Interview with Carl H. Smith, Patricia Griffith, November 17, 2021

HAY: Standby, we are rolling, and action.

GRIMES: My name is Le Datta Denise Grimes and today is November 17th, 2021. I'm here today with Dr. Carl H. Smith at the Capitol City Museum in Frankfort, Kentucky. The name of the project is the 1964 March on Frankfort Oral History Project. This project is sponsored by the City of Frankfort with funding from the National Park Service's Preserving African American Civil Rights History Grant and is produced by Johanna Hay Productions. The interviews will be archived at the Louie B. Nunn Center for Oral History at the University of Kentucky Libraries and exhibited at the Capital City Museum in Frankfort. Good morning, how are you?

SMITH: I'm fine, how are you?

GRIMES: Doing really well. Could you introduce yourself, state your name and your age and year of birth?

SMITH: I am Carl H. Smith. I've forgotten when I was born. (laughs) 00:01:00No, I am ninety years old. I was born in 1931.

GRIMES: Wow. Your birth date?

SMITH: And--and that is, my birth date is October 7.

GRIMES: Okay. So, who were your parents?

SMITH: My parents were Walter Smith was my father, and Arlee May (??) Smith was my mother. And I was born in the big city of Terrell, Texas. That's about thirty-five miles south of Dallas. And it's a little farm town, and I was a young farmer with my great-grandfather.

GRIMES: Who is your great-grandfather?

SMITH: His name was Tom Henderson. And he was a very fortunate man in that he didn't go, didn't finish high school, however, he was a man who owned his farm. He was the only African American in that county who owned his own farm. And-- --he was just a wonderful guy. And I don't think Papa really read. I 00:02:00was just a young kid when I left and went in the military and then when I came back, Papa was dead. So, it's kind of sad because, my great-grandfather taught me just about everything, starting out. And even though he may not have been able to read, he taught me how to count, and he taught me how to think and use my head. And I learned a lot from him. And he was my shining star.

GRIMES: How did he come to own his own land?

SMITH: Well, you know, this goes so far back, because Papa was born in Louisiana, and that's where he met Mama, my great-grandmother. And--

GRIMES: --her name?--her name?

SMITH: --her name is, oh gosh, what's Mama's name? Well--Della. Her 00:03:00name was Della. And she used to play the piano. Not very well--(laughs)--but she played all the time. Great cook. She could cook dirt, green grass, whatever, and it always tasted differently and always tasted good. And she worked from sunup to sundown. And I tell you how they met, and then I'm going to get off of this subject, okay? But at any rate, she was--her father was a pastor in a church, and--and she was the person who used to go around and collect afterward, all--you know, everybody put in their nickels and dimes, and you know, regular what they had to give, that's all they could give, that's all they 00:04:00had. It was--shortly after slavery, I guess, not too far away from that. And so, one day, he had been looking at her and looking and admiring her, and one day, he caught her eye and he smiled, and she smiled back. I'm--this is what Papa telling me now, okay? And he smiled back. And Papa stood up like this. And then she came by one day and Papa put his nickel in, and then he touched her hand, gently, and she smiled again, and Papa thought, "I got her." (laughs) And eventually, they became married. And then, a whole big family started. My--grandmother, and my mother, and everybody else. Big families, but wonderful people.

HAY: Could--you--reiterate your great-grandparents' names?

SMITH: Yes, his name was Tom Henderson, and she was Della Henderson.

HAY: And their daughter?

SMITH: And then after that was my grandmother, her name was Alberta Paris, and that she was--lived in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I later went to live with her because I had to get out of the fields. I couldn't work the fields. I just--it just didn't seem right. It was very hard work, very difficult work, and I only did it because we had to do it. We didn't have other things that we could do, and that was a way that Mother could keep us all together, is that we was out in the field and she could see us and watch us. And she was working, too. My mother was a very hard worker. It was my sweetheart, I loved her so much. And I don't know how she did what she did. I don't know how any of those people had worked. I don't know how they did all that stuff. But she was a great person. And--and I have a wall, a picture of my families all the way back my--well, my grandmother, that's as far as I could go because I don't have my great-grandfather, I don't have him. But that-- --that was our father. And they were--he was--he 00:06:00was the monarch, he was the man, and he set the rules and regulations, and nobody messed with anybody's kids. And he never whipped us. And we were bad, but he'd never whip. But he could look at us and know that, "Hey, what did you do? Don't you ever." "Yeah, okay, Papa." It was a different society. It was a different way of life. It was a different kind of love and--and everything. We didn't have a thing but nobody ever complained because we didn't know what else was better, because this was all that we knew. We worked, we played, we had fun, and a lot of love. Now--

GRIMES: So you were talking--.

SMITH: --go ahead--

GRIMES: --I'm sorry.

SMITH: That's okay.

GRIMES: So, you were talking about how you all came to own the land there.

SMITH: Yeah. Well, Papa, he first was a sharecropper. I mean he, you 00:07:00know, that's how he started out. But I don't know everything, because I was so young then, but the more that I grew up and before I went in the military and all of that, I spent a lot of time with him. And I got to know him. He was a very strong man. And--and he wasn't a big man, but he was kind of tall, taller than I, and of course, you know, he'd go to church and everybody used to say, "Oh, that's a handsome man," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know. And Mama would always say, "Um-hm. Okay. I know it," or whatever. But Papa was very, very dedicated to his work and everything. So, I wish I knew how it came about, but in some way, he set a deal with the owner of the property of that 00:08:00farm. --That man owned so much land and he set a deal with Papa. And some way, Papa used to work extra for him. And eventually, they set up an agreement and Papa worked until he owned the property.

GRIMES: How did that make a difference in your life, you all owning the land versus sharecropping?

SMITH: Oh, God. I mean, it was a--well, at the time, I didn't think that much about it because Papa was such a strong-willed guy and had a lot of imagination. He'd always tell us that we were going to be really, really smart one day, and great one day, and all of that. And I--I used to remember a lot of it, and he knew about me. He used to say, "You know, you'll never work around 00:09:00this kind of stuff later on, so you better study hard, (laughs) because you're not--you're not a real good worker." And I really wasn't a very good worker, not like my brothers were. And so, in some way, Papa set a deal with the guy. Now, I do remember this, that I had gone someplace and I got home one evening and this man was there talking to Papa, there's another man there, a white fellow who was there. The guy was kind of buying land out in that area. And he had struck up a deal with Papa. Papa was always a little bit fidgety when it would come to money and stuff like that, because he wasn't sure. I mean, he'd go by instinct. So, the guy was talking to him and he was saying--Papa said, "Well, I don't quite understand everything, but I'm going to get it, I'll get there, I'll 00:10:00get there," and Papa was asking questions. And finally, he said to him, Papa said, "You know, something that I probably needed to kind of talk this over with my children," and he had grown children, many of them were gone, all of them had gone. He had about seven or eight children. They had all gone away, Chicago, and all the other big cities, and Dallas, and places like that to live. And the guy said, "You know what? We don't have to worry about them, Tom." He said, "We'll just--we just keep them away from here so we can go ahead and do our business right through." And says--said--Papa said, "Oh, wait a minute." I'll never forget, he said, "Wait a minute." He said, "I would never keep my children away from my home." And the guy was saying, "Well, I didn't mean it quite like that, Tom," and then Papa says, "You know what? I think I better go in and get my sleep in. I've got to go; I've got to work tomorrow. And I'll talk to 00:11:00you later." And that's only time I saw him rise up in that way, because most of the Black people were rather quiet, and unassuming, and really kind of afraid. Papa was never afraid, but he never had a--any kind of a cross with an individual that I can think of. And that was Papa. So--but the land--the land became ours, it became everybody's and the family's home and they eventually sold everything, later on. Well, they sold it, but they didn't sell it for what they should have gotten. And I remember that--that one particular scene whereby Papa had made some plans with the guy, what they were going to do and they decided they were going to name the farm--the farm wasn't too far 00:12:00from, you know, the metropolitan area in Terrill, Texas, and they were going to name it after him, "Henderson Park." They didn't do that. They took it and they didn't give them nearly what they should have gotten. They did get something out of it, but they didn't give them what they should have gotten. And I have never forgotten that. And the older I got, the more I think about it, I become a little bit angered by it. But I've let it go now. I mean, it's--it happened to a lot of families and things like that. But that's basically it. And I always model myself after him. He was the kind of man I wanted to be.

GRIMES: How so? Can you describe him a little bit? What kind of man did you want to be because of him?

SMITH: Well, I wanted to be able to talk to people and not be afraid. I've seen too many men about that time who was working in the fields and 00:13:00things, and--they worked hard, they didn't get paid very much for it, but they didn't have no place to go. But Papa, eventually, when I was growing up big enough, he was doing his own land. He was working and tilling his own soil. So, he knew what he wanted, and what he needed, and he was able to accomplish those things. And he was just a great man.

GRIMES: Where were you educated? What schools did you attend?

SMITH: Well, when I was in the ninth grade, I left Terrell, Texas. I went to Tulsa, Oklahoma, to live with my grandmother. And that's when I discovered that--that--there--there was another life that wasn't so hard. And I 00:14:00discovered that there were boys and girls that went to school and did the things that I wanted to do. I wanted to do everything everybody's doing. I wanted to play basketball. I wanted to play football. I wanted to do all of this. Couldn't do any of that because I just wasn't that good. Those guys were really good. And they were bigger. I was a--was the little guy. And--but there was a thing called choir. (laughs) And so, in the ninth grade--I don't want to go through--you, you all want to hear this? (laughs) In the ninth grade, I went in the first day. The teacher introduced me. This is was a boys--all-boys class, the boy's glee club, introduced me, and the first difficult experience of my life and embarrassing point of my life, I'll never shall forget it, she had--all of the 00:15:00boys had to sing something, you know, just a simple (sings), you know. And I was so nervous, I just--it just wouldn't come out. But also, I did not know my voice had changed. It was going through a change, and she wasn't smart enough to tell me, "Your voice is changing." When you get to be twelve years old, or thereabouts, you know, sometimes a little before, in that time period, you don't sustain tones. Lord have mercy. And I was terrible. And the kids were like, you know, look at that. And I looked and I saw them. I have never been so embarrassed in my life. It's the worst part of my life I've ever seen. And--finally, she detected it, and she says, "Oh okay, very good. Now let's go to the next--and the next, and, you know. At that moment, if she was 00:16:00smart enough, she should have said, "His voice is changing, boys, and your voices are going to change like that one day. And you're going to go through the same thing." I did not. I was in pain for the rest of the day. I went home and I was in pain. I went to my room and I sat in my room, and I was upset. And I never shall forget. I went back the next day, and a guy by the name of Roscoe, and we became very good friends, he's dead, and my best friend in high school. Roscoe came to me, he said, "Hey, Carl, come here, man, yeah." He said, "let me tell you something." (laughs) "You kind of messed up in there, you know that, don't you?" I said, "Yeah." I said, "Yeah, man, yeah, you know." He said, "Don't worry about it. You'll be all right. You'll be all right. Where you 00:17:00from?" Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We became good friends. So, I would say about a month later I would assume, or two months later, we were going through the same kind of thing in this classroom, because at the time, I would just sing softly, but I was listening to everybody. But every time I went home, I practiced and I sang the same thing over and over and over that those guys were singing. And I said, "You know, I can sing and stuff." So, we got in there one day and the teacher said, "Okay, I want--who's going to do the solo? Who wants to try out for the solo?" And all, you know how those boys, and on, and yeah man, and they raised their hand. And they would sing, "Oh, that sounds good," and "That sounds good," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, finally I'm sitting back there thinking, "I can do this better than any one of these knuckleheads. I know I can." And finally, I raised my hand, like that. And the teacher saw me raise my hand, and she looked away because she thought 00:18:00that I was going to be embarrassed, I think. And I raised it again, and finally she called me, "Okay, Carl," and they others doing this. Nothing but boys in there. I guess there were at least twenty guys, twenty boys in that room. And anyway, I start singing. I don't know what the song was, I don't remember. And I couldn't tell you for nothing. I was so nervous and sweat was going, and I sang. And when I finished, you could hear a pin fall. And she said, "That is the most beautiful singing I have ever heard." That was my beginning of being a musician. I tell it sometimes, sometimes I don't. But I can remember. So, I was always sensitive and have always been sensitives to young boys and young girls who are trying to sing. That--that was me. And then later on, I just decided 00:19:00that that was what I wanted to do. I had first wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to be an eye specialist, an eye doctor. But I later discovered that I didn't have the money to do that. I had nowhere to go to school. I was an average student and I didn't have the background a lot of these kids had. They'd had algebra, and these courses, like, early on and stuff. I was just getting all of that and I said, "Man, I'll be too far behind." But music just kept coming to me easier and easier. I'd go in there. And then, finally, my uncle, my uncle was a guy who was a wonderful man. He could cook. But he had [a] problem. He couldn't leave his hands off the things. (laughs) He was always in jail or somewhere. But a wonderful guy, just great. Anyway, somewhere, he got a trumpet, he got me a trumpet. I don't know where he stole it from. (laughs) But, he had a trumpet . And I started playing that trumpet. And that's how I got to be in 00:20:00the band a little bit later on. And I had trumpet lessons. I used to work in a little restaurant in the latter part of my ninth-grade year, and I made money, so I used to give him, I think he charged me, like, a dollar for a thirty-minute lesson or something like that. And I eventually learned to play the trumpet. And he says, "You could play a good trumpet," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So, finally he said, "I can get rid of it--I'm ready to give him--fifty cents, a dollar, whatever--"Keep it, Carl," he says, "Go on. What I want you to do, I want you to learn to play this exercise right here, and this one right here, and this one right here." And before I knew anything, I was in a band. So that's beginning of my music, and singing, and as well as playing.

GRIMES: Where'd you graduate high school?

SMITH: Booker T. Washington High School, in 1949.

GRIMES: Where was this? Was this in--

SMITH: That was in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

GRIMES: And college?

SMITH: College, Lincoln University, Jefferson City, Missouri. And that was about five years later.

GRIMES: Did you pursue music in college as well?

SMITH: Yes, indeed, I did. I couldn't think of anything else. And that's what I loved to do. And have not regretted it one time. (laughs)

GRIMES: What was some of the early music you sang or played?

SMITH: Oh, you would asked me a good question. Let's see. Well, really, think about the schools in the system at that time. You had Black schools, you had white schools. And the separation of that meant that you gonna get this kind of music here, and you gonna get this kind of music over here. And you're not going to get this over there, and you're not going to get that over here, you know? So, we did a lot of spirituals to begin with, to be honest about it. Well, we began to learn other songs. We did other stuff. We had some pretty good teachers. But the spirituals were the main thing, because the music 00:22:00came from the churches. And that's where everybody went. Church was--I mean, you know, everybody went to church, then. You just--you had to go to church. If you didn't go to church, you couldn't play the rest of the day outside. You got to stay in the house. Boys in?? I said, "You didn't go to church?" "No, what? Man. I didn't feel like getting up." "Oh." You know, so, if you wanted to do all those things, you had to go. So in--in Tulsa, we had a wonderful church. We had a wonderful youth program. And we did music. And Sunday was just the place. I had one full suit. And the only place I could wear that was to church, or to a school program. That's just the way it was. But every day, I was clean. I took a bath every day, and my grandmother didn't play. And eventually, I 00:23:00started getting jobs and I was--things were just working out at. Then after that, I just decided, "I'm going to go to college and I'm going to be a musician." That's what I want, there's nothing like it. And I was happy there, I had friends there, I could see myself grow that way. I had experience of singing with other groups because I was picked for special groups to go out and sing here and there and everywhere. And it was a great place for co-education of whites and Blacks. That was an area that we could meet other people. I made a lot of other friends that way. And we just had a ball. It was just a great thing. I mean, school was great, you know? I mean, hey, from where I came from, my God, it was heaven.

GRIMES: So, was Lincoln an integrated college or--

SMITH: Oh, Lincoln was. It's traditionally a Black university because 00:24:00it's highly integrated now, I mean, it's practically all-white, I understand. But it's a--it was a great school. A wonderful school. And I went, and that's where I got the bachelor's degree.

GRIMES: So, was it a HBCU? [Historically Black Colleges and Universities]

SMITH: Yes, It was. Yeah, yeah. It still is an HBCU, I think. Well, traditionally. And--as most of them are, and many of them have changed through the years, which is good.

GRIMES: Do you remember any songs you sang there?

SMITH: Oh, God, shoot. Let's see. (laughs) I think a lot of songs that I later discovered that I wasn't able--I should not have been singing because they were too hard to sing. But I tried, anyway. A lot of them I sang because I just liked to sing them. I liked the music. But you know, there are songs that you sing that are applicable to your age, and experience. But I always liked things like opera, and [in] particular, I like the tenors, because I was a 00:25:00tenor-bass. But I made a discov--I probably wasn't a tenor. I think I was singing it because they always needed the tenor part, or something, but I really was more of a baritone voice, which is a middle--lower voice. But--but it was fun. One of the things I liked about it was that you always were in the limelight, and everybody knew you, and you know, and all the pretty girls and everything, that was around that made you feel decent.

GRIMES: Where'd you get your masters?

SMITH: From Tulsa University.

GRIMES: And your doctorate?

SMITH: From University of Pittsburgh.

GRIMES: And what was your career trajectory?

SMITH: Well, I wanted to be a university professor. I--I was lucky and doing what I wanted to do. After a while, that was what I wanted--well, first of all, my first love would have been to be able to get on the stage and 00:26:00sing. Now, I would have loved to have been able to do that, because I just admired those who could sing so well. But I did not have that kind of a voice. I was--a singer who enjoyed singing, but I'd begun to--by the time I was a junior in high school, I started looking at some choir directors and I started hearing different choirs, and the sounds challenged me, and really, really made me think about what I wanted to do. But I was still thinking in the back of my mind that I wanted to be an MD. I wanted to be a doctor. But I knew that was a hard way to go. So--and I really loved music anyway, so what the heck. I was happy there. I never regretted it. I never have regretted it. The idea of working 00:27:00with young people, and even younger ones, and then working with older people, the admiration I have for those who are great choir directors, and I started going to workshops, and seeing all these different guys work, you know, different guys talking differently from different areas, and different universities, there was--I had no choice. That was it. I mean, it was just--I thought it was so beautiful. And to hear them--how they would blend their voices, it was just more. And you know, I've thought more about that than I did as, "How much money are you going to be making, man?" I never thought too much about that. I mean, I thought about it, but that didn't seem to matter.

GRIMES: So, where was your first job?

SMITH: My first teaching job was in Poplar Bluff, Missouri. That's a small city in Missouri. And that was my first job. And I was there for about a 00:28:00year, and then after that, I went to--let's see, when I left--when I left there, I went in the military. I was in the military for two years. I had a pretty good assignment.

GRIMES: What branch did you serve in?

SMITH: I served in the Army. That's the only one. (laughs) Military man. I mean, Marines, they won't say let's all get out of here, military man. You know, my son was an Air Force, and he had a different service than I. I mean, those guys, well, they're something. They stayed in hotels, you know, we stayed in the bivouac area. (laughs) We used to talk about that. But I enjoyed the military life, very, very much. It was wonderful. And I was stationed in Hawaii, (laughs) eighteen months . Loved it. But I was glad to get home. And then, came 00:29:00back and worked on my master's and eventually, I was assigned a position here, at--at the Kentucky State, Kentucky State College then. And I've been there ever since. I had many opportunities to leave but just something wouldn't let me go. I just--it seemed like the students were more important than, you know, a few more dollars. You know, I could have used those dollars. I have five children, so I could use those dollars. (laughs)

GRIMES: Were you married and who are your children?

SMITH: Yeah, we got married--let's see, what year--how long had I been here? I guess I had been here about three years, and then I think we got--that's when I think we got married.

GRIMES: Who is your wife?

SMITH: Huh?

GRIMES: Who was your wife?

SMITH: My wife is Barbara. Her name was Barbara Reed, from Cincinnati, Ohio. And--I saw her--well, actually, I saw her the first day that I was 00:30:00here. We had to go--up Jackson Hall to register students. And I saw her. And at the time we were there, a buddy of mine named Crump, Bill Crump, we were registering students, and he was here, and I was here. So, we were young, you know? And I mean, we would sit back and you know, we'd reg--help them get their curriculums together of classes and all that, and he'd look back and he said--he'd lean over and said something like, "Hey son, look at this." He said, "Check out number four with the white dress on," blah blah blah. And I said, "Oh, yeah. Okay, okay," and I'd get back, I'd look back and I'd lean over and like, "Hey, Bill, boy, she is fine." And he'd say, "Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." And so, finally, Barbara came up into this one line 00:31:00here, and his line was over here. And he said, "Excuse me just a minute, please. Excuse me, Carl, come here a second. I need you to help me with something." So, he said, "Man, would you look at number six? Would you please look at number six? My goodness alive. God only made her. Check her out." And I mean, it was--whatever it was. And I'm looking, and you know, I'm thinking--I get back in line, and I'm looking and I see a, "My God. Oh, I got to hurry up and finish with this so I can get to her, she's in my line." And the strangest thing happened. She came up, she was next in line, this one person was in front of me and I had a rough time with that boy trying to help him to get his curriculum together. I couldn't get help but get him out of there. And by the time I got him up, I looked up, expecting to see her, you know, and I straightened up. She gone to another line. (laughs) She had gone to another line. But 00:32:00eventually, we did kind of get together, and--and talked to her, and everything. And I knew that was it. I didn't--I didn't need to do nothing else. That was it. And so, we eventually got married and [had] five children.

GRIMES: What are your children's names?

SMITH: Oh, my goodness. Carla, Karen, Christopher, Christy, and Carlton. Five of them. Two boys, three girls. They all sound like [makes a K-sound] I don't know why I did that. I don't know if I should have done that or not, but I was so proud of them. Every one of them, I was just proud of.

GRIMES: So, talk about your time at K State. What was it like? When you got here, what did it look like?

SMITH: At Kentucky State?

GRIMES: Um-hm.

SMITH: Well, we didn't have a music building. We had a house where 00:33:00that--where the music classes were taught. And the chairman of that music department, we could call it that, it wasn't real big, was Mr. Baker. And he was a keyboard man, played organ and piano, and he composed, and a nice man. Got to know him and he was very helpful to me, to you know, teach me the ropes of getting going and learning various things about teaching and everything else. And he and his family were there. And Kentucky State was Kentucky State College, then. Now, before that, you know, it was Kentucky State Industrial School for Colored People. That was the name of it. And then, later on it became Kentucky State College, and then later on, Kentucky State University. So, a 00:34:00lot of history at that school in the time I was there. I stayed there. I started to leave several times. I had several opportunities, but something just kept pulling me back, and just kept pulling me back. And so, I ended up staying.

GRIMES: What role were you hired for?

SMITH: What job? Choir director. I was choir director and--and music teacher. It was beautiful. Great teachers, wonderful teachers. And I just fell in love with Kentucky, even though it had its problems, but most southern states, borderline states, whatever, had their problems, particularly racially. But I had learned to adjust to a lot of that. And I have seen many things change. Of course,

GRIMES: What were some of the racial problems you saw?

SMITH: Well, there were places down here we didn't eat. We didn't eat here. We went to--let's see, right on the corner, right over there on that corner, was a restaurant that you couldn't attend, Black folk didn't go to. That church right there, right there, it was all white. I had never even been in there. I passed by one day, and I heard their organ playing, and I thought it was the most beautiful thing I ever heard. And--but I knew that I wasn't welcome. Or, at least, I felt that I wasn't welcome. But you know how those things go. Let's see, a few years later, I ended up being the choir director at that church.

GRIMES: What's the name of that church?

SMITH: First Christian Church, Frankfort. And one of the most 00:36:00beautiful churches and filled with a lot of beautiful people. I thought that--I didn't know how I was going to feel. I--I Dr. Chenault came to Frankfort, came to the university, visited, and said, "Mr. Smith, I'd like to talk with you," and I said, "Okay." We sat (??), and he said, "We're looking for a choir director at our church." And at that time, there was a young mother named--a young man by the name of Roberts. His father was a minister here in Frankfort, a young white boy who was finishing up his degree. And he was in my choir. And I said, "I recommend him strongly." I said, "He's a fine young man from a fine family," and I said, "You know his father." He said, "Oh, yes. I know him." He said, "But we're not looking for a student. I said, "Well, he's 00:37:00graduating. He won't be a student for long." But he says, "Well, I'm sorry, but no, we want you." "You want who?" And I thought he was kidding me at first. And he says, "No, I'm serious." He said, "We've heard your choir sing and so forth, and we like it. We'd like you for you to come and try out for our church choir director." Well, I just didn't know what to say. And that's how I got to that church and--became the director there. And I was there for forty-seven years. I was the director there and just retired the last few years ago, I retired.

GRIMES: How did it feel to be asked to direct a choir in a church where you previously could not attend?

SMITH: Oh, that happened so much in life. Being a Black man in Texas, 00:38:00I've seen so many changes. Right here at this restaurant here, it used to be--I can't think of the name of the restaurant on the corner, there. Anyway, that restaurant, I went there. We had a sit-in. We used to sit in here. And I went over there with some students. We walked in and he told us, he said, the man who owned it said, "I'm sorry," he said, "But we won't be able to let you in." And I had four or five students with me. And I got a little bit perturbed by it, it kind of bothered me. I said, "You know something?" I said, "You know, I was born in this country. I used to work the fields in this country." I said, "You are from Italy." I said, "Your people are from Italy. I'm more--I--I should be here more than you." (laughs) You know, and he says, "Well, you probably right about that. But I'm sorry."

GRIFFITH: Was it Putt's?

SMITH: Putt's. that's it, that's his name. It was Putt's, yes. And I said, "Well, I'm not going to disturb anything." He said, "I'll take the students on away," I said, "But that you understand that I don't like this at all." I said, "I'm also a veteran. And I don't know if you're a veteran or not." He said, "No, I'm not a vet." I think he said, "No, I'm not a veteran," I believe. I said, "Well, I'm the veteran. This is my country. And I can't eat in your restaurant." He said, "I'm sorry." He was a nice man. He wasn't mean. He said, "I'm sorry." So, we left. So, to make a long story short here, after things started changing, he invited me to come in and have dinner with him. And the guy by the name of Bill Crump, he and I kind of used to travel around together and try 00:40:00to break the barriers, and do things, you know, that Black folks were not supposed to do. We went in and ate, and he said, "You don't have to pay for a thing, you can have anything you want." And we sat down and ate, and supped, and talked about things. And Frankfort began to change, slowly. But I can tell you about another incident that was really strange. Over here at the five-and-dime store that was over there on--street, next street over, we went to that one day to sit in because Blacks were being you know, treated like--it was the thing to do to get your picture in the paper and to be talked about and all, and become famous, and so forth. And Bill said, "Let's go down there." --A Woolworth's. " Let's go down to Woolworth's in--and go and sit in." And I said, "Yeah, let's do it." So, we go over there sit down at the counter, and we noticed the 00:41:00Blacks in the back over there, you know the dishwashers and the cooks or whatever, they were there. They were looking and looking, and folk were then looking at us. And we sat down. So, I'm waiting, I'm wondering, "Where are the cameras?" You know. (laughs) People are going to come in and take pictures of this. And I know nobody's going to come. So, one lady acted like she was coming, but she didn't come up. So, finally, a guy came over and said, "Can I help you?" And I saw--it finally hit me, they're going to feed us? I hadn't planned for this. I've already eaten. I--don't want--(laughs)--I don't want to eat nothing, as I've already had my lunch. So, Bill sat there, he says, "Yeah, I'll have a cup of coffee." And I'm sitting over here and I'm thinking, "I don't know what to," so, I said, "A hamburger. I'll have a hamburger." (laughs) I didn't want that hamburger. But they gave it to me. They gave him his coffee. 00:42:00People were looking, but nobody said a word. It was quiet. And I said, "I feel stupid sitting here trying to eat this blasted hamburger and I really don't want it, and I don't like the way they cooked it, anyway." And I'll never forget that as long as I live. And I was so happy to get out of there and I had to pay for something I didn't want. I'd forgotten what it--what it was, I didn't have a lot of money, then.

HAY: Do you know what year, about, that was?

SMITH: Oh!

HAY: Or within the context of the 1960s or the 50s, or the 60s?

SMITH: Yeah, that was, oh gosh, no, I don't really know. I'm trying to think of when we--when that place opened up. Things were beginning to open up all the way around, the restaurants and so forth. I don't know. I wish I--I wish I knew. But if I try to guess it, it would probably be wrong. I'm trying to 00:43:00think. My oldest daughter--oh, I--I'd have to think about it. I have to get the pencil and paper and think about it and go back into the annals there and see what was going on. But that was one incident that I recall, I remember so well.

GRIMES: Do you remember what year you came to Kentucky State?

SMITH: Yeah, 1958.

GRIMES: And so, as you're, you know, staging these protests, these sit-ins, sitting at counters, what was the reaction of the university?

SMITH: Well, there were concerns. We didn't do a lot of it, I mean, but--we did enough to say, "We're concerned, and we have a--we have a role here, and we are--this is our place, too, and we deserve to be treated properly." 00:44:00And there was another restaurant down on East Main, what's the name of that restaurant? Oh, I've forgotten what it was, now. We used to, you know, couldn't go there, either. And during homecoming time, the people would come in, and they couldn't eat at the restaurant. And one time, they had a big stink about it, and there was a write-up in the paper and all of that, and they ain't a suspect, and they were evolving, you know, every little at a time, and then it got just "Well, the people enjoy having their names put in the papers," and so forth. And they started fighting. And then there were people, they would start thinking, and start feeling like, "You know what? I can do this, and I'm going to fight this thing. They're not going bother me. You know, they're not going to shoot me." You know, and then you have some people who say, "If they shoot me, I'm going to shoot them back." You know, just all kinds of stuff that was happening. It was a big--it wasn't very pleasant. It wasn't very pleasant. You didn't know who your friends were. You just--you just didn't know. But it started 00:45:00evolving, it started changing. You know, the university just began to change. Things were happening all the way around.

GRIMES: Did you know [Rufus] Atwood?

SMITH: Yeah, I knew Dr. Atwood. When I came here, Dr. Atwood brought me here, and when I came here, he and Mrs. Atwood where in Europe, on a vacation. See back then, the professors, I guess, most of the Black schools had kind of a--a congregation of people who would meet Black presidents and talk about how they're going to get money to keep their schools open, and how they can improve their schools, and things of this nature, become better schools, become competitive universities. How they are gonna better educate their 00:46:00students, and things of that nature. So, when I came here, I didn't come here before I was interviewed. I didn't have an interview. My choir director knew the president here, and they talked to each other, and these presidents would speak to each other, you know, and they'd talk about things, about, "How are we going to go about getting this kind of money mess," and, "We can keep these programs going, how are we going to get this program going?" It was not easy. And so, but Dr. Futrell (??), my college director, I was a student director when I was there of the choir, I was the student director of the band. So, I was kind of like a guy who was would just kind of push, just kept pushing, "Well, you can do this, you can do that, you can do that," now you know, so I would just, "Hey, I'm--this is the director." But I realized that I really enjoyed it, 00:47:00and I realized that it was a blessing. So, coming here, and--and settling in, I was just like--just like-- you know, the chosen boy. (laughs) I was just like their chosen one to be encouraged, to go. And I was very successful at that. I mean, it's just, that's the way it happened. So, when I got here, I met some really, really great teachers, some great teachers at Kentucky State, there were wonderful people.

GRIMES: Do you remember any of their names at all?

SMITH: Oh, let's see. Let's see who I can remember. I'm a person who doesn't--don't remember names like I should. There was Ms. Holmes, Ms. Holmes, her husband was the doctor here, he was the only Black doctor in 00:48:00Frankfort. And she was an English teacher. She was a very fine teacher. Mr. Baker was the music director, and the teacher here. He was good. And let's see, and Ms.--the piano teacher, Dixon. Mrs. Dixon. Her office was--right next to mine. She was a great lady and a very, very fine lady. And there were just a lot of really good teachers that were here. And we had one--there was one white teacher that, when I first got here, was over there. And he was well-loved.

GRIMES: Do you remember what he taught at all or?

SMITH: --oh, I--let's see--

GRIMES: --or his name?

SMITH: I don't know, because he was not in my area. So, I don't recall what he was--I don't know what his field was. But I think he was from University of Kentucky, but a well-thought of man, highly thought of man. I know I 00:49:00can look it up and--and go through my albums and I could find a lot of things.

GRIMES: Where did you live at that time?

SMITH: I lived--I lived right next to the university, not too far from that, right down the street over there. And--that's where I lived when we got married. But when I first came out, I lived in the dormitory, because I didn't have a place to live at the time. I mean, I guess I could have found something, but, you know, there was a room there that was available for me if I needed it, if I wanted it. And I didn't have to pay too much [laughs] to stay there, because I wasn't paid that much money, you know. What was it? I don't know, seven thousand dollars? I don't know what it was a year. It wasn't very much. (laughs) It was --it was nice.

GRIMES: Do you remember the names of any Black businesses or restaurants, or anything like that?

SMITH: At the time I came, I don't think so. Well, there was a place up by the university, right there on the corner there, there was a night spot. Well, I mean, it was a restaurant and club, for Blacks and owned by Blacks, I think. And that was about the only one that I can think of.

GRIMES: Okay.

SMITH: At the time. But they had organizations. They had some Black organizations. You know, I'd have to check that out to see where it was. But most of my activity was at the university.

GRIMES: So, let's move to the march. How did you get involved with the march?

SMITH: (laughs) Well, you know, that was easy. (laughs) I mean, the 00:51:00name Martin Luther King had begun to permeate. It was just, you know, it was next to the President of the United States for us (laughs). And that we just felt like we've got a leader--we've got what--God has sent us somebody, and he is wonderful, and we just hope that he doesn't get killed. That was always the thing. We just hope that he will live long enough to do something. We always felt like he could get hurt. And we were enthusiastic. We were so excited when he found out he was coming to Frankfort. How could they get him to come to little Frankfort, Kentucky, and why would he come here when he could speak in New York, and in Boston, and Chicago, and Louisville, and all these other places, and just draw hordes of people? What, look around here, and 00:52:00here he is coming to Frankfort, Kentucky, and all of these dignitaries coming in from out of town. And the choir was excited. And they said, "Oh, Mr. Smith, Dr. King is coming here to speak, and we're going to sing. Oh, what are we going to sing? What are we going to do?" You know, and I'm thinking, I just didn't know what to think of what we'd be singing. But I knew one thing, that I, for several nights there, I didn't sleep too well because I was trying to think of, "What should I do with it?" And then I'd called and talked to some of my friends who are musicians and they'd give suggestions and I just sighed and arrived at what I would do. I knew we were going to sing "We Shall Overcome." I know that, and "The Battle Hymn of the Republic," it was decided that we were singing because there was something historic about it--the musical about it, and kind of a marching spirit about it. And I think it was a song that was 00:53:00universally used, along with "We Shall Overcome." And we want thrown in of course, "The Star-Spangled Banner." And so, we did those with the songs that we sang. And I think we made the right choices. I think Martin Luther King enjoyed it. And I told him how much I admired him and so forth, anyway, I just shook his hand. It was--it was very nice. He was--he was such an interesting man. He stood up and just started talking, and he didn't miss a boat [beat]. He didn't say, "Uh," or, "Well," or blah, blah, he just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, just like a typewriter, he was just going on and on and on. And everything was just so thrilling. He--was so enthusiastic. I mean, such a great, prominent 00:54:00person. And inspiring. And warm. I was just shaking his hand, he was warm. You know, he sat in the front, like, and the choir was kind of behind him, and some of the kids were not too far away from him, and the students were just kind of admiring him, and they when they'd talk you know about, "Look at that suit that he has on," or saying, "Look at his shoes shining," and so forth and on. He was that--he just kind of liked it, just a little bit. You know, he didn't just sit still like this all day. He'd be moving, just a little. And one of the girls says, "Boy, he never stops moving, does he? He just keeps moving. You know, he just keeps," but he was just--it seemed like so much was on his mind, and he was just going, going. I guess that's what it was. And he just stood up and just as cool as a cucumber, and just start unraveling, and just 00:55:00unraveling. The crowd's going wild. I mean, it just was--do you have a live broadcast of that? Do we have one? Oh, that's a shame. But it was just--it was just great. He's just--he's just something.

GRIMES: How did you meet him and where did you meet him?

SMITH: No, I met him up there, when he was there. I just happened to pass by the choir was there in place, and I, you know, I'm going to shake his hand, if I can get down there. So, I don't know how I managed to get there, but they knew that I was, you know, trying to get the choir together. So, somewhere anyway, I just kind of leaned over and, "Welcome," or something I said to him, and then I said, "I'm looking forward to hearing you speak." He said, "Oh, thank you," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and that was about it. I mean, you couldn't--that's all you could do. I mean, all eyes on him. You know, had all kind of a 00:56:00service people were there, military, I mean, policemen and all of that was there. It just--it was a big day.

GRIMES: Where did you sit? Were you on stage, as well or--?

SMITH: I--no, I was not on stage. I was behind. I was kind of--where the choir is, where the piano is, I was in that area. And where you saw me standing on the picture, I was somewhere along in there. It was kind of chilly, a little bit, but nobody noticed it.

GRIMES: So, what songs did you--can you give me a little bit of that, the songs that you sang?

SMITH: Oh, yeah. You--you had "Battle Hymn of the Republic," "Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of," you know--you know it, "of the Lord," and of course, "We Shall Overcome," and then--the other song, "The Battle Hymn of the Republic," and then the--what are the other songs I said we sang?

GRIFFITH: Star Spangled.

SMITH: "Star Spangled Banner," yeah. We did "The Star-Spangled Banner." And it was--it was nice. It was--it was just a--it was a nice 00:57:00setting. Everything was just really wonderful.

GRIMES: Now, I believe King spoke at the 1957 graduation at K State.

SMITH: Who did?

GRIMES: Dr. King.

SMITH: Yeah.

GRIMES: Do you remember that? Did you all perform that day at all?

SMITH: Yes. Yes. We did. If he was--what year was that?

GRIMES: I want to say it was 1957 or so.

SMITH: '57. Well now, I wasn't there in '57. I went in '58.

GRIMES: Gotcha.

SMITH: Yeah--and did he come back again? You know, I'm just thinking here, I heard him on several occasions. But I am not sure that he came back. I thought that was the only visit he made. But there may have been more.

GRIMES: I know he spoke at one of the graduations, I--I could have the dates wrong, as well but--

SMITH: --okay--

GRIMES: --but I think it was, for some reason, that year stands out in my mind. So.

SMITH: Okay, you might be right. You could be right.

GRIMES: Do you remember how many students you brought with the choir, about how many?

SMITH: (laughs) Lord have mercy, how can I remember that? Now, I'll tell you what, I had a regular number of around thirty-three to thirty-five members in the choir, most of the time. And --so, I probably--it was probably something in that neighborhood, somewhere in that. And occasionally, we'd have forty. But I didn't have really big choirs. I used to have a big choir. When I first came here, we used to have church every Sunday on campus. And we'd have different numbers of people for those performances. We finally cut that out. I'm glad we did; it gave me a chance to get out into the community and do some things that I prefer doing. But.

GRIMES: Do you remember who else was at the march that day?

SMITH: That march in? Oh, gosh. I mean, I look at the pictures, I remember them. (laughs) I know the people, because I knew a lot of folk. But I knew many of the ministers who were there because I--we performed in some of their churches, in Louisville, and some other cities, and Lexington and around, because we had sponsorships from churches, so we were able to--I got to know a lot of people there, and a lot of support. We used to have a very busy choral program. And then, we had a very fine--we began to grow and get a lot better, as we got more teachers in, you know, and people like Dr. Griffith who came in as 01:00:00our pianist and played for us, who was just a wonderful person and a wonderful musician. Things begin to happen for all of us. I mean, a lot of the things were going on. It was so lively. It was such a beautiful place. Kentucky State was just a lovely place to work. And I fell in love with Kentucky, when I started working at Kentucky State.

GRIMES: Who else was on stage with you, do you remember?

SMITH: Who was what?

GRIMES: Who else was on stage? Was there--there was Dr. Ralph Abernathy.

SMITH: Well, let's see.

GRIMES: Did you meet any of them?

SMITH: I can remember Dr. Ralph Abernathy, Jackie Robinson, let's see, who were the ministers? Mostly ministers were there. I don't remember them too well.

GRIMES: What do you remember about Jackie Robinson?

SMITH: Oh, he's soft-spoken. And he was a man with a great smile, you 01:01:00know? Cheerful and confident, determined, and strong belief in his way of thinking. And one heck of a baseball player. But he was just--he was super. I'm trying to think of who else; I remember somebody else there that also spoke very well. I'll have to go back and think about it. I'll begin to think about it later on, all day long, and it'll start coming to me and I'll say, "I could have told him this." (laughs)

GRIMES: Did you shake Jackie Robinson's hand at all or--

SMITH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, that was the thing to do. I'm not going to be up on the stage and I shake these guys' hands? These [are] great people. Oh man. And they--were just so free. They were just kind of talking to people in a general way. There was no way that I was not going to participate.

GRIMES: What did it feel like that day at the capitol? Did it feel like a monumental day or historic moment at all? Or--

SMITH: It--was a great happening. I don't know how everybody felt but I think, as a young Black man, I think I was extremely proud, because I saw what my people really stood for, and they were able to display it in such a loving and kind manner. And I just hope that that feeling would permeate throughout the community and the state, and the whole United States. Martin Luther King wasn't just some ordinary individual. He was--we always felt like, you know, 01:03:00he was God's spokesman. It's about love, it's about people. And what he stood for was so much more than other people could imagine.

GRIMES: What about Peter, Paul, and Mary?

SMITH: Oh, wonderful, wonderful trio. Mary was--we talked a long time because, you know, she's--the only female in the group there, of course. But she had a great heart and a great spirit. And she was a good singer. Wasn't a big operatic singer, no, it wasn't that kind of thing. She was a heart singer, an easy singer. She was a woman and performed with two great guys, who 01:04:00respected her highly. At least, that's the impression I got. And we talked about a lot of things. And she asked a lot about my life, and we talked about it while we were waiting, because it's a lot of waiting before Martin Luther King got there. You know, we were like, one of the first groups there, so we were there early. And people would just start arriving. I'd never seen so many people down at the capitol. I have never seen that many people at the capitol since that. That--that was the most historic.

GRIMES: What does the capitol represent?

SMITH: Well, that's the chief house. That's the top house. That's where--what it's supposed to be. That's where the statue of Lincoln is supposed to be, you know, the statue of Obama is supposed to be. The Kennedys, to me, you know, particularly John Kennedy was one of my favorite presidents. Of 01:05:00course, the greatest to me was Obama. I liked so many of them. And--

GRIMES: --what about--

SMITH: --I mean, it's just something. In my mind, I look back, it's just a conglomeration of so much life.

GRIMES: What about the capitol here in Frankfort? What was the meaning of having the march there, and being on those steps, and demanding?

SMITH: Well, decisions were made. And many, many wonderful people have been at that capitol. Many have not been so wonderful. But I would think that most would be. And when I first got here, what was the governor's name? --The basketball man.

GRIFFITH: Chandler? Chandler or Nunn.

SMITH: No, not--neither one of them, the other one.

GRIFFITH: Breathitt?

SMITH: Who?

GRIFFITH: Breathitt?

SMITH: No, no, before that. I'm trying to think of--the one who was--he was in baseball, too.

GRIFFITH: Was it Happy Chandler?

SMITH: Chandler. It was Happy Chandler. That's who it was, yeah. I met him. He was at the campus, at--at Kentucky State at--at one time, at the beginning of school, he was there. And I shook his hand. And he was a nice man. Nice, warm guy. I mean, you know. But he was from the old school (laughs) you know, so you got to understand that the time you're in has a lot to do with how you respond, and how you get responses. So--but I enjoyed meeting him and talked 01:07:00to him briefly.--

GRIMES: Do you remember what you talked to Mary about?

SMITH: Oh, yeah. We talked about integration, more than anything else, you know, and we kind of both agreed, you know, musicians, musicians are the greatest integrationists that you can find. We have to work together to make the sounds. The successful musicians are the ones who can think and the ones who have a heart and a soul, to blend. And that's what people and life is about, blending, understanding, loving, being kind, adjusting, helping, assisting, this is the--this is the--whole thing about it. You know, we sometimes forget 01:08:00that the greatest integrationists, to me, were jazz musicians. Those guys played half of the night together. And you've got to know what the other guy's doing to make the right chords and right adjustments on the piano, which is the lead, and the guide, and the soul of--all of that music. And the beauty of that is life, itself. I think about--all the times that I used to go in, when I was in the military, and sit and hear the jazz musicians perform. I'd wonder, "How do these guys do this?" Well, the chords. They know the chords. They know what notes they're playing after they've played them for so long, it's just automatic. How do these pianists who play all of this difficult piano music [makes piano noises] and all over the place, how do they get there? All of them 01:09:00get together, they think, they rehearse, they help each other, they become good friends, and then, wouldn't that be great if all people did the same thing? (laughs) Yeah.

GRIMES: Do you remember what Peter, Paul, and Mary sang that day?

SMITH: Oh, boy. (laughs) I've forgotten what their songs were. You know, they had a great repertoire. And many of the songs that they sang were about love, and about togetherness. Now, I have to go back and think about it. It's just so much. Oh, there was one song that was really popular with them, I can't think of what it was. Great piece of music. But they were nice folks.

GRIMES: What I remember most from them I think was "Puff the Magic Dragon."

SMITH: "Puff the Magic Dragon," yeah, yeah, yeah. They had that one. 01:10:00But see, that was just a little bit of them. But the real Mary you didn't hear. I mean, that's a nice song, but I mean, what I'm saying is that she had a little more depth in her thoughts and in her--in her presentation.

GRIMES: More like "Blowing in the Wind?"

SMITH: Yeah, that was a nice one. That was a nice one.

GRIMES: Do you remember who your contacts were for that day? Did you meet with anybody, you know, any of the organizers or--?

SMITH: No, because most of my instruction was from--who was in charge from the university? I don't know who it was. But my thing was that, you know, they didn't know what I needed, and I knew what I'd love to have, and that is all of my choir standing together, standing behind the microphones, and where the microphone would blend all the voices. That's what I was desiring to 01:11:00find. But you're not going to find that unless you practice. Well, you don't have time to practice. What kind of practice to hear the choir director up there trying to warmup, you ain't got time for all that, so you better use your own brain. So, I had all my sopranos here, all my altos here, my basses, tenors here, and so forth and so on. And you guys pay attention, and you focus this way, so we make sure the sounds go into the microphones in that manner and try to be as cohesive and blend as much as you can.

GRIMES: Do you remember anything about the hunger strike that took place, or the sit-ins that took place at the capitol leading up to the march?

SMITH: I don't do a lot about them because I didn't participate in them. I read about them in the paper. And I think every little bit was helpful for the cause. And that's what it was all about. And, you know, really, it's so 01:12:00unfortunate that the people don't understand that there were a lot of really wonderful people, good people, on both sides. And there were some pretty ugly people, too, on both sides, I guess. But certainly, if you really think about it, there was a lot of religious people involved in these movements that have resulted in coming together as human beings.

HAY: I understood that Helen Holmes, Professor Helen Holmes had a big role in planning for the march. Do you recall any interaction with her about--?

SMITH: I would certainly--I didn't have necessarily any interaction with her during that march. However, I know Ms. Holmes, I knew her very well. And she was a go-getter, (laughs) and a great leader, and highly respected. So, 01:13:00Ms. Holmes, as well as her husband, Dr. Holmes, they were just great people. But she's always been known around the university, students were like, "She--oh boy, hey, you know, don't going and saying this and that to her," you know, "She'll make you stand and start it all over please, and discuss this," and blah, blah, blah. You know, she would have kids sitting there sweating, "Oh, gosh." So, she was a person who stood for so much that was right, and good, and helpful, for growth, for young people. They were great. Both of them were fine people.

GRIMES: What else do you remember about that actual day?

SMITH: I'm trying to think, what else do I remember?

GRIMES: Now, were you married at this point? Did your wife or your children go with you, go that day or?

SMITH: No, no, this was '64. No, my kids were young. I think Carla, 01:14:00my oldest daughter, she may have been a baby, young, then, I think she was, but the rest of them weren't even here yet.

GRIMES: How about your wife? Did she attend that day?

SMITH: Yeah, she was. Oh, you know, I haven't talked to her about that. I guess she was there. I was so busy working. I don't know if I was married then. It was '64. When did I get married? Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were married then. But I don't think she was at that. I don't think she was there. I'll have to ask. She has never told me about that, I just don't remember it. All I can tell you is this, that I was very, very concerned about the performance and being--we're having the kind of performance that would be representative of the 01:15:00university and of the state of Kentucky because I knew that this would be going around all over, this program, and I wanted to make certain that we presented ourself in the best way possible. You know, when I went in military, what I discovered more than anything else was that there was so many people who didn't think Kentucky was, you know, like other states, that we were all hillbillies. (laughs) I mean, not everybody thought that, but there were so many of them who just kind of thought, you know, everybody was Li'l Abner and so forth. You know, I mean, let's face, that's just the way it was. It would--it would be not unusual to walk into a situation and find two guys arguing, and mostly arguing about, "You're Kentucky, you don't know nothing. You're from the down south, what do you know? You're dumb," blah, blah, blah. They wouldn't quite 01:16:00say it like that because there'd be a fight. However, it was like, that's where it was.

GRIMES: So, Kentucky had a stigma about it, a lot of stereotypes about it.

SMITH: Yeah. Oh, God, it did. It was loaded. Everybody knows that. (laughs) I mean, I even went there wondering, you know, what was it like? Because I always thought Daisy Mae was kind of attractive, you know? (laughs)

GRIMES: So, was--was race, or racism, in Kentucky different from other places you had been?

SMITH: Oh, that's a good question, oh. It's kind of different. It was a little more subtle than what I had experienced sometimes in Texas, a little bit more subtle. It was pretty open in Texas. (clears throat) It was more 01:17:00subdued when I got to Frankfort. But it was not unusual to be walking from Papa's farm to school in Texas, because we had to walk, the white kids could ride. They'd ride the bus and they'd make fun at us as--they passed by, [makes noises], you know, it was kind of silly stuff, and because we're walking, in the rain, whatever. Get used to it, you know, you had to do it. You had to live with it. It was Mother who was the person who said, "You--what you going to do, and you better do it," and she didn't whip us that much, but she had a look on her face that would scare you to death. But it was----it was a different, 01:18:00little bit of a different thing. But Kentucky was a little bit more subdued.

GRIMES: So, what did it feel like with all these stereotypes of Kentucky out there, of hillbillies, and not that smart, what did it mean in that moment for Kentucky to be the first state to try to pass this civil rights legislation?

SMITH: I would imagine it was very important, very significant. But I always felt, really, that Kentucky was a changing place. (clears throat) I didn't see that overt racism as much, my individual workings. Musicians are kind of different, even then. I mean, even though there may be a superiority complex, musicians seem to recognize what everybody was going through, if they 01:19:00were true musicians and they were trying to be musicians. They're trying to interpret the music. And often the times, the music they was trying to interpret was not from Kentucky, not from Texas or somewhere, it was European music. You know, it's from Germany, England, Poland, France. Those were the great musicians. They still are. (laughs) We happen to have some here, too, now, you know. But we studied them. We studied Bach, you know, and we learned that if you really want to do the right stuff, the classical stuff, you've got to do Bach, and Brahms, and Beethoven. Well, we young Blacks, we knew that, too. And we wanted to be in that class, too. You know, I always say, little did 01:20:00we know that the real music was right here in America. It was a combination of that music from Europe, and the combination of the music here, all of that beautiful stuff that we've got, shoot. Jazz? Beautiful. Beautiful stuff. Gospel music? Oh, it's great. You know, European music is wonderful. All you've got to do is open your stupid mind, and just listen, and understand how all of this is, out of all that we have, it's still so much of it is so different, yet it's so similar, yet it's so great. It's the most descriptive entity from 01:21:00God. That's the way I look at it. How can you do it? All you can do, it's like a mass. God is, like, for everybody to me. That's just the way it is. That's what music is. It doesn't matter what it is. You can sing "Ring Around the Roses" and make it sound so beautiful.

GRIMES: How did the choir sound to you on that day?

SMITH: On what?

GRIMES: On the day of the march, how did the choir sound to you?

SMITH: Lord have mercy, I can't even tell you. When I think about it, I was so concerned about them doing well. And then, you know, I learned a long time ago that, to me, that the greatest part of a--of a music, the greatest challenge that a director has is to blend the voices. When you get out there in that air, and you've got a mic here, and you got a voice here, and you got 01:22:00another voice way over here, and the mic is way away from it, there is no way you're going to blend those voices. It's just too much. So, I learned that what you have to do is, you've got to teach everybody how to blend as much as you can, and to do it. Nothing is worse than a choir that has no blend. You hear, every voice is singing, "Oh, Lord," whatever you've got there, all that stuff, it makes no sense. That's not music. (laughs) It's just a--

GRIMES: Were you satisfied with the performance?

SMITH: Oh, Lord, yes. (laughs) Oh, God. There's maybe a few times when I wasn't satisfied with my choir when I learned how to--I thought better how to teach. Because whenever the choir didn't sound good, it finally hit me, it's my fault. Yeah, sometimes you have somebody's out of line, but that doesn't happen too often. That didn't happen too often.

GRIMES: Could you see the crowds that day?

SMITH: Yeah. But I couldn't see them as I was, you know, when I was--

GRIMES: Right, right.

SMITH: --directing because of the back was to them. But I saw them all--all mass. It was a mess. I mean, it was--what a day. What a day, my gosh. What a day. And it was kind of like a, you know, the feeling that this one man here can stand up here and get so many people involved, and he's one of us, you know? I--as a young kid. I hadn't seen no Black man in front of people, in Texas. Farm boy. And that wasn't me. That wasn't what I--what I recognized.

GRIMES: Were you able to stay the whole day, the whole time at the march or?

SMITH: Oh, God, I was there until almost--I stayed there a long time, but you know, people started leaving, and so, I left. I don't even know if I 01:24:00walked back up on campus or if I rode. I can't remember. I'm sure I rode down there, but I don't know [if] we even had a bus, I can't remember all of that. That wasn't the important thing, you know. The important thing was Martin Luther King was there. And--and I wouldn't miss it for nothing in the world.

GRIMES: Do you remember talking to anybody about it afterwards or?

SMITH: Oh, God. We talked about it all the time. (laughs) It was a great day. I mean, we knew it was. We were walking around smiling. We knew how happy it was, it was super.

GRIMES: Did you call your mom, your grandmother?

SMITH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But, they saw it on TV, too. I think they did. I think it was televised, wasn't it? You know, I don't know. I come to think about that. But most of his speeches were televised. I mean, he was [a] hot number. I mean, he was--was going. He was something else.

GRIMES: What was the role of protest in bringing about change?

SMITH: What was the what?

GRIMES: The role of protest.

SMITH: Protest. Well, I mean, it was significant. And it involved--it involved so much, I mean, so many things. And, you know, there was just a lot to be done. But I think they realized that it had to come from the top, not from here out. I mean, certainly some from here could be helpful, but people who were in the spotlight, we had to choose the right folk to be in those positions. And, you know, one of the presidents that, to me, that is not mentioned as much as they should be is Lyndon Baines Johnson. I just felt like he did more for 01:26:00education for Blacks and--and the idea of togetherness among all peoples than anybody could imagine. Of course, he followed--one of my main presidents, John F. Kennedy. Because my other main president is Obama. And--

GRIMES: What was the role of youth--

SMITH: --role of who?--

GRIMES: --the role of the youth during the protest?

SMITH: The youth? Well, what happened at the university campuses, Black kids were very involved. They did a lot of sitting in, and that is one of the most significant things, that sit in. That--that was really something. Because the kids showed--patience, showed understanding, and they showed 01:27:00sincerity, sitting in and with people throwing stuff at you and throwing stuff on you, and being pushed around, and you're sitting there and taking it, was that something like Gandhi, was it Gandhi that kind of did some of that stuff, too? And like some of the other great leaders. But I always wondered how many of them did what they did, because [when] I was younger, sometimes I was kind of a hothead, but I didn't fight a lot because I felt like everybody could beat me but, you know, but I'd fight if I had to, because I had several brothers. First five of us were--were boys, me and my family, were boys. And we were taught to use our heads and be safe. But sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in. So, we always tried to avoid it, I think. I had one brother though it didn't matter, he didn't care how big you were. And he's the 01:28:00smallest one. He'd fight you, you know.

GRIMES: How do the protests of today differ from the protests of the sixties? Or how are they similar?

SMITH: I think they--they approached differently. I think it's very much more political now. You know, we still believe in--in numbers. We still believe in marching for a cause, they--people today, and they still do it. Sometimes I wonder if it's any good or not. And I mean, looking at George Floyd's case, and some of those things, I mean, you know, it's kind of sickening, it's kind of sad, but hopefully, we'll begin to make some changes, I pray. But 01:29:00it's just--they're not afraid anymore, you know? We used to be afraid. They used to be afraid for people. We used to think, "Golly," you know, "You don't want to be there at night. You don't want to go over there." Not today. These young people go wherever they want to go, do whatever they want to do.

GRIMES: Do any women stand out to you in civil rights activism during that time, the 1960s, here in Frankfort?

SMITH: I can't think of a whole lot of them. I thought there was one teacher on campus who used to preach a little bit, and they were a little bit afraid of her going too far. But that probably happened everywhere, that kind of 01:30:00thing. But I can't think of anyone who was just--I'm--think, who was out there? One of the women out from--out in California, she was pretty--what was her name?

GRIFFITH: Angela Davis? Angela Davis?

SMITH: Angela Davis. That lady was tough.

GRIMES: Right.

SMITH: She was tough.

GRIMES: Anybody local at all?

SMITH: I don't know anyone. (laughs) I don't know of anybody who was local.

GRIMES: Do you remember Georgia Davis Powers?

SMITH: Oh, sure. Georgia was, yeah. Georgia spoke out at the--yeah.

GRIMES: Did you know her personally or--

SMITH: No. I didn't know her personally. She had--wrote a book, didn't she, later on, or something? I don't think she should have written it. Who am I to say?

GRIMES: So, the bill actually passes in 1966. Do you remember that at all?

SMITH: The Civil Rights Bill?

GRIMES: Yes.

SMITH: Yeah, I remember it. And--I thought it was wonderful that it 01:31:00passed. It was so late, though. It should have passed so much earlier. What they you need it for, anyway? However, we did need it. You know, the thing here is that all of this--all of this is so confusing. I mean, (clears throat) there's a book out and they call it, what is it, 1619, the latest book, which is the first--date of the slaves coming to this country, and everything about it, but there was also something else about that, 1619 book that--that she's written. That was the--let's see, what else, what else was that connected with, 1619? Oh, that was the real reason for the Civil War. Slavery. (laughs) We 01:32:00forget about that. Slavery. Killing each other, white folks killing each other, in the same state. You live over here, John, and I live over there, man, so we gonna kill each other. Why? "I believe in slavery. " "I don't believe in slavery." "I believe in slavery." (??)--Everyone was killing everybody. (laughs) There's some crazy people. It's so silly, so much of it is. --And I never really think about that too much, about--I just think about the Civil Rights--I mean the Civil War, what was it all about? And this was nothing about--it's just slavery. White slaving. The same reason we have fights to the day. Money. That's the thing we've got understand, money is not everything. I mean, sure, it's important to have and all that. Why can't the Republicans and the Democrats get along together? Why can't they do it today? I mean, what, all these 01:33:00people with all this money, what are they going to do with it? (laughs) --You cannot take it with you. Some of you have so much, there is not a place in the ground for you to put it, you've got so much. Where are you going to take it for? I ain't worry about it. I mean, Jesus.

GRIMES: How do you talk to your grandchildren about the importance of the March on Frankfort, or racial situations today that take place in America?

SMITH: Well, you know, I spend more time speaking to them about kindness. I try to. Because that, to me, is so much more important. And to tell you the truth about it, one of my children, grandchildren, is at the point where I--she never thinks about any of that kind of stuff. She has friends both, Black 01:34:00and white, and that's--that's just where it is. What she thinks about is keeping those grades up. And she wants to go to college. And she wants to go into medicine. And, you know, there ain't no Black blood and white blood, it's all blood. And she knows this, so she doesn't even think about these things. I talk about it, and she'll listen, and she'll say, "I don't know." One day she said, "Papa, you know, that sounds so stupid." Now, I mean, I'm you know, sitting, thinking, "I guess it does." But that's the way it was. It really was stupid. I mean, it was just crazy. When I went in the military, I had 01:35:00friends, we were all together, same barracks and all that stuff, and all of it. And I had one guy in there from California, Mike, I can't think of Mike's last name, now. Mike and I used to hang out together. Mike used to read books all the time, and we'd talk and carry on and--and just like men, you know, talking about how sad it is we're supposed to be here to ever see any girls or nothing, we just out here. And Mike could not get along with boys from the South. We had a couple of guys there from Mississippi, two or three boys from Arkansas, he could see them to get along with everybody else. Mike was this kind of tall, blond-haired guy, very sharp, very smart. Every time you'd see him, 01:36:00he had a book and he's reading something, every break we had. He played drums. I was a band director. I mean, I was--I was a bugle--bugle band and percussion director in my regiment. --I always had it made. I was lucky when I was in the military. I hate being a soldier. What do I look like shooting somebody? I mean, Lord, I prayed I would never have to shoot another man. But--Mike would be in a fight with somebody every day. It's not physical. But, one time, he had one physical fight and I saw him fight and I said--I broke them up. I said--me and my buddy, we broke them up because they were about to go at it. And I looked at Mike and I could tell; Mike hadn't had a fight in his life. He was going to get creamed by that boy. This white boy. But it just bothered him because he'd always say, "Why are these people from Mississippi so dumb?" And I 01:37:00mean he would get away--he couldn't understand it, "Why are they so stupid?" I said, "Mike, man, hey, you're a smart guy. These people are not smart like you. God didn't give them what you got, so you can't just." He goes, "Yeah, but they don't have to be that stupid." And he'd say things--we're in our section playing cards or something, he'd end up saying something every time and it would turn everybody off, and I'd be saying, "Here we go again." You know, people don't always understand where you're from, and you've got to learn, more than anything else, to adjust to whomever you are with. And I think about teachers, I think about what they have to go through, when they're dealing with this kind of a situation. But it's life. It's real life, when you in the military 01:38:00and you're around people like that.

GRIMES: Feel like there's anything I have not asked you about?

SMITH: I don't think so. (laughs) Well, I can't think of anything. All I can say is that this is my home, in this beautiful state of Kentucky. And I have a lot of friends here, most of my family is still here. And I can't think of any greater place to live. My church across the street there, friends in the community, it's just like anyplace else.

GRIMES: Would you like to leave us with a song?

SMITH: Oh, heck no. (laughs)

GRIMES: No?

HAY: Please?

SMITH: My singing days are over. (laughs)

HAY: Could you sing, maybe, a little line from one of the--either a song that the marchers might have been singing, or a song that--that represents that day, like, "We Shall Overcome," or one of the songs of the choir, just a line for us?

SMITH: Let's see. [Humming and singing] buried in my grave. I haven't sung those songs in so long; I've forgotten some of the words.

GRIMES: And before I'll be a slave--

SMITH: --yeah, and before I'll be a slave, I'd be buried in my grave, and go home--and be free, [singing] something like that, yeah. I don't know.

HAY: That's beautiful.

SMITH: I used to--I used to sing so much, but I don't--I hardly have 01:40:00anything. I hardly have anything. You know, I don't--you guys might not know, but I have difficulty hearing, and it was because [of] the military. I was hurt in the military from firing the forty recorder's weapon, the big one, and I got the tanks, you know, boom! It had a big back blast to it. And that what happened--with a lot of soldiers during the time that I was in, we have--our biggest problem is hearing because of the back blast of those things, they just messed up our ears. Now, we begun to get better hearing aids. I wear hearing aids, because of that. And particularly the left side, because I would shoot like this. Even though I'm right-handed, I'd fire it this way because I couldn't close this eye, but I can close this one. So, which way I could see with my weapon, the forty recorder's weapon, that I could see. And when that thing shot, this was in '56, ever since 1956, this ear, here, sings constantly. 01:41:00It's like being out in the forest at night, nobody's out there, you just hear something [makes a whistling noise]. That's what it--sounds--I get that. Have to learn to live with it. Now, you can hear this little hearing thing sticking out? Well, that's what they are. So, that's my gift from the military. But I'm not the only one. There are a lot of guys that are worse off than me.

GRIMES: Do you remember a little bit of "We Shall Overcome?"

SMITH: Oh, sure. We shall overcome, we shall overcome, we shall overcome someday. [singing] That one? Oh, deep in my heart, I do believe we 01:42:00shall overcome someday. [singing] We used to sing that all the time.

GRIMES: Beautiful. Thank you.

SMITH: Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

[End of interview.]