Interview with Larry Colaw, October 11, 2018

MUMMERT: Uh--the following is an oral history interview conducted as part of the Tennessee Valley Authority Retirees Association oral history project. The person being interviewed is Larry Colaw.[1] Mr. Colaw is a retiree of the Tennessee Valley Authority. He worked at the TVA for 27.5 years, between April 1960 and October 1987. He is being interviewed by Phillip Mummert, as part of the oral history project. The interview is being--is taking--is being conducted at Mr. Colaw's residence at Tellico Village, Tennessee. Today is Thursday, October 11th, 2018. And the interview is now beginning. Well, good morning, Larry and thanks for--uh--taking the time to do this. What I'd like to do to begin with is ask you to describe what the circumstances were 00:01:00that led to your being hired at TVA.

COLAW: Uh--I--uh--was--a--uh--a civil engineering graduate at Penn State, and many of the courses I took were related to water resources and planning. Um--I was in the--um--commissioned to the United States Air Force. Um--and was serving in--um--Columbus, Mississippi, and I had decided that--um--um--I--I was a reservist so really I didn't want to stay in for twenty years. So, fortunately for me, Mississippi State was just a short distance to the air base at Columbus. I went over there and their--their--uh--uh--graduate office there--their office--uh--was very helpful--uh-- even offering to set up interviews 00:02:00for me and so I always appreciated that. Um--I had followed TVA a little bit when I was in at Penn State, and so--um--of course I put--um--applications in to many companies, one of which being Penn State--uh--um--TVA and--um--I was offered several jobs, none of which I really wanted to do. But I did get the letter from Penn State--and--uh--excuse me again--uh--TVA and they offered me a job. And I you know, I thought that was interesting and no interview. But they were hiring several new people--um--at that period. Um--they hired me and I went into Water Control Planning, working for--at the--my--head-my section head at that time was Jack Rozek. And we would run into each other several times during my career. Um--I worked for them for--uh--several years I mean 00:03:00at--uh--uh--project planning. During that time--uh--I worked on the planning for--uh--Tellico Reservoir--uh--dam. Um--Tim's Ford, and several small ones up near--uh--um--Kingsport. Uh--and also we had--uh--Columbia Dam which I didn't work on being planned and--um--as you know--um--two of them were built. Um--then about that time the environmental movement got rolling at the federal level and so, if you had a project, you had to have a benefit-cost ratio for it. Well, I was assigned in my section there, in project planning to be involved in that. Well, first of all, that you had to, folks in the TVA had to figure 00:04:00out what was a benefit. Of course many of the historical things were the benefits. But there was no slide rule for telling you what they were worth. So part of my time I spent was assigned to figure out--uh--just the best way we could whether recreation, or--or--uh--power or whatever, land's use. Um--it was sort of a, well what do you think kind of thing in those days. But, I was assigned to that, spent quite a bit of time on that, and it actually lead to some of my other things at TVA. Uh--at the sort of the end of part of my time at Project Planning--uh--um--Jack Rozek was--uh--given a pretty good-sized promotion and went on over to--in the General Manager's office. Um--Jack near the end of my time at--uh--at Project Planning, Jack--uh-- selected me 00:05:00and three or four other people at TVA and asked me to lead the group to try to figure out--um--um--in some way how you might increase the actual benefits of different programs in TVA. Well, we spent a year doing that, and I must say, that--uh--we weren't much further along because--uh--each program protector, the manager thought his was the best. Well it ended up that they looked at it and said thank you after a year and actually the--the situation was and has always been at TVA. Power ruled the roost. And--um--so--um--from there--um--I worked for--went back to the Division of Water Con--Control Planning working for the General Manager for a year, or the director--of--of that. And--um--I--I did a study where--um--added--trying to add up how the different 00:06:00departments in state government and TVA could work together on enhancing the benefits or using the benefit programs at TVA. Um--th--that ended after about a year it was published but--uh--I have no idea whatever happened to it. At that point, I was offered by a job by--uh--Mike Foster in Navigation Development and Regional Studies. And the--the staff was--on--a small staff, I think there were four other--uh--four or five other major people and of course they had some support people.[2] And the rest of my re--career--uh--was in Navigation and Development and Regional Studies. I had some, I worked with--uh--a certain area in the Tennessee Valley Region, to help with industrial parks--uh--de--designing them. Bob _____'s group was--uh--the engineering people there, and Bob was one that did a lot of that work in his group. 00:07:00Um--but--um--as--as well you know, they--they built--uh--Tellico and they built--uh--Tim's Ford--uh--they did not build Columbia. And that's when kind of the environmental movement got rolling in this country and it was disorganized but it was fairly influential.

MUMMERT: Now w--when you began at TVA--uh--when and where? You were in Knoxville?

COLAW: Yeah, I always--was always in Knoxville.

MUMMERT: And when--uh--did you start?

COLAW: I started in April--you have it there--in April of 1960. And--I--uh--went, and it's in there too--uh--uh--when I went--over to--uh--Navigation and Development and those dates.[3]

MUMMERT: I'm going to be asking some questions that you know that I already have the answer to.

COLAW: And I think I said that Mike Foster was the head of that. Um--during that time--um--Jim Gober was there and he was in the planning section, 00:08:00which was in Navigation and Development and Regional Studies. Jim was a quite a unique fellow, and he was a planner. And he started--uh--planning what became, it was called Timber Lake because of the lieutenant, British lieutenant was the fellow that discovered the t--Little Tennessee River. And--um--and--um--so I was assigned with Jim, there was just two of us, but we were assigned to--um--um--work on the Tennessee you know, new community. And during that time the national level was they were Romney was--well I forgot what the secretary was but Housing and Urban Development or what. Yeah--and--um--he--um--so that was their goal. And so Jim and I worked on that quite a while in fact, that--I worked on that or something connected with it for some years off and on. Um--we published--a--um--a report--um--several companies-see--we went 00:09:00on a--a---a--some companies inquired. The Boeing Company, aircraft company, finally said well want to divest some of our money, investments into 50% aeronautical, 50% otherwise. So, they sent a team of--uh--four I think, four or five people to Knoxville, and--th--working with us. And we worked about a year and turned out the--uh--uh--Timber Lake project. It was a community, there is a published report of that and all, I don't know if you've seen or not. But--um--and to make a long story short--uh--they were gonna be--we were gonna--they were gonna be the master developer and TVA would have 00:10:00some sup-- responsibilities like building some major water lines, powerlines, things like that and some roads. Um--we had an ag--well we had a letter of understanding--um--probably no one knows this, but--the--it went to the board, or it went to--uh--Mr. Wagner at the time. And--um--um--I was told by Mike that--um--he--he--um--he just didn't, the way he put it, he just couldn't pull the string. And so we--uh--Boeing packed up and went back and their staff back to--uh--Washington.[4]

MUMMERT: Now, at this point, did--uh--was there a location selected for Timber Lake?

COLAW: Yeah, that's what Tellico is--uh--Village was called. The whole project here was called Timber Lake at the time, the industrial, everything.[5]

MUMMERT: Okay, let's, I want to fill in--the--some context here, 00:11:00the--uh--because you've mentioned Tellico Dam you've worked on the reservoir--the planning. Uh--you've also mentioned the Little Tennessee River and then Timber Lake. Um--they all--t--were somehow together right.-- The--uh--that's my understanding, yeah.

COLAW: The Tellico River, that's the main river. The--the Little Tennessee River comes in up at--uh--Vonore. Where the--used to be--uh-where the state park is.[[ footnote]]6[[/footnote]]

MUMMERT: Where is Vonore?--Is that near Knoxville?

COLAW: It's 441, if you go south of here--uh--it's about 10 miles. And--uh--it's still a little town, always was, but they are incorporated now.

MUMMERT: So, but TVA was planning to build the dam and--uh--make the reservoir, and because of the times that you and Jim Gober were working 00:12:00in--uh--having a--uh--a new community sounded like it might be a great idea for--for this whole new reservoir.

COLAW: [7]Uh--then a turning point came. Um--Dave Freeman--um--became the--the--replaced Wanger. And--um--he was not for the Tellico project at all. And that was about the same time that the movement for really--uh--you know, the snail darter was here, supposedly, which they never, ever found but it was these national organizations. We had people come to the hearings on--uh--for the project--um--from Sierra Club, just you--just name it, they were here. Um--.

MUMMERT: How far had you gotten in the planning--when--when-- when 00:13:00Freeman came?

COLAW: I be--I don't know exactly but it was either right when Freeman first came or just before he came. But anyway, TVA to one of the committees in Washington--uh--ordered TVA, it was finished, not to close the dam. So it sat there for several years not being used. Um--so that was--uh--finally--um--um--it--just give me a second here. Um--who's our congressman--Dunn-Duncan--uh--John Duncan Jr., his father was--a--our representative at that time, and he was also head of one of the committees in Washington, I don't recall. Uh--so--uh--there was a lot of discussion, a lot of local people all over the valley were--uh--interested in these dams being completed. They had these watershed development agencies at the 00:14:00st--state--local, but they were state-chartered. Um--so finally they voted in--the committee voted, and told us to close the dam. Well, the dam closed the minute the telephone call was made or the message received. It was--there are so many large dams above Tellico Dam--uh--Fontana, Hiwassee, some of those that this is a small reservoir, they fill the dam up--uh--the lake up in about 24 hours. TVA had already cleared the lake and all that was done, everything was ready to be closed, except they gave the order don't close it on the day it was planned to be closed. So--um--that's how we got the--the reservoir. Um--.

MUMMERT: And this was about when?

COLAW: Um--geez, I would have to look it up.

MUMMERT: Late 70s I guess?

COLAW: Yeah. Um--I just don't have that date. Um--but--um--Boeing was 00:15:00still here at that time and so--um--we went across wooden bridges across the creek below the dam while it was being built and--um--um to look at the land and all here. Um--so--um--let me get back to where I was. Um--at that time--um--um--Ralph Carnathan they moved Mike up in TVA to the General Manager's Office and Ralph Carnathan became the division, well they called us the division but it Division Director, he was the Division Director. Uh--so--uh we moved him around to 2 or 3 different buildings. But, after Boeing left--uh--I was sort of the Tellico guy. Well, quite frankly, being a Tellico guy, with Dave 00:16:00Freeman here was not a good idea. So I worked on the staff and kept handling different things for--uh--Tellico. And--um--um--then--um--we moved over to one of the other buildings there downtown. And--uh--we got a new director to replace Mike who was now--Dave--one of Dave Freeman's colleagues. And--uh--should I mention names. Okay, well, I mean it's no, Charlene Hurst and she was--uh--. Yeah--yeah anyway, she was kind of a confidant of Dave's. I mean it was no secret, served on some committees--uh--over the years with him. And they both felt like Tellico was not gonna make it. So--um-- that was a little 00:17:00difficult for me in her division. Um--I--I still stayed on it and developed--a--a shoreline development plan, several special assignments. Uh--then--

MUMMERT: Did you, excuse me for interrupting, did--did you at this point still maintain the ties that--uh--you have developed, with maybe state people and county people and. Cause they would have been, I would have think either--uh--very interested or very--much against.

COLAW: Well, there was some same people against it of course but you know what, that--they tried to lead you to believe there was massive--uh--outrage about the Tellico project. The main groups that were against it locally were of course--um--Alice, I think it's Melton, I think's her name. Her husband opened the Ch-Chattanooga Times I think it was--uh--it's still in operation--uh--um-- of course that newspaper was against it, a major 00:18:00newspaper. And--and the Journal in Knoxville was against it, we had two the New Sentinel and Journals at that time. One was more liberal than the other one. Um--liberal, more optimistic, maybe that was it. Anyway--um--I still had an assignment as part of that to--to work with these county--three county people for industrial development, there wasn't anything that says don't do that. And that's down near Vonore.[8]

MUMMERT: And the three--three counties were?

COLAW: The three counties officially were for it.

MUMMERT: And which--what three counties were?

COLAW: Loudon, Monroe, and--and--uh--uh--Blount. Um--they were--um--they had the Tellico Reservoir--uh--Tellico Reservoir Planning Council which was leading citizens from all three counties. And I don't remember the exact number, but you know, there were--I think there was thirty or more of them on this committee, but they were--uh--lobbying for, with Congress, and I think if I'm 00:19:00not mistaken they paid their own way on an airliner up to the hearings, right near the end there. And shortly after that's when they said close the dam. But, those people were--never got the credit they should have gotten for this project. Some of them are no longer with us and some are still around. Um--a little side story, we had a gentleman here who had a business in near the--the dam area and--uh--we were all younger at that time but--uh--he was against it. And of course of you know, some were and some just didn't like the government. But--uh--I went into his--I hadn't seen him for years, and here about six months ago, I went into his shop to buy something. I won't tell you what I bought or you'll know who I'm talking about. And--uh--he come--and I said I just wanted to say hi to him. And so they went and brought him out from the back and he sa--we were talking a little bit, good to see you, you know, all that kind 00:20:00of stuff. And then he s--he kind of raised his finger and he said: "I've got something to tell you." And I thought well--. Anyway he said: "Larry, I was wrong about Tellico project." He said: "I thought it would be just a few little houses out here or something." And he said: "I've just been amazed." Of course his business has grown greatly since Tellico came, the housing part, and that's kind of the way all the businessmen feel now. Um--um--the--um--but--um--getting back to the--uh--where we were, I still--I we located one co--a company that--uh--um--that was--um--a woodchip company, because they wanted to be on the water. And--th--that--during that time, I--I--uh--got the--uh--port site--uh--leased off to a--a group, they've never done much with it but it's still there using--uh--I had--.

MUMMERT: Excuse me for interrupting again--um-- before you go on, 00:21:00could you describe what was in the plan for--for the community or for Timber Lake or whatever it is.

COLAW: [9]Yeah okay. Of course--the--the--we didn't one much land on the north? North side of the--the reservoir, mostly just--uh--shoreline protection. Um--so south of there was all--most of the land that they purchased. There is one big tract, it's industrial land on the north side down by Vonore. 4,500 acres roughly, was gonna be the--um--the town, Timber Lake. Most of that is of course--uh--up towards Lenore city from here--uh--then there's a--nother development of housing--um--near the mountains--uh--on the--uh--upstream side of the reservoir where the--uh--which 00:22:00is--uh--part of Tellico Village, it's just another community. There's about 500 houses there. Um--there's a golf course there, there's--there's planned to be a golf course north of 411. Um--of course there's industrial area too of several thousand acres and--um--part of that was eventually--uh--at our recommendation one site you know, was to change that to--um--residential. And--um--uh--it's--it's another development, it's not called Tellico Village.

MUMMERT: Now, as you're talking you're talking about what is there now. And--what is there--what is there now is that pretty much what the original plan was?

COLAW: The villages are there.[10]

MUMMERT: So--uh--that's s--something I didn't realize that--uh--what has transpired over the last decades--uh--basically reflects the original 00:23:00plan of Timber Lake, although it's not called Timber Lake.

COLAW: [11]No--no it's called Tellico Village. Um--the--um--the--the northern part of Tellico Village. Northern? Toward--toward Lenoir City is a major part of the residential. And--um--there's two golf courses. Part of the deal was that TVA required that two golf courses would have to be built or under construction. And--uh-a--uh--community center or--uh--some such thing, which is now the--uh--uh--the big restaurant in--uh--Tellico Village. Um--they had to be partially completed. Um--that was part of the deal. And--um--Cooper's communities, from Arkansas, who was in the business 00:24:00of building those type things, a lot of that's out in Arkansas. They--uh--uh--I'm not gonna tell you exactly how they were recruited and it was done and I'm not sure I still understand the deal. But other than approving what they had to approve, TVA was not involved in finding them. Um--but they were community--uh--development people. Well, you can--if you drive around Tellico you can see what they have. There's--uh--a little over 4,000 acres are in residential, there's roughly 1,500 in industrial. And--uh--then--um--there are some pathways and things--uh--trails and things like that which were not built by TVA. It was all done by Tellico Village people and or you know, 00:25:00the industrial people. Um--I don't--I didn't look that up but we projected--uh--that was one of the studies I had to do when I was with TVA. We--we projected there'd be about 4,000 jobs there in the industrial area. Um--during--um--just based on river development in general. Um--coincidentally--it's--it's--the--the--the industrial development is probably maybe over a third, maybe a half full now. Uh--there's 4,600 jobs down there. Uh--I wasn't that much of a wizard, it just worked out that way. Uh--and it's not all developed yet. Uh--the industrial area has had some major companies. Um--Tempkin Glass is there, it makes windshields for the Ford Company. A couple of boat companies. We have a Japanese company there, they've renamed 00:26:00themselves. But when I was there--uh--when--when I worked for the Tellico Regional Development Agency--um--they make rack and pinion steering for automobiles. MARCA, which is the Matsushita Refrigeration Company of America located a huge plant there--uh-several years ago. And due to their changing management in Japan and all and their business decisions, which they decided to c--center their are off--Japan--um--um--plants, they went--they--they're--they're focusing on Singapore. So, after I left the agency re--you know, I had my retirement, they left--they--. But anyway, the--um--they recruited another major boat company for that building, which is a huge building. Um--we had a training center--we built a training center when I was there, a f--fire department. Um--there were several other lots 00:27:00that--parcels that were sold that were not built on, before I left the agency. I haven't said much about that yet. Um--and the one large tract across the reservoir is still being held--for--for--um--industrial. I personally did not think it was that good. But there is one major boat company that has built a building over there, but they're not using it yet I guess is--they built huge build--boats, and they just--uh--have not--um--they c--maintain with the agency they're still going to come there but the building's there but it's about 3/4th finished.

MUMMERT: I had asked you to explain what was in the--uh--plan and--um--you've done that and some of the--um--how that plan has become a reality. But--uh--I had--going back, you were in the progress of explaining to me 00:28:00the--uh-I guess the progression of events--well right after the--uh--reservoir was created, and--and you were talking about a woodchip mill.

COLAW: That is over it's--uh--.

MUMMERT: That was--but that was one--was that the first ind--industry?

COLAW: Yes, that was when Dick Freeman was still on the board, and Dave was still there too. Um--they--what they do is actually make particle board. So they chip all this board up and you've seen it, it's guled all together and it's--it's particle board, they use. T--that company at the time was making it for--uh--tractor trailer trucks, that was their business. The Niles Ferry industrial park I helped get started by Monroe County. And Monroe County still owns it, but it was land that we---TVA transferred to them. Uh--there are several major companies over there now. Um--I don't--can't name them 00:29:00all now but--but anyway they're it's--uh--it's--it's--it's--it employs quite a few people.

MUMMERT: Anything else you want to say about the progression of development after--uh--some of the first decisions were made?

COLAW: You mean at TVA?

MUMMERT: Anywhere.

COLAW: Well yeah, well obviously TVA was not gonna be involved in much--in--development. Uh--in fact when I came down--I came here in--.

MUMMERT: Why--why was that could you go--tell--explain to me w--did TVA not want to--.

COLAW: [12]They weren't gonna do it. They closed the dam but. So--um--and that was before he came, we had the--uh--plan with Boeing. And when they--so later on--um--uh--t--the--uh--Coopers became interested 00:30:00and I--I don't want to go into that, but it wasn't at TVA's be--effort. Um--they were--they were--they were satisfied to get s--some assistance to--um--the industrial park jobs. And--uh--uh I worked with these three counties on that when I was still at TVA. I had had Middle Tennessee when I was--um--in Alabama, when I was working in that business at TVA. Um--so while they were finding some way to give this away to someone, and--uh--they--uh--the local people--uh--finally arrived at the--uh--um--idea of getting it developed as a--uh--by a state chartered agency. Which is--t--ended up being the Tellico Reservoir Development Agency. And it's chartered--it's as--a--it's a tax free--uh--no that's not the right word, non-profit public 00:31:00corporation. And Jack--um--um--Hammontree, Hammontree, getting ahead of myself. Jack worked for us at the time at TVA, he had left the state. And--um--Jack applied for the job and got it. And so he was the--the--uh--he was--the--d--uh--executive director for this three county area. And as I say it was a tax-free--uh--non-profit organization. There's--.

MUMMERT: And--and this development agency kind of evolved from--the--the three--the three county group?

COLAW: [13]Yeah, that--the that--that the project was in. TVA was happy to transfer the land to them. And--um--Jack worked here--um--I--I don't know the exact number of years, but Jack then--uh--uh--uh--was--uh-- applied for and got the state industrial 00:32:00director's job in Alabama. And--uh--he was a Tennessee guy all the way so we never quite understood that one. But Jack was a good qualified guy. Uh--so they were--they were--uh--looking for a new executive director. And the guys that I worked down here were county executives and business people and all. Now, several of them and--uh--and I was still you know working with them on industrial development. Now of several of them I won't you know, I won't--that--that I knew and worked with--um--well I don't know if I should say that or not. Anyway, I was encouraged to--uh--apply for the job. And I was--I was,we were in the old--uh--uh--what was the building there, the old hospital building--uh--.

MUMMERT: Uh--the old Knoxville City Hall, we used to call it right?

COLAW: Yeah, I guess. We had moved to there, but we were a moving bunch.

MUMMERT: Actually it was a building that had been a number of things. City Hall--City--.

COLAW: That old hospital and several more. The buildings downstairs where the guys had their offices some of them were--were actually stables for horses. They used to say we worked down in the stables. But anyway, we were on the top floor. And--um--um--you know and I told them well I sa--this is just, you can have this in there and I--I told them that--uh--well you know, I--I wasn't real happy at TVA at the time. Um--they--um--they said well go ahead and apply you know, go ahead and ap--. So I put it in at the last day and I didn't even tell my wife about it cause I--you know, I didn't think I'd even be considered. Well, short story, I got the job. And--um-- so I was fortunate that I knew a lot 00:34:00of people here and also up at Tellico. But, and this is a fact--uh--I was told by a couple of TVAers that you know, I was still trying to use the technical assistance of TVA, cause we still had it for the industrial part. Well--um--one of my good friends came down and visited me and we were having our meeting and he said: "Now this probably is the last meeting we will have Larry." And I said: "What do you mean?" He says: "Well the--the word at TVA is--is give you people very little assistance." And--and you know that's a fact, that's what--how it was told to me and I very seldom saw anybody after that.

MUMMERT: Now was this, you retired from TVA in 1987?

COLAW: Seven, October of '87.[14] Yeah, I was down here then, I couldn't say anything more about my career on there. Um--I enjoyed most of my work at TVA. It--uh--dwindled into, I had work but it dwindled into --uh--the project that was a big deal in TVA to not going to be 00:35:00done. And--uh--I hung around a couple more years. And then--uh--um--af--after the Charlene era. And--um--until after that and then I applied, well the job came available and I applied for it. And received it. Uh--while I was in the last years in TVA--um--a--a lot of my contact work was here. But Ralph would let be sub for him in a lot of things around the valley, he was very kind to me that way, he enjoyed working for--.

MUMMERT: And this was Ralph Carnathan?

COLAW: [15]Carnathan, yes. Bill Attaway, Bob--uh--oh well--Bill Attaway and myself. Bob Watson. Several of those guys were still on the staff, but it was smaller, the industrial staff. But we--uh--I did several--several special projects for Ralph at the time and other 00:36:00parts of TVA. Mike was over in the Manager's office so I'd get a special assignment occasionally. But one of the things we did--uh--we developed the what--the Regional Information Management System, which was called RIDMS. Uh--and Jack Fortenberry--they--he was from downstairs, they assigned him to me, and Jack was a computer whiz in those days. Now the computers in those days the--the portable ones that we finally got for our staff were about the size of a small suitcase. So they weren't easy to, you know. But--we--uh--we prior to the RIDMs we--we--uh--we got--we--we worked for five or six--with five or six regional development agencies for industrial development around the TVA region. We--uh--made arrangements and obtained them and put 'em in each one 00:37:00of their offices, cause they were still doing typewriters and that kind of stuff. Um-we placed one in every one of their offices, of course I'm sure they've upgraded all along themselves, but--uh--Jack Fortenberry came--he helped me with that. Then--he--uh--we said well we've got to put something on this. I mean we were doing it for our office, so we ended up pretty well done that and we had one computer in our office that you could access with these computers we've put out in the field, to that one. So--uh--we put on that one and Jack--uh--helped developed and--and did all the heavy carrying for the RIDM system, which was a regional database. It had everything we could find it in you know, population trends--um--possible prospects, all that kind of stuff. It was pretty impressive at the time.

MUMMERT: And up to that--was that pretty much from what you understand a cutting-edge sort of thing--that TVA was doing, within the economic 00:38:00development world?

COLAW: Yeah.[16] Mmhmm. And most of the departments at that time, they did it kind of begrudgingly, but they gave us a lot of data we put in there, in census data and that kind of stuff. And--uh--census--Cynthia Simpson was in another department at that time in our office. Cynthia helped a lot on getting the data together, etc. And--uh--uh--well the only thing I know that survived after our division, disappeared here what two years ago or whatever. Um--was that the Office of Power claimed that after I left and that dissolved and they still advertise it as one of their--one of their programs, so that did survive and it's in the office of power.

MUMMERT: When RIDMS was started, you indicated that--uh--you were gonna to put that information in the hands of some of the--?

COLAW: All the st--all of the yeah you know, they--development districts. All over the states they there had those development districts that was a state effort. And the ones that were in the Valley that we worked with, that's where we put them. And there were you know--um--maybe five or six of them. I don't really recall necessarily.

MUMMERT: What did they feel about being part of that--uh--.

COLAW: They were very excited, particularly their staff that had to do any research.[17] The--the our division was doing most of the research for them and their state offices, whatever they were giving them help on. They were coming to us and we were doing the market studies and things like that for them--uh--to try to identify prospects.[18] Not that that was a great success there on prospects. But, it was out there on a national network then, and so a company, they could tell a company that they were meeting with, you can access this--any of that kind of 00:40:00information from our--our area, their area--uh--by computer. You know, it was still in the infancy stage.

MUMMERT: On--one of the reasons I asked that question though is I--I was wondering if there would've been a reluctance because in--the--that area of trying to attract industry, you have to keep some secrets as well--. Would there have been competition among the development districts?

COLAW: Well, they all had competition. These--these companies when they were looking--uh--sometimes they had a state preference, but many times they were looking for a place in the Tennessee Valley region and because--because a lot of them still needed power. And a lot of em--there was a lot of people unemployed down here still and wages were lower you know, some states--uh--you didn't have to be unionized. Uh--we--we always told them when I was with--uh-- we 00:41:00never got into that at TVA, but when I was in the development district's--uh--ecutive director here, they would ask that question. And I would say, "We're--we're not one or the other. We're--we're pro jobs and industrial development." Down here at Tellico, we have some that are unionized because one of them is owned by Ford. And then we have some that aren't. So you know, and it works out fine.

MUMMERT: Without forcing you to re--to name all of them--um--what were some of the big--uh--more significant, in your mind, industries that were--were attracted to the TVA region generally, in the last days of your, say during the 1980s when you were doing this kind of work? And maybe when the RIDMS system had been evolving.

COLAW: Well, I don't think you could give the RIDMS system for credit for that, but it was a tool.[19] Um-- well--um--in the 00:42:00TVA area, now it would be TVA power probably is the reason they came. But--uh--um--let's see--with the ones I told you about here--um--the--several of the car industries went to those states. Um--we were in the running on several major car companies well, Chattanooga you know--uh--that were eventually went to states nearby, but not in the Tennessee Valley region. Which I wouldn't say we would credit for it, but they wanted to do it like kind so it was a little--a spinoff. Uh--um--I've forgotten the name of the companies, but a major car company obviously, Toyota in Chattanooga. There was--um--one that just went to North Carolina back in those days. Was it--was it Mercedes? I don't remember, frankly. Um--the--um--um--it's just been so long, I can't tell you 00:43:00all of them. I mean you know I--I don't think TVA can take credit for all of them, but a lot of them were due to our assistance and--and of course TVA, wherever TVA power was. They came--became less competitive as time went on, I think, but I haven't been there in a long time.

MUMMERT: The--um--let's talk about your work--uh--even though you weren't a TVA employee, with the--uh--the development agency. How long did you work for the--for the development agency?

COLAW: I--I--I resigned there--I went there in '87 and I stayed 10 years. I resigned in February I think of--of--uh--'89, I think. Ten years, I'm sorry.

MUMMERT: So I assume you kind of continued to be able to do what you 00:44:00were doing at TVA in many ways?

COLAW: Oh yeah, I had, while I was the Executive Director I could tell them what to do. But--uh--I worked with TVA--some of the fellows I knew--um--you know, th--they good friends. But they eventually had the same message, we--we--uh--we can't do that for you anymore. So I just hired private consultants. We, you know, weren't a rich outfit down there, but over time--uh--you know, I--I built a high--all of the highways, when I went down there in the industrial area, for example. They just had one or--one road going in there and there was a couple of dead ends. Um-we--we filled out the road system. Now, we didn't fill anybody's driveway, but--uh--. And--um--um--we put a rail spur in. Uh--we built a training center, located several major industries that--that--. MARCA was the 00:45:00largest one, but due to their company, I guess they had change of management too. They--they decided they were going to focus on--uh--uh Singapore and that area. I guess closer to home. Uh--we built our own private office, a p--nice office. Uh--we were renting from Cooper's up here in the shopping center. Um--and--um--um--we built a port down there--uh--in the industrial area. Um--we expanded the wastewater treatment plant considerably, it was just one little--taking care of one or two industries. I said fire station, I guess. We had--we have a medical clinic down there run by Blount Memorial Hospital. Now, if any of these things have changed since I've been there, I--I this is just when I was there. Um--of course, we finally convinced--uh--Loudon 00:46:00County's Utilities to build us a regular substantial substation there in the industrial area. Since then I think they've built another one cause of the usage of it. There's several--um--we.--.

[20]After I left, Jack Hammontree is the Executive Director now. He worked for the State at one times--one time. Um--Jack is--um--they--we--took quite a risk building the training center and our new office. Well Jack as I understand it--or--uh--um-and -Jack worked out of a little. When I went into Jack's office, up here in the village, when I first took the job--uh--they had two little offices there and a little entryway. And there was only one lady there, Sue's still there. Uh--she's quite 00:47:00a--quite a good person, good dependable person. Um--there was just two of us. And--um--I said: "Well where are the files?" You know, I had looked around and didn't see anything. She said: "We don't have any." I said: "What?" She said: "Well, all the files we have are in Jack's you know, Jack's office over there." And so I walked across the hall and there's a little--uh--two drawer file sitting behind his desk. That was their files, it took me about 30 minutes to go through 'em. So that's how kind of I started. Not a lot of money--um--um--but--um--that we did have another employee that--uh--was kindy the--uh--cleaned up the rec areas, the boat docks, the ramps, and all you know, that kind of stuff. Um--well-uh--when I left we-- uh--Cooper's was 00:48:00overcharging us because it was their building we were in. Uh--I said well--I told the Board I wanted to build our own offices, because most of our activity then was down in the industrial area. Cause Cooper's was doing the rest of it. And--I--they said: "Well, go ahead if you think you finance it." Anyway, I just went to the bank in--to--in--in--uh--Loudon--um--no, Lenoir City, where I banked. And I went in, I vaguely knew the president from--he was one of these folks that was in that group of businessmen that supported and all I said: "I--I need to borrow some money. I want to build a training center and an office." So--uh--we built--uh--I think I've forgotten the size, it's 60,000 square feet or something like that training center and--um--and our office was very nice. It was--um--um--it had separate offices for everybody, and--um--a 00:49:00drafting room, and--uh--it was connected with a you know, hallway to the training center. So we--the--the--we had our board members there--meetings from there. It was ni--it's still there, it's a nice meeting. Jack Hammontree came over to state, from the state. Jack's from just across the river over here, cousin to I think of and--I--of--of Jack Hammontree. Did I say Jack Hammontree twice, I don't know. Anyway, we'll find out. Anyway--um--and--and--he came from the state and had an office in the training center and ran the training center. And we had some training going on there. Some of the companies wanted a place they could--they could--train people if they had to. And we got some equipment from the State--uh--welding and some of those kind of things. And--um-- we established a computer training center upstairs, we had 00:50:00about four classrooms I think, three or four. Um--and--um--s--o--Ron Hammontree is who I'm talking about if I didn't say that. Uh--Ron--uh--came and he handled all that, I just turned it over to him. He still worked for the state, but--but was working for us really.

MUMMERT: But the--the purpose of the training center was primarily to help--local industries?

COLAW: Local industries, but not just here.[21] And over the years, I can't recall em, we--we had for example, the Air Force Band in here for the school children, the junior highs and people like that came in. And they--they had this bus that traveled around the country showing kind of new innovations for the Air Force, and where you would eliminate shock absorbers on cars by magnetic ri--uh--I call them silver dollars. I don't know 00:51:00whether they've ever done that. But that was one of the was--just--uh--it was innovative stuff, so we tried to work with the state on that. We--we--uh--had this summer kids that worked for us with Federal money, we didn't pay 'em. Federal money that--uh--they were--that was a big thing in those days. Uh--get 'em out and put 'em to work cutting weeds or whatever. Um--we built a little pathway system around our office building down there and a bridge--wooden bridge that went across the little embankment there. And we were putting in a circle pathway system. And we got the RIDMS, not the RIDMS--um--the senior group from TVA, that started, what was it, they still are in business--um--former employees that would come out and help on projects? BVI. Yeah, Jack Rozek came out with them for the pr--pr--pr--roject on the wooden bridge and it just and showed them how to build it you know, to make sure it wouldn't fall down.

MUMMERT: As you are talking, I've just been asking myself, what--it sounds more--like you're as much, almost a municipality as a development agency, or. And--and I'm wondering what's the--what would the difference be? As you mentioned--training centers, attracting industry--uh--p--putting in amenities for the residences, and wastewater--and--.

COLAW: [22] That was--uh--that was--uh--uh--I di--don't know if I told you early on but they built the--uh--the--um--um--water plant regional ind--water plant--um--um-TASK, Tellico Area Services System, which we get water from them here. They built that on the other side, the Knoxville side of the river, down across from the port. But it was a regional area that served the region, not just Tellico Village. And it's still the primary 00:53:00water company for this end of the village. Um--uh--I help write the grant--uh--the EDA (Economic Development Administration) was involved that got them their first half-a--million bucks to start building their water plant. And you'd have to see it to--I.--. They--they started out in a little building and have a really nice facility down there now.

MUMMERT: But the--the development agency, I guess the difference with a municipality.--.

COLAW: Well, I--I got that money through the federal people, because it was still through TVA yeah.-- But it went to them, the grant went to them.

MUMMERT: The development agency though is basically--doesn't have revenue generation.

COLAW: Oh yeah.[23] Our primary source is--um--selling land in the industrial area. And--and--and they got the money from whatever their part was--um--for the Tellico Village. It was a split at TVA--uh--with--with them. TVA took some. But most of the money, I 00:54:00will say--uh--not all of it, but some of it TVA put in a reserve fund because they had built the parkway and we had the parkway. They transferred it to us in the sale, but we didn't have any money to take care of the parkway. So that was used to--uh--repair anything on the parkway and the boat ramps--the--the recreation boat ramps. So if there was a repair there, TVA would say, just do it you know or--and then we would do it. And of course if they--if we--we got some input from TVA early on but, as I said earlier, the instructions were under Dave--uh--Freeman to not give us anymore help because he was against it. So we pretty much, that's about the time I came down here and that was you know when I said, "Well, what do we do now?" Of course, TVA was not giving--they had pretty well cut off their technical assistance by then. Uh--and--the only 00:55:00thing that really helped the agency was the fact that there was this reserve for roads. And at, since that time--uh--some of the things that I did, or we accomplished there--uh--we got the road, parkway transferred to the state and we had to give them a chunk of money to do that. Well, it was really--uh--TVA money, but it was--it was ours in our bank. Um--it has now--uh--there as you notice coming down, I guess, if you came that way, they've repaired it pr--pretty well and they're repaving it all now. There' four lanes reserved see for that, which we owned and we--we transferred the right-of-way to the state. Uh--72 out here, that's 441 now, but we all call it Tellico Parkway. 72 out here that goes to Loudon, that was the replacement for the 72, which is 00:56:00right out here in my front ya--back yard. That was the State highway. The new one is right straight--goes right straight up to Loudon, I don't know if you've ever been on that. But it--uh--we transferred our part of it to the state also. And we had--uh--we transferred--TVA bought land for four laning and we transferred all that land--uh--to the state. And--uh--it's--I was told here just recently that--uh--in the greater development district which is a several county, you know, these water--development districts are all over the state, which is another manner. I don't--didn't work for one of them. Um--um--they're like five, six county planning areas, that kind of stuff. Um--and they handle the expansion of the roads and this kind of stuff with the State. Uh--I was told I think--uh--72 over here is second on the development district now. 00:57:00So that could be another 10 years or whatever; whenever they get the one in front of us they wi--. But the right-of-way is there and that's a real incentive for the state.

MUMMERT: Now--uh--revenues that are generated through like say property tax would be used to support what types of services?

COLAW: The property tax would be, it goes to the counties. Now, in the Tellico Village--Tellico Village, the residential the--um--we pay an assessment fee for--for our ho--homes or whatever. But we still pay regular county taxes for our homes to the county. Um--so and we have a board or you know the village has a board that--uh--runs the village part of it you know, that's the residential.

MUMMERT: And services like what law enforcement and fire protection 00:58:00are county?

COLAW: We have a volunteer fire department in the village. It's donations. We have a volunteer, couple of guys that run-ar--run around in county police cars, I say run around. They're--they're--they'll--they'll ride around just any time; it'd be at night or whatever, but they're not police officers. They have no--they have a radio in their car to the--to the--uh--county sheriff, but they don't have guns or anything. But they'll check on your home if you're on vacation or something, just walk around it. Um--um--and--um--let's see we talked about, I was going to tell you about something else, that was--well it'll come to me about--about our--fi--the financial thing. We had to give some money, which most, I said that though, to the state for--for--um--um--the parkway.[24] But--uh--the--uh-- it's a real 00:59:00advantage to the state to have these right-of-ways just handed to them, you know.[25] And all the power poles that are like on the highway--uh--over here the 72 state highway. They were all set back for four-laning, so that's done. Then one time in my--this is I think a good point. When we were recruiting--um--I guess it was Timken which is the--the--uh--one of the companies--um--they--they were--all of them asked about power. Well, where is it and all this kind of stuff. And do you have dual backup and all this. Well, the county people didn't think about stuff like that, so the power, into our backup power was the line that runs along the other side of the reservoir. And you know, it's not uncommon in those days for one pole to go down because of brush or something, so it was a little tough getting the Loudon 01:00:00County boys to--to sign on that they ought to be working with us to keep that up because they were--we were in competition with the rest of the county. It was competitive. Um--when we were trying to recruit MARCA, which the ones that went back to the Sin--Singapore--Japan, Singapore area--uh--they were real concerned about the power. So, I finally got, and I talked to the Power people in TVA and you know, it was one of these things, well we're thinking about doing that about 10 years from now, you know that kind of thing. Well, I finally got the power people in the county, they were kind of interested in the rest of the county and they s--they finally agreed to meet with Power. And they would--they dealt with Power on their own, but they didn't want me to go with them. And so I said: "Well, okay but we're talking about power down to our industrial area." Of course they didn't like it in Loudon because it was all in Monroe 01:01:00County, most of it. There--there was a little of that. Um--so, make a long story short--uh--they came back and finally told me that oh that Power said it would be maybe eight or ten years. Well, I--I don't know that you should put this in there, but you wanted a side story. We had already moved out here, no we--we hadn't, were still living in Knoxville, out there by Cedar Bluff and we shopped at that grocery store across the street, and it's not even there anymore, a big grocery store. So, I went in there with Barbara just a few days after the power or--or the guys at Loudon told me it would be quite a while, and said--uh--I ran into Bill Willis in there, in one of the aisles. And Bill said: "How are you doing Larry?" And I said: "Well, I'm doing fine, but I've got a problem." And you know Bill: "Well what is it Larry?" I told him. So I--not more than a week later, Bill said: "They're going to start on your power poles next 01:02:00week." And they did! They had the right-of-way already and--uh--we--I had to do a little paperwork with them cause part of the little bit of it where it turned--it was owned by us. So yeah, they said: "Would you sign this and give it to us?" Certainly.

MUMMERT: Now, was this when Bill Willis was still with TVA or as a retiree?

COLAW: No, no, no, no, he was with TVA, yeah. He was the head guy, you know.[[ footnote]]26[[/footnote Um--and--he was always kind to me. I knew him back when he was in--uh--I think we was in--uh--. We would send our work over in Project Planning, they had a costing section, which they did a lot of it for the design. But they did all of our costing, we'd do our own, like Jack--uh--uh--.

MUMMERT: Bill Willis is one of the people that has been interviewed for this program.

COLAW: Is it? Well, Bill was--my--at that stage, he was a little bit ahead of me. But none of us ever knew he might be General Manager someday. But anyway-- uh--it--it was nice of him. And you know, I've met a lot of 01:03:00people that were probably at my grade in those days at--in Finance and other places that, you might not want to record this, but. That--that you know, when I came down here, of course I went to Personnel in TVA and I said: "Now I want to make sure that I've got the years you know, I'm going to be retiring." And oh yes, yes, and then I had to sign a couple papers and I had them initial a couple of places and--um--so I came on down here and it was still like three or fours years maybe before I was eligible to be retired, I mean be a retiree. Um well I--when that time came, I went up to see them and they said: "Well, you're not eligible for anything." You know, and I, so Bill--uh--no--Larry--uh--Calvert was it, Larry. Yeah Larry was the head of their I guess what was the 01:04:00department? The retirement board I guess at that time and he was on the retirement board.-- And we were you know, we were pretty chummy friends in those days. And--um--so I call him up and I--and I said: "You know, here's the situation. I've got my paperwork." He says: "Larry, send it to me." So I did, and at the next board meeting they had of the fi--you know, retirement board. I don't know what all went on but Bill finally said, "I know Larry, he wouldn't tell you something that wasn't true, I know he signed that stuff because I've got the copies here." I don't know what they were talking about. And he--s--he basically said: "You're going to get your pension." Or he said that, but he had somebody call me, he didn't call me. And the pension board said: "Well, can you come back and we'll finish this up?" So, I owe a lot to those two guys, I really do. And--um--.

MUMMERT: Well--uh--I think I'm going to begin winding this down.--

COLAW: Sure. I've--maybe I've shot my mouth off too much--

MUMMERT: But we've talked, well no, we've'--we've--you've had a really interesting career, though but it's basically been centered on--uh--Tellico. And--uh--you've been able to see something from--uh--the very beginning to something that has come to fruition, and now you're a resident in--in the place that you helped--uh--develop.

COLAW: Well, Francis Perea told our--uh--told our group--uh--there was you know, three or four guys in it but, Ferguson, and all those guys, Peterson and all that, and we had the big, at Home Federal, we had the big floor. And--and he said he called us up to his desk one day and he said--he said--uh--: "I-I want all you guys to stand." And we thought what in the world, cause he wasn't that kind of guy you know. And he said: "I've worked here how many years?" And--uh-and Francis was there and he was one of the first timers. You 01:06:00know all those guys were brilliant guys that came in from everywhere. You guys, and he said to us cause were-we had the project planning report for that, he said: "You are the first guys I know of that have come here and had a project built that you worked on in--in planning." I guess when those guys came here, all of them had already been designed and were in--in some kind of stage of it. But you know, like you, you were there. When I came, they had 100 and some thousand employees. When I left, they--uh--there was hardly any construction or anything and it was down to hardly--just, what--what was it, I don't know, 30,000, 40,000--I--50,000--.

MUMMERT: Well, it's down to 10,000 now.

COLAW: Well you know, the (TVA office) towers were full and--and everything.[27] Um--m-many of the, as you know the groups I worked for are no longer in existence. And--um--and power always 01:07:00beat the drum pretty much. That--that was the last really major effort in resource development as it related to water resources. Because we looked at--uh--over in--um--Pisgah, is it? What's the one over here, across there, is it Pisgah? What's the name--name of that river over there, it goes through--uh--that isn't right, Pisgah. There's a big forest, what's the big--?

MUMMERT: Pisgah is a national forest. No, that's--Ashe--Pisgah is over in Asheville.

COLAW: Well, what's the one over there at--uh--K--goes up through--uh--you cross it going to Nashville, what's the river there.--Well there was that big forest--well there's a big forest there but that they did the--uh--Kayaking and all there.

MUMMERT: Oh, the Obed.

COLAW: Obed. Well, we had looked at that--um--shortly before I--uh--left Project Planning and those people up there didn't want it at all. And so it 01:08:00never happened. So--um--we actually when you look back, we worked on the last dams and reservoirs that TVA ever had.

MUMMERT: Well, I've got two final questions for you. One is--UM--looking back over your TVA career--um--what was your most memorable experience?

COLAW: [28]Good or bad?-- You know the bad--you know the bad already. Um--when I first came to TVA I--I had come from the Air Force, and--um--I stayed in a little--um--um--motel home, what do you call them? Um--just a couple had a couple rooms up in their home, what were 01:09:00those called? --I don't either. Um--tourist home? Yeah, tourist home down on the strip at UT. Well you know, none of that's there now. Um--the Oldsmobile plant--garage was right there and I took my car there when I bought one. Anyway--um--I got here on a Sunday my w--Barbara stayed up in Illinois. And-um--I--I got to about Crossville and get on those winding roads you know, no interstate or anything and I thought what have I done? And then when I got to Knoxville Sunday night, I--I got my car and drove around downtown to see if I could find the Union Building. Well, they was still burning coal up in Knoxville. And I came down that street--Union I guess it was and there was newspapers blowing along the street in front of the Union Building, and all. Kind of sooty looking on and I think, well what have I done? Well, 01:10:00the most pleasant sul--surprise I got I guess was when I reported Monday. And I was in--um--at the time, in the training program so I reported to the one that they had offered me, which was Flood Control. And went in and they were all very nice to me, I mean just super. Uh--then we were put in the training program for a year. So and I ended up, I wanted really to go into Project Planning and I think they were kind of mad at me because I did. But, anyway, I met some of the nicest people I've ever met of my professional life in my first three or four years in--in Tellico Village. And off course, they had all those highly respected, well-educated guys from all over the country. Some of which I've just mentioned to you that were my age and worked in other departments.-Um--did you ask for the worst, I think I've already told you about that. Well, I 01:11:00was a target for that I mean you know, they were going to clean it--.

MUMMERT: Well, that's interesting--um--that--uh--that's a fond memory of yours--your first time there.

COLAW: The gu--the first departments I worked in I think, cause I ended up in Project Planning, working, all nice people. And--uh--of course, they're all out on the street now, retired or whatever.

MUMMERT: Do you remember some of the names, though?

COLAW: Well, yeah. Don Maddern ran--uh--um--Project Pl--um--yeah--Project Planning. Um--uh--Ed Brosell was--uh--became the assistant manager. Um--Ed died of a heart attack while I was still there. Bill Loose took his job. They were all very nice to me. Uh--Jack Rozek was my section head. Um--um--did--did you know Bob McDonald? Bob was in my section. Um--Jerry--um--it'll come 01:12:00to me in a minute. Um--um--Ferguson, Jack Ferguson was--uh--in another unit there but still on the floor. Um--um--Grover Whitley, do you remember Grover?

MUMMERT: I met him as a retiree, yeah.

COLAW: Grover, fine guy, he worked for Jack. And Jack was--uh--Francis's counterpart. We--when we moved over to--to the--uh--Home Federal upstairs, we kind of reorganized and they had but into little groups.They had one or two doing it, and then three or four in each department. Uh--uh--I you know, they come to me all the time, but I--I can't come anymore. But you know, the guys I work with over in--uh--with Ralph and those guys, Thortonberry, those guys.

MUMMERT: One final question. Um--are there any questions that--uh--you wish I had asked that I didn't?

COLAW: No, I--I think to sum it up, I came to TVA when it was probably could have well been at their max employment. And--and I respected everybody early up that I re--worked for; I--I mean, n--nice people. When I left, they were--uh--and I'll tell you a side story about that off-hand--uh--they cutting back, particularly in the departments I was in you know, not design. Well, in design too. In fact, I think they did away with Design before I left, I'm not sure. And Power was getting larger and larger, you know. Um--and--I left with TVA at their lowest employment. And I--I left--I arrived with department heads in design and everybody that I had to deal with early on, were the 01:14:00finest people you'd ever want to meet. When I left, I wouldn't want to call more than about half a dozen cousins. I mean that's just how it was and it was time for me to leave.

MUMMERT: Well, Larry, thank you very much for your time. And I'm going to turn this recorder off, but thanks again.

COLAW: Well, I don't know if I gave anything that's useful, but that was it.

MUMMERT: Well, I'm sure there's a lot here.