Interview with Samara Davis, December 10, 2021

2021oh1034_bikw0024_davis_subref.m4a

Davis: You're the host.

Fernheimer: Alright, well--

Davis: You have my permission. Just for legal purposes, yes.

Fernheimer: Yeah, that's what--I'll send you a release form after um--

Davis: I think I signed it, didn't I--didn't you send it?

Fernheimer: Every time we do one, I have to send you a new release form, so.

Davis: Oh, okay.

Fernheimer: Um, anyway, let me take a sip and we'll actually get started. Good morning, it is such a pleasure to see you. Um, my name is Jan Fernheimer, and I'm a professor of writing, rhetoric, and digital studies, the Zantker Charitable Foundation, professor and director of Jewish Studies and a faculty fellow at the James B.B. Institute for Kentucky's Spirits here at the University of Kentucky and Lexington. And today is December 10th, 2021. And it's my great honor and pleasure to introduce Samara Davis as part of the Women in Bourbon Oral History Project, and specifically the (??) night funded Black 00:02:00Women in Bourbon Initiative aspect of that project. So, I want to thank you so much for joining me today.

Davis: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Fernheimer: It is a pleasure. It's been a while since we last talked. So, our last interview--it's been almost a month--um, lots been going on. But uh, I had the honor of learning a little bit more about your growing up experiences in California and your trajectory in Higher Ed and arts administration and your early career kind of before (??) culminate to your launching of the Black Bourbon Society. We kind of just got started digging into the like meat and potatoes or tofu and whatever of that experience. And then poof, 2 hours were done--(both laugh)--

Davis: Right?

Fernheimer: It flies when you're having fun, after all. But um, I wanted to kinda pick up there and see if we can explore even more about the beginnings of Black Bourbon Society and all that has come after it today. And that's kinda what I hope the focus for today will be and I'm sure we'll wander, 00:03:00because that's what a good conversation does. But um--

Davis: (??) Assumably.

Fernheimer: Um, so anyway, I--we were just talking a little bit about how Black Bourbon Society got started in 2016 and it was in the summer, does that--is that right?

Davis: It was--yeah, it was May. Was--it was Memorial Day. It was Memorial Day the 31st of um, 2016. And I was heading up a mountain um, going to Tahoe to celebrate my third--my son's--my son's third birthday. Um, and I was in the car and I was just like, I really want to start this. Like, there's a need here. What could the name be? And I remember, you know, we were stuck in traffic. It took us like 8 hours to get over there. Um, I bought the domain name on um, Google domains and I was just like, okay, this is a thing. And like, you know, I always say that that's our birthday is the day that I bought the domain, the day that I, like, brainstormed what the mission would be and all of 00:04:00that. That's--that's our official start date.

Fernheimer: And how did you come up with the name? Like, was it obvious to you that that was going to be the name? Were there other contenders? Tell me about that.

Davis: Um, well one, its something that spoke to me. So, you know, where we left off, I think the last time was that, you know, I kind of fell into this one happenstance, right? Just like being at the right place, having the right skills, um, but then also like really falling in love with bourbon at the same time. And along my bourbon journey, I started joining--I started joining other societies and looking for societies to be a part of so that I could continue to, you know, learn more and meet like-minded people like me. And I had a really hard time doing that. So, I was really looking at society models. So, I looked at the Kentucky Bourbon Society. I looked at Women Who Whiskey or Women in Whiskey. I was looking at um, all these different groups, rights? 00:05:00What's Linda Ruffenach's group? Um--

Fernheimer: --Whiskey Chicks.

Davis: Whiskey Chicks had just started. Uh, so I was looking at that and I really didn't find a place for myself. Like, you know, Whiskey Chicks was in Louisville. I was all the way out in San Francisco. Um, there wasn't--I don't think there was a San Francisco Bourbon Society. If so, they weren't active. Um, there was a Women Who Whiskey group in San Francisco, but it was pretty much inactive. Um, and so when I reached out to them wanting to participate, wanting to join, wanting to be a part of it. I didn't even get a response back. Um, I started looking online for groups and you know, I saw all the bourbon groups. Bourbon (??) R is a big one. Like, you know, all the--the Bourbon Brothers, like all these different groups that were out there. Um, and I joined those as well, but I didn't feel welcomed in those spaces either. You know, it's 00:06:00kind of hard, like whiskey--bourbon is a middle-aged white man's drink, right? Like that's the stereotype of bourbon. But, uh so coming into that, as a 37 some odd year-old Black woman um, from California with children and married like, I didn't quite fit into those groups, those groups, especially the ones that are online, you know, they you know, they were jerks to each other. They talked--they talked so poorly to each other. Uh, here is no class. There is no decorum. They showed pictures of their bottles in--like, with their pants and their crotches in the background, you know, because I guess guys think that that's cool. Um, and then they also--there's always--there's always two types of photos--three types of there's even like the um--the bottles in the in the crotch shots, right. Like in their car. So, you also--you see their pants, you see their--their car symbol. And you also see their watch like it's a 00:07:00total flex mode. Um, but that's one source of image. The other one is a whiskey--like a bourbon and a cigar with the cigar cutter because, you know, you can cut your finger off and that's dangerous. And then the last one is the bourbon with a gun in it. And it's like those three images were all in these male-dominated groups on Facebook. And I was just like, this is not, like--I like bourbon, but all this other stuff, I don't--I don't--I don't need that with my whiskey. Um, so--

Fernheimer: No AR16 for you?--(laughs)--

Davis: I don't need--yeah, like I don't need a pistol next to a bottle of bourbon to drink--like, what is the whole purpose of this? You know, so um, needless to say, I didn't feel like they were for me. So um, with that in mind, it started to be like a twofold thing. And that's exactly what Black Bourbon Society is. It's kind of twofold. I wanted to create a community of 00:08:00folks who look like me and create a dialogue with these folks that look like me. I wanted to create a safe space for African Americans to talk and learn more about whiskey. Um, but I also wanted to cultivate that community because I wanted to prove to the brands that we existed. So, um--and working with the brands of course to produce more events and direct consumer engagement with this audience to help cultivate, help educate, help, you know, help really boost this segment of the demographic of the consumer base up. So that's how I came up with Black Bourbon Society. So, it was--it was twofold always. But I knew that that society piece, the community piece was, was going to be big. And so in honor of all those things that I had to research, that's why I was like, okay, what makes it simple? It's not Kentucky Bourbon Society, it's not San Francisco. It's not Women Bourbon Society, it's Black people. Black Bourbon Society.

Fernheimer: And um, speaking--you mentioned the women. Did you--and I 00:09:00know we met through Bourbon Women somehow.

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: What was your experience there? When did you kind of come into contact with them? Just in terms of the timeline.

Davis: Um, so I don't know when Bourbon Women started, I don't think I found out about Bourbon Women until after Black Bourbon Society had gotten started. And maybe we got started around the same time. But I didn't find out about Bourbon Women until maybe like a year or two into um, BBS. And of course, that was like after I met Peggy Noe Stevens. And I think she was the one who--to inform me about the group and the creation of the group and how they were actually expanding and growing. Um, so I think--I think they're either the same age as us or a little bit younger than BBS.

Fernheimer: I think they started earlier, but I don't know when they started to make their kind of national push.

Davis: Yeah, like--

Fernheimer: --we were pretty Kentucky and honestly, I think 00:10:00Louisville-focused for a while. Okay. So, you came into that a little bit later after Black Bourbon Society. So, I think this dual purpose is really smart and really interesting. Um and so you sought, not just Black women though, but Black people or you said African Americans. So, I want to use--model your language. How do you prefer to refer--

Davis: --um, we can prefer--we can go back and forth. Yes.

Fernheimer: Okay, 'cause I heard not everyone who is black is African-American.

Davis: That's true. That's true. Not everybody who's black is African American. But, you know, as you know, the most PC way to say for people of color. Right. Um, and so then, you know, as we--but it wasn't exclusive for--for just Black people, right. Like it was around this whole idea of inclusion. Um, so it was like, how do you cultivate this audience that is often forgotten, not only in the spirits industry, but in all industries for the most part, 00:11:00especially for the demographic--the age demographic that we're at. But how do you really incorporate that and attract that type of community while also still being inclusive? Um, and so, you know, I get this question all the time. Do you have to be Black or African Americans to join Black Bourbon Society? No. But you do have to believe in the advocacy and the need for more diversity and inclusion in the space. Um, and unfortunately, in some of those other groups on Facebook, those male dominated, you know, societies, those very large groups. Um, they don't want that. They don't want inclusion with their bourbon. They'll have a gun in there with their bourbon, but they don't want inclusion. Uh, so there are some--I should have taken--I normally keep receipts, but I should have taken screenshots of some of the um--some of the main comments that I encountered. And I mean, just people just in the Internet, they just--I don't know 00:12:00if they meant it or not, but those--they are very rude. They're very vicious. Um, not just because I'm a Black woman, but they're vicious with everybody. You know, I just didn't want to participate in that, so.

Fernheimer: So, you're talking a lot about the online spaces. And I understand, because you were in California and that was probably the main way that--

Davis: --yeah--

Fernheimer: --you looked up a lot of these groups. But how did you imagine--so when you sat down and you're on that drive (??) and you're thinking, yes, I've got it, Black Bourbon Society, got a domain, how did you imagine, like the goals of the group? And I hear that two purposes. But did you imagine that kind of in person, online, the relationship about those things? Um, how did you imagine, you know, growing and serving those things? And you said you spent some time writing--oh I'm terrible at asking one question at a time. So, let's start -----------(??)----------

Davis: Um, so, you know, I um, I always said that it would be 00:13:00in-person. Again, as an event planner, um, I'm all about creating the experience. Uh, so it was very much something that I would create for my local community first. Uh, two things about me. I'm all about in-person and I'm all about organic. Everything that I do has to kind of organically grow. Um, I'm not afraid to start small the first time around, prove and then grow it and--and grow a bigger. That kind of irritates my husband. He's just like, goes straight to big, but you know, I'm--I'm with the organic growth of things. So, I--I--I loved--

Fernheimer: You're like a (??) pilot.

Davis: Yeah. Yeah. So um, so yeah. At first it was just for my local community in San Francisco and in the Bay Area and really cultivating that community, having it grow, really be something that really, you know, made a statement in my area. Um, and then as word got out through social media, I was 00:14:00like, okay. It was very clear that the next step that we would do is we would replicate the same exact thing that we were doing in Oakland, over in um, Atlanta, here where I live now, and because this was also a big base of my network um, at the time, so we would do it here. So it had the ability to expand, but it was very much kind of creating these like little clusters of Black Bourbonites, you know. Um, so, you know, but just with evolution, right, as you continue to expand and involve, you know, especially incorporating technology, it really just became easier to throw everybody into a Facebook group. Uh, just from a communication standpoint, I found myself having to do double duty. I was creating messaging for my San Francisco folks, my Bay Area folks, and then for my Atlanta folks, it was just like, no everybody 00:15:00is on Facebook. Let's just throw them all into a group and put out one message. And keep moving on to the next thing you know?

Fernheimer: Crafting those messages, what was important for you to cultivate and convey to your audiences or your constituencies?

Davis: Right, um, education. I'm really big on education and really big on um, the why. So I really wanted my members to not only enjoy experiences that we were creating, right, but to like really understand the process. Um, and so what I've done is everybody's now a whiskey nerd, right? Like, we all know that. We know the basics. We know ABC's of Bourbon. We know how the, you know, the yeast curds, you know, eats up the cereal grains and it turns it into sugars and off gas like it creates this heat, like we all know all the--the--the terminology, the whole process, the science, the chemistry behind making bourbon. 00:16:00Um, but that is what was really important to me, was teaching folks the--the science behind it, like making them understand why the spirit was so special and not like anything else they've ever drank, you know? Um and the -----------(??) for me, if you understood what you were drinking and the why behind it, then I also made you a more conscious consumer. So then like, with equipped with knowledge you're not just going off of like the label or the brand name that everybody's talking about. You could be able to read that label and really come up and make your own buying decisions.

Fernheimer: So it's almost like a model of literacy--literate empowerment.

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: To understand kind of how the process works. So um, let me back up. Let's ask that--I wanna keep going here and then I want to back up to the mission stuff. So I'm just saying--that's--I keep reminding myself. 00:17:00But how--so the ABCs of bourbon. I understand that's something specific. Is that specific content that you developed for your website or for the Bourbon--Black Bourbon Society members, or is that--how did you begin to develop that kind of educational process to create these bourbon nerds who do their stuff?

Davis: Um, so yeah, it was just directly in their newsletters. Uh, we did put some of that on the blog. We had a blog, a part of our--our website. Of course, we would just make posts about it on social media. Um, but then I also wrote. So I would reach out to--I reached out to liquor.com a couple times, I wrote for them. I reached out to Steve Akley and um, you know, the ABV Network. He has a blog called the Bourbon Zeppelin. So I wrote for him um, and I would just write pieces and then I would ask people like, can I guest write, can I get 00:18:00this out? Can I just write these essays?

And I did that because I really wanted, again, not to just educate my audience, but to position myself in the--in the industry as an expert, as someone who knew--knows what they're doing. Um, and so, yeah, that's-- that's how I--I just started writing and blogging and publishing articles, and I would interview people and just get everything. I would join podcasts, uh, just whatever was a medium to get my voice out uh, in a medium, to get my mission out and to attract, you know, folks to hear about my group, to take my group seriously. Um, I was doing all sorts of stuff like that.

Fernheimer: How did you learn or teach yourself how to write those pieces in order to cultivate that kind of expert ethos?

Davis: I want to say, being an art history major --(both laugh)--and 00:19:00doing, you know, tons of papers on, you know, analysis on details and paintings and historical context and all of that really came into play. I've always enjoyed writing. You know, so I always felt like I was a strong writer. Um, but instead of talking about art, I talked about bourbon now, you know.

Fernheimer: Did you take--I mean, the writing teacher in me whose of course, like obsessed with this. So, forgive me for a minute. Were you--were you reading? Like, I think there's a fair amount of kind of bourbon press, right? Like bourbon magazines and those kinds of things. Were you looking to those kinds of um, existing publications for samples--

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: --or models? Or um, I mean, did you talk to Steve or some of these editors? Were they more prescriptive in the kinds of things that they wanted you to write or?

Davis: No, so they let me--they gave me the green light to write whatever I wanted to write about. Um, and, you know, I referred to them in some 00:20:00of my earlier writings as the three wise men. But, you know, there's Chuck Cowdery there's Michael Veach, and then there's oh, my goodness, his name's on top of my--Fred. There's Fred Minnick.

Fernheimer: Yeah.

Davis: Who all have published several books on bourbon. And so, when I first started, I had all you know, I had a collection of their books, and it was really a learning, especially for Veach--

Fernheimer: I'm pointing over here. You can't see them, but they're all stacked up.

Davis: Um, but you know, they've got umm you know, some, especially Veach, he has great historical context, you know, and Chuck Cowdery, you know, being in journalism and being in the industry in Louisville for so long, he's just got great stories, you know, that he writes about. And he's--he's, you know, I love his style writing. He's kind of a -----------(??) with it, too. So um, I learned a lot from them, right. And then just my own observations of going to 00:21:00industry events and--and reaching out to folks and trying to have interviews with and trying to meet with people in the industry. Um, and just, you know, I would write about my own observations, my own experiences, even though they were way limited then than they are now, I should start. Well, I'm writing on something else now, but I mean, I should, you know, be more of a contributor to the spirits industry. Again, I kind of I fell off. I'm not writing that much these days anymore, so.

Fernheimer: There's only so much time in the day, go easy on yourself.

Davis: Yeah, like yeah.

Fernheimer: But yeah, it's really interesting to me kind of how you taught yourself how to be the bourbon expert that you wanted to be.

Davis: Absolutely.

Fernheimer: Um, and so it sounds like from our last interview we talked a lot about how you'd been attending these bartender guild sessions.

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: Um, how did you learn about some of the other, like, kind of credentialing things that you did in order to kind of cultivate that 00:22:00ethos of expertise? So, I know you mentioned that you became--I think both you and Armond are executive bourbon stewards, right?

Davis: Yes.

Fernheimer: How did you even know that you wanted to--that you need to be a bourbon steward or that you need to be an executive bourbon steward. Like, where did you come about stumbling upon that? Because I feel like a lot of even a lot of the nerdy people in these kinds of societies who pride themselves on knowing every little dram and this and that may or may not know about those kinds of accreditations.

Davis: Um, Google is a powerful tool--(Fernheimer laughs)--and I literally would just Google, Google and like, you know, find all these places and, you know, not all certifications are legit, you know what I mean? Like, there's nothing--um, at that time, there wasn't anything like that WSET, right? Like, you couldn't become a sommelier for bourbon, um so--

Fernheimer: -----------(??)---------- right?

Davis: Well, so yes and no, right? Like, you can go through Stave and Thief I think that's the most legit out of all the--the--the programs that are out there, there's a program that's someplace else that's like $4,000, but it's kind of it's kind of wizard camp-ish. I wouldn't do it. It's--it's like there's--there's not that much knowledge about it. But Stave and Thief through university, Moonshine University, that's probably the most respected and reputable one now for that. And then WSET. WSET, they did come up with a um, certification for spirits. So, and I just recently did that. Armond and I both did WSET level two for, you know, expert in spirits or whatever the designation is.

But there's not one specifically to them, especially like not on the 00:24:00level--again, of like becoming like a level four sommelier, but there's nothing like that on the market yet. But I do think as the categories and the spirits are starting to be taken more seriously, I think there will be there's definitely a level three, so there's a higher level for WSET that is pretty intense. I just, you know. Maybe next year.

Fernheimer: I hear you. I was on track to do my Stave and Thief, and then I got pregnant.

Davis: So it's a little hard. You can't do that now--(both laugh)--

Fernheimer: It sort of puts a damper on your palate part.

Davis: Yeah, it does. But, you know, again, I just googled and researched and talked to people and was trying to just find out, like, how--how do I get in and where do I fit in? How where is the where's the intro? And, you know, um, I was looking for conferences. I was--I was looking for any and everything 00:25:00just--and having-- and you know, the best tool, I will say, other than Google, right? Is just talking to people. And so, I will talk to the reps. I would talk to other, you know, bartenders and people in the industry and say, like, how can I--how can I get my foot in the door? Um, and the thing that I love about this industry is that there are no--there are no secrets, like folks are more than happy to introduce you to someone who could help you figure something out. You know, they're more than welcome to say, oh, I know this person in the industry, or I even know the owner. I know the master distiller. Let me connect you two, um, let me make that happen for you. And so that uh, was very, you know, useful. And so, I was able to meet, you know, the owner of Tales of the Cocktail that way. And when I went to New Orleans for the New Orleans Bourbon Festival, I reached out to her and I said, I--I'm going to--I'm only in town for 00:26:00two days, but I'd love to, you know, have coffee with you. Will you meet with me? And, you know, not only did I meet people at, you know, the New Orleans Bourbon Festival the very first year they had it.

Fernheimer: What year was that?

Davis: That was 2017.

Fernheimer: Okay.

Davis: Um, but spring of 2017. But then and having conversations with her and um, telling her what I want to do, she opened up her Rolodex and introduced me to a bunch of people. She also then put me on the diversity council for Tales of the Cocktail, which allowed me to meet, you know, a whole host of folks. And, you know, just one door opens after another and you're in there. Um, but it's--it was really just a tenacity of just making sure I told everybody what my purpose was, what my intention was, and asking for help. I wasn't afraid to ask for help.

Fernheimer: I think that's really key. I think a lot of people are afraid to ask for help or somehow think that that invalidates whatever expertise 00:27:00they're cultivating. And so, I think that's really important.

Davis: I think it's very arrogant for people to come into this industry thinking they know everything and they absolutely know nothing--(both laugh)--you know, like I'm still learning things about the industry. I still get shocked by certain techniques in the bourbon industry or just from especially as we are evolving more into agency work. I'm still learning, you know, what the brands are looking for as far as like what--what how do they qualify and quantify, you know, their impressions with certain demographics, like how to make it more impactful for them. It's forever a learning curve. Um, so, yeah, I'm still asking questions and still making inroads, you know.

Fernheimer: I like that, forever learning curve. So take me back to that kind of moment where you're articulating the mission. What--what--what were 00:28:00the key things for you to write about? Um, how was it important for you to communicate this sort of dual purpose, both for cultivating the community, but also proving the importance of the community for the industry itself?

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: And how did you balance those things as you were writing?

Davis: Um, you know, sometimes I've wrote fun pieces, because not every, you know, your audience doesn't want to always be hit over the head with the same message over and over again. Um, and then other times, I was super passionate about certain things, and I made sure to write about that. Um, but as far as, like, the--my, you know, building my--

Fernheimer: Aw, -----------(??) you're freezing.

Davis: Oh.

Fernheimer: Alright now you're back.

Davis: Okay, so want me to start that question over again?

Fernheimer: The Internet is unstable. I don't know why that is. It's always something. I wonder if my husband's upstairs doing something on the internet. I'll message him while you're talking--(both laugh)--

Davis: Um, okay, so -----------(??)---------- so, um, you know, I--I 00:29:00wanted to prove I was--it was just very important for me, after my experience of working and doing some third party work with one of the brands in San Francisco, it was really important to me that the brands saw my version of blackness -----------(??) and--and--and so my version is very much different. You know, the last time I think we chatted, I was talking about the image of, you know, a young African American male, hip hop bag--you know, sagging baggy pants, long dreads, just like this, very like whole idea of like partying, you know, all night long. And yes, um that's one asset, but that's one aspect of it, right? That's one sort of caricature of a demographic. Uh, but that wasn't 00:30:00me. And I wanted to see myself. I wanted the brands to see who their real drinkers were, who I was as a drinker, um, and that is someone who was educated, someone who loves premium products, um, luxury products, someone who is um, an informed consumer and really does like, want high quality products. You know, um, and I didn't want to be overlooked for that. I didn't want the brands to assume that I (??) didn't drink that and then continue to market and push their premium products to one specific demographic over mine. Um, so I wanted to show them that we were worthy of being able to drink the same thing. And, you know, that's hard to say uh, you know, especially now like from a D&I perspective, you know, it's almost like there was this unwritten segregation in marketing spirits to certain consumers. Um, and I really wanted to get away 00:31:00from that. I really thought that that was unfair. And I--it's almost--I was offended. I think offended is a really good word to use for that. So, it was my point to like--the mission is really been to show--built to show the brands that we are a group of, you know, African American bourbon enthusiasts who love premium products and, you know, really want to experience, you know, our native spirit. Right? The fact that bourbon is our national spirit, right for the country, and yet we were kind of excluded from being a part of it, really bothered me. It did. Like, I'm sorry, maybe turning into a therapy session, but I was really ticked.

Fernheimer: I don't see anything to apologize for--(both laugh)--

Davis: Um, but, yeah, it ticked me off. And so, yeah, that's--that's purely the mission. So that was, you know--and cultivating the group and really pushing that message to the group of saying, like, you know, we're educated consumers, we're professionals. High discretionary income like and I get that Black Bourbon Society isn't necessarily for everyone too, right? Because there's--there's folks who don't even res--that doesn't resonate with them. And that's fine, right? But that's the group I wanted to create and the group that I wanted to create to show the brands that we are actually in large numbers and we needed to be recognized. And so, I think, you know, both are doing well. I tend to see myself as this bridge between the two. And so, I work with the community and our groups and, you know, and pushing that message and boosting them and encouraging them to elevate and sophisticate their palates um, while also looking 00:33:00to the brands and say, like, hey, come over here and you need to be like, showcasing your products to this amazing community that is, you know, willing and wants--and eager to learn more and eager to buy.

Fernheimer: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you would think that that would be motivating enough, but--

Davis: Um-hm. And it was like, once I explained it, um, everybody got it. The brands got it. And the brand--I remember um, I explained it to this one sales rep and um--and I was like, I really want you to do some work with us. Like, I want you to come in and speak or do something like some sort of activation or event with us. And she was like, yes, I'd love to. I just--I had no idea. I didn't know African Americans drank bourbon. Um, and it was a very innocent answer, right. Especially coming from Kentucky, you know. Um, but as she, you know, was traveling and in California, I could see. Um, what is the 00:34:00word--a vari--a myriad of what--like uh--a myriad examples of what blackness looks like, right. Um, she was just--she was like, oh, yeah, absolutely, this is great, you know.

Fernheimer: Yeah. So that sounds--it sounds like a lot of those kinds of interactions are what led to some of the interactions between the brands and the group itself.

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: Can you take me back to kind of 2016? And we had talked about some of those early events and they were kind of small and they were sort of like, you know, in Black owned businesses and they were, you know, small tasting events. Tell me how the snowball took off. Like when--when--how did you imagine initially, like, you know, I want to have X number of events a year and I want to be working with these brands. And I'm like, I don't know. Tell me how--how did the brain of Samara Davis work in terms of thinking about what that would look like? And then how did it evolve? Because wow, that was like.

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: -----------(??) right.

Davis: Five years ago. Uh, it was a slow--it was a slow roll in the beginning. Um, and again, we were only focused on the Bay Area um, in the beginning and then uh, so fall 2016, we started off in the Bay Area, we had two or three of our--two events then um, and then by spring 2017 we had our first event in Atlanta. Um, I think somewhere in between there. And then we had another event in Oakland uh, around Derby time and then towards the summer. So, it wasn't until like our year anniversary mark that I actually got the clue, they're like, throw everybody into a Facebook group so that it could be easier to communicate. Um, but it was a slow roll. It was a slow roll. I really did spend those first months--that first year, just networking and getting to know people and--and getting my name out and--and really building like--spreading the 00:36:00purpose and my vision of this group. So, you--so year one was slow um--

Fernheimer: You have the word bourbon evangelist, like--(laughs)--

Davis: Evangelizing. I love that. Yes--(both laugh)--and you have to also remember like this all happened--so my the growth of BBS also parallels with my divorce, like.

Fernheimer: -----------(??) asked but I was waiting for you to kind of connect those dots for me--(laughs)--

Davis: Yeah, there's a lot of dots that are--that go with that, too, because my ex-husband wasn't supportive. My ex-husband didn't want it to survive. He wanted to--he wanted me to leave it alone. He didn't like my bourbon club and didn't see the potential, the growth potential for it. Um but that's--I mean, it was one of like a laundry list of reasons why I um, got divorced. So, but needless to say, it's just a lot, lot of energy--

Fernheimer: Everything else is going like this and the marriage going 00:37:00like this.

Davis: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's what I say, it's like this--like this--and my love for bourbon kept increasing all while my marriage kept failing. Yeah, and I'm fine. I'm so grateful for it. Um, so that was year one. But I really didn't get the explosion in the group until we created the Facebook group.

Fernheimer: Yeah.

Davis: And that's when we started to connect with bourbon drinkers in Chicago and in New York and in Michigan and New Orleans and all over the country. And I started to realize that the group that I was trying to cultivate actually already existed. Like there wasn't that much education that needed to be done with the folks that were joining Black Bourbon Society in those days. There was a lot that I learned from my members, you know, in those early days. And I called them my day ones but, you know, there were African American um, you know, uh bourbon enthusiasts that were already out there that already had 00:38:00massive bourbon collections that had been drinking for ten and fifteen years, but they didn't have a national community. So just like, you know, when I said, like, I'm looking for this group so that like, I can find bourbon drinkers like me, so that I can have community. They were all doing the same thing too, um, and they were all trying to fit in to whatever was already out there. So, when we presented ourselves, they were eager and excited to just join and be a part of BBS, because they're like, finally, there's something here for us. Um, and so our growth went through the roof right away just from a national perspective. Um, and we use that to our advantage to talk to the brands and say, like, hey, now we've got a national audience. Like, now let's talk about possibly doing events in other cities outside of my personal network, outside of my 00:39:00personal comfort zone. Now, we were going this--now we had the opportunity to go to cities that I hadn't even been to and to engage in audiences that I had never met, you know, and do events for that. Uh so that's kind of how it grew, so it grew very--again, organic is the best word to describe how it grew. Um, and just, you know, one piece continue to fall into place, one after the other.

Fernheimer: So, in the early days, was it--how would you describe the kind of membership numbers before the big Facebook push? Hundreds? Fifties?

Davis: Um, I would say we probably had seventy five or--in the Bay Area and probably another fifty to seventy five here in Atlanta. Maybe we were like at 120 or 130 in Oakland. Um, and you have to excuse me. I--I keep changing the cities on you. But the Oakland Bay area is all the same (??) thing in 00:40:00my book.

Fernheimer: Okay. Bay Area is the same.

Davis: That Oakland Bay area, San Francisco, they're all across there--a seven-minute bridge right away from each other. So, it's all the same thing for me uh, for documentation purposes. Um, but

Fernheimer: -----------(??) --(both laugh)--

Davis: But um, so yeah, I think we only have like maybe 100 or 200 folks. But you know, right away when we started the group, I think we got to 1000 to like 2000 members like that. Like instantly because a lot of folks--

Fernheimer: -----------(??)

Davis: Yeah, once folks found about us then they're like, oh yes, like this is for us. And then they invite all their bourbon drinker friends and then their bourbon drinker friends and then their bourbon drinker friends. And so, it started to grow very quickly.

Fernheimer: Yeah. And so when did you begin to start thinking about, um, I guess--hang on, before we move there. 2016 was a big year in the United States in terms of the political climate um, and the ramp up to the election 00:41:00of Trump. And I wonder how that figures into sort of the growth or the need for community in the African American community. I know it's not a monolithic community, so forgive my use of the definitive article, the--

Davis: Right.

Fernheimer: But--but I think you know what I'm getting at that, you know, what was the impact there? Do you think there was an impact?

Davis: Um, so politically no, um, I won't say--I won't say that. I will say that, you know, in BBS, we--we steer away from politics as much as we possibly can. Um just because like, nobody wants to talk about politics when they just really want to drink after work, you know, um, something that was going on in 2016 that really was on my mind and a lot of our member's mind that was um, I think one of the sum--that was--it was a deadly summer for 00:42:00African-American males. Um, you had, what was it, Mike Brown, that summer? Um, you know, the year started to overlap, which is really unfortunate, right. But you have -----------(??) Philando Castile was another um--

Fernheimer: Eric Garner was a--

Davis: Yeah, Garner, like it was one after the other. One was filmed live on Facebook. Um, and so that summer and into that fall of creating Black Bourbon Society, uh, that was--that totally weighed on me, especially as a mother with a three-year-old black son um, at the time. And I was scared to death for him, for my son. Um, and so, if anything, I think those are the things that our community was dealing with and looking for escapes um, and opportunities to not 00:43:00have to wear a mask, pretend like everything's okay. Like, you know what was going on. Uh, and you know, even that-- like, that summer, I remember as I was building Black Bourbon Society, um, I was in therapy. I was at therapy during that time period because I was just like--like trying to figure out how do I be a great mom? How do I, you know, have a business that's sustainable? How do I protect my son? Um, how do how do I carry on, right, with my everyday life? While all of this stuff is happening in our world? Um, and the sad thing is that nothing has changed in five years, you know? Um, but I think we've just found better ways to cope. And I feel like especially when we then, you know, go fast forward to 2020 when you're now dealing with Breonna Taylor and 00:44:00Ahmaud Arbery and George Floyd, a whole new set of names, right? Same--same--same innocence, same--same circumstances, essentially. Um, I think BBS became again, another safe haven, another place for our community to just get away from all of the noise. You know, politically, whatever else is going on like, when you come in the BBS, we just want to prop our feet up and have a dram and maybe just laugh, you know? Um, so we did become a safe haven for that, especially during the pandemic, too. Uh, but you always had that extra added layer on top.

Fernheimer: Yeah. I want to get to the pandemic in a little bit, too, but I didn't feel like it was right to kind of ask about this time period but not acknowledge all the contextual that was happening--

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: --at that time. And how important--impactful they 00:45:00are--not just for the black community, for all of us, but to recognize that they impact different communities differently?

Davis: Absolutely. So Trump, um, Trump is Trump and African-Americans knew that from day one--(both laugh)--you know, I mean--

Fernheimer: -----------(??)---------- not all of them, but many--

Davis: you know, like, yeah, it's again, not speaking monolithically, but, you know, for the most part, our group was just like, okay, we're here for the ride. Let's just--let's just enjoy our moments while we have them, you know? Uh, but, you know, I--we--we don't go into politics in BBS, we don't. And, you know, when we've had some folks that will try and bring up politics um, and it never ends well, we always end up having to cut those conversation short in BBS.

Fernheimer: Well, with over a thousand members, it's pretty hard to assume that everyone shares exactly the same kinds of ideas about all kinds of 00:46:00things, but--

Davis: --yeah, absolutely--

Fernheimer: But I guess the question I was really trying to ask was about that need for community. And given everything else that was going on and you--you addressed that--

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: --um, in terms of thinking about things. So--so as things started to grow, um, how did they begin to change as they sort of, you know, this is before the pandemic from roughly 2017, 2018. You're on Facebook now, you've got this national audience and you begin to imagine BBS and enact BBS as a kind of national organization with national impact. Talk to me about that, how did that impact the kinds of events that you did or the way that you interacted with your members or the kinds of things that became possible for you?

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: Um, you alluded to a little bit about that with some of the brand events. And I assume you mean like brand ambassadors coming to speak to the group.

Davis: Right, -----------(??)

Fernheimer: -----------(??) I'm not sure how that worked.

Davis: Well also, it's like, well, we had that, but then we also--so--so two things. Um, as our group continued to grow, the more possibility I saw in the group, right. And I saw like, okay, like we have influence. We can make a larger impact here. Um, we can make, you know, like fulfilling the mission is going to actually happen. Um, and so I--I embrace that. You know, by this time I had my my partner, I had Armond with me um, in my life. And he, of course, Armond is a huge--he's a big dreamer. Sometimes he dreams so big, it scares me. Um, but he saw also this--this great opportunity to really make an impact. Um, and so with his encouragement, we were--we were thinking bigger. We were thinking bolder. We were thinking how can we uh, create larger impact with that. Uh, I 00:48:00have to say, at this time, one of our--our--our biggest supporter was Maker's Mark, honestly. And that was, you know, again, a door led to a door led to another door. You know, all these doors kept opening. And we had the opportunity to--um, to build this connection with Maker's Mark and um, do a barrel pick with them. And that was something that we did at 2017 (??) Tales. So that summer, just as we were starting to really grow, we were able to um, ask a really bold question like, hey, why don't we do a barrel pick? You know, it wouldn't have been until the following year--the following summer in '18 that we actually picked that barrel. Um, but we felt confident that we could sell out an entire barrel with all of our members who were in Atlanta and scattered across the country. And we did. We actually pre-sold that barrel before it was even bottled and ready to be shipped here to Atlanta. Um, and so that was kind of 00:49:00like a big impact moment for us. And I think, again, as we're doing this, uh, other brands were taking note of the work that we were doing, and they were taking note of the events that we were creating. They were--I also threw them in a group, but anybody I met in the industry, I would also add them to Black Bourbon Society. So, they had a preview as to what our community was doing. So they knew how the conversations were being had. They knew the--our rules, right for respect and for decorum. Um, they knew our rules around like proper topics toto have, you know, so they could see this audience growing and communicating in a civilized way, unlike some of those other groups. Um, and I think that even led to like, okay, this is a more impressive group. This is definitely a sophisticated group. How can we work with this type of an audience? So they start to get a chance to see how our audience works. Um, even if 00:50:00you're from middle of nowhere Kentucky, you have this snapshot window view of how the African community, African American community communicates with each other through our through our Facebook group. And so, all of that, I think, was really powerful in helping us to grow and get the funding to do more events across the country.

Fernheimer: How did you set up and create that ethos? Cause I think you're so right. I mean, I am a member on that Facebook group, and I don't talk much. I lurk and I listen and I learn a lot. But I think probably one of the most impressive things, and especially as a woman, right, to kind of shut down some of the (??) baloney-honey that you get from some male who's trying to outperform knowledge or--or some kind of, you know what I'm talking about--

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: --there's that ego move that often happens in an online space, particularly usually around aficionados. But how do you--and you do 00:51:00it very well and successfully, I think in a way that's fun for the group, you laugh and there's a lot of um, playfulness to it. So how did you--how did you go about informing and constructing the rules for decorum? Maybe, how do you define decorum? Let's start there--(both laugh)--

Davis: Well, I think I think it was through observation, right? It was--it was--goes back to my original search for what I--what I--when I was looking for a bourbon community to join. And I just went through and looked, they're like all the things I absolutely hated about these other groups and said, not in my--not in my group--

Fernheimer: -----------(??)

Davis: --you know. So we set up parameters and Facebook had--has capabilities that make you say like you agreed to our rules, which is, you know, there's no weapons, there's no crotch shots. There's no--there's no--there's no flexing. There's no egos in bourbon, you know, like cut all that stuff out. 00:52:00And if you agree to that, then you can become a member of BBS. If you agreed to us being a member--membership based on advocacy for diversity and inclusion, we welcome you here. You know, um, so it was really just setting some clear boundaries from the beginning. And then every once in a while, you know, we've had some folks that didn't necessarily read the rules and come in and, you know, you have to have that conversation and on the back end. But we did. And it was um, it was just me standing up for what I wanted out of the community and making the community respect that. And ultimately what I found is that I wasn't the only one that didn't like those other things from those other groups. And so especially the women in the group were back then we were more like 50/50, right? So the women felt very safe communicating and asking questions in that group. Now we're more like 60/40, but women didn't want to--to see men in their underwear with a bottle of bourbon. You know what I mean, like--

Fernheimer: --creepy!

Davis: --super creepy, super thirst trap-ish, you know, like, nobody wanted that. Um, and so, yeah, we--we're just we're built differently. And I and I'm like, they call me mother in my group because they know, like, I don't play. I am quick to come in and cut something off or, you know, delete it and let people go.

Fernheimer: So how many like, how many people are employed by BBS now? So you're--are you the sole administrator of the group? I mean, now you got--I haven't looked recently, what was it, 20,000? There's probably more.

Davis: Yeah, it's like 25 now. Um, we--

Fernheimer: --it's a full-time job--(laughs)--

Davis: It is a full-time job and it's always--it's always been a full-time job for me. I think in the beginning, I think in 2016 I was still consulting with um, some nonprofit work, I was still consulting with museums and 00:54:00doing galas. So, I was kind of teetering the line. But by that second-year um, I was full time with that group in society and I've always been um, full-time. I um--

Fernheimer: --do have other administrators or other employees who help monitor that online space.

Davis: Yeah, so I do have some folks that do monitor that. I have some ambassadors that help to monitor the space um, with me, um, but I'm the only full-time employee and um, I just work with a ton of contractors.

Fernheimer: And how did you begin to kind of imagine that ambassador structure? Tell me about that.

Davis: Um, kicking and screaming. I didn't want to do it--(laughs)--um, but it came out of necessity because at one point, you know, when you're first opening your business, like you do everything yourself. So I was the administrator, the marketing, the PR, the writer, the web master, the, you know, the 00:55:00negotiator, the proposal writer, um, and then the event planner who executed all the things. Like I did everything myself in the beginning. But then over time, I started to outsource stuff um, and, yeah. Now--now we've got a whole team. So we've got ambassadors that are essentially like our members that want to have a more distinct role, like they wanted to have more uh, more input and more engagement with us, with Black Bourbon Society. Um, and so the ambassadors are mainly used to create in-person events when we don't have activations in other cities. Uh, so they are more structured to kind of keep the community gather in-person so that we don't have to live in a digital space all the time. Uh, so that was their purpose, really uh--

Fernheimer: So, kind of local boots on the ground where you don't live?

Davis: Local boots on the ground, just kind of keeping folks together. They might meet up for a little happy hour just to kinda, you know, have some one-on-one face time instead of always being stuck on the computer. Um, so that's what their main role was. And then we also had them, you know, kind of working to ma--maintain and monitor the group, make sure that chaos doesn't break out or ensue uh, throughout the posts.

Fernheimer: But these are strictly volunteer roles?

Davis: Yeah, so those are--the ambassadors are volunteer roles. Yes. So I do have--there's a whole structure now. Um, and I just again, my friends just started stepping up. They just started seeing how big this was getting um, and they wanted to help in any way that they could. So one of my childhood friends is in organizational management. Um, he's got like the whole Six Sigma, like Black Belt and all this other stuff. So he wanted to come in and do a deep dive on Black Bourbon Society and kind of bring together some 00:57:00organizational structure. So we started looking at all of the roles and possibilities that it could break out into um, and developed a full org chart. So now I do--I have a whole team right, like the whole org chart of folks that make Black Bourbon Society what it is today. And that includes, you know, even like our finances, our PR marketing, our social media marketing, you know, our VP of programs, VP of partnerships, VP of campaigns. Um, and so there's a whole-- and there's Armond that like just make sure the trains run on time, you know, um , and he kind of acts as--Armond acts as my COO. So now we have a whole staff underneath us, but everybody's contract, so uh, we pass out, you know, our monthly stipends and--and that's it. There's no other employees.

Fernheimer: Um-hm. And um, what other kind of business models or 00:58:00texts or things like that that you look at as you were thinking about how you were going to structure your own organization?

Davis: Um, I didn't, and I trusted my friend. I'm always about like, I know what I know and what I don't know, I'm either going to find a way to teach myself or work with somebody who does know it and that that as a leader of any company, you have to know what you're good at and you have to own what you are not good at. And so um, I trusted my friend um, who came in and said, like, look, I just want to give some structure to this, like this is--and he volunteered to do it. He was starting his own business and we were his client, his first client. And so he is the one that helped to, you know, really like--weeks--took weeks to really kind of come up with what our organizational structure could be and um, I trusted him for that. And we've made a few little tweaks, but it's 00:59:00a solid structure that works for us.

Fernheimer: And how, so, in terms of that, how many ambassadors do you have now?

Davis: Um, we are in transition, so uh, we currently have 45 ambassadors.

Fernheimer: Wow.

Davis: Across the country.

Fernheimer: So every state?

Davis: Almost--no--well, there's like multiple and few cities. So we've got like five with--at one point we have five here in Atlanta, we have four in D.C. I think we got three in um, Chicago, another four in the Tri State area. And we've got--we have four in L.A., two in the Bay Area. So we're all over the place. Um, however, I'm actually going to kind of reduce that down a little bit. Uh, just because the uh--even though we have capabilities like technology and 01:00:00Zoom and Facebook and all of that, it's still very hard to maintain consistency when it comes to like branding and making sure that your brand is uh, represented in its best light. So um, it's getting a little too big for what I want--I feel comfortable with it. Uh, so I want to get a little bit smaller with that and making sure that we are providing quality experiences that really live up to the Black Bourbon Society. And when you are thinking about your brand, what are the kind of key things that you want people to understand about it or to associate with the brand?

Davis: Um, so that is a really good question. I am very protective of my brand and its reputation um, and that is again, that kind of goes back to 01:01:00how we're represented on Facebook, how we're represented in media. So that is--is really where I draw huge big boundaries around. And it's--it's everything your brand and your reputation is all that you have. Um, and so I--I look at our brand as you know, we are the premier African American or Black Bourbon Society um, in the country. We are the first, of course. Um, but we are also the largest. Um, and we have the capabilities to--we have the data on our growth rate. So that's important for as a business, we have exponential data on what our audience loves and likes and doesn't like and does. But then also, it's really creating quality events, right. So when we work with the brands, the brands trust that we are responsible with getting their personal 01:02:00messages out um, and executing that in a way that really resonates with our audience um, in a positive light, you know. So um, and I take that extremely seriously.

Fernheimer: And so when the ambassadors are working with you, I'm just--I'm sorry I'm hammering on this. I'm just trying to understand better the--how they work. So they're mostly volunteers. Do they self-nominate? Do you approve them? Like how does that work?

Davis: Yeah, yeah we do, so they have to apply.

FerNheimer: Okay.

Davis: Uh, we have to do interviews and then, you know, we can determine, you know, based on their involvement in their engagement within our society--our Facebook society. Or if one of us have met them in person, we will, you know, decide if they could join the team or not.

Fernheimer: Okay, and then once they're kind of in, then they're emboldened or empowered to represent--

Davis: --yeah--

Fernheimer: --the brand through. And do they like generate ideas for 01:03:00events or do they kind of execute events that you've generated the ideas for?

Davis: So both, so both. You know, in its current structure, they were--they were even working with local sales reps and local brand reps to produce like little smaller engagements with tastings and, you know, happy hours at the farm or educational experiences. Like, for instance, my--my DC crew, my DMV crew. There's a ton of distilleries that are popping up in that area. And so they will, you know, organize a distillery tour for the local members or they'll work with--they'll do a cocktail course uh with some of the bartenders in the area. Sometimes it's just as simple as like a bottle exchange or, you know, let's meet up and just let's just share a bottle or share a dram or two. So it just depends, again, it's more about really developing that community um, 01:04:00than anything. But um, as we switch more into an agency model, you know, we've got to reshape what the ambassador program looks like um, because ultimately, we end up competing against ourselves in a way--

Fernheimer: Tell me about that.

Davis: That's always a challenge. It's like, you know, I think if the brands found--find a way to work with our audience and get in front of our audience without having to pay for it, they would.

Fernheimer: Absolutely.

Davis: And so what--but what we've realized in year four and five and having a membership as large as ours uh, that we have value--that we are a valuable resource to the brands. We are valuable, not only do we have loyal--loyalty from our members um, and this deep connection with them in helping to, you know--this influence, if I--what I had to notice in the last year or two is if I 01:05:00buy a bottle and I say, you know, I don't really like this, our members will say, you know what, I don't like it either. Samara doesn't like it, I don't like it. I'm not going to drink it. That does a negative impact in the industry, right? If I say, oh, my god, I love this bottle, like it is my favorite bourbon. For the next two weeks in the group, everyone is hunting to go buy that bottle and have it part of their collection because Samara loves it. So when you have that sort of influence, right, like there's a value that comes along with it.

Fernheimer: Um-hm.

Davis: Um, and I think sometimes the brands will try to get a piece of that--that connection without having to, like, invest in the community that they are trying to get in front of. Um, and so we started to kind of notice that happening through the ambassador program. Like there were specific 01:06:00brands that--that didn't want to work with us in a professional, contractual way. But we're trying to find ways to connect with our members without having to connect with us as an organization, if that makes any sense.

Fernheimer: Is that--so, this leads me into a question I had about how Diversity Distilled kind of came about and is that--tell me about that evolution um, when--'cause that came about in what, 2020? Kind of right as the pandemic hit--

Davis: --yeah.

Fernheimer: --or a little bit before, I don't know. Tell me about that and its relationship to Black Bourbon Society and kind of where it emerged from. And I'm asking not a great question here, but I'm trying really hard.

Davis: So, you know, Diversity Distilled came up out of several conversations that we were having with the brands because we were working with the brands, but we were also working um, with them on a very low level. We were working within local groups like local--local--with the local sales teams or local 01:07:00ambassador teams with brands. We weren't at that point really doing a lot of national campaigns, um and that's because um, they're--like, we were having a hard time working up the ranks and finding these connections, right. There wasn't anyone in the ranks that honestly saw the value in necessarily working with a Black organization to do that. That--that would--that will come later in 2020, right? But yeah, in '19 and--in 2019 and in early 2020, like the brands were okay with like throwing a few nuggets to diverse audiences, but they really didn't see the value in investing in diverse audiences.

Fernheimer: We'll do happy hour with you here.

Davis: Yeah, or I will do this, oh, we've got a couple of thousand we'll throw your way, we'll do this. But they really weren't like full throttle into having diversity and inclusion in their--in their marketing aspects. Or if 01:08:00they did, they had--well, no, they still didn't. But their way around that was saying, well, we've got our general market, but then we also have something called multicultural that handles all of those affairs for us. Well, multicultural gets like, let's say, anywhere between 20 and 40% of the budget, right. Whereas the other large majority goes towards general marketing. And you can take what general marketing principles to mean, right. Um, but some of the brands, what it means is, like multicultural, is not only African American consumers, but it's also Latino. It's also Asian, it's also LGBT. It's also--it's everybody else that isn't general market.

Fernheimer: And general market is--just so I'm making sure I'm understanding you--it's white, it's male, it's middle age.

Davis: Yeah, and essentially, I mean, that's an assumption on my 01:09:00part, right? But if everybody else is stuck in a multicultural market, I can't think of who else is left other than, you know--because also--'cause women is also included in multicultural, right.

Fernheimer: That was my next question is, where does women fit in this bizarre binary?

Davis: Yeah, so women would go in that, women would go in that. Because again, I mean, you've--you have brands that were kind of going this way, but it's okay, because I think it's important to say that you have brands that didn't even know--that had--still struggle with gaining female consumers.

Fernheimer: Um-hm.

Davis: Or think that you have to market your product a different way to female consumers than you would general market. So, you know, not--not--African Americans aren't the only one who get offended in the marketing tactics industry. But, you know, even with women, it's like, you know, the pink packaging or the pink whiskey or, you know, um, I don't know.

Fernheimer: It's flavored.

Davis: Huh?

Fernheimer: It's flavored, right?

Davis: It's sweet, it's cherry, it's low proof. You know, like all these miscellaneous stereotypes, they absolutely have no credibility behind them. But it's just all assumptions that they think women, consumers like that's different from the general market. So I just wanted to find that, right? Like, look, there's these two worlds that existed. So Diversity Distilled came in and was--and basically said like, no, this cannot happen. And the reason why this is happening is because there's no diversity in your boardroom. So it looks at the organizations from um, a corporate standpoint, yes, you can have diversity, right? So you can have um, all of your African-American and Latino and Asian workers--staff working in the multicultural department, right. But 01:11:00there's no absolutely no upward mobility. There's just one little bucket that deals with specifically--with small accounts. They get paid very little compared to everybody else in the organization. Um, and so, like, you can be diverse on paper and say, yes, we have a diverse workforce, but is it inclusive because there's no inclusion of that diversity in the boardrooms where it matters. And so that's what Diversity Distilled looks at. It looks like recruitment, um, retention and promotion of diverse talent within the spirits industry, with the intention and with the hopes that by recruiting and promoting these diverse talent within your workforce, that an organization like mine won't have to exist to force you to market to consumers of color. If there's, you know, diversity in the marketing table at the advertising agency where you're working, then some of these offensive campaigns that pop up won't actually get approved 01:12:00because you've got a diverse voice in the room that says that's not going to fly in this community.

Fernheimer: So the timing is really interesting--

Davis: --yes.

Fernheimer: --of diversity distilled and also kind of the growth of BBS. So we haven't--the pandemic has kind of been the white elephant in the room that we've alluded to and not really--

Davis: --the looming pandemic--(laughs)--

Fernheimer: --the looming pandemic. So talk to me a little bit about, how the pandemic impacted your model? Because it sounds like BBS, at least initially. There is a significant online component to kind of um, bridge these very different disparate national communities, of Black and African American consumers--I'm gonna use them both.

Davis: Right.

Fernheimer: And others who support diversity in the industry. Um, but 01:13:00at the same time, it's a big and important focus on these in-person events and getting to know and participate and feel part of this diverse community. I think as a minority community, right, it's really important to see people like yourself and to interact in, you know, a safe space, right. I think any minority has that need and there are different times where it goes up and down, right. But the pandemic changes everything in some ways. Um, so tell me about that.

Davis: So um, the pandemic hits, and I remember I was um, I was at the distillery, I was at Jim Beam's Distillery in February doing a Black History Month program.

Fernheimer: -----------(??)----------

Davis: Huh?

Fernheimer: Out in Claremont? Claremont, right?

Davis: Claremont, right. Out in Claremont. Um, and it was all about where is the Black history in bourbon history. That was the panel that we led. And we had Dr. Erin Gilliam from KSU. We had Michael Veach.

Fernheimer: -----------(??)

Davis: Yes. Um, she's totally amazing. We had Michael Veach, of course, historian, one of the three bourbon wise men in my book. And then um, we had oh, my goodness, I'm forgetting her name. She's a city councilwoman from Bardstown.

Fernheimer: Oh, I know who you're talking about. I'm blanking on her name also.

Davis: Yes. Oh God. Kecia--Kecia Copeland.

Fernheimer: Yes.

Davis: Kecia Copeland. Oh, I'm sorry, Kecia. I forgot.

Fernheimer: We both apologize.

Davis: But I saw Kecia Copeland was there, and they were--I said on my panel, we ask all these questions, but we knew it was looming, right? It was in the news by February.

Fernheimer: So this is February 2020?

Davis: This was February 2020. Last week of February. It was literally like the last day of Black History Month. So um--and the last question that I asked was, okay, the pandemic, its hit. It finally comes ashore and it's going 01:15:00to hit. What is the one bourbon that you have with you? Um, and everyone has their answers and all of that. But then at the same time, I got like emails two weeks later saying, like, you curse us all because now the pandemic, it's here and I don't have my whiskey that wanted--(both laugh)--that I said I want during that session. So, sorry, but it was coming

Fernheimer: -----------(??)----------

Davis: Um, yes, but anyways, uh, so the pandemic hits everyone's in the shut down and we're all in our houses. Um, and surprisingly, you know, we had to put Diversity Distilled to the side um, because we had events. We were planning a trip to go to Louisville like two weeks after the shutdown had happened. So we already had like stuff lined up for 2020 and our whole entire calendar just got crumbled um, with the pandemic. Uh, but one thing I noticed is that 01:16:00our membership started to go out of control. So, you know, there were folks that became plant parents and adopted pets and learned how to make bread. But then there's also this community that just was like, okay, I'm going the whiskey route. Like if I've gotta be stuck in the house, there must be whiskey. Our numbers that year quadrupled.

Fernheimer: Wow.

Davis: We--we quadrupled -----------(??)

Fernheimer: -----------(??) four or five thousand and is that when the big--

Davis: Yeah, it went from five thousand to twenty-five thousand. Like, it literally just went nuts. Um, so yeah, so we--what we ended up doing was just throwing like, how do we save BBS? How do we save this business in the middle of a pandemic, right. Um, and we started doing a ton of virtual 01:17:00programing to keep our members engaged. And so we did mixology Mondays, tastemaker Tuesdays, whiskey Wednesdays. I think we took Thursdays off--teach--no we had teachable tidbits, and then we had BYOB Friday--happy hours on Fridays. Like we did just as much Zoom and virtual stuff as we possibly could just to kind of keep this community alive and together, you know? Fernheimer: How do you think, in terms of like, the overall literacy of the group at that time, those kinds of regular events? I mean, there's so many questions I want to ask because, you know, the need for community, of course, increases as everyone's in lockdown.

Davis: Right.

Fernheimer: People are really looking for ways to connect. So how did you, like how consciously, I guess, did you think about using those kinds of 01:18:00regular events to strategically work with your group and your audience to increase their overall knowledge, education, um, I use the word literacy, but you can use a different word.

Davis: Yeah, literacy is perfect. So I just wanted to catch everybody up to speed, number one. So we just started going back to basics and doing some basic bourbon education. But honestly, we just wanted to be a safe haven, because again, the media is going crazy. You know, people are losing loved ones, family members, people are getting sick. Uh, we lost several members, at least a dozen um, that I am personally aware of um, in BBS. And so, like, it was just kind of chaos. And so what we just needed to do was just be a safe space. Again, kind of going back to that whole thing about like not talking about politics. It was just like, let's just provide a place where folks don't have to talk 01:19:00about what is on the news. Um. we did--we do talk about--we did talk about some of that stuff during our happy hours. And it was a lot of bonding moments with that, you know, but we wanted to keep it light. We wanted to keep it informative. We wanted to give people that escape, you know, from everything that is going on in the world because that, we couldn't control, but we could control the messaging that was happening in our group. We could control the, you know, check in today. How are you doing? How are you feeling? Like uplift your spirits, you know, let's have a dram. You know, we can control that. We can find a way to bring in some humor. But um, everything else, we just--and education along with it. But we really we shut out everything else. And the members love that. The members still say about how that time, especially people who lived alone, how that--how that time in BBS during the shutdown literally 01:20:00saved their life. You know, they get--they got family and they got friends um, that they didn't even know they needed during that time period to help them get through.

Fernheimer: Yeah.

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: How did, you know, what were you looking at to inspire the way that you thought about that? You know, um, shoot, I'm gonna to take (??) something Tuesdays--I--uh--you went through them really fast and I didn't write them all down. But, you know, that's like--let's take the first one, back to bourbon basics.

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: So what inspired you to kind of create that as a sort of content lesson and what texts did you look at to--as you were putting some of that together and um, how did that work for your members?

Davis: Um, so I always go back to my Moonshine University, my executive bourbon steward textbook, you know, just going from there, just, you know, the basics, you know, um, and just, you know, we would invite massive distillers to come on and they would talk about their process. Um, and so what better way 01:21:00to learn, you know, from a master distiller himself? Uh, what way to better learn about how to taste whiskey from a tasting expert, you know? So uh, we started doing more virtual programing that allowed the experts to come on and really, again, engage with that community. And then, of course, our community was like, wow, we've never gotten a chance to see a master distiller, ask a master distiller one on one questions. So that was basically our way of, you know, providing that back to basics. It used to be me, um, but then bringing in other folks to also lead that was important too.

Fernheimer: And when you bring other folks in--I noticed you used master distiller and you talk about him. And at least in the last few years, we've started to have her too, right?

Davis: Yes. Um-hm.

Fernheimer: Um, how important to you is it that when you're bringing folks in from the industry to interact with your audience um, that you tried to include--to--to represent and--and show diversity? Some might say 01:22:00what little of it there is -----------(??)

Davis: Well, there's not much.

Fernheimer: -----------(??) industry.

Davis: You know, um, but for us it was just again, I'm--I'm kind of big on labels. I'm--I'm big on, you know, folks like knowing what they're buying. Uh, so I want you to speak with the folks over at Wild Turkey. I want you to speak with the folks at uh, Four Roses. I want you to know, you know, who's running the program over at Widow Jane. And, you know, so it's just--it's the more access, the more connection that we can bring, the better, you know. So it--it really wasn't about finding diversity. I felt like we were the diversity. Um, and so it was just, again, the connection between the brands like, look at us. Look how engaged we are. Look how--and like curious we are, like I 01:23:00wanted them to really recognize the value of our group, so.

Fernheimer: When you talk to your membership about labels, what is an important--like bottle labels. Sorry, right. We're not labeling people here. Um, what's important for you to communicate to them that they need to know to be what you're considering an informed consumer um, and to not be swindled by, you know, that whatever marketing story is being sold because they're great marketing stories.

Davis: Lovely stories out there. But where's where does your juice come from? Like, where is it distilled? Is it actually Kentucky or does it come from MGP? Does it come from some other source? Aging is a really big one, especially when it comes to pricing. Um, you know, I think the bourbon market is starting to become very overpriced. And, you know, a lot of folks have this, you 01:24:00know, whiskey that's less than four years old and it's going for $100. And it's like, no, it shouldn't cost that much--(laughs)--you know, so it's um--it's recognizing like, okay, this is old--don't be caught up on the price tag, don't get caught up on the pretty label, like if this is only a two-year product, it's, you know, this amount of percentage of corn. It's, uh, you know, it might--there's--there's bourbon, that is, um, what do they call it? Technologically aged. I forgot this new word that they have, essentially, it's microwaved. But whatever, it's not good. But, you know, know what you're buying, know what you're getting. There's bourbons that you know, have been seasoned with cognac cask and sherry cask and, you know, what flavor does it impart? So just informing the consumer so that they can kinda gather a sense of, what is this flavor profile going to be? Does it really match what I like as 01:25:00a consumer? Uh, some, you know, some bourbon drinkers only want 80 proofs, some folks want everything over 100, you know? You know, it just depends. But whatever it is, all the information you need to know about a bottle is on the label. So you don't have to walk into a store and just say, I want a bourbon. Do you have any, Pappy? Well, why? Do you even know why you're looking for Pappy, like what makes that more special than Elijah Craig? You know, so um, just having that awareness and being informed makes you a better consumer, you know.

Fernheimer: How do you um, instruct people to begin to craft their palate? I know that you talked a lot about, in our last interview, kind of how you had the experience from being California. Going out to Napa, kind of having a knack for it. Not everyone has that knack, right?

Davis: Right.

Fernheimer: Um, but and, you know, how did you shift that knack from 01:26:00wine to whiskey?

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: And how do you--how do you teach other people to kind of cultivate or activate that part of their palate too? Because in order to be able to know that you're the kind of person who likes them, 80 or 100 proof or these notes or that you have to have some kind of basic level of understanding of yourself and sort of where it fits within the broader spectrum, I'm like stumbling on my words. I don't know why.

Davis: So this is where whiskey is super geeky and it's fascinating, right? This is a social experience of--of whiskey -----------(??) for that, right? It's all in your brain. This is a--this is a--as--a brain exercise. And that's why I love whiskey, um, one of the reasons. But when it comes to developing your palate, it's really developing your imagination. And it's--it's really relying on your olfactory senses and allowing your brain to go there. A lot of 01:27:00folks get so stuck or they don't want to give the wrong answers, so they don't say anything. They're like, oh, okay, it smells like vanilla, caramel and oak. Okay, great. We've got the basics, right. That's what you expect it to be. But now let's really get a chance to let your brain explore and taste this whiskey. So, what are you picking up on the nose? Is it a candy bar? Is it, you know, peanuts? It's you know, it's like when I have Elijah Craig, um--not Elijah Craig--when I have Evan Williams Bottled in Bond, I immediately start singing, Take Me Out to the Ball Game because it smells like a box of Cracker Jacks for me, right? Like it's just this whole thing of my father and me going to a Dodger game when I was a kid. And I, for some reason, I can pick up that memory through nosing Evan Williams Bottled in Bond. So as an artist, right, or as 01:28:00an art historian, like it was very easy for me to do that and to just let my mind go free and let those memories flood in as I'm tasting a whiskey. Um, now, there are some chemical power compounds that actually line up along with that, right? So some of it--but it's all intuitive and it's all just like naturally happening that you're able to pick up those chemical compounds that are actually in the whiskey. So it's--I--when I am teaching people to taste whiskey, it's really letting go of that like, left brain analytical thinking and to just be free flow, free spirit with it. And I love this--when I do tastings with lawyers, they're the best group to do this with because their brain is just like, you could see the gears, like trying to figure this out or whatever. And it's just like, stop being a lawyer, just drink it and just sip it 01:29:00and allow yourself to let go. And you can see like the shift, you can see it in their eyes, like this--like this, oh, okay, let me let me go to another place here. So, yeah, that's the best way to develop your palate. A, you got to drink, right, responsibly, but B, um, allow yourself to go with a journey. And you'll start to pick that up, you'll start to pick up different nuances. Another way to do that is to do side by sides, right. So you'll like--because you'll think, oh, all brown liquor tastes the same, I don't drink brown liquor. I've had people say that. Well, no, they don't all taste the same, right. So let's do a comparison. Let's have a sip of this. What are you getting? Even if they don't know how to articulate it, the moment you give them a sip of something else, they're just like, oh, I like this one better, or I like that one better, oh, this one's much more darker and heavier notes, that one's more 01:30:00oaky. Like they can be able to compare and contrast um, and that also helps to develop your palate too.

Fernheimer: What texts--excuse me--what texts or things do you suggest people read to help develop their imaginative vocabulary for description notes?

Davis: --(laughs)--there is no text. It's use your--use your imagination. It comes from up here, you know, it comes from that ether. There's no text for that, you know.

Fernheimer: So you don't do wheels and things like that?

Davis: So yeah, we do do wheels. Like we'll do a little color wheel or a little flavor wheel, you know, to help folks kind of break that down like versus sweet, versus savory, versus floral, versus woodsy, you know, whatever um, medicinal, it's a car--category. So you can teach your brain that way to, right. Like you can teach yourself the categories. Tracie Franklin, who should be a 01:31:00part of this--

Fernheimer: Yes, I--we--we connected a little bit--we'll talk about this after we stop recording, 'cause I need to reach back out to her. She's with -----------(??) Nearest still, right?

Davis: She's with the Nearest and Jack initiative.

Fernheimer: Okay.

Davis: Yes, different, but yeah. So we're on like--just edit this out. But yes. So, um, so Tracie Franklin, um, you know, when I do some events with her when she was at--with Glendfiddich a couple of years ago, pre-pandemic life, right this B.C, and A.D, I feel like we're doing this all over again, so pre-pandemic--

Fernheimer: Before times--(both laugh)--

Davis: Uh, B.P., before pandemic. And I guess we're during pandemic, D.P. and maybe we'll get to A.P., who knows?

Fernheimer: I'm willing--God willing.

Davis: God willing. Uh, so before pandemic, Tracie Franklin and I did a series with Glenfiddich, and we--it was a whole lovely affair, but she led the tasting portion of our programing that we did together. We did two events in--one in Philadelphia, one in D.C. And um, she--the way she describes tasting is--is the perfect way for a new beginner, um, and that is to kind of like envision a filing cabinet in your brain. And literally as you're tasting, you can open up the sweet filing cabinet and kind of go through your brain to say, okay, I'm getting this, we know, but what is that sweet note? Is that vanilla? Is that is that like cinnamon roll? Is that creme brulee? Is that--is that cotton candy? Is that, you know, sweet raspberries, Is it stone fruit, is it a fruit? And then you can kind of go and I'll say, okay, I'm only looking for woodsy notes. So then your brain opens up the wood category. Is that oak? Is that 01:33:00cedar? Is that pine? Is that eucalyptus? Are there any herbal notes in here? Is that mint or is that rosemary? And so, like, your brain knows what those flavors taste like, right? Like your brain has a registry for each one of those things. So as you're sipping, your brain is going to start searching for that note while you're drinking that whiskey. And if you find it, yes, that's in here, you may not find it, but I know there's no rosemary here. No, there's no thyme. No, there's whatever. And then you kinda keep going through the filing cabinet until you can identify as many notes as possible. Um, that's another great way to do it. And that--that's also very helpful in the beginning. Now, you know, you just kind of--your Rolodex just spins and pulls it all up at the same time. But um, yeah.

Fernheimer: I like that visual metaphor. It's very um, it's spatial.

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: So a couple of things that we sort of haven't talked that much about. I kind of want to hear a little bit more about Diversity Distilled and sort of the shift to some of those national initiatives like the Black Manhattan Project and things like that. Um, but in terms of, you know, the distinction between the work of the Black Bourbon Society and Diversity Distilled, how would you describe that in a sentence or two?

Davis: Ask that question one more time.

Fernheimer: How would you describe the, the distinct work of each entity in like a couple of sentences so you know, the mission brief like Bourbon Society, the mission and goals and brief of Diversity Distilled.

Davis: So the key difference is, you know, Black Bourbon Society works with the brands to build a connection with diverse audiences. Uh, Diversity Distilled works with the brands to develop a diverse workforce. That's the 01:35:00difference right there. It's like there needs to be D&I on both sides of the spectrum. When it comes to marketing and advertising to diverse audiences and cultivating your consumer base, a diverse consumer base, communicating with a diverse consumer base. But Diversity Distilled is saying, you're having a hard time reaching this audience because you're not diverse yourself. So we really need to look at, how do we make diversity and inclusion a part of your corporate structure, right? Your corporate mission. How do you develop a core--a diverse culture? Right. Because if you were diverse there, you wouldn't have issues being diverse with your consumers.

Fernheimer: And how does Diversity Distilled do that work or imagine itself to do that work? Uh, it's a consulting agency, right? So you're obviously charging services to help provide consulting. So I hope you forgive me asking 01:36:00these questions because I'm trying not to have you give away your paid secrets.

Davis: No, it's fine.

Fernheimer: But how do you, you know, what is your--what's your vision for how that works the most successfully? How do you--how do you, in your position as a consulting agency, help to initiate change that creates a pipeline? Um, because that's also part of this, right, is how the people that you can place in those positions who are educated and informed professionals.

Davis: Right. So, you know, we--we consult with the brands on how to do that. We work with HR departments, but then also with marketing and advertising um, departments. Uh, we've worked with affinity groups within organizations like there have been some organizations that have started to have, um, 01:37:00affinity groups--employee resource groups--I was trying to figure out the name--ERGs, uh so we've done consulting with them and how to feel more empowered as a diverse group within their organizations? And then, you know, mainly right now our main focus has been on fundraising and recruiting. So we have a great partnership with Tales of the Cocktail. We did our first diversity career fair at--virtually via Tales of the Cocktail in 2021. And then we're going to be doing that live for--in 2022 um, in New Orleans. So that's another way, again, to--to talk about ways to be more--to--more diverse. First of all, you've got to put some effort into recruiting diverse talent. A lot of brands, you know, saying, well, we throw it out on insta--or on LinkedIn and anyone and 01:38:00everyone can apply for the positions, but we just don't get any diverse candidates. And unfortunately, you can't be that passive when it comes to diversity and inclusion. You have to be more aggressive in searching for diverse talent. And that's for a number of reasons, mainly because a lot of diverse, you know, African Americans, we didn't even know the spirits industry existed or had positions for us to apply to like that just wasn't on our radar. Um, and so it's also, you know, building this awareness within the community that this is a viable industry, that, you know, if you've got talent and skills to lend, we could totally use that as well. Uh. so that's the main focus is on the recruitment piece. But then also again, working with HR departments to figure out pathways for--for retention and for promotion. Um, again, you know, one of the reasons why we started this organization is when we realized that 01:39:00the people that we were working with in these multicultural departments, they were there for three and four and five years. It's, you know, from a--from a business standpoint, we're like, you should have been like, you're overdue for promotion. But when you ask the deeper question, there is no pathway to promote. Well, why is that? You know, and so how can we dispel biases? How can we work with management? How can we work with senior leadership to start to find opportunities for mentorship and pathways for leadership, pathways for, you know, this diverse talent that's sitting on the bottom to actually be able to contribute on a larger scale for these organizations?

Fernheimer: So what are some of the most important things that you think companies need to do in order to begin to create that internal infrastructure for folks to move from lower level or entry level kind of positions 01:40:00into those positions of executive leadership?

Davis: I think they have to be intentional, right. And I think they have--there has to be an awareness. I think--I think awareness comes before intention, you know. And so for some of these brands, I don't think there was even an awareness that they were doing that. I think this was a subconscious bias, if you--if I could say that, right. I don't know if that's actually a thing, but I think it was a subconscious bias.

Fernheimer: Unconscious bias is--we do unconscious bias training.

Davis: Um-hm. Unconscious. It was unconsciously done, right, but not necessarily with ill intent. It was just--

Fernheimer: --didn't think about it--

Davis: --didn't think about it. Um, and so when you raise the awareness and now say, like, look, you've got some issues here because there's no upward mobility. There's no way for leadership. There's no pathway for mentorship. You 01:41:00know, even if they didn't intentionally do it like now, once you bring that awareness to them, if they still don't create the intention to fix it, then you have problems, you know. Um, and so it's working with the brand to really see like--to uncover the hole, right. I mean, that's what Black Bourbon Society did. We found the hole and we decided to fix it. And so it's really like analyzing these corporations or these businesses and saying like, you're not--you're not very aware of what is actually going on here. Let me bring that to your attention. Now that that's your attention, how are we going to fix this? You know, um, and so I think some brands, especially the smaller brands, some brands actually want to be more diverse and more inclusive, but they're so small, there's--they can't, you know, there's four people who work within 01:42:00your company. I don't expect two of them to be black. You know what I mean? Like--(laughs)--like just fundraise, get your capital up, you know what I mean? But these multibillion dollar conglomerates, right. That have layers and layers of departments and industries and brands specific and brand teams and all this stuff, I expect those--those organizations to be more diverse than what they are.

Fernheimer: And what do you think is important like in a mentor? Um, I mean, you talk about the three wise men kind of--alright, if it's fair to make this assumption that they were kind of mentors of sorts for you.

Davis: Um-hm.

Fernheimer: You know, but in terms of creating these pathways, what's important in terms of developing either a mentoring system within a corporate structure or--my home base is academia. You know, we've got the certificate program here in distillation, wine and brewing at UK. And we've been thinking very 01:43:00consciously aware, strategically about how to create those structures too. So talk to me about that, mentoring. What makes a good mentor? How do you--how do you create that infrastructure?

Davis: This is very interesting that you mentioned that like right now I've got a project with Maker's Mark to do just that, to provide more mentorship and to provide more apprenticeship opportunities, especially for students of color, right. Like these are--these like D&I, we have to just say this flat 01:44:00out, diversity and inclusion does not change overnight. It takes like--it's gonna take like three generations. Your children, my children might really get a chance to see it in its glory. I think they're growing up in the world where it's shifting and I can see D&I really successfully on their level at eight and twelve and a newborn age, right. Like I can see the and I really working on that scale and they'll grow up in a world that will be diverse and inclusive. But for us, right, as an industry that's already existing and moving and shaking, um, mentorship programs, even at the collegiate level really don't come into fruition like tenfold until like, twenty years after the fact. But it's a seed, right. And so that's what mentorship does. Mentorship is simply a seed. It's a solid foundation of um, planting and inspiring a younger person, right. Giving them some sort of guidance, some kind of--some kind of codes like the cheat code to the game, to the industry. And you let them also develop and blossom and grow. And then they--they are the ones that can flourish, but it doesn't change the industry overnight. Um, so, you know, we've got this program with Maker's Mark that will--that will work with, you know, college kids who are interested in distilling, who are interested in going into the industry, are 01:45:00future leaders of the industry um, and giving them that opportunity to see how the sauce is made now, letting them know that they are welcomed and that, you know, they could see them and giving them the opportunity to even see themselves in the space, you know, so that mentorship is really important for that aspect. But we're just planting. All we can do with mentorship is plant seeds and we'll see what happens.

Fernheimer: Who were some of the female or Black mentors that you had in the industry? I realize this is a crazy--it probably sounds like a crazy or--or naive question, but I--legitimately I mean, you mentioned the three wise men, but they're all older white men. Which is not saying they're not good mentors. It just means that you probably don't see yourself there in the same way that you might in some other places. So who were some of those other mentors?

Davis: Um, because I'm so unique in what I do, I don't necessarily--I 01:46:00didn't necessarily have mentors, right. Like I have colleagues. Um, and I am able to just kind of feel my way through and kind of bounce some ideas off of them. Um, Peggy Noe Stevens is really a really good colleague. Um, Tracie Franklin is a really good colleague. Um, I think those two are probably, you know, my--there--there's--there's Julia Conely--uh--uh--Julia Coney is actually in the--in the wine industry. She is one of the first black, you know, female Sommeliers. She writes for, um, I think she's an editor for Vine Pair 01:47:00now. Um, she and I have developed a relationship. Um, and so we bounce ideas around. And I would say she is a mentor, right. Like, you know, if I say an idea, you know, she'll quick to say, you're thinking too small. You know, think bigger. Tracie Franklin is good at that, too. You're thinking too small, think bigger. Um, so I have a pack of women who I consider like colleagues, my peers that I reach out to from time to time. But, you know, I really don't--I don't have--there wasn't anybody before me, so I don't have a mentor. I just kinda had to figure it out, you know.

Fernheimer: But now you have 20,000--25,000 mentees, right--(laughs)--so how do you see yourself as a mentor? And in that role, um, you know, they call you mother, that's your -----------(??) --(both laugh)--

Davis: Um, I just see myself as uh, someone who leads by example. You 01:48:00know, um, I don't think that I'm any better than any one of my mentors and like I said, one of my--one of my--my members. And like I said, you know, I learn from them. I'm observing them and I'm creating content for them. You know, so um, I just want to keep my audience engaged and--and--and push them and challenged. And so, yeah, they just, you know, they're my peers too now.

Fernheimer: When you say lead by example, what is important for you? I mean, we've talked a bit about your brand and the ethos of the brand that you've created and how it's important for that to be communicated through 01:49:00the ambassadors. But when you, you know, you also have an ethos as the leader of this organization and you know, a personal brand. I don't know if that's really the word you want to use, but like a personal reputation, ethos, the way that you want to present yourself to both your members, but also the professional world. And so what is really key and important for you when you're establishing that ever so important, for example, to showcase? And how do you do that in your posts, in your written text, in the way that you're interacting with peers both online and in-person, although mostly, I'm guessing--well, both now, but you know, throughout the pandemic--

Davis: Yeah, it's been both. It's been both. Yeah. You know, I just try to be 100% authentic and respectful and professional. Um, I actually do have a personal brand that's built on, you know, women's empowerment and helping women to find their purpose and their passion in life. And I bring that 01:50:00same energy to the spirits industry, um, just being authentic and being rooted in what my purpose and my passion is for this industry. Um, and I think that's why we've gotten such great success you know, it's that--it's the energy that I bring to the table and uh, the determination that I bring for the events and being able to see each one of my members as like someone who is really valuable, right. And I and I often say, like, you know, BBS wouldn't be the successful if we didn't have the 25,000 members that support us, if we didn't have the paid society members that have literally invested in the growth of this business. Um, and so it's--it's always coming to the table with reverence um, and respect and a little bit of wisdom, right. But that's--and I think there's 01:51:00just a part of me being authentic, you know. So, yeah, I just--I'm just 100% myself.

Fernheimer: You mentioned the paid society membership and I thought was one--another thing I wanted to ask you about. So when did BBS kind of shift into that tiered membership model and where did the idea come from? And how does that kind of investment work to help make different kinds of things possible for the organization itself?

Davis: Um, I think it came in a year in, so somewhere in twenty--it wasn't '17. It must have been 2018.

Fernheimer: Okay.

Davis: Then 2018, we came up with the membership structure um, and it was again to provide this more exclusive experience. We were starting to get really, really big, and yet our events were still relatively small, um, and 01:52:00we wanted to be able to, again, provide some sort of exclusivity, some extra exclusive perks for members. We've got these great membership pens and a membership card. You know, again, that--that traditional society model came with and, you know, most societies, right, in-person societies have a membership, but you pay something to do that. Um, so it was really, again, my kind of going back to that--that structure of what the society could be, the community aspect of it was and people wanted to just support us. They wanted that membership pen, they wanted to proudly wear the shirt that said that they were a part of Black Bourbon Society. And so we did--we did the tiered membership for that. And again, I think after a while, after participating and falling in love with BBS and realizing how much value it brings to folks personally, how it's helped them to develop whole new social networks, how it's helped them--how to 01:53:00help them survive a pandemic. I think that's what--our members now do it as a way to say thank you, you know. Um, and so they--they--they become members. You know, they're--they're more BBS than me sometimes. You know, I'm in the thick of it every day, I get tired and they're like, we love BBS. What's next? What are we doing? When's the next tasting? And I'm kind of like, I need to catch my breath. But they are--they are all in, and they keep me going. So, yeah, I totally love the members. Yeah.

Fernheimer: Walk me through a day in the life of Samara Davis. I mean, I watch what goes on in the BBS and how many posts you make and how you respond to the members. And I'm exhausted. I mean, it's--it's not in a bad way. Let me say that more positively, like I'm amazed by the energy.

Davis: Yeah.

Fernheimer: But not just the kind of energy, just the sheer blunt 01:54:00force energy of what it takes to be in-person in all these different places during a global pandemic.

Davis: Right.

Fernheimer: You're orchestrating these things. So you get up in the morning, you make--you make a post, you know, how do you--where's the inspiration come from? Tell me all that. Walk me through.

Davis: Um, I wish it was more of a method--(both laugh)--it's just whatever is on my mind or whatever someone said, whatever article I read, I guess, you know, some of that drives it. I don't necessarily post every day anymore just because we're really transitioning into something much bigger than this now. But you know, I've got a social media team that helps me with my content now, so they can help to kind of drive those conversations when I'm not looking.

Fernheimer: And that's part of this contracted team now?

Davis: They're a part of my team, right? So I've got some proxies out there. I'm not afraid to admit that. And um, but no for me, like, my every 01:55:00day is a struggle. It's a jungle. I'm a, you know--yes, we've got this company and we've got this nonprofit, but I'm still a mom.

Fernheimer: Yeah, that was sort of the implicit part of that question. Right. Like, how do you balance being--

Davis: Because, like I said, I'm still a mom. Like, I'm still a wife, like, I'm still trying to figure life out. You know, so when I get up in the morning, it's normally to get up and take my kids to school. And then when I come back, I don't--I don't work on BBS right away. I don't work on BBS until twelve o'clock. My mornings--and I've--through trial and error and through the struggles of the pandemic, I have created very strict boundaries for myself. So my mornings after I drop my children off to school, I spend in meditation and 01:56:00journaling and reading um, and going to, you know, work out. So my morning is for my personal well-being. Um, and I realized that after much burnout, right. Because you can't--you can't have strict boundaries like this in year one, right, and year two of any business. But I pulled all-nighters. I was, you know--if I was addicted to anything, I was addicted to coffee at one point, right. Like, I've never had an alcohol addiction, but I had a coffee addiction that I had to get rid of. But I was--I was burning that--those midnight oils way back when. Now I don't have to. And I'm much better at taking care of my family and myself first. And then I give everything that I have to BBS. And when I'm in that zone, I'm--I'm totally in the zone and I'm cranking it out and I'm working and I'm texting, you know, I'm texting with my assistant and I'm 01:57:00emailing, you know, um, a client about something or brand about something. I'm monitoring the page, making sure that, you know, no one's trying to sell bourbon on the, you know, fake bourbon Internet, like I'm doing all these things simultaneously. So it is a bit like a jazz competition. It's a little bit of everything at the same time. Um, and so, yeah, it is kind of crazy pants. But then six o'clock comes or whatever time, sometimes it can't just be 6. But there does come a point where I cut it off and I say, okay, that's it. I'm going to spend some time with my children. I'm going to have dinner with my kids. Um, and if I want to start back up, which often is the case, I may work a couple more hours after I get my kids in bed. But then it's--by ten, eleven o'clock, shut it down, get refocused, recentered, and, you know, get ready for the 01:58:00next day. So that's what my day looks like. It's--it's a lot of zen and then it's crazy pants and then it's family crazy pants and then, you know, it's kind of zens back out.

Fernheimer: And how do you how do you handle sort of the responsibilities of kids and family and travel? I realize, you know, now that Armond is--is in the spouse position now and he's also a partner in this part of the world that you're occupied. And maybe that's easier, but I may be making assumptions here. I don't want to do that. Tell me about how you balance sort of bourbon celebrity life with the needs of your family outside of that window. Given that a lot of what you do with BBS and Diversity Distilled involves travel and a lot of time away.Davis: Yeah. Um, I think what I've realized, 'cause I used to be more bourbon celebrity like way, way, way more bourbon forward. And like I 01:59:00said, I used to write pieces, I used to, you know, comment way more on the page, do more posts and all that stuff. So I've sort of slacked off of that uh, because it's not really that important--and it's important, but it's not the priority for me anymore. And I do have to go through some personal situations in order to reshuffle like, what really is a priority. And even with, you know, we're working with the brands, like the brands, they understand my boundaries. You know, like during the pandemic, I have my auto response was like, look, yes, I am, you know, top 40 under 40, you know, one of the -----------(??) top 75. You know, I'm this and this and I do all these things and that's great, but I'm also in the middle of the pandemic and I've got two kids at home. I'm the lunch lady. I'm IT person. Like I can't be all the things all the time. So 02:00:00I kind of had to like train the folks who work with me that like there is a space when I am completely available to you. But it may not just be right now, you know. So there are some boundaries there. And I think for the most part, the brands that I work with really respect that, especially the women. The women from these brands are like, oh my God, I need that. Um, but I wasn't afraid to put that up there and say, like, look, I really want to work with you. We can work together, but just not in this space, not in this moment. Um, and so I've had to do that and I've had to just shift my priority and say, my family is number one. My health and my well-being is number one. And then after all of that is well, then you got all of me. I'm actually at my best, right? Because I'm not distracted, and I feel 100% well and my mind is clear. You 02:01:00actually are getting the best of me at that point.

Fernheimer: What are the texts that you read in that morning time? Is it industry stuff?

Davis: No.

Fernheimer: Okay.

Davis: It is, you know, I the--the other side of me, right, there's like a duality here. But there's a spirit side, and there's the spirituality side of it. And so a lot of my personal reading and personal development is around my spirituality. So, like, right now, I'm reading the Celestine Prophecy, um, which is, you know, a book from I think I'm from the seventies or something. It's old, it's a pretty old book, but reading it in 2021 is fascinating in this context, it is--it is a prophecy. It is--it is--it is right on target. But I read that, I read-- what's another one of the books that I have? Uh, becoming 02:02:00superhuman--or Becoming Supernatural by Joe Dispenza. I also, you know, I like to journal and do my meditations and I may pull tarot cards, I--I do all sorts of stuff, but I do it for me, you know? Not for--not for the industry. Not for anything else. For me?

Fernheimer: Yeah, well, we're coming right up at the two-hour mark, so I want to be honest, you know, strict to time and things. We got started a little bit later today. Um, so I just want to thank you for your time today and then I'll--I'll stop the recording. We can talk about logistics for the next go.

Davis: Okay.

Fernheimer: But this was really, really lovely and I learned a lot talking with you, so thank you for sharing part of your day. And I know you made special privileges to let me in there before noon, so thank you. I'm honoring, seeing, acknowledging that.

Davis: Absolutely--(both laugh)--

Fernheimer: Um, so let me go ahead and hit stop record.

[End of interview.]