Interview with Erven Williams, April 18, 2016

MUMMERT: --Uh--the following is an oral history interview conducted as part of the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) Retirees' Association Oral History Pilot Project. The person being interviewed is Erven Williams.[1] Mr. Williams is a retiree of the Tennessee Valley Authority. He worked at the Tennessee Valley Authority for 35 ½ years between May 1972 and December 2007. He is being interviewed by Philip Mummert as part of the Pilot Oral History Project. The interview location is the Tennessee Valley U--Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Monday, the April 18th 2016. --Uh--the interview is now beginning. Well, good morning, Erven. And--uh--let's begin, I would like to ask you, if you 00:01:00don't mind--uh--letting me know what the circumstances were that lead to your being employed at the TVA?

WILLIAMS: Well, I was a student at Tuskegee Institute, now called Tuskegee University. And their recruiter was there, and they were recruiting engineers and others. And so I was not on the interview list, so I came up to the recruiter and said--uh--: "Are you looking for any economists or math majors"? And he took my name down and he took it back to Tom Ripley, who was the Manager of the Forest, Fisheries and Wildlife Development, and they called me 00:02:00for an interview. And I went for the interview, and I had about n--ten job offers out of college, but this was the only job offer that I had in the South. And I wanted to stay in the South, and so that's what led me to come to TVA.

MUMMERT: I see. Interesting, and--uh--the--and--you grew up in--uh--Alabama is that true--or?

WILLIAMS: I grew up in Pensacola, Florida. Pensacola, Florida.

MUMMERT: Pensacola, that's right. --Uh--to begin--uh--going into your career at TVA, could you just give a thumbnail sketch of your 35 years and the different kinds of jobs you had and then we'll dive a little bit more deeply 00:03:00into each one of them?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, well, I started out as an economist in Forest, Fisheries and Wildlife Development. I was in that for two years, and then Tom Ripley made an offer to me to become the Supervisor of Planning and Budgeting for Forest, Fisheries and Wildlife Development. I stayed in that for about five years, and then I was offered a job as the M--Manager of Budget and Planning for Tributary Area Development (OTAD). And that was very interesting, that was a promotion. And s--and it was in Knoxville, not in Norris, and so I decided to take that. From there, I--I worked in that job for about three years, and then I 00:04:00became involved with, I guess, Maurice Masarsa. And he had a job--they were starting a new organization, and they had a job in Dam Safety. And they offered me a project specialist job in Dam Safety and primarily being responsible for the budgeting for Dam Safety and then doing some ins--bridge inspections. So, TVA sent me off to school at--uh--I went to George Washington 00:05:00University to learn more about bridge safety. From there, I went over to, there was a reorganization, a new organization was created and I went over to Water Management. And in Water Management, I also was involved in some budgeting, but then I was put in the program primarily designed for quality. So I was in the--became--uh--one of the quality managers. And basically, I was teaching tools and techniques for quality, and I also w--became one of TVA's representative for the Tennessee Quality Award, going out and looking 00:06:00at different companies. There was again, another reorganization, and I was in Water Management. And I became a project manager in--in an organization that was primarily responsible for projects around TVA dams. And for--I spent ten years of my career developing the warning systems around TVA dams.

MUMMERT: So--uh--it looks to me like you had about four or 00:07:00five--uh--careers at TVA.

WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes, I did.

MUMMERT: Well, let's begin--uh--right at the beginning Forest, Fisheries and Wildlife. --Uh--explain to me what that is? --What did that involve? You were a--a budget officer, is that right or in Planning and Budget. For a--and was TVA's business in--in Forest, Fisheries and Wildlife?

WILLIAMS: For a couple--for a couple of years there but--but.-- Well, TVA used to work with the forest industry, and they also were involved with wildlife development around TVA lands. And in terms of TVA also--had in terms of we had forest industries in the Valley, and TVA had what they--what you called--they surveyed--they did an annual survey basically to determine how much 00:08:00wood and the type woods that was used and gathered out of the forest. Because here you know, we have furniture industries, we also have housing that use wood, we have other kind of industry. We have paper mills that use wood. And so part of our r--responsibility was conservation. In terms, we wanted to maintain the forest. We did not want to overuse it. So what we did, was we measured how much was used and so forth and what was the economic value of that to the Valley.

MUMMERT: So, in your job, what did you do?

WILLIAMS: In--in my job, I r--went out, gathered information in terms of how much wood was used, the type wood was used and determine how--what 00:09:00the impact--the economic impact it had on the Valley.

MUMMERT: So you would do this--uh--every year or just continually--uh--keep up with that?

WILLIAMS: It--it was--well, it was done every year at one time, and then we developed a technique in terms of sampling. Because, we determined that we could look at several and dama--several businesses, and so forth, and--and it would give us a real count as to the total use. We did not have to do a 100 percent survey. At one time we did a 100 percent survey of all the forest industries within TVA valley, the Tennessee Valley area.

MUMMERT: Now, I thought that that would be something the--uh--Forest 00:10:00Service or the--maybe the state would do. --Uh--was TVA doing something that was--uh--duplicating what the--uh--states were doing or was it doing--uh--?

WILLIAMS: Well, they--t--t--we were doing it basic for the Tennessee Valley area. The other states do it basically for the state, but it's not subset--we're not a subset, because the Tennessee Valley is in seven states, as you know.

MUMMERT: So the--uh--and so it's more a regional perspective that you gained?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

MUMMERT: Forestry, Fisheries and Wildlife, did you get involved with the fishing, or fisheries and wildlife, how?

WILLIAMS: Well-well, I got involved with fisheries a little bit 00:11:00from--from my--from the budgeting standpoint and looking at the project that came in because we also did sampling, you know, they did sampling there. And we--as a--as an organization we used to get funding for that. And we got funding several ways, we got appropriated funds, and then we also got funding through certain power sources, we had certain power funds that were also a part of that.

MUMMERT: What were appropriated funds, when you say appropriated?

WILLIAMS: Appropriated funds, those were funds that came from the United States Government. Comes from the treasury.

MUMMERT: Oh, I see. The--um--how would you budget then for fisheries and--and wildlife?

WILLIAMS: H--How did we budget for that? Well, what happened is, we had projects, and different managers and--and specialists in that area 00:12:00would basically submit projects. And we would basically look in terms to determine basically how much it was going to cost to do those projects, how much manpower was needed, w--how much equipment was needed, and then we'd develop a budget for that. And we submitted those budget items.

MUMMERT: Do you--uh--remember what types of projects you had to budget for, just as an example?

WILLIAMS: Well, as an example--um--they used to do what you call a--a census in terms of how many fish was in the water, I mean, you know, what was the population of fish in the water, you know it--it.

MUMMERT: How in the world do you do that?

WILLIAMS: They--they called it I--I think they called it a "creel" 00:13:00census is what they used to do.

MUMMERT: A what?

WILLIAMS: A creel, I think that's the word they used. Census, where they do--.

MUMMERT: How do you spell that? You don't know.

WILLIAMS: I don't know.

MUMMERT: Okay, but anyway--uh--you had these different projects, and some of them were wildlife and some of them were fish, and you were the guy that needed to develop a budget.

WILLIAMS: We develop a bud--yes. That--that we developed a budget for it based on the information that they provided, we develop a budget for it. And we also had to do a justification for it because they had to compete against projects from other areas.

MUMMERT: From other areas of the Tennessee Valley? Or from other--?

WILLIAMS: From other areas of the Tennessee Valley as well as other parts of government.

MUMMERT: Oh, I see. So there was--uh--for some of these types of 00:14:00projects there was only a certain amount of money available that--uh--Congress would appropriate? Okay.

WILLIAMS: Exactly. Yes, and in some cases there were some projects that had to have mixed funding. So, you had a funding that were appropriated and then you had a funding that came from our power company, also.

MUMMERT: Did you ever have to tell the TVA people that were the technical people that they were--uh--asking too much?

WILLIAMS: Yes, we did.

MUMMERT: Oh, that was part of your job.

WILLIAMS: That was part--that was part of the job.

MUMMERT: The--um--are--is there anything else you'd like to say about the--uh--forestry and the first phase of your--your TVA career before we move on to the next one?

WILLIAMS: Well, I think that's good.

MUMMERT: OK. So, we move on. You s--you mentioned something about your--uh--your--uh--next job when you got promoted was in something called Tributary Area Development.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

MUMMERT: Could you explain to me about what that--what that was?

WILLIAMS: Well, that was a project where we used to go out and work with different communities for development to determine basic what was needed in those communities. And we had representatives out across the Valley in different communities working with those communities to determine what TVA could do to assist them. Ins--we had little things like--uh--some areas did not have fire departments, so Tributary Area Development helped to develop fire 00:16:00departments in--th--volunteer fire departments in those areas. We helped them in terms of getting funding for vehicles. And we also helped them in terms of getting people in there to help them develop those things.

MUMMERT: So this was in the 70s, and there were communities that didn't have fire protection?

WILLIAMS: Yes it was.

MUMMERT: And there were communities that didn't have fire protection?

WILLIAMS: Exactly, and TVA assisted with that.

MUMMERT: Were these--these were primarily small--uh--rural communities?

WILLIAMS: Primarily small, rural areas, yes.

MUMMERT: That must have been a great--uh--benefit or a--I'd say a plus for those communities.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it was, yes.

MUMMERT: Because, what would have happened I guess if TVA hadn't been there? They just would this have gone on like this for a long time?

WILLIAMS: A long time without any f--fire protection. And so you know, we got started a lot of volunteer fire departments within the Tennessee 00:17:00Valley, and they're all funded--t--they're self-funded within those little communities.

MUMMERT: Now, when you were working in the--uh--Tributary Area Development, did you, yourself focus on the fire protection or did you--uh--work with a particular--uh--group of communities or did you do more of the budgeting a lot for the different activities?

WILLIAMS: I did more--more of the--more of the budgeting for the--the activities in those areas.

MUMMERT: What kinds of activities were there in addition to fire--uh--protection?

WILLIAMS: Well, in addition to that--uh--just one example, I always think about BVI (Bicentennial Volunteer Incorporated). When you think about Bicentennial volunteer incorporated, that was started out as a TAD project.

MUMMERT: You'll have to explain more about that. How--why was that--uh--important?

WILLIAMS: Well, it was--im--it was important because that was the celebration for TVA at the time, and they needed volunteers to do that.

MUMMERT: Oh, I see.

WILLIAMS: So, Tributary Area Development developed a plan to--to do that.

MUMMERT: And the volunteers were TVA people or?

WILLIAMS: The volunteers were TVA retirees primarily. There were some people who were not. There were a few people who were not, but they were TVA supporters who also volunteered, but most of them were TVA retirees.

MUMMERT: And that came out of--uh--Tributary Area Development?

WILLIAMS: That came out of Tributary Area Development. --Uh--we also worked with a lot of--uh--communities in terms of th--things such as--uh--when you look at Tributary Area Development, water supply that might be needed within 00:19:00the communities. So, you had a lot of the small dams that were developed in these communities which started out on--as a part of Tributary Area Development in terms of water supply and so forth.

MUMMERT: Did the--did the--I want to go back to the Bicentennial volunteers. Did they do things for the communities as well?

WILLIAMS: No, no. It was strictly that at the time, when I was there. It was strictly for the--the TVA celebration.

MUMMERT: But, Bi--Bicentennial volunteers--uh--in years to come, has turned out to be really quite a--uh--big volunteer organization of TVA retirees.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it has.

MUMMERT: Uh-- did Tributary Area Development do work all over the 00:20:00Tennessee Valley or just in certain parts of it? --Uh--was it mostly a rural-oriented program or did it get involved in urban areas as well?

WILLIAMS: It was mostly a rural- rural areas, mostly. --Um--there were--um--and we had representatives all across the Valley in Alabama, we had some in--uh--Virginia, Tennessee, and so forth. But we were h--representative all over the Valley.

MUMMERT: And m--in--in most cases--uh--working with these communities, they were very open and receptive for--for TVA's assistance or?

WILLIAMS: Yes, they--they-- very much so, very much so. And they 00:21:00also--um--like I said, in terms of some communities needing water supply. So, some of your dams--small dams and this sort of thing were developed primarily with the work of the representative of Tributary Area Development and the--the people and then the technical people at TVA.

MUMMERT: OK, the--uh--so you worked--uh--in Tributary Area Development you said for how many?

WILLIAMS: About four years.

MUMMERT: About four years. And then after that, you moved to dam safety?

WILLIAMS: I--I moved to Water Management. Yes---. No, excuse me, I moved Minority Economic Development after that.

MUMMERT: Oh, we missed that earlier, okay. Well, tell me about that.

WILLIAMS: Well, I went from Minority Economic Development, and--and 00:22:00part of that was to help--um--minorities--communities get some kind of business development primarily is what we were doing. --Um--we also had what we called a fund that we dev--called--that we developed that we called, and it was primarily--uh--we called it MIF, Minority Investment Form. And TVA employees used to contribute money to this fund. And then would basically use that fund to loan to minority businesses that wanted to--to get started.

MUMMERT: But TVA employees would contribute?

WILLIAMS: Yes. TVA employees.

MUMMERT: That's interesting. Did many--uh--TVA employees contribute?

WILLIAMS: Quite--quite a few TVA employees contributed. It doesn't 00:23:00exist anymore, it was closed down. But--but it was something that got some minority businesses started in the Valley. It was very, very instrumental.

MUMMERT: So in--in what ways were those funds used?

WILLIAMS: Those funds basic were used to start a business, basically what they were used for. And because in some--in some cases they needed s--some cash on hand, you know some start-up money, they needed. And we used to--uh--we--we did that--uh--we loaned that money, but here again we also, in most cases had to have some sort of collateral. And we also did it through the banks. What we did--we didn't basically just give them the money, we had a way. We 00:24:00went through the bank. And what we would do basically was put the money in the bank in a bond of some kind. And they would put it in the bank, and we backed them with that fund. We would--we'd put the collateral down for them to get the loan from the bank through that fund.

MUMMERT: I--uh--I expect that this was during a time period when it would have been very difficult for some people in the minority community that wanted be--to start businesses to get that kind of help.

WILLIAMS: Exactly.

MUMMERT: So TVA was filling a very--.

WILLIAMS: Filling a void--TVA was filling a void there.

MUMMERT: But, as you said--uh--it was important they didn't go around the banks. They were kind of educating the banks in the process.

WILLIAMS: Yes, exactly. So, it got to be that that it wasn't needed any more.

MUMMERT: How long did that fund last?

WILLIAMS: --Uh--it went for about 10 years.

MUMMERT: And so you were--uh--any interesting stories about particular--uh--businesses that you may have been involved with or?

WILLIAMS: Well, I can't, well I--I was not--uh--I don't know exactly now--uh--in terms of what the business was and that sort of thing. I can't--uh--I can't recall that at this point.

MUMMERT: Did you deal with the businesses directly yourself or you?

WILLIAMS: No, no, no, no. I didn't, I did not deal with them.

MUMMERT: You had more of an administrative role?

WILLIAMS: I had more of an administrative role, yes.

MUMMERT: Okay and--uh--well, that then--uh-- was another one of your 00:26:00careers. --Uh--so then after that you got into dam safety.

WILLIAMS: After that I got into dam safety.

MUMMERT: And so this is in the big part of TVA, water, the group that probably runs the dams and the water and the?

WILLIAMS: Well, we--we in terms of in water management, yes. And but we're responsible for the structural integrity of the dam, was basically our responsibility.

MUMMERT: What--uh--what are the--the structural integrity, what other dam or safety issues are there with dams that you had to be aware of?

WILLIAMS: Well, you also had to be aware of releases, too, in terms of people downstream from the dams. You had to be aware of that. You also had to be aware of the gates operating properly because you had to protect in terms 00:27:00of floo--they had to be available in terms of releasing water in case of flooding. So, that was part of our responsibility. We were also responsible for the structure integrity of the--the--um--locks too at the dams.

MUMMERT: And so when you were in--uh--or became part of the dam safety effort, what did your job entail?

WILLIAMS: My job entailed, at the time--it was two phases. Part of it basically was in terms of the budgeting for projects that were needed for--for the dams. And then it involved in terms of--um-- I went---had to go get and some 00:28:00training in terms of bridge inspections. So we had what we called a "Bridge Over Dam Program." Most dams have a bridge over them, and so I got involved in that as well.

MUMMERT: Did--uh--TVA have--uh--bridge inspections going on before that time? You were just--uh--being trained to take on the mantle?

WILLIAMS: Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. I--I just was being trained to--to do certain things, yes. But, yes we did have a bridge inspections going on, we always have.

MUMMERT: So what did you do personally with that information, knowing about bridge inspection? Did you actually inspect bridges yourself or?

WILLIAMS: No, but I was able to look in terms of the information that came in and in terms of what was necessary to--to better--get a better handle 00:29:00in terms of the budgeting and so forth for those particular projects.

MUMMERT: That seems to me--uh--to be somewhat unique too to have someone with your job role being trained so you can better able to review the work of the engineers, I guess, and the inspectors. I never thought of that angle. How many bridges--uh--did TVA have? You don't have to give me an exact number, but were--uh--many many or?

WILLIAMS: Well, I would say that--uh--um--at the time probably about 25 to 30 because we had s--everal at Land Between the Lakes, as well.

MUMMERT: Land Between the Lakes is in Western Kentucky, right?

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, and TVA--though that came under the TVA's bridge program.

MUMMERT: Now, did you also deal with bridges that crossed--uh--a TVA reservoir or maybe the Tennessee River where there was not a dam?

WILLIAMS: N--not if they state, state--if they were a state road, no. O--only those that were TVA's responsibility.

MUMMERT: Okay, or U.S. highways?

WILLIAMS: They--if they were U.S. highways, it's their responsibility. Only on--the only ones we were responsible for were TVA dams, TVA dams and--and TVA bridges that were on TVA properties.

MUMMERT: So TVA--uh--though did--uh-- inspect, diagnose problems on 00:31:00bridges and then have to maintain and fix those bridges, just like state highway departments would on others?

WILLIAMS: Yes, yes, yes, yes they did. As a matter of fact, we even bought at the time a bridge inspection vehicle that went underneath the road--underneath the bridge to check on it. It was a bridge inspection vehicle that was purchased, and I think at the time for around $500,000 for that vehicle.

MUMMERT: It's a vehicle you want to make sure you take care of.

WILLIAMS: Exactly.

MUMMERT: The--um--so you stayed in water after--you worked in dam safety. --And um--that means that and--and from your perspective, you had to take a 00:32:00look at what was being proposed to maintain safety around a dam in all aspects. And so you kind of developed a plan and budgeting for that and coordinated people.

WILLIAMS: Exactly. Right. And then I branched off from the budgeting, and got out of the budgeting. And then I was basically in--uh--a project manager for a program that's basically responsible for the--all the signage--the safety signage around TVA dams. I also responsible for developing a proposal for the warning systems that are at TVA dams right now.

MUMMERT: Erven, that sounds like a very important job to me.

WILLIAMS: That was very important and it was--and it was a very 00:33:00interesting job because at the time, we had a committee. And that committee--uh--uh--consisted of engineers from--um--the various programs in TVA. It also included the TVA attorneys and included people in Water Management. And we met to discuss it and so forth in terms of how we were going to implement that. And because at the time, there used to be a rule in terms of people thought that we did not want to put a warning system because that would make us more liable should the warning system fail. But that was sort of--that notion was sort of thrown out the door because, here again, when we put the warning system in, it was not put a single warning system, it was redundant. 00:34:00We had to make sure we had redundancy for the warning system. So that was not just one of anything for that warning system. There was at least two.

MUMMERT: That's why you had an attorney on your team.

WILLIAMS: Exactly.

MUMMERT: Anything else you'd like to say about dam safety? Are there any stories or? Was the--the state--the state of the dams, and their structural integrity were probably just fine in those days. --Uh--what they were 20, 30 years old?

WILLIAMS: Yes, but we had some f--had some failures, and it happened during the Carter ad--during the Carter Administration. Some kids got killed in Georgia, and that's when during the Carter Administration, they made federal 00:35:00agencies and others go back and look at all their dams. And we used to go--uh--meet in Washington with the Corps of Engineers, with the Department of Agriculture and others who had dams. And we all planned it together in terms of how we could do things better around dams. And we talked about it, we worked with other federal agencies in this project.

MUMMERT: Was--uh--dam safety a--a new thing at that time, or was it really--uh--something that what--had it was evolving and getting better?

WILLIAMS: It was--it was f--. Yeah, it was fairly new because we--at the time before, we did not really have a dam safety program. We had--it was a part of the regular engineering.

MUMMERT: OK.

WILLIAMS: And then they spun it off after the federal guidelines came out for dam safety, then this became a new program. And they put more emphasis in terms of looking at it to make sure our dams met the federal guidelines.

MUMMERT: Now, and when the--did the federal guidelines come out? Were those the things you were talking about under the Carter Administration?

WILLIAMS: Under the Carter Administration, yes. And those guidelines, they came out, but they were enhanced by the agencies working together, TVA, and the Corps of Engineering, the Department of Agriculture.

MUMMERT: Well, I happen to know that the Corps of Engineers has some responsibility for the locks. Did they have responsibility for--d--for the safety of the locks with TVA or how did that work?

WILLIAMS: That worked with--they worked with TVA. TVA basically was responsible for the safety on TVA dams, but the--uh--Corps of Engineers was responsible for operations.

MUMMERT: Oh, okay. So--uh--dam safety is--uh--a part of your past, and you walked into Water Quality or the quality program?

WILLIAMS: I--I worked yeah, I became a part of the TVA's quality program. And I--uh--uh--taught tools and techniques, which was a quality program that was introduced. But that was something in terms of how we can become more efficient as an organization.

MUMMERT: Tell me more about the quality program and what it was 00:38:00supposed to do.

WILLIAMS: It well, it was supposed to make us better at how we do things and also make us do things more efficiently.

MUMMERT: And this was TVA-wide?

WILLIAMS: It was TVA-wide, make us use resources better. And it was a--it was a program I think that basically saved TVA because we started looking at ourselves and how we do things better.

MUMMERT: What was the impetus for that?

WILLIAMS: Well, Marvin Runyon came in, and I think he is the one that basically introduced a lot of that to TVA.

MUMMERT: Now Marvin Runyon was the--uh--Chairman--new Chairman of the Board--

WILLIAMS: New Chairman of the Board at the time.

MUMMERT: --and, and he came out of the automobile industry.

WILLIAMS: Exactly, and so he brought some of that with him in terms 00:39:00of quality.

MUMMERT: And then so--

WILLIAMS: --And--and TVA basically, at one time TVA was in a lot of debt, and as you realized and we weren't as efficient as we probably should have been. And he made us look at ourselves, and--and I think it made us better for it.

MUMMERT: So you were in that program, and you indicated you did something re--related to tools and techniques?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I did some teaching, I taught. They had a program in terms of--um--quality tools, and so forth. And so they had classes that we had TVA employees in. And I was one of the ones that was trained to--to teach that, well--.

MUMMERT: And you taught--uh--what just everybody or the managers?

WILLIAMS: I taught managers; I taught employees, yes.

MUMMERT: They had to take that training whether they liked it or not.

WILLIAMS: Exactly. They had to take it, it was something that was required, at the time.

MUMMERT: But you worked--you were in water, you dealt mainly primarily with the folks that worked in the water?

WILLIAMS: No, it was all TVA-wide.

MUMMERT: But you--you in particular, you--you might teach or do your training to--deliver that training to anybody anywhere in TVA?

WILLIAMS: I did it for--yeah, anywhere--anywhere in TVA, yes. I did the training all over TVA, yes.

MUMMERT: Did you learn anything when you got to--uh--be a bit more exposed to some of the--uh--other parts of TVA that you weren't familiar with?

WILLIAMS: Oh, oh yes, most definitely. I did--I learned a lot in terms of the power organization and how it worked, and so forth. And I got involved--a lot more involved with the operators because some of them were in our classes. So--so--you--so that--that helped. I think those classes actually 00:41:00helped all of us because it exposed us to others in TVA outside of our own home base.

MUMMERT: Okay. The--uh--training role that you had, did that include--uh--responding to people's feedback--uh--after the training was over? Or did you get involved in any particular projects that were attempting to improve?

WILLIAMS: No, I wasn't in that. That--that came probably, they--they had a organiz--a quality organization that was responsible for--for the feedback and that sort of thing, and that came out of that. But, I was not a part of that particular organization.

MUMMERT: Okay. How long did you do that?

WILLIAMS: I did that for about two--two or three years.

MUMMERT: And then--uh--did that--the quality program--uh--continue on without a particular staff, or did it--uh--go away or did you just want to have a job change or?

WILLIAMS: No, I just not, was not a part of it, just anymore--it. They had staff that were doing that and then sort of part of that was just phased out. They just phased out that organization

MUMMERT: So, when you had no part in it anymore, that you went on to water, or Water Quality.

WILLIAMS: I--I--I--I went on to doing things in terms of--uh--doing the things around TVA dams in terms of the warning systems. But like I said, the last ten years of my career was spent basically implementing the warning 00:43:00systems around TVA dams.

MUMMERT: And specifically, what were involved, what--uh--constituted the warning systems?

WILLIAMS: The warning system consisted of, you had a control panel that controlled everything.

MUMMERT: Where was that, in--at the dam or?

WILLIAMS: That was at--that was at the dam itself--that was at the dam itself. And then we had--we had strobe lights, it had warning horns and they were put at strategic points. Some of them was on the dam, some of them was downstream from the dam. And at--uh--some projects, like the Ocoee's, we also had a voice box that basically told people to get out of the water. Water is about to be released from the dam, please get out of the water and get to safety.

MUMMERT: And that--uh--had to be inspected--uh--you had to make sure that everything worked as properly well as--.

WILLIAMS: Had to make sure everything worked properly, had make sure that not--uh--if one system went out, then we got feedback saying that one of the systems is down, one of the strobe lights is out or one of the warning horns is out. And so then we had to send someone out to change it out. And we had to maintain also an inventory of spare parts because, here again, the dams are used for producing power. --Uh--warning system is interlocked with the 00:45:00power system, so you cannot produce power unless the warning system is working, unless you use the bypass switch. And you don't want to use a bypass switch when there might be people downstream. That could create a whole lot more liability for TVA.

MUMMERT: I think you've had a most interesting--uh--career at--uh--TVA. --Um--looking back on your overall--uh--collection of TVA jobs and careers, is there any one thing that sticks out about your TVA experience that was very special?

WILLIAMS: Well, what was special was being involved in doing the 00:46:00original proposals for developing the warning system. And once that was accepted, they asked me to manage the program, to implement it. And that was very--to me very rewarding.

MUMMERT: That--uh--certainly was. I bet not--uh--many people that plan things get to implement what they proposed.

WILLIAMS: Exactly.

MUMMERT: --Um--do you have any--uh--favorite memories or stories that--uh--come to mind about anything during your years at TVA?

WILLIAMS: Well, I tell you, I think that--uh--I'll 00:47:00always--um--endeared to the people in Forestry, Fisheries and Wildlife Development. --Uh--they made me feel at home here in the Tennessee Valley. Because when I came up here, this was a not--I was a long way from Pensacola, Florida, and a long way from home. And this was a strange area to me, but they--those people and Tom Ripley made me feel at home. And I'm always grateful for--for that.

MUMMERT: Well, they must have had a tremendous impact on you because you're still here.

WILLIAMS: Yes, that's right.

MUMMERT: And you haven't gone anywhere.

WILLIAMS: And I haven't gone anywhere.

MUMMERT: --Uh--that's--uh--about all the questions I have for you but one. --Uh-- is there any question that you wish that I had asked you that I didn't?

WILLIAMS: Well, the only question I wish you had asked is--uh--are--what--what is TVA going to do in terms of getting more involved in the community, becoming--getting back to some of the roots that they used to have? But that's not a question that I can answer, but that's a question that needs to be answered somewhere in terms of, is TVA more than just a power company.

MUMMERT: That's a most appropriate way to bring this interview to an end. Mr. Erven Williams, thank you very much.

WILLIAMS: I appreciate you, Phil.