Interview with Ronald Riberich, February 19, 2020

MUMMERT: The following is an oral history interview conducted as part of the Tennessee Valley Authority Retirees Association Oral History Project. The person being interviewed is Ronald Riberich.[1] Mr. Riberich is a retiree of the Tennessee Valley Authority [TVA]. He worked at the Tennessee Valley Authority for 31 years, between November 1983 and October 2014. He is being interviewed by Philip Mummert as part of the Oral History Project. The interview location is TVA offices in Knoxville, Tennessee. Today is Wednesday, February 19th, 2020, and the interview is now beginning. Well, Ron, thank you for doing this. And to begin, I'd like to ask you what were the circumstances that led to your being employed at TVA?

RIBERICH: Okay, well, thank you Phil. It's nice to be here and I'm 00:01:00very happy to take part in the, in the project. Well, I was working in Washington, DC, at the time, for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission [FERC]. And I was there approximately, at FERC, I was there approximately 7-1/2 years, maybe almost eight years, and I was just getting a little, little tired of what I was doing there. It was mainly a lot of regulatory work, and I wanted to try to get back to a little bit more of my background area of economics and economic planning. And, although what I did at FERC was very good and very beneficial, it was basically really regulatory aspects and I wanted to do a little more planning. And I saw an opportunity that came up with TVA. In fact, the job was advertised in the Washington Post at the time. And so I looked at this and I thought "I remember TVA. I know what they, what they, what 00:02:00they do," at least I thought anyways at the time. And so I applied for the job. And one thing led to another. I came down here to Knoxville for an interview, and a few months later I was, I was hired at TVA.

MUMMERT: Now, when was this?

RIBERICH: This was, okay, in, let's see, 1983. I applied for the job, actually, okay, the posting came out in the Washington Post in June of 1983. And I applied for it and I was called down for an interview in July of 1983. And I interviewed for a day down here, and subsequently then went back to Washington. And I was, at the beginning of the fiscal year, I was, I was hired. And they 00:03:00wanted me to start a little bit earlier, but I had a wedding planned at the time. I was getting married. So after I got married and went on a honeymoon, then I started here at TVA in November 1983.

MUMMERT: And, so, when you came, what was your first job?

RIBERICH: My first job was as an economist, and I was in Economic and Community Development, okay. And the program I was in was Navigation, Navigation Development. And that's where the job posting was listed for TVA that I applied for. And so I was in Navigation and basically I was in there. I started looking at the river system, looking at the infrastructure on the river. The plans were, at the time, to start looking at the locks, particularly on the upper, upper Tennessee River portion. And basically, to start winding up for that. 00:04:00I also got involved in a lot of transportation analysis at the time, which was a forerunner going into the lock planning study. And, and all that was part of the Economic Development program, so that's basically how I started when I first got here in November 1983.

MUMMERT: So, in a nutshell, could you explain what Navigation Development is?

RIBERICH: Navigation--

MUMMERT: What it attempts to do?

RIBERICH: Okay, Navigation Development is a very historical program at TVA. At one time, back in the, oh I guess back in the 1950s, it was a whole division. It was called the Division of Navigation Studies. It was a very, very big program. And, but I guess throughout the years there were changes and, you know, budget priorities dictated a lot of those changes. And so it was really, came down to a program, Navigation. But Navigation was, was looking at the Tennessee 00:05:00River waterway, okay, and it was looking at using the Tennessee River waterway as an economic development tool for the Tennessee Valley. So it incorporated a lot of economic analysis, engineering analysis, and trying to develop the waterway as a, as an economic development tool because it was always thought, and it's very true, that the waterway promotes competition for transportation of goods and services. And this was very important and is still very important to the Tennessee Valley. And so that's basically what Navigation Development is, looking at the Tennessee River waterway and using that as an economic development tool.

MUMMERT: Was anyone else doing this type of work? Any other agencies, like the [U.S. Army] Corps of Engineers or--

RIBERICH: Yes. The Army Corps of Engineers basically had a lot of the same responsibilities around the country for other waterway segments. And 00:06:00when I say that, like the Mississippi River system, the Ohio River system, upper Mississippi, intercoastal waterways--that's all under the Army Corps of Engineers jurisdiction. But TVA was a little bit different. It's, TVA had control of the, of the dams in the upper Tennessee area, and that made it a little bit different from what the Army Corps of Engineers actually did in terms of planning purposes. So I don't want to necessarily say they were a competitor to us. No, they were certainly a complementary agency to us in many, many respects, but that was another agency that we did rely on for information on various things.

MUMMERT: So with this new position, what types of work did you do? 00:07:00What types of studies? Do you remember any in particular?

RIBERICH: Yes, quite a few. Let's see, I looked at one study when I first got here in the late, in early, early 1980s, looked at coal transportation on the Tennessee River and future aspects of that up to the year 2000. And so that was working with a lot of the planning, Fuels Planning people in Chattanooga at the time. And that was a very interesting study. We just looked at what's, what's the future forecast for coal and its transportation and its use on the Tennessee River waterway. Which that then led to studies on the river, looking at, looking at the locks--Chickamauga, Watts Bar, Fort Loudoun, . Those were 00:08:00always, they were small locks to begin with, and they were getting older, as they are still right now. And the thoughts were that, that maybe those locks can be improved or should be improved and replaced. So we worked on those studies. I worked on several studies that involved the port areas on the Tennessee River--Muscle Shoals, Chattanooga, Pickwick. And that looked at commodities moving on the river and what their impacts were in those metropolitan areas. And, basically, looking at, okay, the difference in transportation rates, pound impacts, shippers, the savings, and how those savings are funneled through the local economies for economic purposes.

MUMMERT: Was that, the work that you did, was, was that primarily for the purpose of studying and finding out more information? Or was it to as 00:09:00the first step in maybe a planning process to determine what investments needed to be occurring at different places to accommodate projected amounts of commodities on the river?

RIBERICH: Probably as a, as a forerunner to looking at infrastructure improvements and looking at the areas on the river that would need improvements. So yes, all those studies were basically, I would say, as a forerunner feeding into some of our major, major issues that we knew were going on on the river and how we, TVA, was going to try and help solve and develop those issues.

MUMMERT: What were the primary or major commodities that were being transported on the Tennessee River when you began?

RIBERICH: There were probably about eight or nine major commodity groups. Let's see, coal was, coal was a major, one of the major commodities on the 00:10:00river. And I'm thinking, back at the time, this is back in the early 1980s, there was probably about maybe 25 to 30 million [total] tons transported on the river. And that was broken down into about eight or nine major commodity groups, of which coal was the major one. But then you had iron and steel, chemicals, aggregates, you had a catchall like "All Other" categories of commodities, and salt, and, again, aggregates as major commodity groups. So that's really how we, how we looked at it. And each area on the river probably had different commodities of those, of those groups, transported there. In other 00:11:00words, like, like a lot of the coal probably would go into like Kentucky Lake or, or Wheeler Reservoir, the TVA power plants, whereas you'd have a lot more of the chemicals and aggregates would move more towards the upper, upper Tennessee River area. So you kind of looked at it in that respect.

MUMMERT: I'm just jumping ahead to ask you. You worked for TVA for 30 years. What changed in the composition of commodities being transported? Was there, was there much change or any new ones?

RIBERICH: Not really much change. Barge transportation are basically raw commodities, raw materials. So it really didn't change all that much. There may be a new type of chemical come on or off, off the river, or petroleum 00:12:00product or different gasoline kind of product, but basically it, it, the commodities stayed the same, stayed the same because the river and barge transportation are just, raw commodities. And that's the cheapest way to move those commodities is by barge. And so I don't think, I don't think it really, it changed all that much. Those groupings are still there even today. It's just a matter of, you know, how much are they moving to different areas on the river.

MUMMERT: I see. In another interview as a part of this project, it was with Ralph Carnathan, who mentioned the importance of some of the analyses that were done to attract the Nissan, the first foreign-owned vehicle manufacturer in the Valley or in the Tennessee Valley power service region. And that, I 00:13:00believe, river transportation analysis played an important part in that overall analysis--

RIBERICH: Yes, and I can--

MUMMERT: And that impressed the, the Japanese.

RIBERICH: Oh, yes. Yes, it did.

MUMMERT: Would you have been involved in that?

RIBERICH: Not really. Okay, I did some work on that, when Nissan was looking at a site in the Tennessee Valley and which they ultimately did select. Basically, what Nissan was, was interested in were rail rates. And rail rates, railroads have historically been a very monopolistic industry. If you're a captive shipper to them, you're in trouble basically cause they're going to raise the 00:14:00rates on you just at will. But they liked this area, the Tennessee Valley, because of the river. The Tennessee River provided barge transportation and the barge transportation was, in a lot of areas, in direct competition with rail and that drove rail rates down. And that's why Nissan liked it because the rail rates were held in check. Barge transportation was able to provide the competition where it allowed them to then move in here and build their auto plant and move product by rail at a much cheaper rate than it would have been had the Tennessee River and TVA not been here.

MUMMERT: Now, when you were doing these economic analyses in your first job at TVA, were there others that you worked with who did similar work that you--

RIBERICH: In, in TVA or--

MUMMERT: In TVA.

RIBERICH: Okay.

MUMMERT: Other economists or--

RIBERICH: Oh yes, yes.

MUMMERT: Or planners.

RIBERICH: Yes. We had back then, the navigation program was part of Economic and Community Development and we had, let's see Larry Bray, Juan Gonzales, and Bob Nakosteen were, Mike Murphree were economists. And they basically were looking at supporting the, the Chief Economist's office at the time, so that was their main function was to provide economic data for them. They would also help me with data and some analyses on the river, on the waterways. And so, yes, yes there were, there were other people here who were definitely involved in it and were very familiar with, with economic development and the Tennessee River and what was going on with economic issues in TVA.

MUMMERT: The work that you and your other, these other peers worked on, did it lead to any important decisionmaking with regard to the infrastructure or addressing whatever issues there were?

RIBERICH: Yes, most definitely. I mean, it didn't happen overnight, but basically as, as programs changed throughout the years and as we got into, say, the late 1980s, maybe the 1988/1989/1990 timeframe, yes. I was working more directly then with, with the economic group in Economic Community Development and we were able then to put out forecasts that would show, that basically did show that there was a need to improve the infrastructure on the 00:17:00river, particularly at Chickamauga Lock and at Kentucky Lock, on the lower end of the Tennessee River. So yes, there were definitely impacts that we were able to develop that, you know, changed the future with TVA.

MUMMERT: Now, in doing this work, did you work with outside interests as well? Or did they use your results of your studies?

RIBERICH: We worked--

MUMMERT: Say, local communities that were interested in economic development or ports maybe.

RIBERICH: We did a lot of studies for those small metropolitan government areas throughout the Tennessee Valley and the port areas. They used our data. Now, did they actually really help us in our analyses? No. But we, we basically would sit down and talk with them and see what their needs were and look at 00:18:00some of their, their thought processes and see if it was viable to actually do what they, they thought was, was to help them in their needs. So yes, we would sit down with, with the various groups around the Valley and work with them. But no, I don't think they actually did the work for us. We were able to do that ourselves.

MUMMERT: I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but you would've been, TVA would've been the only major source of information that they could go to, of this type or of this nature.

RIBERICH: Right, we would be. Yes, we were. We had the data, we had experience, and we had a lot of the economic models that we, that were developed over the years. So, yes, we did have the accessibility to those groups out there that, that they could use for services.

MUMMERT: So this is the beginning of your, of your career at TVA. And how long were you in this position, doing this type of work?

RIBERICH: Let's see, starting in 1983, probably up until the mid- or the early, excuse me, the early 1990s. We had a lot, again, budget concerns/shifts and different reorganizations that occurred through TVA. And so as, as we, as we consolidated programs, we basically had now more economic help than what we had earlier. So I mean, I was still involved with a lot of the economic 00:20:00issues, but I guess I at that point had probably moved off into the marketing of the transportation rates group. We at, here at TVA, had a transportation program and whereas we were able to look at barge rates, rail rates, truck rates and look at commodity movements through the areas and develop transportation costs. And so I kind of moved off onto some of those areas and started working with the Corps of Engineers on using those transportation rates as input into Army Corps of Engineers projects, because basically what you're looking at is the savings differential between waterway costs and land costs, be it rail or be it truck. And that savings differential-- probably the vast majority of times 00:21:00the waterway rate is going to be cheaper. And so those, those cost savings is what goes into the Corps, the Corps was using in their waterway analysis models to forecast traffic, forecast savings to look at potentially building new locks on their river systems. And I, I, I probably worked with the Corps of Engineers on the upper Mississippi River, the Arkansas River, the Inner Harbor Navigation Canal, the Ohio River system on lock projects using our transportation system rate analysis as input into, into their work. Now again, I was still involved with our, our lock planning efforts here at TVA, but probably I was devoting more of my time to the Transportation section then.

MUMMERT: So you, in this, the work that you're now describing, you actually worked in areas that kind of benefitted other river systems--

RIBERICH: Yes, most definitely.

MUMMERT: In the eastern part of the United States, primarily.

RIBERICH: Right. Yes, primarily in the eastern U.S. And, I mean, we had the expertise. TVA was very well known and well respected, and so the Corps of Engineers was very, very happy to have us involved in their studies. So--

MUMMERT: And the Corps was the primary agency responsible for these other river systems.

RIBERICH: Yes, yes they were.

MUMMERT: So they would rely on you.

RIBERICH: Right. They would rely on us for the transportation analysis because the Corps really didn't people that could do that. We had the expertise here. And it was actually very easy for the Corps to use us, TVA, as, as, as contractors in the work because we were both Federal agencies, so it was very easy to transfer dollars from one agency to another versus if the Corps had to go out and hire outside consultants, private consultants. It's a lot harder to do and this was very, very simple and we, you know, they were very 00:23:00happy using TVA on this.

MUMMERT: How long did this work last then, for you?

RIBERICH: Well for me, I'd say that lasted until early 1990s till about the late 1990s, like 1997/1998 timeframe. And, although the work was still going on with the Corps of Engineers, there were several that occurred in the late 1990s on accidents between commercial navigation and recreation boating. There were, there were two incidents. One was, one was below Chattanooga or, yes, 00:24:00Chickamauga Dam. And there was another one at Wilson Dam, where recreation boating, recreation boaters were basically hit by a commercial barge and, and they were killed. And so, the Corps of Engineers looked at this and asked, got with us at TVA and said, "Hey, we've got to do something about this. This is just, this is not going to work. We can't have this out here." So and we all agreed. It was something that, you know, that, that couldn't go on. And it was because basically cause recreation was growing on the river. Recreation was now becoming a very important part of the river system. Years ago, that may not have been the case. But as the river developed, recreation grew and it became a very important economic industry for the Tennessee Valley. So--

MUMMERT: So, so we're talking about fishing boats and--

RIBERICH: Fishing boats--

MUMMERT: Jet skis--

RIBERICH: Jet skis, recreation boaters, water skiers, you name it. That's all in recreation boating. And that's where, again, several incidents occurred that, that people perished. And it was basically, one was a recreation boat and the other was a fishing boat. So--

MUMMERT: Well, and I would think, from what I know at TVA, there probably was another part of TVA encouraging recreational boating as well.

RIBERICH: Oh yes, yes, exactly. Yes, exactly. We had a Recreation program that basically liked to foster that. Oh and it made sense too, because recreation boating was growing and it was a very important part, economic part of the Valley. So, okay, these incidents happened and, well okay, we've got to do something about this. So one thing, I guess, led to another. I, I 00:26:00started working then with the Corps of Engineers to develop some waterway safety programs. And, okay, as this occurred, now TVA was actually a very important part of waterway, waterway safety long before I even got into it. Back in, in 1951, there were, there was a very bad accident, recreation boating accident, on the Cumberland River in Nashville, okay. And at the time, this was 1951, the Nashville newspaper, I believe it was the Nashville Banner, I think at the time, decided or came up with an idea that "Hey, something has to be done here." So they got together with the Corps of Engineers and with TVA, okay, and they formed a group, an organization called the National Water Safety Congress. And it was basically to promote waterway safety on the Cumberland River. 00:27:00Alright, that basically grew and, okay, from, from 1951, I mean, that organization is still going right now. It's a national organization, but that was, that was going on. So when I got into it, okay, you know, I wasn't in the Recreation program, but we were in the Navigation program. So I'm looking at it from the commercial aspect, not necessarily the recreation aspect, so, but then, I did see that, oh well wait, TVA's been involved in something like this for a long, long time, you know, for at least 30 years prior. So it made it easy kind of to go back and, you know, and contact the people in those, in that organization and say, "Hey, can you, can you help us more with this? Or can we help you? Can we work together on, on these boating issues?" So that's how it all began and I, I got in with the Water Safety Congress back in the 00:28:00late, I guess the late 1990s, probably, again, 1997/1998 and as it turned out, there was always a representative to the Water Safety Congress from TVA on the board. They had a board of directors and it was basically made up of Army Corps of Engineer personnel, recreation boating people, TVA, and several other groups that comprised the board. And I, you know, got into it and served on the board and one thing led to another and probably about, I don't know, maybe 8/9/10 years later I became president of the organization. So that was, you know, a very, a very good thing in the sense that we were able to really impact boating, and safety, and commercial navigation through that. So that's how I evolved into that.

MUMMERT: So as you evolved , what sorts of solutions came about to 00:29:00address these conflicts between the, especially the recreational and commercial?

RIBERICH: We put out various safety bulletins all the time. We put out issues when high water alerts on the Tennessee River, through the Coast Guard, making sure recreation boating was well aware that there's, there's dangerous navigation occurring. Also, that impacted commercial navigation. The commercial navigation would slow down or basically stop at those points during high water. We developed programs where we went out and did safety demonstrations in just about all the areas on the Tennessee River, major, major areas--Chattanooga, Muscle Shoals, Paducah. We put on safety clinics basically. We would partner with, TVA, we would partner with, with the Corps of Engineers and 00:30:00with a, a, a recreation boating manufacturer, Travis Marine for instance. And they would come out and provide their recreation crafts, be it boats, recreation boats, or personal water crafts, with instructors showing people the safe way to operate these vessels, what is, what you should do and what you should not do on the waterway. So we developed a series of those. We developed videos. We developed pamphlets, a lot of information to help people recognize, okay, how you operate on the river in terms, how you basically navigate on the river correctly with commercial traffic out there--which way you turn, which way how far you need to stay away from the recreation traffic,[2] who has the right of way, how you, how you make turns in the main 00:31:00channel. And none of that existed, so we were able to--

MUMMERT: I was going to ask was this relatively new at the time?

RIBERICH: It was all new at the time. Yes, none of that really existed--

MUMMERT: And none of it existed before.

RIBERICH: No, none of it existed before.

MUMMERT: What about outside the Tennessee Valley?

RIBERICH: That was, a lot of that was, was done in other areas by recreation groups, not necessarily a water organization, but basically recreation groups[3] would sponsor their own with programs and things like that. So it was like, if you went up to, oh, if you went down to New Orleans or St. Louis, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh--

MUMMERT: Or New York harbor or--

RIBERICH: Yes, something like that.

MUMMERT: San Francisco Bay.

RIBERICH: Yes. They would have their own--

MUMMERT: They might've done it earlier.

RIBERICH: Yes, they might've done it earlier and they had their own recreation groups out there doing it. But this was, what we did was promote it on the Tennessee River--

MUMMERT: But maybe on river systems, I should qualify my question. 00:32:00You know, as opposed to major ports. Was safety like this consideration something--

RIBERICH: Oh yes, yes.

MUMMERT: That was kind of emerging as a, as a--

RIBERICH: It was emerging and we did it basically on the Tennessee River, the Cumberland River, and, you know, the Ohio River system where it, where it impacted the TVA area. So that's, and from that, again, we put out a lot of information that really other, other parts of the country could use in terms of, you know, how we developed the safety manuals, so, yes, those were in use out there.

MUMMERT: But TVA was recognized as a leader in this area?

RIBERICH: Yes, we were. TVA was recognized and they were recognized really back since 1951 when they first started this Water Safety Congress cause it started as a regional organization and then over the course of time grew into a national organization. So TVA was always heavily involved in it when I was 00:33:00there. And so it was, really, it, it kind of took me out of my comfort zone in a lot of these things because I wasn't used to, I mean, I was, you know, used to looking at data analysis and, and commodity forecasts and now, now I'm looking basically, alright how do you separate recreation traffic from commercial traffic and keep everybody happy out here at the same time.

MUMMERT: And in some instances, I suppose you're interacting with the public.

RIBERICH: Oh yes, quite frankly.

MUMMERT: Now these demonstrations, did they attract a good crowd in--

RIBERICH: Yes, they did.

MUMMERT: In most cases?

RIBERICH: Yes, they did. They attracted very nice crowds. They attracted local media. We had a lot of local media attention in Nashville, in Chattanooga, in Muscle Shoals, in Paducah. And, again, we had, you know, the TV stations out there, and so everybody was very, very well interested in this. And again, it, it showed TVA and what we were doing in the Tennessee Valley and how 00:34:00we were trying to look at emerging issues.

MUMMERT: The work that TVA was doing and the fact that you were involved with it probably had something to do with your rising to the level of being president of the safety organization?

RIBERICH: Yes, yes it did.

MUMMERT: Of course, and the good work that you were doing personally.

RIBERICH: Personally, yes. Yes, yes, I would like to think it did. It, the work that we were doing here and the fact that I was on the board, you know, one thing led to the other there and they asked me to basically become, you know, the, the, the vice president of the organization with, as, as basically then automatically fills up into the president. So for four years there, and then as a past-present, so for six years there I was really directly involved with the organizational planning and--

MUMMERT: And those six years, when, when, what were those six year now?

RIBERICH: Those six years--

MUMMERT: In the 1990s?

RIBERICH: Yes, that was probably, let's see, 19--, 20--, well okay, 00:35:0020--, the year 2000 to 2002 I was the vice president of the waterway, National Waterway Congress. And then from 2002 to 2004 I was president. And then from 2004 to 2006 the past president, that was my 6-year, 6-year term on that.

MUMMERT: What did the congress, what was it able to achieve through some of those years of your leadership?

RIBERICH: We put together some very diverse programs. We had meetings basically, I think we, we probably grew in that timeframe. We used to have an annual meeting and it was basically a, a, I don't want to say a regional meeting, but it kind of had more of that regional aspect. We would meet at like a, 00:36:00say, like Cumberland State Park or something like that and have the meeting there. Well, actually in my time, time there we were able to secure funding from the Coast Guard, the U.S. Coast Guard, to put on a bigger program. Because they liked, kind of liked what we were doing on a smaller regional basis, as to where we put on national programs. Let's see, we had, we had, we went to national cities. We went to Las Vegas. We went to Houston, San Antonio. So we, we kind of grew in that aspect of putting on a, of looking at this much more of a national scope than a regional scope.

MUMMERT: Interesting.

RIBERICH: Okay.

MUMMERT: To go on, then, let's pick up you got into this water 00:37:00safety, but did you remain in that arena or did you move into another type of position?

RIBERICH: Well--

MUMMERT: I'm finding out that most TVA employees had actually two or three different careers.

RIBERICH: Oh yes. Yes, I did. I'm included. Actually, now, okay, the Water Safety Congress, probably after I completed my, my, like a 6-year term, again budget, budget cuts, and reorganizations occurred in TVA and unfortunately, the, the, the representative position to the Water Safety Congress kind of went by the wayside. TVA didn't want to support it anymore. They didn't want to put anybody else in the position on the Water Safety Congress board, so it kind of stopped right there after me. And I tried to get interest to, to 00:38:00continue that but I unfortunately was not successful in doing it because management changes. They, they just didn't see a direct value of having TVA involved in, in an organization, even though the safety programs certainly impacted the Tennessee River waterway. But it was very difficult getting, getting the management, at the time, to continue seeing value in that, so they kind of let it all slide.

MUMMERT: And this was when?

RIBERICH: This was probably 2007/2008, okay. And at that point, we were going through reorganizations with the Navigation program and we had, we had changes. And Navigation basically, kind of shrunk down to looking at, rather 00:39:00than looking at planning and economic portions of the program, basically shrunk down to the engineering aspects of it. In other words, okay, what, what kind of needs do we have at the locks in terms of repair and things like that. Do you need new trash racks at the locks? Do you need some of the maintenance and service buildings do they need repaired, and things like that? So Navigation took on those aspects and that probably left me out of the planning portion of that. So after, basically Navigation from, from, from my perspective, basically shrank. And I then was left to look at what else can I do within TVA? So--

MUMMERT: But there was, you're saying, a de-emphasis on navigation development and planning?

RIBERICH: The planning part.

MUMMERT: During this period?

RIBERICH: Yes, the planning part. The, a much, a, a pretty great de-emphasis on the planning part. They only wanted to look at the maintenance part.

MUMMERT: Was there not a need for planning at the time?

RIBERICH: Yes, there was still a need for it, but--

MUMMERT: This was primarily done because of the downsizing or budget--

RIBERICH: Downsizing and budget cuts--

MUMMERT: Cutting consideration, considerations that a large organization sometimes goes through?

RIBERICH: Right, exactly. So there was a de-emphasis and, again, it was budget cuts and downsizing. And there still was always a need for the planning part, but they, they didn't see it. They felt that the Army Corps of Engineers could, could handle that. And that really, so, so TVA wanted more of the 00:41:00Corps of Engineers to take over the planning on the Tennessee River. Really--

MUMMERT: What was your feeling about the Corps of Engineers being able to handle that?

RIBERICH: I was kind of disappointed. I didn't think the Corps could really look at the issues the way TVA always looked at it in the past because their planning efforts were more central, central planning. In other words, at the time, the Corps of Engineers, their economic division, planning division, their planning division was in, and probably still is in, Huntington, West Virginia, and they had responsibility for about five or six river segments--the Ohio River; the lower Mississippi; the Cumberland River; let's see, the Atlantic Intercoastal Waterway. So okay, now they picked up more of the Tennessee River. So it really, the Tennessee River was not going to get the attention from them 00:42:00because they couldn't. They only had a limited staff and a limited budget, as we at TVA did. So I felt it was going to suffer very much so.

MUMMERT: Yes.

RIBERICH: But that's, that's the way it went, so--

MUMMERT: Well, and I, TVA was created to be a regional development--

RIBERICH: Yes, yes.

MUMMERT: Agency.

RIBERICH: Yes.

MUMMERT: And the Corps of Engineers had a very different--

RIBERICH: Different--

MUMMERT: Function.

RIBERICH: Yes, a very different function. And, you know, at the time then TVA was abandoning the regional development aspects of what their mission should be. So I, I didn't like it. I thought it was going to be very detrimental to, to the Valley, and so, and I think to this day it's still probably in that state. The--

MUMMERT: Well today it's 20--, 2020. I don't know how or whether you've kept up with this. You know, is there anything that has kind of filled that 00:43:00gap that you might know about or--

RIBERICH: No. I think--

MUMMERT: At local ports or have those that have navigational interests become more sophisticated in their abilities?

RIBERICH: I, I, I don't think so. I think local ports if they need any, any economic information or planning information now have to go out and pay private consultants to do the work that TVA basically was able to do at a much more, I mean, TVA was able to provide those services at a much more efficient cost than what they're getting right now. As far as on the river, okay, Chickamauga Lock is, is partially, partially built. And that's, that's a matter of the Corps of Engineers not able to get the funding for, you know, to complete the 00:44:00lock there. So I think, I think they're just basically limping along on the river system. So I, you know, there's no planning.

MUMMERT: Well, anyway, there was a de-emphasis. And let's go back to you and the rest of your TVA career.

RIBERICH: Okay.

MUMMERT: What happened?

RIBERICH: Okay. After kind of the navigation planning portion dried up and basically Navigation shrank from a group of, well, a group of 7/8/9 people all the way down to, I think, well, I believe it was just one person. That's, that's really what the Navigation program became, it was just the engineering aspect looking at the maintenance issues. I kind of migrated into looking at hydro facilities, okay, looking at the process and procedures that, at the 00:45:00time TVA River Operations needed on, on, on the programs and in the hydro facilities. In other words, I was able to work with a group of people, manage a group of people looking at, okay, how you do maintenance procedures in the plants. So you don't want, you don't want to do maintenance different from one facility to another because your costs are going to go up. And you have to have some organization. If you, if you do something at Watts Bar, you're going to have to do pretty much the same thing at Chattanooga[4] or, or elsewhere. So I looked at that and, you know, I worked on issues of process and procedures, looking at maintenance and regulatory issues of how TVA should be addressing, making sure all the procedures were correct, 00:46:00and that what we did at one plant we did it at all the other plants if it was applicable, and making sure working with the plants and the managers and making sure all their documents were, regulatory documents were in order. So I did that probably for about like 2009 or so until I, until I retired.

MUMMERT: But that took you out of your economic--

RIBERICH: Yes.

MUMMERT: Planning and analysis.

RIBERICH: Yes, it did. It took me out of economic planning and--

MUMMERT: So that was another new, very new area--

RIBERICH: Another--

MUMMERT: You had to learn--

RIBERICH: You had to learn a lot of the engineering aspects of what's going on in the plants and how, how the basic, you know, you develop hydro power in the plants. So, yes, it took me out of a whole, it was a complete 180 degree turn from what I was used to doing.

MUMMERT: But so you, you, you retired in--

RIBERICH: 2014.

MUMMERT: 2014. So you were doing that for about how long?

RIBERICH: About 5 years, as manager of Process and Procedures group. And it was myself and two other people and I would basically, we'd have to go through and develop and make sure the procedures were up to date because at the time TVA was very particular on their procedures. And so every, every work program had to have a procedure on how they do the work, be it river scheduling, on how you manage the dams, or flood control which we'd look at there on how you do your analyses, and even, even navigation was in there but only on the engineering aspects of what, of how you look at engineering to complete some of the navigation responsibilities.

MUMMERT: Did you primarily work on those facilities that were on, were on the Tennessee River? Or did you deal with dams on the tributary--

RIBERICH: No, I dealt with all, all the dams.

MUMMERT: All the dams.

RIBERICH: All 54 dams. Yes, all, all the dams. So I made a lot of trips to, you know, Douglas, Blue Ridge, Chatuge, you know, I had to go in there and look and see what the issues were. Work with the managers, make sure everything, what they say they're doing is, is what they actually are doing. And how those plants like at, say, say at Blue Ridge and Chatuge are very, very similar are, okay, does everything match up? And, okay, you know, when you do maintenance, when you take say the, okay, the stator in the, in the hydro plant--which is the big kind of drum that's used, that's used to produce the power--when you take that down for maintenance, are you doing the same thing at the other plants that have similar technologies? So, yes, that's what I did.

MUMMERT: So it was primarily trying to figure out more efficient ways of doing this within the organization.

RIBERICH: Within the organization, yes.

MUMMERT: And, but that must've been a, a phenomenal learning experience to--

RIBERICH: Yes, it was.

MUMMERT: Get exposure to TVA and, and the operation of its dams, both on the tributary--

RIBERICH: Right.

MUMMERT: As well as the main river.

RIBERICH: Yes, you know. And, and, and, I guess ironically enough, I felt more involved probably with TVA at that point because I was actually doing TVA, TVA-direct work versus what I had done at the past. Okay, with the, with the Water Safety Congress and with the transportation rates, with navigation planning. Okay, this kind of took me back to, okay, when I was doing, you know, when I first started with TVA in Navigation Planning, yes, that directly impacted TVA. And now, okay, I've kind of evolved to different areas, but still had my hands, obviously, in the TVA analyses that were going on. But 00:50:00now I was strictly looking at, okay, producing power for TVA. It wasn't, it wasn't looking at regional planning or any kind of planning efforts. This was strictly, okay, making sure everything is correct so we, you know, produce power most efficiently for the consumer out there.

MUMMERT: Well, Ron, you've given us a good survey of your, your career. But looking back over, do you have any favorite memories?

RIBERICH: Yes, oh yes, quite a few memories.

MUMMERT: Want to share one or two of them?

RIBERICH: Yes, okay. There were, there were times. Okay, we would attend some of the meetings, public meetings around the Valley on, on navigation. This is back in the mid-1980s/late 1980s/1980s. And, okay, we'd be in a public 00:51:00meeting and, you know, it could be a group of 50 people, 60 people, or it could be a group of maybe 10. But invariably, you're going to have people that, you know, really want to come after TVA and us for all the things that they perceived that TVA was doing wrong, you know. And we'd have to sit there and, you know, just, just listen to it, be calm, and basically then try to sit down and, and, and work with these people and say, "No, no. Look, this is not exactly how you think it went or should've gone." And so it, it became an educational process in those public meetings and sometimes it was people, people really changed and became a little more enlightened and saw what we were doing, and other times they didn't. So but it was enjoyable doing that. And I, I also enjoyed like going out and doing some of the national presentations 00:52:00at the Corps of Engineers meetings up in Washington, DC, presenting our, our paper and analysis and getting a lot of good feedback from other peer groups in economic issues. So that was a lot of fun. And then, you know, even in the water, water safety, just going out and working with the people. And, you know, here was a little different than the public meetings. These people were much more interested in, in water safety and they basically understood that. They wanted to be safe on the water. So prodding them with information, they were very intent and very interested and very much interested in learning what we were doing at TVA and how it could help them. So those were a lot of fun issues. I really, I had a good time with that.

MUMMERT: But, yes, in a nutshell it sounds like you really enjoyed interacting with other people--

RIBERICH: Oh yes.

MUMMERT: Outside TVA.

RIBERICH: Outside TVA. Yes, I did. Yes, because a lot of people, most people at the time, had a very good feeling about TVA. I mean obviously you had some in the Valley that didn't. And, you know, some you were able to educate and some you weren't. But when you went outside the Tennessee Valley, people really were impressed with TVA. They had, they had heard of TVA from back in their high school days and were very impressed that, you know, I was working or any of us were working with TVA. So that was, that was a lot of fun to just interact with those people. It was. And it kind of changed, I thought. When I, when I, when I was finally at the end of the career working with the, with the process and procedures group. Again, very important, producing power, but it wasn't the same interaction that I had working nationally around the country.

MUMMERT: I've got, I'm going to wrap this up, but I've got two tough questions--

RIBERICH: Okay.

MUMMERT: Before we end.

RIBERICH: Alright.

MUMMERT: And the first one is what was your most important accomplishment, do you feel, At TVA?

RIBERICH: I, well, okay--

MUMMERT: Or accomplishments.

RIBERICH: Quite a few I guess, quite a few. I think getting management back in the 1980s to buy in to the fact that, okay, new locks were needed on the upper Tennessee River. I mean, that was, you know, that was, they weren't going to budge on that. They didn't, a lot of them didn't even know where the locks were at the time, quite frankly. So getting management--and they did, they bought into it. We were able to get more money and, and, and complete 00:55:00studies, and so getting that, that interest, that buy-in was, was a big breakthrough. And that was a lot of fun and I enjoyed that. That was a big accomplishment. Another one, I think, was working with the, the Water Safety Congress. You know, I, when I first got into it, wasn't sure what to expect. I just thought we would put together a few programs out there with the national district of the Corps and be done. But one thing led to another, and, you know, a few years later all of a sudden, I'm president of the organization. So, yes, that was a big accomplishment. I liked that. I never would've expected that. And so, and being president was, it had, you know, it its perks. You, you know, we met, we met, let's see one year in, in Las Vegas and then another year we met down in Daytona Beach. And so it was very nice facilities they gave 00:56:00us and so, yes, that was very nice. I enjoyed that. That was a good time doing it.

MUMMERT: Alright. The next question, and the last one really, is are there any questions that I have not asked that you wish I had?

RIBERICH: No, I think you, I think you've covered everything. You know, with, with TVA, as with any organization, I think there's going to be your ups and downs. And hopefully you have more ups than you do, do downs throughout 30-some odd years. So I think you, you touched on areas where TVA was, you know, in a downward spiral on things and kind of not recognizing some of their mission responsibilities. And so, I think that was important to bring up. I 00:57:00mean, I think, talking about the accomplishments, but also looking at, again, looking at where TVA dropped the ball on navigation planning and, you know, kind of gave up their planning responsibilities. Yes, that was important to bring out and I'm glad you did.

MUMMERT: Well, it sounds like you've had a very interesting 30 years--

RIBERICH: Yes, I did.

MUMMERT: At TVA, Ron, and I appreciate your doing this. The importance of thinking ahead and planning for the future progress and promises of the Tennessee River is certainly a worthy endeavor.

RIBERICH: Alright.

MUMMERT: And also, the working and addressing those, I'm sure, challenging safety issues related to both the different types of navigation and boating on waterways was another.

RIBERICH: Oh yes, yes. It was, it was good. I enjoyed it. I'm still interested in, in TVA. I'm still very much interested in, you know, the planning 00:58:00efforts of TVA and I would just like to see, you know, more of it come back. I think there's, I still think there's opportunities for it to come back. Maybe not with this current administration, but with, with future administrations I think there's definitely possibilities that TVA could get appropriated dollars back for, for resource planning and I'd very much like to see that.

MUMMERT: Well, that's a positive thought to end this interview on. I'd like to thank you again for your time.

RIBERICH: Okay. I appreciate it Phil. I enjoyed it.