Interview with John "Jack" Barron, July 24, 2017

MUMMERT: The following is an oral history interview conducted as part of the Tennessee Valley Authority Retirees Association Oral History Pilot Project. The person being interviewed is John Barron--uh--familiarly known as Jack.[1] Mr. Barron is a retiree of the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). He worked at the Tennessee Valley Authority for 27 years between May 1962 and May 1989. He is being interviewed by Philip Mummert as part of the Pilot Hist--Oral History Project. The interview location is Mr. Barron's residence in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Monday, July 24th, 2017--uh--the interview is now beginning. Well thank you--

BARRON: There was a three-year lapse in the--um--when I was not at TVA.

MUMMERT: We'll--we'll get to that.

BARRON: It's not important but I just--.

MUMMERT: Okay. --Um--well let's begin--uh--. My first question, Jack is--uh--what were the circumstances that led to your being hired at TVA?

BARRON: Oddly enough, it was the--the election of George Wallace for--as Governor of Alabama--um--. George and I didn't see eye to eye on--. One of the things that gets you with this is that you lose the mergeries--for 00:02:00and--and you draw a blank--um--. But we ought to be able to work on--work our way through this is. If it's gonna be transcribed, you take all that stuff out of it, so.

MUMMERT: Yeah, that's fine.

BARRON: --Um--so we'll--we'll start over with. --Um--and by the way, did--did you get that turned on again, you got a light on it?MUMMERT: Yeah, it's--it's on.

BARRON: Okay cause, I'd hate to be trying to draw it up the third time.

MUMMERT: But, anyway, you--.

BARRON: George--George Wallace was--was actually received the nomination and, at that point, it was obvious that it was time for me to go. Cause I was working in the state park system, which was where he had promised to make a 00:03:00showdown. And, oddly enough I had been introduced to the TAD program--uh--which was Tributary Area Development, the moniker that was used in and--both inside and outside TVA to describe the program. I w--was visiting the local industry in Louisburg--excuse me, Lynchburg, Tennessee, and was introduced to a 00:04:00gentleman by the name of Reagor Motlow. And Reagor Motlow was president of the Jack Daniels corporation, whatever the name of--of the entity was. But, he just was very, very excited about this new thing that TVA was coming out with. Which was gonna enable the poor counties such his to--to--uh--have a better standard of living and a higher--uh--higher--uh--group of services that would be available. I--it sounded interesting, to me but I never gave it 00:05:00another thought until after the election and then I realized I was going to be looking for a job. Because of integration, yes--um--.

MUMMERT: Why were you in--uh--Lynchburg talking to him?BARRON: I had never seen--uh--a whisky plant before--. It was--

MUMMERT: So, you were just visiting?

BARRON: It was snowing and we couldn't plant trees. We were there to--to--um--we ad--we administered the--the--um--public fishing lake program for the Alabama Department of Conservation. And we were scheduled to plant trees and it snowed and it wasn't very comfortable, to say the least. And so the forest 00:06:00ranger for Madison County, Alabama said: "Have you ever seen a whiskey distillery? Well yes, I have, I've jumped up on them in the woods. But I've never seen a--a plant as such. And to make a long story short, it turned out that the--that the f--forester for Madison country was retained by Motlow to look after some forest land he owned in Madison County, Alabama. So he gave him a report of what was going on while he was there and we left with some interesting ideas about what was happening in re--resource development and a sample of some of their good product. So, it still didn't dawn on me 00:07:00that I might to come to work for TVA because I'd always been told that they were--not gonna be expanding, that they were going to be actually we would be staying status quo and working hard at maintaining status quo. Later, I found out there had been quite a squabble in--uh--in Washington as to whether or not it would exist even. And they were looking for ways to--they being TVA and the board was looking for ways to increase the visibility of TVA and the valley and nationally and this program grew out of it. It also was a time when 00:08:00TVA was beginning to lose most of the people--many of the people that had been there originally. They had stayed long--long enough to reach retirement age or be on--involved in other things. But John Massey, who was Personnel Director, and the General Manager of the Board--um--very, very much involved in expanding the--the concept from. And I--I left out the most important person in there. I left out Miss Marguerite Owen, who was the Washington Representative, and was really the interface between the board and--and the GM and the Valley delegation.

I called m--my contact in TVA--um--Harold Van Morgan, and said: "They have--I've got a new governor coming in and we don't see eye-to-eye and I'm looking for a job, do you know of anybody that's hiring?" He said "Hell, yes I'm looking for people like you." And so, I was invited to come up for an interview. And before it was over, I had met all of the key people that were involved in 00:10:00making the decision, and the decision was made and I left with a date to come back and find housing. This--get a rest break in here and see if I can get--.

BARRON: TVA had--TVA's modus operandi was to work through all the governments and to--. Well--e--earlier I alluded to the fact that they were trying to get out of the recreation businesses a little, so everything appeared. --Uh--they were doing that to keep the land from being sold off. As you may or 00:11:00may not know, TVA was req--was generous in their land acquisition program when TVA for building the--the mains--stream dams. Because they were--they recognized the recreation potential. --Um--the administration didn't recognize it or wasn't too excited about it and wanted to sell it all off. And so they were giving it away to public organizations like T--like--uh--the state parks and--um--

MUMMERT: This would have been during the Eisenhower administration? Okay.

BARRON: Yeah. Anyway, they--they were giving it away and they sold it 00:12:00at team costs to the public organizations such as the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, and that sort of thing. Anything to divest themselves of--of the land before Eisenhower sold it, or Eisenhower's administration sold it. --Uh--so not only was that going on, but Land Between Land between the Lakes was conceptualized in TVA on the floor that we worked on. And when the board decided that was the way to go, they--um--had Miss Owen to go into the Valley delegation promoting that concept. It was--we had been--very shortly after I 00:13:00came to work for TVA, they, they being the board announced the Land Between the Lakes Program. Actually back up, Washington decided that there would be a Land Between the Lakes. And that TVA would be the administrator. As far as I was concerned, the most important thing was that we were going to have to have myself and two others, which was the limits of the staff at that time to do all the work necessary with Land Between the Lakes and maintenance of the--of the properties that we had.-- So we.--

MUMMERT: And the-- and Land Between the Lakes--uh--was that area of 00:14:00100,000 or some acres between the Tennessee River and the Cumberland River in the Kentucky and--and Tennessee?

BARRON: Right.

MUMMERT: And the lakes were--one was a TVA lake in Kentucky lake, and the other was the Barkley Lake, which was a Corps of Engineers lake just so we know where we're--what we're talking about here.

BARRON: Well--it was also--um--it helped to once--once the idea was sold, it helped to pull more political support into the project. But anyway, as far as Jack Barron was concerned, it--it made me the opportunity to become the Chief of the-- of the Recreation staff, which was something that--that was very--um--rewarding.

MUMMERT: Was that something relatively new at the time or had the recreation staff been around for--

BARRON: The recreation staff was really just an--a part of the Land Management program. --Um--I was very fortunate to--um--to have Van Morgan, as my mentor. And--and really be broken into TVA, because Van was a historian and you didn't just learn about why this property was acquired but the history of 00:16:00what went into it, if there was any interest. And old Van would probably make up a little if it was to suit his purpose. But--um--we--we grew--we were growing--um-. When--one day, I was called by the fifth floor of the new Sprankle Building, which was the location of the central management. Said Mr. Van Mol, wanted to see me. I had no idea why, but assumed it was not good. And Van Mol was the General Manager, and when he wanted you, it was usually not very good. I went up, it was on a Friday afternoon about 3 o'clock in the 00:17:00afternoon. And sit down, Jack. I sat down and he said: "You know--uh--." And the--the head of--of--um--Tributary Area Development program is seriously ill and is on sick leave and is not going to return. And we've got to have a new manager of Tributary Area Development. And you've been so critical of the way it was run and the way it was being handled that we're going to let you 00:18:00straighten it out." And--uh--I walked out and couldn't believe what was happening because I was thirty-four--thirty-five years-old and was--my peers were guys that had been around since they came to work for TVA twenty years ago or thereabouts. And--it did give me the opportunity to shape the program--or to try to shape the program into something more like it was--it was intended to be. --Um--the--.

MUMMERT: What was it intended to be?

BARRON: It was intended to be--uh--to bring--the way that the 00:19:00Chairman of the Board used to describe is to bring into the peripheral counties, those were not on the main stream--on the navigation stream, to bring those counties up to par in terms of economic and social development. And working through other organizations and at TVA independently as well. Privately, I think that Red was much--was much more interested in seeing it happen through TVA as opposed to through other entities because they'd been working at it for years and--and reached their goal. And as far as Red was concerned, this 00:20:00was--was the way it was going to be functioning.

MUMMERT: So this was an idea that--that had been around for a long time in TVA to work on--on those tributary areas, but it just hadn't come to fruition?

BARRON: It probably had its origin when--when Red Wagner who was--is Chairman at the Board, at this point in time when--when it was established was Chief of the Navigation Branch when he worked for TVA. And he was the one that conceptualized--um--where land, water, and railroads meet is a natural site for industrial development and he was--was focused on that--um--. He had 00:21:00a staff of people, who later as he moved on up into--into--uh--management, he had--um--a chance to cause things to happen that would make--make his position--would strengthen his position but there were a lot of times when things did not m--materialize in the--in the fashion that he expected them to. But as far as--as far as I'm concerned--um--what I had to do was to instill into--um-- into the staff--the Tributary Area Develo--Tributary Area 00:22:00Development staff what we were trying to do and how we were going to do it. And this meant causing some people to make a 180 degree turn. They didn't--didn't buy the idea, but wouldn't go for somewhere else. Sayed with the organization I guess thinking they would change. But I found out very quickly we had two types of people; the ones who wouldn't quit until it was done, and those who and--and they were really focusing on bringing economic prosperity to the counties that they were assigned to as opposed to making a paper inventory of what the resources were, which was simply a gathering of--um--all the printed 00:23:00material that was available for that particular county or and pulling out pertinent information and publishing another, book which is not gonna feed many people. --Uh--.

MUMMERT: So how--you became the head of Tributary Area Development. How did you analyze the conditions in those areas to determine what needed to be done?

BARRON: Well, it has been analyzed to death. --Um--what--what TVA was 00:24:00hoping to do was to get things that needed to be done underway with TVA participation, both with staff and with monies. --Um--things that maybe were falling just sort of being sellable, but with--um--$2 or $3,000 dollar boost would get them through a couple of years and--and--uh--get--get them off their feet. --Uh--I spoke of Marvis Cunningham as an example earlier. Marvis was the--the granddaddy of full stream on the Hiwassee and the _____. And 00:25:00he stayed with it and he kept saying: "If I can't get a few more locals involved, I'm going to need some money to get them to--have you get them to feel like your--you, TVA are absorbing some of the risk." I had money, had--Lord knows, plenty of money, because I was taking it away from people who--who wouldn't play ball with us and try to do what we were trying to accomplish. I was--other than the--the dams and the and the--um--steam plants--um--and a couple of other things, I was essentially doing the same thing that I 00:26:00did later on when I was Assistant Manager and--and had--um--had all of the--um--activities under my fiscal control. --Um--let's cut it a minute.

MUMMERT: Well the--the Tributary Area Development program would deal with a lot of, not a lot, but the different tributary areas in the Tennessee Valley and they--uh--all probably had their challenges and--uh--con--diff--difficult conditions to deal with. --Uh--could you talk a little bit about what 00:27:00some of the activities were, some of the program efforts that--uh--you were behind to--uh--help those--uh--tributary areas and--and counties--um--out with their development?

BARRON: Well, you have to look first and for a second at the org--organizational structure of the program. For--for some reason or other the board or principal staff decided that they would work on the tributary basis and not on the--on the--um--political subdivision basis. So that you have--you'd walk into Blount County and be talking to them about something that would--um--would be partially in the county and partially outside the county. And so 00:28:00we--we had to turn TAD staff and the people in the other organizations that were--other TVA organizations that were responsible for TAD in their organization--um--we had to get their thinking around to--to--um--forget about where the water runs and forget that sort of thing and think about where the money is and where the political control is. Because, it w--wouldn't necessarily behoove the mayor or the county judge in such and such a county to--um-- put up money for a project that didn't contribute to the 00:29:00whole or at least to the majority of the whole. --Um--so back to your point, when you walked into--Sequatchie County, poor county right on the--on the riverbanks, on the mainstream, but was l--left out of what was going on primarily I think because the major employer in that--in Sequatchie was--was companies in Chattanooga. And you add the--the commuter from one 00:30:00county, two counties away going in and taking work in Chattanooga and recognizing the technology focus that was developing and was gonna continue to develop would been--be even a secret of what in some places is a success and--or not. --Um--they had to have training in the schools for the rising workforce to be of any value and to be sellable in Chattanooga.

Excuse me, I--that was--part of that was based on the inventory of 00:31:00resources in a development of dir--the development of a direction of effort. But here's what, as our number one--uh--objective to have the school's ability to teach students who would be marketable in Chattanooga. Looking into it a little deeper, I found that there really wasn't enough per capita, well not per capita but there-- there was not a sufficient number of students in the 00:32:00entire system of these three counties to afford to teach anything but the basics, reading, writing, arithmetic and so on. So, we kept looking for ways to bring more money in. One of the ways that we did was, I stumbled onto a--a gentlemen in--a some meeting that was d--dealing with the economic development. It turned out to be the economic development head for the--um--Rockefeller Foundation. What a pity.

MUMMERT: You stumbled across him in the Tennessee Valley or?

BARRON: It was in--it was in a meeting probably in Atlanta, it could have been here. He was there for the same purpose I was, he was learning--he was but he had--he had a back pocket that was--was full and overflowing and was looking for ways to put money into the hands of people that could--could do things. He committed to support for the Hiwassee--for the Sequatchie program--uh--early on. Conditioned on enough other outside money as well and agreed to be a spokesman on our behalf of the Ford Foundation. --Uh--so that's one way we--we got things going, we waited long enough, we had it all put together. And to give 00:34:00you some dimension of time, I had retired by the time they had the program ready to fly and it never did fly because the three cou--three county entities couldn't agree on a name for the football team. Now, when you write a textbook about community development, there needs to be a chapter devoted to athletic--um--what's a good word? The--the ath--the about how 00:35:00athletics in--influences decision making in some places. --Um--had another project like that in South-- in Southwest Virginia. And their inventory was very firm in picking up the fact that there was a shortage of industrial sites in Southwest Virginia. If you've ever been up there, you know why, they--um--they don't have any flat land at all except where they've flattened out in a strip mine. --Um--but that's okay, the football field is on strip mining land, the county courthouse is on the strip mining land. --Uh--if you use it as 00:36:00a tool, which we had suggested they do early on--um--it's okay. But any rate, here the only feasible site for putting in an industrial plant or something similar was in the valley of one of the creeks, one of the major creeks, I forget the name of it. But, there was no way to protect it with a dam or a couple of dams. --Uh--the way that it was gonna fly would be to get the houses and the highway that was there relocated out of the floodplain. --Uh--as a consequence we--we sold that concept to them, and-- and it was sold in 00:37:00turn in--in--uh--in Washington and we got the money to help re--relocate families and relocate and highways and so forth. It was done the local entity--uh--which I didn't point earlier. Some--some of these tributary areas were able to have paid staff to--uh--work with us on a regular basis, a day-to-day--by-day basis. And also to know how to handle the local politics--um--.

MUMMERT: What was that area or town? Duffield, okay.

BARRON: Duffield. Duffield exists today, and I took my wife up there to see the place, and--it was a thriving little community by the time we got 00:38:00around to getting up there and looking at it. --Um--.

MUMMERT: But you actually moved--uh--people like out of the floodplain or wherever this?

BARRON: We--we bought the house and demolished it or moved the houses to a--above the 100-year flood and--um--put in the infrastructure for the--an industrial park. And--um--

MUMMERT: And moving the people, did TVA provide all the relocation assistance?

BARRON: No, the locals did that. --It was basically a local project with TVA support. When it was--when the issue was local, it was a TVA project, 00:39:00when we went to Washington to get monies for our share of it. But--um--.

MUMMERT: How about any other, some other examples of some other tributaries or some other types of--uh--work that was done?

BARRON: We--we--we dabbled in anything that we thought would--would make a better place to live. You know, we also would--.

MUMMERT: Well, I know you did because before this I--interview I--I've heard all sorts of stories about things that were done under Tributary Area Development.

BARRON: We--we--um--we made--we made work fun. --Um--the--um--the program that--that was most interesting was the outgrowth of one of our 00:40:00staffers being approached by a local government and saying--um--we are trying to make this--we're trying to capitalize on the beauty of this county, and we--littered with abandoned cars, trucks, tractors, whatever. And we need to collect them at a central point and sell them. --Um--our engineers designed a modification to a ton and a half truck, which would enable a driver to--um--go and pick up--um--a--an abandoned vehicle single handedly. And one man could drive it, c--connect it to the--to the conveyance and--and drop it 00:41:00off at a central point. Another one--another one of our people designed a--um--a flowchart so--so to speak, for a lack of a better term. A--um--collection chart that would m--minimize the mileage involved and would bring in enough cars into a central point where a junk dealer could afford to come in and pick it up.

That program jumped into national significance. --Um--it was very successful and ended up with--uh--an award from Keep America Beautiful for that 00:42:00program, which I was lucky enough to go out and communicate with the governor's staff of California, who was therefore, stretched in terms of its significance. And it was the cheapest thing in the world two days probably, or three days of two guys and they had put together a couple of concepts which was enabling us to--to get some--some--uh--response and--and have--have an impact on--on--um--the property that on the--the state.

MUMMERT: Now what--what county was it that first--uh--began that or 00:43:00came to you and said they needed to beautify themselves, do you remember?

BARRON: --Um--I'm almost sure it was--another county and I can't and--and it won't come out. --Uh--Meigs--Meigs County. --Um--of course there now, it's fat city with payments from--uh--the--uh--nuclear plants. They don't need to worry about having enough money to get something going, but they were poor as they were--could be.

MUMMERT: I've he--also heard through the grapevine that--uh--that trailer that was designed had been--or has been patented and it is now a 00:44:00widely-used trailer nationwide. Are you aware of that?

BARRON: No, I'm not aware of that, but I'm delighted to hear it.

MUMMERT: I think that's correct.

BARRON: Well, that's--that's good to know. That make my day. We--um--we tried a couple of things that didn't work, a handful of them that didn't work and didn't work before. Because I encouraged everybody to come forward with what they thought was a need or not necessarily with any idea in mind of how to--that need would be met. --Um--here's--the here's the need, you--you find a way to get it--get it done.

--Um--we hired a--first of all we-- we kept coming up with the 00:45:00question, well what--what do you have for these high school kids? They--they need to get the work concept, they need to be a participant in what's going on. And--um--so we hired a young lady right out of UT. She was a--matter a fact she was a part time Master's p--rogram candidate, who worked initially for us. And she was dedicated to programs for, I forget now the--the name but anyway it was--it was a concentrated effort on her part in three different counties: one very poor, one very comfortably rich and one in between. And she 00:46:00couldn't find anything much that would be successful. The--were trying to find a way to put pocket money in their--in their hands instead of relying on mama and papa to come up with the cost of whatever it was they were after. --Uh--we--c--we couldn't get it off the ground, but she came up with a project that flew, and that was registering to vote. The kids were not interested in the fact that they were coming of age to be able to vote and what that 00:47:00meant and what it didn't mean and--um--I made the mistake of commenting on that to, gee that was a boring one, and it was quickly decided that that was too political. It really--TVA didn't have any business in that, which we didn't--uh--but--um--I did get some activity going on, and stirring it.

The best one of all was when they closed that dam, you mentioned two rivers and they closed the dam at--um--Nashville on the Cumberland, they eliminated the need for a ferry boat that the county had been running for--on behalf of the state for years. And we had been working with the poor counties up 00:48:00in--in Upper East Tennessee, Grainger, and primarily it was all of the--all three--uh--and for the life of me, I can't recite the three of them but--.

MUMMERT: Well, prob--Hancock, and Hawkins, probably.

BARRON: Yeah, thank you. --Um--the--the concept was finally developed that the kids were the--the impoundment of Norris had blocked off the major communication route into the central--into the county seat. And kids were having to ride an hour, and an hour and a half on a bus, front end and back end, 00:49:00anywhere from two to three hours of their life riding the bus everyday. And people who lived in the separate areas had to go over into the other county to get back to the county seat for whatever purposes.

MUMMERT: They're still doing it in South Blount County, where I live. Sorry for interrupting but. Because of the configuration of the national park and some of those hills and valleys.

BARRON: Yeah well, what happened here was, out of the clear blue sky, on a Monday morning, one of the staff walks in the door and says: "I got the f--the--uh--float project fixed up here are the papers for the float the--the--um--the boat. --Um-- I was in--I was in Nashville over the 00:50:00weekend and they had a sale of surplus property. And I bought it up--I got $50,000 dollars in it and I need to get paid, I need to sell it to TVA real quick." And the bank is gonna hold the check for him until they get something straightened out. But we--we got in the ferry building business. --Um--but here again, we're invited to go find some less risky ground, we wouldn't have to worry with the Coast Guard and all of the legislation that involves running a ferry. But the fact that--that our guy saw a chance to solve a problem was--um--worth a million to me because he was willing to put up his 00:51:00own money, temporarily. He's the guy who came up with the Sequatchie school concept as well. It's funny, you would expect certain people in the group to--to come up with more and more of the ideas on how to solve their problem or somebody else's problem. --Uh--

MUMMERT: You were the head of Tributary Area Development for how many years?

BARRON: I was looking for that information last night and couldn't--couldn't come up with it. But it was about f--four years.

MUMMERT: And that was in the 1970s?

BARRON: In the 70s, yeah. --Um--I was trying to think if Pete Claussen--uh--H. Peter Claussen was the guy who succeeded me, and he's the guy who did the barn raising, with this, couple of things worthwhile mentioning. The people outside of the Tributary Area Development staff in TVA were interested in what was going on, were envious of what was going on. And--um--we had--um--a group that was willing to work on their own time to do things that were needed to be 00:53:00done. --Um--Claussen wanted to test the concept, so he--uh--provided the--the funds and the--the direction to--uh--get the volunteers from TVA to come on a Saturday and have a good old-fashioned barn raising. And--um--it did two things, it created a barn for a couple who needed it badly, and it was a--a beautiful example of how people can make things happen when they're not even directly connected. --Um--the barn raising was--um--was a--um--nationally 00:54:00recognized effort, I think. It certainly got a lot of--lot of play in the region. --Um--and another group, again similar situation, except we didn't need a ferry, but we needed a--a bridge. --Uh--this was in southwest Virginia and the staffer who was overlooking the project--uh--before it was--before it came to pass, from the--working for the concept--uh--was that he was an 00:55:00engineer he--he was--had been city manager of--of a Kentucky, thriving little--little town, but he--he just didn't have enough room to--to dabble in this, that and the other. And he dabbled in--in--um--the idea of a gravity-based well, I--design a piers for a--a--uh--bridge which would be based on--on piers that were easily poured and you could do it with the county's 00:56:00equipment, their bulldozer, and their--uh--other equipment that was used for--um--building, maintaining roads and other stuff like that. But anyway, to--to the point, he got his buddies in engineering to work on their spare time. Well actually, not on their spare time, but it was lunch hour--um--to design a pier that would hold this bridge and it wouldn't cost a lot of money and could be put in with equipment readily available. That came after my time, it started while I was there, I don't--but I wasn't there when it was finished so I don't know all the details on it. They did complete the bridge, they did 00:57:00demonstrate that it would do what they--they had hoped it would do. But the key question is is it still there and is it still being used. I don't know.

MUMMERT: And--and where was this, or--or what county? But it was used primarily to help the kids get to school faster so they didn't have to go all the way around?

BARRON: It was in--it was in--Lee County, I think, Virginia.

MUMMERT: But it was used primarily to get to--to help--uh--kids get to school faster or anyone--? Anybody. So they didn't have to go way out around?

BARRON: --Anybody--anybody that was going, didn't have to go around, they would go straight across on the new bridge. It washed out at one time, I know, because they had to change the design on it. But--um-- it--it--it got a 00:58:00bridge. It is now br--a--an engineered bridge.--Um--one day I went to--uh--Norris one day to visit with the Forestry Group to see what they were doing. And--uh--it happened to be lunch hour, and here were five or six women who are sitting there playing with pots and pans and little seedlings--uh--on their lunch hours. And they were actually moving--uh--they were--were tissue culturing plants that were valuable for the market that were in 00:59:00demand but lacked in availability. And they--they were building these--they were making these little seedlings to--uh--get out into--uh--the nursery business so that people could--could--uh--avail themselves of them and it wouldn't be otherwise. And the point being, that they were doing it for nothing, but--uh--the idea was to--to have--have it--an entrepreneurial project. --Um--there were a lot of things we learned that were positive, there were a lot of things that we--uh--didn't learn that we should of--.

MUMMERT: Well you--so you m--entioned--uh--inds--some industrial development, improving people's access in--in difficult places, the--uh--junk car removal--uh--the barn raising. Were there any other sorts of things that you might remember that were a little bit different?

BARRON: I must not.

MUMMERT: --Uh--Jack you began by talking about your meeting with the head of--uh--Jack Daniel's and mentioned that he had an interest in the Tributary Area Development program? And I just--just was wondering whether his area ever--uh--benefited from the--the Tributary Area Development program or whether he was--became involved in any way.

BARRON: Well, Lem Motlow was very prominent in the state government and had influence on--well put it another way, he--he supported-- uh--things 01:02:00that were--uh--directly involved or indirectly involved in--um--in resource development, if you--if you change the term--the--the question to, was he involved in anything that had to do with what TAD was supporting. Yes--um--but it would have been probably in--indirect as opposed to direct just pick up the phone and call the head of the Highway Department and say: "Hey, you guys flan flanged one of our people--one of our supporters into buying a danged 01:03:00ferry boat and now, I want you to." I'm playing with you but, I was sitting here thinking yesterday about what this might entail and w--what--what was the outcome looking off from a vantage point of this much time passed. Cause there is no Tributary Area Development program in TVA. I can't even remember when it--when it disappeared. And I think--.

MUMMERT: I can probably tell you more about that after the interview. Because, see I came at TVA in 1980, right when--uh--changes were occurring and 01:04:00I worked at lot with people that had been in the TAD program and were very frustrated or--uh--you know, in new positions and--uh--things continued on for a while, but--uh--we're recording this, I'll tell you later, and we're gonna cut this part out of the transcript. But go ahead--uh--.

BARRON: Yeah because, I'll add to what you've got.

MUMMERT: Alright.

BARRON: Not here.

MUMMERT: Yeah but, anyway. The--the--th--he--uh--we won't talk much more about the--uh--TAD program--uh--. And I---what I'd like to do is--is jump ahead then to your next--uh--career at TVA which was when you were Assistant to 01:05:00the General Manager in--uh--Planning, and Budgeting and Systems. What did--what did that--uh--entail? Why did you make the jump from TAD to that position? Did you get promoted, was TAD fading away or were there personnel changes?BARRON: Doing the things the General Manager didn't want to do. --Um--I was--was responsible--.

MUMMERT: Excuse me, but before that, why did you make the jump from the--uh--Tributary Area Development to that position? Did you get promoted, or was TAD fading away--uh--were there personnel changes?

BARRON: No, no. --Uh--I think they were still trying to find the definition of the Tributary Area Development in TVA. --Um--Claussen succeeded me 01:06:00and they did some--some good things. I tried to stay away as much as I could from getting too involved just to give Peter the room to do his thing. And--um--so I can't give you any any examples, but I can tell you the--from the--from the other aspect--from the General Manager's job looking down--um--there were not, well I think we started talking up front about--I started talking up front about--um--being--working through government--lo--local government. --Um--and by the time I left, I think we had pretty much 01:07:00made that change but they still had to pick up and re--reconceptualize Tributary Area Development on county--on a political subdivision basis. --Um--.

MUMMERT: Well, and that--and that was a period too I suspect looking back when--uh--the--uh--local governments were beginning to find or get resources from other places because of LBJ and--and also there were regional development districts being formed, there was a whole new and different--uh--institutional structure in the outside world. Which I guess TVA had to be aware of.

BARRON: T--TVA was not didn't--did not give it any--didn't--didn't 01:08:00give it any attention, really, early on. And I think the example I used, or the--or the first time it was mentioned and were changing was when I would say Van Mol called me in and said: "You don't like the way it's being run, you--you fix it." They didn't know how they were--what it was gonna do. The--number one stay out of trouble. Number two--um--keep something on the burner all the time. And number three--um--bring in significant--uh--bring in entities that--well entities that's not a good terms--bring--get things done on a--on 01:09:00a--let them graduate to a higher level--uh--. I'm not very articulate at the moment but anyway that--that's probably understandable. --Um--when I came in, was early on, I think Tributary Area Development was less than two years-old. --Um--agriculture in two or three other national--federal government agencies were involved in the same kind of thing, so we spent a lot of time 01:10:00yeah yeah and back and forth with who was responsible for what and so forth. --Um--when--when I moved to the General Manager's office, we were still being funded pretty much on the basis of what we asked for. --Uh--.

MUMMERT: This was f--from Congress--from Congressional appropriations?

BARRON: Yeah, and I was--was in fat city--uh--as they say for a while there because we were--it was expected that--that action would--would follow financing and from the time you got the appropriation til the time you got the 01:11:00project running full boil, would--would be a couple of years sometimes because at the same time you had, trying to get the ear of the county judge so and over here was the--the--uh--the county agent who'd been there all the time and went to church with him and so forth. --Uh--so it was a--it was a rough, rough road to hold but I think that it served a purpose which was as much as anything else to keep TVA's in front of the--the people in the Valley--uh--enough to get the support that would--um--would be needed to continue. And--and I'm 01:12:00anxious to see how--how it will spend its last days.

MUMMERT: Well you were--so you became--you were Assistant to the General Manager--and when did that--when did you began that position, about?

BARRON: About f--four years into the time I was at TVA. It was a pretty q--pretty quick thing.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Got '74, '75, honey? When did you come to TVA cause you did the recreation--.

MUMMERT: 1962.

BARRON: '62.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: And you did recreation for a couple of years or more and then you went to TAD and did about four years. So it probably was '72, '73.

BARRON: Probably, I'm-- I'm all.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: You were Assistant General Manager when I met you and I came to TVA in '75 and I had to hang your pictures in your office. Cause I was interior designer in the towers and that was in '77, '76-'77 move in.

BARRON: That was your--your fault that thing on. I'm not gonna say what I was gonna say, I'll--I'll say it when I know that the machine is not recording.

MUMMERT: But anyway, in your position as Assistant General Manager, what other than doing things the General Manager didn't want to do, basically what was the gist of that--.

BARRON: I was the legs un-between the Congress and--and--uh--particularly the--uh--the--the org--organizations that--uh--were--um-- not 01:14:00organizations but governmental entities that were affected by us, by TVA. --Um--I was also liaison with OMB (Office of Management and Budget)--um--along with the Washington rep who was--um--along with rep--rep--Washington Representative who was--living there full time and was responsible for the day-to-day relationships between TVA and the Congress and OMB. --Um--it was--um--a situation where we worked very closely together and I think contributed to each other you know in a way that was--was valuable to--to--uh-- me and to--uh--the Washington rep at the time.

MUMMERT: And who was that?

BARRON: It was Larry Calvert--um--most of the time. I also worked with other organizations we--we--we maintained--uh--a--a good relationship with the representative of the--uh--Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation as after I left and after Pete was-- became the entrepreneur. --Um--one 01:16:00of the most interesting aspects of--of that time with--in Washington was when I was still no--I was--I was in the GM's office but there was a chunk of money, a--a good-sized amount of money appropriated to expedite the--um--ex--expedite the--I'm gonna have to stop on this one.

MUMMERT: Okay.

BARRON: Agencies were advised by OMB that there was money available for research and energy conservation or energy utilization. Now I used that in lieu of what I can't come up with at the moment. But it was anything that had to do with--with energy use or the--the--um--con--conservation of en--energy which is the same thing. Anyway--um--I was the meeting yore in Washington. I would literally would unless it was something that the lawyers were involved or something of that sort-- um--but this was--was my alley because it was simply making the 01:18:00case for appropriation. --Um--we had an in--an--initial meeting of representatives of the various federal agencies involved, I think there was seven or eight of them. --Um--the second meeting was one cut down staff--um--but pretty high in the organization that they represent. --Um--I was kind of over in the corner then, I didn't see much, I was listening and you find out much more with your ears than you do with your tongue. --Um--the--after the 01:19:00second meeting, there was a--kind of an informal around the group what they were doing currently in energy conservation. And when they got to me everybody--everybody that had reported had reported that we're contemplating or we're working toward or we're--we're--we're thinking about or whatever. And I said: "We are raising catfish in the raceway--um--from the cooling towers at our nuclear plant. Oh, come on. Tell you what, we got us a meeting next 01:20:00week scheduled, you come to lunch and TVA's hosting a luncheon for you and your principal, the person you report to. --Uh--and we're gonna have catfish from the raceway." And I took the catfish to the chef at--I can't think of the name of the hotel. Down there it's the one right--at--anyway it's the place, it was the one in Washington.

MUMMERT: At the Willard? At that time?

BARRON: I think it was. Anyway, they didn't believe me and I--I shipped some catfish up to the chef and told him do what you want with them, and tell me what you think is best, the way to prepare them and so forth. And--um--so he came in and spoke to the group when it was into and they were really into their fillets and catfish and--um--said: "That is one of the best fish I ever had." Said: "I've never--never dealt with catfish, but this delicious, beautiful to work with and nice thing about it you can slice it any way you want and it compliments it." And--um-- I can't show you where I--I can't tell you 01:22:00that it comes from a--from a water out of a steam plant but if that's what it takes, then it's--it's worthwhile. But anyway, we had a--we had a lunch on a catfish that was the only thing going on in the government in the way of research at the time. They--they were--they were--would talk about. So, but it was a--the whole thing was an interesting experience.

MUMMERT: And you became--uh--wh--this when you were still the assistant to the GM or? Okay, then you became Washington Representative yourself or?

BARRON: No, I was Washington Representative when I--when I retired.

MUMMERT: When you retired? How long was that stint?

BARRON: Well, you deal with in terms of--term of office--.

MUMMERT: Well, years or--?

BARRON: No, who--was was in office at--at the time--um--when this is off, I'll tell you.

MUMMERT: Who was the--who was in the office--who was the--you mean in Washington.

BARRON: No in the--in the board.

MUMMERT: Oh, okay. How--but you were there for how many years?

BARRON: I spent three years at Oak Ridge, working for DOE, came back and spent the rest of my time here--um-- measured how long it was in terms 01:24:00of--of when one of the board members went to his reward, whatever that might be. --Um--so there was a three year absence in there where I was--was commuting to Oak Ridge everyday and could have done any number of things if I had wanted to use the influence of some of the people I had worked with.

MUMMERT: --Uh--I think I'm going to wrap the interview up, but I have one more question for you, and this may be the most difficult one. Are there 01:25:00any--uh--questions that I didn't ask you that you wish I had?

BARRON: No, I don't think so. If we're gonna play wish, I wish that I had had this interview three years ago or four or five years ago b--before I was afflicted the Parkin--the-I can't even tell you the name of the thing.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Parkinson's.

BARRON: Parkinson's Disease.

MUMMERT: Well, we can--uh--take a look at the transcript and you'll have a chance to add some things if you'd like and you can take--.

BARRON: Sometimes I think better than I talk.

MUMMERT: Well, we all do that.

BARRON: S--sometimes it's the reverse.

MUMMERT: Anyway Jack, I'd like to thanks for your--thank you for your 01:26:00time. And--uh--this has been most interesting to--uh--hear about your career at TVA.

BARRON: Well, thank you, it was a pleasure to--it was a pleasure.