Interview with Courtney Emery, February 22, 2022

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JWELLS: Hello, my name is JWells. I'm an assistant professor of 00:01:00Writing, Rhetoric and Digital Studies and also an affiliate faculty member of the African American and Africana Studies Program. Today is February 22nd, 2022. It is my pleasure to interview Courtney Emery as a part of the Black Women in Bourbon Oral History Project, funded by the United In True Racial Equity Research Initiative. Thank you so much for joining me today. Courtney, I wanna begin by hearing about your family origins and a little bit about how you--where--how and where you grew up.

EMERY: Um, yeah, I grew up in Radcliff, Kentucky. Um, my dad was in the military um, and for basically all of my childhood --(laughs). Um, and he got stationed at Fort Knox and that's how my family ended up in Kentucky. Um, my parents are originally from Charleston, South Carolina. Um, I have a twin sister. I have an older brother who is nine years older than me and an older sister who 00:02:00is five years older than me. Um, and then I moved to Lexington to attend UK.

JWELLS: Awesome. So are your--do you have other family in Lexington? Or are they still in parts of Kentucky or other places?

EMERY: So my parents are still in um, Radcliff, Kentucky. My brother lives in Brooklyn, New York. Um, my older sister is also in Radcliff right now. And then my twin sister lives here, Lexington.

JWELLS: Okay, so you said that you came to Lexington for UK. Um, before we start talking about your experience at UK, I want to know a little bit more about um, where like--your elementary school experience and like middle school and high school.

EMERY: Yeah, sure. So um, I went to school um, at Meadowview --(laughs)-- in Radcliffe, Kentucky. It was a very diverse environment, I feel, 00:03:00because we are so close to a military installation um, and so people are, you know, get stationed there from all over the country. And so I think that contributed to having a pretty diverse, uh you know, upbringing in that--in that sense. Um, went to middle school, I did marching band, I played the clarinet. Um, and then in high school--I attended my high school for two years--and then I actually was uh, selected to join Gatton Academy at Western Kentucky University. So I did my last two years at--in high school actually at Western Kentucky, um, kind of dual high school student, but also college student. Um, and through that program I was able to get um, 60 credit hours um, and put me basically two years head um, as far as college.

JWELLS: Okay. So I'm um, fairly new to Kentucky, so I'm not familiar with that program. Did it require you to like, stay on campus? Like really immersed in the college life. Or did you do the dual credit from home?

EMERY: No. So I actually moved on to WKU's campus--

JWELLS: --okay--

EMERY: --as a junior in high school and completed my high school education through that program. Um, so it was almost like being a full-time college student, except for-- because we were, you know, minors --(laughs)-- um, they had a little bit more restrictions, like we had curfews and dedicated study time and all that type of stuff to really kind of help us succeed in that program. But other than that, we were taking a full college load. Um, I think my entire time there I was taking anywhere between 22 to 24 credit hours per semester.

JWELLS: Um, and how far was it from Radcliffe, Kentucky?

EMERY: Uh, Bowling Green--I would say about an hour and a half.

JWELLS: Okay, okay

EMERY: -----------(??), yeah.

JWELLS: So what was that like leaving high school and going to live in a dorm and being away from your parents?

EMERY: It was definitely experience um, luckily my twin sister also 00:05:00got into the program--

JWELLS: That was going to be my next question --(laughs)--

EMERY: yeah --(laughs)-- and so, you know, it was a whole process. We had to interview, we had to submit like our SAT scores, transcripts from high school um, there were several different interviews. We have to do some essays and I remember throughout the entire process they kept asking us like, well how would you feel if one of you got in and the other didn't? And you know, of course our answer was like, well, you know, we would be happy for our sister, but, you know, kind of sad for ourselves. You know (laughs) that didn't work out. But, fortunately we both got in. And so I feel like whereas other people who were probably leaving behind everything, I kind of had that built in support system because she was coming with me (laughs).

JWELLS: Um-hm. And did you--when did you know that you wanted to go to college?

EMERY: Always--

JWELLS: --always?--

EMERY: --yeah, it never seemed-- it just seemed like the natural next step , always. Like I knew for sure after graduating high school, that 00:06:00college would be the next step. And then, of course, when the Gatton Academy opportunity came about, that just kind of solidified it.

JWELLS: How was education and higher education talked about in your household growing up?

EMERY: Well, both of my parents had bachelor's degrees growing up. Um, my dad had actually gone back to school as a nontraditional student. And I remember, you know, he went to U of L. I remember him driving up to Louisville, uh you know, to take night classes and stuff like that. I remember going to his graduation and my mom also had a bachelor's degree. And so I think it was always like, this is what you do. You know, you --(laughs)-- you get higher education and that opens up um, you know, other opportunities for you. Um, and so I think seeing that examples from my parents just always made it seem like that was just the natural next step.

JWELLS: Um-hm. What was it like getting to attend your dad's graduation? That's so cool.

EMERY: Oh, well I was young, I was probably in elementary school at 00:07:00the time, but I remember it just being exciting, you know, all the pomp and circumstances that come with a graduation and that--if I recall, that was like the first time I'd experienced something like that. Um, but yeah, I just remember being an exciting time and being able to be a part of it and just being so happy that he had been able to accomplish something that, you know, I know he'd worked really hard.

JWELLS: And so you said you always knew that you wanted to go to college. Did you or what--what did you feel like you wanted to be um, when you were little?

EMERY: Yes, so um, I think as a child, um, I think I wanted to be like a teacher. And I think a lot of kids wanna do that because that's what you see. You know, you go to school every day and you see the teachers and so that's what I wanted to do. And then as I got a little bit older, I started looking into opportunities like in the medical field. Um, and I had kind of settled on wanting to be like a physician's assistant because I wanted to be in the medical field, but I knew I didn't want to be in school that long to become a 00:08:00doctor. So that seemed like the next, you know, option. Um, and then with the Gatton Academy, that program is geared towards uh mathematics and science.

JWELLS: Okay.

EMERY: And so, you know, in that program, it's heavy on like math courses, science courses, chemistry, I mean, all those types of things. Um, and so, yeah, I was going to be a biology major, pre-med.

JWELLS: Um-hm.

EMERY: And yeah, it was decided. And then once I transferred from WKU to UK, I realized, you know, what, I don't want to do this --(laughs)--. This isn't really where my heart is. Um, and so, yeah, it kind of just morphed over time.

JWELLS: Um-hm. And so you said like where you grew up, it was pretty diverse. Um, what was it like--what was the culture like when you got to. WUK--or, sorry--Western Kentucky State.

EMERY: Western? Um, well, like I said, even though we were on the 00:09:00college campus, the program itself, I feel like they tried to keep us somewhat isolated, I guess, from the overall, you know, community.

JWELLS: Okay.

EMERY: You can be involved in, like other things that are happening at the university. But we had like our own dorm, um, we even had like ID cards that identified us as WKU students, but also as students of the Gatton Academy. And so that kind of restricted our access to certain things. Um, and so I would say just from the WKU Gatton Academy side of it, um, it wasn't as diverse--

JWELLS: --okay--

EMERY: --as the environment that I'd come from. Um, matter of fact, I think in my class--because of course, there's two class um, grades there at one time, 11th and 12th grade--in my class alone, I want to say there was four African Americans total. And me and my sister were 50% of that.

JWELLS: Wow. And so what were some of the things that you like felt 00:10:00or noticed that made you realize like, yeah, this is a different culture or like, yeah, this is different from being in a diverse classroom at home.

EMERY: Well um, I would say, like in high school I started to like experiments with my hair a lot more. Um, and so I would change my hair all the time, like different styles, you know, all the time. Um, and that wasn't something that was noticed I don't feel, when I was at my actual high school back at home. Um, but when I came there I felt like people noticed that, like it was like, oh, you've change your hair again. Like, you know, you get those comments all the time. Um, and matter of fact my senior year at Gatton, I was voted most likely to change your hairstyle or something, you know --(laughs)--, that was my, you know, class, whatever that they voted. But like, it wasn't something that I 00:11:00really thought about that much when I was back in my home high school. But it became more noticeable I felt like in that environment--

JWELLS: --right--

EMERY: --when people just really noticed it.

JWELLS: And did your parents, or do you ever remember, like your parents or anyone else talking to you and your sister explicitly about like, these are some things that you may face in this new environment? Or this is like some advice. Or was it just like you just kind of grew to figure out how to--to manage it?

EMERY: Um, I think I'd more so it just kind of grew to figure it out and navigate it. Um, 'cause, like, I didn't necessarily feel like I had to do that quite as much, you know, in my hometown. Um, but then, you know, moving to a new environment, there's always, you know, I guess, new social norms or things that you kind of have to adjust to. And so it was--wasn't a huge culture shock or anything like that, but I did feel like, you know, there was different things that I had to kind of learn over time in that--in that environment.

JWELLS: Right. Right. And I have a uh question out of curiosity um, because I just went through this like two weeks ago. So how many times when you were experimenting with your hair and it didn't work out, did you get upset? 'Cause every time I tried a new hairstyle and it doesn't work out, I cry. --(laughs)--

EMERY: Well, yeah, I think everyone experienced that. --(JWells laughs)-- I remember um, right around that time everyone was becoming natural--

JWELLS: --um-hm--

EMERY: --and like doing away with the relaxer. And I was like, oh, okay, well, I'm going to hop on this trend and like the style I would always see like on YouTube that people were doing were like twist outs.

JWELLS: Um-hm.

EMERY: And I--I can't tell you how many times I tried it, it just never worked (laughs) with my hair texture --(laughs)--. And so that would be kind of annoying. 'Cause I'm like, I'm watching videos and whenever they do it, it looks amazing. Whenever I do it it's just not working out. --(both laugh)--

JWELLS: Yeah, I just tried a-- like a trend again, like seeing stuff 00:13:00on social media or YouTube or whatever like to do heatless curls and I don't even know why cause my hair is naturally curly but at the time it was straight. So I was like, oh, I'm going to try these heatless curls. They didn't work out. And then my friends are like, you want to go hang out today? And I'm like, no, I'm not going anywhere. I'm just gonna cry. --(both laugh)--

EMERY: Like you know how much time I spent trying to make this work. --(laughs)--

JWELLS: Yeah. And now I'm not going to look the way I imagined I'd look when I go out (both laugh) -----------(??).

EMERY: Absolutely.

JWELLS: Um, so like did going-- I guess like how did that experience like this, this new culture, like being away from home, like, did it help or not help? 'Cause I'm sure y'all already had a strong bond. Like, what was that affect or impact on the relationship that you had with your sister?

EMERY: Well, I think being twins, we've always had a really just close relationship. We've gone through obviously every single stage of life together. Um, and so I think being able to do Gatton Together was just another 00:14:00thing in our life that we were excited to be able to do together. But also in that time we're still trying to become like our own people because when you're twin, you become like this package deal to other people. Um, you can't walk anywhere, you can't go anywhere with them automatically asking, hey, where is your sister? You know, it's like, oh, am I by myself not sufficient? --(JWells laughs)--. And so, you know, kind of, you know, growing up and you were trying to find our own selves, our own paths, but at the same time, we're still kind of this package deal. People expect us to always be together. Um, and so I think it helped our relationship and we kind of figure out--I was like, I think when we really started developing separate friend groups a little bit and kind of, you know, going that route, but, you know, still having you know a lot of commonality and spending a lot of time together, but still also kind of finding ourselves as individuals instead of as this pair of--being twins.

JWELLS: Um-hm. Okay. So um, I know that the Gatton Program like 00:15:00introduced you to college, college life, the coursework. So how did you--did it prepare you for like full time enrollment in college? Like, was that one of the requirements that you filled out college applications there to transfer or like move on to other classes or pursue their major?

EMERY: Yes. And so I believe the option was there if you wanted to stay at WKU beyond two years of the Gatton Program. Um, but most students, I think, ended up moving on to other universities, other programs. Um, and so, like for me, I'd already been there for two years. And like I said, you're part of the campus life, but you're also kind of slightly separated from it as well. And I just felt like there was no way I was going to get the true college experience if I stayed. Um, and so that's kind of what prompted me to want to go to UK. And uh plus, you know, growing up my parents had always been huge fans of UK 00:16:00basketball and some of that. And so even prior to even knowing anything about the Gatton Academy, I always saw myself as being a UK student.

JWELLS: Um-hm.

EMERY: And so yeah, it was-- don't even think I ever spent that much time even considering staying. I knew I was going to transfer over to UK.

JWELLS: Um-hm. And what was the transition like from WKU to UK?

EMERY: It's different because uh at WKU the campus is like a closed campus, kind of like everything is like right there, walking distance. And in Lexington and at UK I feel like it's more like there's a college campus kind of in the middle of a city and it's --(laughs)-- a little bit more spread out. Maybe not so much as like UofL, but it was just a little different than just being in kind of this close campus environment, to being more in a city, I guess, environment--

JWELLS: --Um-hm--

EMERY: --that has a college campus. Um, so that was a little bit of 00:17:00adjustment kind of adjusting to that. But then also I feel like because I had already been living on a college campus and kind of experiencing college life, I kind of felt like I wasn't a true freshman either. Um, so, you know, you have people who are literally just graduating high school and coming to a college campus for the very first time. So even though UK was new to me, I didn't have that same lens. That I think, you know, people graduating from high school and going to college for the first time had. Um, and so I think in that sense it kind of hindered me because at that point I was already two years into college and you know, the itus starts to set in --(JWells laughs)-- and I mean I'm excited to be here, but I'm also like thinking about graduating, like, what can I do to get out and be done with school? Um, and so I feel like, whereas other people were just so excited to be away from home and to be experience all these other--I'd already had kind of that experience a little bit.

JWELLS: Was the um--what was the transition with like diversity like? 00:18:00Was, you know, did it appear kind of like in terms of ratio the same at UK or like was UK more or less diverse?

EMERY: Hm, I would say, I mean, when I'm talking about diversity at WKU I'm keeping that very, I guess narrowed down to the Gatton Academy World. Um, campus overall, I think it was relatively diverse and I would say that that's probably equivalent to UK's experience, yeah.

JWELLS: Um-hm. Okay. And so you um, said, like when you transferred, like you no longer wanted to be biology pre-med. So what did you study at UK and how did you decide what you wanted to study?

EMERY: Um, well, yes, I decided-- I think I had done maybe a semester, I might even have done a full year um, going towards the biology 00:19:00pre-med. And then actually I was diagnosed this summer going into um--transferring into UK, I was diagnosed with type one diabetes and I spent that entire summer in and out of doctors' appointments. Every time I went to a doctor's appointment, I left with another appointment scheduled and being in that hospital environment that much made me realize, I don't think I actually want to work in this type of environment. This isn't really what I want to do. Um, and so then I'm not really sure what drove me to business, um, but I just thought, okay, well, entrepreneurship, that's something that's kind of interested me as well. Um, and so going into business and I knew that when I kind of switched to that type of course load, it clicked. I was like, yeah, this is exactly where I belong. This is what I want to be studying.

JWELLS: Did you-- were you engaged or participated in like any 00:20:00extracurriculars at UK like clubs or organizations?

EMERY: No. Honestly, I wish I would have, but like I said, I think because I had transferred there from after already being in college for two years, I was just focused on doing the coursework, graduating. Um, and then of course uh, spending-- I think after having a year under the biology program, it ended up tacking on an extra year when I switched--

JWELLS: --Um-hm--

EMERY: --degree programs. And so I think at that point I was even more hyper focused on school and finishing and nothing else. --(laughs)--

JWELLS: Um-hm. And where did your sister end up going? Did she go to UK too?

EMERY: She also went to UK. Um-hm.

JWELLS: Okay. And so then um, at what point did you decide that you wanted to go to graduate school because you have an MBA, correct?

EMERY: Yes, um, it was, it was a couple --I think-- Well, I knew I 00:21:00wanted to go and get my MBA. That's always kind of just been the long-term goal. Once I um, switched to business, a business degree. Um, my immediate plan was to continue right out of college and just go right into that. But I ended up taking a little bit of a break and then went back after that and was able to finish it through an online program.

JWELLS: Okay. Did you take a break to um, work or like you took time off and then--EMERY: No, I was working, I was working full time. By the time I went back to school to get my MBA, I was at a company called (??) Pearl Interactive Network in Winchester, Kentucky, as their HR generalists. Um, and I knew that I--it was time for me to go back to school because I was wanting to kind of advance in my career. I knew that the company I was currently with wasn't where I wanted to be long term. Um, and so going back to school seemed like the right time at that point.

JWELLS: And did you continue working full time while you were going 00:22:00through your MBA program?

EMERY: Yes--(laughs)--. Um, and so I--it was an online program; I think it was--I remember--I think it was like quarters instead of semesters? And I would take like two courses every um, quarter and I would go to work full time and then spend my evenings and weekends doing coursework and assignments and all that type of stuff. So yeah, full time. --(laughs)--

JWELLS: What um--so like what was graduate school like? Like in terms of the course load and switching from being in-person to learning fully online?

EMERY: Um, I liked the online environment. I like the flexibility, which is why I had chosen to pursue a program that was online um, simply because they could work around my full-time schedule. Not working wasn't an option, you know, I had bills and everything else to pay. So, I needed to be able to find something that worked around my actual work schedule. Um, so the online was 00:23:00absolutely no problem whatsoever. Um, most of the courses were asynchronous. I think I had like one professor who had these like Saturday morning virtual class meetings and so that worked perfectly, you know, having that opportunity. But I really liked the MBA program because at that point your like, highly specialized. The things that you're learning about are things that actually interested me.

JWELLS: Um-hm.

EMERY: And so, you know, the material and all that stuff I completely enjoyed. Um, and I feel like it really kind of flew by, like it was an eighteen-month program. And before I knew it, I was done. --(laughs)--

JWELLS: Were there like resources or networks that you established or were able to use from UK um, that helped you like navigate the graduate school um, experience or like, is that something that you, you know, figured out later on your own when you decided to go?

EMERY: Yeah, I was able to just figure it out on my own. Um, like I said, I was really--I was working full time, so I knew I needed like an online only program. Um, my mom had actually graduated from McKendree University with a bachelor's degree, they have a satellite campus in Radcliff, Kentucky. So that's how I was kind of familiar with them and their actual campus is in Illinois. And um, so, yeah, I think I was kind of already familiar with that name. And when I started kind of researching online programs, that kind of led me back to them and it just worked out with my current life situation.

JWELLS: Okay. So I want to talk a little bit more about your um--the job that you just mentioned, because you said it was a HR position as well. So like when you were studying business, did you know that you wanted to go into human resources?

EMERY: So that, actually, backing up a little bit, all through my experience at UK, I worked part time at Toys R US. So, retail environment. And I 00:25:00started there shortly after moving to Lexington to attend UK and it was just like a seasonal, holiday position and they hired me on after the season and then I was kind of promoted to the front desk. Um, and then from there we were going into another holiday season and they had an HR department supervisor, and she needed an HR assistant.

JWELLS: Um-hm.

EMERY: And so I just kind of asked them, I was like, well, can I do it? I'm kind of interested in that. And I'm going to school, you know, for business administration and they're like, okay, sure. And so that was like my first HR experience in a retail environment, and most of it was centered around recruitment. Um, obviously, you know, building up headcount for the seasonal time. Um, and then that next holiday season, I was promoted to the actual HR department supervisor. Um, and so that's where I stayed all 00:26:00through my experience at UK up through graduating. Um, and then I would say a few months or a month or so after graduating, I was contacted by a recruiter for a staffing agency who was trying to fill an HR assistant role with Jim Beam.

JWELLS: Okay.

EMERY: And so, you know, I graduated at that point. I'm like, okay, I think it's time to take that next step. And even though it was through a staffing agency, I felt like it could open up additional opportunities. Um, and so I was there for--and I was commuting from Lexington to Frankfort, so it's like a 45-minute drive. Um, but at the time it seemed completely worth it because it's like, okay, well, I think this is definitely the career path that I'm on and this is kind of next step. Um, so I was there for I think about four or five months and I got contacted by another recruiter who was trying to fill a position in Winchester, Kentucky for an HR generalist role. So naturally, HR 00:27:00assistant, HR generalist, that's kind of the next step in that, you know, and this was a full-time position. So not through a staffing agency it was a direct hire. And so they hired me on and Winchester was a little closer to home as well. And that environment is where I got my very first full HR, you know, experience. So I was doing everything from benefit administration, obviously recruitment, onboarding, training, um, you know, lead management, employee relations, anything in HR I was kind of dabbling in all of those different areas. And while I was there, I ended up getting promoted to senior HR generalist.

JWELLS: Okay. So there's a trend, like you climb up the ladder real fast, like you're always taking opportunities. And so I think that's awesome. It 00:28:00is making me I want to hear more about like so--because you're--when you said that your--this assistant position came up when you were at Toys R US, like you're still an undergrad, but you're like, hey, can I do this? Um, what has it been like, especially from an early age, being a black woman who is in uh an authority position? Especially like with recruiting and working with like other um, employees um, and kind of working in between like employees and then like other administrators and other people in positions of authority. What has that experience been like um, from the beginning to like up to recently?

EMERY: Hm. Well, I would say early on in my career, it wasn't necessarily the fact that I was a minority. You know, in that situation, I felt like it was more so my age that would become more of a hindrance than anything. Because I felt like, sometimes I was like, okay, I'm still in college, but 00:29:00technically I'm the supervisor. So, you know. And so, you know, you have people from all walks of life, you know, who are working in these positions. And so I felt like that was kind of one hurdle I had to overcome how to get people to follow me, how to get people to trust me, even though a lot of times I'm younger than them. Um, I even experience that when I had moved on and was working in that position in Winchester, you know um, we were a facility where we would go from 150 employees up to our peak of 450--500 during our seasonal time frame. And so, you know, lots of employees or lots of different things that we're having to juggle. And I'm dealing with managers and supervisors who would be, you know, ten years older than me. And so sometimes gaining their respect, I feel like was the hardest hurdle that I had to overcome because I think maybe sometimes because of my age, I thought, well, maybe she doesn't know she's talking about or maybe they just know better than I do. And I'm 00:30:00having to come to them and talk to them about, you know, employment law and, you know, lead management. And no, we actually can't do that. You know, that--that's illegal or, you know, we can't do this or that's discriminatory or, you know, whatever. And I'm having to communicate that to them. And I would get a lot of pushback. And um, I think more than anything, I had to learn to, whenever I address them on an issue, I need to know what I'm talking about. I need to be able to point them to facts or additional resources that back up what I'm telling them so that they can see that, okay, she actually knows what she's talking about. And I have to be able to build that a little bit, sometimes over time, until they realize that, okay, no, she actually knows what she's doing, she knows what she's talking about, and we can trust what she's telling us.

JWELLS: And so I know that, you know, getting the MBA helps you to become more informed of like, you know, here-- you know, here's this information that both helps you do your job, but also like helps you find like evidence or whatever to support, like back up what you're saying. Um, but like what other, if 00:31:00any, like resources or support systems did you have to help you again, like figure this out. Like this is how you have to establish your credibility or like this is how, you know, you have to manage these people so that you are gaining their respect like you intend, or not, you know, and not coming off as disrespectful.

EMERY: Well, I will say that in that role in particular, I had my--my boss, she was an HR manager. And honestly, she became a mentor to me. You know, she'd been in the field for a very long time. And I would say she kind of almost took me under her wing. Like uh she was available to answer questions that I had, you know, I could run things past her, you know, she would kind of coach me in different things that I could, um, you know, how I could better communicate to managers or how I could deal with those types of situations. And I feel like I think that's the one thing that I've had throughout my career that has really helped me. Finding mentors that I could go to and be like, okay, I'm 00:32:00struggling with this particular issue. And yes, she happened to be my boss. But even now, to this day and, you know, I haven't actually worked with her for, you know, six plus years, even down to this day, if I have an issue or something comes up, I can call her and be like, hey, I'm dealing with this thing. Have you ever experienced this? Like, how would you handle it? And so, I would say in my career I've been able to identify those people who could assist me when I'm kind of running into like roadblocks or needing advice.

JWELLS: Okay, I'm glad you brought her up, because I do want to ask another question about um, her later, because I noticed when I was researching you that she has been really pivotal um, in your career. So one thing that you mention is that, when I asked--when I posed the initial question, you said that early on you think that, well, you know, it was your age, not that you were a minority. How did you--how were you able to tell the difference?

EMERY: Well, in that particular environment, there were lots of 00:33:00minorities. I wasn't--

JWELLS: --Okay.

EMERY: --I mean, there--it wasn't equivalent, I would say, but there was more. And so I don't think it was the fact--Like, matter of fact, the facility manager was an African-American male and he was older. And I don't feel like he had--he ran into some of the same issues that I ran into. So because of that and there was also another female who was in a supervisory position who I don't feel like ran into those issues that I was running into. And she was older. So I really felt like it had nothing to do with, you know, questioning, you know, the color of my skin. I felt like it was really the fact that she's younger. She doesn't you know, she's just graduated, you know, she's just a few years out of college, you know, and I've been doing this, you know, thing for a while. And then when you're in HR, that puts you in a position where you might not have these supervisors and managers reporting directly to you. However, they do have to kind of listen to you because indirectly, you know, you kind of have 00:34:00to manage them. Um, and so I felt like it was more of an age situation than anything else.

JWELLS: Okay. Thank you for sharing that. I--I--one of the goals of these interviews and this project is to come up with like resources and materials and just like advice to help other Black women in the bourbon industry navigate uh like the industry, but also just like positions where they are a minority. And like you're saying in multiple ways, like maybe it's because of their age, maybe it's because of their gender or the color of their skin. And I think it does help to be able to identify like, you know, if I am feeling push back or I'm feeling uncomfortable or I'm not feeling respected, like to be able to pinpoint exactly why is it--

EMERY: Exactly.

JWELLS: --yeah, where is it coming from? Um, okay so you're--what you're describing is like you got into like the HR business pretty 00:35:00early--pretty early on, like grab this opportunity and then opportunities kept presenting themselves and you kept grabbing them and so you were able to transition. So um, I want to shift over to talking specifically about your move to Four Roses.

EMERY: Okay.

JWELLS: Yes, go ahead.

EMERY: I'm going to say, um, I did not know that they were hiring at the time. Um, you know, outside of working for Jim Beam for a short stint that I had--that I had. I wasn't very familiar with the bourbon industry really at all, which I feel like is almost embarrassing since I grew up in Kentucky--(laughs)--. But I really wasn't that familiar with it. And um, I was actually contacted by a recruiter um, and I can't remember if it was Indeed or LinkedIn, but she contacted me and they had posted the position, but they had done so confidentially. So, the name of the company wasn't listed. Um, and so she contacts me and tells me that, hey, we have this senior HR generalist 00:36:00position available and, you know, she wanted to know if I wanted to meet basically and discuss it. And so, I ended up meeting with her and, you know, she disclosed the company sent me the job description and all that type of stuff and I was highly interested because in my current role as senior HR generalist, it was kind of a high turnover, high volume, very recruiting-focused environment. Even though I was getting exposure to a lot of different areas in HR, this position was going to allow me even more exposure into that area and then also into a unionized environment, which I, um, you know, I kind of had a little bit of experience with from Jim Beam, but that was just an HR assistant, so I wasn't dealing with a lot of those types of things. In this role I would get to do a lot more of that. Um, and so the interview process was actually very extensive. Um, if I recall correctly, I did a phone interview with the recruiter. And then from there I did a phone interview with the HR manager, and I 00:37:00would say we ended up actually meeting twice 'cause we ran out of time on the first phone interview. And so, we scheduled like a follow up. Um, and then I had to come on site for an on-site interview. And I believe that process was like about 4 hours. Um, it was a panel interview, and it included the HR manager, the recruiter, the CFO. And then there was also an operations manager that was in that panel interview. And I did the panel. They also had me do like an activity where I had to write a correspondence that we would be sending out to employees notifying them of--I can't even remember what it was, but I was notifying them of something, and I had to type up a correspondence. And then they also took me on a tour of the facility, of the distillery. So, all together was 00:38:00like about a four--or five-hour interview process. Um, and I forgot one step before that, I was contacted by another consultant that they worked with to do a personality assessment. So, there was an actual online assessment that I had to take, and then it was followed up with another kind of informal conversation. I wouldn't even call it interview with the consultant --(laughs)--. And so, there was multiple steps. It was a very lengthy process, probably the most thorough, lengthy process, interview thing I've ever done --(both laugh)--. So naturally, when the HR manager called me, to actually offer the position, I was thrilled because I was like, thank goodness I've just done this entire process --(laughs)--. It would have been very disappointing had they not selected me.

JWELLS: Yeah. That is intense --(laughs)--

EMERY: Yes --(laughs)--

JWELLS: So, um, I have so many questions. Okay. So, you--you mentioned before, like in your initial HR roles, like they kind of increase. You said before it was like recruiting and then you did some stuff with the benefits. So like in HR this role, like what all you know, what does that encompass? Like what is your--your day to day look like?

EMERY: So at the time when I was hired in, um, once again, it was a true generalist role. I was kind of dabbling in a lot of--a little bit of everything. Um, so employee relations, benefit, administration, leave management, um, you know, dealing with um, some payroll a little bit in there, um, obviously being a new facility and actually having to interpret um, collective bargaining agreements and, you know, meet with union employees and discuss things like that and provide--I would get clarity, I guess, on different items within the collective bargaining agreement. Um, a lot of recruiting was still 00:40:00involved in this role. Um, and I think when I first started out, I was doing more hourly recruiting and then eventually I started taking on, you know, salary and administrative recruiting the longer that I had been there. Um, policy development as far as, you know, helping to develop that, but also documenting processes. So, writing SOP's, I was doing a little bit of everything.

JWELLS: Okay. So, you um--you mentioned like in your interview, you had to do this activity where you had to write correspondence and then you just mentioned like policy documents. Like I'm also like, as a literacy scholar, I'm really interested in um, the type of materials people are creating and the writing they're engaging in. So like what--what other types of writing do you have to engage in for this role?

EMERY: Um, so, outside of documenting processes, writing or 00:41:00developing policies, like for example, last year we had a whole project where we updated our employee handbook. Um, and so really going through there and actually writing and updating content um, as far as that goes. We send out a lot of memos to the employee workforce, you know, updates, things like that that are going on. Um, and then, of course, you know, just regular, you know, emails corresponding with other managers, um, documenting, um, you know, any type of employee relations investigations that I do. So, you know, I meet with, you know, witnesses or I'll meet with complainants and I will, you know, take notes um, and uh write up recommendations. Um, so a lot of times, especially early on in my career there, I would actually conduct the investigation and then send my final write up and recommendations on to the next level HR manager for her to review and then kind of give feedback on how she would best want the 00:42:00situation resolved. Um, and then I would say just meeting minutes are something that we try to keep really thorough records on. So typing up any type of, you know, conversations that we had with employees, you know, keeping notes on all of those types of things. So, I mean, it varies throughout the course of the day. It depends on just what's going on.

JWELLS: Um, in terms of like recruitment, what kind of people are y'all looking for?

EMERY: Really um, I feel like this is something that we've been able to further develop since I've been here. Um, I think uh when I first started, they were trying--we were shifting into like kind of some cultural changes, I think we had been an organization where, you know, people have been with the company for a long time. People get promoted into roles, which I think happens a lot with smaller organizations. People get promoted into roles. We were transitioning as a company to really try to fill based on certain skill sets and skill 00:43:00gaps that we might have had. Um, and so really, you know, we started really scrutinizing job descriptions, really scrutinizing what are the key competencies that we're looking for and really scrutinizing what level of education is required. And, you know, when I first started, you know, it was like baseline. We wanted everyone who was in a managerial or salaried position to have a bachelor's degree. And I think now, you know, as time has gone on and we're kind of learning more as an organization and things like that, um, we're starting to be like, you know what, is that always required? Maybe not. Maybe we're looking at an associate's degree, you know, instead and really trying to--as a matter of fact I was literally just talking to my boss about this today, you know, really just trying to be a little bit more strategic about that and reduce barriers to entry where we can, you know, the bachelor's degree isn't necessarily required. Let's make sure that we're being more specific about what level we 00:44:00actually need so that we can open up to more potential candidates.

JWELLS: Are there, aside from the degree, which I think is a really good example and I appreciate you sharing it, are there other barriers or requirements that you've found since you've been in this role that could potentially be exclusionary?

EMERY: Hm. I would say just I don't think there's anything that we're doing that is specifically excluding a certain set of people. I think we come across a lot of different barriers. I think in general, bourbon hasn't seemed like something for minorities, for people of color. And so I think that's just one barrier that not just for us, but I think the entire industry is trying to overcome right now and really make sure that people know that, no, this is an inclusive 00:45:00industry. You know, it's open for everybody. We want diverse talent. We want to get people from all walks of life, from all backgrounds. So I think that's one thing. I think um, geographic location sometimes is another factor. Um, you know, our headquarters is in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. And, you know, and so when you're looking in that immediate area, the city of Lawrenceburg isn't a highly diverse area. Of course, we're also trying to recruit from Frankfort, Lexington, Louisville as well, to bring talent from there. But then the further you go now, you're asking people to commute long distances to be on there. Now, I think with the pandemic and the shift to more hybrid working schedules and more remote working schedules, I think that that change will ultimately allow us to have a broader reach in the type of candidates that we are uh seeing apply. I'm trying to think if there's anything else specifically. Um, I think also um, 00:46:00just as a marketing thing in general, you know, being more aware of who--who are we representing in our marketing? Because, you know, one thing I've talked about with--with my manager is, you know, people want to work where they feel represented. Um, and so how can do more of that, you know? You know, what kind of things um, can we put out there to the public where they know that we're an inclusive organization um, so that people feel more welcome to apply for opportunities that come available? So I think there's a couple of things that, you know, we're trying to overcome right now, but I think we're definitely moving in the right direction in order to ultimately build a more diverse workforce.

JWELLS: Okay. And is it um--is it like a part of your--is it standard 00:47:00for your role to be--make an attempt to like, identify these barriers? Or is that just an initiative that you've taken on your own? Like, hey, here are some things that I've noticed that I feel like we could address or maybe do better or differently.

EMERY: Um, so we are a Japanese owned company, and we are owned by Kirin out of Japan. And I know that they have different initiatives that they have been, you know, focused on as well. And from my understanding, um, you know, increasing diversity and inclusion and things like that is one of their focuses. And I think around that same time I was also kind of going to my boss and being like, hey, I feel like we really need to work on this. We really need to find a way to get more diverse applicants to actually apply to positions. And so I feel like it's been coming from both directions, I guess, the very, very top and then also from my position and kind of speaking up about things that, you know, 00:48:00I've noticed or things that I think that we could be working on um, because, you know, I've been there for quite some time and I realize that, you know, every single time we are interviewing, like phone interviews, bringing candidates on site for, you know, panel interview, I wasn't seeing a ton of diversity and candidates who were actually getting moved onto those stages. And I'm like, why not? Then it turns out, well, we're not really getting a lot of those candidates to even apply for positions. Um, and so, you know, how can we, you know, are there different things that we can tap into to really reach that particular audience? You know, are there other things that we might need to be doing out in the market um, to be able to fill these roles? You know, things that we haven't considered and trying to really brainstorm what can we do to bring in more diverse talent? And so I think over time that has been included more and more into my position. Um, but also, I'll be very honest, I've had candid 00:49:00conversations with my boss as well that, you know, as much as I would love to lead Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I), and you know, bring up, you know, new ideas and resources, I didn't want to be the face of DE&I at Four Roses.

JWELLS: Yeah.

EMERY: And so, you know, having those conversations with her, as well, you know, like, maybe I can be the more background person and you can be the face of it, you know. But I was like, I don't feel like I should have to be the one pulling the organization along when I'm the only African American in a position of leadership.

JWELLS: Right. Right. Um, and again, like commendable to--to have that conversation because sometimes it--I think in a lot of positions and just a lot of situations, um, minorities like don't feel--don't know how to have that conversation or initiate it. And so they kind of just get pulled into 00:50:00that extra labor. Um, and then it becomes a, you know, unwritten standard or requirement of their role that may not always be compensated accordingly.

EMERY: I think as a female, as an African American, I feel like I don't want to just turn a blind eye to things that I see that need to be improved upon. I want to assist where I can, and I want to bring up ideas and suggestions and be the voice in the room that is like, you know, raising her hand and saying, well, you know, this is something that we can work on is something we can improve on. Because I feel like I have that unique perspective because of who I am, whereas other people in the room probably do not. Um, and so I feel like I have that obligation to raise my hand and speak up. But at the same time, I don't want to be, like you said, that person who's automatically okay, well, this is your task. It's all you now, you know. Um, and you know, and from what I've learned and, you know, kind of doing different courses and things like that 00:51:00about DE&I, it is not a one person thing. You have to build buy-in. You have to--and it has to be from the top. And obviously you can't change everything overnight. But I know for a fact that I can't do it 100% by myself. I need to build that buy-in from the entire organization.

JWELLS: Um-hm. I have two follow up questions. The first is, was your--or how did your boss receive that information from you? What was like, their reaction to the conversation?

EMERY: Oh um, I think my boss is absolutely amazing. Um, we've developed a really good relationship over the years, and I can be honest with her and I can voice my concerns with her or my opinions about things. Honestly, I feel like I've been able to develop that in every position that I've worked in um, really just by being myself and being honest and speaking up when I need to. 00:52:00Um, and yeah, so the conversation went really well. She completely understood where I was coming from and--and was perfectly fine with not making me the leader of the initiatives.

JWELLS: Awesome. Um, and then the other question I had is, so I know that you said like, these are things that we've noticed, this is things I've specifically spoken out about. Has--has there been or is there like initiatives in place to um, I don't know, like maybe alter materials or create new materials to help with recruiting um, more--a more diverse population, whether it be like gender, age or race?

EMERY: Yes. So I would say that--that over my time there, we've done a lot of, once again, this isn't something that you can just, you know, fix instantly overnight. But I feel like we have been able to implement different steps to kind of build towards that ultimate goal, which is to develop a more 00:53:00diverse workforce. So one thing was, is that we actually developed an ATS system, so we didn't actually have that before--

JWELLS: --what's ATS?--

EMERY: --uh, applicant tracking system.

JWELLS: Okay.

EMERY: So, most larger companies use it. You know, you're applying to like a Walmart or, you know, some big box chain store or some, you know, even smaller organizations use it. But it's basically just a portal that people can go in and actually apply for positions. Um, but that system alone helps you reach more people. And so um, that was one of the changes that we implemented um, last year for our hourly positions in the plan will be eventually to make that system for our salaried roles as well. Um, but that helps us reach more diverse population because we are noticing, even with our hourly positions that don't require higher education, we still weren't getting a very diverse applicant pool. And so we're like, you know, that's odd because, you know, even in those 00:54:00positions, we're not getting, you know, all of the different demographics that we feel like we should be seeing. And so that was one move that--we made that switch for other reasons as well. But that was one of the goals as well, to increase diversity, increase reach. Another thing that we did is we initiated a actual hiring assessment, which I know can be controversial. Some people say that those can eliminate qualified candidates from the process, but this particular assessment actually helped us remove some of the bias from the recruitment process. Um, so I feel like that was also a step in the right direction to help better standardize how we were determining which applicants we're moving forward with in the process um, versus it being as subjective as--as it might have been in the past. And so I feel like we've been making some changes there as well. Um, we actually also just created an actual employment page on our Four Roses website. Um, and on there we kind of 00:55:00discussed, you know, the benefits of working at Four Roses. Um, we make it very simple for how people can apply. So it used to literally just be a page that said email a resume to, you know, the HR email address. Um, but now it's a full actual portal that links to the ATS system. And we know that the website is being visited from all over. And so that helps once again when people know what positions are available, where they're at, how to apply. It makes it very simple. So I feel like we have initiated some changes and I think there'll be more changes to come. But we are really trying to look in to see how can we make sure that we're attracting as a diverse of an applicant pool as possible?

JWELLS: Okay. Um, what--I guess I should've ask this earlier--so like what are the positions? I know there's--cause like, you mentioned managerial positions. I know there's like blenders, there's um, probably like people in marketing. Like what are the positions that you're recruiting?

EMERY: Yes. So we have hourly positions and that works like in our operations. So um, we have distillery operators, maintenance employees um, and all of those are in--are unionized positions. And then at our Cox's Creek location, where we do our bottling and warehousing, we have the warehousing department. So hourly employees that are actually in charge of the barrel management as far as putting them into the warehouses, taking them out, dumping them, that whole process, and then the actual bottling line employees. We're actually running--we have two lines. We have a high speed line and then a single barrel line. So we actually have people who are doing specialized roles on the line um, to actually bottle our products. So we have those roles. And then outside of that, we have all of the typical, you know, departments. So accounting, sales, marketing, obviously HR, IT, um, and then of course in each of the operational departments in the distillery, warehousing and bottling, there's management and 00:57:00supervisors within those departments as well. And then for as far as--this is technically part of marketing--the visitor center, kind of a subgroup. More of the tourism, front facing operations. So we have hourly positions for that and then also two managerial positions at both locations for that.

JWELLS: So you have a really unique expertise in that you're, one, aware of all of these different positions that it takes to--to like run a distillery and a brand and sustain it. And then also you've been able to look at applicants and like you said, like you've see, you know, what are some barriers, what is the bias like? What, you know, what needs--what is keeping people from getting hired, but also like what may be keeping people from applying? And so I would like to hear your thoughts on what you feel um, like distillation programs and institutes at the collegiate level could do to like, maybe better 00:58:00help um, students prepare for like entering the bourbon industry. 'Cause like for instance, I interviewed someone last week and I talked about like them having a distillation program at their university and there's also like scholarships. So that helps diversify like the students who may apply to the program. Um, but beyond the training that they may get or like uh, the--especially like on the, um, I think some of the programs focus a lot on like the blending so like the chemistry and the science behind it. What else do you think they should be doing to help prepare students to enter multiple positions in the bourbon industry?

EMERY: Um, well, I'm not super familiar with uh, the actual distillation programs that universities have, but I will say, like, if we're hiring for like um, you know, some of the work in the sensory lab um, someone to do, 00:59:00you know, the actual quality control aspects of the bourbon process, whether it's at the distillate stage or at the warehousing and bottling stage. We are looking for people who have actual like chemistry degrees and backgrounds. Um, so, I would say if the distillation program is kind of just an add on to any other degree program, for our organization, that wouldn't necessarily get somebody's foot in the door into a role like in the quality or sensory, things like that, because we're looking for a specific, you know, chemistry type of background. Um, but I'll say, outside of that type of role specifically, I mean, I think it's just a matter of uh, the level that we're looking for. So I would say in our organization right now, we're trying to kind of um, fill skill gaps that we're seeing throughout the organization. And so because of that, when we're hiring roles, we're looking for very specific skills. But more 01:00:00than that, we're looking for specific experience levels. And so I know other larger organizations might be better equipped to hire an entry level positions where someone does not need to have an actual background in the field. And we do have some positions like that. Like, um, you know, in our accounting department, we've hired in several entry level roles. Um, even in marketing, we've hired in a couple of entry level roles. But a lot of times we are looking for people who have, you know, years of experience and a certain skill set already developed so they can bring that expertise to our organization. So I would say um, targeting universities, I think hasn't been a huge push for us for most of our recruiting efforts, simply because typically we're looking for individuals who actually have more experience under their belt versus somebody who's just graduated.

JWELLS: Okay. Um, and so you mentioned that you--even growing up in 01:01:00Kentucky--you didn't have--you didn't know a lot about bourbon before you went to--started working at Jim Beam. And then you've been at Four Roses for quite some time. So--and you've--you've seemed to navigated both of those positions in the bourbon industry well. And so, what advice do you have for other black women that are entering um, and navigating the bourbon industry?

EMERY: Oh, that's a tough one --(laughs)--. Um, I would say just from my experience being knowledgeable um, and then also being--being knowledgeable and also being willing to learn. I mean, I didn't--even when I first started at Four Roses, I did not know everything. I was completely open to asking questions and I was open to constructive feedback. Like, I would actually go out of my way to ask for constructive feedback. Um, I recall early on um, I observed 01:02:00the recruiter that we were working with doing phone interviews and, you know, trying to learn their style and how they liked them done. And then, you know, she kind of let me lead one. And I remember getting off the call, and being like, do you have any notes for me? Like, is there anything I could do differently? Is there anything I can improve? But I've been that way throughout my entire career. And I think, being open to being like, okay, I don't know everything. I--I have room to grow, I have room to develop, and I want to do that. I feel like that has helped me get further in my career because people see, okay, she wants to learn, she wants to grow, she wants to develop. And I would say my other tidbit of advice is to be vocal about your career path and where you see yourself or how you want to develop. And fortunately, I've always been in positions where I could speak to my manager and be like, you know, this is kind of where I see myself wanting to get more into, you know, doing a little bit more of this or growing in this way, this is kind of how I see my 01:03:00career path. And being vocal about that, I think has helped them help develop sometimes those opportunities that might not have been available otherwise because they knew that was an interest to me. And I made myself valuable by being willing to learn and being willing to ask questions, being willing to improve and develop. You know, I feel like opportunities have been created, you know, because of that. And so they knew where I wanted to be and they knew that I was adding value to the team and that I wanted to continue to grow and develop. And so it helped open up those additional doors.

JWELLS: So one of the things that you--one of the first things you mentioned is being knowledgeable. Where did you go to--aside from asking questions--um, to learn more about bourbon? To like, give yourself a crash course?

EMERY: Well, honestly, not knowledgeable about bourbon. Not a requirement --(both laugh)--, not a requirement at all. I mean, I feel like I learn something new about bourbon every single day that I'm there, um, you 01:04:00know, something new about the industry every single day. And going in, I knew next to-- I mean, very little. Like I didn't know that much at all. Um, but I would say just being knowledgeable of whatever field it is that you're in. Um, you know, so for me being in HR, you know, I--I'm a member of SHRM um, Society of Human Resource Management, obviously having an education background. I've had mentors throughout um, you know, my career that I could count on and to speak to and to talk things through. Um, and then I also didn't mind, you know, researching something, you know, like there's a lot of different employment laws, they interplay in a lot of different ways. I don't always know, you know, what might be interacting with the next. I have to research it more, and not being afraid to do that. Um, and so when I say being knowledgeable, I think is tapping into your available resources that you have, not being afraid to ask questions and being able to do your own research, even if you don't come to the right um, answer all the time. Being able to not come just with, a 01:05:00problem. But being able to come with, well, I've looked into this and this is a potential solution. Um, you know, that type of mindset.

JWELLS: Awesome. That's amazing advice. Um, so you mentioned earlier when you were talking about your role that like some of the things that you may have to read and write or like reports from employees um, or like recording conversations with them. In general, and between like your experience with Jim Beam and Four Roses, like what--could you describe what seemed to be the common conflicts or maybe like issues um, people have faced specifically, like maybe minorities, whether, again the age, race, or gender in the bourbon industry, have faced or like reported?

EMERY: (pause) Hm, I'd say fortunately, I haven't had any of those types of complaints, you know, due to discrimination or, you know, anything 01:06:00like that um, in--in the bourbon industry. And so, I mean, (knocks on desk) knock on wood, I haven't had to deal with that specifically. I would say in HR specifically, um, sometimes it's almost like being like a--a high school counselor --(both laugh)--. Um, and so the issues that you're encountering or things of that can be a wide range of things. But fortunately, it hasn't been due to discrimination or anything like that. Um, and so, yeah, I would say nothing specific stands out or a pattern. I mean, being in a union environment, you end up dealing with, you know, just a lot of things with union, you know, contracts and, you know, dealing with grievance processes and things like that. Um, and I would say in my role now, majority of any type of employee relation things that I deal with are more centered around collective 01:07:00bargaining agreement things than anything else.

JWELLS: Okay, awesome. Um, so you mentioned like this--your one mentor in particular, but also like you've had good relationships with your bosses. You felt comfortable asking people questions. Um, and so I kind of want to--I want to transition into uh, your blog post--that one of the blog posts you wrote. So the one titled, Don't Feel Guilty for Choosing You. And so in this post, you share this story about you telling your mentor and boss, at the time, that you are not happy in your position. And you say that you didn't want to disappoint them by leaving, but you were transparent about being miserable. And their response was that you should choose you even if you didn't--even if they didn't want to see you go, which is so awesome. Um, and so now that you're in this HR position and you're talking to other people and people, like you said, are coming to you with their grievances, or like sometimes uh 01:08:00you're--you're in this setting where you feel like you're a high school counselor, um, how do you use your role at Four Roses to help your colleagues and mentees advocate for themselves?

EMERY: Um, you know, I feel like in the HR role how all of us have to be available to listen, um, you know, and listen honestly, like I'm not forming my own opinion. I want to understand where people are coming from or what issues that they're having. And I feel like I try to look at them objectively. Now, when you're in like a union management environment, it's like you kind of have to hold the line, you know, like you're a member of management or you're a union and you're still trying to foster this, uh you know, environment of collaboration between the two parties. But in nature, I feel like you're having to navigate that even a little bit more finely because, you know, you're here for the employees. That's--they're your customers. Um, and so really just being open to listening to them, to understanding what their concerns are, 01:09:00um, you know, making sure that they know I'm available to them. Like, I know one of the things that we've done, um, you know, within the last year and a half was really making sure that our employees had our cell phone numbers, you know, that, you know, they could text us if they needed something, you know, things like that. And so just really being available and letting them know that we're here for them. Um, I think that goes a long way, you know.

JWELLS: Okay. Um, so you have pointed out--you were very graceful about it, like, I'm going to go ahead and do the major shout out that all of these roles you've been in have been because recruiters recruited you, like people want you in these roles. And so I think that that is a really, really smooth transition into your career coaching business.

EMERY: Yes, it is.

JWELLS: And like that establishes your credibility so much like people, if you want career coaching, like obviously you're effective. --(laughs)--

EMERY: -----------(??)

JWELLS: So what made you want to start your own business?

EMERY: Well, I started it around the time of, like, the height of the pandemic, and I noticed that, you know, people are trying to, like, move into other opportunities and more flexibility. And so I kind of saw an opportunity there. But beyond that, I've helped my family and my friends, you know, review their resume, I've help them prep for interviews all that type of stuff. And then when I kind of saw what was happening due to the pandemic and kind of this mass transition that people were making, I kind of saw an opportunity to actually, you know, actually put some of my expertise to use and launch my own business. Um, but yeah, that's one of the things that I talk about all the time that I was not actively looking for any of these positions that I landed myself in. You know, it would be randomly, I would get contacted, you know, over email, LinkedIn, you know, Indeed randomly about opportunities that just ended up being, you know, perfect, like just the perfect next step in my career . And so really helping other people develop their--their personal 01:11:00brand is kind of what I call it, whether that's their LinkedIn presence, making sure their hiring documents, like their resume, their cover letters, all of that is together and then really helping them be able to communicate their value add. I mean, I had not always been amazing in interviews. I specifically remember one interview--and I did not get this job--where I don't know what went wrong --(laughs)--. I felt like I could--it was like a train wreck. Like I knew that I was performing horribly in this interview, but for some reason, there was nothing I could do to stop it. Um, and so just kind of learning from my own mistakes and stumbles throughout--throughout the process, um, and then also utilizing my experience in HR to know what are hiring managers actually looking at? How are they evaluating candidates? You know, what are the things that I see on resumes that make me cringe --(laughs)--, you know, that I want to, you know, steer other people away from, you know, things like that. And so it was a combination of just my own personal experience, plus my actual 01:12:00professional experience plus my, you know, my actual degree and credentials. All of that just seemed to align to be like, you know, you could be a career coach, you could help other people navigate the career change process.

JWELLS: Can you share one of your most memorable moments so far in career coaching?

EMERY: Yes. And so, this one actually just kind of happened recently, but I made a post on social media about my promotion to HR Manager, here recently, and my mother-in-law called me up and told me that a coworker of hers had seen my posts, because it was widely shared, and had decided that she was--she works in education--decided that she was going to leave that role and pursue HR because she originally had an education in HR, got sucked into education because she really had a passion for working with children. And then after seeing my post, she was like, you know, it just really inspired me and made me 01:13:00realize it's never too late to pursue, like, what I actually want to do in life. And now she's pursuing--transitioning back into HR. And so you know that--that she wasn't a client of mine, but the fact that I was able to inspire her, uh you know, just based off of my career journey and sharing that with other people, uh was just really, really proud moment.

JWELLS: You're so effective --(both laugh)-- like, even when you're not intentionally trying to be, you're so effective. Um, so I asked this of--of your parents when we were talking about your transition from high school to early college and then to UK, about like, whether or not they had explicit conversations with you about like what it--what you may face or what you may experience as a minority in these predominantly white institutions. And so I'm wondering, have you considered if you're going--if that should be a part of your career coaching? So like if you're working with a black woman who is 01:14:00planning on entering like a predominantly white industry, like the bourbon industry, do you think like that should be an explicit conversation?

EMERY: You know, honestly, I haven't thought about that. I feel like as a society, we're becoming more and more aware of how people of color have been systematically, you know, disenfranchised, whether it's in their career, education, you know, society in general. And I feel like we're--we're kind of trying to course correct. I know this is a never-ending process, but I mean, things like um, the Crown Act, you know, protecting, you know, Black people's hairstyles. And, you know, like I will say, even just for my own experience, I locked my hair back in 2018. I did not wear my hair in that style at work.

JWELLS: Um-hm .

EMERY: I didn't actually first start going to work with my locks out and visible until probably, probably beginning of last year, 2021. And so I--'cause I just wasn't sure like how it's going to be received, like what people would think. And I think just overall, you know, watching all of the um--the uh--I'm drawing a blank. Everything that happened over last summer and the protests and all that type of stuff, I think it gave me more confidence to be like, you know what? This is who I am. If I want to wear my hair like this in its natural style, that's what I'm gonna do and I'm going to feel perfectly fine with that. Um, you know, so just helping people understand what professional is. I think, if anything, like if I have a client who is African American and they're asking about how they should wear their hair a certain way, where it how you want to wear it, because honestly, do you want to work for an organization 01:16:00that you feel like you literally can't--

JWELLS: Right.

EMERY: --wear your hair the way you want to wear it? And that's kind of--I started thinking about that for myself. I'm like, do I work for an organization where I can't wear my hair the way I want to wear it? And honestly, it's never been an issue. When I started wearing my hair out, it's never come up. It's never been asked about. It's never been like, no one's like looked at me strange. I've made up this whole thing in my head about how people were gonna respond and act. And it's been, thankfully, the complete opposite of that and so, you know, if anything, that is something that I would coach my clients if they asked about it. You want to be authentic. You want to be you, because ultimately you don't want to have to go into an environment where you feel like you have to code switch all the time, even if it's just with your hair.

JWELLS: Right. That's a great advice. Um, as someone who has both like read people's hiring materials um, and like we talked about earlier, like 01:17:00assess them, notice differences or what's missing. Like, what do you feel like um, should our needs to be created for--like to help other people navigate it. So like, like I said, one of the goals of this um, project is to help with, like, literacy of the bourbon industry. And so we talked a little bit about like the distillation programs at universities, but I'm also thinking in terms of like, the community or like there's a few different Black enthusiast bourbon organizations. There's professors like myself who are talking about the topic like, what do you think, if anything, like we should be creating or should be circulating to other Black women, um, entering this field?

EMERY: Hm. That's a tough one --(laughs). Um, I would just say in 01:18:00general, um, the interview stage is so important in any process. Um, I actually providing some coaching to an applicant that we had not too long ago who I ended up not moving forward with. But part of the thing is, is that whenever you're going through the interview stage, every single part is being evaluated. So it could be literally just how you're corresponding with the recruiter. Now, a lot of times those can be more informal, like they're--they're texting, you know, updating you that way, you know? But, you know, are you responding in a timely manner? Are you submitting the materials that they ask for in a timely manner? Like, you might not think it's a big deal, but all of those interactions are becoming--are being collected and are being used to further evaluate the process and evaluate that candidate. And so I would just say it's very 01:19:00important that people understand that whenever they're going through the hiring process, to know that every interaction you have is being evaluated, um, especially when you get to that onsite interview stage. I can't tell you the amount of times where we thought the candidate had done well leading up to that point. And then they get on site and, it's like we're meeting a different person.

JWELLS: Hm.

EMERY: And it's not the nerves. It's that, you know, they just obviously did not prepare for the interview, they didn't do any research whatsoever about the organization, about our products, about what we do here. You know, just all of those types of things. So I would just say to really make sure people are being intentional throughout the entire hiring process and preparing--um, preparing thoughtfully for the actual interview process.

JWELLS: That's really helpful and insightful because I think a lot of 01:20:00what other people have said and what I've noticed, like I'm fairly new to the--the bourbon industry, but what I've noticed is, it's a lot about like preparing the skill to like create or test or sell bourbon. Um, and then also like there is a big part of trying to raise funds to help--um, to help minority students secure spots in like these programs or training for the bourbon industry. Um, and then the other big part is like how to support them while they're in it. But I haven't heard much or like seen much about like how to you know, get them from like getting the scale to actually get in the job.

EMERY: Yeah, because I mean, we're not targeting, necessarily, people from within the industry to fill several of our positions, they can come from all over.

JWELLS: Um-hm.

EMERY: But, you know, it just really comes down to how well they're able to communicate their value add and how they're--how they're being 01:21:00perceived throughout the entire interview process. And so, you know, one thing, like, as I mentioned, if a recruiter is texting you and it might seem very informal, even if you don't have a direct response or answer at that time, maybe just sending an acknowledgment text like, okay, yeah, got it, um, I will get back to you, you know, at X and X time. But by not responding all together, you almost seem like, okay, well maybe you're not that interested in the position, you know, and if it takes you a long time to get back to them in general, you know, maybe this isn't your top choice, you know, and when you're--when you're stacking that up against the fact that there could be several highly qualified candidates, those are the things that can kind of make you drop a little bit below another applicant. So just really being intentional when you're going through that hiring process and understanding that every single stage is, you're being evaluated at every single stage, you're sending a message whether or not you intend to send a message or not. Because like I said, we're not necessarily targeting people who are coming directly from within the bourbon 01:22:00industry. And I mean, the bourbon industry itself, it is competitive. You know, a lot of people are moving from one brand to another, but a lot of times we're not necessarily targeting that. I mean, if you--if you have that background experience, it's good. But maybe you come from a completely different industry and you just really stood out as far as your ability to communicate how you can bring value and bring that skillset to Four Roses.

JWELLS: Thank you. Um, so I know that you have mentioned that you didn't--you didn't really know a lot about bourbon growing up. It's not a requirement to be knowledgeable about it in your position, um, but do you now have a personal interest? Or are you involved in the bourbon industry in any other ways aside from being in HR at Four Roses.

EMERY: Um, no, not really --(laughs). Um, you know, I think I am interested in it just from being in the industry and learning as much as I have. Um, but no, I wouldn't consider myself a bourbon enthusiast. Um, I really don't see 01:23:00myself wanting to move outside of the industry simply because I've really enjoyed my time here and all the things I've been able to learn. And then this--it's exciting. It's an exciting environment to be a part of and it's rapidly growing and there's a lot of opportunity, I think, within the industry. Um, but like I said, I would not consider myself a bourbon enthusiast, um, but it is a cool industry to be a part of, for sure.

JWELLS: What makes this industry more exciting than other ones that you've previously worked in?

EMERY: Well, I'll just say from a Four Roses-specific capacity, it's like you're actually passionate about what we're producing, what we're creating, you know, and the fact that this is a product that goes literally all over the country, you know, outside of the country, and that people are enjoying it. Um, I think that's kind of what makes it an exciting industry to be a part of. You know, I'm not developing, you know, a piece of a part that goes into a larger, you know, final end product. But we are actually developing an end product that 01:24:00then goes out to our customers. And so I think it's just exciting to be in an environment where everybody is genuinely excited about what we do and what we're--what we're creating. And I think that helps make the job more enjoyable.

JWELLS: I agree with that. I will say that any time I've heard someone talk about bourbon and Lexington, they are definitely excited --(laughs)--

EMERY: Yeah, I mean, coming from my last uh, company where it was like telecommunications and it was basically a call center for the Affordable Health Care Act.

JWELLS: Um-hm.

EMERY: I mean, yes, insurance is important, but it's not exciting (both laugh). You know, it's not exciting --(both laugh)--

JWELLS: Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Um, this has been extremely insightful. I feel like I've learned a lot about how to better support um, students entering the bourbon industry and especially other black women in like, the types of conversations that they should be confident having. Um, 01:25:00and I'm definitely reassured hearing your experience. Is there anything else that you'd like to share on the official record?

EMERY: I think we've covered it.

JWELLS: Awesome. Thank you so much. Um, so I'm gonna go ahead and pause the recording now.

EMERY: Okay.

[End of interview.]