Interview with Judith Bartlow, December 10, 2019

MUMMERT: The following is an oral history interview conducted as part of the Tennessee Valley Authority Retirees Association Oral History Project. The person being interviewed is Judith Bartlow.[1] Ms. Bartlow is a retiree of the Tennessee Valley Authority. She worked at the TVA for about 21 years between 1979 and May 2000. She is being interviewed by Philip Mummert as part of the Oral History Project. The interview is being conducted via telephone and Ms. Bartlow is at her residence in Sheridan, Wyoming. Today is Tuesday, December 10th, 2019, and the interview is now beginning. Well, Judith, I appreciate your being willing to do this. I'm going to begin to--by asking you what were the circumstances that led to your getting a job at TVA?

BARTLOW: Well, I did an internship with Environmental Education to start with. And, then was hired after that internship.

MUMMERT: You were doing environmental education work where?

BARTLOW: In Norris.

MUMMERT: Oh, OK.

BARTLOW: It was called the Environmental and Energy Education Program, I think.

MUMMERT: And what--when was that when you started? That was sometime in 1979?

BARTLOW: Yes.

MUMMERT: Could you tell me more about the Environmental Energy Education Program and what it was about?

BARTLOW: It was working with teachers to work with students. The thinking then was that you could reach more students by working with teachers. And 00:02:00we also did interpretation--natural resource interpretation on the Norris Reservation. And that was really one of the things that I worked on. More than working with teachers, I worked on--on interpretation at Norris.

MUMMERT: You said the Norris reservoir. That's the lake behind Norris Dam?

BARTLOW: No, the reservation.

MUMMERT: What was that?

BARTLOW: Well, at the time they had--we called it the fish lab--but it was the interpretative center in front of the lab, that I think now that I'm told is a restaurant or a brewery. But back then, it had been a small interpretative center with a fish pond in the back with native fish in it. And there 00:03:00was a display that was there. At the time it was called The Farmer. There was sort of leucite figures of men who represented fields and the history of the area--like the farmer and the forester and--I don't remember the other one. And then we had programs on the reservation to interpret natural resources.

MUMMERT: These--who would you be teaching? Would school groups come?

BARTLOW: Well, a lot of different people came to that little interpretative center. Interestingly, they--it was number of Y--of CCC [Civilian Conservation Corps] men who had worked on the reservation during the CCC days when 00:04:00Norris Dam was built. And they came back to show their wives and just to see the changes. And they would come in and tell stories about their experiences working for CCC. And that was probably the most enjoyable for me. And other people--just tourist people--would stop and go out and look at the fish and use the bathroom.

MUMMERT: Do you remember any of the stories?

BARTLOW: I don't really remember the stories. I was lucky enough to work with Earl Olson, who was a forester and started with TVA at the very beginning. And he worked with the CCC. There was six camps around Norris and he 00:05:00worked with them. And he was just such a pleasure to talk to. And I would run into CCC men occasionally, in one time or another, and they were always excited to see where they had been housed.

MUMMERT: You mentioned the YCC. What was that?

BARTLOW: Youth Conservation Corps. And TVA at the time had--I think there was six YCC camps around the Valley. And these were young people from, I think, the ages of 12 to 17 who did conservation work, a lot of trail building. And they built their own camp and they had instructors who lived with them or 00:06:00worked with them to teach safety, to teach how to use tools, how to build things, how to build trails, and then interpret the natural resources of the trails themselves. So I worked briefly with that program; but at the time, the Reagan Administration closed down that project. I went from environmental education and there was a reduction in force at the time. And so I worked for YCC, and then that program was shut down. And then I worked very briefly with Young Adult Conservation Corps that was even yet another work--work 00:07:00project in the Valley.

MUMMERT: So the Youth Conservation Corps--these were primarily high school kids?

BARTLOW: Younger. And they--it was really a marvelous program around the Valley. We had kids that came back year after year. They would even fib when they aged out to try to get back in because they had such good experiences. And it was kids from all walks of life. And I remember the story about one young--one fellow who sold his horse to buy steel toed boots, cause that was one of the requirements. You had to have steel toed boots to work outside and on trails. And he sold his horse in order to pay for these boots.

MUMMERT: Now, was this primarily a summer program?

BARTLOW: Yes, since they were in school during the school year.

MUMMERT: But the adult program was--who--

BARTLOW: It was year-round.

MUMMERT: It was year-round. The adults--did they get paid for participating or?

BARTLOW: Yes. And they built it. When I was working with them, they were building trails in Big South Fork. It had just gone from private hands into Federal hands--Big South Fork National River and Recreation Area. And they were restoring areas and building trails.

MUMMERT: And Big South Fork--tell me where that's located.

BARTLOW: Scott County, Tennessee.

MUMMERT: OK, that's probably in north central--or in eastern Tennessee, but just south of Kentucky?

BARTLOW: Yes.

MUMMERT: OK, so you moved from Environmental Ed to YCC within what--a space of a year or two?

BARTLOW: A couple of years, I think. Yes, and then there was downsizing going on, and I was one of the last people hired. And so I was also one of the first people on the strip list. So I sort of jumped around a bit because there was still places to go. And I went to River Recreation for--very briefly. And then I was on loan to the Department of Energy for a project that evaluated lands that had --coal mine lands that had been abandoned before the mining 00:10:00laws--the reclamation laws went into effect. And I did that for a year.

MUMMERT: What type of work did you do there?

BARTLOW: Well, each state did their own survey of abandoned mines. And they sent them into a central location that the Department of Energy in Oak Ridge was the repository. And there was a team of people that would review these forms, and some were better than others. And if they ran across information that wasn't complete about a certain mine--for instance, if there was acid mine drainage and they didn't say where it was coming, they would send out people to evaluate those incomplete forms. And I was one of those people. There were six 00:11:00of us and we all worked separately. And so I think I worked in nine states.

MUMMERT: Nine states. Did you--you actually went then to the abandoned mine sites?

BARTLOW: Yes. Yes, and that was probably one of the most interesting jobs that I did while I was working with TVA--through TVA. I was on loan. But it was just a fascinating program and project. People--the cultures were different from Oklahoma to Kentucky and, you know, it was outside work and I enjoyed it. But we also had to interview people within sight of the mine. You wanted to get the local people to tell you whether they thought it was a danger or not. They wanted to evaluated whether it was an extreme danger. I can't 00:12:00remember. There were four categories, I think. And so they didn't want to give a high ranking to something that was just visually unattractive. They wanted to be sure that they put their money where the most serious problems were. So we would interview people that lived nearby, without putting words in their mouth, to give us a sense of how they felt about that mine.

MUMMERT: And you mentioned nine states, and in the course of your conversation you mentioned Oklahoma. Now that's not in the Tennessee Valley.

BARTLOW: No, but this was a Federal--I mean, this was a nationwide program to--and it didn't have anything to do with TVA. I was just on loan to the Department of Energy.

MUMMERT: I see. And how long --you said about a year you were on that program?

BARTLOW: It was a year. I think it was a year. Yes.

MUMMERT: I should've asked you this near the beginning of the interview. But could you tell me a little bit about your background and experience and training before you came to TVA?

BARTLOW: Well, I worked in libraries. Three different libraries, college libraries, two public libraries in Illinois and Tennessee--in Knoxville.

MUMMERT: So you were in education, primarily, types of environments, I guess?

BARTLOW: Yes. I got my degree in Environmental Education at the University of Tennessee.

MUMMERT: Oh, OK.

BARTLOW: And then I worked in--when I lived in Illinois, I worked in mental health and libraries. I worked in a treatment center for young people.

MUMMERT: OK. So anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt you and ask you that, but I just wanted to do that because you kind of moved into kind of conservation-type activities.

BARTLOW: Yes.

MUMMERT: Through first dealing with environmental education as your first responsibility at TVA.

BARTLOW: Yes.

MUMMERT: Ok. Well, then, when you went to the--or did the work for the Department of Energy and worked on assessing abandoned mine sites and their areas around them, I guess, what--what types of experience did you have? Do you remember? Do you have any favorite memories in doing that work?

BARTLOW: Oh, I have lots. It was such interesting work. I didn't have any experience, except that I was sort of an outdoors person and I was curious and observant, I hope, and enjoyed talking to people and meeting different people and I wasn't afraid to work by myself in some very rural areas. And the work was so different. It just kept my attention all the time. I couldn't wait to get to the next site. And people were just so--you know, in Kentucky--eastern Kentucky area, people were very poor and very reluctant to talk to somebody from the government. And there was a lot of wild catting going on cause the 00:16:00coal industry was depressed, and so there were wildcat mines every so often that I'd run across that made me a little nervous. I was concerned that they would think that I was there to investigate them and, of course, you never know what's going to happen in a situation like that. But fortunately, nothing ever did. And when I was in Illinois looking at deep mines--I wasn't in mines--I was in surface mines, but not inside deep mines. I was sent to the local senior citizen center to interview these gentlemen who had worked in these mines. And several of them had lost members of their family from explosions, but they loved coal mining. And they were just so interesting to talk to. They said they wouldn't do anything else. Oklahoma was a whole different situation. The mines 00:17:00were probably 80 feet deep, but it was flat other than eastern Oklahoma, around Sallisaw. And the ground was very flat, but the mines--although they weren't deep mines, they were deep pits and some of the school buses ran in between one pit and another pit. So in the wintertime when it would freeze, the school buses were in danger of sliding off into these 80 foot deep pits that were water filled. But the local people didn't want them filled in or reclaimed because they wanted the water. So there were lots of interesting things like that. Alabama was different. They had deep mines that these air shafts had 00:18:00never been reclaimed. And a lot of them said they coon hunted at night and they said that--I said, "Well, has anybody ever fallen in?" And he said, "How would you know?"

MUMMERT: Well, that sounds really interesting. Now, after you were finished with that particular work with DOE, I assume you came back to TVA at some point.

BARTLOW: I did. And at the time, I was hired as natural areas coordinator in--in Natural Resources.

MUMMERT: What--I always--what was TVA's responsibility or interest in natural areas? I always thought, you know, that it was primarily a big 00:19:00utility and built dams and managed the river system.

BARTLOW: Well, TVA owns quite a lot of land around the reservoirs, around the dams, and some of these areas are really unique and beautiful. There are ravines, and waterfalls, and wildflowers, and endangered species, and it's not grassy lawns around reservations or thick honeysuckle and privet. It's unique areas that TVA felt the need to protect as unique and identify and set aside. And Roger Bollinger started this project that he called Small Wild Areas and I think he identified, at the beginning, 17 around--around the Valley. 00:20:00But it increased quite a bit over the years. And so part of my job was to identify these areas through land use plans; and also interpret them; where it was appropriate, to invite the public and to do interpretive walks; and let people know--write brochures and to let people know about them.

MUMMERT: How would--back in the beginning--how would someone determine that an area is special or not? That it even deserved to be, say, assessed or investigated more?

BARTLOW: Well, a lot of the foresters who were out on the--in the lands all around the Valley knew about these areas and they identified some of 00:21:00the them. And we would just hear from multiple people who knew these areas, well, about others. And just the history of the Valley, there were indications that some areas were really unique and special. The environmental--the Endangered Species Act also contributed to that. There were areas where we have--particularly caves on the river system--that had federally endangered bats. And so that was a--an important obligation that TVA had as a Federal agency to protect federally endangered species.

MUMMERT: Could you give me a quick rundown of the variety of special areas there were?

BARTLOW: Well, Foster Falls is near South Cumberland Recreation Area 00:22:00on--near Monteagle Mountain. And that's a 60-foot waterfall with a plunge pool and wildflowers. They set up management there and a campground, and it was identified primarily to manage such beautiful area and also to prevent vandalism and rowdyism. Steiner's Woods out on the Norris Reservation had old trees--old beech trees. This was bottom land. I don't remember now how many acres--maybe 25 had--was set aside by the Steiner family to protect their picnic spot. And these big old beech trees had carvings on them back to World War II. And it 00:23:00was just a beautiful area with wildflowers. It was a hard area to interpret because it was remote and hard to find. Norris Dam Reservation had a trail called River Bluff and it is just carpeted in wildflowers. And we had people that came from all over year after year to see those wildflowers and go on wildflower walks.

MUMMERT: I remember getting periodic messages that probably came through TVA's emails or memos saying that Judith Bartlow was going to be having a 00:24:00special nature walk on such and such a day and that everyone was invited.

BARTLOW: Yes, we had a great time. We had hundreds of people that came. We had volunteers. One of my favorite things was people were coming in on the trail and digging wildflowers to take home and plant in their gardens, which was totally not a good thing. Not only did it destroy the resource that we were trying to protect, but also the wildflowers probably wouldn't make it. And so I asked if the BVI--Bicentennial Volunteers, who were TVA retirees--would help and be trail head--I can't think of what we called them right at the 00:25:00moment--ambassadors. And they--they were at the trail head almost every day during wildflower season, welcoming people, handing out brochures, telling them what was in bloom at the time. And it also prevented people from digging wildflowers. And it was such a pleasure to work with these retirees.

MUMMERT: Do you know if these areas are still designated as special and maybe accessible to the public?

BARTLOW: Well, none of them are accessible because we have endangered species that have to be protected, but I think most of them--Steiner's Woods was sort of an exception because it was just so hard to find. I was going to write an article for Tennessee Conservation that's called "Nine Signs to Steiner's." And if one of those signs was taken down by whoever, then you might get 00:26:00lost quite easily and wander around the countryside. And then I'd get a phone call on Monday morning saying, "I couldn't find it." So we--we decided not to promote that area, but it's still protected.

MUMMERT: Are there any--were there any areas in other parts of the Valley other than like East Tennessee?

BARTLOW: Oh yes.

MUMMERT: Could you name one or two of those?

BARTLOW: Lady's Bluff on Kentucky is a beautiful area of bluffs and views of the river, sweeps on the river, and wildflowers.

MUMMERT: When you say Kentucky, you mean Kentucky Reservoir?

BARTLOW: Kentucky Reservoir, yes, near Linden, Tennessee. And I'm sure that it's still a popular place to visit. And I used to do wildflower 00:27:00walks. I don't know if they're still doing wildflower walks there.

MUMMERT: Was that primarily a--a TVA event--the wildflower walks? Or did you work with, say, local wildflower groups or conservation groups?

BARTLOW: Yes. At Norris, we worked with rangers at Norris Dam State Park and local wildflower enthusiasts. At--at Lady Finger Bluff--Lady Bluff it's called now--we worked with local people who knew wildflowers.

MUMMERT: What are some of your favorite memories in working at these special wild areas?

BARTLOW: Well, the people, I guess, and just being in such a beautiful area. And meeting people from all over--people that knew wildflowers or just wanted to learn wildflowers. The other part of my job that I enjoyed was counting bats at caves where--where there were populations of endangered species.

MUMMERT: How in the world do you--does someone count bats?

BARTLOW: Well, it's--it's an inexact science, but it seems to be--you can track big population drops. You don't know exactly, of course, but you sit at the mouth of the cave as it gets dusk and the bats start to come out. And you're counting sort of a window. First it's five, and then it's 25, and 00:29:00then it's 200, and then it's 500. And you've got--you count for a minute and then you rest for a minute. And then you count for a minute and then you rest for a minute.

MUMMERT: Through what period of time?

BARTLOW: Well, it takes maybe 40 minutes for them--it depends on the size of the population. But we'll say at Nickajack Cave, it takes probably 40 minutes.

MUMMERT: Nickajack Cave is on the Nickajack Reservoir?

BARTLOW: Yes, near Chattanooga. And that's a big population. It's a maternity cave. The mothers are giving birth, and then they go out to feed and 00:30:00leave the babies on the roost in the cave. So after the emergence--after the adults are out--then we would go in and count babies on the ceiling of the cave. And this is at night and it's dark. And it's just such an unusual, interesting experience.

MUMMERT: Now why is it important to count bats?

BARTLOW: Well, you want to know if your population is increasing, staying stable, or decreasing. And they're federally endangered. So these are cave obligate species, which means they don't roost in your attic. And there are only certain caves that they are--that they thrive in. The maternity caves are warm, warmer than say hybernaculums, where they winter. And it's like an 00:31:00incubator for babies.

MUMMERT: So you were monitoring the population over a period of time.

BARTLOW: Yes.

MUMMERT: And did you then have to report that information to someone?

BARTLOW: We sent it to Fish and Wildlife Service.

MUMMERT: So they were responsible for monitoring under the Endangered Species Act?

BARTLOW: Yes, Well, we were.

MUMMERT: Oh you were. Because--

BARTLOW: Yes. You know, we worked in cooperation. It was always a cooperative project.

MUMMERT: Any other--

BARTLOW: If the population was declining sharply, you know, we wanted to know that. They wanted to know that.

MUMMERT: Any other unique tasks that you were involved in during this 00:32:00period of your career? Many, I'm sure.

BARTLOW: Well, those were the highlights.

MUMMERT: OK. What--when were you doing this now? I lost track of time. In the 1980s? Early--

BARTLOW: Yes, 1980s and 1990s.

MUMMERT: OK, so you worked with the small wild areas. That's what they were called--small wild areas?

BARTLOW: Yes, and natural areas.

MUMMERT: Or natural areas. So you worked in that position for how long?

BARTLOW: Well, I retired in 2000. Probably 18 years.

MUMMERT: Oh OK. So that was the bulk of your TVA career and the end of it.

BARTLOW: Yes.

MUMMERT: I want to--I was thinking of this when you were explaining 00:33:00how you count bats and why, for instance. Was the significance of the type of work that you did with TVA wild areas recognized outside the Valley? By maybe other--

BARTLOW: Well, I went to conferences--natural area conferences all those years. And, so, you know, I tried to spread the word at conferences about what we were doing. But I don't know if it was recognized outside the Valley.

MUMMERT: Yes.

BARTLOW: Well, wait a minute. Let me back up a little bit. I was on a protection planning committee that was made up of people in conservation around the state. It started in Tennessee, but there was also Mississippi and Kentucky. 00:34:00And these committees were made up of people in conservation and they shared information about what they were doing around the states. And it was our colleagues that did the same sort of work that I did, and it was shared information. So we knew what was going on in Kentucky; we knew what was going on in Mississippi; and Tennessee. There wasn't one in Alabama. So.

MUMMERT: Did you ever run into people who were curious or wondered why TVA was involved in this kind of work?

BARTLOW: No, not really. Most people were very enthusiastic, and 00:35:00glad, and interested and said, "Oh, I didn't know TVA did that." I don't--I didn't run into anybody that I can think of that was disagreeing with that project. It was really a "white hat" project. I was lucky to work in such a--such a positive--

MUMMERT: And there weren't any--oh, inter-agency disagreements or squabbles that were that serious?

BARTLOW: No. I don't remember any.

MUMMERT: Well, you said that, I think--in the beginning you mentioned that Roger Bollinger or the foresters selected 17 areas. Is that right?

BARTLOW: Yes, I think that was the number. I might've forgotten the numbers, but it was about that.

MUMMERT: Well, you don't have to be exact. But through the years, how--did that evolve to a larger number? And how many were there when, say, you retired?

BARTLOW: Phil, you're asking me a hard one. I think there were over 10,000 acres--ish, 10,000ish acres--because there were some very large acres in Alabama on Wheeler. And I don't remember the numbers; I just don't.

MUMMERT: Were they in all seven Tennessee Valley states?

BARTLOW: No, we didn't have any--let me think, here. We didn't have any in Virginia and none in Georgia, that I can think of. The Ocoee had rare plants but they were on the rocks in the middle of the rivers and they weren't 00:37:00designated as natural areas. But there were in, let me think, Tennessee, Alabama, Kentucky were the majority of the sites. And Kentucky.

MUMMERT: Where were--where were the sites in Kentucky?

BARTLOW: Let me think, I have to think about this.

MUMMERT: Well, I'm going to ask you for an example of the sites in Kentucky and Alabama. Well, you mentioned--is Nickajack in--the bat caves--is that in Alabama or Tennessee?

BARTLOW: Tennessee.

MUMMERT: Oh OK. Can you remember any in the State of Kentucky or Alabama that come to mind?

BARTLOW: Alabama--Alabama had--had several caves that were 00:38:00significant. And I guess on Kentucky Reservoir, we had--we had a natural area and cave. But that was on Kentucky Reservoir, not necessarily in Kentucky. We had one waterfall in Mississippi.

MUMMERT: Now, I didn't know there were any waterfalls in Mississippi, but--

BARTLOW: It was on Pickwick.

MUMMERT: Uh huh.

BARTLOW: And I've forgotten the name of it.

MUMMERT: That's alright. I'm going to ask you some of the more difficult questions now.

BARTLOW: OK.

MUMMERT: What was your--the most important accomplishment, in your mind, during your career at TVA?

BARTLOW: Well, I always go to the people that were supportive of natural areas--people in other agencies that I worked with, and people from within TVA, and people from the general public. And they were always supportive, and helpful, and interested in the work. And we couldn't have done it without all these people.

MUMMERT: And you were fortunate to be in a position to be able to interact and work with people outside of TVA too.

BARTLOW: Yes, yes. And, you know, I could pretty much do whatever I wanted, within parameters of course. But I had leeway to --to work with 00:40:00people, and volunteers, and to start projects.

MUMMERT: What was your most memorable experience? Good or bad?

BARTLOW: Oh--memorable experience. Gosh, Phil, that is a hard question. Well, we, I think, at Nickajack Cave. It was a big cave and it was hard to manage. And we had such good cooperation from the state wildlife officer there. And we were able to designate it a watchable wildlife area and a--

MUMMERT: Do you remember his name?

BARTLOW: Mike --Mike--Well, it'll come to me.

MUMMERT: Alright.

BARTLOW: Maybe it'll come to me. Build a trail from the campground--the swimming area--it wasn't a campground--the swimming area out to the cave. So people--and a viewing platform--so people could go out and watch the bats emerge and that was a big thing to get people--I mean, people have such misconceptions about bats as vampires and they get caught in your hair and they want to bite you. People could go out in the evening and watch the bats come out and learn about them in a friendly, positive way. And so that was a big accomplishment, working with state wildlife people and the local resident manager there and 00:42:00to turn people's attitudes around. And it had been a very hard cave to manage. We had a big incident where a fellow and his buddy had scuba gear and wanted to get inside the cave. And it was gated--is gated three-quarters of the way across its big opening. And it's gated three-quarters high because gray bats won't fly through a gate. They'll only fly over a gate. And so he went with scuba gear under the cave gate back into the cave and followed the water and then ran out of passage and air. So he held onto--do you want to know this Phil?

MUMMERT: Yes, this is interesting.

BARTLOW: Well, he held onto a stalactite and he didn't come out and didn't come out. His buddy went for help. The local cave rescue people came from Alabama. I got a phone call in the middle of the night saying this guy was stuck in the cave and they had to lower the water in Nickajack and cut the gate--the fence opening--to get him out. And they finally got him out. And the Endangered Species Act has a clause in it that says if life and limb is in jeopardy, then the Endangered Species Act sort of goes out the window. And he was in jeopardy of drowning, of course. And so we couldn't prosecute him under the Endangered Species Act, but later our legal staff, I think, charged him with 00:44:00vandalism and charged him with some of the expenses to lower the water, and replace the gate, and do all these physical maintenance issues. And he was charged with that. He ended up on television on a religious channel talking about how he'd seen the Lord back in the cave. Johnny Cash actually supposedly was in that cave before it was flooded. And it was a dark period in his young life and he went back in the cave and just waited to die. And it didn't happen and he came out and said he'd seen the Lord. So it's quite an interesting--it's got quite an interesting history. It was used for saltpeter--mining saltpeter during the Civil War, as many of these caves were from bat guano.

MUMMERT: Well, it's important and interesting also to know what TVA employees and professionals have to contend with.

BARTLOW: Well, there are a lot of interesting projects--problems.

MUMMERT: Can you remember any others?

BARTLOW: Let me think here a minute. I guess cave vandalism is one of the hardest things to manage because many caves you can't gate and they become sort of exotic spots for young vandals to go in and try to shoot bats off the ceiling or vandalize the cave. And so they're always hard-- hard places to 00:46:00protect. And we don't ever advertise, other than Nickajack, which is unusual. But we never advertise locations of caves that have bat populations.

MUMMERT: That event and the observation of bats at Nickajack continues today.

BARTLOW: Yes, I'm happy to say.

MUMMERT: The--I'm still on this one question of what was your most memorable experience. If you have any more, feel free to add. Otherwise, I'm going to ask you a question or two and probably wind down the interview.

BARTLOW: OK, go ahead.

MUMMERT: You have any memorable experiences that you want to talk about yet or important accomplishments, other than dealing with the people?

BARTLOW: Well, there was one lady that came on a river bluff wildflower walk. She and her husband came and they were both deaf. And we didn't have a deaf interpreter, so I thought I'd give it a try and see if I could help, you know, try to communicate with them. I don't know how good of job I did, but you know it was just the range of people that came to see wildflowers and learn--learn about them. So that--that really sort of stands out in my memory about how diverse the populations were that came.

MUMMERT: Are there any questions that I have not asked that you wish I had?

BARTLOW: Well, just to say that in our project area, we had Leo Collins was our botanist, Chuck Nicholson and--was our zoologist for most of that time, Hill Henry became our zoologist, and Peggy Shute was an aquatic biologist. We had these specialists that I worked with over the years and they were in, you know--they were all part of this project. I wasn't alone by any means. And so we all worked together on these projects. Ralph Jordan was the head of 00:49:00the Natural Areas--or, what were we called, oh me, my brain--our project area. Ralph was the head of our project area--manager.

MUMMERT: I don't know. Was it Natural Areas or?

BARTLOW: No. It was Natural Heritage.

MUMMERT: Oh OK.

BARTLOW: Natural Heritage Project.

MUMMERT: But that was the--I'm not--the project was basically all of what you've been talking about.

BARTLOW: Oh, Well, it was much more than that. This was just a piece of that. We had a data base of endangered species around the Valley, in the 207-county area.

MUMMERT: I see.

BARTLOW: And--and our biologist knew these locations and kept all the information on maps--quad maps around the Valley. So if TVA was going 00:50:00to put in a new power line or do maintenance--particularly if they were going to route a new power line or had a new project--a water line that came across TVA land, we could look and see if there were endangered species. And they did field work looking for endangered species also.

MUMMERT: Yes, and that's--that's important, obviously. It's important for this interview that you raised that though and that we got to talk about it a little bit because initially you mentioned, you know, some of the foresters basically identifying special areas that they had seen through their experience that they thought should be protected or dealt with in a certain way. But, really at the beginning of your TVA career and through most of it, TVA and many others were adjusting to the environmental movement.

BARTLOW: Yes.

MUMMERT: And a lot of new tools and information was emerging. We took it for granted, I think, when we were working. But looking back, the information--just having information about all the endangered species for an area the size of the Tennessee Valley is pretty incredible in itself.

BARTLOW: It is. And I think what people don't realize--and people inside TVA and outside--is that TVA, because of the snail darter controversy on the Duck River,[2] was the first--let's see was it the first--the first or second agency to develop a national heritage program that surveyed for endangered species on TVA land and shared that information with 00:52:00each state. So each state knew what we were doing, where it was, what we had found, and we kept a very large data base of all that information. Mississippi was either the first or the second, but I think we had the largest data base. For a long time, we had the largest data base of all the Federal agencies in the United States, including the Indian reservations.

MUMMERT: And you shared that information, I'm sure, with like the National Park Service and the Smoky Mountains National Park?

BARTLOW: I can't remember if we shared--I would think we would, but I can't remember that part. We shared it with Fish and Wildlife Service, of 00:53:00course, and all the state and natural heritage--the heritage programs as they were developed through the years.

MUMMERT: Do you think the development of that information and the sharing of it was partly triggered by the Tellico controversy and the snail darter? Or was it happening before just prior to that within TVA?

BARTLOW: I think it was as a result of that. But there were people--I wasn't working then with heritage. And so there are other people who would have better memory--Bill Redmond, Ralph Jordan, worked on early surveys then. So I think they have a better memory of that than I.

MUMMERT: Well, Judith, it was nice interviewing you and I'd like to 00:54:00give you the opportunity to say any final words you would like to about your job or TVA.

BARTLOW: Well, thanks Phil. I enjoyed this. It's--you know, I don't talk to that many people out here in Wyoming about what I do.

MUMMERT: Not about TVA.

BARTLOW: No. Although, seriously, I take a yoga class and there's a gentleman in my yoga class that worked for TVA at one of the nuclear plants--one of the proposed nuclear plant sites. And he worked briefly for TVA and then they closed it and closed the project down. I thought that was sort of unusual. It's been a pleasure to think back on these times and to remember all of the people that came before me that contributed to this. And it was sort of a golden 00:55:00time, I think, because we had the people who were early employees--foresters with TVA at the very beginning in the 1930s. Many of them are gone now, but it was such a privilege to know them and to do the work that I got to do through the years. And I know that they have good people--I have not kept up with the staff now, but I know they have good people that are doing the same sort of work and more.

MUMMERT: Well, thank you again and I'm going to be turning off the recorder now.

BARTLOW: OK, thanks Phil.