Interview with Lawrence Calvert, June 7, 2017

MUMMERT: --Uh--the following is an oral history interview conducted in part of the Tennessee Valley Authority Retirees Association Oral History Project. The person being interviewed is Lawrence Calvert.[1] Mr. Calvert is a retiree of the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). He worked at the TVA for 30 years between January 1963 and June 1993. He is being interviewed by Philip Mummert as part of the Oral History Project. The interview location is Mr. Calvert's residence in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, and today is Wednesday, June 7, 2017. And we're now beginning. --Um--Hi Larry. And I appreciate your--uh--being willing to do this. I'm going to begin by just simply asking you--uh--to describe the circumstances that led to your being a TVA employee.

CALVERT: --Uh--a good place to start, Phil. --Um--I was a naval officer--uh--on a tour duty, stationed in the Pentagon. And was--uh--due for the end of that tour of duty--uh--when the Cuban crisis hit in October 1962. I couldn't get out of the Navy if I had wanted to--uh--everything was frozen in place. In the meantime, I had put out resumes--uh--with various places. Having had a journalism background in college--uh--I had thought that perhaps I could land with the Washington Post or the New York Times--uh--. Young people 00:02:00are dreamers! And--um--TVA was the only place I applied that was willing to even interview me. And I interviewed with--uh--the TVA Information Office in--uh--late November. And they offered me a job before Christmas and I went to work in January.

MUMMERT: Could you give me a--just a thumbnail sketch of your whole TVA career? You worked there for 30 years. Just an outline of--uh--you know, the various positions you had or the different places you worked.

CALVERT: --Uh--bringing a little different perspective--uh--quite a different perspective I think, than most of the people--uh--who have worked 00:03:00with TVA, in that--uh--uh--I had the opportunity both to spend time both on the corporate side of TVA, and--uh--with the original management of TVA, things of that nature--uh--. And then later, as a division director--uh--to work in the line operations--the day-to-day operations. So, it was a--uh--it was a completely diff--uh--broad spectrum was my approach over those 30 years in TVA. --Uh--I began, as I said, in--uh--the TVA Information Office--uh--where the--a variety of--uh--public relations duties. But--uh--primarily--uh--a lot of my--uh-- time there evolved into becoming one of the principal speech 00:04:00writers for the Board of Directors. And that too added--uh--perspective, I think, to my approach to and belief in, TVA. --Um--I then moved to Washington, was sent there--um--in--uh--1972--uh--to be TVA's Washington Representative, only the third Washington Representative in TVA's history. --Uh--so I didn't have a whole lot of perspective to--to work from there when I got to Washington. The decade of the 1970s, I was the Washington Rep. Came back--uh--in the Spring of '79--uh--to Norris, Tennessee--um--and served as the Assistant 00:05:00Director of the--uh--of the--uh--Lands and Forests Division out there. --Uh--suddenly, in the--uh--early 1980s, I'm not quite sure of the date, I think it was 1983--uh--was caught--I was caught by surprise by being told I should go to Knoxville and be the--uh--Assistant Director of the Economic and Community Development Division. Was there less than a year when there was another upheaval, and I suddenly became the Director of the Economic and Community Development Division. --Another reorganization--unfortunately TVA had more than it needed in terms of reorganizations through that period of its 00:06:00life--um--uh--I came--uh--back to Norris and headed the TVA Lands Resources Division from--um--the late 80s until I retired in 1993. That's a pretty big thumbnail.

MUMMERT: It's a big thumbnail, but also it's a pretty--uh--diverse--uh--experience. So, let's go back and take some of these--these different phases of your career one at a time. You started out in the Information Office, you said, and that would've been of course in 1963 or there abouts. --Uh--you didn't get much of attention from the New York Times or the Washington Post, but-- uh--I do think you told me earlier that 00:07:00you--this was not the first time you ever heard of TVA in 1963. --Uh--you must of--you knew something about it beforehand. --Uh--could you tell me a little bit about that and how that maybe helped you do your--some of the initial work in the Information Office?

CALVERT: Actually, it was a--tremendous amount of help in that--uh--uh--. Also somewhat unique to people, not everyone, but many people in TVA. --Um--TVA literally fed me my first bottle of baby formula in the 1930s. --Um--my father was--uh--uh--the head of the Highway Railway Design Branch in the Office of Engineering. --Uh--he joined TVA as a young engineer in July 1933, 00:08:00one of the first--of the first wave anyway of TVA employees. So I--I literally--.

MUMMERT: So, just--just to--to clarify, and TVA was--uh--created in May.

CALVERT: May 18th, 1933.

MUMMERT: So, he started three months after--the it was signed by FDR?

CALVERT: Yeah, he was a young engineer living in Washington and--uh--came down to work, back to the Valley. He was from Middle Tennessee, came back to the Valley--uh--. And I--I literally grew up with TVA and the or--many of the original TVA'ers, which is very significant I think because they--their approach to TVA, their attitudes about TVA's mission--uh--were fresh and--and--and original. --Um--that wasn't always true over time. The natural 00:09:00evolution was that--that people who came to TVA--uh--and especially its top management later--uh--didn't bring the same kind of--uh--perspective, shall we say. But I grew up with a--uh--with a real almost a rel--it was almost like a religion to those folks--and--uh--I was a member of the church.

MUMMERT: And we probably could conduct a several-hour interview about just that part of yo--your life, but I would like to--uh--to maybe shorten things and ask you--uh--if you could, to share with us any--uh--you know special memories during that period. Early period, maybe what you remember doing with your Dad or people that you may have met at TVA or some events that may have 00:10:00occurred that stick in your mind.

CALVERT: Good question. And that--uh--part of my affection I guess you would say for TVA came from literally holding onto my father's hand as a--um--as a youngster and going with him--uh--to watch--uh--the steel and concrete rise at Fontana[2] or later as a--uh--early teenager--uh--going out to a pile of rock and concrete here near Oak Ridge--um--where a--uh--young construction engineer named George Kimmons was building Bull Run Steam Plant. And--um--as I say--uh--just being around these people and those 00:11:00projects, those--those-uh--that era of TVA, is--is just a special memory. I also would--uh--would especially m--like to--um--while I--I--do remember--um--my time--uh--with people--even up to and including--uh--Chairman Aubrey Wagner, who was Chairman of the Board of TVA for many years--um--. And how that fit together for me was--was really great in that I'd been on the job maybe three or four weeks in the Information Office, barely knew how to find the new Sprankle Building--uh--when the call came down from the Chairman's office 00:12:00saying that he was going to make a--uh--speech in Muscle Shoals and--uh--would I like to fly down with him on the TVA plane and let him point out some things to me along the river as we--as we--uh--flew over them. And--uh--no one--no one could ask for that kind of indoctrination into an agency.

MUMMERT: I assume that you went along?

CALVERT: You can assume that I was there first.

MUMMERT: The--um--at that time, when you began work--uh--in the Information Office--uh--what were some of the issues that were foremost in I guess TVA's mind?

CALVERT: Well, this again, was the decade of the 1960s. And--uh--the big building boom was on.

MUMMERT: And I'm going to interrupt but I guess most of the dams on 00:13:00the river were constructed at--by that time?

CALVERT: Yes--yes, the dams were constructed, some of the steam plants. --Uh--but this became--uh--part of--the very first part of the big power plant building boom--uh--uh--and--uh--and the exp--more importantly, the expansion of the power program in terms of--uh--of--uh--not only customers but in terms of kilowatts produced and things like that. So, power was a big, big thing in the 1960s. And--uh--uh--the issues surrounding that, coupled with the fact that we were still--still having to--to guard against--and that's a fair phrase guard against the rear-- rear action of the--uh--organized--uh--private 00:14:00power companies who, it was mostly gone by then, but there were the remnants of hey, we've got to do away with this TVA. This socialistic thing has gone on long enough. And--uh--TVA had--uh--had had that battle, from course, from 1933 forward. And so just continuing to--uh--engage in our form of public relations the--uh--with the people and with the state, local, and national governments to--um--to point out our reasons for being.

MUMMERT: Now, at that time--uh--when you began at TVA, the--uh--had 00:15:00the power service area been--uh--I guess--uh--cemented--uh--because of the Congressional Act in I think it was in 1959?

CALVERT: 1959, was--uh--which was shortly before I came to TVA.

MUMMERT: So, people though the private utilities would not have been complaining about TVA's--expansion, but they were still concerned about TVA existing?

CALVERT: Yeah. And their contention was that we were a subsidized--uh--operation and could've never been as efficient as a private power company. --Uh--from a PR standpoint--um--we would do things like point out--uh--the plant efficiency ratings say of--uh-- the new units at Paradise Steam Plant in West 00:16:00Kentucky and compare them to the nearest similar sized private power plants in--um--Illinois, Missouri, and Kentucky. --Uh--we were surprised one day, completely caught off guard, by an article, I believe was in Readers Digest that used that data in reverse. They had taken the TVA data and applied it to their plants and used their data and called it Paradise Steam Plant.

MUMMERT: Do you remember some of those--uh--how--what a difference there was--was between--uh--some of those plants?

CALVERT: I don't, no. The--the difference when you look at these things is not huge, but--uh--because producing power is producing power. But in 00:17:00terms of--it didn't take more than a half a percent or a percent in difference in--uh--operating efficiency to mean several million dollars in terms of--uh--fixed costs versus--uh--fixed and operating costs versus ours versus theirs. And I do remember of course that--uh--I don't remember the actual fractions of a cent per kilowatt hour that we were charging then, b--but as I recall it was about 85-plus percent of the--the national rate.

MUMMERT: So, the power program was growing and there were some issues. But--uh--when you were in the Information Office--uh--could we speak a little bit about the other activities that TVA was involved with that were 00:18:00supported primarily by Congressional appropriations?

CALVERT: Umm--hmm. Umm--hmm. Yes those, in terms of the--um--in terms of the public relations effort of the Information Office effort, those were primarily directed at--at explaining what those programs were and why TVA was involved in them. --Um--after all--um--as a demonstration agency, as an outreach agency--um--the whole idea was to--to tell the world, if you will, looky here, this is a--this is a new way of doing things, and--uh--we've been doing that all along, people--uh--and perhaps you've just missed the fact that--uh-- 00:19:00there were things like--uh--completely innovative schools that TVA created in Muscle Shoals, Alabama, and--uh--Norris, Tennessee, as demonstrations of--uh--how to do things more efficiently and better--uh--. Let us tell you about what we're doing. And--uh--that was--that was basically it. The--uh--Tributary Area Development Program started in the 1960s and--uh--that was one that got promoted quite a bit by TVA--uh--because the idea of taking sub-regions of the Valley and--and--uh--applying that somewhat strange term, it seemed to me, in the South called planning . . . p-l-a-n-n-i-n-g, planning applying--applying that kind of approach to the--uh--development of a 00:20:00multi-county area, that was unique.

MUMMERT: It--it was and also in terms of the public information being conveyed, was the audience--uh--the regional and national media? Or was it--uh--Congress and elected officials, or both?

CALVERT: As far as I was concerned, from my perspective back then, it was primarily--uh--reaching out to the media and--and--and to the people of the Valley--uh--through the media--um--. But certainly, in Washington, where TVA had a--a tiny, very tiny--uh--Washington staff but had--uh--one of the 00:21:00icons in TVA history, a lady named Marguerite Owen, as its long-time Washington Representative. And--uh--certainly, the same message was being transmitted--uh--to the members of Congress. And est--she was--she established a template, if you will, that I was la--later when I became TVA Washington Representative--uh--able to build upon because she had--she had--uh--contacts with members of Congress, and primarily the key members of Congress from the Tennessee Valley states, that formed a--a formidable lobbying network.

MUMMERT: The--uh-- at that time in the 1960s, with her help, I would 00:22:00think that the mood of most members of Congress would be--have been very positive, even outside the Tennessee Valley.

CALVERT: I think so, by and large. Again, there were still those people who were influenced by in the same manner that we see in politics today, perhaps, that were influenced by--um--an ultra-conservative point of view. That--uh--uh--they just did not want to believe that the government should be involved in all these kinds of things. And so, there were--there were and always, I guess always will be--uh--some people who--who are not going to be that supportive in Washington or elsewhere. --Um--but by and large, yes, it was a--it was a time 00:23:00of--of generously--uh--ok nationally.

MUMMERT: Now you, in particular--uh--when you were in the Information Office, did you primarily write speeches or did you do a lot of other types of activities?

CALVERT: A lot of other stuff. I wrote press releases. I--um--uh--I was the one--uh--who took over the preparation of TVA's Annual Report--um--a few years, very few years after I got there, maybe in my third year and had that responsibility as long as I was there in the Information Office--um--. I was--uh--the princeptible--excuse me--principal instigator, I guess you could say--uh--in starting as--TVA's--uh--internal publications. --Uh-- you 00:24:00may recall that we had a four-color magazine that we printed quarterly and a monthly newsletter that went to all employees. And--uh--for the first time, rather than--uh--being primarily--uh--human resourcesees focused, if you will, it was written in the same manner and by the same people who were--uh--writing for the outside world. And--uh--it was quite successful, I thought.

MUMMERT: What was the name of those publications?

CALVERT: Haha, I knew you were going to ask me that! I should know them--I should know them as well as--.[3]

MUMMERT: I'm asking you because I don't remember them, but I ought to myself. That's alright. So that was the period, let's see--uh--the President, John F. Kennedy visited TVA during that period. Did you--that was very close 00:25:00to the time when--maybe when you started. Did--you get to--to be involved in that event?

CALVERT: I was not. That was going tho--on when I came to TVA. It was--uh--both--uh--I can't remember which came first--but it was almost at the time I joined TVA. And--uh--uh--that was sort of an interesting way to begin your career, the President of the United States, and especially that President of the United States. --Uh--one small vignette I do remember from that because it impressed me so. I had never known how--uh--the Presidents got their material when they were actually speaking to the public about a particular subject. I knew they had speech writers and they had--uh--others, but it never 00:26:00occurred to me that--uh--somebody in the TVA Information Office might actually prepare some of those words. All I remember in the beginning was having read Kennedy's speech at Muscle Shoals. And I thought how in the world does that man know that much about TVA? And his famous line: "The work of TVA will never be over" was--uh--was--uh--written, I'm pretty sure, by--uh--someone in the TVA Information Office.

MUMMERT: It sounds like it. --Um--any other thoughts or memories about being in the Information Office? Cause--I'm--going to--I'm going--I'm going to 00:27:00make you jump then to your new position in Washington in the ear--during the 1970s.

CALVERT: And that would've been again, in--uh--and again, of--of all of these things seem to happen suddenly and with surprise. --Uh--the second Washington Representative in history was not there very long. His name was Jake Vreeland V-r-e-e-l-a-n-d, he was a young TVA lawyer. And--uh--he was there l--less than five years--uh--I think I'm right about that, and--uh--decided he didn't want to be there anymore. I would not want to speak for him, but, I rather suspect that--uh--the pressure had begun to get to him because that-- the way 00:28:00we played it in those days as to the way TVA dealt with certain things in later years up there I think--um--. I often described it as a--um--giant poker game in which you played poker several times a week for the highest stakes possible and you'd better not lose. This was the era when I got there of--um--of the big ex--huge expansion of borrowing authority under the '59 Act. For the first time, TVA was going before Congress on a fairly regular basis, and for the first time, the word 'billions' with a b, was being tossed about in relationship 00:29:00to TVA. It was unheard of money in those days in the middle 60s. --Um--and for the first time again in quite a while, the opponents of TVA saw this. Each time, see TVA had to go be--before Congress for an act of a--that would give them that money. And--uh--and the opponents saw that as a real opportunity. And--uh--so, the lobbying for and against that was fairly intense. And I'd never been a lobbyist before, but I sure did enjoy the game. And--uh--that should add that that's the way we did it then--uh--. Other Federal agencies--um--as far as I know without fail-- since their--uh--leadership was not only appointed 00:30:00by a President, it turned over with each Administration and so their loyalties and their allegiances were totally in--in sync--with--uh--with whatever the policies of the Administration were. TVA, with a staggered Board appointed for multi-year terms--um--by different administrations, didn't necessarily have that same--um--shall we say, mentality. Sure, we wanted to get along with the--the big boss up in Washington, but our--our allegiance was to the old mavens on Capitol Hill--uh--who ran the Congress. And in my era, it also 00:31:00happened to be many of them were from a place called the Tennessee River Valley. And so, our allegiance and our--our alignments, I guess is rather than allegiance--um--was with them because they wanted stuff for the people, their representatives of the Te--uh--of the Tennessee Valley, golly, that's what we wanted. And--uh--it made for a totally different approach--and--uh--led in several ways. I'll get off the power program--uh--now, except to say one last story on the borrowing authority. We were borrowing about $5 billion dollars and--uh--we went before the--uh--c--approp--Congressional committees, not the Appropriations Committees, but the--uh--the--our Resources 00:32:00Committees. --Um--in the House of Representatives, we came under the umbrella of the Natural Resources--um--arm of the--the Congressional Committee that was chaired by a--a man named Robert 'Bob' Jones of Scottsboro, Alabama --Um--I could go on for a full interview about Bob Jones. He was sort of my mentor on the Hill, or one of them. But after that $5 billion dollar bill passed on the floor and he left nothing to chance. He had lieutenants stationed all around and--uh--it breezed, through except for one surprise. A congressman from New Hampshire stood up and made about a five-minute speech against 00:33:00it. And I was amazed that no one seemed to care. And I got back to Mr. Jones's office after the--uh--the vote. I was feeling pretty good. He was scowling, raised a finger to me. And he said: "Son, if you have--if you have any relatives or even close friends who live in the state of New Hampshire, you better tell them to move because there's not going to be one damn Federal dollar spent there in the next two years." So, again, that sort of illustrates the kind 00:34:00of--uh--relationships we had up there--uh--.

MUMMERT: And, also, but and you were--had to, and did--uh--learn about all the peculiarities and different personalities and relationships among Congress to be able to exist yourself? And then--uh--probably had to explain different aspects of TVA to those that were interested in whatever aspect you were communicating?

CALVERT: That was what you did. And--um--for some reason--.

MUMMERT: That was before Google and easily being able to go to a electronic--uh--website and find out a lot about these folks. Is that right?

CALVERT: Well, an interesting aside, there was a young Congressman I 00:35:00got to know up there pretty well--uh--who one day told me the world is going to be run through computers in a few years, Larry. You really need to--uh--to pay attention to that. And I said--uh--:"You really think so Congressman Gore?" And--uh--by golly, he was right--um--yes.

MUMMERT: This has absolutely nothing to do with this recording but since we're--.

MUMMERT: Okay. --Um--while Washington Office 1960s--uh--one thing that I'm aware of because of my personal interests, is that that was a period of time when there was a lot of very important--uh--oh--environmental legislation 00:36:00being passed that changed our world. ---And so, you would've had to have been up on those changes.

CALVERT: During the latter part of my time, there the environment became an issue. And you had to learn the hard way because it was not something that--uh--thought about before. And indeed our interest in it, and my interest in it--uh--during the 1970s--uh--was primarily how to explain--defend might be too strong of a word how to explain--uh--that yes, there were noxious things that came out of the stacks of coal burning power plants--uh--but 00:37:00they could be controlled if you were willing to spend the money to do it. --Um--and so that we were--we were a major player in Clean Air Act legislation and found ourselves sort of as a betwixt and between might be the phrase. In that--in that effort on Capitol Hill, I suddenly got to know a lot of private power company lobbyists, who wanted basically the same things that we wanted, but less of it. --Uh--on the other hand, I came to know that--uh--their bosses really didn't trust us. I recall one time--uh--hearing from one of 00:38:00their lobbyists that their, one of the CEO's of--uh--one of the private power conglomerates was concerned that--uh--that fellow, Red Wagner, you can't tell what he's going to say when he gets up there before Congress. He might say stuff that was pro-environment and you've got to be careful about that kind of stuff, it can be interpreted the wrong way. So, we were caught sort of a betwixt and between on that kind of thing. --Uh--but yeah, that, and--uh--of course--uh--we were mightily embroiled in--uh--trying to explain to folks that little bitty fish could be transplanted out of the Little Tennessee River Valley--uh--and we were not going to destroy it under the Endangered Species Act. The 00:39:00fight over Tellico had reached its peak in--right around the end of my time in DC.

MUMMERT: Was it known that--uh--that fish--uh--

CALVERT: The snail darter

MUMMERT: Was it known that it could be transplanted at that point?

CALVERT: Yes, we were transplanting it, in the late 70s, TVA was, yeah--um--.

MUMMERT: Oh, you were okay. Because, I don't remember that being part of the national story.

CALVERT: It was hard to get anybody to listen to you. Because the drum-beat against it--uh--by the fledgling environmental movement was--uh--was real strong. Between that and the--uh--and the fact that you were going to flood some--uh--Native Amer--once-Native American lands, even though they were now--um--farmland that had been farmed for well over a century 00:40:00by--uh-- White East Tennesseans. --Um--they were still historic. And--um--and I--I was torn. I could appreciate that. I was very much in sympathy with the--with the historic part of the T--of--uh--the Tennessee Valley, as I've said before. And so--uh--um--it was a rough fight.

MUMMERT: Well the--uh--environmental movement--uh--the creation of EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) near--in this period--uh--created--uh--a tremendous amount of cultural change in all sorts of industries and so forth. And it was a time after World War II when there was a lot 00:41:00of--uh--economic growth and production and building and TVA was part of that and, all of a sudden--uh--this whole new wave of sensitivity comes into the--.

CALVERT: That's right, we had to learn--and--and should learn, that's the point--um--. I Remember--um--and this was another part of--um--of my job up there that never showed up in the job description. You mentioned--uh--earlier about explaining TVA and TVA's position to--uh--members of Congress. During this era, it became important to explain to TVA and its management, Congressional positions and rationale--uh-- and try to--to reach some accommodation. 00:42:00Because, believe it or not, they were still more powerful than we were. And--uh--that was not an easy thing to do.

MUMMERT: I bet not.

CALVERT: I remember--I considered in--uh--the late 1970s--um--a couple of my--what--I--I was really proud of the--of myself and my staff--uh--small as it was, for--um--helping convince the TVA Board, though they never asked me to convince them, that with just uh--uh--a tweak here and there, we could support the Federal Clean Air Act and still produce power. --Um--and the 00:43:00other one that I got even more pleasure out of, was--uh--during a--uh--hearing on the Senate side, being able to send word up to the dais to Senator Baker[4] that--uh--I had gotten a call from--uh--the TVA Chairman saying that TVA would indeed support the--uh--National Strip Mine Act that Baker was holding--holding hearings on at that time, the Strip Mine Reclamation. --Uh--so, we were not bad guys, we just had, like 00:44:00everyone else, had to learn to evolve and--um--and to do it right.

MUMMERT: You were in a position--uh--certainly, not to make--uh--TVA policy, but from time to time you could maybe--uh--inch it along here and there?

CALVERT: Again, as long as--as long as my relationships were with--uh--people in TVA who had h--elped raise me up since--uh--my early days. --Uh--I felt like I did have a special relationship with--uh--Chairman Wagner. --Uh--I had a very good relationship--uh--with someone that many people did not, because he was a different kind of guy. And that was--uh--Board of Director Frank 00:45:00Smith from Mississippi. --Uh--Don McBride was another one that I got along with very, very well. And I could talk to these--these people--um--and, apparently, I hadn't realized it until then--I was to realize it a hell of a lot more in my future life back in the line organizations--um--in big corporations, people are hesitant to jump two or three levels and talk to superiors. You just don't do that, I gathered. I didn't know that. Only other thing I would add, Phil, about Washington, and then we can move right along is that the other part of Washington work did not involve--uh-- the power program but was the 00:46:00annual TVA appropriation. It was always--uh--contested, always difficult, always--uh--puzzling to me that we--I never thought we asked for enough money to do the things that we had on the drawing boards. --Um--this again was in part I think because historically we had not and it was due in part because--um--for all of their positive traits, I think--um--most of the early--early--um--top management of TVA, they didn't like to go to Washington. They didn't like to put themselves through that--uh--wringer and so the less they had to do it, the better. --Uh--the thing that was a salvation in my era--most of my 00:47:00era. It ended abruptly towards the end of that--uh--was again we did not--uh--feel an unbridled, undying al--allegiance to whatever the Administration's Office of Management and Budget (OMB) said we should do and should have. We took the budget--uh--the process is, I should add quickly is, that the agency prepares its budget, submits it to OMB. They dissect it, give it back to you, a--and that's the budget you take to the Appropriations Committees in--uh--on the Hill. And I would sit there and look at it when it came back and pick out all the things they left out. And then I then go to Capitol 00:48:00Hill to the Congressman from that District and say: "Hey, they left this out. --Uh--if you might--we might be able to get it back in if you were to--uh--appear before--us--before the--when we appear--on--before your Appropriations Committee, you might want to ask us about that. We are obligated to give you honest answers." We would add anywhere from $10, $20 million a year to our budget. And--and receive phone call--I would a get phone call every week during the budget appropriation from somebody in the hierarchy of the Office of Management and Budget saying: "Now, don't-- don't be--jump, you answer 00:49:00the questions--you know, you all answer your questions up there. But, this is your budget, you understand this is your--?" "Oh yeah, I--I understand." Again, it depends on where your allegiances lie.

MUMMERT: Where were--was the TVA office when you were there in Washington?

CALVERT: It was in the--um--pretty much the same place it had always been. It was on--um--17th Street[5]--in an--um--office building known as the Woodward Building. And that--if you stood on--uh--the corner where the United States Treasury building is. The Treasury Building lies adjacent to the White House. If you crossed the street going north-- 17th 00:50:00Street[6] and went a block and one-half, you came to the Woodward Office Building. We were that close to--uh--to the White House. --Uh--shortly after I left, as a matter of fact, the plans were underway when I left--uh--they moved up on Capitol Hill.

MUMMERT: Well, then you returned--you returned to the Tennessee Valley?

CALVERT: I returned to the Tennessee Valley then, I was--uh--.

MUMMERT: That was--uh--19--late 70s.

CALVERT: --Uh--that would have been in--uh--1979 in--uh--the spring of '79, I guess. And--uh--came back--uh-- Tom Ripley, the Director of--uh--Land 00:51:00and Forest Resources. I--I went to Tom and asked him if he had anything coming up and available because I'd always sort of thought I'd like to work in Norris. --Uh--didn't have a whole lot in mind. Didn't have exactly a lot of line organization qualifications, but--uh--I could sense that my time was getting short up there. --Uh--and--uh--there was a new regime, a new "sheriff" in town as they say and--uh--named S. David Freeman.

MUMMERT: Okay that c--that was--uh--and he came about the time when you were still in the? He wa--you were in the Washington Office when the 00:52:00Freemans came?

CALVERT: Yes, I was the Washington Representative--uh--the last--uh--the last year I was there--the better part of the last year I was there. He was the Chairman and things changed a lot, let's-- I'll--I'll leave it at that. And--uh--he was his own lobbyist. He had--he had spent most of his career as a staff person on Capitol Hill and--uh--in his mind, he knew Washington better than anybody. He--he didn't much need--uh--uh--somebody else operating independently up there. --Um--so, I came back and Ripley gave me a job, made me--uh--an assistant to a fellow named Rick Morgan in the--uh--the I guess it was called Land and Forest then, I don't remember. --Um--and--uh--it 00:53:00was--um--it was once described to--uh--by somebody to me, oh I know when it was, it was when they--when I was--I was tapped to--uh--go to and be at--to go to Knoxville and be--uh--part of Economic and Community Development--uh--.

MUMMERT: And that happened-uh--one or just about a year or so after you first--?

CALVERT: That was in the--uh--it actually was--uh--probably 1982. I was out at Norris as an assistant for about three years. And it was described, that three-year period--uh-- by someone--uh--who was telling me I needed 00:54:00to--to--uh--to get back in the management flow of things. I remember he said: "You know what, it's time you come out of the closet." And their assumption was fairly correct in that if they were--meant you're hiding out--out there in the woods, it's time to come back--back to the--to the big city. --Um--and I was, pretty much hiding out in the woods.--um--.

MUMMERT: Now, what was the range of activities that were--you had some responsibility for overseeing when you were in Norris and then--.

CALVERT: I was just the assistant director out there. And--and--uh--and then I will jump ahead in terms of answering that question to the fact that after I spent time in Knoxville as Director of Economic Community 00:55:00Development, there was another major reorganization and I went back to Norris and finished my career out there. And--the--uh--responsibilities were basically the same both times when I was first there and when I finished out there--um--in Norris. --Uh--there was a--um--there was the taking care of what you owned part of TVA that would be the--uh--lands management of all the reservoir lands around the lakes from upper East Tennessee to West Kentucky--uh--and all in between. --Uh--the natural resource programs were all involved in doing that, although we had special field offices all around the Valley, which--uh-- which did 00:56:00the on the---on the ground work. --Um--but those--those--um--Natural Resource programs offices all had an outreach or demonstration component to them that went off of TVA lands. Forests for instance--forestry. Most of TVA's lands are forested.--Uh--but TVA had a Forest Industry Development program that was--uh--responsible for--um--for a lot of the--um--tree planting innovations over the years--uh--in forest industry that in--in turn lead to the--uh--establishment of--uh--things like Bowater Paper Mill and stuff like that around the Valley. --Uh--that's just one example. --Uh--so, that 00:57:00was what went on in Norris. There were--there was forestry, there was wildlife--um--there was--um--a recreation branch that was responsible primarily for managing the recreation sites on TVA lands. --Um--there was one of the jewels of TVA that I never thought got the recognition it deserved and that was the Environmental Education Program. That operated out of Norris. --Um--I'm sure I'm leaving something out, but that was--those were the basics.

MUMMERT: But there was a--quite a--a range of activities that many or 00:58:00all stemmed from TVA's--early beginning.

CALVERT: Um--hmm. Um--hmm. Yeah, exactly. And that again, was this whole original concept that I had learned from the mentors--the original mentors in TVA is this is integrated resource development, this is unified resource development--air, water, land--all of this goes together. --Uh--start messing with one, you're messing with another one. And--uh--that doctrine was what I tried to preach the whole time I was involved in TVA and especially when I was a line manager. --Uh--by then it was to the young pups coming up who didn't have the background that I had.

MUMMERT: Not an easy thing to explain or manage in a big bureaucracy or within a governmen--.

CALVERT: Not really, if you--unless you had people who you could--uh--I guess it's sort of like again, to use the term religion, unless you could--uh-- bring them into the fold.

MUMMERT: Well, during this period--I mean the latter part of your TVA career, when you were--uh--you know an assistant director or director of these activities. --Uh--are there any--uh--special memories that--uh--stick out? I'm sure you have a few.

CALVERT: Issues and memories. Memories are usually related--memories are usually related to issues.--Um--let me describe them, let me see if I can think of it--uh--. Truthfully, both in--um--Economic Community Development and in Natural Resources, most of my memories focus around the--the--uh--the dollars 01:00:00and cents required to keep them operating. And again, I come back to what I had learned in Washington is that, there was there was never enough. And explaining in--inside TVA, where I was now, as opposed to outreach in Washington--uh--was very diff--. I did a heck of a lot better at it explaining it to members of Congress than I did explaining it to the top management of TVA, somehow--uh--because--uh--it was always difficult. --Uh--you--you just--there was never enough. And the other thing that--uh--probably was surpris--most surprising to me, and this leads to a special memory that I can chuckle about now, it made me mad as hell at the time. --Uh--I was completely 01:01:00shocked, as someone who had spent his whole career talking about TVA togetherness, in finding the level of dog-eat-dog competitiveness amongst my fellow line operation managers for those limited dollars. You give--you give one piece of meat and throw it out there to a dog pan, you're going to have some fights. And--and--uh--while we were all gentlemen and didn't come to blows, it was--uh--it was very competitive for a limited number of dollars and of course sitting just above us was a--uh--a manager who was going to decide who got what. --Uh--and that was just at the request level. It still had to go all 01:02:00the way up like through the chain into Washington. Shortly after I came to Norris as the--uh--Assistant Manager of--uh--Land Man--Land Resources--uh--Tom Ripley had called a meeting for the conference room in Norris. In which all of the division directors were to come and present their top budget priorities for that coming fiscal year. Great, I thought. I'll sit in on this and--uh--and--uh--I can real--be--be of some real help, I know what'll sell. --Uh--I've been doing this for seven years for you guys--uh--all of you, and I--I--if you present it, I can sort of take notes and know what will 01:03:00sell--what will sell. --Uh--everybody greeted me warmly--all my old friends from the Water, and Land Between the Lakes, and--and--uh--wherever. We got ready for the meeting to start. "Excuse me, Tom, what's Calvert doing in here?" He looked at me like I don't know. Another--uh--one spoke up and said: "You told us we couldn't--we couldn't bring our assistants, just to come ourselves." Tom Ripley said: "I'm sorry, Larry, you'll have to leave." And I said--step and said: "I can help you all." "No, no, we don't need your help." You talk about 01:04:00a revelation. It was--uh--it was something I didn't ever anticipate, and never failed to see it ag--over and over again after that.

MUMMERT: Well, there were a lot of changes occurring too that made people more--uh--I don't know, defensive? --Um--TVA had been able to go through a rather coherent period of the first three decades. And I don't know, I'm simplifying, but when the Freemans came, there was some major changes, shake-ups in all sorts of ways. And I think that really disturbed the--the ove--overall culture, I guess.

CALVERT: Yes, yes. Yes. Yeah, the status-quo, that's not the right phrase. The--uh--the balance that the--uh--various--uh--programs and projects felt was put on edge. And--uh--I don't believe any of the middle and upper level managers ever felt secure. So that was--that was a contributing factor. That plus the--the underlying theme of there ain't going to be enough money for all of us, so we're not--we're not going to give anybody a chance to have an edge. That's a far cry from--uh--integrated resource development, isn't it?

MUMMERT: Yes. Did you ever--uh--read or know about Artur Glikson? 01:06:00Artur Glikson. Well, we won't talk about it on this recording, but he's someone that you would like, he's someone that was a big advocate of TVA. But he was an Israeli planner that wrote a lot of good things re--related to--uh--kind of integrated regional development. He was--he was--uh--lived--I--I don't know what age he would have been back in the 30s, but he would have been probably at the peak of his career, or elderly.

CALVERT: He should've enjoyed TVA because in--in theory and especially for its first--uh--3+ decades, why it--uh--it was the example on a broad, broad scale. I do remember one quote--uh--way back when I was in the Information 01:07:00Office. TVA also had a visitors' unit in the Information Office, as a--as an adjunct. And back in those days we were still receiving--uh--hundreds of foreign visitors every year. And--uh--I don't remember the circumstances, I just remember that there was a quote--uh--in the Decatur, Alabama, paper that I read one morning after a--uh--group of foreign dignitaries had left. And this person, whether he was a planner or whether he was a king or potentate of some sort, had--uh--waxed eloquent about--uh--the things that he had seen and 01:08:00learned in his three or four days in the Tennessee Valley at TVA. But his famous quote that was in the paper was: "You've done some wonderful things in--um--in the TVA area, but wasn't it fortuitous that you had such a lovely green Valley to put it in." He--he had missed the most key point of all. He had not--uh--he had not known about the--uh--red clay earth, and the deforested and denuded lands, and the streams that ran to floods every year--um--. It was now a lovely green Valley to put all these things in.

MUMMERT: Yeah, and it's difficult for a visitor to see the past, of 01:09:00course, but also I think--uh--the whole scale of TVA geographically, with such an immense watershed--is beyond most people's comprehension.

CALVERT: That's right, yeah. That's what made it unique, and it was--uh--um--.

MUMMERT: And that's more so today, than it was even 20 years ago when you were working there.

CALVERT: Yes, yes, yes. And, again, more difficult to comprehend not just in terms of size and scope, but also because--uh--except for the outside funded--uh--outreach demonstrations --uh--that TVA still--I understand 01:10:00still has--uh--the day the appropriated budgets ended was the beginning of the end of TVA's--uh--being able to fund in itself and carry out--uh--these amazing, literally when you stop and look at TVA history, just an unbelievable number--an amazing number of things that--uh--that TVA was able to do that had never been done before. That helped make not only the Valley, but the world a better place to live in.

MUMMERT: Yes--and--and--one of the things that I'd like to ask you and we didn't, I--I kind of missed is because of a lot of those things that TVA did that. I mean it--a whole range of things. It might have been a whole range of things, it might have been education or reforestation and we could go in and list 30 or 40 or 50 other things. But, they did have an impact 01:11:00outside the Tennessee Valley--uh--and TVA as you've mentioned earlier, focused on demonstrating things, that--with the hope that maybe if they turned out well, that others would pick them up, and many did. Not just in the Tennessee Valley, but elsewhere. When you were in Washington, you were in a position to deal with other Federal agencies or had you know--was kin--part of your responsibility I guess was to relate to other federal agencies. Was--was there much--uh--of that going on--of recognition of TVA's leadership in areas that certain other Federal agencies might have a primary responsibility for?

CALVERT: Not really. Sometimes. You're talking by the Federal agencies themselves? --Um--.

MUMMERT: By that federal agency. My--after this--uh--recording is 01:12:00over we can talk more, but I've picked up a lot of that since I've left TVA from some people I've known in other states and agencies but--.

CALVERT: One of the--where it was true, I think, I can't prove this but, I think it was primarily so because those people in other Federal agencies had oftentimes been TVA'ers. The early--the early generation of TVA'ers fanned out to all of the Federal agencies in the--in the country in terms of--um--of--um--taking top management and middle-level management 01:13:00positions with them. And they knew. And--uh--but I didn't meet--I met some, but not a whole lot of those, but that was again primarily because you had to remember that--uh--when we talked as we did at for some length about what--what we did when I was Washington Representative, remember all of that stuff was done with first no--zero then one, and when I finished two professional assistants plus two secretarial personnel or administrative office staff. That's all--that was the TVA Washington Office. There wasn't a whole lot of time for outreach beyond--uh--what was never. Indeed I--I suppose it's prohibited 01:14:00technically, sort of prohibited for federal agencies to pattern their lobbying efforts if you will--uh--in the same--wa--uh--pretty much the same way a private company would do it. And others didn't--they had people who were quote congressional relations specialists, all agencies do. They didn't do it like we did.

MUMMERT: And I guess, maybe some of that--uh--takes place at--uh--field levels where professionals exchange information away from Washington.

CALVERT: Yes. I think so. But--uh--.

MUMMERT: Well, listen, you've had a fascinating career. We're winding this down, but I want to ask you, and I'll give you a little time to think about it, if you'd like. But what do you think is your--was your major 01:15:00accomplishment at TVA? You had more than one, but I'm going to make it difficult for you.

CALVERT: I would--I would suppose that if I had to--to pick with a broad brush--um--I would say two. Certainly--uh--certainly the accomplishments in what I referred to earlier as the "giant poker game" in Washington. All of those--all those wins that brought TVA--uh--dollars and brought TVA greater understanding t--to the people that were responsible for our being in Washington. 01:16:00---Uh--that would relate alongside the one thing that I could never be sure I was successful at. But being a son of TVA who grew up being mentored by many of the original TVA'ers, if you will, I carried that--those concepts of TVA's original mission with me always. And I was always preaching it. And I would like to think that at least in--in some small way I was able to get that point across--or those points across to my--my employees and the people that worked with me--uh--over the years, especially in the latter years in the 01:17:00line organizations. --Uh--I won't relate any specifics I happen to know because of some who have come--who have spoke to me over the years, but some of them did get it and th--that was a real thrill. --Uh--how many? I have no idea.

MUMMERT: Well--uh--I think that--uh--as an employee that once worked--uh--under your tutelage, I can vouch that what you just said is--is true and I that you were effective in some instances.

CALVERT: You got it, huh? Well, I'm glad to hear that too.

MUMMERT: But--uh--the--uh--I have one final question and that is related to--uh-- maybe this is the most difficult one. But there 01:18:00any--uh--uh--questions or is there any question that you wish that I had asked that I didn't?

CALVERT: I think we've done a pretty good job of covering it. You know, as you said earlier, we could go three or four interviews worth on a whole variety of programs. We didn't really talk a whole lot about the accomplishments of--uh--of the area you were with me in and--and that was the Economic and Community Development side, which I was very proud of some of the things, again, in terms of--uh--of--um--demonstrations and outreach--the existing industries program.--uh--. Though later top management might not of agreed, they certainly didn't support it--uh--I thought--uh--Townlift was one of the most innovative programs--uh-- that we had in--uh--the 80s in terms of--uh--in terms 01:19:00of really getting down to the very basic lev--community development level and bringing concepts both of real projects and planning to bear on--uh--rural and semi-rural areas of the Tennessee Valley. --Uh--we could've done much more as a matter of fact. And I thought that Jim Gober did a magnificent job of--uh--of--uh--shepherding that program with pittance in terms of resources. --Uh--but--uh--I--I digress that was--. That was just that we left those out and so I thought I'd circle back around and get those in. But, overall, again, the big issues--uh--I think we've hit them. And--uh--like I say, I hope 01:20:00that--uh--at least for the time I was there and for the time of those who might have been--um--under my influence, if there was any--um--that the original TVA idea--uh--that that flame continued to burn. --Uh--I have absolutely no idea whether it exists today or not. I don't know. I've lost not all contact, but most contact with--uh--people in TVA. And--uh--that's a product of being old.

MUMMERT: Well, one thing is for sure, whether it exists today or not at TVA--uh--some of our current day important problems that we face such 01:21:00as--uh--climate change and the need to help--uh--say change people's behavior or teach new and different ways to live are very important. And the kind of approach that TVA did demonstrate for such a long time--we could really use today, from someone--.

CALVERT: That would be the one--last thought I would have is that, every now and then it crosses my mind that, gosh, if we had the same--the same abilities in TVA and were recognized for those abilities that we once had, couldn't we do a wonderful thing for this country through the same kind of approach. And again, whether it be climate change, whether it be cultural relations. 01:22:00--Uh--you pick the subject--and there--and there--would be tremendous things to do--tremendous ways to--to contribute. And, as I say, TVA may be doing some of those things. You don't hear 'em--about them though much anymore. If you have to rely on the med--the press to do it so--.

MUMMERT: No, I think what you said was really important--uh--. And that is--uh-wouldn't it be wonderful if we could approach some of our big problems today with the same approach?

CALVERT: Yes yeah. Yeah I look at it--uh--. And one--one last thing that occurred to me not too long ago that--uh--. As I said earlier, we had the--we would--take sometimes we'd sit there in the Washington Office for two or three weeks at a time, and literally prepare--uh-- things that--on, uh,, 01:23:00sheets of paper that reflected a new Administration's stated goals and society's needs. And over here we would list TVA could help this one, this one, this one, this one. And then we'd use that as our bible and we'd go preach it. And--uh--didn't--most of them didn't get through but--either through TVA or--or through the back door. But--uh--boy, we could sure use that today.

MUMMERT: We could. Larry, thank you so much for your time.

CALVERT: Thank you.