Interview with Paul Quenon,

Partial Transcript: Give me a description of Merton the person, physically.

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says that as he aged Merton's health deteriorated. He describes a mental image he has of the way Merton walked to work like a corn sheaf, flopping from side to side. He shares several anecdotes about the way Merton behaved in the monastery.

Keywords: Father Louis; Industriousness

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Aging; Contemplation; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Monasteries; Monastic and religious life; Nature; Reading; Typewriters; Writing

Partial Transcript: Describe what a novice master does, and is it an important job in the monastery?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon describes the work of novice masters within a monastery, and Merton's positive feelings about the role. He discusses how every week Merton had to give two midweek conferences, with a longer one on Sunday afternoons where he would do scripture commentaries, while spiritual direction to the novices involved individual sessions every two weeks. Quenon mentions that he was a novice at the time who experienced these sessions himself.

Keywords: Cistercian Fathers; Father Louis; Novice master (monastic role); Religious conferences

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Death; Education; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Monasteries; Monastic and religious life; Mysticism; Self; Spirituality; Sufi; Teaching; Trappist (Ky.); Youth

Partial Transcript: What were his passions? What--I mean, I know, from professors in college, you know, I'd go, "Oh, here we go on this again."

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says Merton was particularly passionate about concrete applications to the monastic life, drawing from both Cistercian Fathers and Sufi mysticism. Quenon particularly remembers Merton's commentaries on scripture, and his reservations about critical exegesis, which was new at the time. Quenon talks about how Merton taught scripture as literature and says that the commentaries on the Book of Job, and the stories of David were particularly memorable.

Keywords: Cistercian Fathers; Critical exegesis

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Death; Deconstruction; Education; Exegesis; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Monastic and religious life; Mysticism; Sufi; Teaching; Trappist (Ky.); Youth

Partial Transcript: It may be impossible to pinpoint, but what's the most important thing you think he taught you?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon describes some of the important religious and philosophical concepts that Merton taught him during their time together. He mentions that Merton never taught a method of prayer, which often surprises visitors, and describes the teaching as more of a Montessori environment where the meditation arises spontaneously from the environment.

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Education; Meditation; Monasteries; Monastic and religious life; Nature; Prayer; Teaching; Trappist (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: Did he have hot buttons, where you--somebody would do something or say something where you'd go, "Oh, that's--that's going to make him angry or terse or whatever?"

Segment Synopsis: Quenon describes Merton's approach in the classroom, and how he did not appreciate students who tried to take over the class. He remembers that Merton was known as a free spirit, but his teaching approach was more disciplined. Quenon recalls a particular day in the Scriptorium where he and another novice were trying to communicate with each other and Merton reminded them to be silent.

Keywords: Novice masters; Scriptoriums

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Classrooms; Davenport, Guy; Education; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Monastic and religious life; Pedagogy; Silence; Teaching; Trappist (Ky.); Youth

Partial Transcript: Was he an observant monk, was he a good monk?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says Merton was observant but flexible, and shares an anecdote where Merton would stay with him and skip Choir to discuss spiritual matters after class. Quenon mentions that Merton also thought you should skip Choir if you're sick, but the undermaster disagreed. He talks about how Compline in the 1960s was basically the same as today, except that the language has changed, the Hail Holy Queen is less elaborate when it's not in Latin, but they still say it in Latin on Sundays.

Keywords: English; Grand silence; Hail Holy Queen; Latin

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Choir; Compline; Education; Illness; Languages; Liturgy; Monasteries; Monastic and religious life; Trappist (Ky.); Worship

Partial Transcript: As you've mentioned somewhat, Merton had a love for nature. Tell me that again, and did he share that love with you as novices? How did he encourage it with you?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon describes how being in nature was an important part of Merton's prayer life. He mentions several anecdotes of Merton embracing nature as part of his everyday life, and how not everyone appreciated that. Quenon says Merton advocated for cleansing your senses after mass by going outdoors.

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Agriculture; Contemplation; Education; Mass; Monastic and religious life; Nature; Prayer; Reading; Spirituality; Trappist (Ky.); Work; Youth

Partial Transcript: What--for someone who knows nothing about Merton, to attempt to understand him, are there one or two things that you--that--premises that you just must start from?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon discusses how Merton was unusual because he was both a sophisticated literary writer and a devout monk. He says that the combination of Merton's worldliness and identity as a monk was a unique combination, greater than the sum of its parts, and that Merton thought of himself as a poet. Quenon thinks he was a better essayist, but poetry enabled him to condense his thoughts and that writing poetry functioned as a connection between prayer and thought.

Keywords: Trappist monks

Subjects: Art; Artists; Authors; Essayists; Experience; Intuition; Literature; Monks; Poetry; Poets; Prayer; Theology; Worldliness; Writers

Partial Transcript: Help someone who doesn't understand the monastic life understand obedience and the role that it plays in the monastic life.

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says that monastic life attracts individualists to begin with, people who have the motivation to leave the world and family behind. He goes on to talk about how the structure of monasteries and the idea of obedience helps foster success in monastic settings. Quenon mentions that monks take a vow to practice obedience as a way to get beyond the self.

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Abbots; Communities; Free will and determinism; God; Individualism; Monastic and religious life; Obedience; Self; Trappist (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: And explain why it mystifies people that read about Merton's frustration with Dom James or with the structure of the life or not being able to transfer here or there.

Segment Synopsis: Quenon discusses why he thinks Merton remained committed to monastic life. He talks about Merton's struggles with his abbot, Dom James and his failed attempts to switch to a different abbey in South America. Quenon mentions that the novices were aware of the tensions between the two monks, and that Merton didn't make an effort to hide it because it's a natural part of life in a monastery, and wasn't scandalous.

Keywords: Dom James Fox; Ernesto Cardenale; Father Louis

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Abbots; Asia; Creativity; Eremitic life; Europe; France; Humility; Imagination; Latin America; Monastic and religious life; Obedience; Trappist (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: You mentioned a higher form of life, that's another sort of concept.

Segment Synopsis: Quenon describes the structure of the Cisterians in the 1950s, and compares them to other religious orders. He goes on to talk about the attitude held by Dom James towards the Cisterians and their place in the religious community.

Keywords: Cistercian Order; Order of Cistercians

Subjects: 1950s; Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Cistercians; Eremitic life; Marriage; Orders, monastic; Prayer; Sacraments; Silence; Solitude; Trappist (Ky.); Vows

Partial Transcript: It's not that hermits are very common now, but in the '50s, they were totally uncommon within the Cistercian Order.

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says it's practically unknown for a Cistercian to become a hermit, and normally only happened by leaving the monastery. Quenon remembers one hermit in 1958 from when he arrived at the monastery, who built himself a hermitage with goats, two miles away, and would walk into town and to the monastery for mass every day. Quenon also recalls another person in Canada, but it wasn't until the 1960s that the legislation was changed in the constitutions so that a Cistercian could become a hermit, which was partially due to Merton pushing for it, and Dom James supported the effort and wanted to be a hermit himself. Quenon says that Dom James was simply adhering to the rules of the order when he denied Merton's request to become a hermit.

Keywords: Cistercian Order; Dom James; Order of Cistercians; Rule of Saint Benedict

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Cistercians; Constitutions; General chapters; Hermits; Legislation; Monastic and religious life; Trappist (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: Make a case for solitude. How can a person have any relevance to anything if he's out there in the woods living by himself?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon discusses reasons why someone might become a hermit. Quenon says that he isn't sure how long Merton could have done it, because of the rigors of the lifestyle. He also mentions that the hermetic lifestyle has gone out of favor again in recent decades.

Keywords: Cistercian Order; Order of Cistercians

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Cistercians; Eremitic life; Generations; God; Hermits; Monastic and spiritual life; Solitude

Partial Transcript: Give me what, in your mind, the role that Merton played in the world?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon compares Merton to other authors that acted as outsiders looking at the rest of society, like Thoreau and Dickinson. Quenon thinks it's difficult to categorize Merton because of this, and that Merton would have been a critic no matter where he was in life, but in the monastery he was able to draw on a much richer intellectual tradition.

Keywords: Emily Dickinson; Henry David Thoreau

Subjects: Asceticism; Authority; Desert Fathers; Eremitic life; Individualism; Leadership; Monasteries; Monastic and religious life; Societies; Traditions

Partial Transcript: As a photographer, what do--as a photographer, what do Merton's photographs tell you about Merton the person, Merton the man?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon didn't see Merton's photographs until after he died, but he did see his sketches and thought they had a natural flair, like Picasso. He describes how someone loaned Merton a camera after he became a hermit.

Subjects: Aesthetics; Art; Eremitic life; Hermits; Monastic and spiritual life; Photography; Picasso, Pablo, 1881-1973.; Sketching; Solitude

Partial Transcript: Changing gears a bit, did Merton's interest and in some cases advocacy of Asian spirituality, did that create tension or conflict within the monastery?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon talks about Merton's teaching and spiritual direction, and how he did not push Buddhism onto others. He says Merton only mentioned it a couple times in two years of teaching Quenon, and his interest in it did not make a big stir in the monastery. Quenon recalls asking Merton what Zen was, and Merton couldn't give him a straight answer because there are no essences in Zen.

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Asian religions and cultures; Buddhism; Cistercians; Education; Monastic and spiritual life; Spirituality; Teaching; Trappist (Ky.); Zen

Partial Transcript: Was he a, a celebrity in the community? Like, was he, "Oh, he's Thomas Merton the writer, all bow down to Father Louis"?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says that Merton kept a low profile in the community, and did not have a public persona. Quenon compares Merton with other prominent figures in the monastery, including Father Raymond and Dom James.

Keywords: Dom James Fox; Father Louis; Raymond Flanagan

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Authors; Celebrity; Cistercians; Community; Monasteries; Monastic and spiritual life; Monks; Traditions; Trappist (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: First of all, personally, what was the impact of Merton dying on you?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says that Merton's death was the most joyful experience of Quenon's life, because he saw him reach the ultimate goal, and that Merton is more accessible in death than he was in life. Quenon relates the story of the day he received the news of Merton's death: Father Flavian, the abbot, went to the microphone in the refectory and announced that Father Louis had died, and Quenon immediately went to church because Merton had requested that people say lots of "De Profundis" when he died. Quenon recounts saying the seven penitential psalms and then, while walking away, there was just a sense that everything had stopped until his corpse came days later. Quenon goes on to discuss how the new abbot handled the situation, and how the community within the monastery reacted.

Keywords: De Profundis; Flavian Burns; Jean Leclercq

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Abbots; Accidents; Church; Cistercians; Communities; Crucifix; Death; Holy Spirit; Intercession (Prayer); Jesus; Literature; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Monastic and spiritual life; Monks; Prayer; Self; Spirituality; Trappist (Ky.); World

Partial Transcript: You were thirty-seven years younger then. Do you appreciate or understand Merton in a very different way now?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says his understanding of Merton hasn't changed in the last thirty years, though he remains influential. Quenon mentions that The Merton Foundation and International Thomas Merton Society keep him coming back to Merton, and there's a Merton group that meets at the monastery once a month. He compares reading Merton to listening to a symphony, where one's appreciation deepens each time you engage.

Keywords: International Thomas Merton Society; Merton Foundation

Subjects: Art; Church; Death; Literature; Monasteries; Monastic and spiritual life; Music; Poetry; Spirituality

Partial Transcript: Somebody who reads his journals might go, "Gee, he sort of gripes a lot." But what I have learned is that it's like any job.

Segment Synopsis: Quenon talks about how Merton didn't gripe much in public, but he might have been critical to get a reaction. He says that Merton used his journals to work through his complaints in private, but as a result they give a distorted impression that he likely never intended to be published.

Keywords: Journals; Publishing

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Criticism; Journals (Diaries)

Partial Transcript: When you learned--I don't know if you learned from his journals or from somebody else saying it--that he had had this relationship with the woman, what was your reaction to that?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says that he had seen Merton with a young woman at the monastery after he became a hermit, and they would be carrying a picnic basket together. He talks about how he had no suspicions about it at the time, so the later revelations required adjustment. Quenon mentions that he was impressed by Merton's self-understanding, and says that there was a decision point for Merton about how he was going to live his life.

Keywords: Margie Smith

Subjects: Love; Poems; Relationships; Spirituality

Partial Transcript: Merton wrote passionately about the modern person becoming part of the totalitarian state, you know, his concern about that, the mass mind.

Segment Synopsis: Quenon says that Merton's concern about people following the herd applied to the monastery too, which is why he was critical of monastic life, and felt that the Catholic Church is responsible for conditioning people to mass mentality.

Keywords: Mass consciousness

Subjects: Abbey of Gethsemani (Trappist, Ky.); Catholic Church; Catholicism; Cistercians; Conscience; God; Literature; Monastic and spiritual life; Prayer; Spirituality; Totalitarianism; Trappist (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: What is his legacy?

Segment Synopsis: Quenon discusses how he doesn't think much about Merton's legacy, and doesn't think much about the concept in general. He mentions that Jean Jadot observed that Merton did not discover new things, but reclaimed old ideas and made them pertinent to a new audience, which Quenon agrees with. He goes on to say that Merton's newness lies in his great performance and his artistry.

Keywords: Jean Jadot

Subjects: Art; Audiences; Legacy; Merton, Thomas, 1915-1968; Music; Performance; Silence