Interview with Mimi Daria, November 26, 2017

MOREHART: If you want to start out by telling us your name and introduce yourself.

DARIA: Mimi Daria, and my family came--my Italian family came to Over-the-Rhine in 1900. They had Antonio D'aria. So, originally it was D-'- a-r-i-a, so it would have been D'Aria, but then they wanted to be Americanized and now it's just Daria. Right? And I found the documents were he used to use the apostrophe.

MOREHART: How did you spell that?

DARIA: D-'- a-r-i-a.

MOREHART: Okay, just like you said it.

DARIA: And so, his name was Antonio and he married Anna Marie Alfonso, and there was about a thirteen year difference. So, they had their first child in May, in 1900, when they lived at--I think at--three, wait a minute--um, 312 Thirteenth Street or Twelfth Street, I can't remember. I don't remember the 00:01:00addresses. I should have brought that stuff, I forgot. Anyway, so they had her and then they had fourteen more children.

MOREHART: Oh my gosh!

DARIA: I know. She had children from 1900 to 1928, my great grandma, and um, the first one died when she was eighteen. So, she died 1918, in the month of May. She was born in May, she died in May, so we all--they called her May, her three sisters that lived. Well, when I did my genealogy, my great--her sister Angela said that she was buried at St. Joe Cemetery in Price Hill, but no one could ever find the grave. So, I kept going to the cemetery and they were like, "We do not have a May Daria here." And I'm like, yeah you do. We have to figure out why she's not listed in your records, it's got to be a spelling. So I said, search by her parents' names. So they did, well her real name was Delmonica Antonia D'aria, and she went by May. They called her that because she was 00:02:00born in May. So, that was kind of interesting. So, I did get to find her tombstone. And they always talk about her having auburn hair--she was the only one with auburn hair, everybody else had black hair. So, anyway she died, 1918. There was another little girl that died in 1912. She was four years--her gravestone says four years and six months and then there was a son that died when he was thirteen. But this was very common in those days, right? People lost children because medicine wasn't very good. So anyway they lived downtown. My great grandpa was a, um--he worked for the phone company. I have his certificate from 1930 where he had put in twenty-five years of service. I should have brought that, I didn't. And they lived at 1108 Spring Street for--that was the first home they owned, 1108 Spring Street, which is now the parking lot of the Verdin Bell.

MOREHART: Of what?

DARIA: The Verdin Bell, um, St. Paul's, I guess it is. So, it's a venue now they don't use it as a church. So, um, on the corner of Spring and Thirteenth there's a church called St. Mary's Baptist Church. St. Mary's Catholic Church is down the street, but Spring and Thirteenth, there's a--but, it's a Baptist Church now, but when they were growing up it was a public bathhouse.

MOREHART: Oh, really.

DARIA: Yeah, and so, Spring Street is called Spring Street because there was a natural spring, right? So, that's interesting. Um, that building--I did research on it--it has the original plumbing and the bath is still in the basement. It's fantastic. Yeah. I should have brought that research. I should email it to somebody. Um, if you look at the church from the front you'll notice that there are two front doors. Well it's because there was a men's entrance and a woman's entrance. So, it was a nickel to get in, to take a bath, you could 00:04:00take a hot bath. So, that would be why people would pay go to a public bath house, because not many people had hot running water. And for them they were so lucky it was right down the street. Now, how often they could have afforded it, I don't know, right, because she was always--my great grandma was always pregnant and beating the kids, and (laughs) he was, you know, he worked a lot.

Um, so, the second oldest girl was Ange, Angelina. And so she married Nick Carpinello in 1917, wait a minute, in 1919. Um, was it nineteen? Don't put that date. Because they dated--which is--when Aunt Ange-- he just died a few years ago, she lived to be a hundred and eight. Yeah and she was sharp as a tack. She talked about how Nick, when they were dating, would come to the house and he and her, and her mother would sit in the front parlor and that was their date. And I always thought that was so stupid. But the more I started studying 00:05:00about the culture of dating through the times, that was actually really common. You didn't allow them to be alone because, right, you just weren't going to do that, that just wasn't going to happen. So, the family did approve of him because he was Italian. So, they, uh, didn't get married until after he went into World War I. And he was, uh, sent to France where he was wounded and he ended up being awarded the Silver Star and the Purple Heart and I have a picture of him on my phone--well I'll show it to you in a little bit, um--in his backyard on Pendleton Street with all of his awards on his, uh, top. So, she stayed in--she stayed in Over-the-Rhine until 1950 with her husband Uncle Nick who lived on Pendleton. The family sold the Spring Street house in 1930 and built a house in Price Hill. Now, when I said to Aunt Ange--I mean Aunt Ange was very good-hearted, but she was, um--do you know many Italians?

MOREHART: Hm, not really.

DARIA: Do you--so, like, Italian women can be loud and harsh and so, she was very stereotypical in that way. And so, I said, well, you know, "Why did you move from Over-the-Rhine? I don't underst--like you stayed an extra twenty years, what made you finally leave?" And she said because all those damn Irish started moving in--which is really interesting because they were the only Italians in their little part of the neighborhood. Everybody else was German. But they liked the Germans because--can you guess why they like the Germans? Because they were good bakers. (laughs) Italians like to eat.

MOREHART: And drink beer.

DARIA: Oh yeah, and my people did like beer. So, um, Uncle Nick was in World War II. I'm trying to think of more Spring, of the, uh--they all went to the school--what was the old SCPA (School for the Creative and Performing Arts) originally? Um, was it Woodward? I don't remember what it was called 00:07:00back then, but I will tell, no wait a minute, it was called--um, it started with a P. Shoot I can't remember what it was--Pea--okay it will come to me. Anyway, the school that they all went to--I found a grammar book at the Ohio Book Store from like 1912 and it had that school stamp in it, Peaslee, Peaslee School. Um, so, that was kind of cool. But what else do you want to know? Let's see, there was a bathhouse--

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: --it was a public school, Peaslee?

DARIA: I don't know. It sounds public doesn't it. Because otherwise it would be Saint something, right? And they went to Saint Xavier Church, um, a lot. And they didn't go to whatever German church was--whatever Catholic church was the closest to them they didn't go to because that was where the Germans 00:08:00went. Which is so unbelievable when you think about how segregated it was, you know? Um, and I was actually--as I got older I said to my aunt, "I'm surprised that you buried your people at St. Joe's Cemetery, because that's a lot of German and Irish." But there really wasn't a big cemetery for Italians. You know back in the day, people wouldn't--not only would they not intermarry, they wouldn't be buried--so there were German cemeteries, and Irish cemeteries, and Jewish cemeteries. Because they just couldn't cross those lines, which is--I'm looking for that picture. Um, here it is. That's his backyard on Pendleton.

MOREHART: So this is Nick?

DARIA: Nick Carpinello.

MOREHART: Wow.

DARIA: He was an amazing, an amazing man. So, they ended up having three kids and they didn't name any of them Italian names and I said to Aunt Ange--so, they named them, well Tony, but, uh, the girls were Evelyn and Melvena, 00:09:00and Melvin. And I asked her why and she said she just was sick of those stupid Italian names. And I was like Italian names are beautiful. I mean what's beautiful about Melvin? (laughter) But, I think it kind of shows how they were trying to assimilate, right, into their neighborhood with non-Italian names, but their last name was still "Carpinello". Um, I'm trying to think. Do you have anything--

MOREHART: So, how long did your family stay in Over-the Rhine?

DARIA: So they were there from 1900, the bulk of them, 1900 to 1930, on Spring Street. Except for Aunt Ange, she was there until 1950.

MOREHART: And then she moved to the West Side?

DARIA: Then she moved to the West Side, in Price Hill. So then they all moved to Price Hill. And they should have stayed in Over-the-Rhine, property values! (laughs)

MOREHART: You never know!

DARIA: You don't! You don't ever know. They hated living in Price Hill, the kids, my great aunts, and my uncles, hated it. Um, the older ones that grew up in Over-the-Rhine, you know, at the time that they moved 00:10:00here--my Aunt Lena, my favorite, her, she always said I'll never forgive mama and papa for moving me to the country. And I always thought, this isn't exactly the country. Right? But I went through UC's (University of Cincinnati) digital, um, photography site of the old street improvements and there's a picture of their street in 1929 and it was, like, very foresty and it felt very rural from the pictures. And so--

MOREHART: And they decided to move there to get away from--

DARIA: --the city. Yeah. When you think about what was the city like. It was filthy. Right? It was a lot of industry. Um, they were able to move into a brand new home that had three bedrooms for their like, I don't know, eleven kids who were still at home, and it had indoor plumbing. It had an indoor bathroom and it had a yard and so great grandma and grandpa didn't come from urban life. They were farmers in Italy. So, when they came here, I'm sure they did not 00:11:00like the city. But their kids were born in the city and they loved the city. So, then they moved to Price Hill and they got--they didn't farm there but they were in the country-ish setting for that time. So, it's interesting though because I don't--they didn't all marry Italians, um, but they were really--they were kind of racist people. Um, except they would allow non-Italians--like I'm Korean my mom's Korean--and so most likely they didn't like the Koreans because of the war, until my brother and--well until my mom came here with my dad and my brother. Then all of a sudden they like the Koreans. And like, they didn't like the Jews, but then my aunt--my cousin Tony married a Jewish woman so, then all of a sudden they loved the Jews. And you know I tell people that and, it's like, some of my friends are like, Oh my God! But I actually think it was very typical-- don't, do you think so--of that time?

MOREHART: You know somebody-- you have that connection, and--

DARIA: Yeah, they were funny people. Uh, you know they were big eaters, big cookers, loud. They were fun. They were opinionated--but they were--um, you know none of them were educated I don't think past the eighth grade, which is also pretty typical. So, when I was younger, I would get really, like, irritated with them, um, I'm must like, you're so stupid, how could you think this, but their world was very small. Right? They were mostly friends with each other, their siblings, or nieces and nephews and they all lived--when I was a little girl, we lived on Flower Avenue. I could walk ten houses up, turn right stop and see my aunt and uncle who were about five houses away, then I could walk about ten more houses, turn right on West Eighth, see my Uncle Al and Aunt Millie, my Uncle Pasquale and Aunt Ruth, cross the street see Marguerite and Uncle Elmer and walk about a quarter-of-a-mile down and see Ange and Uncle Nick. So, they 00:13:00always stayed close, so their world just wasn't very big. If they traveled, they traveled together. And so I don't think they had much exposure to--and I think it's typical of that generation don't you think? So, I mean I don't want to paint them as being, like, bad people, they were wonderful people, but they were, who they were. (laughing)

MOREHART: Can you talk about any family traditions?

DARIA: Yeah. Yes. So, when I was growing up, we always, on Thanksgiving, had the typical turkey dressing which they put parmesan cheese and garlic in, and, um, that stuff. But, then, on the side there was the homemade red sauce and the homemade Alfredo sauce. Right? And so, then they make homemade ravioli. So, the house would have just cookie trays of ravioli or noodles just all over the place. And people did--

MOREHART: Sounds very (??)

DARIA: It was. So, I do that-- I still--we, my kids--we don't even have turkey. Um, we have, well, actually, my youngest son, he's--one of his 00:14:00friends, it's, you're having, your mom is making stuffed shells and two homemade sauces for Thanksgiving? and Nick said, Well we'll have ham and dressing for the white people. (laughing) So, then I put that on Facebook and one of my cousins said we're having ravioli and meatballs. So, that tradition carried through all of the cousins which is kind of fun.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Did you ever hear anything about where they would shop for food, or--

DARIA: Findlay Market. Yeah, they loved Findlay Market. Um, they also talked about, was it Sixth Street Market? Fifth Street? Sixth Street Market because the Fifth Street Market was torn down for the fountain, so that would have been before then. I guess it was the Sixth Street or the Fourth Street Market. Because there were about five or six markets right? I know Findlay was their favorite, absolutely their favorite. And there was an aunt that came--so Anna Marie's came, Anna Marie came with her mom and her two sisters. And 00:15:00one of the sisters names with Fortunata and she married Vincent Petrocelli. So, her name was Fortunata Alphoso Petrocelli and they owned a fruit market in Clifton on Calhoun. And so my aunts all talked about how the Petrocellis were so rich and that when they would go there they were allowed to have fruit for free or a piece of candy and you know I wonder, were they really rich? They couldn't have been rich. But to my family of fourteen, having a piece of fruit was such a treat because they were poor, I mean, they were, they were just poor people right? And they--none of them drove--of the fourteen, actually only one drove. They all took the bus and they didn't complain about that. They love the public trans--they thought we had good public transportation.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Did they ever say anything about the incline?

DARIA: Yes. Yeah. Because my aunt would take the bus from West Eighth to wherever it dropped her off and she would take the incline down. 00:16:00Down, so, the Price Hill incline. So, the Price Hill incline is where the Incline, Incline Public House is now. But I don't know exactly how that route went. I don't, I don't have any idea how that--and then she ended up downtown and she would take a bus to Norwood to the Zumbiel Box Factory. Now, two of them were seamstresses--uh, down in Over-the-Rhine somewhere, but I have no idea--I would love to figure out where they worked. And they didn't do anything with it. Like they--I think they really probably worked for a seamstress, you know what I mean, and maybe they did the buttons and the hemming.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: So, they were here when the canal still had water?

DARIA: Oh yeah, they talked about swimming in it. Yeah--and how dirty it was but, that they still swam in it. And my Aunt Ange talked about how, um, she remembered it was like such a big deal in her neighborhood when the first White Castle opened. Um, it was down here somewhere. Do you know about 00:17:00this? I don't know where it was and I know she--it's one of my big regrets in life--my Aunt Ange, she lived to be a hundred and eight, that I didn't tape record these conversations, um because she was, like, a walking history book. She could tell you anything about World War I. She can tell you about when it started. She remembered, like, the date of when Pearl Harbor was bombed, she just remembered--because somehow she--well, because she had somebody in every war--so, I think maybe for her it was a lot more personal than for us if we don't have somebody in it, right?

So, yeah, she talked about the canal. They talked about Rollman's Department Store--which is where Shillito's was. Did you know of Rollman's? If you get on YouTube and you google "Rollman's Christmas", somebody has footage from like the thirties or forties that is amazing.

MOREHART: Wow!

DARIA: Um, I'm trying to think what all are all the things that, that they talked about? They talked about the canal. They talked about the streetcar. They talked about where it was still common for--Aunt Ange talked about she remembered the horse and buggies--like being--like it was like at the end of that time, I guess--because she was born in 1903. I don't know when exactly they came off the streets. Do you know? The horse and buggies? I have no idea. But she talked about that. And she talked a lot about, um, how hard life was--because you know my friends always wanted to go see her because she was like this living antique right, I mean how many people live to be a hundred and eight and to see what she saw--you know, I mean, she remembered pre-war World War I, which is unbelievable. But she--my friends would say, Oh, I wish I could live in simpler times, and she would just get so angry because it wasn't simple. You didn't go to Kroger and pick-up your toilet paper and your flour, 00:19:00and your milk. That was three different stores. Right? And it was a pain in the ass in the winter time and so everything was hard. You now, she talked about boiling water for a bath. She talked about um--just everything was hard. Having heat was hard. Having hot water was hard. Cooking was hard, because it took so many steps that we take for granted now. I wouldn't want to live back then. I always think I wish I could go back for four hours. Right?

MOREHART: Time travel!

DARIA: Just for four hours.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Did she ever say anything, I'm just thinking, about historical events from 1900, like the anti-German hysteria? Did they ever--

DARIA: She didn't hate Germans, um, but she was a cook and she had--her neighbors were German bakers and she was fat and she loved to eat so, she like befriended them. But my other aunt, the beauty, she did talk about 00:20:00Germans and she didn't like the Germans so much. Um, in fact, she was a--she was wonderful--I mean she raised her eight brothers after her mom died and she got my dad out of the orphanage when his parents got sick, twice, and she gave him a home. And when our mother abandoned us, she gave us a home, so I just want it said that she was wonderful. But she was not without sin. (laughing) So, uh, she did not like Germans so much. Now I think she had a few token German friends, but that anti-German sentiment never left her. It didn't. And she would say like, if I said, my friend, um, Michelle Neiheisel and I are going downtown", she would say, "Oh goddamn phlegm flippers", she called them phlegm flippers because of--she said they, Germans, would spit when they talked. So, I think when she was young, that she probably lived around a lot of German immigrants, right? And so, when they would speak with that accent, so yeah, she 00:21:00would call them goddamn phlegm flippers. Sometimes she called them goddamn Germans but if you ever said the word 'dago', your name would forever be shit in her house. So, it was just--

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Did you get the sense that that was from growing up with them or was it from like, her, I guess it would be her brother-in-law being in World War I?

DARIA: I think that honestly--I think she thought she was better than them. Um, and so there was about a seven year age difference between her and Aunt Ange, the one that was friends with the Germans. Um, so, I don't know what different experiences they had. I know she talked about Halloween--that there are a lot of Germans in Over-the-Rhine that wouldn't give her, the Italians, candy, so I don't know if was--how many Germans-- or if it was like one or two 00:22:00and it was just such a painful experience that it carried over until she died at 86 years old. I don't know what that was. Um, they were--I'm trying to think--she loved Over-the-Rhine. She loved downtown. She loved walking. She talked about the theater. She would go to the theaters and I always try to think, what theater would she have walked to? So you think the Emery?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: That's a possibility.

DARIA: Because it would have been there, right? And I don't know what theaters were there that aren't there now. I have no idea. But they loved the show. And so Word War II, I think more than World War I, everybody romances World War II, right? And so, I don't know why we do that--but we have a romance with World War II--and she certainly did. And when she talked about World War II, and you have to think she had three brothers in that war, and she still 00:23:00romanticized it, because like the Union Terminal they would have these balls and Music Hall would have balls and she loved, like, to get fancy and go glamorize and dance and, um, she loved that. So she talked about how, like, when her brother would come home on leave they would meet under the clock on Fifth and Vine, right? You know where the clock is, on the corner? So, that was like the meeting place. She talked about that. Uh, she talked about the phones being different, how it was like Blackburn five -- four - nine. I never understood it. But she talked about that a lot. Uh, she definitely though did have a romance with that time of her life. She never married but I always wondered if she had fallen in love with somebody during that time because it was such a romantic time it seems like for her. Um, she talked about Coney Island a lot. She talked about--um, I don't know. She was really like enamored with 00:24:00anybody famous, you know, and I think that was a time for that because in the '40s, late '30s, there were talkies, right? The movies were talking right, so, I think she would have been really enamored with that for sure. She was a fun--they were all fun. They were just very much representatives of their time period. I guess we all are. I mean I wonder what my kids think of stupid things that I think, right? (laughing) I mean, like they think it's stupid that I'm here right now. (whispers) They're like, "Mom why would you even do that?" But they talked about, um--I wish that I would have been--that my grandpa would have lived longer. So he was younger than her and he was in, uh, he was, um, in the war. And he was, what was he? He was, um, counterintelligence. And 00:25:00so, he spent a lot of time in Egypt. And so, my dad would tell you that of all of them, that he was the one that had kind of a broader perspective because he went to eighteen different countries. But the women, even women that worked back then, I mean--they still were isolated, don't you think? I mean, they still, especially an unmarried woman. She never married. So, she just raised everybody else's kids. I wish I could think of more, I mean there's certainly has to be more stories.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: (asks about photos of Over-the-Rhine)

DARIA: Yeah, Oh I shouldn't have put them back. Well, that's not Over-the-Rhine, but that's her in Eden Park. Yeah, she was beautiful, but I will show you the Over-the-Rhine.

MOREHART: So, did women work in your family?

DARIA: Yes. Women have always worked. People will tell you that women didn't work. Women have always worked their asses off they just didn't always get paid for it. (laughs) Except for in the Black communities. If you read 00:26:00history in the early and mid-1800s, Black women did work because Black men weren't allowed to work, if they were free. So, but, in that culture, at that time, that was very normal for the woman, the Black woman to take in, uh, wash, or watch children, or clean houses, or whatever. But my girls, they were very happy that they got to live in a time when women could work outside of the home. My aunt was very proud of her job at the box factory, because she had done what her mother never did, right? She was able to earn her own money. She was able to buy her own clothes. She was not beholden to a man. She did what she wanted. She had her own bank account and that's something that her sisters didn't do. Her sisters were all beholden to their husbands. Why am I taking that?

So this would have been in front of their house at 1108 Spring.

MOREHART: Wow!

DARIA: I know. I wish I had a brick. Just one brick of that house. It didn't have, um, hot water. Let me find, Rensler's. So, this is my cousin, uh, what the hell, Al. So he would have been her, one of her first nephews. Do you know where Rensler's is on Vine? Do you know where Scotty's is? It's a couple stories down. And if you go there, their front little walkway there it has Rensler's in tile so, it's still there. Is it Rensler's? It is isn't? I think it's Rensler's. I can't see that far. Okay, there are some really good Over-the-Rhine pictures here, but I didn't separate--oh, these were probably taken down there. But let me find the fun ones. I should have kept them out because she scanned them all. See, I think she was in love with him. There are tons of pictures of them together but like nobody talks about it, like sshhh. Probably because 00:28:00he wasn't Italian. (laughs) Um, that would have been in front of their house on Spring.

This is--I can't believe that I forgot--but I actually did research on this picture because I wanted to know where in the hell this was taken and it was taken right around the block from Spring Street somewhere. It was like a hardware store. Um, I can't remember what it was called or what street. And actually a friend of mine helped me do the research and I messaged him but he didn't have--he didn't respond. But, that picture--I just wonder why she would have been there because she didn't do physical work. She was kind of--she was kind of a princess in a way. She was. She was sort of like a cross between a saint and a princess. These were all my grandpa from when he was in the war. I have some of his stuff. I mean, it doesn't pertain to Over-the-Rhine 00:29:00but, like, when he came back from Egypt, he brought back um, like handmade, um, bookends of elephants that were carved in ivory and, like, none of the family wanted them--I know-- because I think they just thought it was a bunch of old crap.

Okay, I swear there are Over-the-Rhine pictures in here that are really fun but, I have to find them. There's one. Um, Rensler's. Yeah. Isn't it?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Yep.

DARIA: Yeah. So that's her. That's her sister, there's Mark and then these are friends. I don't know who these, the other women are. But I'm always interested in these pictures because of their clothing. It's sort of minstrel-ish. Don't you think? And so I think that would have been around that time period--when they were still doing minstrel shows ,wouldn't it?

MOREHART: Could be.

DARIA: Because that's exactly what it looks like to me. Does it you?

MOREHART: I don't know.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Because this almost looks like work outfits. And this looks like social.

DARIA: They just look so odd to me. I don't know and I didn't write anything in the back, of course. So, that's downtown but it's not Over-the-Rhine. So we were--oh that's her dressed as a prostitute for Halloween. See, she was a funny lady. She was hilarious. That would probably be, um, her niece, Melvina and her. Is that Rensler's or is it Benjamin's? Rensler's okay. And then see, I don't have good Over-the-Rhine, um, pictures in terms of the buildings. I just have pictures that I know were taken.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Do you have any more of those?

DARIA: No I don't. But boy those windows are nice aren't they? There's my dad and my aunt in the orphanage--these people-- I forget there's a story 00:31:00to them. That's my grandmother, hold on, I don't know where I put the picture--they scanned a bunch of them. There's my dad. And see they're always at Coney Island. That's all they ever did was swim. I'm sure that this is Over-the-Rhine--just based on the way it looks, but I just don't know these people. Hold on, let me turn it this way so I can see what in the heck, where the pictures are that they scanned, because there were about six or seven of them. Okay, I'm going to have to start over. I'm sorry, I'm so disorganized.

MOREHART: No, no. It's a lot.

DARIA: Um, the people--

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Did they ever say anything about how large the Italian community was in Over-the-Rhine, because you said they wanted everyone to date Italians, so there must have--and your great uncle was from Pendleton 00:32:00Street, so--

DARIA: She's the only one that married an Italian though. So, there must not have been an abundance. And with the younger ones, I would assume that they were wanting to get away from that stereotype. Um, just because that's what young people do. You know, if it's going to make mom and dad happy I'm not going to do it. (laughing)

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Do you know why they came to Cincinnati?

DARIA: Okay, so here's the story. So, now this is all oral history. The story is that Antonio, the, orig--the great grandpa, came here because, um, that he came here and made money and went back. Which is very typical, right, of immigrants. But he had to have had a sponsor or something. Or, I can't imagine why he came here unless he knew somebody. The story is before he got here, that he went and, he lived in New York. Now, I tried to find him but, believe it or 00:33:00not, there were a ton of Antonio Darias. It's like Tony Smith, right. But he couldn't find work so supposedly he was a nude model for the art museums up there. We don't know, but we're all like, oh my God you're so progressive. But we don't know if that's true. But that's what his daughters swore, that that was true. Um, okay, I already showed you that picture and that one. And I think this is Over-the-Rhine. Do you think that could be the Alms and Doepke building?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: I don't know(?? ) Alms and Doepke building--

MOREHART: Oh, it's hard to tell.

DARIA: I know, I would need one of my other friends. So I have friends that can look at a building and tell you what it was and where it was and I don't have that kind of memory. But that I would think was down here. This definitely was. Okay, now wait--

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: So, after the new nude model, I want to go back--

DARIA: Ok, so the nude model, he was gorgeous.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: That was in New York, right? So how did he--

DARIA: So we don't know. So then I found him in the 1895 phone book. Well, not phone book-- whatever, directory--and he was a, um, a laborer and he lived on Florence Avenue which is in, is that in Clifton or Corryville? It's in one. It's in, like, I never know the difference in Clifton and Corryville, I don't know the line, but he was--

MOREHART: We need a map.

DARIA: Yeah, we do. Yeah. He was, um, that's what he did and I don't know if it was an arranged marriage. I've always wondered that.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Her family was from here?

DARIA: No, they came over--the earliest record I found of them was, after she married him. I was never able to find--

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: So, she married him in New York and came to Cincinnati?

DARIA: No, we think in Cincinnati.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: They were married in Cincinnati.

DARIA: That's what I think. And the reason I think it is, is because that is what I've been told, but I've never seen a document.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: So, her family lived in Over-the-Rhine as well?

DARIA: Oh yeah, because, uh, well her people, see, they all did marry Italians, um, which is probably why they were the favorites. The Delmonico's, so one of her sisters married into the Delmonico family. And what was really weird--was I was looking going through the census and the Delmonicos and the Darias, they all lived, like I don't know, next door to each other or around the block. And they named their kids the same names. So, I was really confused on the census because they're all these same names. So, I don't know if it's because the immigrants didn't know many names. I just never understood why. Here's--oh you already saw that one. I'm thinking it's maybe the phone ones. Oh there's one, that would have been--see I don't have any Over-the-Rhine street scenery. Mine are just family stuff. But, I am going to show you some of the pictures on my phone. So, anyway he came here--what'd I do with my phone? Anyway, he came here, 00:36:00he married Anna Marie. Um, they said they often talked about what a cold country he came from. So he's from Northern Italy, I guess closer to Switzerland. Um, she was from Campania? I can never remember--I have it all written down but, I'm so bad at remembering the names. Uh--they said that she was mean as shit, Anna Marie, but I, I mean, she had to have been. She lost three kids, she had fourteen. Didn't have an indoor bathroom. What do you expect? (laughter) I'm like, mean--I really do want you to see some of these though.

Okay, so, I showed you that, right, and that's the Pendleton Avenue, that's--that's a prize. He never talked about the war. He wouldn't talk about it. He had a three-day pass to go see his mother and before he was to 00:37:00leave, he was in France, he got shot. And so the Army contacted his mother and said he's been wounded but, you can come here to see him. They had arranged it to be paid and she wouldn't. So, we never saw his mother again. So, my Aunt Ange, his wife, always hated his mother for that because she thought that was just so awful--but really was it awful? I mean could you imagine you haven't seen your kid, who left as a young teenager, for all of those years, and the next time you see him he's injured maybe dying--for all she knew. What was she going to do? That would have killed her.

Okay, so here's a picture. This is Spring Street.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: That's the 11-oh?

DARIA: This is 1106, right next door to 1108, so, this would have been their neighbor's garbage can. (laughing) So, this is Uncle Brownie. He was World War II, occupied China, um, well there is one part about him but it's being recorded I did find when he died, and we went through his Army box. You know 00:38:00he was a Marine, of course he was, he--and there was, um, all of these, like--okay, we're not going to talk, we'll talk about it afterward. Okay, so anyway, that's my Uncle--did I already show you this one? So, that's Uncle Brownie, Uncle Roberto, James--so there were two Jameses. One of them died when he was thirteen. She got pregnant again and named the next one James. I think that's just so creepy and somebody in the family-- I've seen them--have the picture of the dead James, in his casket, in the living room because that's what people used to do. Which is really freaky. So, these are their--they're brothers and these are their nieces and nephews, nieces, because back, you know, when you have fourteen kids then they're spaced out.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Do you have any sense of what killed him?

DARIA: The boy?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: This was in Over-the-Rhine, right, in the city of Cincinnati?

DARIA: The girl, her, um--this is probably Liberty Hill, I would think. I love this picture. So, they scanned--I'm emailing these. Um, the girl that 00:39:00died and eighteen, and here's another picture of them dressed goofy. Um, May's death certificate says that she died of, like, gastritis--like it's probably like an appendicitis thing. The little girl, Marie, her tombstone says, Aged four years six months. I always thought that's so sad. She died--it's a mystery. Um, my aunts all said that there was a bush that had berries that they were not allowed to eat and that she did eat them and that night she died. So, they all wondered if she ate poisonous berries, if she died--who knows, I mean the cross-contamination back then must have just been unbelievable, I would think. And then the boy didn't die on Spring Street. He died--I think the year they moved to this house on Flower. Uh, see you can see the-- oh, no, it's 00:40:00not in that picture. There's one picture where you can see the stars for everybody in the military. The boy died--they had whatever kind of heat--were they radiator kind of heaters? So, they said that he died of--what's the word, asphyxiation, is that how you say it? But one of my cousins recently said that she did not believe that and she thought he committed suicide. So, I don't know, and you wonder, like, was that transition from what he knew up there--I don't know, we'll never know because back then people didn't talk about suicide. You just didn't talk about stuff, right? My aunt's couldn't even say cancer, right? They would say the "c word." If somebody was pregnant, married or not, it was she's--people just--were your family like that--because they're weird. I don't know. Everything, from what it seems like to me-- think in some ways 00:41:00people were more private, maybe and I think there were things like they must have had something about mental health, for one, that brought shame on the family and I wonder if they had that same feeling about cancer. If they felt like it was some sort of thing that you brought on or that you're ashamed. I don't know, but it was definitely a no-no.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: So, Antonio and Anna Marie, they were both in Price Hill when they passed away?

DARIA: Yeah. She died December 7th, 1941. Is that Pearl Harbor?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: That's Pearl Harbor.

DARIA: And the story is that--all--well, three of her boys were in the military and when that happened she just-- (sound). And so, my grandpa was the first person from Price Hill to join the military. I mean to, to sign up, volunteer, for World War II and so my family always thought that that was so great. Oh he was the first person in Price Hill and I'm , like, well how big is 00:42:00it. Who cares? I mean the whole freaking world was in it. But they all acted like it was a big deal. But, they, uh, also talked a lot about how much they said that the world was safer, in terms of you could go out at night in groups. They would, you know, they would walk everywhere. They would walk to the theater, they would walk to wherever at night. But I don't know if the world was ever safer. I just think that now we have a better news source, right? We know within a minute if Turkey gets bombed.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: They said that Price Hill was safer than Over-the-Rhine? Or just--

DARIA: No, they thought that the times were safer. Harder, but safer. And Aunt Ange talked about--there was a part of Over-the-Rhine that she didn't like--like around Green Street. That's right around here. Evidently there was a lot of, um, houses of ill repute around that area--so, they did not go that way.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: So, they were in Over-the-Rhine during prohibition. Did that ever--do they have any stories about prohibition?

DARIA: They talked a lot about George Remus, and I'll tell you why. Because when they moved to Price Hill, their house was about a mile from his. So, the story was--here's their story--that after he went to prison, or wherever, or maybe after he was dead, I don't really remember now, that they would sneak over there. It was a really easy walk. They would sneak over to his mansion and they would swim in the pool. But they swear that that house is haunted. Every one of them that swam in that pool swore that that house was haunted and that they would your voices and that they would hear loud noises and nobody lived in it. Now, as an adult, I mean obviously somebody was probably messing with them because what in the hell were they doing climbing that fence and swimming in that pool, right? (laughs) But, um, they definitely would have not been for prohibition. No, they would not have been. In fact, Uncle Nick made 00:44:00his own wine and beer in the basement. Oh, I never thought of that, in the basement.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: In Pendleton or on?

DARIA: When he lived--when they moved to Price Hill they moved on Palos but I would have to think that he did it on Pendleton too. He wouldn't have just moved to Price Hill and learned how to do it. Because he was born in 1895. So, by the time he moved to Price Hill, he would have been fifty-five, in 1950. Oh yeah, I'm sure he was making brew way before he moved to Palos, I'm sure. You know what he did for a living? He couldn't read or write. He was the elevator operator at the courthouse and at Gidding and Jennings. It was kind of funny, as a--he could fix anything. Um, you know, today's world we--I feel like we hold, um, education, you know, up here if someone's educated, ooh! And then if you're not educated you're not intelligent, but he was clearly a genius. He was illiterate. Um, he actually didn't sign his draft papers, my aunt signed them for him. But he could build you a house, he could do the electricity, 00:45:00he could do the plumbing. I mean that is a high form of intelligence. He was incredible.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: So he was born in 1895, in Over-the-Rhine?

DARIA: Uncle Nick? No he was born in Italy.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Okay, and when did he come to--

DARIA: I don't remember the exact year. But he came in time to serve in the war.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Did he ever go to--ever went to any of the public schools when he was living--

DARIA: I guess he did. He was a teenager. He came by himself. But I don't understand, nobody really understands why, or if they do, they've--I've never heard the story of why did he land in Cincinnati. I always just think, there's--somebody knew somebody is what I always think, right? And somebody paid somebody some money but I don't know that there was ever any long lasting contacts. So Aunt Ange's story is from the minute that he saw her on Spring Street that he completely smitten and that he had his eye on her and that he kept his mind on her while he was in the war. So, that was her story. 00:46:00(laughs) And she dearly loved him. They loved--they were--they dearly did love one another. They were a good team. You know what I mean? Some couples are just a good team. But now, while, you know the Bay Horse Cafe? The Bay Horse Café, do you know that bar? It's on Main Street. Yeah. Because it's sort of diagonal to the Ohio Book Store. Do you know where the Ohio Book Store is? Okay, so it's kind of diagonal- -so that bar is the oldest running bar in Cincinnati. And it originates back to like 1830-- in different locations but the same name and everything. So, my Uncle Herman, see that they got Americanized as time went on, he went to that bar every day and then he would go to church.

But when I was a little girl, I was about eleven, I would take the bus downtown by myself. Turns out I wasn't allowed to go do that. I just talked to 00:47:00my dad about this the other day and he said no I would never have let you do that. I didn't know, I went. So I would take--because the bus was, like, from here, you know, the bus line was easy, it was a straight shot. So, I would come downtown with like five dollars. But if I bought--I would buy earrings, and um, there were a lot of, like--back then there were more junk stores downtown like dime store type places. So I could go buy like a twelve pack of earrings for a buck, have a grilled cheese at Newberry's, right, but I would run out of money. I would go to the Bay Horse Cafe because I knew my uncle would be there and he would have already had a pint or two. And he would give me more money. So, I would go there and he would give me a five and I would go back to Newberry's and buy more stuff. (laughing) Um, I can't think of--

MOREHART: When you came down here, what was your impression of Over-the-Rhine growing up?

DARIA: As a kid? When I was a kid, you didn't come to Over-the-Rhine. 00:48:00That would have been in the '70s. Over-the-Rhine would have been pretty Appalachian. Don't you think? Around that time? When I was a kid, the downtown that I would go to would have been Seventh Street--um Shillito's, um--where the fountain. Fourth Street was a wonderful street back then. There was McAlpin's, there was Mabley and Carew, and Pogues, right. So, that whole area was just nothing but wonderful department stores and eateries. Um, so, we didn't--I didn't venture to Over-the-Rhine. I would go to Trivets. But was that in Over-the-Rhine?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: I want to say that Trivets is south of Central Parkway.

DARIA: Is it? I wish it was still there. It was a great store. It was just like big, like, junk store that I can't even, like, you could get anything from combat boots, to sparkly earrings, to camouflage coat from, somebody donated from the Vietnam War. It was just the best thrift store ever. But we would go sometimes, but this I think was more of the '80s or '90s, to the 00:49:00Woodward theater when it was Greg's Antiques. Do you remember that? Would that have the '80s or '90s you think?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: It just recently changed over to a theatre, back to a theatre, a couple of years ago.

DARIA: So it was an antique store then? So, we would go there and I do remember, I think, maybe, in the '90s, was Shaddeau Bread on Main Street then? Okay, so, we would go to the bread store. But it would not have been by walking. We would have went there because somebody gave us a ride, we--somebody's older brother or something would have given us a ride. We would never have went to Over-the-Rhine. It just wasn't--it was do--it was always more residential than the Fourth Street, Fifth Street. Don't you think? Yeah, it was more of a residential. That was always more businessey.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: What about Findlay market, or did you go--

DARIA: Yeah, we would go to the market.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: What about Music Hall?

DARIA: Oh yeah, my prom was at Music Hall. But do you know, I can 00:50:00remember going to shows at Music Hall and I have no memory of Washington Park. How is that?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Washington Park wasn't what it is today.

DARIA: Was it just a piece of crap? Like, I have not even this much of a memory of even being aware that there was a park there. Isn't that weird? I just--I wonder where we parked. I wonder all these things about it. But back then, there wasn't--I don't think there were restaurants and stuff around Music Hall. Were there? Like now, in front of Music Hall you can have your choices of eateries and--

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: What I remember about Music Hall from that era, was the Children's Concerts. They would have the school field trips.

DARIA: Yeah, yeah.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Did you do that?

DARIA: I feel like we did school field trips but, we did--Music Hall was for school events like dances. But when I would go to plays and musicals and stuff, it was at the old SCPA. Because in my mind in 1984, I mean going to 00:51:00that to see a play for two bucks was just like going to the Albee Theater. It was just, I mean, we would get dressed up and it was just a school performance but that building was so beautiful, that--

MOREHART: Oh, sorry.

DARIA: No, that was it.

MOREHART: Do you spend a lot of time in OTR now?

DARIA: Yes.

MOREHART: Do you have places you like, or--

DARIA: Yes. So, here's where I go. I go to Findlay Market and then there's that bookstore on Main Street, next to Mannequin. Do you go to Mannequin the vintage clothing store?

MOREHART: Oh Iris?

DARIA: Well, Iris, yeah, and then Mannequin is the vintage clothing store; I go there. And there used to be a really good pizza place and they closed it down. But I don't remember what they called it. It was kind of a dive, but man they made the best pizza, the best. And so then, of course, I take my grandson in the summertime, to, um, the park.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Washington Park?

DARIA: Yeah. Because of--well, we have these little kids down the street, they're immigrants from Honduras, and so when my grandson comes over I pick those kids up too and we came down--the first time I took them to Washington Park the little boy said, We don't have any money, and I'm like, What do you need money for, and he's like, So we can go in there and play in that water and on those slides and swings, and it doesn't cost money? And I said no. And he's like, So my mom doesn't have to give you money? No, and it was just like an eye-opener, you know? And I don't know what their life was like in Honduras but I'm assuming it wasn't great and they love living in Price Hill, which says a lot. But they were absolutely just like Disneyland amazed by that. And so that was really fun because then we could walk down whatever that street is right across, in, on the left is a pretzel store, and then you go straight and there's the bakery. What's that famous bakery that everybody loves? 00:53:00Holtman's, Holtman's?

MOREHART: Yeah, donuts.

DARIA: Yeah, so then they get, they like to get pretzels, like, sweet and salty. So they love that. But yeah, we do, we spend--my husband doesn't like it though, but my grandson still, he's only six so he still likes me. (laughs) So he'll still do stuff with me. But no, I don't remember--did you come to Over-the-Rhine much in the '70s and the '80s? Even the '90s were sketchy.

Well, and then, I think in the '90s, in the late '90s, would have been, when I think, when Main Street was trying to make a comeback and then we had the riots, right ? And then it just went quiet, for years. Wouldn't you say?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Right.

DARIA: A decade maybe?

UNKNOWN INTERVIWER: Yeah, I mean there used to be Barrel House Brewing on, I would say, Twelfth or Thirteenth. There was the Main Street Brewery and then there were the--Harvey C, and the, well Japp's was always there, and then another--

DARIA: Has Japp's like been there forever?

UNKNOWN INTERVIWER: Yeah, forever.

DARIA: Okay, and then all of it closed but Japp's?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: It changed. So yeah. But it didn't stay what it was. The breweries went out of business, and then now you have a whole second generation of breweries in Cincinnati.

DARIA: I don't ever know what to think about those breweries. I went on those tours and I was afraid for my life. They took us down into the--I felt like I was like twelve stories underground on these rickety, like scaffolding and I just thought oh my god I'm going to die. But, you get addicted to wanting to know what's down there so you risk your life anyway, right?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: You were four stories underground.

DARIA: It felt like twelve. Have you done that?

MOREHART: I haven't done it yet.

DARIA: It's really scary. Did you think that it was scary?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: I've given tours.

DARIA: (snorts)

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Which one did you go on?

DARIA: Okay, let's see. We met at Arnold's.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Was there scaffolding? Did you go down Gerke, does that sound like the name?

DARIA: I feel like it was by that candy store on, uh, Ninth Street.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Yep. Yeah!

DARIA: Oh, I was petrified. Literally, like I felt like I needed to 00:55:00be a circus acrobat because I just knew, that thing--oh, I think that's Petra--Mike Morgan was the storyteller.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Right. Mike's great.

DARIA: He is. But I questioned some of the stuff that he said, but he is a great storyteller. But is Arnold's Over-the-Rhine technically? Okay. Where is Over-the-Rhine technically?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Central Parkway is the southern border

DARIA: Oh!

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: And then you go over to about Reading Road on the east and then on the west it's still Central Parkway. Central Parkway curves around Music Hall and goes north.

DARIA: Okay, yeah.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: And then the northern part of it is--uh, there around Jackson Brewery and all that when you go up the hill. So you have Over-the-Rhine, you have Central Parkway, and then you still have numbers, up above Central Parkway. And then after the numbers is Liberty Street.

DARIA: Okay.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Because that used to be the northern limit of Cincinnati. And then above that, it's still Over-the-Rhine up until, like, Mohawk Street.

DARIA: Okay, and then we're getting to the West End?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: No, the West End is over on the Central Parkway part. The northern part would be Fairview, uh, uh, maybe Mount Auburn, maybe over by Main Street.

DARIA: Okay. I'm so terrible at directions. So, Kenyon-Barr, Queensgate. It was never really called Kenyon-Barr, that's what the City planners called it when they took all those pic--there's a really beautiful exhibit, a photography exhibit, down on Linn. Did you go to that?

MOREHART: Not yet.

DARIA: It's beautiful. Um, so--oh shoot I lost my train of thought. So, Central Parkway, so where would Canal Street have been? Was that Central Parkway?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Um-hm, that was the Canal.

DARIA: That was Canal Street. So, Liberty Street--you probably 00:57:00already know this-- so like at one time, the Catholics were not allowed within the city limits. Did you know this?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: I've heard versions of this.

DARIA: Okay, so, I did this research, because I work at the Harriet Beecher Stowe House, also. I work at People Working Cooperatively; that's where I make my very meager salary. But I give my heart and time at the Harriet Beecher Stowe House, for no salary --such a martyr, see that's the Italian in me. (laughing) But anyway, so, Harriet came here in 1832. Well I did a--Harriet Beecher Stowe--so I did a genealogy for the Neiheisel family and their first person came here in 1832. So, I started doing all of this reading and what I read and, you know, history is a little prejudiced, right. Supposedly, they weren't allowed to have--the Catholics were all outside. And the first Catholic Church inside the boundaries was on the corner of--oh my god--I can see the 00:58:00church--Central? Oh wait, is that Liberty? Liberty there's a church.

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: St. Francis Seraph.

DARIA: Is that it?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Are you thinking of St. Francis Seraph?

DARIA: Maybe, is that the one that has the cemetery in the basement?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Yes.

DARIA: (snorts)

MOREHART: Oh, wow.

DARIA: Isn't that creepy? Irish?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: Uh, there are a lot of Irish, in that cemetery(?)

DARIA: Is it cholera?

UNKNOWN INTERVIEWER: It was--I've heard the reason was--it wasn't because of prejudice against, um, Catholics. I think it started off as very small and since that was north of Liberty Street, it was more affordable.

DARIA: I'll tell you, Lyman Beecher said he didn't want to come to Cincinnati because it was a city of imbeciles and Catholics. (chuckle) The prejudice is always shocking. I went to Europe this summer and I went to Switzerland. And, this is so nothing to do with Over-the-Rhine. Should I tell you this story?

MOREHART: We can, we can--

DARIA: Stop it.

(End of Interview)

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