Interview with Christopher Pramuk,

Partial Transcript: And I'm rolling whenever you're ready.

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about the essay, "Fire Watch," by Thomas Merton, which he read as a teenager. He describes the content of the essay. He also describes the spiritual impact the essay had on him and the theme of mercy in the essay.

Keywords: Fear and awe; Fire Watch

Subjects: Abbey of Our Lady of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Chapels; Essays.; Mercy.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Monasteries.; Monks.; Mortality.; Prayers.; Writing.

Partial Transcript: So-so as a teenager, what attracted you to that?

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about what attracted him to Thomas Merton. He talks about the dialogue Merton had with silence in works such as "Fire Watch." He describes the comfort he took in Merton's writing.

Keywords: Beauty; Connectedness; Connection; Fire Watch

Subjects: Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Mystery.; Silence.; Spirituality.; Teenagers.; Universe.

Partial Transcript: And at what point did you think that you wanted to make a career out of studying Merton's works and the works of all these other--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about when he decided to make a career out of studying Thomas Merton. He talks about his interest in theology in his late twenties and early thirties. He describes returning to Merton during the Iraq War and during his doctoral studies. He speaks of how Merton taught how to have dialogue with people of other religions while remaining rooted in Jesus Christ.

Keywords: Doctoral studies; Iraq War; Second Iraq War

Subjects: Dialogue.; Iraq War, 2003-2011; Jesus Christ.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Religions.; Sophia; Theology.; Wisdom.

Partial Transcript: So y--you, you said that you, um, is Merton normally part of a traditional theological training?

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about whether Merton is associated with the formal theological canon. He describes Merton as a mystical and monastic theologian.

Keywords: Monastic tradition; Mystical theologians; Mystical theology; New age spirituality

Subjects: Canon; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Monasteries.; Monks.; Mysticism.; Mystics.; Psychology.; Spirituality.; Theology.

Partial Transcript: So what is going on in his life in nineteen fifty-seven and fifty-eight?

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk describes Thomas Merton's life in 1957 and 1958. He talks about the Russian writers and theologians he was reading and corresponding with. He also describes Merton's fascination with the Christian East as well as the non-Christian East.

Keywords: Czeslaw Milosz; D. T. Suzuki; Doctor Zhivago; Eastern Orthodox Church; Interbeing; Iron Curtain; Non-duality; Nondualism; Plurality; Sergei Bulgakov; Suzuki

Subjects: Bulgakov, S. N. (Sergeĭ Nikolaevich); Cold War.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Miłosz, Czesław.; Orthodox Eastern Church.; Paris (France); Pasternak, Boris Leonidovich, 1890-1960.; Russian literature.; Suzuki, Daisetz Teitaro, 1870-1966.; Theology.; Zen Buddhism.

Partial Transcript: Well so how did his superiors--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk discusses whether Thomas Merton got into trouble for his writings and beliefs. He says Merton did not begin facing backlash until he started writing about war and peace. He talks about some Catholics' distrust of Merton and others' view of him as a courageous figure.

Keywords: Interreligious dialogue; New Seeds of Contemplation; Seven Storey Mountain (Thomas Merton); The Sign of Jonas; Zen and the Birds of Appetite

Subjects: Catholics.; Globalization.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Monks.; Peace.; War.

Partial Transcript: So the, the ultimate-

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about how exploring other religions can deepen one's own faith. He talks about how interfaith dialogue can promote thinking about things from a new perspective, and his belief of how trusting in God can allow oneself to understand the mystery.

Keywords: Catholicism; Interfaith dialogue

Subjects: Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Monks; Religions.

Partial Transcript: So, so his exploration--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk discusses whether Thomas Merton's exploration of other religions was a result of discontent or curiosity. He talks about how Merton would argue that God is present in all of humanity regardless of religion. He also talks about Merton's excitement about meeting the Dalai Lama.

Keywords: Dalai Lama; Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.; Letter from Birmingham Jail; Letter to a White Liberal

Subjects: Asia.; Bstan-ʼdzin-rgya-mtsho, Dalai Lama XIV, 1935-; Catholic Church.; Christianity.; Faith.; God.; Jesus Christ.; King, Martin Luther, Jr., 1929-1968.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Religions.; Truth.

Partial Transcript: On at some point?

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about whether Thomas Merton ever had to answer for his views. He says that Merton recognized his marginality. However, he says that Merton put his faith in God to guide him.

Keywords: Marginality; Margins

Subjects: God.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Pentecost.; Prayer.; Writing.

Partial Transcript: Did Merton ever--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk discusses whether Merton questioned God's existence. He talks about Merton's willingness to trust in love and to surrender himself to God.

Keywords: Abandonment; Doubt; Margie Smith; Surrender

Subjects: Belief and doubt.; Faith.; God.; Love.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.

Partial Transcript: Getting back to the-

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about the counterculture movement in the United States in the sixties and its curiosity with Eastern traditions. He says many people realized they were not the center of the world and wanted to learn about other cultures. He also acknowledges East Asia's exploration of Western traditions.

Keywords: East; Eastern philosophy; The Beatles; United Kingdom; WWII; West; Western philosophy; World War 2; World War II; World War Two

Subjects: America.; Beatles; Cold War.; Counterculture.; God.; Great Britain.; Humanity.; India.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Violence.; War.; World War II

Partial Transcript: So as Merton begins--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about Thomas Merton's writings on Zen Buddhism and Eastern traditions. He talks about Merton's desire to struggle with deep questions. He mentions Merton's dialogue with Suzuki. He also says that Merton acknowledged that his own upbringing and traditions influence his understanding of other traditions.

Keywords: DT Suzuki; East; Eastern philosophy; Interfaith dialogue; Interreligious dialogue; Mystics and Zen Masters; Suzuki; West; Western philosophy; Zen and the Birds of Appetite

Subjects: Buddhism; Christianity; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Religions.; Suzuki, Daisetz Teitaro, 1870-1966.; Zen Buddhism.

Partial Transcript: To the broader population?

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk says that Thomas Merton's popularity made his writings about East Asia popular. He says that Merton acted as a conduit through which people could learn about the region. Pramuk then explains that Merton might have influenced institutions to hire people to lecture at universities to teach about the topic.

Keywords: East; East Asia; Eastern philosophy; Theological colleges; Theological universities; West; Western philosophy

Subjects: Catholic Church.; Catholics.; Hinduism.; Islam.; Judaism.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Mysticism.; Sufism.

Partial Transcript: Was this more the, the lower level that this was going?

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk explains that the Second Vatican Council occurred at the same time as Thomas Merton published his books about Eastern philosophy. He talks about the influence of the Council's documents on how Catholics relate to and interact with people of other religions.

Keywords: Eastern philosophy; Interreligious dialogue; Second Vatican Council; Vatican II; Western philosophy

Subjects: Catholic Church.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Vatican Council (2nd : 1962-1965 : Basilica di San Pietro in Vaticano)

Partial Transcript: Let me tell you one.

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about Merton's exploration of the biblical books of Proverbs and Wisdom in the 1950s. He talks about some of Merton's dreams. He also mentions Merton's exploration of Russian literature. He talks about Merton's visualization of the unity of creation.

Keywords: Divine Wisdom Child; Unity of creation

Subjects: Bible.; Dreams; God.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Pasternak, Boris Leonidovich, 1890-1960.; Proverbs.; Russian literature.; Wisdom.

Partial Transcript: And yet again, here's a--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about Thomas Merton's friendship with artist Viktor Hammer and their correspondence on how God is both Father and Mother. He talks about Merton's views on masculinity and femininity within religion. He also talks about Merton's views about women's roles in the church.

Keywords: Catholicism; Gender roles; Hierarchical structure; Power structures; Pyramid structure; Sophia; Viktor Hammer

Subjects: Catholic Church.; Fathers.; Femininity.; God.; Mary, Blessed Virgin, Saint.; Masculinity.; Matriarchy.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Mothers.; Patriarchy.; Religion; Women in church work.

Partial Transcript: Merton writes an essay on Malcom X in the late sixties that I think is still an extraordinary essay.

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about Thomas Merton's essay, "The Meaning of Malcolm X." He describes Merton's views on Malcolm X. Pramuk also talks about Merton's analysis of race and social justice. He speaks about how Merton's separateness from the world allowed him to have more clarity and talks about Merton's warnings against becoming too worldly.

Keywords: "The Meaning of Malcom X"; Accomodation; Cloistered monks; Malcolm Little; Malcolm X; Malik el-Shabazz; Separateness; Separation; Social activism

Subjects: Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Monks.; Prayer; Race; Social justice; Solitude; X, Malcolm, 1925-1965.

Partial Transcript: I wish we had more time--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk talks about Thomas Merton's love of jazz. He talks about how Merton connected jazz with spiritual living. He also describes how the nature of jazz illustrated the way Merton wanted to live his life.

Keywords: Catholicism; Monasticism; Spiritual living

Subjects: Dance.; Jazz.; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.; Music.; Musicians.; Spirituality.

Partial Transcript: It also strikes me as it's another example of--

Segment Synopsis: Pramuk says that Merton can teach people today about how not to lose hope. He describes some of the feelings of disillusionment and cynicism that people may feel today. He talks about Merton's teachings about how to cultivate a relationship with God. He also explains how Merton can be a spiritual companion for people.

Keywords: Cynicism; Disillusionment; God's presence; Relationship with God

Subjects: Cynicism.; God.; Hope; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968.