Interview with Karen Montgomery Williams, December 7, 2021

GRIMES: My name is Le Datta Denise Grimes, and today is December seventh, 2021, and I am here in the home of Lawrence Montgomery on Grand Avenue in Louisville, Kentucky. And today, I'm speaking with Karen--

WILLIAMS: Montgomery.

GRIMES: --Montgomery Williams, the daughter of Mr. Lawrence Montgomery, and the niece of Senator Georgia Davis Powers. How are you doing?

WILLIAMS: I'm good. How are you?

GRIMES: Doing really good. Really good. So, we just spoke with your father about his life, attending the March on Frankfort, his sister, Senator Georgia Davis Powers. And I wanted to know who she was in your life, and who your father was.

WILLIAMS: Well, she was a very great inspiration, as my dad was. Like I said, my dad always said, you know, "If you take care of your job, it'll you take care of you. You know, always do the right thing. Be positive." You know, it 00:01:00was just always positive vibes that we got from them. And they showed us, actually, also. So, you know, Aunt Georgia was great. She tried to get me into politics, but I just did not want to get into politics. So--but I helped her with her campaigns. I helped her door to door. You know, whatever it is I could do, phone banks. So--

GRIMES: Um-hmm. So, what did she try to get you to go into? What specific area or office was she trying to--

WILLIAMS: It wasn't any particular office, it's just the politics of it. You know, it's just like get in there. Help the people. I'm like, "I'll help them another way." But I just never--I think I always felt politics as a give and a take, you know. So, I always thought of myself as one that was very 00:02:00staunch on what it was that I wanted or what I wanted to do. I didn't know if I would be able to do that kind of give and take. So, I just wasn't interested in politics.

GRIMES: Um-hmm. Let's go back just a little bit. So, who were your parents?

WILLIAMS: Lawrence and Violet Montgomery.

GRIMES: Who were your siblings?

WILLIAMS: Larry Junior, Lawrence Junior. We call him Larry. My sister's Linda.

GRIMES: And where did you grow up?

WILLIAMS: I grew up in--on Grand Avenue in Louisville, Kentucky.

GRIMES: Who was your babysitter?

WILLIAMS: Muhammed Ali and his brother, Rudy.

GRIMES: Talk to me about them and what that was like.

WILLIAMS: Well, I guess I was about four or five, so what I actually remember is that it seemed like my parents always had to have bologna around, that we couldn't watch anything on television, except boxing. A lot of times, I think my parents had a--they were on a bowling league or something, and it might've been a Saturday night. So, Saturday night fights came on, so we had to sit 00:03:00down, be quiet, no talking when the fights were on, and ate bologna sandwiches.

GRIMES: Hmm. Do you remember Muhammed Ali at all?

WILLIAMS: Do I remember him?

GRIMES: Um-hm.

WILLIAMS: As young? When I was young or now?

GRIMES: Either way.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah, of course, yeah.

GRIMES: What stood out about him to you?

WILLIAMS: Loud.

GRIMES: Really?

WILLIAMS: Yes. Fun, crazy kind of guy. You know, when he came home, he didn't really want to talk about fighting or anything. He wanted to show the kids magic tricks and card tricks, and tell jokes. And, you know, he wasn't about the fighting game then. It was just about being home. He enjoyed coming come. My dad said earlier--I don't know why it always happened two, three, four o'clock in the morning, but that's when he decided he wanted to knock on their door. And of course, when he knocked on their door, he had them call us, my sister, my brother, and myself, and we'd get our kids together, and we'd all 00:04:00come down and just talk until the morning. It was fun.

GRIMES: Really? What'd you feel or what did you think when you saw him out in the world, being the heavyweight champion of the world?

WILLIAMS: Oh, I thought it was great. And him being here, right here in Louisville, and to have known him personally, that's one of the things that I really like to tell people if we get into it. Like, you know, Muhammed Ali's my babysitter. "No, he wasn't". Yes, he was.

GRIMES: Wow.

WILLIAMS: Yes, he was.

GRIMES: What about his brother? What do you remember about him?

WILLIAMS: Oh, I remember Rudolph. He was--just as loud as Cassius was. You know, he was--yeah, he was just Rudolph. They were just both fun-loving guys, you know? And they both--even Rudolph and he loved watching the fight game, also.

GRIMES: Hmm. How was he as a babysitter? Was he a harsh babysitter? Was he fun, or was he--

WILLIAMS: No, no, he was fun. He was fun. Like I say, he'd make us sit down and watch the fights, but it wasn't anything that we'd get upset about. 00:05:00You know? But no, he wasn't harsh at all.

GRIMES: Hmm. So, do you remember when he went off into the world or when he first started traveling and fighting and left here or?

WILLIAMS: Well, I'll say not really.

GRIMES: Okay.

WILLIAMS: I do remember when the parents--when they moved off--Graham, when they moved away from us next door, and you know, being sad that they were gone. But--

GRIMES: How much older than you was he?

WILLIAMS: I guess I might've been about--when was Ali born? I don't know. I don't know. I guess I was probably ten, twelve years younger than him.

GRIMES: So, let's get back to your aunt. Who was she to you?

WILLIAMS: She was my Aunt Georgia. And all the while, coming up, 00:06:00people kept saying, "We kept telling your momma to name you Georgia. You look like Georgia. You talk like Georgia. You act like Georgia." But, she named me Karen, but you know, she was my aunt. You know, I was proud of her, first female, first Black, you know, in the Kentucky senate, you know. She--she set a goal for herself, and she attained it. And, you know, what she did, as far as getting the bills and the laws passed, and accommodations, and trying to do what she could do for women and kids, as a matter of fact, right now, today, I had just got some information together, trying to send off a packet of information, so that--in the Louisville area, we have pictures of, I guess, great Louisvillians, up on the walls, up on the buildings, and trying to get a picture of her up on the--up on the building. Because I think she deserves it. She really does.

GRIMES: Um-hmm. So, what is your fondest memory of her?

WILLIAMS: My fondest memory of Aunt Georgia--I don't know. I mean, you know, all my aunts were loving. They all loved me. I all loved them. I know what Aunt Georgia had done later on in life, but it was like she's my auntie. You know, I love her, just like I love my aunts. So, you know, I guess the fondest memory would be, I don't know, I guess working with her on her campaigns, and as I got older--.

GRIMES: What specifically would you do?

WILLIAMS: The phone banks, call the phone banks. I (lauhgs)--I would go door to door with flyers. You know, just whatever she needed me to help her to do.

GRIMES: Now, your mom was saying that she was a great family person--

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRIMES: --and that she would plan these big get-togethers. Do you remember that at all?

WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes.

GRIMES: What do you remember about it?

WILLIAMS: I just remember going to her home, all these great decorations, food, you know, family. It was mostly family, and just--we just had a nice time, a good time. Later on, I think we started coming here, you know, as she got older. And so, we had quite a few Christmases here, also, and Thanksgivings.

GRIMES: Do you remember what any of her favorite things were, or any hobbies she might've had, or--

WILLIAMS: Well, I know she loved scarves.

GRIMES: Oh!

WILLIAMS: She had all kind of different scarves. When she passed away, we just had a box full. As far as anything to do to relax or anything like that, I don't know. She was always busy. You know, I always saw her as being busy. 00:09:00Anything that she did, it had something to do with helping the community or you know, trying to make things better for people. So, you know, that's what I know about my Aunt Georgia.

GRIMES: What about her restaurant?

WILLIAMS: Oh, we loved her restaurant. It was called the Senators. There was--around the corner of 28th and Greenwood. There was a laundromat. I think it was called Senator's laundromat. And my dad made me work in there, which, ugh, but anyway--but right next door to it was Senators restaurant. They had this hamburger called the senator burger. Now, what was special about the senator burger was the sauce, but nobody ever knew what the sauce was because her husband, Jim Powers, is the one that made this sauce. So, nobody ever found out what the sauce was, but it was great, and everybody loved those burgers. But they had other things, you know, French fries and sodas. They 00:10:00used to have a drink called Around the World, and that was just every soda that they had, a little bit in it. And everybody loved Around the Worlds, so, yeah, and transparent pie. She had transparent pies. The first time I'd ever heard of transparent pie. Yeah, so--

GRIMES: Kind of like a pecan pie without the pecans?

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: Is it that one?

WILLIAMS: No. It's a sweet flavor to it, but it's like a--well, like you say, I guess it would be--it would look like a pecan pie without the pecans, but it didn't have that taste. It was just a whole different taste.

GRIMES: So, how long was the restaurant there?

WILLIAMS: I guess the restaurant was there--let me see. It was there as long as I was at the--I don't know. I would say maybe nine, ten years. Might've even been longer than that. I--I don't remember.

GRIMES: Now, you were saying that your Aunt Georgia shared that--her 00:11:00history with you all. What was she sharing with you? What did she want you to know, and why do think she wanted you to know that?

WILLIAMS: She wanted us to know about segregation. She wanted us to know about discrimination. She wanted us to know about racism. You know, and she would talk to us about those things. I--she had my cousin Janet and myself. She got us--we would go to the capitol during the summers, and work as pages. So, you know, we learned a lot of things there. You know, she just talked--talked to us about real world things. You know--

GRIMES: She ever talk about Dr. King to you?

WILLIAMS: Not really.

GRIMES: Okay. Did you ever get to meet--

WILLIAMS: She marched with Dr. King, you know. But, we all know that.

GRIMES: Did you ever get to meet him or any--

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: --of the civil rights leaders?

WILLIAMS: --No.

GRIMES: Okay.

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: So, did you attend the March on Frankfort at all?

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: Okay. Okay. Where'd you go to school?

WILLIAMS: Central High.

GRIMES: That's where you graduated from?

WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

GRIMES: And what do you do now?

WILLIAMS: I--I'm the manager of my dad's funeral home. I have the Land Clark Funeral Home. I retired in 2010 from the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office as a lieutenant. I was also working at the funeral home at the time in 1995. I got my embalmers license. So, I was working there part time. And when I retired in 2010, I went to the funeral home full-time. So, now, I manage the funeral home.

GRIMES: You have children?

WILLIAMS: Yes, I do.

GRIMES: Who--who are they?

WILLIAMS: Well, I have two daughters, Angela Joy, and I have a daughter, April. She passed in 2017. She was forty years old. That kind of hit the 00:13:00family hard. But, you know, we've kind of pushed through, persevered through. She loved being at home, so I had a service for her, and I had her cremated. So, there's a necklace that shows her cremations. I mean, and I always have her with me. I'm sixty-six years old. About six months ago, I went and got a tattoo with her name on here because the days that I would leave her necklace at home, I felt bad, because she always liked being with me. So, I got a tattoo. That way, I'll always have her with me. So--

GRIMES: That's beautiful.

WILLIAMS: But yeah.

GRIMES: Anything else you want to share about your aunt, or growing up on Grand Avenue, or--

WILLIAMS: Growing up on Grand was fun. I know you asked my dad about the day--the--

GRIMES: Muhammed Ali.

WILLIAMS: --Muhammed Ali's funeral service and processional that came through here. That was the most beautiful day in a while. I mean, there was a 00:14:00lot of people out here. But it was all for him. Okay? They were singing. They were--they were dancing. As my dad said, the driveway--his driveway, the one next door, everything was just full with trucks, news trucks and things. They were up on the roof of the house. And people would come by, like the mayor, and he'd come in and talk to dad. And there was another boxer. I can't think of his name right now, but he came in, and he talked to them, you know. My dad gave a lot of interviews. He gives a lot of interviews. But that day was a good day. And when that processional pulled through here, it was beautiful. It really was. The guys--Will Smith and the other pallbearers, they all had their windows down. They were letting people touch them. And I mean, you know, it was 00:15:00just a glorious day. It really was.

GRIMES: Wow. Did you all attend his homegoing service?

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: Okay.

WILLIAMS: No. We watched it on TV.

GRIMES: What happened--or how did you feel when you found out he passed?

WILLIAMS: Well, I'm kind of like my dad on that--that side. I don't know if it's because I'm in the death business. But when--especially if people have suffered for a while, you know, I feel like your spirit's gone. You're at peace. You're at rest. You know, God bless you. I'll see you on the other side. You know, I mean, I felt bad that he had passed, but you know, it's like thy will be done.

GRIMES: Um-hmm. Hmm. Did you know his children?

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: Oh, okay.

WILLIAMS: No. He talked about them, but I never actually met them. I remember, one time, up on the laundromat lot, he had an RV. And he brought the 00:16:00RV, because like I say, he would just show up. This was during the day, though. And all the kids ran over, and he'd play with the kids and signed autographs. And I think he had a couple of his children with him then. But other than that, no.

GRIMES: Okay. Did you--did you know Mae Street Kidd at all?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRIMES: You did? Do you remember anything about her? Did you--how did you meet her? Or did you meet her with your aunt?

WILLIAMS: I met her through my Aunt Georgia. Like my dad says, she was--she didn't mind telling you what she wanted to say. You know, she'd get it out. But she was a very nice person, also.

GRIMES: Anything else I should ask you about your aunt, about Muhammed Ali, Grand Avenue?

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: Life in Louisville?

WILLIAMS: I can't think I--not that I can think of.

HAY: On the wall in your dad's den is that timeline, the photographs that--of him at the March on Frankfort. You've probably seen those photographs 00:17:00most of your life. Can you talk about what the March on Frankfort meant to your dad and your aunt?

WILLIAMS: I think--

HAY: What you've remembered about the march?

WILLIAMS: Well, as far as my aunt, I know that she was proud to be a part of it, that, you know, she was one of the ones that started it. She was--for the purposes she was doing it for, for the accommodations, I'm sure that she was proud to be a part of that, and then to have Dr. King there, Jackie Robinson there. And like I say, she leaned on her brothers a lot, you know. They helped her, as far as getting her back and forth to Frankfort, and just kind of watching out for her. So--

GRIMES: You were saying they served as protectors?

WILLIAMS: Yeah. They didn't see themselves as protectors, but they were. She was the only girl. I mean, I think she spoiled them, all of them. And you 00:18:00know, she wasn't the one that was spoiled by being the girl. She spoiled all the boys, to tell you the truth. So--

GRIMES: Are any of your uncles still living?

WILLIAMS: One, Phillip--Philip Senior. Yes. My dad has lost--there was nine of them, six brothers and a sister. So, it's two left, my dad and my Uncle Phil.

GRIMES: What do you remember about your grandparents?

WILLIAMS: Well, I actually remember a lot. They were very loving. (laughs) One thing--I didn't realize my grandfather was white until I was like thirty-two years old.

GRIMES: Really?

WILLIAMS: Exactly. I just thought he was a fair-skinned Black person because I've always been fair skinned, you know. So, I did not know he was white. But they were loving towards each other. Never heard a cross word. My 00:19:00grandmother cooked all the time. Loved her cooking. You know, us as kids, being so close, just in and out of their house. You know, just as grandkids do.

GRIMES: Now, were they still on this block when you were growing up?

WILLIAMS: Yes.

GRIMES: Wow.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.

GRIMES: Wow.

WILLIAMS: Oh, yeah.

GRIMES: So, did they ever talk about what it was like to be in an interracial relationship? Or I guess not because you didn't know he was white.

WILLIAMS: No, because I didn't even know. Yeah as I said--

GRIMES: How did you find out?

WILLIAMS: How did I find out? When I found out, I was floored, though. I can tell you that much. Because I just didn't--I didn't see it. I saw my grandfather had straight hair, you know, straight, silver hair, and then it got to be white hair. You know, and he was light--he's, like I said, light-skinned. I just thought he was a light-skinned African American. So, I tell you the truth, I don't even remember how I found out. But when I did, I was like, why 00:20:00did I not know that?

GRIMES: Wow.

WILLIAMS: But I didn't.

GRIMES: So, y'all never addressed it?

WILLIAMS: No. No.

GRIMES: Did you ask your dad about it when you found out?

WILLIAMS: No. No, I really didn't. I mean, it was just like, okay. You know, because I've heard that story that he told about him being the enameller at standard, and how the other employees were, you know, upset when they found out that he was married to--had a Black family, you know, and that the boss had told them, either back off from him, or you're walking quick. But he's the best enameller we have. So, I really don't think he had anymore problems with that. But as far as him even being in this neighborhood, maybe--other people didn't realize he was white. I don't know.

GRIMES: Wow.

WILLIAMS: I don't know.

GRIMES: Your aunt--

WILLIAMS: But it was never an issue.

GRIMES: Your aunt actually told me that story.

WILLIAMS: She did?

GRIMES: Um-hm. I used to be a reporter at The Lexington Herald-Leader and she shared that.

WILLIAMS: Okay.

GRIMES: I got to sit down and spend a day with her in her penthouse--

WILLIAMS: Okay. Yeah.

GRIMES: --and hang out with her. And she shared that story with me, as well, so.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. Okay.

GRIMES: Anything you feel like I've not asked you? And thank you for sitting down with us so much.

WILLIAMS: Oh, no problem. Okay. Wasn't expecting it, but okay.

HAY: Now, when you said that Georgia--your Aunt Georgia started the March on Frankfort, what did you mean by that?

WILLIAMS: Well, I meant she was one of the organizers. Okay? Trying to make sure that Dr. King, Jackie Robinson--and I'm sure Ralph (??) was involved, and you know, just to have that to happen, you know.

GRIMES: Do you remember how--how your life changed after that bill was passed in '66?

WILLIAMS: No.

GRIMES: So, you don't remember what it was like when you could go to certain restaurants, and stores, and parks, and--

WILLIAMS: No, because, to tell you the truth, it was a while before I figured out there was any place other than the West end in Louisville, Kentucky, okay, because we did everything here in the West end. We had movies. We had 00:22:00restaurants. We had the grocery store. We had the bank. We had the schools. I mean, there was no need to go outside of here, you know. And then, I think--I can't remember when it was, but then, I started hearing the things about the Woolworths store, up on Fourth Street, where they had the sit-in at the Woolworths store. You know, and I probably was a teenager then, thirteen--twelve or thirteen years old, or something like that. So, I think that's probably the first inkling I got about as far as segregation and Blacks not being allowed here or there. You know, even when I went to Century, it was segregated by then. So, you know--

GRIMES: It was segregated or desegregated?

WILLIAMS: It was desegregated. I'm sorry.

GRIMES: Got you.

WILLIAMS: --It was desegregated--

HAY: It's so different from a small town, wouldn't it? Because Louisville's a big city and--

WILLIAMS: It's a big city. Exactly.

HAY: --So, this was like a big city--

WILLIAMS: But this seems like a small town. It's--you know, this was it. You know.

HAY: Were there white families here, in addition to Black families, when you were growing up?

WILLIAMS: I don't remember any being on Grand. I don't remember any being on Grand.

HAY: Because your dad talked about the white funeral home that was in the neighborhood.

WILLIAMS: The Owens. That was up at--yeah--

GRIMES: It was in--that was, oh. That was somewhere else.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. Well, it was about maybe four blocks east.

HAY: So, there were white families around--

WILLIAMS: Yeah, there were.

HAY: --like that when he was younger.

WILLIAMS: Okay. Yes.

HAY: --There was a shift.

WILLIAMS: There was a shift. I remember them talking about the white families on the parkway, on Southwestern Parkway. They had some really pretty homes right across from the park. But when the Blacks started moving in, they moved out. So--but you know, I don't remember them being down there. You know. But yeah.

HAY: I'm going to pause.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I was just saying that one of the role models--Aunt Georgia was a role model. But I know that she was in a position that most white males were in. So, when I took to the--I worked at the post office for a 00:24:00while. But they kept telling my daddy on me every time I did something I wasn't supposed to do. (laughs) So, I'm like, I'm not going to work here anymore. So, I went to--I had an uncle that worked at the sheriff's office. He said, "Karen, go to the sheriff's office. Put an application in." I'm like, "No, I don't want to go." So I'm like, okay. So I went to the sheriff's office. I put the application in. At the times, they were wearing green jackets, just hanging out in court and making sure everybody doing what they're supposed to do. Well, six months later, they got a new sheriff. He decided to put everybody in uniforms, give them guns, teach them how to use them. I never shot a gun in my life. I said, "No, I don't want to do this." But I pursued it. So I actually--like I said, I retired as a lieutenant, but I had 150, 200 people that were under me, most of them white males, you know. So, it didn't take much time, but they came to--they 00:25:00knew I was a fair person. They didn't like it at first, you know, but they knew I was a fair person, that I would listen to everybody and do what needed to be done. So, you know, that's a male-dominant role. And then, the funeral home, they're like, how do you--how can you do that, you know? Well, actually, my parents asked me to sit on the board. I'm like, okay, I can do that. Because I had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the funeral home until I was like forty. I said I'll sit on the board. Then, I decided to get my funeral director's license, where I could hold funerals, or you know, be available for funerals, and visitations, and things like that. Then, I decided to go to embalming school and got my embalmer's license, started embalming. I really liked the embalming side because it's nice and quiet, and you know, you just take your time. But you know, generally, another male-dominant role. So, you know, she did influence me that way.

HAY: In one generation. Think about that.

WILLIAMS: Exactly.

HAY: What she did and what you've done.

WILLIAMS: Well, yeah. One generation. That's right.

GRIMES: Awesome. You got it?

HAY: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: Okay. I was trying to hold it.

[End of interview.]