Interview with Allen L. Louthian, April 12, 2022

ZOOM0001 Wolfe-Louthian.mp3

ANDREW WOLFE: Today is April 12th ,2022-- uh--My name is Andrew Wolfe and, um this interview is with--uh-- Al SARGE Lothian. And this will be--. uh-- deposited at the University of Kentucky. Louis B. Nunn Center for Oral History. Al, thank you for being here. Thank you for, you know sharing your experience of sharing your story. Um. So, I'm excited to hear about. I'm happy to sit down with you, brother. You know Semper Fi.

AL LOUTHIAN: Semper Fi.

WOLFE: right? Um. So, just to get started here. Young Al Louthian comes into the world. Tell me about your, you know childhood. Tell me about...uh--

LOUTHIAN: born, raised,

WOLFE: born, raised

LOUTHIAN: in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, lil ol' 14-acre farm. uh-- lot of 00:01:00farm work. uh--Seven kids. Poor, huh and--um You did--um-- We didn't even have electricity, hah. Didn't even have running water in a house. Only family, probably in a fifteen, twenty-mile radius that didn't even have electrician. Throughout my--uh-- Childhood. Um. Did stupid things--ha-- like Little ol' Farm Boy did, um, but, um went to high school, made it to high school--uh--didn't complete. Quit.

WOLFE: What--what high school did you go to?

LOUTHIAN: uh-- Solanco High School.

WOFLE: Solanco.

LOUTHIAN: Quarryville, PA. Um, was in the 12th grade, um and I felt that I had 00:02:00to serve--uh-- Country, I quit high school and joined the Marine Corps. I arrived at Parris Island, South Carolina, April Fool's Day of 1966. As a hell of a joke, no.

[Both Laugh]

um, but um, bus was four hour late because I had a flat tire--uh... the drill instructor jumped on the bus, I thought it was doing about twenty miles an hour when we jumped on it screaming n' hollarin. "When you get off this bus, you will be running. You will follow the yellow footprints painted on the sidewalk." Um, first guy off the boss strode across the grass. We all paid for it. We didn't.

Get to sleep. All the rest of that day. All night, all the next day, all that 00:03:00night, we didn't get sleep until the following night.

WOLFE: And that was all receiving right?

LOUTHIAN: That's all receiving.

WOLFE: Did you go through--

LOUTHIAN: processing.

WOLFE: You know, I went, you know, I was down to to Parris Island down in 06. OK. Remember the footprints now. Did you guys go through those silver hatches as well? They have them there yet or?

LOUTHIAN: if they had them or I don't remember.

WOLFE: OK, OK.

LOUTHIAN: Um, I remember carrying the old bucket with them, with our tent bags and all that stuff, you know, and--uh-- then made up a pack and the rest of the stuff was put in a duffel bag, all of our issue clothes and and everything and... uh--um first pair of dress shoes were brown. We had to dye 'em Black, 00:04:00ha--uh-- And you were taught how to shine shoes and boots. I eventually ended up becoming a house mouse. House mouse-- uh--Meant taking care of--uh-- the senior DI's--uh-- senior drill instructor's--uh--um shoes and boots. Umm

WOLFE: How did you get chosen as the house mouse?

LOUTHIAN: I don't remember.

WOLFE: don't remember. Were you the shortest guy?

LOUTHIAN: p--probably.

WOLFE: Probably.

LOUTHIAN: But. Uh-- Back then. Everybody says you're bald now. I said, well, I was pretty much bald in two because

[Laughs]

I thought I had a little bit of hair when I got there, but they got some more off when we went through to get our haircuts. Um, Twelve weeks later. We were, I 00:05:00think, the last--uh-- one of the last platoons to go through twelve weeks, the. They dropped 8 after that. I don't know. I think they eventually went back up. But.

WOLFE: yeah, we're up to, I think, 14 weeks now or so.

LOUTHIAN: ok.

WOLFE: So, you're saying they were at 12 weeks when you were three, when they dropped eight, and I'm guessing that was for--

LOUTHIAN: the Vietnam, Vietnam era.

WOLFE: to get ready for Vietnam.

Yeah. Now when you um, you know, you felt like you had the calling in high school and finish your senior year, you said

LOUTHIAN: right, I quit.

WOLFE: now was that. Due to Vietnam?

LOUTHIAN: I think, so, I felt it was um, there was something I had to do.

WOLFE: mmhmm

LOUTHIAN: Uh, if you want to say, well, did you get along at home, you know? Yes. No, you know it was. You could put a whole bunch.

WOLFE: generally felt a call to serve.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, yeah.

WOLFE: So how old were you, um?

LOUTHIAN: Seven, seventeen years old.

WOLFE: Seventeen years old. And then. So, when you first heard about Vietnam, 00:06:00right, I mean, obviously, you're growing up post-World War Two,

LOUTHIAN: right--I had no clue

WOLFE: Probably post post Korea, correct?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah.

WOLFE: So, you're kind of living in the uh, The fifties age, right, that kind of golden age kind of deal.

LOUTHIAN: yeah, I mean things were, the country was moving.

WOLFE: countries moving. OK, when did Vietnam first become uh, uh thing for you that you heard about?

LOUTHIAN: When? When I get off the plane in De Nang.

[both laugh]

WOLFE: In De Nang [continue laugh] Wow, OK, so. So, you had no recollection,

LOUTHIAN: None.

WOLFE: You just felt a call to serve.

LOUTHIAN: right.

WOLFE: Um, family history of service?

LOUTHIAN: Um, my oldest brother, at that time, my oldest brother and my--let's see... And the one underneath him. er seven kids and my two oldest brothers 00:07:00we're in, we're in the military.

WOLFE: OK

LOUTHIAN: we're, served. Um, my oldest brother being um, went in '58. He served until 67.

WOLFE: OK

LOUTHIAN: The first time. And then we ended up uh, getting out for a while and went back in, which were later on in life. Um, my next older brother ended up in Korea uh, for a time frame, and uh, then he he got out for a little while, and then he went on to the National Guard, Army National Guard. Um, my other two brothers being in the army at the time. Um.

WOLFE: So, you got this call to serve um, went down to good ol' Parris Island. Drill instructors had some fun for ya.

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah.

WOLFE: Um. What was uh, you know, you pull in, you know, it's nighttime probably, I'm guessing and you pulling onto the island. Drill Instructor comes on, what's going through your mind? What are you? What are you thinking? Are you?

LOUTHIAN: What the hell did I get myself into?

[Both Laugh]

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: physically, I'd just gotten out of wrestling season. So physically, I was in pretty good shape. Um, throughout the twelve weeks. Um, it was the drill instructor's job to see how far they could take you before you break or whatever, which was their job to do that, would, could evaluate you um, to possibly be in a different, um--um, what type of job you would end up doing. Uh, and, um, it was mentally. It was, uh, it was is more mental at that time, it was more mental than it was physical, for me because, um, uh, well, like I said, I was in pretty good shape from wrestling season.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: and I, but uh, the of, the physical part was not it was a challenge, 00:09:00but it was because you had to do things different. Um, wrestling, you know, you did a buncha runnin, you know, pushups, sit ups by a lot, you know, but uh, there it's under different circumstances, under different situations,

WOLFE: Different stressors?

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah, um, thee, thee amount that a person can take, um, is determined by his phys-mostly by his physical ability.

WOLFE: Mmhmm

LOUTHIAN: So

WOLFE: So, you said they pushed you mentally as well.

LOUTHIAN: I think they pushed more mentally

WOLFE: more mentally.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah.

WOLFE: Can you give me examples of how do you remember of being pushed mentally down there in Parris Island?

LOUTHIAN: Um, uh, if you want to say um, do as I say not as I do, um, type uh, type thing uh. This is how it's done um, and you think to yourself, well, I 00:10:00could do it this way, but that's not the way he wants it done. Um.

And then you have to make that, I guess, adjustment to where you can, OK, this is the way it's got to be done anyway.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: If you have questions, uh, Mindset, I think, was your first question.

WOLFE: question later. What kind of training in, in boot camp they put you?

LOUTHIAN: Through, throughout, you know, thee, the physical or again the physical portion but that there, you know, pugil sticks I guess I guess I got played against the biggest guy in the platoon.

WOLFE: So, what, what is that?

LOUTHIAN: Pugil sticks is um, I don't know, hand a, sort of like hand-to-hand.

WOLFE: hand combat training?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, yeah.

WOLFE: So, you have the stick with the pads.

LOUTHIAN: stick with the pads, and like I said, I played against the biggest guy in the platoon and standing there being told "if you don't beat 'em" you know, there's your mental. There's.

WOLFE: Yeah, mmhmm

LOUTHIAN: metal stuff right there. I knocked him out.

WOLFE: There you go.

LOUTHIAN: [Laugh] I'm not going to have, you know, but yeah.

WOLFE: So, what are ya

LOUTHIAN: going to the rifle range.

WOLFE: Rifle range

LOUTHIAN: You know uh, the bivouac. You know how to set up uh, you know, you team up with a guy uh to set up your own uh, tent, um you bivouac, and you make it. You want to say out in the wild by yourself.

WOLFE: mmhmm

LOUTHIAN: Um, you're out there uh, everything being patrol, you pull your guard duty, blah blah, blah. You know, it seemed like it would be a fake situation. But when you sit back and look at it, you're, Okay. This could be, you would have to do this in a combat situation

WOLFE: situation

LOUTHIAN: Yeah. And so those are things you learned and all the, um, all the 00:12:00mechanics of weapons, um, to include marksmanship and uh I mean, when you have an individual can standard 500 yards. Uh, offhand and shoot bulls eyes all day long training you to be able to, for you to be able to do that.

You try and pick up on those that you could mean. Life or death? I guess, in a combat situation.

WOLFE: And as so, as you're going through training. Did you? Already know you were going to go to Vietnam.

LOUTHIAN: Pretty much because uh,

WOLFE: it was kind of like, like I guess, even signing up, right, you knew

LOUTHIAN: Yeah

WOLFE: it was kind of

LOUTHIAN: you know, just from signing up. I, how you want to say it? My big word for today, I surmised that this was eventually going to happen. [Laughing] Um.

WOLFE: So, you went in knowing and prepared to

LOUTHIAN: pretty much. And I learned at an early, in an early military career that if you're going into something with the mindset, I'm going to get through this. In most cases, you're able to overcome whatever you have to, get through it. And that mindset helps you get back home.

WOLFE: Mm-Hmm. And so, what did you, what did your like family, your loved ones, what did they, you know, what was their feelings, what was their experience or how did they react when you said you were joining? And then also to obviously knowing that you're eventually, most likely going to go to Vietnam?

LOUTHIAN: Um Mom was a little bit, you know, reluctant uh. The da of my dad uh. You mean, old man?

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: he was he was hard, but he was fair, for the most part. Um, being 00:14:00raised on a [Laughs] little 14-acre farm in southern Lancaster County. You got the physical work out in the fields and in our uh, um, chores and everything around the farm. And so, uh. There was, he had certain ways of doing things [Laughing]. And uh, so, uh, again, um the old man was mean but he in retrospect, was pretty much fair.

WOLFE: mmhmm

LOUTHIAN: We had. Prior to me going to Nam, this was after basic uh, and um, you know, dad had an incident.

Matter of fact on Christmas Eve. And ha. If you want to say um, come to find out 00:15:00he had been abusing my mom

WOLFE: mmhmm

LOUTHAIN: over the year. I mean, I never physically seen it at the time. But uh, I was home there for, for, um, Christmas Eve and. Me and dad had gotten into, Tuffle and He says this, and he says that. Then he went out in the kitchen and everything and started arguing with my mom and the next thing I hear is him hitting my mom and out of the living room I came. Uh, one thing led to another, um, and I says you're never letting another hand on her as long as I'm alive. And he took a swing at me an uh, I pretty much picked up a six-foot five man and 00:16:00body slammed 'em. Uh, Thought I'd broke his back. Uh, out of the house, I went flying. Uh, I stayed at my neighbors. I knew if he got up, he was probably gonna whoop my ass. Um, I figured he was going to beat me. [Laughs] Uh, stayed at the neighbors um, for uh, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day. Uh, He brought my mom over to the neighbors and she came in and asked her to go. I says uh, I'll never step another house, foot in that house if he continues to beat you. Uh, and you better call me. I says, cause I told 'em right to his face, I said, if you ever lay another hand her and I found out about it, no matter where I'm at in the world, if I hear it. I will come home, and I said, I'll kill you.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: Oh, that was. That's all it was. And um, over time, you know, you sit back, and you look, and you say, well, that was probably the stupidest thing to say, but at the time I felt it was. Um, it was needed because he had taught us all of our lives, all of us kids. Um

Never let a hand on a woman.

WOLFE: And this was over like a Christmas Eve leave, leave?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, yeah, I was on, I was on leave, getting ready to uh, to um, deploy to uh, to uh, to Nam. On my way through Okinawa. At that time, we had training at Okinawa prior to Vietnam. And uh, But yeah. We've got a real rude awakening uh, when we got off the plane into Da Nang. Um. Rocket and mortar 00:18:00attack [Laughs}

WOLFE: immediately

LOUTHIAN: Immediately. we haven't even drawn weapons or anything.

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: we haven't even processed through, through receiving.

WOLFE: OK, so you're. Right, you're on the parade deck down in Parris Island, graduate

LOUTHIAN: graduate

WOLFE: You get the EGA

LOUTHIAN: Right.

WOLFE: Right. How do you feel on that?

LOUTHIAN: One of the greatest accomplishments at that time in my short life, seventeen years.

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: Um, we did good. I felt we should have won dill comp. But we didn't. [ Laughs]

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: but um, my mom and dad weren't, weren't. Nobody was able to come to graduation.

WOLFE: Okay, yeah, come down.

LOUTHIAN: Um, seven kids couldn't afford so, um, but well, we're able, I, I did 00:19:00my uh, AIT at uh, uh, Geiger.

WOLFE: That's, Advanced Infantry Training?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah

WOLFE: OK, so you go uh, Parris Island, did you already know when you joined up what job you were going to get into?

LOUTHIAN: Pretty much, yeah. Uh, they said uh, through my testing, my top ASVAB, all that stuff. They said, you're probably going to end up in transportation,

WOLFE: transportation. OK, so you going to Parris Island,

LOUTHIAN: which I did

WOLFE: when you graduate that and then you go to, you said Camp Geiger, that's in North Carolina for advancing. Tell us about advanced infantry training down there.

LOUTHIAN: Uh, It's, you know, it's just more advanced basic training. Um, and then at the same time, you go into your specialty

WOLFE: Okay

LOUTHIAN: like me ended up being in transportation of the thirty-five, thirty-one B (3531B)

WOLFE: 3531B

LOUTHIAN: Um, and, um We did our training and everything there. I got.

If you want to say I got lucky. I was stationed there for a little while afterwards, after AIT

WOLFE: at Geiger or at?

LOUTHIAN: At Geiger for a while and then at main post Lejeune, yeah.

WOLFE: And so, as you're going through AIT. The instructors there are they, you know, obviously, you know, you're getting ready to go

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah

WOLFE: to Vietnam. And are they giving like, what kind of advice, what kind of that uh, you know, I guess in their training, were they talking about?

LOUTHIAN: It's all MOS related, pretty much only

WOLFE: mmhmm.

LOUTHIAN: Not combat

WOLFE: Not combat

LOUTHIAN: or anything like that. You pick up the combat, naturally, the combat training driving the truck, you know? Okay?

WOLFE: When it comes yeah. So, you, so you from Geiger and then you said, OK, so you're done your training. You got your formal MOS and. Now you're in fleet Marine Corps.

LOUTHIAN: Uh, we stopped by um, San Diego, uh, we went to 29 stumps.

WOLFE: Okay. 29 palms?

[Both Laugh]

LOUTHIAN: Twent

[Continue Laughing]

WOLFE: nah we call the stumps too. I get it, I get it. Just clarification.

LOUTHIAN: Uh, we stopped by there for some survival training, on the way. And uh, we all saw which uh, they threw a little ringer in, um, ended up staying in Okinawa.

WOLFE: Okay

LOUTHIAN: Uh, we went into Okinawa for uh, like six months

WOLFE: Now, did you train across country or is it a drive, or?

LOUTHIAN: I flew

WOLFE: They flew over?

LOUTHIAN: I flew

WOLFE: Okay

LOUTHIAN: Um, on orders, um, received orders uh, to Twenty-Nine Palms and then uh, received orders to Okinawa. They assigned me to my first, um, MOS Company

WOLFE: Company. So, this whole travel after sitting on the Lejeune for, you know 00:22:00a hot minute,

LOUTHIAN: Right

WOLFE: this whole travel was your own individual orders like you're not even connected to a unit yet?

LOUTHIAN: No.

WOLFE: OK, OK.

LOUTHIAN: Um, my first unit was Okinawa

WOLFE: Okinawa

LOUTHIAN: Um, I was assigned to uh, trucking company or um, at a unit um, at a post, Camp Victorious, which was better known as Camp Smedley D. Butler. Named after the general. Um, stayed there for a while, um, did things on the island, um, moved up within the MOS um, from pick-ups, ta trucks to big trucks, whatever. Um, to include um, higher harm driving the heavy equipment transporter to haul tanks.

Which was pretty cool. Um, we had to take tanks up to NTA, which is Northern 00:23:00Training Area on Okinawa

WOLFE: mmhmm.

LOUTHIAN: And um, did your local things downtown, you go in uh, party every now and then, you know?

WOLFE: Yeah. So how long how, long were you there?

LOUTHIAN: About six months.

WOLFE: Six months on Okinawa?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah

WOLFE: And then, you know, you said you uh, worked the MOS and that kind of what kind of stuff was your job? What were your responsibilities

LOUTHIAN: truck driver

WOLFE: driving and supplies and stuff?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah. Supplies and stuff with uh, within or on the island, on Okinawa. um not being that big [Laughs], you can't go very far.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: And I don't like swimming. So. [Laughs]

WOLFE: So, then you would get, you know, some leave time and that kind of stuff.

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah, I uh, you could take uh, you know, you get your normal weekend pass and all that stuff.

WOLFE: Mm hmm.

LOUTHIAN: Three-day passes are all as normal and you try and relax. Ultimate 00:24:00assignment is going to be across the pond, another pond.

WOLFE: And, and how was that like? Was it? You didn't know yet when?

LOUTHIAN: no, no

WOLFE: but it was a matter of time like

LOUTHIAN Yeah,

WOLFE: it wasn't. If it was was when.

LOUTHIAN: a part of about uh, eight months that I spent there. And then on to Nam and then

WOLFE: and how was? I guess so how was that like, how are you? Well, how was that like built on you like, I know you're doing your job and stuff? Was there always that in the back of your mind that?

LOUTHIAN: Er, it, Yeah, you wonder, well, you know how? How are you going to implement, you know, what you've picked up, you already know how to drive the vehicles and all of this and all that. You know um, how is the exposure of whatever during combat? You know, while combats actually going on. transportation, transportation are going to be pretty much in the middle of 00:25:00things. Um

Infantry needs ammunition uh, um.

WOLFE: and this is still in summer of '66?

LOUTHIAN: Uh, yeah. Uh, six, uh '67.

WOLFE: Like I said, the beginning in 67 and stuff

LOUTHIAN: Yeah '67

WOLFE: And so how much exposure to information and stuff coming from Vietnam did you have?

LOUTHIAN: very little

WOLFE: very little? So, it was very,

LOUTHIAN: I mean, you, you talk to guys that, are a passing, if you want to say passing through on the way back to the States from Nam. Uh, you know, you pick up things. "Ah, this happened. You know, I was in this kind of, you did this and did", um and you know, you. Formulate, I guess, ha, your idea of what possibly. Um, probably to only find out that it's going to [Laughing] change completely when the when the balloon does go up.

WOLFE: Mm hmm.

LOUTHIAN: When you say the balloon goes up, the ba, at that time, the balloon 00:26:00was going up quite a bit.

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: Uh, you're talking uh

WOLFE: because by that time

LOUTHIAN: you're tied up

WOLFE: two years in

LOUTHIAN: Yeah

WOLFE: almost two years into the war officially.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah.

WOLFE: So, you're, you're in Okinawa. Um, when did you first hear? when did orders first come?

LOUTHIAN: I'm trying to think of uh, when I, when that we actually uh, because it was like. More, say fall

WOLFE: of '67?

LOUTHIAN: Uh, Yeah, early, early fall of '67 um, went on Nam and then um

WOLFE: What was going through your mind?

LOUTHIAN: [short pause] I had it on my head that I was coming home.

WOLFE: mmhmm.

LOUTHIAN: And uh

WOLFE: was it kind of like a, it's finally here?

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah. Well, you knew it was here because like I said, when we got there [laughs] we had taken

WOLFE: Yeah so, so

LOUTHIAN: we just barely landed.

WOLFE: And you flew in you said?

LOUTHIAN: there was a rocket and mortar attack

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: on, on an airfield we just landed at uh, you look out there and half of the airfields missing uh, from, from a mortar attack.

WOLFE: So, what was going through your head on the flight over?

LOUTHIAN: The flight over

WOLFE: still seem kind of you know

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah, to the mindset, you know, you don't know yet.

You don't um, formulate an idea of what's going on until something actually happens. That being uh, your eyes come wide open when you have mortars, land and there are a couple hundred feet of ya.WOLFE: would you, do you guys come over C-130s?

LOUTHIAN: I think that's what we were on C-130s, C-140s,

WOLFE: and then, uhm did they do the combat dive in?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, pretty much because of

WOLFE: kicked out

LOUTHIAN: And if I'm not mistaken, in I'm not mistaken Da Nang down in a

WOLFE: in a valley

LOUTHIAN: In a valley type area,

WOLFE: and did they kick you off while they're still rolling on the

LOUTHIAN: No no no no,

WOLFE: no, they stopped?

LOUTHIAN: They definitely stopped.

WOLFE: And then did you guys bring all of your trucks and stuff with you? All that kind of stuff?

LOUTHIAN: No, it was just your body. You have your duffel bag, you have your sea bag, and that's it.

WOLFE: So, you land.

LOUTHIAN: That's it.

WOLFE: Tell me about it more. You land you.

LOUTHIAN: You don't even have a helmet yet or anything yet.

WOLFE: You just have your uniform.

LOUTHIAN: You got your uniform, you got your, your duffle bag,

WOLFE: your sea bag. So, you land and then say immediately.

LOUTHIAN: An, and I'd say within 20 minutes after we landed. All hell broke loose. And there we are. That's where you start formulating, okay [Laughs] you know, you're looking around, you know, trying to figure out um, do I hide underneath this. My biggest thing uh, I think uh, I need a weapon [Laughs], to protect myself. Well, none been issued yet. [Laughs]

WOLFE: Yeah. So, you're literally, you're literally talk. Talk me through it, if you can, if you don't mind. You're, all the sudden your, what are you in line getting signed in or?

LOUTHIAN: We had uh, no processing or anything had happened yet.

We stepped off of the plane or we got off the plane, went into a receiving building, big Quonset huts that they had built there and everything. And we're there and they're talking to us there this, and that, you know, and then all hell broke loose, and they dispersed, you know, everybody goes to their um, their um. What do you call it?

WOLFE: assign- staging area?

LOUTHIAN: Staging area, they're supposed to when the balloon goes up. Um, So, there you are. You're pretty much on your own. I mean, somebody naturally grabs 00:30:00a hold of you. Hey, you do this, do that. You know, to get, naturally keep you alive, ha um, but you're

WOLFE: Vietnam said. Welcome, huh?

LOUTHIAN: Welcome to Vietnam. Um, and you said, ahh, Again, what the hell did I get myself into?

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: Again, [Laughs] you said that when you arrived at Parris Island, here you are in Vietnam. It's it's a eye opening situation.

WOLFE: Yeah. So, you're, so that gets, you know, the round stop coming in Um.

LOUTHIAN: You go back, you get your finished, your process and you're assigned to your unit and then the unit comes get ya

WOLFE: Okay

LOUTHIAN: and everything. By then, you're already assigned a weapon.

WOLFE: Mm hmm.

LOUTHIAN: Very little ammo. But you're assigned a weapon

WOLFE: and you had?

LOUTHIAN: at the time and M14

WOLFE: they still had the M14.

LOUTHIAN: Still had the M14

WOLFE: And you just kind of have, like you said, your security, right? And it's like, what? The couple? Two three, Mags, right?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, and that's that's it. Um, you know, you'd seen stories in our tape, in the mags together and you know, yeah, torn around marriage and everything. But which was easier on an M-16 or 14 and it was on 16.

WOLFE: Yeah. With the straight mags

LOUTHIAN: you had your banana clips for the 14s, which was,

WOLFE: oh, really? Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: 30 rounds

WOLFE: Okay, so you had the 30 rounds

LOUTHIAN: Yeah. And I knew, I knew guys that they refuse to take an M-16. I don't want that piece of junk made by Mattel.

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: it over time you learned that it got a lot of people killed, I think. poor design, um, no durability. And you know, so those things are weighing on your mind. Me being in transportation and everything, um, I was able to sort of 00:32:00pick-up things

WOLFE: here and there

LOUTHIAN: here and there. Yeah. And were the other guys were, you know ya, OK? I need this for our own personal, snatch up M14 someplace. Keep it hid in a truck. You know, little, little things or forty-five or you know whatever.

WOLFE: Mhm.

LOUTHIAN: And uh, those are. Combat related things that you pick up.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: and its survival.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: And then eventually, I'll, once I get to my permanent uh station there. Truck Company Fl-FLC FSR there at Red Beach

WOLFE: with the, with the 3rd Marine Division?

LOUTHIAN: 3rd Marine Division

WOLFE: And this is your first unit?

LOUTHIAN: First actual unit I was assigned to enlist in the military or in the Marine Corps.

WOLFE: Okay. And uh

LOUTHIAN: while other than, I'm sorry other than

WOLFE: Other than Okinawa. Yeah. But you're saying in Vietnam, you went

LOUTHIAN: and you know, and then I was attached to a recon unit uh as a truck driver because I needed bodies and they needed vehicles. And so, what they did uh, they would attach truck drivers to the recon unit.

WOLFE: yeah. So, when you see you first get with, with the logistics group, right, with 3rd Marine Division, um, where was where was that at?

LOUTHIAN: Red Beach in Red Beach in Da Nang. Uh, I'm not mistaken. It Had sort of had a nickname of Dog Patch. Dog Patch rings a bell for some reason.

WOLFE: that Dog Patch?

LOUTHIAN: Dog Patch uh, was the area. That's what the area was called.

WOLFE: Mm hmm. And then, I guess, tell me what your experience has been with the 3rd Marines. Um What kind of stuff did they have you doing? And then as you progressed through that.

LOUTHIAN: Being assigned to the recon,

WOLFE: so, they assigned you immediately?

LOUTHIAN: Well, pretty much

WOLFE: To recon.

LOUTHIAN: I mean, we uh, did quite a bit of uh we hauled quite a bit of ammunition. Um, we were constantly uh, prior to uh, being attached to uh, Recon, hauled quite a bit of uh, Agent Orange

WOLFE: Agent Orange

LOUTHIAN: We haul tractor trailer loads. Um, we'd load down twenty-eight-foot trailers with 55-gallon drums, strap 'em down, uh, take them to an area, drop the trailer. They were the. Thee, flyboys would pump it off somehow, I don't 00:35:00know. Onto the helicopters or whatever they do, uh, dispense it with um, and um, we pick up one that was empty and bring them back. Oh,

WOLFE: and there's obviously no safety, right? It's just grab and go right to what you need the

LOUTHIAN: [laughs] Oh yeah. Um, we'd put uh, ammunition. Um, I can remember overloading trailers. Twenty-eight-foot Trailers loaded with 105 pergos.

WOLFE: Mm-Hmm.

LOUTHIAN: Armed, armed pergos. Um, loaded from the front of the trailer to the back. Plus, the five ton [Phone rings in background] truck that you were towing that trailer with. Cause we pulled dollies. [Phone rings in background] She'll. Uh, you had, we load it also because it had to drop sides when, we'd load pergos on it too.

WOLFE: yeah.

LOUTHIAN: So, you had a five-ton truck completely loaded with pergos. You had a twenty-eight-foot trailer. Loaded with pergos, lot of ammunition.

WOLFE: And this is all coming from you, this is the third marines?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, under the, uh, um under the.

[Phone call interruption cut]

WOLFE: But yeah, sorry for the interruption, no big deal. So anyway, you're, um, you're still with 3rd Marines, still at Red Beach. Um, and you said you're driving these big tractor trailers?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, Oh yeah.

WOLFE: What kind of missions were you like, what where to, like, what were you doing?

LOUTHIAN: We would take convoys mostly and uh and haul the ammunition to outline units um, wherever they may be. Um, The Marine Corps um, had units uh grunt units, infantry units all over the place. Uh, Hill 55 um, different, you know, different locations throughout uh, I Corps area.

WOLFE: Okay. so, you're going to different places like Khe Sanh

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah uh

WOLFE: and stuff

LOUTHIAN: anywhere you could find we hauled ammunition uh, up and down uh, Highway one was the biggest road

WOLFE: highway one, and that's what I was going to fit from the South right?

LOUTHIAN: anywhere from Khe Sanh and An Hou, pretty much

WOLFE: Okay

LOUTHAIN: uh, An Hou that's uh, [spells out] A N H O A or something like that. 00:38:00Um, uh, Yeah, up and down.

WOLFE: Mm hmm. And this, you were a driver.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah. Oh yeah.

WOLFE: Driver and obviously helped with the loading stuff. And then what you said, you mostly drove the five tons,

LOUTHIAN: mostly five tons and

WOLFE: Deuce and a half,

LOUTHIAN: I could drive

WOLFE: whatever they needed you to.

LOUTHIAN: Right

WOLFE: Okay

LOUTHIAN: I was licensed on pretty much anything from a mule all the way, all the way up to

WOLFE: and and the mule was that little motorcycle that had the tracks on the back right now.

LOUTHIAN: No, not a lot. It's the only vehicle in the Marine Corps' inventory that can haul more than what it weighs itself. OK. Um, and you can drive it on three wheels. [laughs]. Check it out sometime.

WOLFE: Yeah, well, you could, I've heard of it before,

LOUTHIAN: I'm sure. if one wheel gets knocked off or whatever its four wheels, that's a

WOLFE: I know, I know exactly what you're talking about. Yup, okay.

LOUTHIAN: Um, it's the only vehicle in the inventory that can haul more than what it weighs itself.

WOLFE: And they would put all uh you put the recoilless on, right?

LOUTHIAN: they would put thee 105's on.

WOLFE: recoilless and the 105s,

LOUTHIAN: the same gun that was on the Ontos.

WOLFE: Mm hmm. Oh yeah. OK, so you're going and then you get attached with first recon,

LOUTHIAN: right

WOLFE: Um, Start telling me some experience you had.

LOUTHIAN: I had to do everything them idiots did [laughs]. Um, to include jumping out of helicopters with them. Sometimes they didn't need a vehicle, but they needed a body, for patrols and everything else. Uh, but uh, yeah, I wasn't jump qualified or nothing, But I learned how to real, real quick.

WOLFE: So, what did you

LOUTHIAN: I didn't get any credit for [ laughs] either?

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: because I was a thirty-five, thirty-one,

WOLFE: yeah. So, when they, do you remember when they decided like, hey, you're 00:40:00going to go with 1st Recon for somebody or?

LOUTHIAN: Oh, uh, just, you know, the. Volunteer who can do this, dummy. Raised a hand

WOLFE: you got voluntold basically?

LOUTHIAN: Guess what. Ha Yeah, OK, you

WOLFE: How. Do you remember how long this was when you were in Vietnam or?

LOUTHIAN: Um, eight or 10 months? Maybe it was time for me.

WOLFE: So, you're in to '68

LOUTHIAN: yeah, um, '67, '67 to '69 prior to coming back, oh yeah, prior to coming home in '69. So, there was probably um, early '68, mostly in '68, because Tet, '68, was the worst.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: The worst Tet uh, and Tet of '68, I think, was. An eye opener. that being really gotten too complacent. Um, Being complacent. Things happen like nine eleven.

WOLFE: Mmhmm

LOUTHIAN: Uh, we found out, uh, uh, of being that way uh, with the mindset, oh nothing's going to happen here. Um, they worked right amongst, they were right amongst us daily.

WOLFE: Yeah

LOUTHIAN: You know, they had a complete women's division that we didn't know about.

WOLFE: Mhmm

LOUTHIAN: Nothing but women in the, a whole division. And we're? there right among us.

WOLFE: So, where were you at, when Tet happened?

LOUTHIAN: Uh, While I was uh. Let's see, what area was it? Were we in um, when Tet of '68? I guess I was back at uh, I was back at Red Beach

WOLFE: near Red Beach.

LOUTHIAN: Uh, yeah. Ah, because I remember, we kept, you know, you put uh and then you uh, during all this, you pull your normal duties because as you're coming up through rank, you pull your guard duty, blah blah blah. 30 days at a 00:42:00time, whatever. And uh, you had uh. We during, during Tet, we kept getting hit, er a there at Red Beach. couldn't figure out where it was coming from. And uh, Charlie was very ingenious. Uh, they would take our LAAWs, use them against us. Hand fire 'em just by jamming them down the ground, coming up with a firing mechanism. Um, and used our own

WOLFE: get a lot of like improvise in firing

LOUTHIAN: yeah, OK. And when uh, when we finally figured out where we were getting hit from

WOLFE: They were already?

LOUTHIAN: Um, [pause] it was, an area um, that uh, um, how do you want to say? 00:43:00You're not supposed to desecrate it. Uh, by that meaning there was a cemetery.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: Charlie was coming up out of the headstones. And the grave uh, the gravestones, popping his mortars and everything, jumping back. We couldn't. couldn't

WOLFE: And you're not allowed to shoot at that Area, right?

LOUTHIAN: Um, um, uh I'm not gonna say, but [laughs]

WOLFE: [laughs] yeah, your rules of engagement, right?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, um, it's sort of for some odd reason. Uh, Somehow, all the mortar attacks stopped. I'm not going to say how [laughs] those stopped, but they did.

WOLFE: Mmhm

LOUTHIAN: um, And the only way that we figured it out was by getting a fixed wing uh, Plane to, uh Pop uh, uh, what you call it? Flares,

WOLFE: flares spotlight on

LOUTHIAN: parachute flares.

I mean, you can light up, you go it up Philadelphia with a couple of parachute flares and uh. That was the only, uh, that was the only way we uh, were. We figured out where they were coming from. We got all your stuff spotters basically see 'em coming up all the uh headstones

WOLFE: Now, is that something that you had to like, you know, foot patrols kind of out there to take care of that?

LOUTHIAN: Well, I mean, but I'm saying they weren't. If they're not above the ground, for the most part, you're not going to know where they're at.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: Charlie was pretty ingenious.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: I, uh, I've read uh, since, since, Nam, I've read uh, the book uh, um, thee Tunnels of Chu Lai (Al is referring to the book The Tunnels of Cu Chi). Um, let me tell you, Charlie wa- had underground cities. They could survive on the ground.

WOLFE: Now, do you see any of these, any of these?

LOUTHIAN: I didn't, but I didn't see physically but I knew a bunch uh, of uh, tunnel uh tunnel rats.

WOFLE: Tunnel rats

LOUTHIAN: tunnel rats.

WOLFE: Tunnel rats the guys that go down

LOUTHIAN: I mean you look at the movie uh, Forest Gump. That's a pretty good depiction of, of

WOLFE: the guy that goes down and clears out the tunnel

LOUTHIAN: And, you know, they tie rope to 'em, normally it's a smallest guy in the platoon [laughs] and in the hole he goes um, oh, you have cobras in there that have punji pits in there are uh, you know all kinds. Um, it was, what you sit back, and you look at that, now when you read a book about and uh, oh yeah that could of happen that could of happen you know? You know and you sit back, and you look at the time frame that happened to that. Yeah.

WOLFE: So, during Tet, you were down here at Red Beach in Da Nang. Uh, you know, 00:46:00the first starts going off how bad did Da Nang get hit?

LOUTHIAN: Very bad,

WOLFE: very bad. And so, what? I guess what also

LOUTHIAN: as far as losing.

We were prepared to the point where we didn't lose that many men uh, at that time, you know, being a transportation unit and everything else you could deploy uh, to a different area or whatever you know to um, get away from uh, incoming. But um, and you had um, we had a bunker. Ended up taking a total of six direct hits before it caved in. That's how, I mean, we

WOLFE: and you were in that?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, we were. We uh, uh. Guys, we're in it. I mean, we did. Luckily, we didn't lose any.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: You know, but we had bunkers uh, built, built like that, that we had designed and built ourselves. You're talking three four five six foot thick, 00:47:00bunkers. And then you're you would, you would uh, scrounge materials from the Seabees and

WOLFE: sandbags

LOUTHIAN: that are to, to build this and uh, taking four direct hits from, from uh, from big motors and everything else. Um, In the most in most cases, it's going to cave, cave in, whatever you know, blows up. But if you can take uh, four or five six direct hits and uh, still survive. OK, yeah, this is pretty good news, right? [laughs]

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: But then again, too, I've been on, I was at Khe Sanh at the time we were bringing. I think I think we brought Three Twenty-five back out of Khe Sanh.

WOLFE: OK.

LOUTHIAN: And uh

WOLFE: actually, in Three Twenty-Five right now, it's a small Corps brother.

LOUTHIAN: [laughs] I think it was Three Twenty-Five. Um, but anyway, we were bringing them back out of Khe Sanh um, it just so happens I run into a buddy of mine that I went through high school. He was like one grade below me in high school. Um, Leroy Hopkins, I'll never forget him. He was uh, him and his brother, Levi. We're ends for football, Solanco and Leroy. You got messed up three or four times. he uh, uh three or four Purple Hearts from Nam, but ended up being a state um, state police for uh Pennsylvania.

Retire, ended up retiring from the state police in Pennsylvania. But we were up at Khe Sanh When I ran into him and uh, [laughs] We got hit that night or early 00:49:00in the morning, and everybody's looking around for everybody and everything, you know. And we're counting bodies and all of us were "where's Hoppy at?'. We were all, we called him Hoppy, Leroy and uh, "I don't know, I don't Know" about this time. This body comes up out of the ground, out of the dirt. Somehow when his bunker caved, caved in. He was in the right position to where he could still breathe and everything else. And apparently, he heard us talking and he stood up and we said we started screaming, "You dumb ass, you could have got shot", you know? [ laughs] But naturally we were glad to see him.

WOLFE: Mm-Hmm.

LOUTHIAN: But ever, it was pretty wild.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: And then the last two vehicles as were leaving Khe Sanh bringing them out the unit out. We had all the personal belongings in two five-ton dump trucks.

WOLFE: Mm hmm.

LOUTHIAN: Well guess what, truck got hit? All the personal belongings for that unit was completely gone.

WOLFE: Mmhmm and you said this is as you're leaving, where they mine or is they just

LOUTHIAN: no, no, no, mortars

WOLFE: like you said mortars

LOUTHIAN: had a mortar attacked us as we were leaving, and that was that was pretty wild. But we, uh we uh were on the road uh, coming back down through Dong Ha and everything, and it was pretty wild. We got we got hung up on the convoy on the way down, bringing Three Twenty-Five back down to the Da Nang area. Um, Charlie was, had taken over Dong Ha and um, they were in this big hotel, beautiful hotel. And. Between the Army and the Marines, they were basically 00:51:00leveling the hotel in one floor at a time, and we were stuck out there on the road.

You know, in convoy. We were out, you know, in, in uh, defensive positions, but you could see each floor, but you could see Charlie jump out of the floor below as a floor above them, got blowed off, blowed off the top.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: And so, yeah, we just stuck out there for like a day and a half. We're out there in the open with all these vehicles and troops and everything else moving them.

WOLFE: So that kind of situation, what was your responsibility then?

LOUTHIAN: Um, at that time, I was only uh, lance corporal or just a worker, you know, driver in

WOLFE: a driver's seat, if you were driving at the time, you would probably stay in a seat?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah.

WOLFE: And then if not, you would like you say, get in a security position.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, yeah, we were. While, well we all left the vehicle

WOLFE: you left the vehicle

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah, That's a rule of thumb. Uh, When the convoy stops, you get out.

WOLFE: OK

LOUTHIAN: take up defensive position somewhere close to your vehicle so that when the all clear was given,

WOLFE: you can get back on and

LOUTHIAN: get back in. Um, I mean, you know guys had sandbags on the, on the runnin boards and everything, you know, to try and

WOLFE: So, your trucks. they weren't armored or anything

LOUTHIAN: No, no. nothing, sandbags,

[both laugh]

WOLFE: sandbags. whatever you could get on?

LOUTHIAN: I can remember on, in convoy or on convoy running through small towns, villages. Um, Young kids. Well. Charlie had. Um, they would put Satchel charges on young kids. Um, Underneath clothing and they would jump on your running board 00:53:00as you're running through and you know, you can see the satchel charge knowing that if you, you know and you're pointing either an M-16 or Forty-five that and the kids laughing at you because he knows you're not gonna, if you do, you're going to blow up the whole truck.

They would laugh at you. Um, I guess your easiest way out was a candy bar or something like that.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: Um, you did things like that. That was uh, that's when you realize what war is. [coughs] And uh, it's an eye opener. People that have never experienced or been exposed. Um, don't.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: They don't know. Um, uh, they probably wouldn't be able to handle 00:54:00whatever. They were told. Whether it be good or bad. about saturation, like uh, um, the old saying "war is hell." Believe me, I can say war is hell. Um, with sincerity, I've seen it. I've view, I've uh, experienced it. So, uh

WOLFE: yeah. So how often you know you're doing these convoys, you're doing this stuff throughout it? How often would you guys take contacts on these missions?

LOUTHIAN: Pretty much. Uh, not gonna say, uh well not too often

WOLFE: not too often

LOUTHIAN: because uh, in certain areas, we had what they called Dragon Wagon which were uh, APCs that were that were set up or they were called. I think they 00:55:00called them Dusters. Um, and as we're going down the road and going across bridges and everything else, they were too heavy for the bridges, so they would have to go off to the sides of the bridges and um ford or, you know, roll across a small stream or something. Come back up under, make sure, you know, or sometimes we'd be moving right along. Pretty good. Uh, they'd have to bust a hump to get down, get back out, uh, you know, our head of a con and stay ahead of the convoy to run uh

WOLFE: they were like a cover. Security guys watch your back and stuff.

LOUTHIAN: yeah, that's what They call them dusters

WOLFE: dusters.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, they were APCs One One Threes or One One Fours because I forget which ones.

WOLFE: Mm hmm.

LOUTHIAN: But they could move right along. And you know, they have a full crew uh, on them, and uh, to run as they they were our escort, and they would take on 00:56:00whoever they had to. But um, [coughs] sometimes we'd go through a village. Again, more. Um, the local populace, uh, they would see an American convoy coming through. They may have. They wanted to dispose of a body, possibly. Um, of a Vietcong that they'd killed in the village the night before um, and a way of doing that. You're doing 25, 30, 35 mile an hour. Um, you can't stop on a dime. Um, individuals within the villages would throw bodies in front of ya. 00:57:00Guess what? Body, disposed of. It's gone. You're talking how many axles is going to come across it, there is not going to be too much of the body left, but it was their way of disposing of what they had. They killed a Vietcong or something in the village at night. The night before, an experience that we saw out there quite often was up in the mountains. You get up above uh, uh Dong Ha and on up towards Khe Sanh and everything else you get up in there. Um, you have the. There, I guess was a populous are, of what they call Monta- Montagnards.

WOLFE: Oh yeah, the Montagnards. Yup

LOUTHIAN: Uh. They were unreal. I, I, Couldn't, couldn't believe. [laughs] I think the, the beetle nut that they chewed on made them s-superhuman. They were 00:58:00able, and I'm talking women, small women. Sometimes they had a stick over there. Um, um for like uh that, uh, they could put bales of things and hang them off of those and they had a gait and a walk. Those Bales didn't move. I tried to do the same thing one time. You know, I'd take one step in the one in the back.

It hit me in the rear end, and you know, the next step, the front one would hit me. They could. I-I'm talking. Three-hundred-pound bales of stuff, each one. You're talking almost 600 pounds. Two hundred fifty-five in total, maybe 500 pounds of carry something. Small women and they get into this gait. Those bales 00:59:00didn't move. It was unreal. And uh, [laughs] I-I like, I, I tried it. I thought, I was pretty strong. I couldn't do it.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: pretty cool stuff like that. That was uh, if you want to call it the fun side of war.

WOLFE: And experiences of that,

LOUTHIAN: yeah.

WOLFE: What other experience did you have with the locals, the populace, the Vietnamese?

LOUTHIAN: Uh, as I got closer to probably um, getting ready to leave, come back. Um, we got to work with. Uh, um, what do they call 'em uh groups that work with as, as the war was starting to turn down or whatever you want to call it. Um, we were required to go out into the villages to, to assist them doing different 01:00:00things. What do they call civil action? Or sometimes uh, something like that. Community relations or I don't, I don't know. And work with, you know, the villages. You know, we're doing things. Um, learning their customs and everything and trying to teach them different things that we did here. You know, for like farming and, you know, just different things. And to interact with the, with the villagers naturally to keep their trust and everything throughout all the the whole ordeal of so-called Vietnam War. And it was pretty cool that way. I've got to see it. Prior to me, leaving there. We've blown half of their country off the friggin map. apparently, it would have been. Our duty to say, you know, you can do this to help yourself out here, you know? Well.

It's. Um, the wars hard part was at that time was pretty much over. You know, when you think about it, it was pretty much over. Uh, For, for me, I felt that it was ther-there um,

WOLFE: and it was kind of after Tet kind of,

LOUTHIAN: yeah, Tet, Tet was over with

WOLFE: Tet hit it was kind of over then

LOUTHIAN: like I said, Tet was '68 was probably the worst.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: And. Um, well, you figure I was there for five different campaigns. Two or three, Tets So. Um, when you look back and say. Did I really learn anything? The things that you learned, For the most part, you wouldn't want to 01:02:00pass on anybody anyway. Um, the actual training that you got out of it was for you. The knowledge gained. Um, you put it in the memory bank and. Even if somebody asks you about it, they don't need to know what's in the bank. you know what you have back there. You were involved with, or you dealt with and. For the most part, nobody else needs to know about. Uh, for the most part. Uh, if you're to the situation where you have to. Divulge, you know, to be able to, therapy or whatever. Then it's uh, uh, uh, different. that's different. So many people. 01:03:00Have come back. They look OK on the outside. They're not okay on the inside, but they don't. Well, for the most part, they don't show it. Um, Overtime. Little things may show up that would Lean towards, uh you know, when they do something about this, so on, um

WOLFE: so, you're, you know, it's what, 1969

LOUTHIAN: '69 getting ready to come back

WOLFE: getting ready to come back.

LOUTHIAN: or I came back

WOLFE: when did you, so, did you have like a uh you knew when your time was up in Vietnam?

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah, yeah.

WOLFE: And that was that from day one, you knew?

LOUTHIAN: pretty much.

Yeah,

WOLFE: and kind of how, how was that?

LOUTHIAN: the adage that, you know, I was there form '67 to '69, almost uh, 01:04:00total of two years

WOLFE: and you said you extended,

LOUTHIAN: right.

WOLFE: This is that volunteer right?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, yeah,

WOLFE: OK.

LOUTHIAN: I took, you know, R and R to ah, Australia, you know

WOLFE: Oh yeah? OK? How was how was that?

[both laugh]

LOUTHIAN: Uh-Huh. I'd rather not talk about I'm on my own home.

[both continue laughing]

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: No. uh, it, it was R and R

WOLFE: How was it Um, you know, you're here in Vietnam. Your taking contact you. You're doing what you have to do

LOUTHIAN: right

WOLFE: All of a sudden, hey, here's R and R go to Australia. How is that? You know, especially look back on now, how is that, you know, then of going from, you know, you're going Mach 2 and to

LOUTHIAN: probably to when you get there or we're not when you get there. And 01:05:00then you realize, oh crap, I don't have to do not, you know? You know, I can do this, you know, um, it sets in after two or three days of not having, you know. Looking over your shoulder all the time, um, um, just what it says, Relaxed. What it takes. A length of time to be able to just leave and relax. Some people will never. Learn that or end up with that uh, capability of being able

WOLFE: so, you were able to transition, fairly decently?

LOUTHIAN: I think I think, you know, I have, well you have your, your solo moments, you have your good moments, if you want to call them that, you have. So, so, um, You. You are. What you do and what you um what your um how do I want 01:06:00to say it. My biggest thing, if you weren't there, you don't know. It's and it's not being smart about anything.

Uh, you can relate. If you've been there. For the most part, you kept, if you haven't, you cannot in any way, shape or form, for the most part. You can't relate, you can't, and you can't understand what an individual, Goes through. What that individual's able to, um, uh or how that individuals able to maintain 01:07:00himself Throughout, Time is, how much he wants to remember of what happened and. The effect it has on him. Yeah, I think.

WOLFE: So how long a time would you usually spend on R and R how much would?

LOUTHIAN: That was 30 days

WOLFE: 30 days. so, you get that month leave?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, it was a whole month.

WOLFE: How was the transition going back to Vietnam?

LOUTHIAN: You knew exactly

WOLFE: to click it

LOUTHIAN when you touched down

WOLFE: to click it. OK.

LOUTHIAN: You turned a switch. Well, as soon as you touched down, you knew

WOLFE: and you were ready to rock and roll

LOUTHIAN: you're ready to, to do what you had to do. I finished up my time. My R and R was

WOLFE: so, it was learning how to. OK, let me get my little bit of relaxation in. But it was., hey It's game time.

LOUTHIAN: It was just like in Forest Gump

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: OK? Um, we have your fun. It's time to work.

WOLFE: Yeah. So. '69 you're getting ready to your orders are coming up, you're getting ready to go leave Vietnam. What kind of impacts, what kind of impact or I guess, stuff that you learn? What was the difference between, you know? Young Al going in in '67 and now

LOUTHIAN: 200 percent.

WOLFE: Can you share a little more of like what kind of, Mindset, I guess, thought mentality and the

LOUTHIAN: well, a complete mindset change and pretty much a complete mindset change. You knew what you had to do for when the balloon had went up during that time frame.

You were able to do what you wanted to do for the time frame, but you weren't exposed to it. And. Um, if you can function. Pretty good. Uh, you made it. the 01:09:00mindset of going there that you're going to come back for the most part You're going to come back

WOLFE: that positive mental attitude, kind of.

LOUTHIAN: So, was so many guys didn't have that or couldn't grasp that and didn't come back. Um, a lot. And even some of the ones that did come back Um, weren't able to grasp the change. Between that and. Being away from it, so that's how you the. It's all well, it's back to mental again um, the physical part you've already gotten past all that you can handle that. Um it's, it's 01:10:00mental again, and it's how you. Uh, what you're actually exposed to when now that you are away from it and how you carry yourself. Throughout the whole, you've already carried yourself through the ordeal, so-called ordeal of being exposed. Under combat conditions, whatever. Now you have to carry yourself in a. If you want to call it civilian uh, uh situations, how you carry yourself within that and how you explain or expose yourself or explain yourself to people. Um, determines who you are. Um, you can, you can be a complete A-hole or you can. Except what happened, happened. Uh, it's over and done with. Um, Time to move 01:11:00on. So, um, I made it home and. Um, Glad of that. Um, Would I do it again? If I had to. Um, only because. That would be, I could make myself get in that mindset again to be able to do that

WOLFE: to flip, that's that's switch again. How did your uh perception and I guess views of Vietnam change from I mean, I know we said earlier that you didn't really have a lot of experience or any kind of knowledge about Vietnam going in versus coming back out.

How did your view of, I guess, the war, you know change?

LOUTHIAN: But then once I'm back here and back tin the states and whatever. Um, 01:12:00You, you know, you're saying you look at the, eh this is a piece of cake. Basically um, That parts there. It's over done with. Now we'll deal with what's going on now. Uh, Big difference. But you have naturally, you have the guys that can't make that change or have it, but they were not able to.

WOLFE: So, you're able to

LOUTHIAN: whether, whether it be. Well, for the most part, it's going to be a mental thing um. physically, sometimes being wounded, whatever. Well, there's a lot involved when it comes to well. Are you completely over it? Nah. You'll never get completely over. No. Nobody that's ever been in combat is get, it completely over

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: I don't care who you are.

WOLFE Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: you could be a 10-star general and you still. What happened during 01:13:00that time frame happened. You can't just turn off the switch like that didn't happen. You can't do, I don't care who you are.

WOLFE: So, what was it like leaving Vietnam? I guess you guys flew out, correct?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, flew out, we're back to Okinawa, just basically just to pass through. I didn't spend very long there.

WOLFE: So, you went back to the states and then

LOUTHIAN: and then came back to Lejeune. Uh, I actually assigned to the um, what they called the TSP Transportation Station Motor pool there on main post at Lejeune and. Here I am. Uh, um, By then, I'm a E-5. Should have been an E-6, but. Uh, [laughs] I uh, things that were going on at that time, whether it be on 01:14:00the civilian side, on the military side, whatever I had Made the evaluation of nah this ain't for me, military life at that time.

Right

WOLFE: And you're saying this is one of the beginnings of a hard push of counterculture.

LOUTHIAN: What I did, I did OK. I felt because I had to. Um, that's over and done with now. what I see. I don't necessarily. I don't think I would want to continue doing that. At that time

WOLFE: in the military.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, in the military and I made the decision um, as an E-5, and I was, eh, you'll make E-6, so you should have already been promoted. If you're saying I can make eh I don't want it.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: if you say, if I'm eligible, promote me. You know, and but don't 01:15:00promote me, just, you know, keep me hanging on. You know, for another four, six years or whatever. Um, you had the opportunity, I felt I hadn't screwed up. [laughs] What's wrong? You're promoting individuals at that time. Big thing was uh, shake and bake. You get your stripes for education and everything else. Um, I don't feel for the most part that Promotions should be based on education. That's my own personal opinion. Combat. Um, Knowledge and um

WOLFE: So, you're saying like experience, so performance.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, um, civilian, type knowledge, go hand in hand, you can have both of them and be able to maintain a high level of anything you want to do, but don't. Um, Put one against the other. More civilian type education, book, learning, book learning doesn't, doesn't do anything, in combat for the most part in combat.

WOLFE: So, was there a lot of like obviously you have this kind of contention, right when you're back stateside and that was there, that similar kind of with commands and stuff while you were in Vietnam?

LOUTHIAN: No, for the most part,

WOLFE: everyone kind of.

LOUTHIAN" I'm not saying.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: periodically possibly, you know, you always with new people come in. You end up in the news, you know, they want to do things this way

So that's, that's normal. That's everyday life. But when you have a situation to 01:17:00where. Um, The overall. Um, Mindset of, of, of the military is push education. Bah, bah bah. To a certain extent, you have to have I understand that. But you also have to have their complete military education also. And I think that has to be forefront over than civilian. I think they uh, they pushed too much of the civilian education on us. And other individuals that had that were um, put in positions. Only because of that. Oh. There's no um. What's called it you don't 01:18:00have a combat experience. Um, Not having the combat experience. You can have all the education in the world. You can have all the PHDs blah blah blah are uh, thrown out the window

WOLFE: like you were saying when you're not there,

LOUTHIAN: when the balloon goes up. If you don't know how to make a decision or what type of decision to make. When that balloon goes up. You get people killed. And if you're in a position where you're where you have individuals underneath you, it's your responsibility to take care of those individuals and get them through the situation and not having that. I think the combat experience gives you that knowledge to be able to do that. On top or, you know, as as time goes on. On top of that, you can add in, you can push the individuals pursuing of 01:19:00civilian education, why you know why you're in. If you were to say peace time

WOLFE: or not in direct support or contact,

LOUTHIAN: yeah.

WOLFE: So, did you have like I was saying. Did you have these kind of experiences as well with like officers in that con- that, you know,

LOUTHIAN: for the most part in the Marine Corps I had good experience, good experience with most, most officers.

OK. I got to learn on the Warrant officer side, especially on the warrant officer side who are your technicians and you're in all your fields, you have pretty much have warrants, warrant officers and the experience of those warrants is invaluable. And the officers, the commissioned officers depend on them. To 01:20:00teach him that. it's our responsibility to work along with the technicians, the warrants to be able to teach the commission's to be able to fully do their job. Um. A warrants a technician, he knows all the technical stuff. He's the one you go to for the answers when something gets screwed [laughs] up. Oh. I think the on the military side, naturally, you have to have your advancement through the ranks. Your PLC, your BNOC your ANOC your First Sergeant School, you're a sergeant major school on the enlisted side. You have to have all of those, OK? But. The way to get through theirs, I think, is should be based more on combat 01:21:00knowledge. OK? And then. The civilian style or civilian type of education should take, I think, a little bit of not not a complete backseat, but kind of

WOLFE: supplement

LOUTHIAN: supplement. Yes. A well-educated military. Combat trained and civilian education goes hand in hand. If you can utilize the individuals that have. Both of those trainings or both of those knowledge's um, nobody can beat you uh, because what is it? If you know the basics, you can apply. If you can apply the 01:22:00basics, you can do anything you need to with. I don't care how technical it is, you have to have, know the basics. Once you know the basics and can apply them, then you can. Yo- you can do anything you want.

WOLFE: So, you get you get home or you're at, you're at Lejeune and you make the decision to get out.

LOUTHIAN: to get out

April 30 or March 31st, 1970

WOLFE: 1970, March 31st. And you came back home?

LOUTHIAN: I came home, got a part time job at a moving company for a while. My oldest brother was living in Stewartstown PA at the time. He had gotten out of the army in '67 and everything uh, while I was over in Nam. But anyway, he was. 01:23:00Uh, He worked some odds and ends job, and we ran into each other. When I got home, I ended up staying with him for a while over Stewartstown, and we worked down to peach bottom atomic plant, uh, as laborers. And then that was in s'70 and '71. You know, the job market wasn't the greatest and everything. And so, we were talking, you know, talking back and forth um, He says, "let's go back in." I says, I says what? am I just I, I got married in '71. OK, so. I just got married and. I said man I just got married. He says you'll be able to afford it 01:24:00as an E-4, you know, because the Marine Corps will take you back as you move on, I said noo no. I will be able to, you know, because I had the two oldest. My daughter and son from Carol's first marriage. And

WOLFE: so, at '71, you're thinking about going back in.

LOUTHIAN: Right

WOLFE: You got married. Got now your wife, Carol. Right? When did you guys meet? Was that after you got back or was that something?

LOUTHIAN: Can I throw in the fun part?

WOLFE: You can.

LOUTHIAN: We were at a bar. [laughs]

WOLFE: There you go. That's right. And this is after you came back home? You got out. You're out, you're back.

LOUTHIAN: I'd uh, I'd uh, like I said I'd was doing odds and ends jobs. I joined a motorcycle club [laughs] and everything else. I had a beard down, down to here. (Points to his upper chest)

I, I rode with a odd ball group of bikers and everything. It was a wild uh. 01:25:00Pretty much a wild year.

WOLFE: So were you. trying to find your place kind of deal.?

LOUTHIAN: Pretty much, yeah, I've pretty much headed the wrong way. [laughs] Riding with this group. But I mean, we were trouble found us wherever we went. It didn't matter. Bunch of bikers, blah blah blah, you know?

WOLFE: And how many of them were Vietnam?

LOUTHIAN: Quite a few of

WOLFE: quite a few.

LOUTHIAN: Quite a few. Off and on. But uh, the president of our club was a vice president of a bank up in Gap, PA [both laugh]. but you'd never know it

WOLFE: Mm hmm.

LOUTHIAN: Beard. Every day you'd see him in a white shirt and tie. With a beard down to here. You never know. He's vice president of the bank and here he is, is 01:26:00our club president. Like I said, trouble found us everyplace we went pretty much we didn't go there looking for trouble. But

WOLFE: so, how did you fall in with the with the motorcycles?

LOUTHIAN: Uhh, I think just

WOLFE: looking for something to do or?

LOUTHINA: Looking you know, and I just bought a brand-new motorcycle um, uh, the last year. Matter of fact, it was last year at a Harley Davidson made major motorcycles for a while before AMF bought them out. I bought a '69 Sportster. Brand new, brand spanking new bought it from Beaver Valley pike up there uh um, the Harley dealer right there at uh Willow Street, and eighteen hundred and fifty dollars for a brand-new bike. 1969. 1969, that's a CH Sportster. And that 01:27:00thing screamed [laughs], but yeah, I was living the. Well, you want to call it high life to me at that time was a high life. Um, I had, I mean, I'd seen my mom and every time since I've been back.

Me and my brother cliff, I was staying with him, so. Uh, we work together. And then when we both made the decision, while when I ended up getting married, uh, uh I told Carol that. What would you think about me going back or going to the military or me going back in? And she says when I told her some of the answers, I'd be able to get housing and everything because I've already got four years' service. They would have to offer me housing as a an E-4 with four years.

WOLFE: Corporal Yep.

LOUTHIAN: Yep. Well, I've went from E-5 to E-4 that's, when I. when I switched services,

WOLFE: OK

LOUTHIAN: I lost one stripe. And she says. "I'd be OK," you know, be able to go and she had been divorced. Uh, I don't know how long at the time. But anyway.

WOLFE: So, you're saying the job market was rough

LOUTHIAN: Job market

WOLFE: economy

LOUTHIAN: and the economy is pretty bad,

WOLFE: pretty bad,

LOUTHIAN: you're talking in the early '70s. it wasn't, wasn't the greatest at the time. And uh, let's see who was the? when I came out? We would have had who was the president back in '70,

WOLFE: Nixon

LOUTHIAN: was a Nixon. Yeah. Or anyway, like I said, wasn't the greatest and 01:29:00then who took over for Nixon? Whatever. Made it, you know, we talked, and I party and some actually quite a bit [laughs]. Um, and we made the decision uh, let's go for it. first duty station as Sec E-4 U.S. Army was Fort Eustis, Virginia. Housing available. Um, not right away, but. Uh, we ended up getting a place on. Economy or for whatever you want to call it, downtown. We lived in a little town called Hampton, Virginia, which is just below Fort Eustis there, about 15 20 minutes

WOLFE: Mm-Hmm.

LOUTHIAN: And uh, stayed there for a short time. Uh, I remember my first formation I went to.

I was standing there in civilian attires. And the First Sergeant says uh, "Specialist how come you don't have a uniform on?" I says I don't think it would be pretty. It would be appropriate for me to be standing here [laughs] in Marine Corps uniform. He says, "what do you mean?" I says, I'm a. Repeat or reject from the Marine Corps, no [laughs], I says uh, I switched over from the Marine Corps. I haven't been issued anything yet.

WOLFE: So, like you, so, you joined the army,

LOUTHIAN: I joined the army,

WOLFE: and they just assigned you to a unit? There's no training, there's nothing like that because your prior?

LOUTIAN: assignment as an E-4, as a junior instructor at the transportation 01:31:00school in Fort Eustis, Virginia. And I had to get every stitch of clothing issued to me. Army clothing issued to me. everything from drawers, T-shirts, socks, boots, everything. Um, we stayed there for a while. I enjoyed it. Wasn't, wasn't bad. And. Opportunity. uh Came um to. uh, um Moved to uh Fort Dix.. In the meantime, my oldest brother, having went back in within like, Half a month or so of each other. He went to Fort Dix. He had to go back through basic.

WOLFE: Oh, okay,

LOUTHIAN: okay. I didn't have to go through basic changing from the Marine Corps 01:32:00to the Army. I guess back then the stipulation was if you've been to Marine Corps basic and you transferred to another branch, you don't have to go back to the basic. You have to go through their basic. Reason my brother had to go back to basic, he'd been out. The timeframe more than the timeframe to where you go to where you could retain everything.

WOLFE: Now when you sign back up, you're saying '71, right?

LOUTHIAN: I was already Spec-4. I was getting paid under Spec-4,

WOLFE: were you thinking about, like getting sent back to Vietnam?

LOUTHIAN: No, because Vietnam was complete.

Um, '73.

WOLFE: Okay, so like the drawdown was already happening pretty wellLOUTHIAN: Oh yeah drawdown has gone, what you call it a,

WOLFE: So, you were pretty confident that you would.

LOUTIAN: Oh, yeah. Well, as far as combat went. at that time, there wasn't any 01:33:00anything going on there. I guess you could consider us or complete peacetime Army of peacetime military

WOLFE: at least stateside. It was operated that way.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah

WOLFE: OK.

LOUTHIAN: You could pretty much go any place you want and assignments for a halfway decent. Me coming from the Marine Corps. Um, naturally I had the Recon experience was never that was never awarded it or Recon MOS, but I had all the knowledge and everything else. I thought, well, maybe, you know, could go to Brag or something like that. And they said, no we need transportation. So, I went in the army as a 64-Charlie.

WOLFE: Is that

LOUTHIAN: truck driver

WOLFE: truck driver

LOUTHIAN: Uh, same thing as Third, uh, Third Marines.

WOLFE: So, what was the experience like going, you're in the Army now? How is that compared to I mean, obviously I know a lot of your time in the Marine Corps was spent in the combat zone in Vietnam, but how did that compare?

LOUTHIAN: I'm standing out there in a formation once I finally was able to put a uniform on and everything. I'm standing out there in a formation with. You know, a decent amount of ribbons on already have a hash mark and everything else. And three combat marks, you know, and having to answer the question "what are you doing with all that stuff? "You know, all those markings on your sleeves, I says. Well, I've already been to Vietnam. And I says. That says, I was there for a year and a half, almost two years.

And I said this says I've been in the military for over four years already. 01:35:00That's when 'em. And I says, these are according to that, and these are other guys that were the same rank I was.

WOLFE: Mhm.

LOUTHIAN: And I says (he was meaning the other soldiers said) "You get all those, you get all those from combat?" And I says, I got them from combat, yeah. They then never experience. Um, and they were in the military at that time. Education was a big push. A lot of them were there for what they called Strips for Skills. OK? Had book learnin. No actual combat learning or anything, yet they have book learning. So, the Army said, OK, we'll give you this rank for this amount of education that you can prove to us you're already Spec-4. There's 01:36:00only been in the military for six months. Here I've been, I'm the same rank. I'd already been in for um, five years

WOLFE: the same rank as you,

LOUTHIAN: same rank

WOLFE: six months, but because I had some prior

LOUTHIAN: knowledge

WOLFE: of all education.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, it was all education

WOLFE: yeah, that's what I meant, education not combatLOUTHIAN: No no combat learning or, or knowledge or training or experience. None whatsoever. Not saying that I should have put myself on a pedestal way above them no. We're the same rank. The only thing that was different to me, I'd been in a different situation. Other than they had Uh. And I drew more money than many. [laughs] Yeah, but. Um, it was an eye-opener. Um, I'm standing out there and when you 01:37:00have an individual question. At that time, all the ribbons that I had. "Aren't you supposed to wear this, aren't we?" "You should be wearing this." And I says I was never awarded that. I says what I'm wearing is what I was awarded. And I have orders from the Marine Corps.

awarding them, uh to me. And I says I'm authorized to wear 'em. Um, the placement of 'em is to be decided by you guys. Understand that I can live with that may not like it, but I'm gonna, I have to live with it. Um, that part sort of, you know, when I saw the difference, that's when you see differences between the branches

WOLFE: now, did you get that just from your peers or did you also get that from 01:38:00your seniors as well

LOUTHIAN: everybody,

WOLFE: everybody,

LOUTHIAN: everybody.

WOLFE: So, your. Guess this leads to my next question so your, your time, your experience in the Marine Corps in Vietnam. Was it respected?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, definitely.

WOLFE: It was respected, but there were small instances where you did have these.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, yeah, and if you want to call if its questioned,

WOLFE: questioned, Ok.

LOUTHIAN: You know. Not the validity of it, I-I- I already did it I don't have to justify myself to anybody when it comes to something like, personally uh. I will tell you, you can accept it or whatever. Uh. Personally, like But- Rhett Butler said. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

WOLFE: So, what was your?

LOUTHIAN: I was uh, Basically, I ended up as an instructor at the transportation 01:39:00school there at Fort Eustis for a while and I said, well, I've got a, you know, I've got a family. I've got to provide for the family, s0. You know, I want to try and get promoted back up through, you know, get decent housing, you know, more money or more stripes, more money. And so, I made the decision I applied for or no, I came down under orders. They needed. They removed transportation around quite a bit of that time, and they needed uh, Fort Dix Had quite a few openings for drivers. Well, for, for 64 Charlies, which was you could be

WOLFE: Yeah. General Motor Transport General

LOUTHIAN: Yes. Yeah. And so, I came up to Fort Dix. And I was there, and I said 01:40:00Well, I still got, I still want to get promoted and everything. So, I went in Drill Sergeants program, Army Drill Sergeant program. Well guess who's in the drill sergeant program? My oldest brother. We had the opportunity or the fortune or whatever you want that misfortune, but we had the opportunity to be station together in the same company. I was listed as a trainee Drill, or I wasn't a school trained DI. Um, but I had the hard hat he had campaign hat. He was already school Drill Sergeant. He had went back through basic. Got retained in a 01:41:00company. Went to Drill Sergeant School, made E-5. Came out of Drill Sergeant School and within about six months made E-6. So uh, he went back in on a PFC, E-3, and he went from a three to six inside of. Well, here we are. But over a year ago, when he went back in. So, which was great, you know, I was glad for him. No problem. And so, we were there in the company and everything, and I'm still trying to get promoted and waiting on my time to be selected to go to Drill Sergeant School actual, you know, formal training school, um, which ended up never happening. But I still did everything. All the other drills did this work

WOLFE: where were you guys at?

LOUTHIAN: Fort Dix

WOLFE: You were at Dix. Yeah, they were doing the training there, OK?

LOUTHIAN: uh, A-4 3 was uh, A company. Forth Battalion, 3rd, 3rd brigade or something, whatever A-4 3 was. There was a training, a basic training company

WOLFE: basic training company

LOUTHIAN: Yeah.

WOLFE: And you were the instructor trainee.

They called you right?

LOUTHIAN: I was a trainee drill or whatever you want to call. And I- I put up with this for about six eight months. I says, I've got to get promoted, you know? Here I am only still in a uh, and I'm E-5 yet. I don't remember whether I'm made E-5 yet or not now. I just made E-5, not too long. And so, uh, Spec-5. But I had to wear a Sergeant shirt, they did what they um, converted me from 01:43:00Spec-5 to uh, Buck Sergeant. And so that way, you know, they wouldn't see a Specialist out there. They so anyway. We messed around, messed around, and to never get scheduled to go to school or something would come up doing this and doing that. And natural, I'll tell my brother I says, no, I've got to do something. So, I'm assigned at that time, I was still assigned to the TMP, to the motor to the motor pool. And so, I went back to the motor pool full time and. [Laughs] They said they need a driver over or over to. Well- welcome center at the guest house, you know, to work supply, and I said, OK, you know, do whatever you want to ask. You know, I'm trying to get promoted here. I'm doing correspondence courses. I couldn't get any more points for promotion any faster. 01:44:00And. All of a sudden, for some reason, the old boy down at the motor pool. He says, "Hey, man, you might want to apply for this." He says, "You already got combat time and everything else," he said. "The General" I says what do you mean General. A general was looking um, for a new driver. And his driver had gotten promoted, and he wasn't authorized the higher rank to drive for him. He wasn't slotted for it. Uh, He would be above the slot.

And so any way out of eh, What the heck, you know, so the spit and polish type deal, you know, good look in uniform. I'll go over for the interview. Seven guys, seven drivers were interviewed. I was next to last for the interview and 01:45:00got selected. So next thing I know I'm moving over to the General's office as a driver at Fort Dix, he was the C.G. of Army Readiness Region 2. ARR2. There at Fort Dix, and what they dealt with was. Uh, um, The National Guard and reserves, the training of the National Guard and reserve for. Pennsylvania. Jersey and. Delaware tris state

WOLFE: tri state area. Do you remember that general was?

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, oh yeah. [laughs] Patrick W. Powers. Uh, Hell of a man.

WOLFE: And he was a

LOUTHIAN: Major General.

WOLFE: He was a Major General, permanent grade One of the few permanent grade, 01:46:00Major Generals. Retired uh now. Yeah, but he, he passed. Was uh, going on 62 years old, passed away playing racquetball. [makes a pssh noise] keeled over dead. But anyway, good man. um. It was funny after we had the twins [laughs] him and his wife would come over to our house every now and then. Well, naturally, you know how housing areas are. Everybody talks. You must really be in trouble the Generals at his house, you know, and so [ Laughs} um. But no. He says uh "Al" he said, "I'm no different than anybody else". Said," I'm no different than you." He said "I put my pants on the same way you do. One leg at a time." and He was never above or considered. You know me below him. My responsibility, the 01:47:00responsibility I took on was to. Naturally, as a chauffeur um and my responsibility was his uniforms, he looked immaculate. I mean, because

WOLFE: the world came around, you were house mouse again. [Laughs}

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, he was a perfectionist.

WOLFE: Mm-Hmm.

LOUTHIAN: Here's a graduate of West Point '45. Graduated from West Point. He was assigned to the Big Red 1 in Vietnam. 1ST Infantry Division. He. Then went into. I'm going to say. He fired. He was responsible. He had a Pershing division over 01:48:00in Germany. He fired the first Pershing missile. That the military had, or the Army had, and he fired the 400th one out at White Sands Missile Range. Or not, but I was told this. And but anyway. And they holds uh, he held a patent for the world's smallest wind tunnel. [laughs] Yeah. Like I said. West Point Graduate. And. I was interviewed one time. asked "just exactly what do you do for the general?" I says, first of all, none of your business because there was a. I said, first of all, is none of your business. I said, but I'll tell you. What I. Assume or I take on as my responsibility, it's my responsibility that those 01:49:00uniforms are immaculate, those shoes. His appearance is immaculate. It's my responsibility as, well. "Don't you think that" I says No, I said, I feel that's my responsibility. If he allows me, you know, and accepts. I says when he steps out in public. Or in front of people. Somebody is going to say. "Man, that looks," nah, that's the way a uniform should look

WOLFE: and that trust in you.

LOUTHIAN: that trust in me, um the family trust from him to me was. Off the charts

WOLFE: now, did you guys?

LOUTHIAN: He kept me out of two assignments for Germany. Um, so here we are, what? '71, I guess it is now. No. seventy no I got to Fort Dix and '72, '72

WOLFE: I think time on what you're looking at, '72, maybe '73,

LOUTHIAN: yeah.

Any way, cause we came up, oh, so then it time for him to transfer. Well, I'd already he'd a already got me out of one set of orders for Germany. I came down on levy and uh he said, "You want to stay?'. I don't mind. We had just had the, the twins at that time. So here, yeah, here we are. '74. So anyway, the next thing we know, we come down on orders for TECOM in Aberdeen. to become the CG up 01:51:00there. And so, we were transferred up there in '75. I came up ahead of him. [laughs] They sent me up here ahead of him. For about a month, they, they sort of put me on top of the list for housing and there being the CG driver, perks and, uh the office up here. They tried to, they tried to grill me for "what's he do?" or "what's he like?" I said, you're going to find out. I says, I'm not going to tell you. I said, I'm going to tell you. I says one thing I will tell you. He's a stickler for perfection. You better know what you're talking about when you're when you're when you tell them something. And I better be accurate. 01:52:00And I says all of I say I'll tell them what I'd say and. We said well. The difference between where we were at that Army Readiness Region 2 and TECOM was just like flipping off on a light switch. The different types of command, you know, him being the C.G. of a readiness command as opposed to a test and evaluation command. The Test Evaluation Command had their little things that they had to make sure so he could tell the Chief of Staff of the Army, or you had this, what happened and blah blah blah.

And there had to be accurate because of money and everything else. And he was the type of person, like I said. Uh, if you give him information, it better be 01:53:00accurate. He hated. To received inaccurate information.

WOLFE: So, for your guys, I mean, obviously there was that the there was respect, there's a rapport, there was the, you know, he's obviously a Major General.

LOUTHIAN: Oh, yeah.

WOLFE: You know, obviously that. But

LOUTHIAN: He called me out about

WOLFE: Did you guys? Yeah. Did you guys? Connect on a relationship of both your guys being in Vietnam,

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah.

WOLFE: was that something that you could connect on.

LOUTIAN: No two ways about it. Yeah, we could talk. We could converse. We had an individual right there at. Fort Dix in readiness region, our deputy who is a full bird Colonel, I'll never forget him to this day, Warren P. Allen. He had probably been in the same amount of ribbons as Chesty Puller had. He he was an 01:54:00adviser in Vietnam before Vietnam even started. He was an old what was a armor, he was an old armor, colonel, I think, and Warren P. Allen. And he had his own. He had his own Lincoln. Remember on the Lincolns. They had those suicide doors. He had one of these that he had restored, and that thing was kept immaculate, and he was single. [laughs] He was single. I don't know whether his wife had died or but uh, Warren P. Allen. I was the only one he would allowed to drive that car and when he would be out of town, he'd come back into McGuire or whatever. But I go to the house. I had the key to the car. I go over and get his car and go over to McGuire and pick 'em up

WOLFE: So, you would do some other duties in order to help others.

LOUTHIAN: Yeah, yeah. Oh, kind of stuff. But now on the General side, I had access to his house, to his cars, his kids, you know, I conversed with his kids they were growing up, one at that time was finishing up high school, getting ready to go to college and everything else. And uh his oldest uh and his oldest boy, he was sort of a wild one of the bunch. Long hair and all that stuff. And naturally, um, but he had from college, been through college and everything and moved away from town, of home from home and was living in Florida time. The general didn't really get to see him that much. Oh, that wasn't a real close relationship. But is there was this kid and they conversed well.um, But yeah,

WOLFE: so, this is, you know, you're down in Aberdeen. He come here seven to

LOUTHIAN: '75

WOLFE: '75 right? We, uh, you know, obviously the famous helicopter, you know, pulling out of Vietnam. What do you remember? Do you remember that or?

LOUTHIAN: I saw I saw it on the news. uh And. uh What was done was done. Um I can remember. Of hearing about and talking to some guys, even after I'd come back. Um, Engineers. And, you know, especially they're right around Da Nang and different areas right there would dig, [laughs] they dug the holes almost from 01:57:00the top of the ground to China and buried equipment there. OK. Prior to the two leaving uh. Some guys I can remember talking to of. Them pushing tanks off fantails, airplanes or helicopters or fantails of ships. To where the enemy didn't get a hold of them Um again, Afghan, Afghanistan didn't quite end up, that way.

WOLFE: So how did you, how did you feel, or I guess, your experiences seeing that, you know that Vietnam was truly finally over? You know, kind of that last little bit in '75.

To me, it was a. um, there were still political and had been pretty much political the whole-time frame. It was at that time there were certain to vote 01:58:00on if you were against. More likely, you going to get voted into office, what you did while you were in office, I had nothing. The individuals at the time that were running the country, I think. Pretty much. Um, Johnson got handled it. He was hell bent on being on the war and That's where we stayed the whole-time frame.

WOLFE: Mm-Hmm.

LOUTHIAN: I think there was a lot of. Lying to the American public, lying to the American military quite a bit. um I. uh, Agent Orange, "oh, no". Well. Yeah, it was defoliants, you know? Defoliants kill folinates. It did that, but when it 01:59:00was sprayed on individuals. Our own troops. Whether it be by mistake or by design.

WOLFE: Yeah. Or even see, just

LOUTHIAN: just don't lie to me and say, "well, no, it doesn't cause this, it doesn't cause that" don't. And. For years after I retired completely out of the military or all. Yeah. Um, that came into play as far as. Um. I went to the, to the VA, or DAV, initially, they initially got me 30 percent disability, OK? I felt that I was. I-I deserved it. OK, so but. With stipulations, the stipulations being you have to go back and be tested to see if your uh what ya 02:00:00call it improves, your impairment or what whatever improves for the most part hearing and it will never improve, eyesight will never improve. The exposure. For the most part, the damage is done. What's going to end up ultimately, you don't know. Um, I'm still to this day. I'm still dealing with it, going through cancer treatments right now for the third time.

WOLFE: and for your experience, you feel that's directly linked to

LOUTHIAN: Oh Yeah. I know so.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: I mean Sorry, it's all there.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: But it but it took individual studies done by different organizations to bring it out and get the government to, to admit to it or, yeah, you know, 02:01:00when I initially retired, that 30 percent was taken out of my retire pay. And given to me in a separate check. I received a disability check, and I received my retirement check, but my retirement check was less. The disability, so I was basically paying my own disability. For X amount of years, I don't know. Over time. Me not going back and being retested. I'm working, you know, providing for a family and I can't take off the time to go back and be retested. So, they were dropped. They dropped. I ended up all the way down to 10 percent. Well, it stayed 10 percent for years and years and years. Um, finally. uh Nick at church, 02:02:00said "you big dummy." He says, "you got all the symptoms on you" He says, "should make them pay you for it," right? He says "you're, you're going to take off on Monday." And he took me to Baltimore and this lady down there at the VA office and uh, I showed her paperwork that I had medical paperwork and everything I've had from the military. And she started laughing, I said, ok? What's so damn funny? And she's. "Why haven't you come in before now?" Right. The mindset again. Was somebody else out there worse off than I am. They need more than I do. I'm working, providing for, you know, I was doing OK. But you get to a point. You know, then when you find out naturally, that if you want to say the government basically lied to you, which I did for that time frame, you 02:03:00know? If you want to call it consultation, whatever, I did, get some back pay from it.

WOLFE: OK,

LOUTHIAN: Uh, probably not as much as I should, but that's beside the point. It's over, you know? But it shouldn't have happened to begin with, why lie to these individuals that gave their time and some of them their life uh, to do that And then you turn around and if you want to call it back stab 'em or lie, plus lie to them, you lied to the American people so or the American public. And you did it for X amount of years and got away with it, covered it up, basically covered it up and it took um, Commercial or individual studies by independent 02:04:00groups uh to bring it out to light. Your government lying to you.

WOLFE: Yeah,

LOUTHIAN: you should be, you know, you should be eligible for this. And then that's when it started opening up through the VA. And then you had the corrupt, at that time. Corruption in the VA to be, you know. Uh, Waiting 18 months for an appointment, eye appointment.

WOLFE: Yeah.

LOUTHIAN: You know, stupid. They wanted to make you feel like you were putting them out for doing the job. But if it weren't for us, they wouldn't have a job. Um, That's the way I thought about that. What did Forest say? that's all I'm gonna say about that. You know [laughs],

WOLFE: so, um, Definitely, you have a. A wealth of experiences of wealth of 02:05:00stuff I would love to, you know, maybe come back to another interview on some or other things, you know, more in depth in detail because you obviously have a long career, right? A long career. I would love to get more into the Army aspect of it, the fact that you two services and obviously more of the Agent Orange and stuff. But you know, here in 2022. Look back at, at Vietnam, what can you what can you say

LOUTHIAN: If I had to do over again? Probably. I-I mean, I think I would.

All the way to retirement, I don't know. You know, uh, when in retrospect, you know, to what went on back then as a pri- you know look at the crap that's going on today. I was in a time frame or in a era, if you want to call it. You felt it was the mindset was. You pretty much thought that was your responsibility. As an 02:06:00individual to help out, help the country out. Um, didn't really, you know, have the flower power and all that stuff. I mean, that came over time. Um, And the mindset of, of people. Started changing, I guess. What in the mid-70s or mid to late 70s? Um, you're talking, what, 50 years ago? I came home in '69. That's 50 some years ago. Uh, uh, it's weird when you sit back and, you know, sit down and think about it for 50 years of my life, I just know I was 73 years old last December and right and, you know, 50 years of my life. When I came home in '69, 02:07:00I was. Twenty-one years old. Twenty-one years old. I'm, Seventy-three. Well, it's the changes that you see over. It's uh, to some people, it's pretty eye opening. I mean, for someone they don't, they don't even want to. I. I get perturbed. Um. I try and live. My. One philosopher, if you want to call it. K.I.S.S. Keep it.

TOGETHER: simple stupid

LOUTHIAN: You can apply that to life. And um. Life goes on.

WOLFE: mmHmm.

LOUTHIAN: Reality takes over. Life goes on. You have to grieve over things, you have to. Once you analyze something, another famous actor said in a movie not too long ago "when you have the situation. You overcome this sit-situation and you adapt and move on." Clint Eastwood couldn't have said a truer pick about it. Situations arise. You overcome the situation. You're adapt to whatever, how you have to, and move on.

Everybody grieves in different ways. Um, I'm at, I'm at a point now. I could sit 02:09:00here and. Feel fricken sorry for myself, day in and day out. Sit on the friggin chair. Twenty-four hours a day. I've lost three siblings in less than two months. But You can't. Reality takes over. You can't. Um, I've been married fifty-one years. Coming up on fifty-one years. It hasn't been a life of. bed of roses. Uh But. We've been able to give and take. Yeah. Another famous actor said that in a movie. "Life was like a box of chocolates; you never know what you're going to get." You deal with it when you move on. That's my outlook on life. And 02:10:00when they when it's when they put me in the ground, whether it be in a box, cremate me or whatever when they put me in the ground. Uh, just burry me face down that way the whole world can (implies that the world can kiss his butt) [laughs] all right. That's yeah, it's my outlook.

WOLFE: So, um, yeah, before we conclude and, and that kind of stuff, is there anything else you know that maybe we didn't touch on? You want to or?

LOUTHIAN: Oh, I do. I mean, I'll continue. I mean,

WOLFE: I know. Yeah, and it's you know what? It's also like I say, [laughs]

LOUTHIAN: she gets on me all the time about [laughs]

WOLFE: like I say, I'd be more than happy. I know the, the, the Nunn's center would be more than Happy to get more information. We definitely are going to come back to another one. But

LOUTHIAN: Oh yeah. different areas uh.

WOLFE: Yeah. And so, thank you, Al. Thank you very much for sharing with me, brother. It's been an awesome experience. Love hearing stories. That kind of 02:11:00stuff again, its uh. Interview with Al Louthian in April 12, 20 22 when this concludes the interview. So, thank you very much, brother.

LOUTHIAN: Semper Fi,

WOLFE: Semper Fi, brother!