Interview with Dorothy Kissel, November 26, 2017

KISSEL: I'm ninety-four years old.

SPEEG: Dorothy Kissel is who I'm interviewing. Today is her birthday. Happy Birthday, Dorothy.

KISSEL: Thank you.

SPEEG: You're ninety-four, I can't believe it.

KISSEL: I was born down in, um, Over-the-Rhine, on November 26th, 1923. I can't remember the name of the street. It was--

ANNE: --was it Central?

KISSEL: huh?

ANNE: Central Street?

KISSEL: No, it wasn't.

ANNE: Logan?

KISSEL: Logan Street! I was born on Logan Street. The third floor.

SPEEG: Are you--do you have any papers with you? Okay, just put them there. And then that helps refer to what--us--what else we might know. Um, thank you. I forgot your name already.

KISSEL: Anne. (laughs)

SPEEG: Because your name's not written down. I'm sorry, you're an 00:01:00integral part of this. Do you know why you were living on Logan Street?

KISSEL: Well, when my mother and father got married, mother was seventeen, and my father was twenty-one. And they decided to get married. He would court her, and he'd come up and take her to the movie house. He would drop her off at the movie and she would go in and see the movie and he would go to a bar nearby. And when the movie was over he would pick her up and walk her home. That was the story I was told. So that was--they would go to a--she met him at a dance that was here in--they had dances at the churches I believe. And they met each other and she slipped her purse in his pocket as she was dancing--she had a little purse-- and she of course 'accidentally' forgot to take it back until 00:02:00the end of the evening. And then she went over to him and asked for her purse and he had to walk her home then.

So, anyways, that's how they got together and they got married, and they had to have a place to live and they found this place on the third floor of Logan Street that they could afford. He worked at Kahn's. At that time the canal was open. There was no street there, it was a canal. And it had a board that went over it to walk across. And his working place was on the other side of the canal. He worked for Kahn's, a butcher. And he was--he had been trained over in Europe as a butcher so that Kahn's hired him. And he tells the story of when he was working there they had a Christmas party. And Kahn's gave them 00:03:00drinks and everything, and they were celebrating. And when it was time to go home they got a turkey to take home for Christmas. That was their gift. And he says that he always was afraid of walking over that board to go to work and come back. And he said he was always nervous; he was afraid of falling in the canal. But he said somehow or another, after the party he came back over that board and he says he doesn't know anything how he got over it. It was so easy, he just walked--walked home with the turkey. And he said he forgot about the board and everything. And that's our story about the board over the canal. Which I did--I always thought of it as a parkway, you know. But I didn't think about the canal being open yet. So, and he worked for Kahn's which moved from there down to, uh, out of the area. And he worked for Kahn's the rest of his life.

SPEEG: It moved down to the uh, Spring Grove--

KISSEL: --Spring Grove Avenue, that's right. Yes, near the stockyards.

SPEEG: Closer in---------(??).

KISSEL: Yes, and he worked there the rest of his life. So Kahn's originally was in the area of the Parkway there.

SPEEG: That makes sense to me. The boards I didn't hear about. That's an important, a significant --

KISSEL: Years ago they used boards to cross over. I just can't imagine walking over a board over the canal.

SPEEG: Me too.

KISSEL: And I went to nurse--my sister went to school. There was a Catholic school that she went to. And, uh, I think, I don't know if there was another school, but anyway, she went to school. And she would walk me to the, 00:05:00a nursery school, that's was on top of the building that's there yet, on the parkway. There's a big apartment building at the corner there near Logan Street. There's a big building and they had an area on top they used as a nursery school and I would go there. My mother would go to work. She worked, she went to homes and cleaned, uh, for women who could afford her. And, uh, my sister would drop me off at the nursery school and then go to school. And then when mother and everybody--they would take me back. But I enjoyed nursery school and went there until we moved out of the area, and uh, when I went to--we moved to Charlotte Street in the West End and that was Sands School area. I went to Sands School. And because I went to nursery school I didn't have to go to, uh, 00:06:00kindergarten, I went right to the first grade. So that's how long I was in nursery school. I was there for years, and they said, well you don't need kindergarten anymore. So, I went to first grade.

SPEEG: You were advanced at a very early age.

KISSEL: Oh, and the woman that was in charge in nursery school liked me very much. She dressed me up as a bride, and, and, she, she was very kind to me. And, uh, we went to a, uh, a church near Washington Park. Is that in Over-the-Rhine area?

SPEEG: Um-hm.

KISSEL: It was a Lutheran Church right opposite the park.

SPEEG:--St. Johns. It's still there.

KISSEL: We would go there for kinder--for, uh, church service. I would go to the children's area and my sister would go in her little section, and we 00:07:00went there for years. And we would also go to the--Washington Park had a pool in the summertime. I loved their pool! I would run and jump, and we would--children would be jumping in and out and having a lot of fun. That was a--

SPEEG:--Dorothy was the name you said about your nursery school?

KISSEL: I don't have a name. It just, it was just the nursery school that I knew of, I didn't know there was any name to it.

SPEEG: It was near where you lived?

KISSEL: It was in that building on that top floor, and it also had a screened-in area above it that we were allowed to go in and, you know, play, play there if you want. You could--she had games that we would play and what-not up on the upper floor on the outside. But otherwise, it was down the floor 00:08:00below it, and she had tables and she kept us busy for the day. And, uh, I remember she was very kind. At least I thought she was. And, uh, she seemed to like me, because I had dark black hair and big dark eyes. And she always said "Oh those eyes!" And that's why she dressed me up as a bride. She said I would look pretty as a bride.

SPEEG: Was it affiliated at all with church?

KISSEL: No, not that I know of.

SPEEG:--the Lutheran that you went to--

KISSEL: I don't know that it was connected with a church or anything. I don't know how it was sponsored of anything. But I know mother took me there because she had to work. Uh, dad made money, but it was--still had she, in order to keep going with --they started with nothing and they wanted to pay for all 00:09:00the expenses, and having two children right away. My sister was born in (nineteen) seventeen, right after they were married. And I was born--there was another child in between us that died of pneumonia. And uh, then I was born six years after my sister. But we were all born down here in, in the Over-The-Rhine area.

SPEEG: Your mother was a--last name--

KISSEL: My mother was a Bartl, B-a-r-t-l. And she and her family came over from Europe when she was thirteen years old. And her older sister was already here. But the family had bought land down in Alabama, a farm, and they 00:10:00wanted to farm it. And they dropped off my mother and her sister, my aunt, her sister who was three years older than her, she was. They dropped them off here, because they felt that on the farm, there was no--the boy they had they could use to work the farm, but the girls were not necessary, and they would do better finding their way by living here in Oh--Cincinnati. So my mother was thirteen years old, and she had to find a job! So she found a house that needed her to--as an upstairs maid, and she did all odd jobs. But when she got married she was seventeen and she could not cook. My fath--her husband, my father, had to teach her to boil water and take care of things. So she learned very 00:11:00well, because when she got older she was top notch cook. So we enjoy--everyone enjoyed her cooking. So, even at thirteen she did well for herself. And her sister got married and, uh, had a family. But I--they lived in Cincinnati too, but they didn't stay in Over-the-Rhine area or anything, they moved out further.

But mom and dad lived there until they decided--dad got news that, uh, his father needed help over there in Europe, because he'd come from over near in Romania area. And so he and my mother decided to take the two girls 00:12:00over, and I was just a little over a year old. And we, the four of us, went over to Europe, to help my grandfather. And he had some land, my husb--my father had some land that his mother had left him that was near there. But uh, as things worked out they didn't stay over there. Uh, they found out it was, wasn't the best for them. So, they came back but they lived on Central Avenue then, which is not, not--just outside of Over-the-Rhine.

SPEEG: It's toward town--oh, Central Avenue, not the Parkway?

KISSEL: --yeah Central Avenue, which is down--it was near Findlay Steet in that area. And they lived in the third floor again. And uh, they struggled 00:13:00until they saved enough money and bought another, bought a house, bought another house in the West End. (laughs) So we lived in the West End until I was graduated from high (my?) school.

SPEEG: Were, your, it sounds--so Romania was the culture that your father had come from.

KISSEL:--yes, and--

SPEEG: Were your parents, on Logan Street when you were growing up, were they part of any, did they have friends who, uh, they could find who were also Romanian? Or did they seem to become friends with all of the different types of people?

KISSEL: Well, they were busy working most of the time. And uh, they would go to the a--there was a group that, oh, I forget-- Verein they called them. 00:14:00It was a group that German people would get together.

SPEEG: Verein?

KISSEL: Verein they call it. V-, oh, I don't know. It means group or association. And, uh, they had dances, and they would go to dances and meet people that way. But mostly they were busy working. So--

SPEEG: Do you remember seeing any of those dances?

KISSEL: Oh, yes. I would--I got a red dress that I wore. I would go to the dance, that was my special dress, big--and I would go to the dance. My dad would dance with me. We'd do the waltz and all that. Oh, I was a dancer. I had a dance.

SPEEG: Do you remember a building, a location, where ---------(??)

KISSEL:--there was a building off of the parkway, and I 00:15:00can't--remember, Anne that one that had that thing over the top? Weren't you the one that had--it had a, uh, it was a school or something. I think it was a school that they would have the dances in. And it was on, uh, down from the park, just off of the parkway. On Liberty, wasn't it?

ANNE: Uh, the other building that we looked at. That was some business and insurance companies, and 9t's got a wonderful statue on there --------- (??)

KISSEL: But that was the building the dance was in.

Anne: The dance was in there?

KISSEL: Yeah, we went there to go to the dance.

ANNE: What street was that?

KISSEL: I don't know if it was Liberty or Findlay. No, it isn't Findlay--

ANNE:---------- (??)-------

ANNE:--its name was German.

KISSEL:--I can't remember, I'm, sor-- my minds not--

ANNE: It had a woman's figure on top--it said, in German--

SPEEG:--the Germania Building?

ANNE: --name in German, yeah, but it was--I think it's some kind of insurance company started that. We were looking up what it meant, and--

SPEEG: Yes, there's an insurance, yes there is. And that is, uh, Walnut, between the, uh, parkway--it is right off the parkway--

ANNE: --about a block--

SPEEG: --and a woman's figure--it's built into the building, right?

KISSEL: I don't remember that part. But I know it was--I think it was a school originally. I think it was a school orig--anyways, it had a big auditorium like area that they could have dances in. And that's where we went for the dance. And I always looked forward to it.

SPEEG: You went mostly with your family?

KISSEL:--oh yes,

SPEEG: --or with others, friends?

KISSEL: No, my mother and father and my sister and I would go up 00:17:00there. They didn't have many-- time for many friends, you know what I mean? You have to have time just to be with friend. And they were busy. My mother wasn't taking care of--she took a job at the, uh, doctor's building downtown. She would scrub the floors and take care of the offices, keep them clean. And the hallways. And she had a certain section that was hers to take care of. And she would work from early afternoon until almost midnight down there. And, uh, she worked until we moved out where it was hard for her to get home. Becau--so my father had to go down and pick her up bring her home all the time.

SPEEG: Because you were moving more to the West End?

KISSEL: She, we moved out to Monfort Heights, and you couldn't get 00:18:00home. The bus stopped at midnight to get up there. So, she couldn't get to the bus stop to get up to the house. So, dad had to make sure he got her home. And that's when she decided that it wasn't worth working anymore. And she would, they would--she stopped working. But, uh, she was always working. And mother--dad was working as much as he could and taking care of us. When she was gone, he was in charge of us.

SPEEG: This is beginning on Logan Street? That you remember --

KISSEL: Logan Street is--they started on Logan Street from the time they were married on. They were always, it seemed they were always working.

SPEEG: Were there other people in that building that you lived on in the third floor that you remember?

KISSEL: No, no I was too young, I was too young then to remember much 00:19:00of anything. Uh, all I remember is going to nursery school. (laughs) And there was children there. But, uh, it wasn't like you made a lot friends or anything, you know. They were all--

ANNE: What about the Ehrhardt's?

KISSEL: Ehrhardt's were down on Charlotte Street. They were the people that lived--when dad and mom bought the house, there was--it was a two-family and the Ehrhardt's lived downstairs and we lived upstairs. And that's the ones she's talking about. And we lived together for, oh, from the time I went to--started school until I graduated. When I graduated, that's when we decided to build the house out on Montfort Heights. And the Ehrhardt's heard that we were 00:20:00moving, and they decided to move from there too. So that's when we parted company. But up to then, Mrs. Ehrhardt took care of me just like my mother and they would exchange--we spent Christmas' together. They'd come up to our house, up to our apartment, and have a Christmas, and then we'd go down and go to their apartment and have a Christmas. And we enjoyed ourselves greatly. Uh, she made turtle soup, homemade turtle soup and would send sent some up to us to taste, and we would bake cookies or something that she liked, and we would send it down to them, in exchange you know. So that it was a friendly affair. And that's the one that Anne remembers me talking about.

SPEEG: There was more baking than going to a bakery and buying cookies--

KISSEL: Oh yeah, mother always--you always baked, you didn't buy 00:21:00stuff. You didn't--she knitted stockings for me, you know, knitted things, she didn't--in between time when she just had a chance to sit, she was busy doing something, sewing something. She would make our clothes for us. And the people that she worked for would give her things, and like they gave her a fur coat that they didn't want anymore. And she made it so my sister could wear it and then when I got a little bit bigger I got to wear it. So, things, she made, uh, clothes out of my father's pants. If they were worn out, she would use the good part and make things for us. So, that was her friendship. I mean, she didn't have time to do, to go out and mix with other people. So, I come from 00:22:00a family of a lot of workers. (laughs)

SPEEG: That's one of the reasons why we, they, are creating the museum. It truly is. Um, people are asking is it going to be paintings and so on. No, it's the story of what really happened in this whole area, including my own family. With working so hard, I can't imagine it, even though I've worked hard, but, um, but the past lives of people who have worked so hard are what need to be combined into this big story.

KISSEL: And the market area--

SPEEG: --do you remember which were--you don't have to remember which one necessarily, but certainly there were more markets than just the Findlay market right here on Findlay Street. I certainly remember and you do too 00:23:00perhaps. And were you going to market with your folks, or was that something they needed to rush out and not have--

KISSEL: When we lived down on, um, Charlotte Street I can remember things about walking up --there was a shoe store up in the area, uh, up near the market area. And I would get my shoes there a lot of times. I had a--they complained because I did a lot of tap dancing and jumping rope and all kind of--and I wore out shoes so easily. And then, I would have to always come up and get shoes from the shoe store up at the Findlay market area. And there was a, I'm trying to think, oh we always came up to get our meats. There was a certain butcher that we would get our meats from. And they knew, when I was older I would come up myself and get things from them. And they knew they couldn't give me anything 00:24:00but what I--the right things, because they knew my father was a butcher and they couldn't get away with sliding anything other than what I asked for, you know, the best of everything, because he was a butcher and knew what it was. And uh, I had certain bread places and cheese places that I was told to go to. And uh, I did a lot of shopping for them when they were older and they knew I could do it. But they come up to Findlay market always. I was wondering if that's where they got their food when we lived on, on Logan Street. My sister was born up from me, so we were all in this area, so they had to get food from someplace. And in those days you didn't get a lot of canned foods.

SPEEG: I think we would presume that it was so close to the market that they would go there. And the other markets that have disappeared as well, the other street markets, um, which off the top of my head I'm forgetting which ones, Sixth Street had a market and so on. But Findlay was the biggest. And it was open routinely at night during that time period, I think, that you're mentioning. Do you remember going at night, or was it day?

KISSEL: I went in day. We went in daytime, I'm almost sure. Uh, because, uh, I can't remember. There was another store we used to go to, and I can't remember which. Was it a clothing store? Something like that. There was something we had to have always, and we went to Findlay Market to pick up. But uh, I 00:26:00remember going up for meat, and bread, and cheese, and stuff like that. And fruits and vegetables. And the funny part about it, is when I got married, my husband's uncle used to get things, and he told me that they went to Findlay Market and they had a stand, that they would sell stuff from it--we grew, some of the things we grew. And they also each, after when we were married, he would come up, and I remember them getting the, um, mint that grew there, and selling it, for special day when the races were on, they had the mint juleps, and he'd have the mint for that mint julep. And they grew it right there where we lived on Crawford. And he would get, uh, young dandelion, they used 00:27:00dandelions to, uh, for salads, and the bloom of it, they would use it to make wine or something. And that's all from back from where we live now. So, but that's years ago; they don't do that anymore. But he would--they had a market on Findlay Market.

SPEEG: Certainly Chester Park was right next door to Spring Grove, um, even if, with your wonderful advanced age it still is not in the memory of people who are living I understand, but you know--

KISSEL:--I went to Chester Park one time. (laughs) It was a far distance from the Northsi --from the uh, West End on Charlotte Street. It was quite a ride to go up to the park up there.

SPEEG: Did you go by streetcar maybe?

KISSEL: Yeah, we had to go by streetcar, . There was--that was what 00:28:00they had at that time--

SPEEG: --and they did run--

KISSEL: --oh yeah, you got off down there at uh, oh, uh, near Winton Place. And it was right there. And the other thing we went, when we went, was--there's a cemetery in, um, St. Bernard, we would go by streetcar to there.

SPEEG: That tells me that you may have gone to a non-Catholic church because that cemetery seems to be Protestant--

KISSEL:--it's a Catholic church, yeah. It's a Catholic--

SPEEG: There's St. Mary's--

KISSEL: I think it's a Catholic cemetery, I'm not sure.

SPEEG: There's one on Vine that is connected with St. Bernard community, and it is predominantly Catholic, yes.

KISSEL: And so, they, my sister is buried there. The one that was 00:29:00born between my older sister and I. She's buried there. That's how I know, went--that's what we went to visit, my mother and I.

SPEEG: Your family was practicing Catholic in church?

KISSEL: Originally we were, uh, Catholic, I was baptized, and everything. But after a while we strayed away from it. We didn't go to--we went up to the church, the Lutheran church, my sister and I. We went there. And then we just sort of strayed away from church. (laughs) So --

SPEEG: I forgot before about people of the Catholic church, uh, sometimes went to Lutheran, in particular Lutheran churches. There seems to be uh, an association--

KISSEL: I don't know, it just uh--

ANNE: You said there was something with school. They weren't happy 00:30:00with something, my aunt's--her sister, was going to Catholic school--

KISSEL: --it was Catholic School, and there was something went on there and that's why--

ANNE:--that they weren't happy with--I think about expecting a certain amount of money or--or, I think, you know, given them tuition.

KISSEL: What happened is that, that my sister was getting good grades, bringing good grades home and everything, but when it came to the report card, she was--got low grades. And this other person that was-- that my mother knew of--he was getting bad grades. But when it came to report card, he was getting all A's and super grades. And my mother went in to talk to the teacher. And she said, the teacher said, "Well yes that's true", that they -- but she has nothing to do with the final grade. That's up to the minister. So, she went to the preacher, uh, the priest, and he said that his family gives so much money, and 00:31:00that more, so, so that he thought that the boy should get the better grade because of that. And my mother said "Well we work hard and we give what we can. We don't", we--his--she happened to know that his father was a gambler and that he made his money that way. And so she said, "I can't give you the money that he does. So, if that's the case I don't want to come to this school anymore." So that's why they left the church. So, they didn't think that was right.

ANNE: Makes sense to me.

KISSEL: So, but that was happened to be that particular priest, so--

SPEEG:--right, probably the individual situation led to a difficult thing. And then you eventually-- everyone kept moving further away, from, um, 00:32:00down here, Over-the-Rhine.

KISSEL: Well, we, we, liked it down in the West End and all. I mean, we were happy there. Until it started to change. And uh, it just seemed like things--they wanted to have a house. They worked all their life to have a house. And my aunt and uncle had the, uh, the restaurant out on North Bend Road. And mother would go out and help them work. And while they were out there, they found out there was a lot available out in, on Loomis Drive and they could afford to buy it. So, they had bought that lot for a while. And then when my sister got older, she was, uh, working and she could help a few 00:33:00pennies, you know, with them. And they got enough money together, they thought they could start building a house on it and have a place for themselves. And they had a little yard where she could garden, and uh, he was happy there too. And uh, so they built the house. And that's when they moved out there. Because they had worked all their lives to have someplace like that. And they finally got it. And I said the first Christmas, we moved in in July, and the first Christmas, he was, he and mom were sitting on the step and over-looking--in front of it was a field with cows in it, and the Mt. Airy water tower there was in it, and a big moon, and they were sitting there, and my dad had his arm around my mom, and they were sitting there, and my dad had his arm around my mom and my sister and I came out from the bedroom, and we looked and we 00:34:00saw mom and dad sitting there and we got tears coming down, because that's what they'd worked all their lives for and they finally could sit down and enjoy it. And it's still, it's a picture that sticks in my mind. And I think of them always as dad with his arm around my mom. And, uh, it makes me feel good to think of that.

SPEEG: Do you have a photograph of your parents?

KISSEL: I don't have it with me, but I have pictures, I have pictures of the home, and I'm not sure if I have a picture of them sitting there with their arms around each other at that time, so. But I'll see what I can find, and uh, I have a picture of, uh, when we went over to Europe when I was one year old, just a year old or so. I was two on our way back. And that's when I had to 00:35:00have a vaccination to get into this, uh, United States. And they gave me vaccination, and my arm swollen. And mother said she was so sorry that I had to suffer that way. But, uh, I have a picture of that, of the four of us. So, I'm hoping I can find it. I tell you, I put stuff away, and I forget where I put it. So, I'm looking for it to find the picture of our--passport picture.

SPEEG: I think that would be a particularly wonderful offering, to get a photocopy of it. They can do that, scan it, with a scanner, it just makes a copy and we give the original back to you or whoever brings it in. But I think in particular that passport photo at the time when your parents lived on Logan when they came back--it's really a great visual for the story. Though 00:36:00what you're describing just in words, is a picture, it is indeed, very much so.

KISSEL: If I can find some other pictures of, uh, of that area. I'll will be glad to get it for you.

SPEEG: That would be most appreciated. And everything doesn't have to be done today. There are contacts, and that's why we have your name too, so that we can also, um, be in touch with us about any photos or other certificates, um membership in anything or not, that you might have. You don't have to sign anything, you already did. Um, I think we might leave the story here. 00:37:00But do you have some--I asked you if you had any papers regarding what we're talking about, which you didn't happen to have, which is fine. What would you, I think the visual you just created about your parents and they worked so hard is really significant and important about creating the bigger story for everyone to know how hard people worked. I think that's one of the things you've made clear, Dorothy.

KISSEL: Well, they didn't get any welfare or anything like that. Whatever they had, they had to work for. The government didn't hand things out in those days.

SPEEG: Not even social security.

KISSEL: No, there was nothing. They had to work to pay the doctor, they had to work to get their food, and to pay their rent. They worked for everything.

SPEEG: Well, that's what needs to be recognized with the stories. And I want to thank you today, for sharing all of this, especially on your birthday.

KISSEL: Well, ninety-four years of it! (laughs) It's just another day.

SPEEG: Well, I appreciate it; I really do. Well, thank you.

KISSEL: Thank you.

(End of Interview)

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