Interview with Sonia Sanders, February 14, 2022

JAY WELLS: Hello. My name is Jay Wells. I'm an assistant professor of writing, rhetoric and digital studies at the University of Kentucky. I am also an affiliate faculty member of the African American and Africana Studies Program. Today is February 14th, 2022, and it is my pleasure to be here with Sonia Sanders as a as a part of the Black Women and Bourbon Oral History Project, which is funded by the United in True Racial Equity (UNITE) Research Initiative. Thank you so much for joining me today. I would like to start by hearing about your family background.

SONIA SANDERS: Well, my family background comes from several of my uncles and my grandfather's. So, my grandfather, we were I'm originally from Kentucky. I've been raised here all my life in the western part of Kentucky. And so, my background comes from the western part, which is Hopkins County, Madisonville, and I grew up there as a little girl. And, you know, we all kind of fend for 00:01:00ourselves back then. And when we played outside and, and things like that. We just kind of did things of the earth. So, we played in the trees, in the grape vines and then them in ponds and things like that. And so, you know, you would always go out in the woods, and play hide and seek, stuff that you'd always trip up on, some things maybe as a little girl or child that you wouldn't see as in steals and things, people hunting and things like that. So, when you when you grow up like that, you just kind of look for things to be mysterious about. So that's kind of how I grew up. You grow, you go outside, you run around, and you see something that you're not supposed to be seeing. Then you go investigate.

WELLS: What was one of your favorite things to investigate?

SANDERS: Well, you know, at first it was you know, it was all about fishing in 00:02:00the ponds. We'd go out fishing in the ponds and then, you know, we made our own string and those kind of things, and that was good. The one of the things we used to get in trouble about a lot was messing with the grape vines because grape vines were, you know, you get in those get in those berries and stuff and then you track it back in the house and you get in trouble. But any time we saw smoke, there's an old saying this, where there's smoke, there's fire in town. You know, little kids are not supposed to do that. So you play around the smoke in the fog, you see smoke coming near. You think, "oh, no, it's Indians." That was the first thing we used to always say, "It's Indians," and we used to see the smoke. But that's not what it was. It was either one or two things. Somebody burning woods out in the back. A lot of we lived around, a lot of farmland where there were I was raised on a hog farm. So, a lot of times they had the fires in the barrel and then we'd go behind houses and then that's when we would see 00:03:00smoke coming out of little buildings. And then you'd wait until the adults went in so you could sneak and see what it was. And it was something that we probably shouldn't have been into, but we did. That's kind of how I got into knowing what alcohol really smelled like.

WELLS: Oh, okay. Okay. So you said that you were children of the earth. You're playing outside all the time. Tell me, because I'm fairly new to Kentucky, did it snow this much when you were younger or, you know, what, what was the weather like when you were playing outside?

SANDERS: Well, the snow when I was growing up was a lot thicker, a lot more of it and, and a lot prettier. You know, we were always told, you know, you get one snow, it was a dusting snow. And then the second snow come along and it would be packed. And then that's when people would go out, make it snow cream. Now, I had my fill of snow cream. I only had to have it one time because you had to be 00:04:00careful. You, you only got the good snow to make snow cream out of. And so winters were a whole lot different. I can remember my mother walking me to school because you walked to school a lot and there weren't any busses. You didn't call off school, you just went to school no matter what the weather was. And I, me and my mother would walk and, and I remember I got so cold and the snow was so deep one time. And of course, I was little then. So, you know, snow could have only been four foot tall. I thought it was 20 foot tall. I remember, I remember her and I walking to school, which actually when I think about from where my old, I was just at my homestead not too long ago, when I think about where that is, that was probably like three months. But I remember her and I walking in the snow and her looking down at me and my face was red. And my mother actually picked me up about a mile and a half into the walk to school 00:05:00that day and actually carried me in that snow all the way to school. And those are fond memories. I don't have my mom with me now, but I think about, you know, it was all about getting you to school. You had to go to school. It didn't make any difference what it was. Yeah.

WELLS: Okay. So your family really instilled the value of education early on?

SANDERS: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember when I was, when I graduated from high school, I was like, you know what? I think I'm just going to get a job. And, you know, and I think I'm just going to, you know, I could make, gosh, what was minimum wage back then? Probably, probably somewhere between $1.85 and $2 an hour. Now, I'm telling my age, and she was like, "no, you're going to school. I don't care what you do, what you need to do, go to school, you're going to school," so.

WELLS: Hmm. Okay. Tell me a little bit more about your parents, because you mentioned your uncles as well. What did your parents do where they working on 00:06:00the hog farm?

SANDERS: Well, let me say this. That was my great grandmother that worked. I was raised by my great grandmother.

WELLS: --okay--

SANDERS: And I was raised by my, I stayed with her the majority of the time, stay with my grandmother some. So I was a single child. And so that my background goes back to I was raised by a single mom. And at the time that's kind of unheard of in that day. But so she would take me my great grandmother's and we would stay there. My great grandmother was the, she raised chickens. She had a hog farm, and that's how we ate. Then we kind of progressed a little bit. We were able to get into a house that had electricity, no plumbing, but electricity. But then she had, you know, made enough money to, to do what she would call her kind of retirement. And then my mom was a nurse. My mom went to 00:07:00nursing school and worked at the hospital. And she just kind of had a, and so I thought I was going to grow up and be a nurse work in a hospital just like her. I wanted to be so much like my mom. And I felt like the she you know, she kind of instilled in me, you know, well, the best thing for you, you know, you're not going to make it in life if you don't get a, if you don't get an education, you know. And so, you know, that kind of matriculates, you know, you know what you're going to do. I knew I was going to have an education, didn't know what I was going to do, but it was the best thing. It was the best thing for me. She was a good mom. Yeah.

WELLS: Okay. I want to know more about because I can tell by what you're saying about your mom and your great grandmother and then just your being outside and exploring your curiosities as a kid. Like what are some of the learning 00:08:00experiences you had outside of your formal education and going to school?

SANDERS: Well, the first thing I did is not to play, I learned not to play with fire. I learned that too many times.

WELLS: --I was going to say like, there's some good stories behind that one--

SANDERS: Well, you know what? One of the stories I tell, especially at Christmas time, I was, my mom didn't have a whole lot. And she I remember getting this AM transistor radio was the only thing I got for Christmas. And we sat there and just kind of cried about it together. And I still wish I had that transistor radio because it really meant a lot to me at the time. But she would go and leave me. I was a latchkey kid after my great grandmother and my grandmother passed away. So I was a latchkey kid. And I remember one time going in the house and my mom's a nurse. Back in those days when you were a nurse, you still starched your uniforms and you starched, you know, the hats that you wore and 00:09:00everything was lily white stockings, shoes. You know, they used a shoe polish. And, and so I'm at home one day and my mom had let me join the Girl Scouts. And so we had this experiment, and I decided I was going to take, this is the honest to goodness truth. I remember it so well because it was the only, the only whooping. And people don't get those anymore. The only time my mom whipped me was when I decided to play campfire girl in the ashtray in in the house. And so and how she knew it. You know, one thing about playing with fire. The second thing was you don't lie. So I lit the, these papers in an ashtray. And I lit them and they were so thin that they blew all over the house. This is in summertime. And so I'm scrambling, trying to get these ashes or whatever you 00:10:00want to call it, out of the out of the way and get them before my mom got home. She worked the 311 shift back there. Mom comes home and she just she's smelling around. She said, "oh, my gosh, I think there's something I smell." And, and she, I go, "I don't know. I don't have a clue what you're talking about." Well, little did I know. You know, when you those papers are so thin, when you're trying to clean them up, you get soot on your fingers. So I went, you know, I after I thought I got it all cleaned up, I went running outside when she had her white uniforms hanging on the clothes lot. So I just went running outside and I probably hit a couple of them. She goes, "who's got the soot all over my white uniforms?" I said, "I don't know." And then she goes in the house and cuts on the fan. It's a nice summer day, you know, but we don't have any air conditioning. So she cuts the fan out and all this burnt paper flies around. Oh my god it's just flying around everywhere. And she said, "and who did this?" And 00:11:00I said, "I don't know. I don't know." Well, third time's a charm. And that was one of those the old saying, this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you. And that's a lie if anyone ever told it. The only whooping I ever got and I got to whip it. And on top of that didn't have to. She, she did the sweetest thing. She whipped me, and then she hugged me because she knew I was crying so bad. And I don't even remember if it hurt or not, probably hurt my feelings more than it did the pain. But that's as I can tell that story over and over again, because my mom was so mad at me because she was afraid, you know, she said you could have burned down the house. I don't know. You know, but you know, thank goodness I lived to tell it. I lived to tell that story. So that was one of the big lessons I learned. You don't play with fire. And the other thing is, is that you don't drink alcohol at the age of five. I had a stepfather that was just so it's 00:12:00unfortunate. He was a little bit, more of, an alcoholic. And, you know, it was the whiskey, what they call whiskey, then beer. That's back in the day. And I'm sitting up here looking at all the beers I drank, they're craft beers now, Fall City, Sterling. They're all craft beers now. They're bringing all that back. You know, Pabst Blue Ribbon, they're bringing all those back as craft. You know, they were buying them by the quarts. So I would go in the refrigerator, open the refrigerator right up because that my, my grandparents, my mother and grandmother and my great grandmother, they were all diabetics. So I had a choice. I could drink water, Tab or Fresca, which are horrible diet drinks, or beer. So sometimes I would choose beer, go in the refrigerator and open up that Fall City, pop that top. And then I put water back in it because my stepfather 00:13:00didn't know, because he was too drunk to know that. You know what he didn't know because it back up it was still the same color may have been wheat but yeah I, I started doing that. I was, I was about five or six years old. Mom never caught me doing that like that. And nobody, nobody, you know what? She's gone. And then now they're hearing this story. They never knew that, that I would go in there and substitute water for beer and drink it because I was a latchkey kid. So nobody ever really, you know, followed behind me. Yeah.

WELLS: You said a little bit earlier that you learned the smell of alcohol early on when, when you were younger. So, what was how did that come about?

SANDERS: Well, you know, when I was with my grandmother, we would they used to play cards all the time. But then it was that they called it. And I'm thinking 00:14:00there may have been talk or whatever it was. They'd pay quarter for quarters, dimes, nickels, up and down the street. They had different houses that they play, play cards at, and bottles were just laying around, especially at night when my grandmother would go to play cards, she'd sometimes would take me up the street with her because there were other kids in the houses, you know, we would play outside while they were stop playing cards and we'd get up on the table and we'd steal the bottles because the bottles on the floor and by the time they're drinking and stuff and we'd take them and we tried to fill them back up with water, you know, to make more alcohol, you know, you could. Smell the alcohol in the bottle as we try to make more alcohol. I'm going to sound like, like I've been alcohol. Like alcohol since I was. Yeah, about five, six years old. That's probably about true. But then, you know, I think that the other part of that was 00:15:00when we used to go out in the woods and we would see the smoke, you know, we knew that that wasn't smoke fire. It just has a smell. You know, it wasn't wood. It wasn't you know, it wasn't trees burning. It you just knew that there was something else in there. We went in, you know, after late night and stuff like that, you would go out at night and you would go inside barns and buildings and stuff at night with no fear whatsoever, you know, of getting caught or somebody, you know, I can't even imagine today walking around in the dark like that. And I just can't, you know, but you would go around in the dark and then you'd go and you see, you know, funny looking, you know, look like a tin tub with a little I guess it would, I guess all of funnels on it. You'd see, you know, the things going up into the bit. You'd see all that and it would be covered up. It may be in the same barn with the horse or the cow, but then you knew something was 00:16:00behind it. Yeah, you know, so. And then and it smell funny. It smells different.

WELLS: When you were smelling like the empty bottle, the alcohol, the like now that you have done tastings and your, which we'll talk about later, like a bourbon enthusiast, do you remember some of the scents, like some of the flavors you may have been smelling on those bottles?

SANDERS: Oh, yeah. And I remember the flavors were horrible. I don't remember. I remember saying how in the world. That's why I stuck with beer for a while because I just could not understand the, that they were so strong. And I remember, you know, we would sit there and look at the, you know, you always watch, we always watch. We have black and white television. So we would always watch the Westerns looking at the people on the Westerns. And they always drank whiskey. They drank whiskey when they were going to the hospital or they drank whiskey if they were going to a bar. Didn't make sense to me. You drank the same 00:17:00thing in both places and you sit there and watch them. And then you'd wonder, what was that? Now when I see those movies, I try to see the name on the bottle just to see now if, you know, if I if it was something, you know, in a line way back then. And I remember seeing, and I can't even remember, and it'll come to my mind in a minute, probably what the name of it was. I'll think of it as we go on down the line, as we go through the conversation, what bottle I actually saw when I was little that I see now. And, and I have to think about it for a few minutes and I can see it, but I can't call the name of it now. So. WELLS: Okay. And then there was another follow up question I wanted to ask. When you were telling you the story about how you learned not to play with fire, you said that one of the second rules was that you you're never supposed to lie. And so um, 00:18:00just personal interest, like were you also not supposed to say the word lie. Because in my family, we, my dad is from Texas and you always were told don't tell a tale, you couldn't say the word lie.

SANDERS: That's true. No, you couldn't say the word lie, at all, period. And you know what? The thing about it is, I'm not really sure why that was, because when you when you when you tell people that, you know, it's just like my children, some words sound harsh. And so I think they come across harsh. Yeah. When I was coming up with my children, I used they would be like, oh, shut up and I'd go, "oh, that's such a harsh word, so say be quiet, settle down." I won't let them say shut up.

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: So it's the same thing about, you know, oh, you're telling a lie. You know, I, I remember when even my son and my daughter said that one time I could 00:19:00hear them in the room, you know, "you're lying." I go, "hey, hey." And they look at me like, well, "she is," you know, or "he is!" That's what they're doing, you know? But it sounds harsh. It's. It's a harsh word. Yeah.

WELLS: Yeah. My grandpa will still say that to me. He'll say, "you, you little girl. You told a tale." I'm like, "Grandpa, I'm a doctor now, I can say a lie."

SANDERS: Ha, that's funny. Yeah, it is. It's amazing about words and words in general. But I was the same way about shut up. I just think shut up. So it's just not, it's just not cool to say shut up. Say be quiet. Yeah, yeah. Something like that.

WELLS: That makes sense. So you talked a little bit about elementary school and walk in there with your mom and how they didn't have nowadays or delays back then. What high? What about middle school and high school? What were those 00:20:00experiences like?

SANDERS: Well, kind of the same walk to middle school. Middle school was tough like it is for middle schoolers now. That's a change for people and people in general. I went to a middle school that was pretty it was pretty segregated. And I went to um, and when I went to high school, my high school class, I could probably count the number of blacks in my high school class on three hands. It was a very low number because the next class going in, which is a class, uh, of high school had the most. So it was just like a lag. So when I go back and think about middle school, you know, I don't remember. It's really odd. I remember a 00:21:00whole lot of things from grade school. And during my grade school years, that's when Kennedy died. That's when Martin Luther King died. And we were in school when all that was going on. And I can remember, you know, the teachers I mean, when, when those two particular, and middle school had been Malcolm X, and those two particular one, MLK and Kennedy died, I remember it was like, it was almost like the world was coming to an end. I remember they pushed us into the hallways and locked us down, made you think somebody was coming to get us and you had you had to sit in the hallways until we, we could hear the, I could hear the television. I could hear the announcements. I could hear the, you know, just the outside noise of sirens. You could hear it from the televisions and the speakers 00:22:00in the school. And we sat in the hallways and just got really, really quiet. And it really did make you think somebody was coming after us and the teachers were trying to protect us. And, um, I remember in middle, I went to middle school. It, if middle school was like, kids that have to go to middle school now. I think it's a lot tougher. I think people pick a lot more fights in middle school and they pick at you more in middle school. Pull more pranks. You know, you get a lot more personality in middle school where kids want to want you to side with other kids more so in middle school than you do now, than you do in grade school 00:23:00and high school. High school. It was good. I was. I think that's why I went into the first, I think that that was the case. That's when I went into first black female mode.

WELLS: --okay--

SANDERS: High school, I was the first black female majorette. And that was something for me.

SANDERS: We, I was at a high school that was predominantly white at the time. And so my years there was one black guy in the band and, and band was tough because it wasn't then banned. So I went into band because, you know, I wanted 00:24:00to, I play clarinet and I wanted to be a majorette. And I didn't do good at cheerleading. I just I guess it must have been now that, you know, I didn't do well with tumbles and all that. So I decided to be a majorette. I was the first black majorette in my high school, first black drum major in my high school, because it was predominantly white. And, but there was one black guy that played the drums. And by the time I got to high school and it was unpopular, just real unpopular for the black race in my school to be in the band because it was just, you know, it was a white band. They play white music, whatever that was at that time, we didn't play anything. Absolutely nothing by black artists at all. Bach, Beethoven was my, and the band director wasn't, you know? He wasn't racist. He 00:25:00was very nice guy. Mr. Murphy: I remember his name. And, and so it wasn't that then I played in the concert band, which was unusual, you know, and graduated. When I graduated high school, I was a, there probably weren't a couple. Even then, you know, segregation had already come in. The civil rights movement had already come in. And it still hadn't hit Madisonville, Kentucky, yet. You know, everybody said they were treating you fair, but we knew they weren't so.

WELLS: What did, so like, what did that look like or feel like being the first black girl majorette drum major? Like what? How did how did that show up being the first? Like, because I'm sure, like you said, it wasn't popular for blacks 00:26:00to be in the, in the band already, and then there was just one black man. And so, like, what do you remember? Like what you were feeling or like how it seemed like other people were feeling towards you?

SANDERS: I didn't have very many, I was probably, probably only had a small circle of friends. You know, even when you play in the neighborhood, you have a few friends. But it was a small circle of friends. And yeah, I got picked on a lot. Especially by, and even by both sides of the, I never um, I guess I really, never really let that get to me. As time went on, it was a situation where I felt like that they finally said, she's just, it's not going to move her, you know, thinking it. You know, the band only performed, I guess. I guess it 00:27:00probably helped a lot. They performed in football games and parades. Football games and parades pretty much, you know. But we were we were a good band and we won lots of band competitions, you know, and things like that. When I was coming up and we were, you know, recognized, we won state competitions and those kind of things and I just kind of left it with the band. I didn't try to bleed in other people. I picked my friends in the band. Which when I think about that kind of goes back to where my mom was. My mom was a nurse, so it was hard for black women to be nurses. They wanted to be nurses' aides, or they wanted them to be housekeepers. My mom was not only a nurse and LPN, but my mom also was a 00:28:00private nurse for a doctor. And so we were always around the other race. And so I felt comfortable around that race. So I think it just I think it just kind of matriculated to that when you find out that people are not going to accept you. In one sense, then you just you just kind of stay in your lane. You just kind of stay in your lane. And that's kind of how I made it through the high school situation. Being in the band, I was in the band and graduated from there, graduated early, and so I don't think I felt any kind of way any different. It had just, and then one of my best friends, of course, was white. She and I even 00:29:00still yet today her mom you know the story goes that her mom and my mom when her mom was in the hospital and was almost to the point of death, my mom was her nurse and, you know, my mom's gone, but her mom still living. And as a matter of fact, I think it was about a year ago I went to see her mom and, you know, she sat and talked to me. She said, you had the most wonderful mom. I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for your mom. And you know that she always she said, you'll always be my daughter, is what she said to me. And, you know, she, she took care of me to just like she did her own. So I think that's the reason why I've just always felt comfortable and never allowed anybody to make me feel any different. WELLS: Did your, because you mentioned that your mom had, you know, she, she went through something similar being a black nurse. Did she ever have, 00:30:00do you remember her having explicit conversations with you about what it is like to be a black woman in a predominately white like field or industry? Or like, you know, when you were going into middle school and high school, did she ever talk explicitly about that?

SANDERS: Ironically, no. My mom always believed you live by example. So what my mom did, that's what I did. You know, she was a Christian woman. And, you know, she always put God first. And I always see her praying, you know, not only for herself, but for me. She always used to tell me all the time, "if anybody bothers you, you let me know." So, you know, that's kind of scary. So I can remember thinking that, my mom saying, "don't let anyone ever bother you. If 00:31:00they do, you tell me." I always thought "Lord have mercy." I'm so, I would. If anybody bothered me, I don't think I would tell her. You know, because, you know, I don't know what that really meant. But she would always say that "don't ever let anyone bother you." Well, she had a reason for saying that, my mom was married like four times. And unfortunately, three of those were, you know, people that drank a lot and they were not very kind to her. But my mom didn't let that bother her. You know, she kind of took control. She was not one she was not a controllable woman, a woman that you couldn't control. But, so that's reason why I think she said those things to me, because she's single. She's got me, you know, and she and "please, whatever you do, don't ever let anybody bother you. And if they bother you, tell me." You know, so that's I think that's kind of how I grew up. I always knew that I could always go to my mom if anybody bothered me.

WELLS: You, um, said that your mom was a nurse, so you wanted to be a nurse. 00:32:00When did you decide that wasn't the path you were going to take or what made you decide that that wasn't the path you're going to pursue?

SANDERS: Well, when my mom decided, you know, she worked at the hospital a lot, so she did clinicals a lot. For her to be an LNP it took a lot longer than some people. But she did it. When my mom decided that she was going to do that and go back to school and be an LNP. And let me say this first. My mom didn't graduate from high school. She quit school when she was in the 10th grade. And then. She went back to school. But my mom had to go back into the high school to get her high school degree. They didn't have a GED back then.

WELLS: --mm hmm--

SANDERS: So, my mom would walk me to grade school, and then she'd go to high school. Then I'd have to sit there and wait for her from high school. And then we'd walk home. So for two years, we walked to school together. She went to high 00:33:00school and I went. And this was when she was in her late twenties. Thirties. She had to go back and go back into the high school, get her degree, and she did get a high school degree and then she went. How I knew I didn't want to be a nurse was when she'd tell me to type all those papers. So one of the things, that's one of the things that I prided in was the fact that I took typing. I was up to like 90, 95 words a minute. I was just it was a skill set that I wanted to keep. And so my mother bought me a typewriter at home, and I would practice at home. And I, I pretty much got to the point that I could flawlessly type 80 words a minute flawlessly get a little bit faster and got sloppy, but I could flawlessly type 80 words a minute. And when that happened, my mom was like, I got all these 00:34:00papers that I got to type because she had bought me a typewriter and I would just sit in the kitchen and just type. When I was in college, I went to community college first and I always sat there and type papers. So that's when I found out I didn't want to be a nurse because typing all, but I was like, what is this? You know? And so I'm reading all these papers and typing. And one of them, my girlfriend, we're still friends to this day. Her mom was an LPN and went on to be an RN. She was having me type papers and I said "I'm not going to be a nurse. No, no, no."

WELLS: So did that interfere with your like, with your love for typing too? Or are you just like, or I just don't want to type those things?

SANDERS: Yeah, no, I can still do it. Maybe not as flawlessly as I could. Maybe I had to back down to about 70 now. But I still type extremely, I still type 00:35:00extremely fast.

WELLS: You mentioned that you attended community college, so I want to shift the talking about your early career experience and your path with then into higher education. So you attended Madisonville Business and Technical College, correct?

SANDERS: Mm hmm.

WELLS: Okay. So what made you choose to go there?

SANDERS: Home. Being home and being secure so that the big hiccup in my life, which is a big hiccup in my life, but the most blessing in my life was my daughter, I actually have two children. Now it's my daughter, Dimitra. And she, um, I was, um, 17. And my life got rocked upside down. And my mom was so disappointed in me. But I was determined because she thought, told me that 00:36:00education was the best. So my mom went through this phase. She said, "you go ahead and go to school." "I'll adopt a child and you can just go on and go to school, get your degree, and I'll raise the daughter." I said, "no, ma'am, I will go get a job. I will do the education and I'll raise my daughter." And I did. So I graduated. And she. She's in Lexington. She has two kids of her own now. I always like to tell the story. She was born on my birthday. She was born. And our years are backwards. So, you know, even though what the devil means for bad, God means for good. She's my, she's my rock and you know, and I'm her, you know, and I'm hers and we're inseparable. It was a rocky road, you know, back 00:37:00when I was 17 years old. Now you talk about, got talked about. Got to think about that. I made it through band and if you look at my annual, I tell people all the time, I was Madisonville North Hopkins annual, my senior picture in my majorette outfit was me and my daughter. Nobody ever knew it. I was so scared. My mom was kind of strict. So I was so scared. I never said or I hid it until I was almost six months. I never went to a doctor or anything just because my mom was so strict. So. So my high school senior picture is actually me and my daughter, but nobody ever knew it. I was able to suck it in and take that picture, but when you look at it, you're like wait a minute, you know, that 00:38:00little skimpy outfit? It's a little tight. Yeah, it was a little tight. But yeah, my senior, my senior majorette picture was me and my daughter, Dimitra. But so that had a lot to do, the reason why I went there, home security, get my education in and move on. And then that's when I went to work for the trucking industry. So there at home, one of the top five was located there in Madisonville. So there was you know, there's a lot of industry there that I could uh, I could get my education and get a good job. So.

WELLS: What was your major or program of interest there? My, uh, my major program of interest at that time actually was science in the STEM program, you know, but it drastically changed to just a business administration because I 00:39:00became a social butterfly. And, um, so my, I guess whatever my abilities are started to come out. And so being a social person, liking people, you got like people to be social. And I started moving into and joined the organization called the Kentucky Business and Professional Women, and it was a local organization there in Madisonville. And this lady by the name of Suzanne Salter, took me under her wing and, and started me in a program called the Young Careers Program. It was an educational piece to their organization, a speaking how to present yourself, how to deliver speeches, the whole nine yards. And I ended up 00:40:00winning that competition. And, and I'm still working I'm still going to school and ended up. Long story short, with Kentucky Business and Professional Women, ended up working through the organization, becoming vice president, president. Moving on up to the national level. I served on national level. I was an officer, and another first, became the first black female, well, of course, as female, I became the first black president of the Kentucky Business of Professional Women's Organization. So it was another first. I became the first black female president of the Madisonville Chamber of Commerce. So it led to a lot of firsts.

SANDERS: And then I was the first black female to be put into the Hopkins County 00:41:00Historical Society from my hometown. And so, you know, I tried my best more than anything else. When I go back and think about those things is not try to let those things lead me or let those things overcome what I'm really about myself. Me. When I moved, I worked at the trucking industry for 20 something plus years and I started out, especially when I had my daughter, I was a file clerk and ended up being, you know, one of the executives there after many, many years until it left me really because the company was in financial trouble and moved away from Madisonville and moved to Jacksonville. I went to Jacksonville for a 00:42:00couple of years and then came back to Kentucky.

WELLS: So you mentioned, you know, you have all of these firsts, which are amazing accomplishments. Can you say more about like the responsibilities that come with being the first, whether between whether was similar or different from like being the first in high school? So by being the first in these leadership roles and these professional organizations, what what is it like to, to be the first black woman of so many things?

SANDERS: Well, the first thing I think about is your name. My mom always said, you know, all you have is your name. You got to keep your name clean. That's what she always used to say to me, you know, when I first you know, I go back to when I was 17 and I had a child out of wedlock, um, I try not to let that define my future. And so I would even in college after graduation, after I graduated, I 00:43:00would continue to take leadership courses. I probably have oh, my gosh, I probably have. And, and you don't keep up with them. I can't even imagine. 500 plus CEU hours of leadership, management, supervisory skills, accounting, human resources, any and everything that I could soak in, that's what I did, because I always felt like I was behind. You know, at one point I kept thinking, man, I got to catch up I'm behind, you know? And really, I wasn't. So if there was a job opening in the company that I went to, when I went to the trucking industry and in it and here I am a file clerk, and now I'm going to move up to accounts receivable or credit collections clerk. Well, I need some background in it. So I 00:44:00went to management courses, I found them, went to those, and then I learned how to do that. And then then there were there's a supervisor position going, well, I don't, what does that really mean? Supervisory skills? I'm not really sure. Well, let me find something. So I would find. So I have so many American management CEU's, it's crazy. Because I would go the supervisor, the manager, oh, well, now they want me to run credit and collection department. Oh, I don't know anything about credit. Well, let me go find out. So then I'm certified in credit and collections. Well, now you got to talk about team building. Now you got to talk about the manager, the supervisor. Now you have employees. I went from 5 employees to 10 to 20 to 30 employees. How do I manage these people? Well, you got to be everything to everybody. How do you find that out? Well, you got to go to class, so you go to, so I'd find another one and find another class to show me how to be a good supervisor. How, you know, I never want one thing 00:45:00that, I don't think anybody really does, you don't want people not to like you.

WELLS: --right--

SANDERS: You know. And so how do you be a likable person? You know, on top of I get up and I read my Bible every day and I know that love is the root. You know, love is love is love, but. I also know that I have to be able to manage people to the point that they don't think I'm thinking one is favorite over the other. You know, how do you manage men? How do you manage women? How do you manage old? How do you manage young? How do you yourself present yourself if your manager is older or younger? So all of that is in your managerial skills, your leadership skills. You know what you have a passion for. And the only way you can do that is with additional education. You've got to learn those things. Well, then, you know, they wanted me to go do payroll in person. I don't know anything about payroll and personnel. Well, let's just go to class and find out what does that 00:46:00really mean? So that's what I did. There was not anything that I did or that I moved into that I didn't know about because I had went and got those skills. So I didn't go and think that I was, you know, so smart and knew everything just off the top of my head. I went and got training. And training is important. You got to know what you're doing to tell somebody else what they're doing.

WELLS: Right. And so you mentioned, like you, you know, you got to know what you're doing. You ain't got these skills. So you could, because it's important for you didn't ever want someone to feel like they didn't like you. And so do you feel like in those roles, there's a difference between like, people like you or not like you and respecting you or not respecting you? Like do feel that the education and those extra credentials helped to gain the respect of the people that you are managing or working with?

SANDERS: Always. You know, don't give me, firsthand experience helped. But 00:47:00educate, people, because if people think you're educated, they think you think you know what you do. At least they think until you get there, they'll find out afterwards. But at least on paper, they can go, "Oh, well, you know, I don't know this person," but you know, and then you look at it, you look at credentials. There are, they're very important because people, people will tell you, and I was told, they will tell you if they feel like, some people will and a lot will, if they feel like you're somewhere you don't need to be. If, when I uh, moved from the trucking industry, after those many years. And I did all that training, I took an appointment from the governor, and I was commissioner at the 00:48:00Transportation Cabinet. Well, they selected me for that because of my background in the trucking industry. So I was over vehicle licensing, permitting, all the things that I did, that was where my expertise was. So that's the commission that they assigned me to. I had 286 employees, the most I'd ever managed in my lifetime. And I had one person come and say to me, "I'm not really sure I understand why they chose you," oh they were bold, "to be over us. You don't know anything about this department or what we do." Now, I was from the opposite side of the fence. I was the one on this side of the fence asking them for the information. They were giving it back to me at the trucking company. So I said 00:49:00to the lady, I said, "You know what? You're exactly right. But I can promise you this: within the next 60 to 90 days, I will know every job on this floor." So I scheduled each employee for 30 minutes sessions. Every last one of them. I sat down every 286 employees within a 90 day period, and I sat down 30 minutes with each one of them to learn their job. And so it really wasn't for the one person, because I always think when situations present themselves, then you have to capsize on that. So at the end of 90 days, I didn't have to hear "you don't know my job," because I did. Not only did I know it, I could do it.

WELLS: --mm hmm--

SANDERS: And it's not educated, true enough, education, had I not had, you know, the business administration background, had I not had the managerial supervision, you know, had I not had leadership skills, had I not had human resource information that helps you relate to different employees and their personalities, had I not had all of that background training and went to train the trainers, you know, I'm an ICL trainer, I'm a trained a trainer because you have to be able to not only listen to people and what their what the issues are, you also have to, may, you may have to retrain people and you got to know how to have those skills. So I listened to all of those. I attended all those classes and I listened to all of them. And then, like you said earlier, that's where you gain the respect.

WELLS: --mm hmm--

SANDERS: So they could never come to me and say, "Well, you don't know what I 00:51:00do," because I did. I knew within 90 days, I knew what everybody did. And I had a big, old, thick notebook with, you know, I was writing down I mean, I have notebooks all over the place. I write, I write all the time. And that was something that my mom did. She wrote all the time. I have books in there all dated from the time that I got here at Kentucky State University. I can go downstairs and pull the year of the notes that I took when I was doing X amount of job. People will call me and say, "Did you have so-and-so's phone number? Do you know where she was? Where were you?" And I can tell you where I was on February the 14th, on 2013. I'll look, I'll go down downstairs and look at the book. Some things I did, some things I kept. And you don't leave to technology, you know, you just, you just don't. And it's a wealth of information for other people. And I believe you let people know what you know. I don't want all this 00:52:00information. I have it. But I'm, I am more than willing to share, because if I don't give you some of this information I have, I can't get new because I don't have room. So I got to make room for the new, uh, so that way I can give you what I already know.

WELLS: You, so in this uh anecdote you just shared, this person, like you said, was very bold in questioning, like, did you really know your position. In instances like that or other instances where they weren't so bold but maybe like implied or acted a certain way to, to give the impression that they doubted you or assumed that you didn't know your position, how much of that do you believe is tied to your position as a black woman in an authority position?

SANDERS: Oh, well. I would say quite a bit of it, especially in the especially in that particular job. It was a transportation cabinet. I was the first black 00:53:00female director and deputy commissioner that had ever been over vehicle licensing, permitting, all of that. That was another first. I didn't realize that until I had gotten there, actually. And so sometimes I was just tripping up on being the first. I didn't really want to do it. I didn't want to be it. It was just there. And I was just, it was just, you don't find very many black females, number one, in the trucking industry, they think we drive trucks. You know, we don't drive. So that has a lot to do with it, too. It's a very. The only thing that we saw mostly in the in the trucking industry when it came to blacks was truck drivers. You know, they, they just assumed that they are most of them are all black. But as far as in the offices and in the executive 00:54:00offices, no. So that was the assumption. You know, I had many people ask me about that, "well did you drive a truck?" No, I didn't drive a truck. And so I think that, that had, I think that was really a whole lot of it, you know, because that was a white female that asked me that question. "You don't know our job, so how do you figure you can run this department?" I can show you better than I can tell you. And that's what I did. And it wasn't, it wasn't out of being just, um, I wasn't being smart aleck. I was being honest, because I think it's honesty and integrity that get you, you know where you need to be faster than being a smart aleck or being, you know, just trying to be a showboat. 00:55:00That's not my, that's not my makeup. My girlfriend told me one time we were at church and she said, "You know, a couple of people at church." I don't even remember what she said. Here to tell you, if you want to find out, who your true friends are, go to church. But anyway. They came up to her and said, "well, we don't think," and I don't even know what the conversation was about. And she said, "Oh, no, you're wrong." She said. And I'm thinking it may have been newer people coming in. People, you know, how new people come in, they try to tell somebody about somebody how you are. And then she said, "Oh, no, you're wrong." She said, "Now that would be me. But you're wrong about her. She'll do anything for you. Give you the shirt off your back," you know. And she said, "Oh," that she have people coming up to say, "Well, we don't trust her. We don't." And she was like, "Oh, no, you got the wrong person." So that whole thing about I can 00:56:00show you better than I can tell you. You got to live the life, you know they say walk the walk, talk the talk. You've got to, you got to live what you speak. You can't, and you can't waver from that. And if you make a mistake, that's okay. Know you made a mistake and move on. So something had to do with that.

WELLS: I'm listening to you talk about these microaggressions and how you're handling it and how, you know, you've been the first in a lot of different roles and what you've done to prepare for those roles. And it's, I admire how much of your strategy is just about being honest that you deserve to take up space and that you're going to do that because it's your space to take up and you have earned it, and you're, you are prepared to do what you need to do. And, you know, when we talked about your childhood background, your mother and your great 00:57:00grandmother had a lot to helping, you, had a lot to do with helping you build that attitude. Are there other support systems or networks you've been able to build or create to also assist you in navigating different roles or leadership, leadership positions?

SANDERS: You know, I said earlier, I'm a socialist, so, um I really leaned into a lot of nonprofit organizations because the nonprofit organizations are always asking you for something, and that's not a bad thing. I was involved with Big Brothers, Big Sisters individually and not necessarily. I served on the board of directors for United Way for All, probably 20 something years away. When I was home and when I came to Frankfort, I did the same thing. Frankfort has a couple, a couple of other organizations. They have Downtown Frankfort Inc. I serve on 00:58:00the board of directors for tourism here in Frankfort, and I serve on the board of directors for Frankfort Chamber of Commerce. A funny story was when I first moved here to Frankfort, I decided I was going to work for a year before I really kind of moved out into the community because I really needed to, you know, the people that needed me, as, as, as a supervisor, I didn't need to be anywhere else but in my spot. So I made a determination. I said, "I'm going to not move out into a church," Like join a church, "and I'm not going to move out into community projects. I'm going to lay low for about a year." And that's what I did. I didn't, I just kind of watched over. And so when I decided I was going to move into a volunteer situation, I decided I was going to go to Downtown Frankfort Inc. And so I went to Downtown Frankfort Inc, and, um, the executive 00:59:00director was there. I walked in and I said, "so I noticed on your website," I had been looking at it. I looked at backgrounds on everything before I step into it. I said, "look, I noticed you have events downtown." I had not really attended any events downtown yet. Every once in a while. And I said, "I'd like to volunteer and help you with the next event that you have coming up." She looked at me and she said, "You'd like to do what?" I said, "I'd like to volunteer and help with you have a downtown concert coming up. Is there something I can do to help?" I just moved here and the background and she said, "I'm not really sure. But I'll call you." I said, "Who does that?" I just volunteered to help. Who says, "I'll call"? Oh, okay. And, you know, she had a 01:00:00look on her face. I said, "oh, okay." So I waited a couple of weeks. She never called, so I went back. She said, "Oh, yeah, I remember you. You remember when you came in here?" And I said, "Well, I mean, if there's nothing that you have that you know you'd like to do," I said, "I'm fine." I said, "But I would like to be involved in your organization. I just moved here," dadada, gave her my background. That was probably a mistake. And I thought about that and I said she looked at she talked when I was telling her what I had, you know, Chamber of Commerce and, you know, all the different organizations. It was intimidating. And so, you know, it was fine at the end of the conversation she said, "Yeah, sure, come on down." Well, went downtown, went to the event and she really did not, you know, like just go all in for it. She was like, over we're at one point 01:01:00she moved to another table. I was just following this woman around this back and forth. And finally I was like, "You know what, it's really not necessary." So I just kind of faded off into the sunset, you know, went downtown, then I went home, you know, I never really saw the lady anymore. Well, I guess it was probably about three or four months later, another lady had taken over for that. And by this time, I was already on the United Way board. I got pulled for that. I got United Way board, I was already on United Way. I was already on Big Brothers, Big Sisters. I was already, already on the Frankfort Chamber of Commerce. You know, it, it started rolling. And I saw the lady working at one of the places downtown. And I said to her, she said, "I remember you." I said, "You do?" She said, "Yes!" She said, "I was hoping that you could serve," you know, 01:02:00and wherever she's working now, she said, "you know, we're looking for a spot on the board." And I said, "I'll tell you what, I am a little booked up right now." I said, "there's one thing I don't do. I don't serve on boards and committees in name only. I'm not doing that." I have resigned before because people seemed like they want. I was like, "okay, now look, I understand you have five white people and you want this black person on here. You know, I'm not doing that because you don't have a voice. You know, I can talk. You may not want to listen to what I have to say, but I can talk." So I'm not going to, I have resigned from boards before because I, I will be on there like one board meeting, next board meeting, I'm going, I'm looking, I'm like "mm-mm, this is not it," because I'm a worker and I want to help people, you know. So that's, you know, it's you, you kind of matriculate into those kind of things. And I'm like, "Nah, I'm not 01:03:00doing this, you know? Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. But I don't think this is a fit for me," you know, and I resign and move on. You know, I've been appointed by the governor on a couple of committees, you know, at, at the level, um, in some of the you know, I was on the Motor Vehicle Commission. I've been appointed on commissions and things like that. And I get to the commission, I go, "hmm, maybe not." And I have and I've resigned from them because it was just obvious what, you know, what the purpose was just to, you know, have that fit there. But so it was kind of funny when I saw her and I said, "I'm so sorry. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm booked up right now." Yeah. But booked up right now so, you know, it is what it is. But people, you know, people you know, they have a, after a little while, they have a they form an opinion. If they haven't sat down 01:04:00and talk to you, they form an opinion. I go back I always go back to my mom because, you know, I have a tendency to lean toward those kind of groups because, you know, my mom always told me, you know, "Always make sure that you know what you're doing is worthy of your time and your effort."

WELLS: --right--

SANDERS: Always make sure it's worthy of your time. And it's important, it's important.

WELLS: So I know, I wanted to, I'm glad you transitioned to your mom cause I wanted to go back to her because I know that she heavily influenced your perception of education and hard work, and I'm interested, how have you carried those values over or instill the same values in your children?

SANDERS: Well, I'll go to my daughter first. She's the oldest. She graduated from EKU and, and Sullivan. And she, she's there in Lexington. And she, I, um, 01:05:00has, she has really done a good job when it comes to being a clone. I guess being a clone, my son, not so much. He's, you know, he's in a technical field. But, you know, I think it's a different, they're six years apart. You know, I had her younger and then I had him now after I got married. And so, you know, there's a difference in the in the age of the groups. You know, he went technical and she went you know, she went to a four year. They know education is important. They went to school every day. You know, going to school every day just going is, is, is an accomplishment in itself. Just being back in the classroom was an accomplishment in itself. I still look and go and try to find 01:06:00things to enhance my education. I went into community engagement, which is a field that people do not see, they don't see it as a, it's a well, let me say this. It's starting to become you know, people are now getting, and I have one, you know, minors in community engagement. And uh, I, uh, I'm a member of the International Town Gown Association, which is a relationship that you have between the college town, we're a college town. And your tourism and your chamber people. I have certifications. They're getting ready to do executive management certification in tourism, hospitality and tourism management. I just 01:07:00can't stop. I think you just can't. You know, I'm trying to I'm trying to get myself prepared to be on an island for the rest of my life, I guess. I don't know. But you just can't stop. Especially I work in education now. So, you know, I left the state government in 20, state government in 20, no, 2008 I left state government. It left me. Governor changed. So a lot of times things changed for, especially if you're the commissioner in a, an appointed position. And then I was sitting at home one day and looking at my window. This is true because I can walk to work. So I'm looking out my window at Kentucky State University. "Wow. Hmm. Wonder if they've got anything." So I remember taking the job as executive assistant to the president. So I've always worked in President's office, because 01:08:00I said to myself one day, "You know what? I'm going to start picking my jobs. I'm not going to let it pick me anymore. I'm not going to be allowed to work for the president of the university." So my daughter goes, "Mom, that's crazy." I go, "Oh, no, we'll see." I took, I took that literally took the resume, laid it down. And I went bullet point by bullet point. I can do that. I can do that. I can do that. I went all the way down and I went, "Hmm. Now I can do this job, is do I want this job?" So I did. And I remember my first interviews with Dr. (Mary Evans) Sias, who's the president of the university at the time, in July of '08, July, June, July, August of '08. I did my interview with her and I walked in the office and then she goes, "Well, I see your resume." And she said, "I think 01:09:00you'll be bored." That's what she said to me. I said, "What?" She said, "This is impressive, but I think you'll be bored. I don't think you can sit at a desk and be an executive assistant after all of this." And I said, "Watch me." She goes, "Really?" I said, "Yeah, I think, I think this would be different. Not worked in education. I think it'd be good." It's just different, is, is really intriguing to me. Different is, I love different. Every day I want to do something different. And she said, "well, the only thing I have to say is, is that, you know, this is the president's office. Everything they do is confidential." You know, it's got a prestige to it. You know, people go, I said, "well, my mom 01:10:00always told me all you got your name." Remember I said that earlier, all you have is your name and keep your name clean. And I said, "my name is clean, you can run the background. You'll see that because I know that's a few and far between, I think a lot by now." Yeah. And I said, and I said, "and I figure it this way," and I said this to her, I said, "I figure this: if I don't embarrass God, then I'll never embarrass you." And I got a call a week later to come and work in Kentucky State University. That's where I am today.

WELLS: And, and now you're Assistant Vice President of Public Engagement, correct?

SANDERS: Well, it's actually Director of Public, they took a lot of the V.P. names. It's Director of Public Engagement.

WELLS: --okay--

SANDERS: And also, I'm back in the office of the president. I work for acting president, Claire Ross Stamps, so.

WELLS: Okay, so what is, um, tell me a bit about, like, your role now. Like, what is your, like, the goals of your position and some of the initiatives that 01:11:00you're working on?

SANDERS: Well, being direct, I can talk about being Director of Public Engagement. That's when I got involved with the International Town Gown Association. So, I'm more heavily involved with Frankfort tourism. I serve on the Tourism Board and Frankfort Chamber of Commerce, and I serve on that board. And also I'm involved with Downtown Frankfort. And a lot of the projects we do, especially now since I'm here at the university, have to do work ready programs. We have, you know, dual credit. We have dual credit here at the college, so you're working with the Franklin County. We have two systems here. We have a county system and an independent system. So you work with the county system and the independent system as it relates to, you know, matriculating students to our university here in Franklin County, working with a lot of the local 01:12:00organizations. From my particular standpoint, especially now, during COVID, you know, we have a lot of convocations, we have some of the biggest buildings in Frankfort and some of the most capacities. So I'm getting calls and there's never a day that goes by, "Can we come and have this meeting on your campus because of the space?" So I handle all outside external events for the university. Anybody that wants to come and do meetings, if they're nonprofit organizations, anybody that wants to come and hold, whether it be one meeting or monthly meetings or anything like that. So I'm that contact for any of those type organizations. And the other thing is, is that, you know, we're a land-grant institution. So I split, such a thing to split your time, my time between you know, that's the regular university sign and land-grant. You know, 01:13:00we're really involved with nonprofits. The Rotary Club and Kiwanis, belong to both of those organizations. I think how you get all that done. Thank God for Zoom, because really, that helps, you know that. I hate it. I hate that we're in COVID, but it, you know, I attend more meetings on time because of that, because a lot of people went to Zoom. So, I'm part of Rotary in Frankfort and Frankfort was and they do a lot of we have a community engagement event. You know, you get football games, you know, we have a Frankfort day that we get all community organizations involved, and all the nonprofits involved, part of the city and the county, the fiscal court and the city and the county. So that's, you know, the public engagement side, just fostering those relationships. In the office of the president, I just do what she tells me to do. You know, you know, I'm in 01:14:00charge of most of the presidential events and making sure that in charge of anything that has to do with the president's home or the president's office, it, it's a dual role that I play for quite some time, off and on, in and out with the previous president. So, special events, our assemblies and convocations. Is there anything else left? Probably.

WELLS: So a lot of the, the work that you're doing is about fostering these relationships between the university and the community. Has there been pushback on certain initiatives from like either side?

SANDERS: You know, I wouldn't call it pushback. I would call it. They just. I 01:15:00would call it more, they need more education about our programs. You would think, you know, where we're in our 135th year, it's our 135th anniversary and you would think more people would know about Kentucky State University. I'm not from you know, I'm not originally from Frankfort. I've only been here 16 years. And I met someone the other day, you know, we host we let the legislators use our space. So we hosted Western Kentucky in the back of our gym. It's great program. And I go down there and the guy says to me, "you know this the first time I've ever been." I said, "are you Frankfort?" He said, "yeah." "You've never been on this property?" So that happens every day.

WELLS: --wow--

SANDERS: Every day there is at least one person that says, "you know, I haven't ever been. I've been here all my life, but I've never been. I was born and 01:16:00raised in Frankfort. Never been." So it's, it's a daily process. And so that's my job to get. Okay. Since you haven't been here. So now you're here that you need to come back. You know, you need to come back and, you know, do a tour or, you know, see if there's some involvement. You know, COVID makes things a little bit different. But, you know, see how you can be involved, you know, with our education and research. Mhm. Yeah.

WELLS: And so it sounds like for, at least for the community you want them to engage in these relationships so that they can be exposed to like educational opportunities and just knowing that they do have access to this university, that is like in their home space. What do you want the students to get out of these relationships?

SANDERS: Mhm. Well, I think. Oh, my gosh, let me think. I think that it's an 01:17:00exchange of information that-- I think it's an exchange of information that community members need to understand the value of having this university in their city. They've got to, they've got to get to the point of the value of it. And, it's not always about funding as much as it is about support. It's not. You know, we can talk about funding all day long. Well, and I don't want to talk about that. We, we offer so much, you know, with classes and opportunities for 01:18:00you to come before students. We offer so much to individuals that they can come and be a part of our university. And we just we just have to get their feet on the dirt on the ground. Actually inside the university. And it's a small university, to be honest. It's, it's ground wise, it is, you can get around here pretty good, you know. Yeah. So I think that's it more than anything else.

WELLS: You've talked about, writing came up in every aspect of your life that we discussed so far, and you mentioned like you take a lot of notes in this role. What are some other things that you have to write about or like written materials that you have to produce in this position?

SANDERS: Oh, well, I would say probably, outside of just communication, you 01:19:00know, for from the president to just a normal communication, when you talk about letters and, you know, invitations and those kind of things, I would say, and white papers, I've had to do some of those, especially on the public engagements, on writing for grant funding, those kind of things, grant funding. Sometimes I have to do, you know, a couple of white papers on projects that I've been responsible for. I am on the board of directors for the Bluegrass Higher Education Consortium, which is actually right there out of Lexington. And they have a program called Academic Leadership Academy, and I'm the lead liaison for that. And it's a, it's a consortium. And a lot of those we are responsible for 01:20:00the training of it's, and it's actually even though it's a year long, it's only two full days. The most of the rest of the times are by Zoom. And we're helping other people, our staff, faculty are involved in that. I'm surprised you hadn't heard about that, Academic Leadership Academy. And they as a matter of fact, they're doing a new class here in the next 30 days. But it's a group, we kind of keep it about 60. And they, and they talk about education research and, and talk about solutions, and you do team building and mentorship, so.

WELLS: I don't, I don't think I've heard about it since I've been here, but I'll look it up.

SANDERS: Mm hmm. Yeah, but they've got a new class coming up. It's really a good 01:21:00program. WELLS: So you mentioned a few different organizations and nonprofits that you have been fostering relationships with, and I wanted to talk about one program specifically at Kentucky State that is very unique to the Kentucky community, which is the Undergraduate Certificate in Fermentation and Distillation Science. What impact do you believe that having this program at a historically black land-grant university will have on the bourbon industry?

SANDERS: Well, I think it's going to have a huge impact. We're, we're probably. I won't say if it were the only land-grand, but there's not maybe one or two other that have anything to do with a program such as the Fermentation and Distillation Program. Considering, I'm sure when I saw that steel in that barn 01:22:00when I was five or six years old, I'm sure that the black population has a whole lot more to do with bourbon than people think. And probably, you know, we keep digging into the history and we find out about certain things, but probably, there's, you know, it's the history that hasn't been told. Or I could talk about an untold story. I think that it's going to have a huge impact because even yet, still now, in, in our case at Kentucky State University, we just had meetings the other day where we have distilleries that want to come on campus and talk to our students and talk to, you know, be a part of that class. And, you know, COVID kind of really pushed it to the point that we were, you know, we had to 01:23:00pull back from tours and things like that. We had to pull back from those. But we have a lot of the bourbon industry interested in that program for two reasons. One is some people, few still want to be distillers. The other thing is, is that distilleries are looking to us for internships, jobs, those kind of things. And people that, you know, know about the program and know about the process. It's a program and a process issue. So if you know about the program, the process, then that's a you know, that's a good thing. And it kind of fits in with the but the STEM program scientists, you know, are needed, you know, and those kind of things.

WELLS: So aside from the training and then like the tours that are being 01:24:00offered, what other materials or resources would you suggest to students that are planning to pursue careers in the bourbon industry?

SANDERS: Well. I would say, I think that, I think they need to understand that it is an art and it is, it's something that one on one is not going away. It's going to always be here. It's art. And there's, there's a, there's a, and it's all history, but there's a, a meaningful, it's a meaningful project that can have great outcomes if you decide to pursue something in that industry. Whether 01:25:00it be an actual distiller or whether it be you be a part of a distillery. I think any of us, just like if we decided to go work at Buffalo Trace or Jim Beam or any of those, you know, we have so many here in Frankfort. If you decide to go work for any of those distilleries, I think that we could probably do that. But to be effective in whatever you decide to do, you've got to know history and background. So, and I have to say, I think we're having problems with this, you know chemistry is, is a big portion distilleries so, we may want to name it something else because I think we're having problems getting people in this last 01:26:00in the chemistry part of the distillery because you're saying chemistry. So we got to figure out how do you, you know, make that to the point that they want. We got to change the name.

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: I'm not sure, you know. But it is part of it though. It is. You know, how the mixture, you know, we talk about what makes it bourbon, you know, 51% corn. You know, it has a lot new oak barrel. We talk about all of that, but I'm just talking about being inside the distillery, making the mixtures, making the flavors, you know, knowing the notes, you know, is it, you know.

WELLS: --keeping them consistent--

SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah. Is it wood, it is it caramelly? Is it, you know, knowing and how does it get there? How does it get to be that?

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: That I think that's what's important.

WELLS: You have, we've talked about a lot of managerial experience, leadership experience, admin experience. So based on all of that, and you're the type that 01:27:00you've been the first, what advice would you give to black students, especially female black students who plan on entering a predominantly white industry such as the bourbon industry?

SANDERS: Don't be intimidated. Don't allow someone to tell you who you are. Always be honest, and always be truthful. Always be open to learn. Always be teach, and accept teachable moments. If there's a moment that you feel like you can glean from somebody else, do that. Surround yourself with those kind of people. Never take the day for granted. Always, you know, keep the, we have this 01:28:00day and make our own the most, make the most out of that day. And that's what I tried to do. I tried to make the most out of what today is. What did you do today? I always ask that if I talk to my children and grandchildren. And what did you do today? What did. And if you decide, you know, if you keep asking people that, what did you do today? You people understand that the day is really important because a day is important. Not so much, especially just now. It just really is. It's just an important thing to do. Watch. Watch other people. And, and a lot of people say this one, and I wholeheartedly believe it. If people show you who they are, believe them. Yeah, believe them, because most of the 01:29:00time they will, they'll show you who they are. You just need to believe them.

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: Yeah.

WELLS: --that's awesome--

SANDERS: Yeah. Don't change, try to change somebody else. If they tell you they are that you believe it, and then you adjust. Yeah. Then you make that adjustment because. That's an old saying. First impressions, always the best impression. It probably is. It probably is.

WELLS: That's awesome advice. I want to shift over to talking about your personal interests and connection to bourbon, because that is one of the reasons we decided to have this conversation on Valentine's Day, because what better thing to talk about than bourbon? (laughs) So, so you mentioned your, in childhood like your first experiences with like smelling alcohol. What was your first memory of bourbon specifically?

SANDERS: So I was, um, one of my stepfathers. We were out on the, we used to go 01:30:00to this Thanksgiving that everybody used to go hunting on Thanksgiving. That was part of it. You know, you had people fix food and stuff like that. And so, unfortunately, my stepfather was probably had too much to drink before he went out hunting, I guess, is what it was. We were out back playing with some friends or something like that. And I remember. Smelling this, you know, smelling the alcohol, the whiskey at that time. And he was always trying to hug, you know, on people. And I can remember that smell. Well, anyway, so we were out back playing and I stuck my head around like we were playing something and they were shooting from the front of the house to the back. I stuck my head around the corner about the time one of the shotguns went off. And I went like that. And the bullet went right past my face. And my mom come out screaming, and the kids were screaming. 01:31:00You know, everybody thought somebody had got shot. You know, it was just that I was so scared. I was crying. I remember my mom gets so mad at him and then I remember the smell of alcohol. So I decided at that time I would never touch. Whiskey. That was my last. So, you know, you grow up and then you go into high school and you go to college, so you dabble in the whites. And so back then, you know, it was wine, it was the Boone Farm and grain alcohol, all of that. And it kind of moved in from the whites to the wine, to the whites to the wine. You know, I wasn't, and then, you know, I grow up. And even more than that, I'm into the, you know, the twenties, thirties, a part of my life, that's probably the same thing I was doing. And I was getting so sick, man. You know, I was like, 01:32:00this is crazy, you know? And I don't drink a lot. That is one thing about, I mean, I don't drink home a lot, even still yet now, I don't drink at home. We never had, we were always, we never really had much alcohol in the house because we were always sneaking to places. So then we move. So I never really bought it and put it in the house. It was always at parties. And you know, when you went out, you know, as you get older, you go to bars and things like that and I was always drinking white. Well, I really got tired and I thought to myself, it's time to grow up. So I counted it as growing up and I said, "You know, I'm tired of the vodka, the gin," da da da da da. "It's time to grow up. It is time to move to a different stage of my life." So I started drinking red wine and then I 01:33:00was like, "now this is so much better. You know, I'm not sick, I'm not hungover." And my drinking was always on the weekends. I never drank during the week, I worked, so I didn't touch it, you know, I'd go out with the girls or something like that, I did. And then for years I did stop period. I mean, I can remember a time I probably stopped drinking for ten, maybe 15 years. I never drank anything, but sodas and water, stuff like that. But when I started back, I started drinking red wine. It was really good until I had one that came out of a barrel.

WELLS: --hmm--

SANDERS: Hmm, that sounds really good. And then I started sipping bourbon. And of course. That to me was like, you know, this looks really impressive. Because to me, to go to a bar and get a bottle of beer, if you are a woman, it was like, hmm. Or to go to a bar. And I really didn't want to touch martinis or the pretty drinks. That was just not me. What, I'm just going to have a bourbon on the rocks. Now, I remember where I was and I was like, now this I can handle. And I remember I had a stepbrother one time telling me, said, "if you go out somewhere by yourself, always get a drink straight. And only drink that drink all night long. And don't let anybody buy anything for you. You know, just drink that drink. Just sip on it." And that was bourbon. When I got home, I didn't have a headache. I didn't have a hangover. I thought, this may be the route I need to go, and that's how I started, just because I went through a matriculation of all that other stuff, you know. And then now when I go back and think about it and I go back to the days when I used to smell it in the still, I remember that's the smell. That was it. That it wasn't more of a whiskey smell, it was more of what I'm smelling here, more caramel, more. It was a smooth kind of smell. And I said, "Well, that I don't know what that was in that, but I remember that smell. It wasn't the smell that was on my stepfather when he was hugging me. I didn't like that smell on, I didn't, you know?" So I was like, "That's got that's got to be it. That's got to be it." So then I found out that, you know, a lot of those, I guess you would say, whiskeys that they drank, you know, back then with the half pint and they'd turn it up on the west and you know, they do all that kind of stuff that was whiskey. But then when they would go inside the bar and they get that little round bottle, and they'd go up to the bar like Gunsmoke, and I said that, that, that was bourbon.

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: It was darker, richer, and that was bourbon. That's the reason why those guys were able to sit there and drink it like that. There was a big difference between what they were drinking in the little half pint and then what they were drinking behind the bar.

WELLS: This is really interesting because, so I'm hearing like kind of like these, this bourbon literacies program that came from your family by you, you know, you learn some, like you at least became familiar with like notes early on. And then like you also kind of went through a shift of what you associate, the behavior you associated with the bourbon. And then you had your brother, you said it was your brother-in-law, your stepbrother?

SANDERS: My stepbrother.

WELLS: Stepbrother. Tell you like, you know, this is actually a safe choice for a woman, which is kind of different from what we've seen. You just mentioned Gunsmoke, like bourbon or whiskey is usually associated like this very masculine 01:35:00drink, but actually with something you felt like it was a better choice. And just for like your taste, but also, like I said, your stepbrother talking about safety. And so I'm also interested in like how because you said early on, like, "I'm never going to touch whiskey." And so how did you disassociate that your stepfather's behavior with like this drink that you actually found enjoyment in? And I'm, I'm going to I turn my camera off real quick just because I'm grabbing my charger, but I'm still listening.

SANDERS: Yeah, okay. I think, let's see, how can I differentiate the two? I think the, I think the whiskey part of it really came with anger and I used to associate that with, you know, my mom would always get angry when they were, when they would drink. She would always. And I think that's. Now, how do I, I'm 01:36:00trying to think how did I get to the point that ,that was, I don't think it was the same thing. Because it has to do with the bottle. It has to do with the labels. It has to do with, you know. Is it Kessler's? There you go. Is it? Oh, my gosh. You think about all the different. Whiskey's. And I don't count Jack Daniel in that group because Jack Daniel is, is, is a top line whiskey. And I like Jack Daniel's, and, but those were not what they were drinking. They. When I started drinking bourbon, it was bolder, it, it had prestige about it. And I 01:37:00think it was just through the fact of matter that there's an art, and you sip it, and you enjoy it, and you stop. Because I think that there is a level that you get, once you get to a point when you're drinking bourbon, you just stop. You know, I don't. At least for me, I don't. I can. I can have a couple of bourbons at dinner, and I'm done.

WELLS: --mm hmm--

SANDERS: Because it's just smooth, it's just satisfying, it goes good with it. If I'm having a steak or if I'm having to, you know, it's an it's an enhancement. It's something that and I feel like I'm researching it, you know, while I'm drinking it you know, it becomes, you know, becomes it, becomes a 01:38:00whole entire dinner around the bourbon. Whiskey was something that they shot. They, you know, they got drunk and they, you know, take a bullet out. It wasn't the same. It was nowhere near the same. And I figured out that that whiskey was so much associated with the vodkas and that, you know, and don't get me wrong, I can, I can, I can drink this other drink. I just prefer not to.

WELLS: --right--

SANDERS: I just prefer not to because I, I don't. I just like, I felt like I was, like, grown up. Once I found, I actually grown up. You know, now I'm drinking bourbon. I actually have grown up. I don't, I'm not trying to, you know, slam down five tequila shots. I've actually grown up. And, I mean, I feel 01:39:00like it's a grown up thing, you know?

WELLS: So what is your preferred brand of bourbon?

SANDERS: They asked me that yesterday, I was in class. I've got some preferences, I've got some go-to's. So, I was going to pick up something just to take somewhere, I would pick up an Old Forester rye. Now that's a rye, like the Old Forester rye. If I was going to dinner, I'd pick up Antique 107, which is the Weller brand. I'm back into Buffalo Trace again. I do like Buffalo Trace's Eagle Rare Ten Year. I would be remiss if I didn't say I like Untold Story, I just don't want to crack mine yet.

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: I'm trying to. I'm trying to find. I hope, I hope on Wednesday night 01:40:00when we go to Jake's, they have, they have they have a bottle there. I just don't wanna crack mine yet.

WELLS: --take say somebody else's bottle--

SANDERS: Yeah. Just don't want to crack mine yet. Um. I do, between that, and there is a, there's a Heaven Hill has one, J.T.S. Brown. That's just a great 100 proof bourbon. I'm a 100 proof or more. I can do 99. Now, we just had Ezra 99 the other day, I thought it was great. I do lean toward the caramel, peppery type notes. Some wood maybe. And, you know, we've had a lot, a lot of great tasting of bourbon that are really being Smoke Wagon. I couldn't believe how well, how good that was when we tasted the Smoke Wagon. That was really good. And the Wm. Tarr, you know, they've come out. So there's several. I'm trying to 01:41:00think. And the one, the Eady Butler brand, she's a curator for Uncle Nearest. Mm hmm. Yeah. Haven't had it. Believe it or not, I've had not had Fresh. I haven't had it.

WELLS: I've had it at one of the early event, events like late summer, (undetectable) did an event and hosted a tasting and I had one there and it was good.

SANDERS: I haven't had it. I don't I don't know why that is, but I haven't so. That's just to name a few. Now, the one that I have, I do have one, that I have, and of course, I have a bottle of E.H. Taylor that I haven't cracked yet. Hope 01:42:00somebody has. I really want to keep that one. And then there's a couple more. You know, the Four Roses that, Four Roses. Blender's Choice is good, the newest one, the blend.

WELLS: --I haven't tried that yet--

SANDERS: That's a great bourbon. And the one by Eboni Major. And yeah, the mix from. WELLS: --Bulleit--

SANDERS: Bulleit. That's a great bourbon.

WELLS: I haven't heard hers either, but I read a lot about it and I read about it.

SANDERS: Oh, my gosh.

WELLS: Yeah, people like it.

SANDERS: Yeah, it is. It's a good bourbon too, that's, that's a great bourbon. They did a great job. It was her and somebody else. Eboni Major and another guy that was there, that, that's a great choice. It's a good bourbon. It's a good sipping bourbon. And. So, I don't know what do you? There's so many, I was 01:43:00surprised the other day somebody asked me, "Could you send me a list if I was going to start a bar?" It's funny, of bourbon, "which bourbon should I have?" And so I, you know, I just started typing and I was like, you know, how many of these bourbons do I really know? And I was like, "Yep, yeah, yeah, I know that one. I know that one. I know." That was amazing to me. So that that's, you know, it's an art. It's.

WELLS: --yes--

SANDERS: You know, so people will come to you, "what should I buy?" "Have you ever had bourbon before?" "No." So when people say "no, I've never had before, what should I get?" Woodford. Because in my opinion, if you're going to try a bourbon, you need to go to Woodford. It's smooth. Don't bite back. Doesn't have a burn. It's the perfect one, very first time bourbon. Because I think the other 01:44:00ones have turned you off.

WELLS: --mm hmm--

SANDERS: If you don't know what you know. But I think Woodford's great if you've never had bourbon before. Yeah, I tell people that all the time. Just go get it, just go get Woodford. It is one of the most consistent, best bourbons on the market, yeah.

WELLS: So, I'm hearing you drop all this knowledge about bourbon and it reminded me so much of the every other role that you've talked about like you go and seek out this other education and this training. And so what I want to learn more about, like what resources or text or materials have you use to help you research the art of bourbon or to get more familiar with whether it's like notes or tastings or just the industry?

SANDERS: Well, a lot of mine, I've been a member of the Kentucky Black Bourbon 01:45:00Guild now going on to going into my third year. And so we have classes and we have tasting classes. I would have to say that from the point of knowing what you like and what, what those notes mean when we're talking about the, you know, the different flavors salty, sweet, you know, peppery, all of that that came to last two years of classes with the Kentucky Black Bourbon Guild.

WELLS: --okay--

SANDERS: I would say that's where that came from. Prior to that, I had taken a class with the Bourbon Society in Louisville.

WELLS: --I heard of them--

SANDERS: And I get the there's a there's a magazine called Bourbon. I think it comes through the, probably the Kentucky Bourbon Association. Not sure if I know the official name for that, but they put out a magazine also and I read a lot of 01:46:00that. Social media is really good. Google it. It'll tell you just about everything that you need to know. And Barry does, he does a good job and Bourbon Obsessed does a good job when they put the ratings in there. It's a, it's a Facebook. I think he does Facebook. It's called Bourbon Obsessed. And he does a good job. And, and members of the Kentucky Bourbon, Kentucky Black Bourbon Guild do a great job if they've gotten something new. You know, they posted it, how they feel about it, you know, out there. Word of mouth is probably the biggest component of that. And I have been afforded and Kentucky State has, you know, Kentucky Black Bourbon Guild is a huge supporter of Kentucky State University, 01:47:00and vice versa. So, you know, we're trying. We've got students that belong to that organization. They're an extremely diverse organization. And they are extremely, their, their research, and their background of all of their executive board members and their, and their experience with bourbon is, is by far some of the best I've seen. Yeah.

WELLS: And you mentioned when you were listing bourbon brands, you brought up Tia Edwards, Eboni Major, Victoria Eady Butler. And so we're starting to see that there's not just like more black people in the bourbon industry, but black women are taking it by storm. And so it is becoming more diversified. And I know 01:48:00you also mentioned earlier what the distillation program is really important for students to know the history of the bourbon industry as well. Are there other changes that you want to see happen in the in the bourbon industry or other areas that you think need to be improved or addressed?

SANDERS: I guess probably access to. I'd like to see people being more, what's a good word, let me think. I like to see people being more honest about where it really came from. I'd like to see a little bit more. I'd like to see more honesty. I know a lot of people are trying to get into the bourbon industry and they're putting it in barrels and they say, you know, they're putting it in there and it's coming out in five, six, seven, eight years. You know, but where did it, where did you really learn that from?

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: I like to see more honesty about the fact of the matter that even 01:49:00though I was I saw that still in when I was little and I saw that there. That was in my community. We're a black community. So where did it go from there? You know, somebody that somebody that somebody else tells somebody. And I just like to see a lot more people be honest about it. You know, you go back and look at some of the movies, especially when they you know, they were talking about slavery and they were talking about during the times when people were using music for codes and, you know, and all those times, there's a whole lot of history that people don't want to be really honest about. And I like I really like to see, you know, you give it's give credit where credit is due. I would like to from the standpoint of. I'd like to see it open up more. I'd like the, not have so much. Not have so much regulation to the point that if you wanted it 01:50:00or I wanted to be able to learn about it and learn about it, then let that happen. You know, students take off the restrictions. You know, it's, it's, it's an industry that's there and it's wide open. I think sometimes we can put so many restrictions on things to the point and to the point that people just say, oh just forget it. I'm not going to worry with it. So, you know, we just need to be concerned about what restrictions we will and they'll be one sided. You know, don't do something for someone to not do it for the other. You know, if you're going to do it for this one over here, then you do the same thing for the person across the street. Don't be so one sided. And it's, it's, like it's like a barbershop. I remember when I was growing up, people would cut and there were barbers and you had the little guy across the street and he was just trying to 01:51:00make a few dollars. And then the regulations came and then the guys were cutting hair and then the little guy across the street trying to make a little extra money, rather than going in, calling, go get him, bring him over and teach him what you did and then help him get through school. You know, we just need to help each other. You know, don't, don't just hammer down, you know, be a little bit more. Try to educate people. Tell them what you know, because there's enough of it. I promise you, we can't drink all of the bourbon. It'll always be there. You know, who was it? Was it Very Old Barton that had the crash? And it all went into the, you know, the barrels crash, the warehouse fell. But you know what? They have not to this day, lost a dime from all of those barrels that they lost. 01:52:00There's too much of it out there, same thing, you know, it's the barbershop. There's too many people cutting hair. Just go get them. Teach them what you know. Help them get their license and move on.

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: Too much that there's too much bickering back and forth. Who says, she said I was here. They weren't here. You know, what's that saying? Can't we all just get along? Yeah, it's too much of it out there. Let's just, let's just help each other and move on.

WELLS: So I know we're coming up on our time and I don't want to keep you over. One last question that I had is we talked a bit about organizations, like the Kentucky Black Bourbon Guild. And you said that in the last three years, you've learned a lot. Are there certain materials that you would like to see created in these organizations that help enhance the learning process for people who are new to bourbon or just want to learn more about the art of bourbon rather than, 01:53:00you know, just tasting it?

SANDERS: Well, I hope you take this back to them, because it sure would be if KBBG if the Kentucky Black Bourbon Society would get their book to get, get, get, get a book put together, put together a book that says this is the process, this is what you learn, and they need to have their own certification. You know, there's a, there's a, you know, the thief that they've got, there's a certification for you to become a bourbon. I'll get that. I'll get there. And so they do this in Louisville. You go. It's expensive.

WELLS: --mm hmm--

SANDERS: I think Kentucky Black Bourbon Guild is at that level. I mean, we need, we don't need to just have that one. We need to have that certification. And that certification, you know, everybody has, everybody, anybody that's into it as much as we should be able to as and I say we are because I'm a member of Kentucky Black Bourbon Guild. We should, we should have our own periodical and 01:54:00we should have our own certification that says that, you know, that we've gone through this education program. We'll make part of the Kentucky State University Fermentation and Distillation Program part of that. You know, it needs to be a joint effort between the two of us to pull together, you know, where people can feel knowledgeable about it and feel comfortable about it and be comfortable to talk about it. Oh, yeah. You should definitely think they should. You know that we should have more written communication, more written periodicals about it.

WELLS: That's a, that's a great piece of advice. And yes, so, you know, Jan and I are collaborating and we're both members of the Kentucky Black Bourbon Guild, too. And so they were actually one of the organizations that sent the letter of support for our grant application. And so we are, what our plan is to take all 01:55:00of the interviews we do and as you notice, I ask you questions about literacy because we want to, one of our outcomes is that we either figure out how to produce or assist organizations, or other black women in producing like materials like textual materials, whether it be about mentorship or navigating the bourbon industry or just helping people help other black women learn about the bourbon industry. So that is something really tangible that we'd be happy to take back to KBBG and talk to them about.

SANDERS: That's great. I think that's wonderful. I think. Yeah, that's, that's down the right path.

WELLS: Is there anything else you want to add on the official record?

SANDERS: No, I can't think of anything else. I think. I think you've done well. You should probably should do. I don't know how many more interviews that you have to do, but you definitely know how to pull that information out of people. 01:56:00You make people feel comfortable. And I really appreciate that. Thank you.

WELLS: Thank you. I'm super excited. This was my first one of this project. So, yes, I was excited that I got to when you said Valentine's Day, I was like, let me jump on this before Jan. I thought it was great. I loved hearing about your childhood and everything that you're doing. Yes, I have, so I'm actually going to be interviewing Eboni Major in like two weeks.

SANDERS: --oh, wow--

WELLS: So, yeah, I'm excited to talk with her. But, yeah, this this has been really fun. And we could talk more at Jakes on Wednesday.

SANDERS: That's right. That's exactly right. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you thought so. I said I was you know, you made it very comfortable. And the fact of the matter that you made it personable so that that makes it helped, that helps a whole lot because, you know, people can talk about themselves a whole lot better and they, you know, they can make up stuff.

WELLS: Yeah. When you, when you mentioned Westerns, I was like, oh, yeah, this 01:57:00is my comfort zone. Cause my grandpa, when I visit him, he still makes me watch Westerns. And if I change the channel, he's like, "little girl Westerns is on," I'm like, "it's not a new episode."

SANDERS: It's not a new episode. No, there's not. And as a matter of fact, haven't have seen this one. Like the 101th time.

WELLS: --yeah--

SANDERS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like Andy. It's like Andy Griffith.

WELLS: Yeah.

SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah.

WELLS: Some of the things you were telling there really made me feel comfortable with you. And just like feel more related to the topic. I've heard, I've heard stories like this before.

SANDERS: --yeah--

WELLS: Thank you so much, especially because for the whole 2 hours, I know you have so many things to do and so many other.

SANDERS: Oh, it went pretty fast.

WELLS: Yeah, it did go by fast. But we really appreciate it. And we'll, you 01:58:00know, after we finish out the interviews and start collecting more information, we could touch base again about like what other materials or initiatives people have suggested and like how we could actually make them, produce something out of them.

SANDERS: Okay. All right. Thanks a lot!

WELLS: Enjoy the rest of your day.

SANDERS: Alright, you too.

WELLS: Bye!