Partial Transcript: --with Lyman Johnson on Tuesday May the 22nd at, uh, his home on Muhammad Ali Boulevard between the hours of eleven in the morning and two in the afternoon.
Segment Synopsis: The interviewer begins by asking Johnson about how it affects black people to always have to be race conscious, while white people don’t often think about their race. Johnson talks about how important it is for white children to be taught a true version of American history, with the harm white people have committed against other races included, along with the important African Americans who contributed to history. He says we must stop romanticizing the South in our culture, in cultural artifacts like “Gone with the Wind” and “My Old Kentucky Home.” Johnson also emphasizes that we have to teach the history of all non-white people, not just African Americans. He talks about the history of Chinese Americans working on the railroad. Johnson says that manifest destiny is inherently racist, the idea that the white man can take over the whole country. He also objects to the fact that African American history is taught separately from white American history. Johnson says it is important to realize the potential black people could have had, if they hadn’t been tied down by oppression.
Keywords: African American academics; African American history; Benjamin Banneker; Chinese-Americans; Gone with the Wind (Book); Gone with the Wind (Motion picture); History education; Immigration; Manifest Destiny; Race consciousness; Southern culture; Whitewashing of American history
Subjects: African Americans--Race identity.; American culture; Education; Emmigration and immigration.; Racism; United States--Race relations.
Partial Transcript: What are some of the--what, what are some of the problems that the black person you think will face in the future?
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about the problems that black people will face in the future. He says that racism is so deeply entrenched in America, that it is hard to shake. He talks about the history of African Americans in the United States--that there was a sense of possibility for them right after the Civil War, but that was quickly taken away. He says that after World War II, black servicemen came home ready to fight for their civil rights. Johnson talks in depth about the problems with discrimination in education. He says that the high drop out rates among African American students are a result of their economic conditions, race, and being pushed out of the system by white teachers and supervisors.
Keywords: African American drop out rates; African American history; African American schoolteachers; Educational inequality; Reconstruction; Wealth inequality; White schoolteachers
Subjects: African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Education.; African Americans--Social conditions--1975-; Discrimination in education.; Education; Education--Political aspects; Educational equalization; Racism; United States--Armed Forces--African Americans.; United States--Race relations.
Partial Transcript: You see there's, there's another one of those haughty concoctions that we people in the United States have arrogated onto ourselves.
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about how the rest of the world sees Americans as a cocky and overbearing presence in the world. Johnson then talks about the relationship of the United States to the rest of the world, and the history of immigration in the U.S. He gives an overview of the history of immigration laws, and the revisions to the laws made in the 1920s which allowed immigration from Southeastern Europe. White Americans did not like these people, but they were white-passing and able to be assimilated, whereas black people have been in this country for centuries and never been fully assimilated.
Keywords: Assimilation into American culture; Immigration laws; Passing (racial identity); Southeastern European immigrants
Subjects: African Americans--Social conditions.; American culture; Emigration and immigration.; Immigrants; United States--Race relations.
Partial Transcript: But don’t you think that one of the differences, is that--because the black people in this country have been speaking English for hundreds of years.
Segment Synopsis: The interviewer asks Johnson about black vernacular. Johnson gives an overview of the history of black vernacular and how black people learned English as a necessity during slavery, or a form of English with some remnants of native African language. The interviewer says that he thinks that black vernacular is a folk language. Johnson talks about going to a black school in a white neighborhood, and how some of the kids at the black school would say Johnson and his siblings talked like "crackers" because they associated with poor white people.
Keywords: African American dialects; Language acquisition; Language learning; Regional language differences; Southern United States dialects; United States dialects
Subjects: African Americans--Race identity.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Social life and customs.; English language.; Intercultural communication.
Partial Transcript: --I, I, I associated--yes, I associated with, uh, some of the, uh--shall I use the word 'nicer?' You, you do, you--you kind of guess what I mean by 'nicer' white families?
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about a white woman he knew who would have him and his brother over to her house. She told him to stay away from poor white people, because they would bring down his reputation. The interviewer asks if it was rare for white people to have his family over. Johnson said it was, but that this woman was more liberal than other white people. However, she only invited Johnson and his brother because they came from a respected, educated family, and she would not have invited poorer children. Johnson also talks about the economic benefits of wealthier white people pitting poor whites and poor blacks against one another, to drive down the cost of labor. Johnson says though, that no matter how educated his family became, they would always be seen by their race. He tells a story about how a white fruit vendor came to his house, to sell cantaloupes to his father. The fruit vendor calls his father “uncle” and his father does not take kindly to this. The white man pulled out a knife, and they get in a physical altercation which ends with his father threatening the man with his shotgun, until he leaves. Johnson talks about how most of the fruit vendors were white, because they were the farm owners, and black people just did cheap labor on their farms.
Keywords: African American farm workers; Capitalism; Cost of labor; Race relations in the rural South; Sharecropping; Southern white liberals; White liberalism
Subjects: African Americans--Agriculture.; African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Social conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Racism; United States--Race relations.
Partial Transcript: What, what were some of the other, uh, kinds of produce that were sold from the wagons?
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about the types of produce that they ate growing up, both produce that they bought and that they grew themselves. Johnson says that they have so many vegetables that they could feed themselves most of the time, they only bought melons.
Keywords: Agriculture; Family farms; Produce; Rural southern agriculture; Vegetable gardens
Subjects: African Americans--Agriculture.; African Americans--Southern States.; Families.; Farms, small.
Partial Transcript: Another, another subject. Have you, have you been a lifelong Democrat?
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about his family's history with politics. He said that his father and grandfather were lifelong Republicans, because they remembered the Republican Party as the party that freed the slaves. However, Johnson says that the Republican Party also abandoned them, and left them when they made a deal with the Democrats in the 1876 election. Johnson said that his grandfather was the first person in his family to vote, and was very proud of it. Johnson talks about the ways in which black people were kept from voting after the end of Reconstruction through grandfather clauses, poll taxes, and even physical intimidation. He tells a story about a man he knew who was asked to recite the Constitution before he could vote. The man quoted the Gettysburg Address instead, and was allowed to vote because the white man guarding the polling station didn't recognize the difference. Johnson then talks about his uncle's experience being a delegate at the Republican National Convention.
Keywords: African American political involvement; African Americans in Republican Party; Democrats in 19th century; Federal Republican Party; Grandfather clauses; Local Republican Party; Poll taxes; Reconstruction; Republican National Convention; Republicans in 19th century
Subjects: African American leadership; African Americans--Civil rights; African Americans--Legal status, laws, etc.; African Americans--Politics and government.; Civil rights--Law and legislation.; Voting.
Partial Transcript: They are--they are--take, take, take the name Connelly out there in Texas...
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about how the U.S. political parties have switched over the course of the 20th century. He talks about how black voters have turned against the Republican Party, because the party is growing more and more conservative and pushes out its more liberal members. He laments growing wealth inequality, and traces the history of the Republican Party back to our founding fathers, and other figures throughout history. He said the means were always there for powerful people to have economic control.
Keywords: Democratic Party in the 20th century; Franklin Roosevelt; Great Depression; History of wealth inequality; Republican Party in the 20th century; Wealth inequality
Subjects: African Americans--Politics and government.; Depressions--1929; Economics.; Politics and government; United States--Economic policy.; Voting.
Partial Transcript: But, but the Republican Party that we know today was started in eighteen--in the 1850s as a very radical party, wasn't it?
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about how many white people supported abolition for economic, not moral reasons. Working class white people could not get jobs because they could not compete with free slave labor. Johnson says that these white people were pushed up into the hills, onto the poor land, and this was the beginning of "hillbillies." Johnson says that he thinks Abraham Lincoln’s views on slavery were primarily economic, and that he came from poor Southern white people and knew their struggle. Johnson then says that he has always had sympathy for poor Southern whites, although his friends joke with him that he should be more worried about African Americans. He says that the system of slavery hurt both groups of people. Johnson then talks about the economics involved in slavery, and the economic concerns of slave owners.
Keywords: Abolition; Abraham Lincoln; Economics of slavery; Poor Southern whites; Race relations in the rural South; Slave-owners; Slavery
Subjects: African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Southern States.; Appalachian Region--Social conditions; United States--Race relations.
Partial Transcript: Uh, I, I worked for less than white teachers.
Segment Synopsis: Johnson talks about a woman he knew who worked at the bank for a $1.25 a day, and hired a black woman to do the housework for 75 cents, even though the black woman did more work around the house. Johnson says that the white woman liked that she was making a profit. He also says that, when he was a teacher, he made less than white teachers.
Keywords: African American domestic workers; Pay inequality; Racial discrimination in wages; Wage inequality
Subjects: African Americans--Economic conditions.; African Americans--Employment.; Discrimination in employment.; Teachers; Teachers--Kentucky; Wages.
Partial Transcript: Do you think the black person would have been better off if he'd have gone back to Africa?
Segment Synopsis: The interviewer asks if Johnson has thought about if black people would be better off returning to Africa. Johnson says no. It would be very hard to figure out what tribe that man belonged to originally. He also says that now, most African Americans are mixed race. He also says that, today, Africans view African Americans as foreigners. He compares the African Americans returning to Africa and creating a colony to the Israeli-Palestine situation and the moral complications of that.
Keywords: Africa; African tribal identity; League of Nations; Liberia; Relationship between African Americans and Africa
Subjects: African Americans--Genealogy.; African Americans--Race identity.; Emigration and immigration.
HALL: --with Lyman Johnson on Tuesday, May the twenty-second at uh his home onMuhammad Ali Boulevard between the hours of eleven in the morning and two in the afternoon. [Pause in recording.]
HALL: As I was driving over here, I was thinking that much of what we have saidon these tapes has related, uh, to the fact, either directly or indirectly in some ways, that you are a black person. That is that your race has made--it has dominated your life so to speak, at least the public aspects of it, 00:01:00and I suspect, uh, much of the private aspects of your life. Uh, it has not been that way with me. You know, I'm white, and, uh, I just don't think about my skin color, and I never have bec-, I guess because I haven't had to. Does this--what does this say about, uh, American society up to now? The fact that you--that black people and other minorities too have had to be racially conscious because it's been, it's been probably the most important fact of your life, hasn't it?
JOHNSON: Yes. I've touched on that, uh, two or three times, and, uh, now, thatyou bring it out, um, I, I will show you where I've touched on it, and I'll show you, uh, uh, what has motivated me to a large extent. Uh, I pointed 00:02:00out the, the need for white people to study American history not just white history.
JOHNSON: You see the trouble has been that our historians have glorified, have,uh, romanticized the contributions of white people to the almost absolute neglect of a fifth if not at times a third of the population and in the South, perhaps, uh, uh, two-fifths of the population.
JOHNSON: Now, when a child goes up--a white child goes up--grows up through, uh,high school, first grade through high school and studies what he 00:03:00thinks is American history, and all he has seen is the--is the history--is the record, the recording of nothing but white people, then he i-, when he comes out--even when he goes to college, the history books--and I've criticized the University of Louisville, uh, for the, uh, textbook that they use in world uh civilization--uh, they have cut out of the, of the teaching evidently because the textbook that they used. I don't know what they're using now, but this was about three years ago, up until three years ago. The textbook that they used had called out only the contributions of Western European civilization. And I found when I, uh--I was teaching a course, an extension course for the 00:04:00Uni-, for Kentucky State uh University here in Louisville, and I couldn't get the textbook that I wanted, uh, from the bookshelf over there at Kentucky at, at Frankfort. And, uh, I said, "Well, I'll just pick up the one. I can get several here at the bookstore here at the University of Louisville." And uh when I got the book, I was--I was embarrassed and disgusted that I had asked all the students to buy this book from the University of Louisville. Whatever they were using--
JOHNSON: --for world civilization, I would use for my class--
JOHNSON: --and, uh, there was nothing about uh Islam.
JOHNSON: There was nothing about uh the civilizations that had helped make whatis total civilization. Now, uh, let's get to the point here in, in this country. If from the first grade
and if you went to the University of Louisville all the way through00:05:00college, if the emphasis had been put on, on white participation, you know, culture and whatever else there was is either soft-pedalled or neglected or ignored, then I, I maintain that the white child is, i-, is just a half-baked scholar. He does not know it, and, and, and to a large extent, he is innocent, and that's what makes it so, so difficult. If he maliciously tried to, uh, negate the contributions of other people, then that would, uh, that would be sinister. But he is a person who honestly thinks he knows American 00:06:00history and he doesn't know about uh the contributions of, uh, James Weldon Johnson.
HALL: Um-hm. But what would that--what does that do for the black, for the blackstudent though?
JOHNSON: Well now, if the black student--and I pointed this out to, uh, some ofthe people and, uh, some of the reporters in, in, in the daily paper, and I was quoted the other day, uh, about the contributions of the, uh, black teacher. Like the, the benefits of a black teacher who is well prepared teaching black students. He supplements that American history book, and therefore--
JOHNSON: --the black student is likely to have him a, a more well-roundedconcept of the record of the American people than the white student.
JOHNSON: The white student goes through, uh, and, and, and I used to00:07:00criticize this in the, uh--in the days when I was a teacher. Uh, I used to criticize Male, Manual, um, uh, uh, Atherton, and Shawnee when Shawnee was a, wa-, wa-, was an all-white school. I used to criticize all of them for giving only a fraction of American history.
JOHNSON: When, as a matter of fact, the black students were getting all that thewhite students got plus this other part.
JOHNSON: Now, when you, when you take a, uh, uh, a picture like Gone with theWind, uh, oh, they romanticized, uh, all out of proportion southern history. Uh, they romanticize and, uh, and glorify-- fantasize, is the word I 00:08:00should say, what was. And then when
you--when, when the history--the white history teacher, uh, even in teachingKentucky history, when he does refer to uh the slaves, uh, they, they refer to, uh, the, the song or the poem My Old Kentucky Home. The only place where they refer to black people is "and the darkies were gay," and that's the damnedest lie. If the darkies were gay in, in quotations marks, I hate to use that term.
JOHNSON: But if the darkies were gay, why were, why were white people so afraidof revolutions?
JOHNSON: Why were they so afraid that the black people, uh, following theleadership of people like Nat Turner. (Hall coughs) Why were they always so afraid that, uh-- why would they let them not--why would they not let 00:09:00them learn to read and write?
JOHNSON: They punish them to keep them from uh, uh learning to read and write.If they were so happy with their lot, why did the white people fear them so much? Obviously, they fear
them, so then, uh, you--it's, it's, uh, it's false teaching to ignore thecontributions of the blacks and the Indians and the Hispanic Americans.
HALL: The Asians?
JOHNSON: We haven't--well, yes, out in, uh--
JOHNSON: --in the west, out in the west.
JOHNSON: Uh, as I--I was surprised myself. I had to dig it up, but I wassurprised to know how we treated the Chinese. 00:10:00
JOHNSON: I had to dig it up. I hadn't been taught that. Now, my, my blackteachers had taught me quite a bit about, uh, uh, about what had been neglected about black, uh, black people and to a certain extent about Indian people.
JOHNSON: But, uh, the history book hadn't told me much about the way we treatedthe, the, the Chinese. When we wanted to build the railroads--when we wanted to build the railroads across the West, we wanted to go across the mountains. And when we wanted to, uh, confront the, the, the Indians out there and the wilds, you can get out there in one of those places and, and get stuck with enough provisions to last two weeks, and, and, uh, nobody would bring provisions for five weeks, you'd starve. Now, whom did they get to do all of that, 00:11:00uh, terrible work? Uh, they went to China and got the coolies--
JOHNSON: --to come. Now, uh, we don't, we don't--we are ashamed, you see? We,when I say we, I mean white America is ashamed to put into the record.
JOHNSON: Actually, what--if you are a graduate student and will go down and digup what actually happened did happen.
JOHNSON: We're ashamed. Uh, we are ashamed to tell the people that we stole allof Texas and New Mexico and Ari--sixteen of what we now have, states in this country. Sixteen of those states were taken from Mexico. We didn't even ask them for them. Oh, we'd glorify--American history glorifies Samuel Houston--
JOHNSON: --and, and, uh, Austin, and, uh, and, and those fellas who,00:12:00who, who moved West taking over whatever was out there and we, we--I, I referred to it, uh, the other day, one day here when I said that, uh, Mr. Turner, uh, Jackson. What is his first name?
HALL: Frederick Jackson.
JOHNSON: Frederick Jackson Turner glorify this by saying it was manifestdestiny. It was just--and, and the way I used to tell it in my class, I said, uh, "Glo-, uh, manifest destiny simply says here comes the white man. Everything, everything, mountains, trees, deserts, black people, yellow people, Mexican, colored, brown people, get the hell out of the way, here comes the white man. Don't blame, don't blame the white man for taking over, that's 00:13:00
manifest--that's God's will"--
JOHNSON: --"and, and that it shall be." Now, that has been taught, that has beentaught and taught and taught in our American history classes evidently because that's all that's written into the history book until say 1965. They didn't start changing any of that stuff until '65.
HALL: But let me ask you, don't you think that, uh, American history books aremuch more--are much better rounded--
JOHNSON: --well that--
HALL: --than they were--
JOHNSON: --that--since '65--
JOHNSON: --since '65. Uh, the, the--(Hall coughs)--Brown v. Board of Education1954, it took about twelve years for any of that to soak in, and the book publishers began to respond just gradually. They first had supplements to their books--
JOHNSON: --and, and the next--after about twelve years, the next00:14:00editions began to, uh, throw the stuff in where it belonged on--
JOHNSON: --when, when you'd discuss certainly (??). For instance, um, BookerWashington should not be put in a supplement right along by the side of, uh, uh, Du Bois. They were not contemporaneous. Uh, Booker Washington, oh no, pardon me, not Booker--Frederick Douglass.
HALL: Douglass, um-hm.
JOHNSON: Booker Washington and, uh, and Du Bois were contemporaneous. Um, I'mthinking about Frederick Douglass. Now, Frederick Douglass was contemporaneous with Abraham Lincoln, and put them, uh--they were two great American, uh, uh, uh, uh, personalities.
JOHNSON: And they operated around--they came into their greatness between 1860and 1900.
JOHNSON: Now, uh, Benjamin Bannecker should not be put in a00:15:00supplement along by the side of uh, Booker Washington. Benjamin Bannecker helped to lay out the, uh--helped to, to, to chart the layout for Washington, DC.
HALL: Uh, spell his name, Benjamin?
JOHNSON: Banneker, B-a-n-n-e-c-k-e-r (??).
HALL: Who was he? I'm trying to--
JOHNSON: --he was a Negro who was a contemporary of, uh, Thomas Jefferson, ahighly trained, uh, uh, surveyor.
JOHNSON: And he surveyed the, the city, uh, the, the area for the layout ofWashington, DC, and you don't put that in the history book because he is a black man. You just skip over that.
And, and, and that is not fair to the little white child who comes00:16:00along and thinks everything was done by white people. When they see black people coming in, Well, we wouldn't mind having him if, if--but, but no blacks have ever done anything, what can--what can this black do? Well, uh, all of these things are now beginning to be put into the history book.
HALL: But isn't there a danger, Lyman, that you are--that you might be searchingdesperately for big names of, of American black people--that is blacks who did big things like Thomas Jefferson, like Abraham Lincoln, like, uh, uh, Franklin Roosevelt when--to make heroes out of them or at least to proclaim them heroes? Whereas really you don't need to do that because after all, the real heroes, it seems to me, throughout American history had not been necessarily big 00:17:00names. Uh, the real progress, uh--the real contribution, let's say, of the black person seems to me, uh, regardless of the circumstances under which these contributions were made, that the real contribution was in the everyday--(clears throat)--work. When I, uh, when I think of the--(clears throat)--the, the slave labor that, uh, was ex-, exacted from the black person, uh, in the days of slavery and after the days of slavery even in my own lifetime that the, the, the incredible, uh, hours that were put in, in the cotton fields and the tobacco fields and the cane, uh, the cane patches, that's where the heroes are really. I mean, these people didn't go home and shoot themselves, that they--that they endured, as Walker says, they endured. Isn't this where you have the 00:18:00real contribution of American, uh, American black people as well as American white people, the poor people. The, the wealthy people who are lucky enough to be the--this--the beneficiaries, and anybody can, can, can receive dividends. Anybody can, can, uh, can crack the whip, but the, the real work bef-, uh, before the machine age and before the age of automation--I mean that's machine age--was done, wasn't it, by the poor people, the workers, the workers?
JOHNSON: Almost every--
JOHNSON: --almost every civilization will have a bunch of leaders to emerge.They, they just come out--they're indigenous so to speak. Now, um, you've got to have a George Washington around whom a lot of things can be done--
JOHNSON: --Benjamin Franklin around who, uh--around whose name a lot00:19:00of things were done. Uh, you've got to have these people as catalysts to put the whole works together--
JOHNSON: --and, uh, and, and see that the show goes on. It's got to be managed--
JOHNSON: --and, of course, uh, the historian usually, uh, tries to see the greatbig movement and then look down and pick out, uh, around whose name was all of this done. And, of course, uh, you just can't, you can't put into the history books every one of the people, uh, in that civilization. Now, when you get around to the blacks, when you systematically try to leave out, try to ignore a certain segment of the people--
JOHNSON: --then, uh, the outstanding thing is when you do get one who00:20:00emerges from that substrata. You've got to ma-, you've got to embellish that particular individual so as to show what might have happened if the, if the, uh, clamps had not been so rigidly fixed around the whole batch--
JOHNSON: --when one gets out. For instance, I, I, I make a--make a big ado aboutCharles Drew, the Negro, uh, physician who, uh, who worked out the formula for blood plasma.
JOHNSON: I, I, I, I, I hate to pick out Charles Drew and embellish his name sogreatly except that if Charles Drew did this. If you reach down in the ghetto from which he came, isn't it possible that there is somebody else down there that you could pull out to, uh, to accomplish some, not, not 00:21:00necessarily, uh, blood plasma because that's already been done? But there's something else yet to be discovered--
JOHNSON: Something else is yet to be worked out. And uh, as the United NegroCollege Fund, uh, committee says, "A brain is a terrible thing to waste."
JOHNSON: Now, how many, how many are being wasted? That's the reason why I liketo say if, if there was a Nat Turner, if there was a uh Frederick Douglass, if there were a Booker Washington, if there were a Du Bois, uh, if there were Roy Wilkins, how many more are there down there that could have been developed if the restrictions and discrimina-, uh, discriminatory, uh, practices 00:22:00had not been used to keep them from rising to the top?
JOHNSON: And, and our system, uh, that, that I, uh, uh--I'm criticizing is weseem to ignore the possibility that there were other great souls--
JOHNSON: --that were wasted simply because, first of all--for instance, my, my,my father, my grandfather, uh, if he could not read and write and could build a house, how much better house--
JOHNSON: --could we--can was suppose that he might have been able to build hadhe had the facility of, uh, mathematics and architectural drawing and all that kind of business? Uh, not to, not to have to carry every little detail of the thing in his mind and figure it out every time he started to 00:23:00work. If he could read his notes, it'll be better.
JOHNSON: How many, how many people had the ability? Now, take uh PhillisWheatley who, who, who wrote poems. Uh, uh, um, her owner, the, uh, lady up in Massachusetts, when she found out that the girl had a gift for poetry, she relieved her of the drudgery of ordinary slave life and, and gave her a little desk and, and, and helped her to read and write and, and study.
And, and she wrote some beautiful poems--
JOHNSON: --Phillis Wheatley. We have a school named for Phillis Wheatley. Uh--
HALL: --she was not even mentioned in American literature books until, uh, justa, just a handful years ago like five or ten years ago.
JOHNSON: Well, you see it's our, our society, our whole structure.00:24:00
HALL: Is that you?
[Pause in recording.]
HALL: Now, quick questions but some very important questions and then I want toget into, uh, another general area. What, what are some of the, what, what are some of the problems that the black person you think will face in the future? Now, we, we were talking last time about employment. You, you see that as a very crucial area for the fu-, for everyone not just for the black person but particularly for the black person. What, what are, what are some of the problems that the black person is going to face in American society? Can you--
JOHNSON: --this business of racism is, is so deep rooted in our American ethicthat that is going to overshadow all the rest of the, uh, existence 00:25:00of black people in this country for a long time to come. Now, there is great improvement in certain corners, and that improvement is genuine, I think, on the part of white people. But there is a, a, uh, countervailing, uh, movement, which would throw the whole thing off track and, and suddenly prevent it from going any further and perhaps, uh, uh, allowing us to, uh, retrograde. Uh, 00:26:00I, I look at the history of our country from 1865 to 1878, and I parallel that very much with what happened since 1955. From '55 to '70, '79, there was a spirit of let's, let's be fair, let's give the black man a reasonable chance. Seventy-five--no, no, 1877, '76, '77 the trend changed, and actually from 1890 to 1915, all of the progressive, uh, provisions were wiped out so far 00:27:00as the black man was concerned, and it was a dark day for black people when I was born into this world. As I look back over it, I didn't know that I was going--that my people were going through such a rough time from 1906 when I was born to 1960. They were dark days. And we didn't begin to come out of that until 1946 when World War II had, had come to an end, and those black boys came back and said, "Hell, if we--if we've got guts enough to fight the Germans and the Italians and the Japanese, then we'll fight any of these rascals in 00:28:00the United States. We'll take it into our own hands." And several people, President Roosevelt, President Truman, and all the rest of the presidents, John Kennedy and then, and, and, uh, and, and, uh, Lyndon Johnson, they all said, "Let's do something about this problem." Now, the big problem is how do you cultivate a, a, a, a, a majority people into a position where they will not let racism dominate everything they, they, they have to say or do, the whole, uh, relationship with the black people? Now, once, once we could ever accomplish that then like I, I gave to a group of black people in a little talk 00:29:00that I gave Sunday night of this week, just, just this past Sunday night. I said, "If you were not black, if you were white, just, just overnight you became white, you would still have work like hell to make a living. Just being white is not going to save you."
JOHNSON: So now, what we've got to do if we can get this situation adjustedwhere the, the, the, the society will not hold you back because of your color, then you've got to have preparation. And that's, that's going to be a long, long hard pull to get the black people as well trained from the kindergarten up through high school and perhaps college or university. But if, if we 00:30:00don't do something about the situation now, let--let's just, let's just wait when the kids go to school in the first grade on those test scores that they give, comprehensive, uh, attainers. If in the first grade, they are fairly close to the whites, and when you get about the third grade, the white student is registering about--the normal fiftieth percentile, and the blacks are, right, hitting about forty. If when they get to about the seventh grade, they are making--the blacks are making about thirty-five; if when they get through high school, the average black is making a--is hitting about thirtieth 00:31:00percentile, then something is wrong. If they start out fairly equal, somebody's got to find out what to do to keep these kids from being to--from
dropping twenty or twenty-five percentile points by the time they finish highschool. Because if they don't, if that is a, if that is a fair index of their general comprehension, how in the world can a person on the thirtieth percentile rating compete when he goes out for a job with a person who on average is a fifty-percentile person?
HALL: What do you think are some of the causes for that discrepancy at--
JOHNSON: --I don't know.
JOHNSON: I, I, I don't want to put--e-, even touch that right now. I00:32:00want to pursue that just one point further. Um, if the, if the, uh, black person with thirty-percentile capability is in competition with the fifty-percentile capability, the only job that's going to be left for him will be--if a job at all will be survive, menial, lowest paying, the most marginal. In a highly technological society, that job won't exist. Now, are we going to anticipate with all this movement now to get white people to give blacks opportunities regardless of color? In a technological society, are we going to condemn all that batch of people to perpetual idleness, unemployment? Now, if 00:33:00so, that's a dismal picture for black people. And, frankly, I don't want, I don't want a, uh, uh, an, an illiterate working on the carburetor of my car. I'm going to take it to the, uh, garage, the General Motors, uh, representative, and let them see if they can fix my little Chevrolet. I don't want a dummy lifting the hood because he'll do more damage. It'll cost me more to get the thing put back together. Now, am I saying that because of the technological preparation necessary that I can't take it to a garage where there will be a 00:34:00black person to help, uh, to help, uh, support his own family because he isn't prepared? That is the big problem. Now, what, uh--you ask, uh, the other question, what can you do to prevent
it? The best I can say is to get a bunch of teachers and administrators whorecognize the seriousness of this problem and not be so anxious to, to push out. They talk about the dropouts, but some of these teachers and administrators are, are, are tempted to, to, to push the kids out. If, uh, if, if these little black kids can't keep up, hell, I don't wanted teach them anyhow, so, uh,
I--I've got a chance now to punch them out. And I think that the00:35:00problem has got to be addressed. How do you get people who are willing to teach with compassion these folks? I, I, I, I don't know anything else to, to suggest. And--
JOHNSON: --pardon me, uh, we've got to watch black teachers because in order tomake the grade and, and, and keep up with them, with, with the general scheme of things, they might be just as rough on these little black students as the white teacher.
JOHNSON: Because they, they know that the supervisor is going to measure theblack teacher by the, uh, general scheme, uh, that operates for the white teacher. Now, if the white teachers have a pattern of, uh, washing 00:36:00out, then maybe--and this will be ironic--here comes the black teacher who is contributing to the dilemma of black people by helping to wash him out too.
HALL: Are you suggesting maybe, uh, some kind of affirmative action program forthe poor, uh, black children or at least black children from poor homes? Because, uh, the studies do show, don't they, that, that the lower test scores are made by children from poor homes whether they are white or black--
HALL: --isn't that true?
HALL: So it's an, it's an economic thing, isn't it, really--
JOHNSON: --uh, uh--
HALL: --as much as a racial thing since a disproportionate number of--
JOHNSON: --you, you see--
HALL: --the students--
JOHNSON: --you see, you see, when--
HALL: --are black (??)--
JOHNSON: --uh, when, when you put it like, uh, at least I see how serious theproblem is because here's a black kid who is fighting a factor as a 00:37:00result of the race and, uh, of economic, uh, inability. Now, from the economic point of view, he has the same difficulty that the, that the uh, uh white who comes from, uh, underprivileged, uh, circumstances, and he has that. Now, if you add to it, uh, another handicap, uh, his problem is, is compounded.
HALL: Um, we, we touched on this a long time ago--the fact that the black personhas to compete--(sighs)--using standard English, yet many black children here at home are substandard English just as many poor white children--
HALL: --here are substandard English.
HALL: And, and for both, this will be a handicap. Now, for the black00:38:00person, it's more of a handicap because more black children are from, uh, what you might call, semiliterate homes than the, the white children. Isn't this, this also a handicap?
HALL: Because language--
HALL: --is the thing that you wear all the time--
JOHNSON: --yeah, um--
HALL: --has to compete with what he learned (??).
JOHNSON: The, uh, the child who comes from, uh, one of the uh recent, recentlyarrived immigrant families and knows no English, that is a family of adults know--the families--the, the members know very little if any English. And when that child goes to the public school, uh, and has to--has to make all of his recitations in English, he is at a handicap. But I'm just--the, the, the point is when the black boy turns the corner and you are a block away, as 00:39:00soon as you see--when I say you, I mean the American, uh, ethic. As soon as they see you, they add this other factor, there comes a black man.
HALL: Well, yeah, you can't--
JOHNSON: --whether he--
JOHNSON: --whether speaks English or doesn't speak English.
JOHNSON: Now, when that, when that, uh, Italian or that Polish or that, uh--whatis a man from Yugoslavia? Yugoslavian?
HALL: Yugoslav, Yugoslav I think--(both laugh)--see (??).
JOHNSON: Yeah. I want to get both out of them in this house and, uh, and,and--yeah. Um when they come around the corner, you don't know. You don't really begin to throw roadblocks in his way until he begins to speak. 00:40:00
HALL: Right,. right.
JOHNSON: But the black man, you've already put a roadblock i-, in front of himbecause he's black.
JOHNSON: Now that's, that's an indictment. This--that this Americancivilization--now, I mean not American, it's United States. You see there, there's another of those hearty concoctions that we people in the United States, uh, have, have arrogated onto ourselves. We call ourselves Americans.
JOHNSON: Well, hell, the people down in Argentina are just as much Americans as,as, as the people in United States. The people in Brazil are, are, are Americans, but they have, they have propriety enough to say, "What, what, what my particular country is, is in addition to being an American is Brazilian"--
JOHNSON: --"or, or, or, or Chile." But here we are, we get over in Europe, and,and we make a big ado, what you--what are you? I'm an American? What are you? I'm an Argentinian. There's a difference. 00:41:00
HALL: But it's, it's hard to be, uh--to, to say that you are United States.
JOHNSON: Well, you ought to figure out some way to say it and, and--(Halllaughs)--quick. But that's what makes you, makes you hated by all the people around here, like here comes little, cocky, uh, son of a guns from the United States. And we just, we--we're just comfortable, uh, with the word American. The Canadians are just--they are just as white and just as blue-eyed and just as, uh, blonde as anybody else except, uh, those who are plain French, yeah, too much affinity with France. But, but in general, the, the, the people in Canada would pass just as much for, for Americans as we do.
JOHNSON: And when you get out, uh, they don't, they don't rear back and say,"I'm a, I'm an American." They say, "I'm a, I'm a Canadian."
JOHNSON: They're proud of their country. We, we act like we-- we're so00:42:00hard, (??) and we just take over the whole North and South America.
HALL: Yeah, the whole thing is bigger (??).
JOHNSON: Yeah, we just take the whole world.
HALL: (laughs). Everybody else has(??).
JOHNSON: Well, that's--
HALL: --that has been a sy-, that--that's a good symbol of the way we--theattitude we've taken toward the whole.
JOHNSON: Yeah. Now, uh, um, we, uh since, since, uh, 18-, 1850, we brought inquite a few Germans and uh Irish, but our main stock was mainly, uh, Anglo-Saxon and, uh, perhaps a few French. And then, uh, uh, after we went through some revision of our immigration laws, and that really didn't take place 00:43:00until about 1950. But beginning about 1920, we started letting in a few people from other parts of Europe from what the traditional United States attitude would, uh, would the call (??)--the, uh, whole white section of Europe, which would be the south and eastern part of Europe. Then we began to let in, uh, a few more Italians and, uh, a few Poles and a few Romanians and Turks, yeah, Greeks, all of that. Now well, they at least pass for white. Now, 00:44:00I'm, I'm not saying that the original stock relish these people coming in. But the fact they've gotten around to place where the, uh, people mainly from northwestern Europe who wanted to come had already come and could continue to fill up our country. We let, uh, these other, uh, up until that time, we sort of, uh, if not neglected, uh--pardon me, if not despised, then certainly neglected.
HALL: Or less desirable.
JOHNSON: Less-desirable southwestern European people come, and we try toassimilate them because, uh, at least, at least, they had, uh, white faces. But you didn't do that for the blacks. 00:45:00
HALL: But don't you think that given the differences, there's--because the blackpeople in this country have been speaking English for hundreds of years. This is their--this is, this is the black
man's native tongue so to speak. But because he was deprived of education, hewas never able to learn the standard language, so-called literary language--
JOHNSON: --that's right, that's right--
HALL: --to the point that the white people were. So that when you haveimmigrants, white immigrants from Europe coming over, they know immediately, they've got to--they don't know English, so the English that they learn in the school is the literary language, is the standard language. And here's the, here's the black man who's been over here speaking English for hundreds of years, but he's been speaking his own brand of English just, just like is--
JOHNSON: --what he picked up--
HALL: --just like white school--
JOHNSON: --what he picked up.
HALL: Um-hm. But is it--
JOHNSON: --what he picked up. He couldn't use any of his terms in, in, uh, Africa.
JOHNSON: He couldn't use any of his terms in Africa, and he had to pick up and,uh, had to pick up, uh, some of sort of a vehicle of, uh, the expression of thought to his master who is a white man. And he had to learn it to use something that represented an approach to an end (??). There's no question about that.
HALL: See, black people in America that's in America had been speaking Englishfor a lot longer than a, than, than a lot of American whites have been speaking English in terms of--
JOHNSON: --uh, what is that expression over in, uh, in, in France? The, the, uh,vernacular? Um, what you pick up, what you pick up is not classical language. 00:47:00
HALL: Oh, the vulgar tongue?
JOHNSON: Yeah. It is not the classical language what you pick up, but it'scertainly in the black people's, uh, uh, uh, relationship. What you pick up is, is a far thing from what they had when they were speaking Swahili or any of their other tribes.
JOHNSON: One of, one of the reasons I don't like, uh, when, when some of theblacks try to get me to go in for teaching Swahili, I said, "Well, uh, there are about a dozen different brands of Swahili." And when you get over there, maybe you only know the language of one tribe-- HALL: --yeah--
JOHNSON: --and that won't help you when you get to the next tribe. You're goingto have to--
JOHNSON: --pick up his brand of Swahili. Um, uh, I, I, I think, I00:48:00think the uh black people did of necessity a fairly good job of picking up on what they thought the white man meant when he said plow, cotton, work, uh, what--all these things.
HALL: Big house.
JOHNSON: Yeah--(Hall laughs)--big house. Uh, any, any of these things, it, itwas easy to pick it up than to be whipped.
JOHNSON: I told you to, bring me a plow, bring me, uh, uh, a hatchet, and youbrought me a, a saw, you dumb cluck, and get beat over the head for that, and then next time, he's going to, he's
going to try his best. He's going to his try his best to get whatever. Now, thatwas the teaching; that was the only teaching he had.
HALL: The black, the black man's English in this country is--it seems to methat, that is black, black English, if you want to say it--
HALL: --considered as a separate, separate from standard literary00:49:00English. Uh, it seems to me is a genuine folk language. It's a folk language, uh, in, in the sense that, uh, any dialect is a, is a folk language like Kachin (??), like cracker. Uh, you know, the language that I grew up with, the, the version of English that I grew up was not standard at all. It was not the English--not school English. It was a, it was a, it was a spoken, a folk, a folk language.
JOHNSON: Nobody knows that any better than I do. I told you that when I was akid, I lived out on the street. We were the only black people on that street. I went to school over in the Negro neighborhood. Only black people went to that school. So when, when I would go, some of the people in our, our family, some of the children actually were criticized when they went over there to 00:50:00the, to, uh--and, and associating with the, with the Negros. They said, "Oh, you talk like the, like the, like the crackers."
JOHNSON: And then we would, uh, come--
HALL: --but that, but, but, now that was not--the cracker English was notstandard English either (??).
JOHNSON: No, no--
HALL: --it was another dialect--
JOHNSON: --no, no, no, no, no. Uh, as a matter of fact, I've made fun of, of, ofthe fact that, uh, I--I've--
JOHNSON: --gotten away from it in--
JOHNSON: --in, in my last, uh, ten or fifteen years, twenty years. I, I've, I'vejust purposely tried to, to put it in the background. But really, I could, I could give you some of that, uh, poor white language so that you would think that--you would never, never suppose that I was a black. And then I, uh--
HALL: --(laughs)--do you have any examples of--
JOHNSON: --I, I, I associated--yes, I associated with, uh, some of the,uh--shall I use the word nicer? You, you do, you, you kind of guess 00:51:00what I mean by nicer white families?
JOHNSON: Uh, as a matter of fact, uh, I, I remember one of the nicer whitefamilies telling me and my brother Charles, "Now, if you--if we ever see you playing with those poor whites down in the, in, in the valley there, if we ever see you playing there, you don't, you don't come and eat at our table anymore. We, we don't let them come in our yard."
JOHNSON: "They don't even come in--they don't even come in our yard much less inour house. Now, you are sitting up here at our table, and we're, we're treating you like people because"--
JOHNSON: --"you, you, you, you, you, you, you and your, your, your family are,are, are cultured refined folk. Now you"--
HALL: --who told you that?
HALL: --the white people--
JOHNSON: --so--yeah, some of the white people--
HALL: --oh, I see, oh--
JOHNSON: --who, uh, who were considered--
HALL: --more educated--
JOHNSON: --the nicer people--
HALL: --um-hm, and--
JOHNSON: --and nicer. The, uh--they, they thought they were a better cut ofhumanity than, than those people down in the valley, down at the foot 00:52:00of the hill. Now, they had seen me playing baseball with them, and they--and she was, uh--the lady of the house was chiding me about it said, "Now, you can't play with them. You can't play with those, they're the--that's poor, white trash. Now, you don't play with them." Now, as a kid fifteen or fourteen years of age, hell, all I wanted to do is play baseball. And if I get out there with these, uh, crackers, and they were playing baseball, and they call themselves crackers, and, uh, and the, the, the black people call them those yaps.
JOHNSON: Yes. Uh, I wanted to play baseball and so I'd play with black boys, I'dplay with them, uh, the poor whites and, uh--and then I, I found this lady was sort of chiding me, "No, no, no, you--now, Lyman, you just--you, you must hold yourself above them now."
HALL: But what-- wasn't that unusual though for this, this white00:53:00family to treat you that way?
JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, sure.
HALL: Why would she have?
JOHNSON: Well, uh--(laughs)--I said she was nicer people, and she, she, she, uh,genuine in her way. She, she thought she was a cultured, refined, Southern person.
HALL: Can you tell me more about her, about the family that--
HALL: --you've just spoken about (??)?
JOHNSON: Well she--
HALL: --you can use a different name--
JOHNSON: --she, she didn't, uh, she didn't seem to get along too well with whitepeople because--even the upper-class white because she's just a little too liberal--
HALL: --that's what I thought--
JOHNSON: --just a little too liberal for a southern tradition. They, theupper-class whites, uh, used racism economically.
JOHNSON: It was, it was cheaper. And I, I think I've touched on this00:54:00before. It was cheaper to have hostility between the blacks and the whites at the--on, on the work--on, on the blue-collar level--
JOHNSON: --on, on the workman's level. Because--(clears throat)--you couldalways tell the white man, "I'll give you two dollars a day. Uh, because I, I--I'm not going to give you three dollars a day because I can get a black man to do just as good for one dollar a day."
JOHNSON: So it is economically feasible to always have the, the white man, the,the white worker under the--(Hall coughs)--under the, under the charitable hammer of, of, uh, being displaced by a black person. In the 00:55:00blacksmith shop, the blacksmith, the black blacksmith, blacksmith could do, uh--can--could, could shoe as many horses as the white man could. Now, when the--when the owner of the place begins to drive the white man, he says, "Well, I'll do more work if you pay me more." "No, I won't pay you another damn dime because I can get a black man to do it for half the price."
JOHNSON: And, and many other upper-class white people, I mean the, the--fromthis time, uh, using upper class meaning the, uh, more affluent, rich.
JOHNSON: They measured their profits on the basis of cheap labor, so the cheaperthe labor, the more the profits. And, uh, now, here was a, here was a woman who, uh, represented both money and, and raining and some degree of real, 00:56:00uh, appreciation of refinement and
so, uh, she appreciated the, the fact that my father was a college graduate. Shehadn't finished college, and her husband hadn't finished college, so she looked up to us.
HALL: Yeah. But, but you said, you said she had money.
JOHNSON: Oh yeah, she had money.
HALL: But did her husband work?
JOHNSON: Uh, owned quite a bit--
HALL: --I mean because--
JOHNSON: --owned quite a bit of property and, uh--
HALL: --so, so they--
JOHNSON: --and, and, now, here, here, here, here's the case where he--now,I'm--I keep talking about the, the refinement and the liberalism was(??)
JOHNSON: But she had married this, this fella, and, uh, she was nice looking.Oh, man she was, she was cute. I don't blame the man. If he had a chance to, to, to select a, a wife, he did a pretty good job. Uh, she selected him for his money, not for his culture and refinement.
JOHNSON: So, uh, I imagine he just, uh, said, "Well, I got to get00:57:00along with this nice pretty wife."
HALL: He just followed her.
JOHNSON: "And so, so I'm going to let her, uh, invite these two nigger boys inmy--" I imagine he called us niggers when, when we weren't, weren't around. But she, uh--he'd better not call us that in, in her presence.
HALL: Well, was she--I, I--this is--this is an area that we hadn't even touchedon, I think, the white liberals that lived or might have lived in Columbia. Were--was, was she the only white liberal that you can think of--
JOHNSON: --she's the only one I got, I got a chance to know.
HALL: Were there others--
JOHNSON: --now, there must be--there must have been some more people there, butit is, it is, uh, it is difficult to, uh, be an oddball and still maintain yourself in society.
JOHNSON: So, now, in order to maintain standing in the white00:58:00community, in any go-, in any, any group, but in, in this particular case, to maintain standing among those southern white so-called aristocracy, then you've got to go along. There are certain things, certain little, little things you just don't do. You just don't violate the code because if you do, you, you become an outcast. So she, she stayed just inside the ballpark and, uh, and certainly her husband did. Oh, he had a lot of money, and he had a lot of property, and he, uh--oh, he'd work the hell out of those poor whites. Uh, he'd work them just as hard as the be-, those blacks, and, and he'd scold them.
HALL: Did they have children?
JOHNSON: No, they didn't.
HALL: So, so, so you--so, so when she invited you and your brother over,uh, essentially you were a--like you, you were surrogate, uh, sons? 00:59:00
JOHNSON: Uh, to a large extent, yeah.
HALL: But, now, would she have invited--she invited other black children?
JOHNSON: No. Hmm.
HALL: But you because you were from an educated family?
JOHNSON: Educated family, and, uh, we were nice. With that, with that Papa ofours, we were afraid to let anybody white or black, uh, report that we were , were bad. Uh, we, we, we were nice.
HALL: Would she--but would she have been able--
JOHNSON: --and, and, and refined and cultured, and, uh, we, we, we knew, we,we've been taught that--even in the black community, we were taught the gen-, the gentility of good living. Although we were relatively--compared to white people, we were poor.
JOHNSON: But, uh, compared with the blacks, we were, we were way out01:00:00ahead of the rest of them. I--I'll, I'll have to admit that we'd gotten a jump on, on, on, on the(??).
And our ch-, our, our brothers and sisters, uh, had advantages that the ordinaryblacks didn't have. I agree, obviously, the fact someone has finished, had finished college, uh, and
that's--even, even, even, uh, when I was in the navy. I don't know whether I'vetold you about this time when the, when, when the, uh, the barber's son--
JOHNSON: --the--a barber in, in, in, in Columbia, he had a son, and he took uphair cutting. And when I walked into his shop out there in California, he made a big ado about how all the white people out in their neighborhood, how the parents said, "Why don't you be like those Johnson boys? Why don't you go on and finish school? Now, look, look, he's going to college. Why don't 01:01:00you--? You won't even go to high school."
JOHNSON: And he says, "I wish I had, I had done what my mother and father told me."
HALL: Don't you imagine the white people also used, uh, your family, uh, you andyour brothers and sisters as a kind of threat too to the, uh--to their white children and said, "If you don't watch out, these black people, well they're going to--you're going to be working for them. They're going--they stayed in school." Don't you imagine? I bet they did.
JOHNSON: I imagined that they--
HALL: --they're going to get ahead of you--
JOHNSON: --they, they--yeah, they, they could have said that. But on the otherhand, uh, if they'd said it, they grudgingly said it be-, because they--
HALL: --oh, sure--
JOHNSON: --they wanted it understood that as long as you are white, you arebetter than the nigger. No matter how far he goes in school or how much money he gets, he's still a nigger. Uh, that, that was, that was ground into us. Uh, what about that fella who came down selling watermelons and cantaloupes? 01:02:00He looked at my dad and said, called him uncle. Did I tell you about that?
JOHNSON: He called him uncle my--we bought--the family was so big, we bought acrate. We bought a dozen, or two dozen cantaloupes at the time.
JOHNSON: That's the way we, we, we had to feed our--
HALL: --from a vendor from the country?
JOHNSON: Yes. In those days, the, the, that--uh, A&P and Kroger hadn't, hadn't,hadn't been born yet.
HALL: --is not in Columbia? (laughs)
JOHNSON: Yeah, I, I--well no, I don't know what--
HALL: --A&P I think was--it was founded early in the century.
JOHNSON: Yeah, okay. Well, they, they, they hadn't, they hadn't begun to run thething. So every man brought his little produce to town to sell it, pedal it, and drive all over town, Cantaloupes, cantaloupes, beans, popcorn, peanuts, or whatever they had, they'd be selling it. HALL: Off their wagons?
JOHNSON: Yeah, off the wagon. So the man came down, and, and, uh, my01:03:00daddy was on the front porch, reading the paper. I was out in the yard playing, and, uh, a man came down saying, "Cantaloupes, cantaloupes, cantaloupes." And my father said, "Yes, I, I, think I'll, I'll take some." Well, uh, he said, "I, I got some from you, uh, last week, and they were very good, and I'd like to have some more." He said, "Well, yes, Uncle, we'll be glad to, glad to." And he said, "Oh, what now, oh, wait, just don't call me uncle. That I know of, I'm no kin to you. You're not my nephew." "Oh well, you--I know I'm no kin to you." And, uh, my father said, "Well, just don't call me uncle. Just, just everybody else calls me Johnson, just, just call me Johnson." He said, "Now, listen 01:04:00nigger, my parents--" This, this fellow was about twenty-one. He said, "My parents live out the highway, and they got a farm out there,
and"--(Hall coughs)--"and, and they have brought us and brought us up as, asthey think properly. They have taught us that when we get to town, and when we pass"--
[Pause in recording]
JOHNSON: --"the"--(Hall sneezes)--"never show you any disrespect because youhave culture and refinement, you have more education than, than my parents have, you own more property, you, you, you got better standing in the town than we have. And they told us never, never call you by your first name or just call you plain Johnson, call you uncle. Now, we're not going to call you mister, not going to call you-- your wife missus. We're going to call your wife 01:05:00auntie and call you uncle, and if you don't like--" my, my father said, "Well, just, just don't call me anything. Let's just go on and buy the cantaloupes. Let me buy the cantaloupes." He said, "No, nigger," and he pulled out a knife with a three-inch blade. And my uncle--I mean my father stepped around on the other side of way, and they chased each other back and forth around that wagon until finally my father got, uh, away from the wagon and jumped up in the yard. He came on in the house and got his gun.
JOHNSON: That fella said, "You're just a nigger. I don't care how much cultureand refinement and education and money you got, you're still a nigger, and I'll cut your guts out." And my daddy come in, came back out on the porch, and said, "Come in the yard, and you'll be a dead duck." Now, he wanted to buy 01:06:00the cantaloupes to feed his family, but all of that came out of the little idea, "Don't call me uncle, just call me Johnson." He said, "Nobody called me mister."
HALL: Hmm, that--
JOHNSON: --just, just called me uncle.
HALL: Well, and he brought, uh, cantaloupes or I guess watermelon and thingsfrom him before as you--
HALL: But, uh--
JOHNSON: --but this time, he just chased him off, and he wasn't feeling right,and he, and he called him uncle.
HALL: Yeah. You think, you think that this fella had called him uncle before?
JOHNSON: I don't know.
HALL: Maybe not.
JOHNSON: Maybe, maybe my, maybe my daddy just didn't have his, his evil hat onthat day.
HALL: Um-hm. (laughs)
JOHNSON: And I--but I just--I'm already young, I just squirming like everything.I didn't know anything. Shit, I(??) even could go out there and just try to, try to take that knife
away from the fella. I just, oh, and I just--and when my daddy came back out onthe porch with a pistol, boy, I, I kind of got down under the tree, 01:07:00not, not on the other side. Like I'd dug a hole in the ground and ran.
HALL: So, so what happened? Did, did the fellow just finally left?
JOHNSON: Yeah, he'd gone done. He said, he said, "The old nigger!" Well--
HALL: --did you know if he ever stopped there again to sell?
JOHNSON: No, no, I don't know.
HALL: Well, um, that's--
JOHNSON: --so as far as I'm concerned, that's the end of that story. I don'tknow what--
HALL: --the-, the-, there were black vendors, weren't they, uh, who would, uh--
JOHNSON: --eh, very--
JOHNSON: --very few.
JOHNSON: --you see most of the, most of the people who had all that kind ofstuff for sale were white people. Most of the Negroes would stay on the farm and work for a dollar a day to produce too--the, the thing.
HALL: And the white man would sell the stuff?
JOHNSON: White man would sell it and then, then the poor Negro works six toseven days a week to get seven dollars for it. Now, if he knew how much those cantaloupes were bringing in, maybe he would go on strike. Can you 01:08:00imagine such a thing? (laughs) They'd, they'd--
JOHNSON: --unionize and go on strike and say, "Give us some of that profit."
JOHNSON: But no, you, you get the black man to work for a dollar a day,seventy-five cents a day in some case--
JOHNSON: --seventy-five cents a day.
HALL: But, you see, a dollar would've been a, would've been a good, a good wagein the--
JOHNSON: --a dollar--
HALL: --in the twenties--
JOHNSON: --and a quarter was good pay. Yes, I, I, I remember those days.
HALL: What, what are some of the other, uh, kinds of produce that were sold fromthe wagons?
JOHNSON: Oh, corn, beans--
HALL: --well, what did you--
HALL: --what--did you-all call it corn or roasting ears?
JOHNSON: Roasting ears, same thing.
HALL: Roasting ears usually?
JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.
HALL: That's what we'd call it. Peas?
JOHNSON: Uh, uh, peas.
HALL: What kinds of peas, do you know?
JOHNSON: Oh, garden, uh, what they call English peas.
HALL: English peas(??)
JOHNSON: --green, green peas.
HALL: Green peas. Any other kind of field peas?
JOHNSON: Oh, no I don't know, no.
HALL: You-all, did you-all eat field peas like, uh, black-eyed peas or--01:09:00
JOHNSON: --yeah, I believe--
JOHNSON: --yeah, I believe, uh, sometimes in the wintertime, we'd go down to thestore and buy some dried.
HALL: Um-hm. But, but you didn't eat these field peas so much?
HALL: You didn't. Well now, white people did.
JOHNSON: I know it.
HALL: But you-all didn't?
HALL: You didn't like it?
JOHNSON: Didn't like it, didn't--no, we, we just--I, I guess we didn't likethem. Uh, we, we, we could eat them, and, uh, we did eat them, and, and we enjoyed them, uh, but generally, uh, we, we saved. Uh, we had so many gardens ourselves.
HALL: Yeah, that's--yeah.
JOHNSON: And, and so we had, uh, so much, so much, uh, uh, veg-, so manyvegetables that we didn't, uh, we didn't have to buy much of anything. Now, we didn't raise, raise watermelons and cantaloupes, so then we went to market for those things.
HALL: You buy those?
JOHNSON: But, uh, roasting ears and, uh, and green peas, collards, all kinds ofgreens, uh, we, we raised them ourselves. Tomatoes, oh, we just ate 01:10:00tomatoes, galore. Uh, we just had everything--
JOHNSON: --everything except cantaloupes and watermelons.
HALL: Now, another subject, have you, have you been a lifelong Democrat? Haveyou always been a Democrat?
JOHNSON: I was born into a Republican, a staunch Republican outfit, and when Ivoted for Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933, I had--1932, I had to kind of apologize to my father and my uncle--(Hall laughs)--for turning my back on Herbert Hoover. They were staunch Republicans. HALL: Why, why, why were they Republicans?
JOHNSON: When I had to apologize, they told me, right, "Yes, yes, son, but don'tforget now, don't forget, you turned your back on the party that 01:11:00freed you." I said, "Papa and Uncle, you and your generation had paid back the Republicans, and, uh, the Republicans can't help me now. "
HALL: The Republican Party, you think it turned its back on you--
JOHNSON: --yes sir--
HALL: --in a sense?
JOHNSON: Yes sir.
HALL: When, when did that happen, do you think, in the twenties--
HALL: --will you say or--
JOHNSON: --1876, the Republican Party wanted the presidency so badly, they letthe South have control of the poor whites and the Negroes.
HALL: The Tilden-Hayes election?
HALL: That's when the Republicans--
JOHNSON: --that's right--
HALL: --and the party turned its back on blacks?
JOHNSON: Turned its back. They had, they had done a good job of01:12:00freeing and seeing that the freed people were taken care of somehow. It was a terrible situation if you can imagine. Here is the white upper class, uh, therefore, the ruling class of people who had been impoverished and humiliated and put practically in chains, economic chains to the big money, uh, financial magnets of uh Philadelphia, New York, and Boston. Now, the Republicans had, had pulled the upper-class whites down, as I said, almost to 01:13:00poverty, and, uh, here were the black people, four million of them just turned out. And the, and the white people said, "Now, they freed you, now get off my ground, just get out in the street." Well, that was a hell of a, of a thing to pull together. How, how do you--who, who's, who, who should pull the things together so people can, can get along? Now, there were some Republicans who, who saw to it that, that--Charles Sumner and that bunch, uh, Thaddeus Stevens. Uh, some of those fellows did a pretty good job of trying to see that you don't completely, uh, humiliate the upper-class whites. But at the same 01:14:00time, you must be sure that you don't, uh, let these upper-class whites who are now still the owners of the ground but who don't have any capital, fluid capital with which to operate the ground.
JOHNSON: Don't let them take these freed people that we've just turned looseand, and bring them back on the plantation and work them for nothing.
JOHNSON: Now, how, how do you, how do you work this thing out? Now, up until'76, uh, the--there was a, a segment of the Republican outfit that sort of monitored the thing to keep, uh, those southern legislators from pla-, passing what they called the black code, which was to say that if you are 01:15:00caught, uh, as a vagrant, you can be sent to the penitentiary. And at the penitentiary, uh, you get out there and, uh, and then one of these uh impoverished, uh, white, uh, ex-plantation owner, slave owners can come to the penitentiary, and, and take you out and work you for six months free of charge practically.
HALL: Isn't this now a new form of slavery?
JOHNSON: Yeah. Now, in '76--(Hall clears throat)--a bargain was made. Most, mosthistorians don't like to refer to it as a bargain. But there's some sort of a trade made by which the north would have control of railroads, tariffs, and, uh, and, and, and banking loans. And if anybody in Birmingham, Atlanta, 01:16:00or Memphis, or Houston, Texas, wanted to borrow some money, you can go to New York and borrow it. Uh, let's just say, uh, I borrow it at 6 percent interest and then go, take it back down there in the, in the South and lend it out, sub-lend it at 8 percent interest.
JOHNSON: Now, the--to the poor people white or black in the South, they lookedup to this man who had all the money to lend who was making about 2 percent. (Hall coughs) The man who's really making the, the, the, the, the kill on the money that was loaned is, is, is the people, uh, up there in, uh, in these big banking concerns in, in the, in the east. So really, as, as, as I
said, uh, as I write into my little history book, uh, the Civil War really wasfought to colonize the South just like England had colonized the 01:17:00thirteen colonies.
JOHNSON: Now, England is, is out of the way, and we'll take over, and we'll be,we'll be the mother country.
HALL: With our own colonies that -----------(??)--.
JOHNSON: And, and, and, and anytime, anytime the banker from Birmingham wantssome money, let him do like he makes the poor white and the Negro do when he comes into the bank down at Birmingham. When you come to New York, come to Chase National Bank, you take your hat off, and you stay out--you stay out until we call you, and when we motion you, you, you damn bastard, you come on in here, and I'll lend you some money at a high rate of interest.
Now, you go and squeeze the poor people down South to make yours over above ourhigh rate of interest.
JOHNSON: Now, that is when--as, as, as I make the distinction in time, '76, thewhole setup was turned back to the southern legislators, southern 01:18:00state, uh, city councils, and the mayors and the governors said, "Glory, hallelujah, we're back in control again."
JOHNSON: And that is when, uh, uh, they, they started turning the clock back,uh, past all, all sort of thing like the grandfather clause--
JOHNSON: --if you, if your, if your grandfather didn't vote, you can't vote--
JOHNSON: --all that kind of business.
HALL: But, now, this was only agreed to by the north because it benefited the north--
JOHNSON: --oh, sure, sure--
HALL: --and your vision to say--
JOHNSON: --sure, sure, yeah--
HALL: --it was, uh, it was not really done to benefit the southern white--
HALL: --necessarily. It only because--
JOHNSON: --which was a money-making, a money-making proposition. You see, look,I, I said railroads, sure railroad. You, you--if, if you go back and, and study the whole railroad history, nearly every railroad in this country, just like Rome, all railroads lead to New York City or Boston or Philadelphia, everything-- 01:19:00
HALL: or Chicago.
JOHNSON: --railroad. Tariffs, we'll put sufficient tariffs on anything made sothat it won't compete with our shoes and clothing and whatnot made up in Boston.
JOHNSON: High tariffs, that's the Republican Party.
JOHNSON: High tariffs, control of the railroads, and control of the, of, of thebanking concerns, and you let us have on--them and you, you can, you can, you can have the, the poor whites and Neg-, Negroes anywhere you want to and, and, that is when the situation just
got--I--they, they just turns the, the, the tide right back almost to, uh, todays of slavery. The poor white, the poor white couldn't rise but so high, because you could always have this cheap supply of black labor as a 01:20:00threat to any poor white who won't behave--won't be-, belittle himself in the presence of those upper-class people.
HALL: Who were your first, uh--who in your family was the first vote, do you know?
JOHNSON: Oh, my grandfather. Back in those, in those days, he had a ce-, I, Ihave, I had a certificate around here where he, uh, showed that he was a licensed, uh, into--, voter, my grandfather, after the Civil War was over.
HALL: That's Dower (??)--that's Dyer Johnson.
JOHNSON: Dyer Johnson, he could vote.
HALL: He was a registered--well, he was Republican, was he?
JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah.
HALL: He's a registered Republican?
JOHNSON: Oh yeah, you know, and my goodness, uh, that's, that's where all this,uh, stuff come from that I, I tell you about my father saying that I turned my back on the party.
JOHNSON: You see, uh, one of the things against the Republican Party01:21:00is that, uh, they had the soldiers--the Union soldiers stayed in--were, were kept in the South to make these white people of the South not put those slaves back--those ex-slaves back in slavery. And one of the things that's, uh, written up in the history book that, uh, is sort of, uh, uh--is, is very critical of the uh Union soldiers is that on election day, the history book says they rounded up these blacks and boarded them in wagons all around from polling place to polling place to vote. I think they are stretching it just a little bit. But on the other hand, I'm quite sure, I'm quite sure that if they hadn't had 01:22:00the Union soldiers there, the southern whites would not have let the blacks vote. So, to a certain extent, uh, it is, it is true, it is justified to say that the Union soldiers protected the blacks in their attempt to vote.
JOHNSON: But now, whether they herded them around from poll to poll, I thinkyou're just stretching it a little bit, but maybe they did. I--knowing politics as, as, as, as well as I do, I know, uh, in--after the southern people got in control of things, they did allow--in South Carolina, in Georgia, and in several other places, they did allow Negroes to vote provided they voted for the white--for the right white person, and that was in the Democratic Party.
HALL: Well, because when I was a child, I don't think any black01:23:00people in my county voted, they, they need -----------(??)---------- Republican. But, uh, the black people just simply did not vote, so your family--
HALL: --was, was an exception again--
JOHNSON: --yeah, well--
HALL:(??) out of--
JOHNSON: --well but, uh, but, uh--
JOHNSON: --but don't, don't forget now, don't forget, uh--it's, it's, it'sasking a black
person--you're asking a little too much for him to go up to vote, and, uh, theperson who is, who is, uh, the recorder or the person, the, the officer at the polling place--
JOHNSON: --the clerk at the polling place has a pistol lock (??), and so, andhe'll look up at you and said, "Uh, nigger how's a, uh, uh--what about the corn crop, uh, does, does it need plowing today? Uh, you don't have time to vote, do you? Uh, don't you, don't you think you better go off and be plowing 01:24:00in, in the field?" and looked down at that pistol. And when you think about half a dozen people have been lynched already, uh, in, in your presences, uh, in and about your community, uh, you said, "Well, hell, if I--even if I vote, there, there are two white people running" and so he says, "Well, what does it profit me? Both of them are against me, so I won't vote for either one." And, uh, did you ever hear the tale of the college professor, a young fella down at Talladega College who went down to vote? Put on some overalls down in Alabama -----------(??). He put on some overalls and, um, not, not exactly dirty, but they've been washed and washed and washed and--I don't know a jumper. They were clean, but they showed that they've been, uh--all, all the blue almost have been scrubbed out of it. And he came stumbling up to the place to vote, 01:25:00and he said--the, the, the clerk said, "What you want, nigger?" He said, "I just, I just wants to votes." "Well, nigger, uh, we
know--we, we--you can't, you can't vote here unless you can recite theConstitution of the United
States." "Well, mister white folks, you, you, you--" and in his broken English,he said--you know, how colored folks, "Why, why do you make--do you, do you make, uh, white people recite that?" He said, "Yeah, you got to recite the Constitution of the United States. If you can't, can't do that, you 01:26:00can't vote." So the Negro professor squared himself and in precise English said, "Three score and seven years ago, our forefathers brought forth on this const-, on this continent, a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men
are created equal," so forth, and so on, and so on. And the white man said,"Nigger, you know, you're the first one who's ever been up here and able to recite the constitution from beginning to end, you, you go on and vote."
HALL: (laughs) He played a joke on him, didn't he? (laughs)
JOHNSON: Now, in Florida--
HALL: --did you know this man who told you?01:27:00
JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This um--(clears throat)--this, uh,situation in Florida, they used to have pistols on the table, and, and Negro, Negro knew that they have used those pistols. Negroes--
HALL: --because the grandfather clause had also kept to--
HALL: --uh, just, just disqualified too?
JOHNSON: Poll tax.
HALL: And the poll tax. Well the kid, you know the Alabama kid with the(??)--
JOHNSON: --yeah, I know it. I'm just fixing to say, "You miss nigger, you got topay the poll tax. Now, how old are you?" "I'm fifty-two years of age." "Well, nigger, did you have- did you--did you pay the poll tax last?" "No, no sir, no, sir, I ne-, I never paid the poll tax." "All right, now twenty-one on fifty-two, that leaves thirty-one. You owe thirty-one dollars." No, no, no, 01:28:00what, what is the worth(??) thirty-one dollars, and I, I still got to
vote for one of you two white folks? Un-huh. You go ahead and fight it out."And, and many Negroes would teach their children, "Now don't get, don't get, uh, don't, don't, uh, don't, don't raise any Cain around here now. Just go on about your business. That's white folks' business."
JOHNSON: "That's white folks' business."
HALL: Did your father ever vote Democratic, do you think before--
JOHNSON: --no sir.
HALL: Never did?
JOHNSON: No sir.
HALL: Did your uncle?
JOHNSON: No sir.
HALL: They always voted Republican?
JOHNSON: When my uncle was eighty-six years of age, he went to the NationalRepublican Party. I think they met in Chicago. He went to the National Republican Party, paid his own expenses. The, the Republican Party down in Tennessee wanted to pay--wanted to send him as a delegate, and he 01:29:00says, "I want to go as a delegate, but I don't want you to give me a damn dime. I want to be independent." So he--
HALL: --what is that? What, uh, which, which, which, uh, convention that wouldbe on, in the, what, forties, thirties?
JOHNSON: It, it had to be--let's see, he died at, uh--he died ninety-two. No, hedied in 1955, and he was, uh, eighty years old, eighty, eighty-six. Let me see, six from '95 would be nine, nine from, uh, '55 would be about--it, it was about, uh, '44 election.
HALL: Yeah. The Dewey, is it Dewey?
JOHNSON: That's right. Well, by a(??) by, by a quick little, uh,01:30:00recapitulation there, I, I guess it would be the '44 convention.
JOHNSON: He went to Chicago. I do remember now, it was, uh, that. I was in GreatLakes, and I went over to see him. I was at Great Lakes in the navy, and he was over there in Chicago.
HALL: As a delegate from Tennessee?
JOHNSON: Yeah. But he came--he had always paid his own expenses, and he'd goneto the national--the local Convention, but he wanted to be independent even in the--he, he wanted to be independent of the southern Republicans.
JOHNSON: He--when he got up there, he wanted to be a National Republican. Hedidn't want to be a southerner--
JOHNSON: --because even, even the southern Republicans were01:31:00just--they, they, they, they were second cousins to southern Democrats.
HALL: They were becoming even more so, weren't they? I mean--
HALL: --southern Republicans, of course are very conservative.
JOHNSON: Oh, and Southern republicans now are wasting--(??). They are, they arein--take the name Connally out there in Texas. Uh, he, he found that the Republican--I mean the Democratic Party was getting too, too liberal, and he couldn't stand them. Yes.
HALL: So, so most black people today are Democrats because they, they hadchanged parties, and the fact the black man has changed parties.
JOHNSON: Uh, Roosevelt, Roosevelt changed them, and the Republicans have beentrying to get them back. But, uh, every time the Republicans get somebody like, um, uh, Wendell Willkie, every time the Republicans get somebody like that, the, the, the Republicans close in on him and freeze him out. 01:32:00
JOHNSON: And, uh, and when they, when, when they freeze out a, a liberalRepublican, they freeze out the black vote. Now, they, the Republicans have been trying their best to get the blacks back into the Republican poll. But frankly, again, uh, reflecting on, on my brand of, uh, economics and history, frankly, the Republican Party is a party of the big boys, the rich, and the Negro is a representative of the poor boys. There is no real affinity between the black masses and the Republican Party. 01:33:00
HALL: Well, that--
JOHNSON: --that is--
JOHNSON: --uh, educationally, economically. Any way you take it, there is noaffinity except that they need each other.
HALL: How do you explain someone like Senator Brooke? Why would he come in a Republican?
JOHNSON: I guess it's purely politics, purely pol-, politics. Uh, uh, it, it wasa Republican state, and if you go, uh--if you, if you go anywhere, you, you, you've got to, uh, you've got to be
one of the boys. So he was, uh, he was quite a capable fella, uh, on his way up,and, uh, uh, he had a knack for politics, and he played the political game. And, uh, that's, that's the only way I can explain it.
HALL: When did you register to vote? Was it in Columbia when you were01:34:00a young man?
JOHNSON: Uh, yes.
HALL: I can remember the first time you registered--
HALL: --to vote.
JOHNSON: Um, I, I voted, uh, in Columbia, paid my poll tax, a registered voter,and voted Republicans. I voted for--in, in '28 for, who was it, Coolidge?
JOHNSON: No, that was, that was Hoover.
JOHNSON: --that's Hoover--
HALL: --you voted for Hoover?
JOHNSON: I voted for, uh--he wasn't--I voted Repub-, I voted Republican Partytwo times, '24.
HALL: Right. In '24 and '28.
JOHNSON: Twenty-four and '28
HALL: And then you voted for then Eisenhower--I mean, then, uh, uh, Roosevelt--
HALL: --converted you in effect?
JOHNSON: Oh yeah.
HALL: And you voted for Democrat since.
JOHNSON: And, and, and, uh, in '32, in '32, uh, the conditions were in such a,such a fix that, uh, that the poor people had no business over there 01:35:00with, with the big boys. You see, Hoover, Hoover admitted, Hoover admitted that he should not have signed the--what is the name of that treaty? Hawley--Smoot's Tariff bill. A thousand first-rate economists across the country advised Mr. Hoover, and by '28 or '29, '28 perhaps, don't sign, don't, don't, don't, don't go along with that Haw-, Hawley--Smoot's Tariff.
HALL: That was protective tariff, wasn't it?
JOHNSON: Highest protective tariff we've had. And they said, "If you do it,you'll bring the whole works down on us." They signed it, put it into operation, and the De-, Depression started in '29. The big boys were in control. 01:36:00Economic, uh, uh, wizards were in control.
And Hoover was so tied in with the Republican Party, and the Republican Partywas the, was, was the spokesman for this, uh, financial interest. And, uh, Hoover, Hoover knew better, but he was a victim of his own party and had to be, uh, a, a part-, uh--according to party discipline, he had to go along what the party wanted.
HALL: When, when did big business capture the Republican Party? In the eighties, nineties?
JOHNSON: Oh, uh--
HALL: --the Robber Barons?
JOHNSON: Um, I expect, uh, I expect. Uh, you see, the Republican Party startedwith Abraham Lincoln--
HALL: --well, a little before--
JOHNSON: --uh, in 18-, 1854, 1854 up in Illinois somewhere.01:37:00
HALL: Uh, Wisconsin, uh--
HALL: --Ripon, Wiscon--
JOHNSON: --Ripon, Wisconsin. All right. Now, uh, I think, I think as, as I, sortof, uh, maybe fantasize, I think my idea of, uh, political parties as I used to teach, there'll always be two parties in this country. And one will be the party of the rich boys, and the other, the party of those who are not rich 01:38:00but would like to be sooner or later. The rich boys will be few, and the others will be many. But the many would be uneducated to a large extent, unsophisticated, and the few will be. Now, the few will make up for brains, with, with brains. And so I get back to the very beginning of our country with Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson who represented a different type, but Alexander Hamilton represented a class so far as the economic, uh, situation is concerned. Now, all the way through, we've had the making of the Republican Party.
JOHNSON: Because, uh, you can trace, you can trace right straight back, uh--(Hall
sneezes)--from Nixon right on down to Hoover and Teddy Roosevelt. You01:39:00can trace right on down--(Hall sneezes)--to the very beginning, uh, with, uh, Alexander Hamilton. So they, uh--the answer to your question is I, I think they had the makings of economic control all along. Even the--when, when the Republican Party is called Republicans, uh, beginning in, uh, Ripon in 1854, uh, they already were here under some other name. They went--
JOHNSON: --by Know Nothings for quite a white.
HALL: But, but, but the Republican Party that we know today was started in 18-,the 1850s as a very radical party, wasn't it? Wasn't it very radical? Right? And certainly, certainly in, in relation to the, uh, slavery, it was radical, right?
HALL: --it may have been economically--
JOHNSON: --yeah, yeah--
HALL: --accepted, I don't know that--
JOHNSON: --well you, you see, the way I look at it, uh, how can you,01:40:00how can you break, how can you break the backs of slave -----------(??)? You see, that was a big battle going on, uh, economic and, and cultural battle going on, uh, long before the Civil War. Slavery was going west from South Carolina and Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi. When they got to the Mississippi River, they came up the river, Arkansas, Missouri, and they were going out toward, uh, Nebraska, Kansas--Kansas and Nebraska.
JOHNSON: And, and, and coming across from the north was the opposite01:41:00force, free labor. White people who had to work for a living did not want to compete with slave labor. So, now, if you don't, if you don't head off this slavocracy that's coming up the Mississippi River, taking over to Missouri and then Kansas and Nebraska. Well, from then on out to--if we ever take to the Pacific Ocean, it'll all be slavery.
JOHNSON: So then, you got to stop. Now, you can call it radical in, in point of view--
HALL: --I see--
JOHNSON: --being kind to the black people, but that, that, that, that doesn't--
JOHNSON: --that doesn't fool me.
JOHNSON: I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not looking at, at how nice they are tothe black people. I'm looking at how, how nice they are to the working-class white people who want honestly to work for a decent living. And they 01:42:00cannot compete with slaves, and they see all across the South, why are the poor whites so poor? It's because they've been pushed up in the mountains, up in the hills. The hillbillies, they've been pushed up. They can't come down in the valley and work in the real rich fertile soil because the upper-class white people own that.
JOHNSON: And the cheapest labor that they can get is slave labor. So there's noplace for the white man to work. Therefore, he goes further and further up the hill to the poorest and poorest of ground. The rich ground is right down the valley--in the valley about, about the side of the river.
HALL: So you're saying the people who organized the Republican Party inWisconsin-saw that, uh, uh, slavery as a threat, as an economic threat, and that they were not as concerned morally about slavery? 01:43:00
JOHNSON: I won't (??)--
HALL: --I guess you would sometimes--
JOHNSON: --I, I--Abraham Lincoln, uh, has, has not fooled me the least. (Halllaughs) He says and, and, and too many--not, well, I won't say too many, but I'll say great bunch of black people talk about Abraham Lincoln being down in New Orleans, and he looked up and saw how mean they treated the slaves, and he said, "If I ever--" he's quoted as saying--
JOHNSON: --"If I ever get a chance to hit the thing, I'll hit it a hard lick."And when he got to be president, obviously, he hit it a hard lick. But I come back real quick, I said, "But quote the man all the way through," and he, says at another time by, when he--just before he hit it a hard lick, he says, "If I can save the union by freeing all slaves, I'll free them all. Freeing some of them, I'll free some and not others." Or "If I can save the union 01:44:00without freeing a single state, I won't touch them."
HALL: Well, that's true.
JOHNSON: Now, was--(Hall clears throat)--Abraham Lincoln working hardest forwhat I've just mentioned--the honest white man who is willing to work and work hard for a living, but he will not--he does not want to work for starvation wages. And as long as slavery existed, the poor white could not get even starvation wages, and Abraham Lincoln came from the poor white trash of Kentucky, and he knew what it was.
HALL: He knew what it was, that's right.
JOHNSON: He knew what it was to be--
HALL: --I think so--
JOHNSON: --prevented from working at a reasonable wage because slave labor andall you've got to furnish the slave is a little wholesome but the 01:45:00cheapest and crudest of food and a, and a little hut down there.
JOHNSON: Now, that's all, and, and you've got to just be sure that the slavegets enough wholesome food and make him sleep and make him take his rest so that he can work, uh, work all day tomorrow for nothing. Now, the white man says, "I can't work for nothing." And no, even the black man today can't work for nothing. Nobody can work for nothing, uh, as cheap as, as, as they could, uh, have all this slave labor, and, and no question about it, uh, the poor whites. Uh, sometimes, I get so, uh, sympathetic for the poor whites of the South that some of them--I just irk the hell out of some of my black friends. 01:46:00They said, "Lyman, for god's sake, do something about these black folk."
JOHNSON: "And let these damn white folk alone. Quit worrying about them. They'rewhite, and they, they can get a bowl of -----------(??) and go places if they want to. But, but the black man got to, got to, uh, move out so many of these things like, uh, race prejudice." But I said, "Frankly, even in slavery, the black man, and he caught hell, he got whipped, he got beat." But when the white man ate, the black man ate. When the white man--upper-class white man ate, the black man ate, poor white didn't eat. He got skinny, he got--he was really demoralized. He was, he was culturally deprived, economically 01:47:00deprived, educationally deprived, physically, morally deprived. Actually, the thing--even as late as the thirties, the thing that slaves, the poor whites--you see, uh, in, in, uh, after slavery, uh, that I talked on, on this business
of, uh, economics thing, the--that you have this great reservoir of black peoplewho work for a dollar less. That means a white man still doesn't get a job even in freedom.
HALL: That's right.
JOHNSON: The thing that saved the black--I mean the, the poor whites in thehills of Appalachia and, uh, and wherever other conditions were like that, uh, in Georgia and Alabama and Mississippi--the two things that saved the 01:48:00poor whites in this country were the radios and the automobiles. Automobiles made highways, and highways just splashed right back and forth right in front of some these poor white neighborhoods. And they began to see, look here, uh, I wonder where, uh, where is that going by there? There goes civilization. Turn on a little twenty-five or, uh, well wait, uh, ten or fifteen-dollar radio box, and you could hear music and, and lectures, and whatnot from outside. And these people had--that was the only cultural, uh, advantage they had even as late as the thirties but--
HALL: Or the forties, or the forties.
JOHNSON: That's right. But it was beginning, it was beginning to, to breakthrough their lack of culture, lack of civilization. They didn't know what, they didn't know what it's all about.
They didn't, they didn't go to school.
JOHNSON: --and they breed among themselves, uh, you know the, the incest, andeverything else up there in those hills.
HALL: Now, also, the, the, the, the highways and little--and their little, cheapbroken-down cars that they had got them out of the hills into--
JOHNSON: --well, when the highway came--
JOHNSON: --by--when the highway came right through their little sections, andthey could come through the highway, and their eyes began to open. And then they began to get the little wagons--
JOHNSON: --the little, uh, trucks and, and jalopies. And, and then they couldbranch out of those hill, out of those hallows. Some of them hadn't been out of, out of their little neighborhoods in, in all their lives.
JOHNSON: They didn't know what civilization was. And, and, and as I said, it wasthe radio and the, uh, and the, and the highway--
HALL: --the highway. Yet, in a sense then--
JOHNSON: --that's saved them.
HALL: In a sense, slavery left the poor white at a greater01:50:00disadvantage than it did the, the--than it did the black person.
JOHNSON: Oh, yeah I think--
HALL: --the only thing the black--the only thing the white person had to hisadvantage was his skin.
JOHNSON: That's all.
HALL: That was all.
JOHNSON: That's right.
HALL: But he was in much poorer health. I agree with you--
JOHNSON: --I don't know about (??)--
HALL: --much poor health than the white--than the black people.
JOHNSON: The black man could, uh, could go out in the yard, and, uh, we, we tellthis joke. Uh, white people tell it and then black people tell it too, at least I do. The, the, the, the, the, the slave could go out in the yard and take a big sledgehammer and just crack one of those big sows, a nice, nice, pretty big fat pig, you know. (Hall coughs) So crack him in the head and then come in just as, just as innocently as anything, "Master Charlie, Master Charlie, you know what, that damned old mule, you know, he ain't got no sense at all. You know what he did? He done kicked, done kicked the old poor pig in the head. He's 01:51:00lying out there dead right now down in the yard." (Hall laughs) And, and, and, and Master Charlie says, "Sam, you sure the mule killed him?" "Yes, sir. Yes, sir, I saw him, I saw him. He got and kicked him right in the head." He said, "Is it dead?" "Yeah." (Hall laughs) "Well, Sam, I, I don't know, I don't know. But I tell you what, do you suppose you could go out, and, and before it, before it begins to spoil, can you suppose you can go out and, and dress him and kind of cook him up and have a little barbecue and call in the rest of the slaves?" "Yes, sir, Master Charlie. I, I--of course, I"--
HALL: --I'm full (??).
JOHNSON: --he, he's dead now, but, uh, but I guess I can go out there and canfix him up real
quick. Hell, the damn pigs -----------(??)--."
HALL: (laughs). Right.
JOHNSON: "Right, everybody get right now, but they're afraid to have01:52:00the damn barbecue till the, till Ma-, Master Charlie know it." And, and then as he goes out the door,
Master Charlie says, "You know, that damned nigger thinks he's fooling me? Yeah,he--I, I know, I know he killed it."
HALL: It doesn't matter. He's going to get this meat though, isn't he? Theslaves will get the meat?
JOHNSON: And, and the poor white--
HALL: --the poor white--
JOHNSON: --is up there--
HALL: --eating dirt--
JOHNSON: --just skin--
HALL: --eating dirt--
JOHNSON: --eating dirt!
HALL: Yeah. You, do you know--
JOHNSON: --down in South Carolina, they were, they were known as dirt eaters.
HALL: Dirt eaters, right.
JOHNSON: They were- there was--
JOHNSON: --a craving--nature was craving for something like vitamins and all that.
JOHNSON: And the black people could--by, by telling all such tales like that.And, and Master Charlie said, "Well, hell, if that keeps them satisfied," and I'll work the hell out of them tomorrow. I'll get, I'll get the value of the, of the pig out of them tomorrow. I'll work the hell out of them tomorrow. Let them go on have a good time. Yeah, call them all in, just 01:53:00
to--just, just, just have a big barbecue and just, just, just enjoy yourself."And, uh, "Yeah, yeah, Master Charlie, Master Charlie, that old mean, that mean old mule." "Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, Sam, quit talking about, quit talking about that damn mule. I know, I know he is bad." Chickens, eggs, milk, butter--
JOHNSON: --what? Man, let, let me tell you. And, and, and the people upthere--another expression that comes along, the poor whites had hogs so skinny that they were called what?
JOHNSON: Even the ground up there where they were wouldn't produce any food.They would go out and plant a little corn, and, and they'd have nubbins (??). You ever hear of nubbins?
JOHNSON: In the, in the poor white cornfield, nubbins is about three inches longor two inches long with about four or five greens on one side and 01:54:00none on the other. Down in the valley in that rich fertile soil, ears that long.
JOHNSON: And, and, and, and the black man had roasting ears all the time.
HALL: Sure. He wasn't going to starve with that, all that, all that corn around him.
JOHNSON: No. He--at least he, he was always fat and greasy.
HALL: Yeah. And, and even the hard work was good for him too, um--
HALL: --be-, because that the white field (??)--
JOHNSON: --and, and a certain amount of discipline was, was good for him.
JOHNSON: Now, don't--damn it, don't you get drunk. If you do, I'm going to beatthe hell out of you. Well, now which is the better, get drunk and get beat or don't get drunk--
JOHNSON: --and don't get beat. Well, that, that--and don't get drunk, that'sgood for your health. Uh, all these food you got, that's good for you. All this exercise, that's good for you. Uh, now, I don't want you carousing too much now, you, you go, I want, uh--aft-, after a certain time, I want everybody quiet down in, in the quarters. I want you quiet, quit running around. If you 01:55:00haven't got anything else to do, go to bed. Good sleep.
HALL: Yes. What--it's that, isn't it (??)?
JOHNSON: That were bene--
HALL: --that's right.
JOHNSON: Uh, what is it? Compensating factors.
HALL: Right. Like a stable of athletes you know, they, they had to, had to bekept in good health--
HALL: --to, to, to run the race.
JOHNSON: Then another thing, uh, some of the blacks don't like,(??) to dwell toomuch on this. But I say that was another thing that, uh--another sobering factor that had a tendency to keep from beating these slaves too much. They were property. A real good, first-grade slave would bring from 1300 to 2000 or $2500. And when a person--these, these slave owners had to always gamble on 01:56:00whether they were winning or losing. Another one, a little thing I used to say is that uh I felt sorry for the poor or for the--even the slave owner because they have--I've been showing my sympathies for the, for the poor white. Now I'm ge-, uh, getting up to a place where I get sympathetic for the slave owner because he always bought, uh, bought some more, more land to, to plant cotton, and they always brought too much and then they'd have to go out and buy. All the, all the cash money now that he got left over at the end of year, instead of spending it and having a good time going to England or going to Italy or, or going somewhere to have a good time blowing it in instead of blowing it in property--he had too much land, and he'd go buy more slaves.
JOHNSON: And then damn it, he wouldn't--he wouldn't just get enough slaves. He'dbuy too many slaves then he had to buy more land. He bought more land, more slaves, more land, more slaves, and he never got a chance to really 01:57:00enjoy his--but he's always gambling. What if, what if I can't get more slaves? And I got, I, I get land--what they call land poll.
HALL: Land poll?
JOHNSON: Yeah. Uh, and, and then I--I've get to pay all my profit now oninterest on this borrowed money that I got for buying the land. I got the land, again, I don't have any damn niggers to run it, and, and here, I can't make my profit, and, and, and, and the interest is eating me up. He--he's always gambling on that. Now, uh, uh, the sympathy that I have for the, for the,
for the white people, well, they were always squeezing out a little--just, just,just enough to buy even more slaves and more, more land. 01:58:00
JOHNSON: And, uh, and, and, and then the, the poor wife, she, uh, she would justsit up there in that nice, uh, big house and just wondering, when is this going to pay off? Got all this family all around me, and yet here I am, I'm a prisoner within, within the con-, the confines of this one house.
JOHNSON: There is nobody I can associate with. Who--where can, where can,uh--where can I have some sort of society, some sort of social con--
HALL: --you mean the white, the white, the white missis?
JOHNSON: Yeah, sure. A, a, a big party that will all give about, uh, say it wassix weeks. The next, the next plantation is so far down maybe ten miles, fifteen miles down the way, and in those days the transportation, it was, uh, 01:59:00it was difficult to get across there. And no telephone and no radios, uh, I don't know. I imagine it was a, it was a miserable fix to be on.
HALL: You're suggesting that then it was a rather arid existence for--
JOHNSON: --I just, I just imagine it--
HALL: --the plantation owners?
JOHNSON: Yes, I just imagine it was, i-, it was stultifying.
HALL: Um-hm. Um, and, of course, the, the slave owners also always worriedabout, uh, some plague, uh--
HALL: --uh, like you, you could lose--you'd be wiped out with--by the cholera,which was a burden. It was a big problem in the--
JOHNSON: --if, if, uh--
HALL: --twenties and thirties--
JOHNSON: --if you--if the, if the slave owner got pushed economically, he wantedto reach out on a farm and bring in a slave, one of those top slaves and sell it. He can afford to sell one, sell two, sell three. But no matter 02:00:00how hard-pressed he was if he brought up a slave who had scars all over his back, all over his head, just like a mule, nobody wants to buy a mule that shows that he was such a damn bad mule that the last owner had to bust his brains out to get him to work. So then, every scar on a slave cut his sale price. Now, say, many, many, many Negroes, uh, like for me to show how, how vicious and mean and cruel slavery was. But when I think about it, if I had-- if I had a 02:01:00mule, I would try my best to keep anybody who use that mule from putting scars on it.
JOHNSON: And I imagine, many of these white people told those cruel slavedrivers, those overseers--they were the mean ones, they were the mean people. They didn't own the slave, but, uh, but the slave owner and the plantation owner drove the slave driver to produce, and to produce, he used the whip. Now, if you put scars on, on one of those slaves, it didn't hurt his body. It might make the man work hard. But I imagine the master would come around and say, "Now, look, if you're going to mistreat, if you're, if you're going to put scars 02:02:00on my, on my folk, you've got to go because you're, you're hurting my--in the gamble, you're hurting my ace in the hole. I got all these slaves, I can, I can unload one or two at a time and, and, and kind
of keep myself above the tide. But if, if, if everyone has scars on them, thenyou, you--you're cutting me out of my, my--you know?"
HALL: The slave probably also had better medical attention than the poor white--
JOHNSON: --yeah, that's--
HALL: --because they had to--
JOHNSON: --because it has value--
HALL: --they had to--
HALL: And you know the old, the stereotype of old missis going down to the quarters--
HALL: --and that ministry. Well, she had to, to protect her, protect herinvestment, didn't she?
[Pause in recording.]
HALL: We were, we're--we were talking about the, uh--well, the, the fact that, Iguess, everybody involved in slavery was a victim the--from the owners to the slaves to the poor whites. The whole system--
HALL: --victimized everybody, didn't they?
JOHNSON: Uh, in, in, in short, in short, uh--let's, let's just, let's02:03:00just get economic for a minute. There is no substitute for free labor. Whether you're a slave or a white person or a poor white or upper-class white, free labor is, is the most economical in a civilized society-- HALL: --um-hm--
JOHNSON: --free labor and, uh, and, uh, I agree, I agree with Abraham Lincoln. Iagree with him in trying to establish a free labor society. I, I have serious, uh, apprehensions about what he would've done had he lived. Had he 02:04:00lived, having won the war, having freed the slaves, I, I wonder how genuine was his motive in freeing the slave. Was it to rid the country of cheap labor so that the honest, hardworking citizen could get sufficient pay to maintain himself in a free economy? Um, would he have gone as far as Lyndon Johnson and keep the blacks here, or would he have sent the blacks back to Africa 02:05:00or somewhere, some, someway?
HALL: Did he support the colonization movement?
JOHNSON: I--he didn't--
HALL: --or, do you think he would have?
JOHNSON: I don't. Now, that's my apprehension. I just--I'm, I'm, I'm trying mybest to find out why was he so interested in freeing slaves. Having--I've, I've, I've almost worked that out. It was to free the slaves to keep slave labor from competing with free labor. I, I worked that out.
JOHNSON: But now, the, the slave is black, and still, as we have seen infreedom, there was the wage scale differential. Even as a schoolteacher here, uh, I, I worked for less than white teachers.
JOHNSON: Uh, even in my day and even in the--when, when slavery wiped02:06:00out, uh--I, I can't help but remember the lady who--in, in, in my hometown who worked at the bank. The white woman worked at the bank for a dollar and a quarter a day. She put in nine hours at the bank, a dollar and a quarter a day. And hire a black woman to do her housework for
seventy-five cents a day. Now, the white--the black woman put in more time thanthe white woman did. She did more work than the white woman did, more actual physical labor and got fifty cents less. So the lady says, "Ha, look 02:07:00it's easier to work for me at the bank as a teller. It's, uh--I, I don't--I don't have to wash, I don't have to iron, I don't have to cook." In those days, uh, quite often, whoever did the cooking had to go out in the yard and, and cut some wood to go in the wood stove to cook. And, uh, this, uh, this Negro woman had to do that, and she had to take care of the children and do all that kind of stuff and, uh, clean the house and all that and still, uh, get fifty cents less.
JOHNSON: Now, she i-, she just enjoyed the idea that, uh, it, it is profitableto her--
JOHNSON: --even in the sense of just just fifty cent, she made a profit. Um,I'm, I'm not so sure what Lincoln would've done with, with the black people.
HALL: Do you think the black person could've been better off if he'd02:08:00gone back to Africa, the American? Have you ever thought about that?
JOHNSON: Yes, I have, I have thought about that. The first thing is--the firstthing after--
HALL: --of course, he wasn't in, he wasn't in Africa then as--
JOHNSON: --after he'd been in this country, after generations in this country,where in the hell are you going to send him?
JOHNSON: What part of Africa?
JOHNSON: It would've been, it would've been excruciating to drop a man down in,uh, in the wrong tribe.
HALL: He didn't even know--
JOHNSON: --and then after--
HALL: --the language--
JOHNSON: --and then after having gotten all messed blood wise, uh, with the,with the, uh, white people who or white men who would, uh--slept in the cabins with the black women, uh, to send a person--
[Pause in recording.]
JOHNSON: --to Africa. Uh, it's, it's difficult to find out what tribe02:09:00a black came from. In the slave raids the, uh, the, the, the procuring of slaves was a, uh, almost a, a continental affair. A slave from one tribe, and another one from another one, and another one from another, and
then--and as the uh, as the caravan passed on through, and they'd pick up slavesall along the way on the, on the slave route to the shore. Uh, they all didn't come from the same place. But when they got over here in, in, in the Caribbean Islands, and, uh, the West Indies, uh, they, they, they were meshed 02:10:00into one group. And, as we've already spoken about it, uh, they were practically forbidden to bring in their tribal languages, and, and, and, and uh, forced to pick up on English, or Spanish, or Portuguese, whatever it was over here. In our section it was mainly English. Now, when you give up your tribal language, and you come from a half a dozen different tribes in the first place, and then two or three generations later, and then you're mixed in with a bunch of, uh, whites, and you're not all black, you're brown, and yellow, and all sorts of olive color, and every, every kind of a color. Uh, first, first consideration I have for those people who says we should send them back to Africa is, uh, what a cruel situation you'd be doing. It'd be just as bad as say, uh, supposed the blacks got in control of the United States and said, we're going to send all white folk back to Europe, and, uh, and, and not, not give a damn of 02:11:00taking somebody who came from France, and dropping them right down in the middle of Germany. And somebody who came from Germany, and dropping them right down in the middle of Italy. And somebody from Italy, and drop--just because he's white you're going to send him to Europe? Well, that's cruel. Well, some of those people, uh, even, even uh, I expect some of the people in Northern, uh, uh, Northern France, uh, sort of, uh, have reservations about mixing too much with people in Southern France. And I know in Spain thereabout is a half of dozen different, different, different Spainians. Now you going to send somebody back to Europe just because, just because he's white. And it, it's just as asinine as to talk about, uh, sending somebody back to Europe, as it would be to talk about sending somebody back to Africa. You don't know who he is, nor where he is, nor where he came from. And, and those people down there in Africa right to this day will tell us blacks from the United States, now, you can come and 02:12:00visit us if you have some technological, uh, advice to give us, uh, come on, but uh, remember you're a--first of all, you're a foreigner. You're not, you're not a Nigerian. You're not a, a Senegalese. You are an American.
HALL: Cause, cause the, uh, the idea was to plant a colony.
JOHNSON: Well, we tried, we tried that in, uh, in Liberia.
HALL: Did, did it not work?
JOHNSON: Not, not, not successfully.
HALL: But still it existed, so it's--
JOHNSON: --you see, first of all, you've got to push out. You got, you got to dothe same thing they did in Israel.
HALL: Yeah, that's true.
JOHNSON: Uh, people, uh, some of the, some, some of the, uh, friends of Israel,and some of the Jews don't like for me to say this, but I think the English did a cruel thing when they reached down there in Israel with their 02:13:00bulldozers, and just scraped out all the people from the center of a place, and dropped in all these despised people from Europe.
HALL: Israel, the Israelis.
JOHNSON: And I add to it, just a little for irony sake, I said that, that, thatthe meanness of this whole thing was that England did not want the Jews in England. The French didn't want them in France. And the United States didn't want them in the United States. But we all got together and scraped the Arabs, and the Muslims, and everybody else, just scraped them back. And, and leveled, just, just like you do for a subdivision when you scrape down the trees and everything, and then all of the sudden up springs a, a nice little, uh, uh, suburban, uh, shopping center, and so forth, and so on. That's what we did over there. Now you'd have to do the same thing, that's what we did, 02:14:00that's what we did for Liberia. We pushed all the natives out, and said now we--this is a nice place, this is a nice place, got a good, uh, harbor, and, and Monrovia, we'll name it for President Monroe, and, uh, Liberia name it for, for the word freedom. And, uh, we'd just make an example all the blacks that, uh, we want to get rid of, we'll send back here, and we'll free them, and then send them back here. And dammit they, uh, they got over there and made slaves out of the people who--blacks had slaves over in Liberia.
HALL: Did they really? I didn't know that.
JOHNSON: Yes, indeed.
HALL: Well, they learned it from America, from the Americans. (laughs)
JOHNSON: They taught them how to have slaves.
HALL: Cause they didn't need to be taught too much. I didn't realize if they, ifthey had, they had slaves.
JOHNSON: United Nations, uh, moved in on them and said, no, no, no, you peoplegot to, got to do better than that now. And put pressure on--United 02:15:00Nations--League of Nations?
HALL: League of Nations.
JOHNSON: League of Nations. League of Nations put pressure on the United Statesto put pressure on, on, on Liberia, Firestone who had a big, uh, concession down there in the rubber business, all of them got together and said, now look, uh, Mr. President, you're a president like we got a president in the United States. Now, Mr. President, you got to tell your people to lighten up, and get rid of these slaves real quick before, uh, before we bring in, and make, make like a scandal out of it.
HALL: You mean, you mean there were slaves in Liberia in this century?
JOHNSON: Black people had slaves, yeah.
HALL: In this century?
JOHNSON: Yeah. League of Nations broke it up.
HALL: Lyman, let's stop now. Could, could we spend most of the rest of our timefocusing on your activities in Louisville? Uh, next time, if you don't mind, we could--I'd like to just to talk about your coming to Louisville, the 02:16:00conditions that the community--we--sorry.
[End of interview.]