Interview with Charles "Chuck" Ludlam, June 21, 2021

Partial Transcript: Hello. Today's June 21, 2021. My name is Jay Sztuk. I was a Peace Corps Volunteer in Fiji from 1974 through 1976. And today, I'm going to be interviewing Charles Ludlum who was a Peace Corps Volunteer in Nepal from, uh, 1968, um, or--'68 through '70, right Chuck?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam grew up in Los Angeles, California. As a child, Ludlam spent a year on a ranch in Arizona which first exposed him to rural living conditions and contact with Native Americans. Ludlam attended Stanford University and led the anti-war movement there from 1965 to 1967.

Keywords: American University; Arizona; California; Contributions; Los Angeles (Calif.); Stanford University; Vietnam War

Subjects: Childhood; College students--Attitudes; Minorities; Peace Corps (U.S.)--1960-1970; Peace Corps (U.S.)--2000-2010; Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.)--Senegal; Universities and colleges; Washington (D.C.)

Partial Transcript: I was--I applied for the Peace Corps. I, uh, finished, uh, Stanford and was admitted to go to Tonga.

Segment Synopsis: Initially, Ludlam was posted to Tonga. Ludlam deferred this assignment and went to law school at the University of Michigan, instead. Ludlam remained politically active. In 1968, because of changes to the military draft, graduate students lost their student deferment status. So, Ludlam re-applied to the Peace Corps and said he would only serve in Nepal, a posting which he was granted.

Keywords: Applying; California; Changes; Chicago (Ill.); Deaths; Eugene McCarthy; Graduate schools; Los Angeles (Calif.); Lyndon B. Johnson; Military drafts; Robert Kennedy; Stanford University; University of Michigan

Subjects: Draft resisters.; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Tonga; Universities and colleges; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements

Partial Transcript: Um, and then I started Peace Corps training.

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam had pre-service training in Davis, California to become an agricultural extension agent. By the time Ludlam had completed pre-service training, his draft board still had not granted him a new deferment. But eventually, it did, on appeal. By then, Ludlam had been in Nepal for a year.

Keywords: Davis (Calif.); Deaths; Haight-Ashbury (Calif.); John Birch Society; Lewis B. Hershey; Military drafts; Pre-service training; Problems; Robert Kennedy; San Marino (Calif.); Stanford University; Vietnam War

Subjects: Draft resisters.; Emotions; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Stress (Psychology); Universities and colleges; Vietnam; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements; Volunteer workers in horticulture

Partial Transcript: Any of your--were your parents or any of your family surprised that you selected, uh, uh, to go in the Peace Corps?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam's family, while having reservations about his going to Nepal, saw Peace Corps as preferable to his going to jail or going to Canada, as Ludlam would refuse to join the military. Ludlam considered himself rugged and adventurous and was attracted by the challenges of serving in Nepal.

Keywords: Challenges; Decisions; Himalayas; Isolation; Motivation; Self-confidence

Subjects: Canada; Chad; Draft resisters.; Haiti; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Protest movements

Partial Transcript: Do you remember the--which, uh, Nepal training group you were in?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam describes general aspects of the Peace Corps situation in Nepal. Nepal was the most requested Peace Corps country but also had the highest rate of early terminations and the highest rate of extensions. Many Volunteers in Nepal had medical terminations. Drugs, like heroin, were also legal in Nepal and could become a problem for Volunteers.

Keywords: Drugs; Early terminations; Extensions; Himalayas; Illness; Mt. Everest; Nepal 17; Peace Corps directors; Sickness

Subjects: Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Volunteers

Partial Transcript: Did you do all of your training in Davis?

Segment Synopsis: For Ludlam, the first half of pre-service training was in Davis, California. The second half was in Nepal. Because transportation was difficult in Nepal, Ludlam had to travel east through part of India to get to his work site.

Keywords: Bihar (India); Davis (Calif.); Melangwa (Nepal); Trains; Transportation; Traveling

Subjects: India; International travel; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal

Partial Transcript: So, I show up in my, uh, village.

Segment Synopsis: Communication was a problem as 4 local languages were used in Ludlam's village. The villagers had never seen a white person before and were uncertain why Ludlam was there. Initially, Ludlam was housed in an empty school room. Ludlam describes the jungle terrain around his village. Ludlam had a 15-mile jaunt to pick up his mail. To communicate with the Peace Corps office, Ludlam needed to go to Melangwa and send a telegram. Every 3 months, Ludlam needed to make the 3-day trip each way to Kathmandu to get another gamma globulin shot. There were 3 other Volunteers in Ludlam's area but they rarely saw each other. Ludlam was fascinated by the local mix of indigenous, Nepalese, and Modesti peoples and cultures.

Keywords: Challenges; Communication; Dangerous; Dangers; Distance; Fluency; Foreigners; Haripur (Nepal); Hindi (Language); Housing; Illness; Inoculations; Kathmandu (Nepal); Language barriers; Language skills; Living alone; Local languages; Medicine; Melangwa (Nepal); Nepalese (Language); Problems; Sickness; Traveling; Uncertainty; Villages

Subjects: India; International travel; Language and languages; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Volunteers

Partial Transcript: I had a fantastic counterpart.

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam's project was to help with the introduction of new, high-yield rice, wheat, and corn. Ludlam and his counterpart would set up demonstration plots and the new seeds gave 30 to 40 times better yields than the local variety. To replicate these results, the local farmers would first need to invest in chemical fertilizer. The local people had difficulty grasping this innovation. During his service, Ludlam persuaded only one farmer to try it. When Ludlam returned in 1998, everyone was using this practice.

Keywords: Changes; Counterparts; Cultural differences; Deaths; Difficult; Emails; Improvements; Local people; Locals; Returning; Risks; Traveling

Subjects: Finance; Food security; International travel; Mexico; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Philippines; United Nations

Partial Transcript: But then, you know, I had fantastic people.

Segment Synopsis: At his village, Ludlam was able to make several close friends with whom he is still in contact. Ludlam eventually moved into his own place, although the physical conditions remained challenging. Ludlam found the people very hospitable and curious about him.

Keywords: Attitudes; Changes; Counterparts; Cultural differences; Friends; Living alone; Local people; Locals; Outhouses; Socializing; Weather

Subjects: Hygiene; Interpersonal relations; Lifestyles; Manners and customs; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Volunteers

Partial Transcript: And then, I got to do hikes in the Himalayas. In our spare time, I had a month in Afghanistan on a vacation trip in 1970.

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam spent some spare time hiking in the mountains. Ludlam also traveled in Afghanistan for a month and spent time in Cambodia and Burma. Ludlam still has reunions with members of his cohort.

Keywords: Angkor Wat (Cambodia); Dangerous; Dangers; Himalayas; Khmer Rouge; Returned Peace Corps Volunteers; South Dakota; Traveling

Subjects: Afghanistan; Burma; Cambodia; International travel; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Recreation

Partial Transcript: And so it was fantastic. And, um, um, really exotic, thought provoking, really good quality work, wonderful people.

Segment Synopsis: Overall, Ludlam had a very positive experience in Nepal. Admittedly, it was physically challenging and Ludlam had bouts of illness. Ludlam reflects on what was necessary to be a successful Volunteer in Nepal at that time.

Keywords: Characteristics; Communication; Cultural differences; Illness; Kathmandu (Nepal); Melangwa (Nepal); Mentality; Peace Corps staff; Questions; Second Goal; Sickness; Traveling

Subjects: Emotions; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Senegal

Partial Transcript: Just, uh, look, looking back, what did that service mean to you and how did, how did it change you as a person?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam's service gave him the self-confidence and resilience to face difficult challenges. Ludlam came to view political differences as cross-cultural, which enabled him to work with others who belonged to another political party. Peace Corps service also gave Ludlam a thirst for adventure, which contributed to his traveling to 85 countries. Ludlam met the woman he married, who had been a Volunteer in Kenya, at a Peace Corps function. Eventually, Ludlam served a second tour of service with the Peace Corps.

Keywords: Activities; Challenges; Conflicts; Cooperation; Difficult; Personal growth; Perspectives; Resilience; Returned Peace Corps Volunteers; Self-confidence; Traveling; Understanding

Subjects: Africa; Antarctica; Arctic; Chad; Himalayas; International travel; Kenya; Patagonia; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Sahara

Partial Transcript: Did you have an opportunity to, to extend?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam chose to return to law school rather than to extend his service as he envisioned a career in politics. After finishing law school, Ludlam eventually became a U.S. congressional staff member. Ludlam also became a member of President Carter's administration for 2 years and worked at the Federal Trade Commission for 3 years. Ludlam spent 8 years as the main lobbyist for the biotechnology industry. Ludlam has helped set up public policy programs at Stanford University and has mentored and taught students as well.

Keywords: Biotechnology industry; Capitol Hill (Washington, D.C.); Coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19); Dangerous; Dangers; Excited; Extensions; Funding; George Washington University; Georgetown University; Internships; Jimmy Carter; Mt. Kilimanjaro; Plans; Politics and government; Stanford University; Unprepared; Villages; White House (Washington, D.C.)

Subjects: Africa; COVID-19 (Disease); Education, Higher; Emotions; Health; Kenya; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Teaching; Universities and colleges

Partial Transcript: And then you decided to join Peace Corps again.

Segment Synopsis: As Ludlam neared retirement age, his wife suggested that they re-join the Peace Corps. The Ludlams requested an assignment in French-speaking Africa. The Ludlams accepted a posting to Senegal.

Keywords: Arrangements; Dakar (Senegal); Distance; French (Language); George Bush; Medical clearance; Older volunteers; Preparation; Problems

Subjects: Health; Hospitals; Mali; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Senegal; Retirement; Sahel; Senegal

Partial Transcript: And, um, well, tell me about your training and, uh, and how the training the second time around, uh, differed from, uh, from your first experience.

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam believes that the pre-service training was poor and the projects were not well designed to give the Volunteers a sustainable goal which could be achieved in 2 years. There were no written materials to study for language training. The Peace Corps staff had little respect for Volunteers. Ludlam describes the various secondary projects which he and his wife started at their work site. Ludlam and his wife were the first Volunteers sent to the village of Guinguinéo, where they stayed with a wonderful host family. As evidenced by hundreds of responses to an article Ludlam wrote in WorldView magazine, the problems which Ludlam identified in Senegal were widespread in other Peace Corps programs. Despite conflicts with the Peace Corps staff in Senegal, the Ludlams enjoyed living in their village. In part using their own money, the Ludlams traveled extensively in Africa during their 2 years of service in Senegal and when returning home from Senegal.

Keywords: Changes; Coming home; Commitments; Community involvement; Counterparts; Criticism; Dakar (Senegal); Differences; Extensions; Fears; First Goal; Guinguinéo (Senegal); Host family; Language training; Leaving; Older volunteers; Peace Corps directors; Peace Corps staff; Post-colonial; Prejudice; Press; Questions; Quitting; Returning; Secondary projects; Sexual harassment; Site mates; Site visits; Sustainability; Traveling; Villages; Wolof (Language)

Subjects: Benin; Burkina Faso; Emotions; Ethiopia; France; International travel; Kenya; Madagascar; Mauritania; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Senegal; Senegal; Togo

Partial Transcript: Well, let me just talk about how the experience was different.

Segment Synopsis: In Senegal, Ludlam and his wife were serving together as a couple. The Ludlams' living conditions were not as strenuous as at their previous assignments. Means of communication and transportation were better in Senegal. The Ludlams are still in contact with people in Nepal, Kenya, and Senegal. Ludlam sees basic similarities between the characteristics of the Volunteers from his 2 times of service.

Keywords: Amenities; Cell phones; Characteristics; Technology

Subjects: Emotions; Kenya; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Kenya; Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.)--Senegal; Senegal; Volunteers

Partial Transcript: So, we, we arrive in Senegal and we assume that the Peace Corps has made great use of the 40 intervening years to define fabulous jobs for the Volunteers, incredible useful training, great language training, great site placement with counterparts. (Shrugs.) That, that's what we thought it would be like. Had no clue. None of that was true.

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam was surprised and disturbed by multiple aspects of the Peace Corps programs in Senegal. Ludlam attempted to raise some of these issues, including contacting the Peace Corps director in Washington, D.C., which had no positive impact. Ludlam was in contact with the staff of Senator Dodd who was on the committee which oversaw the Peace Corps. Consequently, Ludlam authored a bill to reform the Peace Corps, which was submitted to Congress by Dodd. When the Ludlams were invited to testify before Congress on the bill, they were initially threatened with termination by the Peace Corps. Ultimately, after hearing the testimony, Dodd did not follow up by promoting the bill. Subsequently, Ludlam's article regarding Peace Corps reform appeared in WorldView magazine despite threats from the Peace Corps to de-fund the publication. After returning from Senegal, Ludlam became a member of President-elect Obama's transition team, which was interested in doubling the number of Peace Corps Volunteers. Ludlam again advocated for reform of the Peace Corps first but was unsuccessful. Ludlam argues that the Peace Corps needs to be de-centralized to make it more cost effective and sustainable. Ludlam wrote a scathing, 200-page report about the Peace Corps and put it online.

Keywords: Accountability; Barack Obama; Christopher Dodd; Clothing; Coming home; Counterparts; Criticism; Disappointment; Empowerment; Expectations; Funding; George W. Bush; Invitations; Language training; Peace Corps directors; Preparation; Returning; Sites; Special occasions; Sustainability; Traveling; Volunteers for Prosperity

Subjects: Finance; International travel; Non-governmental organizations; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Senegal; Senegal; Washington (D.C.)

Partial Transcript: Then, it gets worse. We found out that Kate Puzey, a Volunteer in Benin, had been murdered by Peace Corps staff.

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam describes the situation surrounding the murder of a Volunteer in Benin. Ludlam became an advisor to the Puzey family and eventually, the television show "20/20" did an exposé on Peace Corps problems. Based on one year's data from Volunteers, Ludlam came out with a ranking of best and worst Peace Corps countries and best and worst Peace Corps country staff. Eventually, Ludlam found a receptive audience in Carrie Hessler-Radelet and worked with her for 18 months to enact reforms at the Peace Corps.

Keywords: Carrie Hessler-Radelet; Changes; Criticism; Deaths; First Goal; Improvements; Interviews; Kate Puzey; Media; Murders; Peace Corps directors; Peace Corps staff; Rape; Reforms; Sexual assault; Students; Whistleblowers

Subjects: Bangladesh; Benin; Kenya; Peace Corps (U.S.)

Partial Transcript: And then the question is, what, what should happen now with the Peace Corps, right?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam argues that there must be viable projects, otherwise Peace Corps just becomes an expensive cross-cultural experience. Ludlam feels that, ideally, the Volunteers should be older and more professionally experienced. Peace Corps should cooperate more with non-governmental organizations and U.S.A.I.D. Peace Corps needs to de-centralize and be less bureaucratic.

Keywords: Bureaucracy; Cooperation; Criticism; Diversity in the Peace Corps; First Goal; John F. Kennedy; Older volunteers

Subjects: Non-governmental organizations; Peace Corps (U.S.); United States. Agency for International Development

Partial Transcript: What are your reflections on, on this?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam had a fabulous time serving twice as a Volunteer. Throughout his career, Ludlam has been involved with the Peace Corps in various ways. In spite of all the ups and downs, Ludlam is satisfied with his accomplishments.

Keywords: Activities; Career paths; Friends; Personal growth; Relationships

Subjects: Emotions; Interpersonal relations; Kenya; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Peace Corps (U.S.)--Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.)--Senegal; Senegal; Volunteers; Washington (D.C.)

Partial Transcript: A young person asks you about joining the Peace Corps and what advice you would give them and then an, an over 60s person asks you about joining the Peace Corps, and what, what would you say?

Segment Synopsis: Ludlam recommends the Peace Corps to others but adds some caution about selecting a country of service. Ludlam feels that the very existence of the Peace Corps reflects well on the U.S.

Keywords: American University; Capitol Hill; Contributions; First Goal; John F. Kennedy; Second Goal; Third Goal

Subjects: Bhutan; Burma; Nepal; Peace Corps (U.S.); Racism; Retirement; Senegal