no, no, no!

HALL: But he knew you--

JOHNSON: --yeah, yeah, he knew me--

HALL: --through your work.

JOHNSON: He knew me.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I got people all over--all over the state of Kentucky--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --these, these black people, these old people. Uh, they said that, uh, they, uh, they just admire the way things were done here in Louisville--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --that had effect out there.

HALL: Sure. Yeah.

JOHNSON: Everything that's done here--if we can win it here, the threat is we--we just go out and make, uh, make some, some talk out in some town. We can shake up a town out there, because if we go to a federal court, and the federal 01:35:00court reaches out there to, to any place--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --in the United States, and therefore to any little corner of Kentucky--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --so if I go down to Paducah and make a talk down there and say, "Well, now, ladies and gentlemen, uh, uh, the parks, uh, the parks are open--uh, should be open to you, and if you--if you don't, uh--if you--if you don't have the, um, free access to the use of these parks, why, uh, all you've got to do is, like we did--" boy, they, they get straight--the, the thing gets straightened up out there--

HALL: --um-hm, um-hm--

JOHNSON: --in Paducah, over in, uh, Ashland, uh, anywhere. All we've got to do is just go and to show that, uh, this is possible, because--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --we just worked it out down in Louisville. So many cases, uh, they will send us money to help us fight the battle here in Louisville, because they can't get started in their little towns--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --uh, down in Elizabethtown.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: You, you, you, you, you start NA--N--NAACP down there ten, fifteen years ago.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: You start an NAACP down in Elizabethtown and, and, and, uh, the dishwasher down at the--at, at, at the white restaurant gets fired.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: But up here in Louisville, uh, it's, it's kinda--there's so many of us up here--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --it's kinda hard to fire us all.

HALL: And, and it has been--you're saying it has been maybe not easier but, uh, uh--well, to some extent easier to do things for black people in Louisville than, say, in other parts of the state--

JOHNSON: --well, I just--

HALL: --where, where the numbers are smaller.

JOHNSON: I--yeah, what--uh, back in the fifties--no, uh, uh, uh, back in the forties--go back to the forties--I received from Lebanon, Lebanon, Kentucky, I received in the mail five--no, eight, eight one-dollar--in those days the minimum was one-dollar membership in the NAACP. I was conducting a campaign back 01:37:00in the forties. Membership campaign. Um, I received eight membership envelopes from Lebanon, Kentucky, one dollar each. Now, that didn't amount to much, but the sentiment behind it--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --was so good, the lady said, "Mr. Johnson--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--don't send any receipts. Don't answer this letter."

HALL: With the return address on it. (laughs)

JOHNSON: "Don't, don't send anything down here, because if you send any, any sort of a letter, anything, it might be intercepted, and all of us will lose our jobs. This is the best we can do. But we have confidence in you to see that you 01:38:00will turn our money in and use it for the best advantage. Whatever you accomplish in Louisville, we will feel the effects of it down here."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "But be sure now, don't try to acknowledge receipt of this--"

HALL: --mm--

JOHNSON: "--by sending any mail to us."

HALL: Were there other chapters around the state, uh, N--NAACP chapters around Kentucky?

JOHNSON: When?

HALL: Um, well, in, in the f--

JOHNSON: --we've got--we've got about twenty-five now--

HALL: --forties and fifties.

JOHNSON: Uh, they'd spring up. Pressure would be put on 'em. You'd go underground--

HALL: --so, so--

JOHNSON: --go out--

HALL: --so there were attempts to start them in, uh--

JOHNSON: --oh, yes, yeah. We, we--we've, we've tried to have chapters, uh, since nineteen forty--1938.

HALL: And, and--

JOHNSON: --I know that. I know of that.

HALL: In cities like L-Lexington and?--

JOHNSON: --well, Lexington--

HALL: --Lexington--

JOHNSON: --and Paducah, and, uh--Lexington and Paducah. And Louisville.

HALL: Bowling Green?

JOHNSON: --Owensboro tried, but Owensboro--they--the people didn't, didn't, didn't get bold enough. Uh, I guess the casualty rate was too great, you know, economic--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --economic reprisals.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh, that's what you got to--got to watch. If you don't have--(coughs)--pardon me--pardon me--if you don't have any, any kind of a, a subsistence, if you don't have a, a real economic subsistence security, uh, you--you're in a bad business, tampering with the NAACP.

HALL: Uh, when, when was the Simpson--when was the Louisville chapter organized?

JOHNSON: I guess about 1914.

HALL: Nineteen fourteen? So it was--[phone rings]--it was thriving when you came to Louisville. I mean, you had systems--

JOHNSON: --oh, yeah, yeah, we, we had--we had a powerful organization.--[phone rings]--

[Pause in recording.]

HALL: --shoot.

JOHNSON: Go ahead.

HALL: Uh, well, when--so, so the, the Louisville chapter was founded about 1914.

JOHNSON: The City of Louisville passed an ordinance, segregation, residential segregation ordinance. Do you know about that case? Nineteen fourteen, city ordinance was passed saying that any block, city block, that has a majority of run--one race is one in which no additional people from the other race may move into it. Specifically, after that ordinance, if more people were white on a block, no more Negros could come in. They claimed that they were fair by saying 01:41:00it applies both ways.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Which meant that from about Eighteenth Street, here in Louisville, Eighteenth Street west, no more Negros could come down this way, because in every block they were practically all whites. Uh, I think there was one church that had been--that was bought by Negros that opened out on one street. It was on a corner. It opened out on one street, and in that block most of the people were white. So, uh, in the other block, on the other side of the street, at the corner, most of the people were black. But that was the side door, so they could 01:42:00go in the side door--(laughter)--from the Negro side of the block.

HALL: You mean they weren't supposed to use the front door because--

JOHNSON: --no, because--

HALL: --the front door was on a white--a white street?--

JOHNSON: --because the majority of the people were white, so therefore if you faced the white side, only white people could go in the church. If you faced the, the other street, which was a side door to the church--

HALL: --um-hm.

JOHNSON: --but if you claim that's your, your, your front door--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --then you can go in from the Negros', uh, block.

HALL: But you could--but, but they could use--they just had to use the--I guess their official address was the side street address.

JOHNSON: No, the entrance--uh, the entrance address.

HALL: --------(??). But, yeah, but, but, but they could use the front of the church--

JOHNSON: --yeah, if, if--for, for all purposes, all, all legal purposes, uh, your front is the Negro block--

HALL: --nm-hmm--

JOHNSON: --not the white block.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: You face--you, you, you, you open out on both blocks.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: All right. Um, that was passed in 1914.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Um, one Negro Postal employee took it upon himself to, uh, to be the plaintiff and fight the case, so he bought a block--b-bought a house in a--in a block, majority of which were white. And then the white person evidently, evidently--he is one of those that I keep referring to as saying that all white people are not bad, and some might be helping, and under circumstances, uh, they can't afford to come out too boldly to help. But I think there must have been some help here. The black man buys the house from the white man. The white man knows that the ordin--ordinance had been passed. He knew that the Negro couldn't 01:44:00live there, but the law didn't say he couldn't buy.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Now, he sold it, and he told the white folk, "I don't know what the man's gonna do with it. I guess he's gonna rent it to white people--"

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: "--knowing black people can't go there."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: So he sold it to the Negro.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: But the Negro announces that he's gonna move in.

HALL: It's--what was his name? You remember?

JOHNSON: Warley, uh--William Warley, W-A-R-L-E-Y. William Warley. William Warley bought the place and announced that he's gonna move in. Now, the white people say, "You can't move in. The law says you can't move in. The police say you--we'll arrest you if you do." Then he says, "Well, I won't pay for it." Now, the man, the white man who sold to him said, "Hell, you, you better pay or else I'll sue you." So he sued to make 01:45:00Warley pay.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And that case went to court, and went on to the Supreme Court. In 1917 the decision was handed down that, uh, the ordinance was unconstitutional, and shall not stand. It's a violation of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Residential Segregation Ordinance of 1914 by the Board of Aldermen was declared unconstitutional in 1917 in a famous United States Supreme Court decision, known as Buchanan v. Warley.

HALL: Buchanan?

JOHNSON: Buchanan was the white man who--

HALL: --he was the seller?--

JOHNSON: --who sold the place, but couldn't collect, and he sued the black man 01:46:00to make him pay--

HALL: --mm--

JOHNSON: --and get the whole thing thrown out. And I don't know whether Warley ever paid, or whether the white man ever sold it to a Negro, or whether the white man went back down and lived in the house. I don't--the, the end of the case is--the end of the situation is that, uh, residential segregation ordinances are unconstitutional. Now, two years later--no, five years later--New Orleans passes the same sort of a law, and the Negros carried the case to federal court right off, and the judge would not judge it. Supreme Court would not hear the case. They said, "We answered that. Just go back and read our opinion of 1917, Buchanan v. Warley. In legal terms, you just simply say--you just simply cite Buchanan v. Warley. No further answer is necessary, because 01:47:00we're not reversing that decision, so that stands." I was a student at the University--uh, at Virginia Union University in 1928, and Richmond passed the same sort of an ordinance, and there again they had Negros going in the side entrance to a f--uh, a big church that the Negros had bought there, because it--the main entrance was on a street where the block, uh, had, uh, mostly whites. Negros had to go in the side entrance, over there at Richmond, Virginia.

HALL: They wouldn't have blocked--they wouldn't have boarded up the front entrance, would they?

JOHNSON: Well, the--I s--

HALL: ----------(??)--

JOHNSON: --I think--I think the, um, lo--chain--

HALL: --chained it?--

JOHNSON: --the, the Negro church people themselves chained the gate, uh, iron gate, iron fence, uh, on, on, on both blocks, on both sides, at the corner.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: Uh, the, the length of the property of the church had, had an iron fence, and, and a gate going in the, the side door, and a gate comin' right out 01:48:00the main door--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and the gate was locked. The church people did that so, so there would be no, uh, no reprisal. We're, we're tryin' to abide by the law. But they carried the case to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court said, "We answered that case in New Orleans by saying we've answered the case in Louisville."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "Your ca--your, your ordinance shall not stand," and the law--the ordinance in Richmond, Virginia was scrapped, the ordinance in New Orleans was scrapped, and the law ordinance in Louisville was scrapped. I don't think any other cities have tried it since. The--all of this is partly answering your question about when the NAACP chapter got started in Louisville. It got 01:49:00started--it was the nucleus around which the, uh, legal, uh, uh, action was, uh, brought to, uh, vi--to, to, uh, outlaw the ordinance of 1914.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: We started in 1914 a chapter, and we've been goin' ever since.

HALL: Uh, but what, what other cities in Kentucky have chapters now?

JOHNSON: Oh, almost, almost anyplace you find a, a, a handful of Negros we've got a chapter now.

HALL: Um-hm, throughout the state.

JOHNSON: Yes.

HALL: Um--

JOHNSON: --um, we've got twenty-five or thirty chapters--

HALL: --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --right now, maybe, maybe--this young man, John Johnson, I want to give him full credit. He's--oh, he's a--he's a--he's gonna make--he's gonna make Lyman Johnson look like nothin'--(laughter)--about forty years from now. But 01:50:00he's got--

HALL: --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --he's got to be--he--he's gonna have to take--he's gonna have to work, like I did, thirty or forty years--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --but at the rate he's goin', nobody will ever--uh, Lyman Johnson will be nobody.

HALL: ------(??)--

JOHNSON: --this John Johnson is goin' over big, I just--uh, I just caution him all the time now, "Be careful. Don't, don't, don't burn out."

HALL: Is he an organizer for the NAACP?

JOHNSON: Yes.

HALL: Is--that's his job?

JOHNSON: No, no, no, he--uh, that's the marvelous thing about it--uh, and most of us--most of us give free time--

HALL: --oh, he's a volunteer.

JOHNSON: Volunteer.

HALL: What does he do for a profession?

JOHNSON: He's, uh--I don't want to get him in trouble he--here, but he's, um, he's an Associate Director of the Kentucky Human Relations Commission. That's his full-time job--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --and I just hope nobody will, uh--none of the anti people, anti-anything--I hope none of the antis will, uh, uh, have him disqualified.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And maybe my talking about him, ugh, might, might--

HALL: --no--

JOHNSON: --uh, p-preempt somebody to, to, uh, try to get him--

HALL: --but wouldn't it be harder for him--uh, this is an interesting question--have, have all the--have all the battles been won?

JOHNSON: Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Um, one of the things I try my best to say and, and, uh, I, I perhaps am getting, uh, overly redundant about it, uh, one of the things I'm saying, uh--I think I put in my--in the speech up there at, uh, Lexington Sunday--I said, "I'm like, like Paul: if I wanted to, I could"--Paul in the Bible--I said, "If I wanted to, I could look back over my shoulder and see so many things, and just--I could just gloat over, over what we've accomplished." I said, "But, uh, Paul says, 'I put all that behind me and I look out in front, and, and, frankly--'" and then I leave Paul--

HALL: --that's toward the Mark, to--

JOHNSON: --yeah, I lea--I leave Paul to--I've, I've, I've done my respects to, to sacred literature now. I said--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --"But, but, but Paul said, 'And I look forward.'" I said, "Now, ladies and gentlemen, and all you young people, let me tell you: just the business of living is exacting. And no matter how much is behind you, when you look out there are mountains yet to be scaled, and they are going to be just as rugged as ever. And if you choose not to face those mountains and attack your problems, if you refuse to do that, it will be an easy slide back down the hill. And, and, 01:53:00and, and your --------(??) will just crush all of the accomplishments that, that are behind. So don't, don't, don't, don't ever get the idea that, that living is going to be easy.

HALL: Wasn't it Thomas Jefferson who said that "Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty"?

JOHNSON: I don't--was it Tom--

HALL: --------(??)--

JOHNSON: --was Tom the one who said that?

HALL: It sounds like him.

JOHNSON: It, it, it goes back to his era--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --his era.

HALL: But, but, now, is it going to be possible for black leaders today to make the kind of dramatic, uh, thrusts that were made in, in, in the thirties and forties and fifties--

JOHNSON: --that--well, I--

HALL: --sixties?--

JOHNSON: --I have--I, I, I answered that, uh, same question to Ms. Nance. You, you, you--I think you--we, we know--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --both know Ms. Nance.

HALL: I don't know--I don't know her personally, but I know who she is.

JOHNSON: "Do I disparage the prospects for new leadership?" And the answer is no. I think every generation will produce its leaders. They may have difficulty emerging, and we may not recognize some of those who have already made quite a bit of a--o-of a, a stab at, uh, solving problems.

HALL: But, but, but the problems to be solved are not as dramatic as they were when you were--

JOHNSON: --I--

HALL: a boy.

JOHNSON: --I don't subscribe to that.

HALL: ----------(??)--

JOHNSON: --I think the problems will be just as--just as agonizing, just as difficult, just as, as, uh, devilish as ever. And I think we will have leaders 01:55:00who will somehow rise to the occasion and do battle. And as I said to Ms. Nance not so long ago, I said, "I have a feeling that some of these emerging leaders are going to be jealous of all the accomplishments that leaders of my generation and the leaders of the generation ahead of me, and so forth and so on, on back, we are going to be jealous of every gain that we've made, and it, it perhaps--and here is the danger: it--they are going to be given up only after violence has, has come into play. I think--I think they're--whatever--whatever gains we've made I think are going to be tenaciously held onto. And, as I said, 01:56:00only violence is going to make--

HALL: --do you think there's a threat that--

JOHNSON: --yes--

HALL: --that there may be--

JOHNSON: --yes.

HALL: ----------(??)?

JOHNSON: Absolutely. Absolutely. I am--I am deter--I mean, I am convinced, I am convinced that a society that can tolerate, in our big cities, forty to fifty percent of the young people from seventeen to twenty-three to go unemployed is sitting on a powder keg, and only stupid oxen will neglect it. That is awful. I have been to Philadelphia. I'll leave my daughter, who lives in a comfortable, uh, little, uh, arrangement. I leave her sometimes. I go to visit my sister, who lives in just as comfortable a situation up there in, in, uh, Manhattan. I, I 01:57:00just get in my car, and I tell them I'm going out to get me the morning paper, and drive around into some of these pockets of unemployment, and see grown people sitting around all day long out on the curbstone. They must be plotting maliciously to get even with the society in which there is no likelihood that they can honestly earn their keep. And, and, and why Mr. Carter--and when I say Mr. Carter, I mean, I mean symbolic Mr. President--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --I don't care who, who, who is president, Nixon or anybody else--uh, Mr. President, why can't you stir the people up to see that you're sitting on a 01:58:00powder keg? And then I, I, I--I-I'm not--I'm not pipe dreaming. I went th--I, I went through a, a--an epitome of this thing, right here in Louisville in 1968. Nineteen sixty-eight, I--just two blocks up the street here, a bunch of young people were plotting to break out window pla--uh, plate glass windows. I said, "Young fellas, you can't win. You can't win. The, the cards are stacked against you. If you--if it comes to, uh, uh, uh, uh, a race war, you don't ha--I bet there isn't a one of you around here that's got more than about twelve or fifteen cartridges in--to go in--you got a real nice pistol, but where are you gonna--when you use up those fifteen or twenty, uh, uh, cartridges, where are you gonna get some more? You're gonna have to go to a white man to buy you some 01:59:00more ammunition. And when you go there, the white man is not dumb; he's already been to the store and bought the store out--(laughter)--and there isn't a black man that I--I haven't heard of a black man--talk about your black destiny and you run, you control your own way. Well, what black man has produced ammunition? Where you gon--where, where you gonna get a refill? You can't win." And what do they tell me? "Mr. Johnson--now, Mr. Johnson, you've got some education. Mr. Johnson, you've had a job nearly all your life. Mr. Johnson, you are now retired. Mr. Johnson, we love you. You've done a lot for us. Mr. Johnson, your children are grown and educated and gone, and they've got good jobs. Mr. 02:00:00Johnson, Mr. Johnson, move on. We don't have any of those things. There is--there is nothin' for us to lose." And one said, "Yeah, I've been to the penitentiary three times, and it's better in the penitentiary than it is out here. At least they make us work and they--and they treat us mighty rough up there, but at least, uh, we got a place to sleep--"

HALL: --yeah--

JOHNSON: "--and we got something to eat."

HALL: Mm.

JOHNSON: "And, and, and we haven't got anything to lose, Mr. Johnson. Please move along now. Don't, don't, don't stand out here on the corner, because when the wagon comes it's gonna take all of us, and we don't want you to go." And the last thing I saw was, when I moved away from there, they had the thumb pointing for me. "Just two blocks down the way is your house. Move on, Mr. Johnson."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "Move on." Now, if anybody could s--could've gone through that experience, or go through the experience down here at Twenty--at, uh, Twenty-Eight and Greenwood--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --just before that, uh, tha-that little racial disturbance took place down there--see, this one that I was talkin' about up here at Nineteenth and Walnut was, uh--that was in the talking stage.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: This one was in the acting stage. I was down there, uh, at a little restaurant at Twenty-Eighth and Garland when the agitation was getting into high gear, just before it exploded. My wife and I were eating, uh, dinner down at, uh--one block away, at the Garland Street, uh, Restaurant. And my, my wife, uh, 02:02:00said, "What's goin' on outside?" And I, I knew, and I said, "Oh, they're gettin' a little, little, uh, uh, stirred up. Uh, they--" she said, "Yes, but, uh, they--they're beginning to congregate out there, and they're talking loud, and, and, and, uh, what's goin' on?" And I'd get up and go to the door, and I;d come back. I went to the front door of the place, and I left my table about three times. And she says--I said, uh, "Yes, uh, it's getting pretty, pretty bad out there." She said, "Well, why did we have to come down and eat at this place this night?" Now, we'd eaten down there. It was a nice, nice little restaurant, and we'd eaten down there for dinner several times before. But she said, "This night, I--why did you bring me down here for, uh--you knew the, the thing was getting, uh, somewhat out of hand." I said, "Yes, well, I tell you: you finish 02:03:00up and I will take you home, and I'll pay up, and, uh, we'll get--we'll get out and go." I knew it was getting dangerous then. So, sure enough, I drove out, brought her home, and came in the house with her. And then she said, "Where are you goin'?" (laughs) I said, "I'm going back to see the show." She said, "Oh, Lyman, don't go back down there." I drove back down there, and I was just meandering all around. Parked my car. One little girl who u--used to--who was a, a student, then, at Parkland Junior High School, saw me out in the street, trying to tell these young guys, "You can't win." It was the same story I just told you about.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I said, "Fellas, you can't win this one." And they were tellin' me all over again, "Mr. Johnson, Mr. Johnson, go, go, go, go ahead now. Just, just go 02:04:00on away. You've done--you've done the best you could, and you've done a lot for us, but you haven't done enough."

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: "We are still, uh, depressed and whatnot." This little girl went in the house and told her father that Mr. Johnson is out there trying to get the people to disperse. And the man came out and said, "Mr. Johnson, now I live down here, and I'm on the inside, and I'm staying on the inside of my house. I got all my ammunition stacked right there at, uh--where I can get my hands on it, and if anybody comes in this yard, he's gonna be a dead duck. But--police or anybody else. Anybody comes in this yard, I'm gonna take a shot at 'em. Because I'm not going to assume that he's comin' in here peacefully." He said, "I don't care who, who comes in here. I'm just gonna go to the door and tell 'em to stand 02:05:00back, don't come in, don't come in the front gate." He says, "But my daughter says that you were down here, and maybe you don't understand how serious this thing is. Now, these young people are telling you to leave." He said, "Where is your car?" I said, "It is right out there." He said, "I'll tell you what you do." He said, "With your light skin, you're not safe down here. They--when, when, when, when the thing breaks out, they're going to visit, uh, danger on any white person they see." Said, "You turn your car around, in the middle of the block here, and go back somewhere--park your car somewhere else. Don't turn your 02:06:00lights on. Just drive in the dark, and just turn around and go on back. And then after you get started, then turn your lights on and, and, and, and, and drive like everything and get out from down here. And I don't care--carry it about five blocks away from me. Then, if you want to come back again, you walk back down here." I was down there. I, I did that. I got back down, and I saw a Yellow Cab drive down Twenty-Eighth Street, and when they got to this corner, at Twenty-Eighth and Garland, where we'd been eating our dinner, when that car got there a brick landed on the front windshield on one side; another brick landed on the other side of the windshield. The whole front, uh, windshield just wiped out, just crashed, broken out. And the driver had the, the, the white passenger 02:07:00on the backseat to fall down on the floor, and he, somehow, peepin' up over that broken thing, uh, me--made a left turn at the corner and came out from there, and before he got out every window in the place wa-was smashed out of that Yellow Cab.

HALL: Was he--was he a white driver?

JOHNSON: White driver, and had a white--

HALL: --white passenger--

JOHNSON: --white passenger. And I had tried to get the people, "Don't do that. Don't do it. That--that particular driver is not responsible. And, and the pati--I mean, the, the, the, the fare that he had, uh, the, the passenger, it's not their fault." Said, "God damn all white people." I said, "You can't win that way fellas." Well, uh, I went through it. I mean to say I've actually been right 02:08:00in the middle of all these things. And why, going back to my main thesis, why would our government be so concerned--I grant that we ought to be concerned about what goes on over in Iran, or what goes over between Israel and Egypt. I grant, I grant that we ought to take part, and I have gone with the Jews to Washington. I, I went with a delegation to Washington to urge our Senators and Congressmen, the whole delegation of nine people--we met with them one s--one morning for breakfast. "Do all you can to encourage and support the President in bringing peace between the Arabs and the, uh, Israeli." That shows my commitment--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --on, on a wide world scale. But when you're attending to all these things down in Panama, and down in, in, in, uh, Cuba, and in, uh, Chile, and in 02:09:00Argentina, and recently in Mexico, when we're attending to all those things, please don't forget that you're sitting on a powder keg right here at home.

HALL: So you see unemployment as a number one--

JOHNSON: --sure--

HALL: --priority--

JOHNSON: --sure. I --------(??)--

HALL: --in the future--

JOHNSON: --I went through it. I went through it. Uh, I don't need to go back over my experience between 1930 and '35. I've been through it.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: I know what it means to, to--I had, at the University of Michigan, just before I finally became number one dropout, and University of Michigan--I remember when the banks closed. I didn't have but twenty-seven dollars in the bank, but when the bank closed I had fifteen cents in my pocket, and I couldn't 02:10:00borrow any money from anybody. You couldn't buy anything on credit, and fifteen cents didn't pay my lunch, my, my, my meal. But after that fifteen cents was gone, I--it was a hell of a thing, to ha--I didn't have but twenty-seven dollars and, and couldn't get in. Now, now, you--some of--some of the things, uh, are, are, are not academic with me.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: They're not theoretical with me. They're practical.

HALL: Um-hm.

JOHNSON: And, uh, I, I, I, I go around. I, I get around (??). But I go around and ask the brainy people, "How do you do that? How do you do that?" But my experiences are practi--in, in the practical world make me--make me have a, a, a second sense--

HALL: --um-hm--

JOHNSON: --not of theory, but of simple survival.

HALL: Um-hm. And our time is almost up.

JOHNSON: --------(??).

HALL: Uh, uh, uh, but you see this as, as a--as really a racial problem in the future? Because so many young blacks--

JOHNSON: --no, no, no, I don't think it's racial. I think--

[End of interview.]