Interview with Cheryl Taylor, July 10, 2023

KOMARA: This is an interview with Cheryl Taylor on July 10th, 2023 at her home in Lexington, Kentucky. This interview is for the Kentucky Climate Change Oral History project. I, Zada Komara, the interviewer, I’m a faculty member at the University of Kentucky. So, Cheryl, how are you today?

TAYLOR: I’m doing fine.

KOMARA: You’re doing fine?

TAYLOR: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]

KOMARA: I mean, it’s a beautiful day and–

TAYLOR: Yeah.

KOMARA: –you live on a beautiful lake, so. (laughs)

TAYLOR: Yeah, it was a horse farm. I guess that there’s a bit of guilt with that but, you know, Ken–Fayette County is developed inside that urban planning zone and they’re gonna take every piece they can get before they try to destroy their land around it, so.

KOMARA: Well, it’s pretty and I’ll say this is the prettiest spot I’ve probably ever done an oral history interview in.

TAYLOR: Oh, really? Well, good.

KOMARA: So, yeah.

TAYLOR: I’m glad you feel comfortable here.

KOMARA: So, I always like to start with some biography. So, just tell me a little bit about yourself.

TAYLOR: Well, I was born actually in Laurel County because there was no facility in Clay. But as a child, I lived in Manchester, Kentucky and Clay County, Eastern Kentucky. 00:01:00My dad worked for the local coal company. He was a World War II veteran and went to college on the GI Bill. So, he was an accountant for the mine where–actually, most of my male ancestors were coal miners of some–or farmers. There were some farmers, but, but anyway. My mom was from that area, and he was from–born in Pineville and lived in Harlan. So, they both grew up in coal communities and, you know, that kind of thing. And–but the coal company started to decline. I was born in 1956, so they started declining in the sixties. And work was scarce, so my dad took the big step of getting a job, and we moved from Manchester to Louisville, which was quite a culture shock. I struggled when I got to the Jefferson County School system because I just was not even closely, you know, ready to, to make that academic step. 00:02:00We were so much–they were so behind. But eventually I–we lived there until I was in high school. My dad got another job, and we moved to Knoxville, Tennessee. So, I actually graduated from high school in Knoxville. I started college a year early, University of Tennessee, and then quickly transferred back to UK, because I like blue better than orange, so. But I went to UK. My first degree was in social work, and I worked in mental hospitals, different sorts of things and as a–I was twenty, twenty-one years old, and I didn’t feel like I could make much of a difference. I, I was a little overwhelmed with what the–you know, the serious mental illnesses (laughs) and I decided I wanted to do something in school where I could actually predict it. Where humans are somewhat unpredictable, science is a little bit more easy. Yeah. So, I went back to school and I got a mechanical engineering degree. So, with the two degrees, 00:03:00I started working right out of college for Procter & Gamble, and I worked for them for almost twenty-four years in manufacturing. Most of the work early on was engineering, operations, maintenance. I did a lot of technical work, but about halfway through my career they needed somebody to pick up the Environmental Permitting programs. (cheerful instrumental music) I have no idea what that is. The Environmental Permitting programs, safety programs, that kind of thing. And then all the permits–the, the whole–every time we put in a new piece of equipment you had to permit it and that sort of thing. So, I picked it up and learned it and found I just really enjoyed it. It’s kind of a nice combo of the social work and the engineering, because I worked with a lot of people and their behaviors. You know, we set up the very first recycling systems. We worked on content of materials that we brought in, we planted trees, we celebrated Earth Day. Things that had never been done there before. But Procter & Gamble is a very accommodating 00:04:00company. And they promoted women, which was also kind of unusual back in the seventies and early eighties. So, I was allowed to really gain a lot of skill. They sent me to many–I went to classes. I’m certified in a lot of different areas: storm water, hazardous waste, and air quality. I mean, they really train you well there. I had to pass a lot of tests and certifications. So, I was well prepared, but then after working there for so many years, I had the opportunity to go to work in government. And I took an enormous pay cut, but I went to work for Lloyd Cress, who was the commissioner–state commissioner for the environment and for Kentucky, as a special projects manager, technical advisor kind of role, and loved it. I loved working in the public realm. We did all kinds of educational things promoting–you know, trying 00:05:00to get the public to understand the impact that they had. Trying to make sure regulations were easy to understand for people and fair, trying to help business comply. I got several grants. We started some arts kinds of things, related to the arts and environment. And we started a program called Kentucky EXCEL, which was a voluntary leadership program you could join for, for people that wanted to promote environmentally conscientious work and behavior, and did a lot of things. And then Lloyd (sighs) was promoted and the next thing I knew I was the commissioner. So, I got promoted into his spot and I was the first female–I think it’s still the only female commissioner for state of Kentucky for the environment. So, there’ve been a couple of female secretaries. Actually, three that I know of. But I was the only commissioner, which is kind of, “you run the operations.” And so, from a state level I had the opportunity to 00:06:00write regulations, explain to the community, represent Kentucky on a national level. EPA Region 4 met regularly, so I met the leaders of other states in the south. You know, it was, it was eye-opening, I mean, how much, how much opportunity there is to improve, and especially if we work together. And I really enjoyed it, but what I did discover is politics is fickle, and so as different leadership changes your job is no longer stable. And so, I–at that time my personal politics–I’m a very liberal Democrat. You know, I just–that’s how I–it is. My mom was a Liberal, my dad was more of a Republican, but not too–not like Republicans today. Eisenhower era, I like to call him, you know? But I, I worked for a Republican governor. He, he didn’t care. He thought I did good work and he didn’t care about my party. So, I 00:07:00worked for Ernie Fletcher, who was a, a nice guy and who actually helped support a lot of environmental initiatives. But then when he lost the election, I was hired by Jim Newberry to be the first environmental commissioner for the city of Lexington. Which sounds–it’s, it’s, it’s–that was one of the finest jobs I’ve ever had, because you’re impacting things at a local level and you can see the result. So, I took over right as Lexington went under an EPA consent decree, because–I don’t know if you know this, but back in–gosh! I don’t remember the year? It was 2000–early 2000s. Two young women drowned right across from the football stadium because the storm water here was so–it was unmanaged. There–development happened but there was no plan. And we went under a federal consent decree to clean up our act with storm water and get–there were no maps, even, you know? Where storm water went is just where it went. 00:08:00Nobody knew. So, I, I came into that job to help get us back into compliance and federal law, and then we also worked on our sewer systems. That was my personal favorites. Weird. Garbage, we did all kinds of–we put in the first energy and air programs in Fayette County. Recycling, we, we, (sighs) we bought twenty-seven brand new garbage trucks and initiated a recycling. I bought–the big machine that they used at the recycling center was bought when I came in the office. And, and it was a wonderful job. I enjoyed it. But again, fickle fate. You know, when the, when the mayor didn’t get reelected, I stayed for a little while working for Jim Gray. He was not nearly as supportive of environmental initiatives. Just not. Lots of things I could say, but I won’t. And so, I left there and then I, I did several things after that. I went to work for 00:09:00University of Kentucky. I had managed hospital maintenance planning for UK. I learned a lot about hospital environment and waste streams and things. I also went to work for an–a private engineering company based in Cincinnati, and did environmental consulting for them. Didn’t like that kind of work as much. I left–I went to Kentucky American Water company. I’ve just done a lot of different things and I guess finally I wound up at Wild Turkey Distillery. So, I did the environmental and safety management for them. So, in each one of those circumstances, I’ve had the opportunity to impact the results of the place I worked by making sure they were complying with the law, they were ahead of the game, they were recycling, they were minimizing waste. You know, they were reporting accurately, representing to the public that, you know, we were a conscientious place or business. 00:10:00So, I’ve had a lot of fun jobs, a lot of things, and then finally I retired. But my unfortunate timing was I retired literally two weeks before the world shut down for COVID, and after a couple of months of pure boredom, I went back to the state. They, they needed help and so they hired me into the enforcement division. So, I was an environmental law enforcer for the state for about two years. We mostly worked remotely, but because I’d worked at the state I could ramp up fast and I was able to start working productively in a matter of about six weeks. They said most of the beginners coming in take a year to two years. So, I was able to help them fill a gap, and I learned a lot about the enforcement side while I was doing it. So, I’ve had a little bit of everything. I know that’s long-winded, but that’s kind of my environmental connections, I guess, all the way through. Lots of different types of work.

KOMARA: Yeah, this is awesome. 00:11:00Jim Newberry, obviously, is the one who gave me your name. And he said–

TAYLOR: –He was a magnificent person to work for–

KOMARA: “–She has done all the things.” And I am very impressed by this list. I will admit, I don’t a thousand percent know what some of this stuff entails, so maybe I’ll ask you.

TAYLOR: Well, that’s not your area. So, yeah.

KOMARA: Yeah. So, like, tell us a little bit about, like, what does environmental enforcement look like as a job?

TAYLOR: Well, environmental–the, the way that this state is set up, and it varies from state to state, but this state has the division of air, waste and water. And of course, you have labs and other things that work at state government level. And air, waste, and water in Kentucky are authorized by the federal government to act as a federal agent. So, I don’t know if you follow that, but, but the feds–ultimately, the federal law is king, but they allocate the actual program management and operation to states if the state demonstrates it has the capacity 00:12:00to do that correctly and well. So, those three groups in Kentucky have field offices. There’s–well, it’s thirteen–they’re kind of consolidating right now but I think they’re still thirteen. But offices at different locations. London, for example. London, Kentucky has a field office. And for most–in most cases, there’s an air, waste, and water office, and those offices house inspectors. So, the inspectors are all trained. Kind of managed centrally, but they’re all trained and they’re all on the job and they do the real hands-on work for state. You know, monitoring what’s going on and making sure things are done correctly. And if they find a place where there’s an outage or something being violated, they attempt to get that corrected at that point. But there’s a lot of people and companies that are just–either they, they don’t understand, which is kind of one end of the spectrum, or they do understand and they deliberately violate and do not care. 00:13:00Coal companies are its own thing. It’s, it’s a very difficult group. But once they recognize they’ve got an issue and they can’t control it through their own means locally, then they report that back to the division of enforcement. And that’s when we take over. And partly because of my age and attitude, nothing intimidates me. So, I, I mean, I’ve tackled some big cases. They gave me a lot of really messy cases because I’ve got the background of pol–you know, excuse my language, bullshit. I mean, they’ll give you smoke, they’ll give you–there’s excuses, but a lot of it is just somebody’s cutting money. Somebody’s trying to promote themselves. There’s some greed involved. They’re too lazy. They don’t believe–whatever reason, they’re not gonna comply unless you force them. So, there’s a process that you go through. Once the inspector reports that, that there’s this violation that can’t get corrected, then enforcement takes that and makes a case, and then you get a case manager assigned. So, I was working 00:14:00kind of at the basic level, but I’ve done so many things. They gave me all the weird–we have weird cases in Kentucky. There’s coal, there’s–well, there’s munitions, there’s, you know, all kinds of things. And so, once you get the case, you do the background research, you compare it with the regulations and make sure that it’s valid. And then you start to gather your data and then you contact the party and say, “You’re in trouble. We’re gonna–we need to talk with you about what you’re gonna do to come back into compliance or–.” Then there will be–mostly it’s monetary fines. Now, you can get something that goes beyond that, but monetary fines are the biggest. The biggest fine I remember–not during my tenure, but while Lloyd was still–was Rockwell was fined almost ten million dollars. And of course there’s still a lot of stuff going on in western Kentucky with Paducah, gaseous diffusion, and weapons. You know, there’s a lot of big cases here, but there have been some 00:15:00pretty hefty fines levied. But, but some of the cases were as simple as, you have empathy, but it’s some farmer that lives in Clay County or wherever and they just like to burn their trash. You know, they burn it and burn it and burn it and burn it. And you can’t just burn it. You know, it, it, it leaves a sediment in the air, a particulate. It, it’s–or, or hoarders that live on a property and they’ve collected every junk car, trailer, whatever, you know? I mean, so sometimes I was dealing with a person who literally did not even understand that there was a law. All the way up to great big corporations and great big landfills and places that know better and should know better and violate anyway. But you hold them accountable by first giving them a chance to explain their side, then you come back. And there’s algorithms that you can use to come up with fines but, you know, there’s a lot of–well, the city of Lexington, comically, (laughs) 00:16:00violated their–yeah, that was one of my cases. I’m like, “Look, guys, I know exactly what that’s supposed to do, so don’t even give me a story.” Lexington, to their credit though, was very cooperative. I mean, places that have well-trained people running those programs try very hard to comply, and when they go out of compliance it, it causes them grief. You know, Toyota had a issue and they were just embarrassed, you know? So, some companies are quite easy to work with, while others are very difficult. They dump stuff at night and, you know. Bourbon industry, I found to be quite interesting when I worked in it, because it’s all over the map. So, they have, they have–you know, they have bourbon spills. They’re always by a waterway, and they spill and some of them act like, you know, “Well, that’s the way we’ve done it for two hundred years.” And I’m like, “Well, yeah, they were riding horses and all kinds of things two hundred years ago. You don’t dump that in the creek. No.” 00:17:00So, you have to hold people accountable. And it helps if you’ve been in my shoes, because I know what’s okay and what’s not okay. I’ve been on both sides of the fence. So, I–what I’ve found in Kentucky, there’s a lot of people that care a lot about the environment here, but sometimes they don’t grasp what they’re doing and their behavior and how that might necessarily be a negative. Cattle farmers are bad. Dairy farmers–central Kentucky, around Columbia, Bowling Green and around that area, some of the worst cases, “Well, I’m a farmer. We’ve done it this way for X number of years.” But you have–you know, cattle generate all kinds of issues. Confined animal feeding operations, they’re bad. And, you know, they, they really pollute the water, they pollute the air, and they’re hard to hold accountable. Because agricultural communities kind of got its own thing. It’s, it’s complicated. You know, agriculture’s big for Kentucky. 00:18:00There’s coal mines. I mentioned them. One of the problems with coal mines is a lot of them were dug and left and the company picked up and moved. And it’s, you know, some company in Missouri or Washington or wherever that owns it, and it’s hard to hold them accountable, you know, today. But I, I had one case where, you know, they kept going through bankruptcy and different mines would take over ownership of the permit and this and that. And you’d get a situation where the owner was a thousand miles away. Somebody’s supposed to be sampling these forty-seven, or a hundred and thirteen, or five hundred and fifty points on a monthly basis, and they just stop, and the stuff is running off. And we had to get, you know, federal help with some of those. Those mine–mines have left a terrible legacy in a lot of ways. I mean, at first it was a boon. It was a place people came over and got work and got started. But now 00:19:00what’s left is difficult. I mean, there’s nobody to manage it. And as hard as the regulators try–we’ve got some excellent people that work for the state. People that care. And as hard as they try, they don’t have enough resource. They just, they don’t have the money, they don’t have the authority. It’s hard for them to hold them accountable, but they try. I mean, they, they try. So, you might find it interesting to talk to some of the people in environmental enforcement. Their job is, is very interesting. It was kind of a nice way for me to wrap up my–I guess, my work life, because it gave me hope people are–they’re trying to hold people accountable, and it’s not always easy.

KOMARA: Yeah. I mean, that’s really worthwhile work. That’s really–

TAYLOR: –Oh, it is. It makes a difference.

KOMARA: Yeah. And I’m curious about–forgive me if I say the title wrong. When you were the state environmental commissioner, I’m curious, like, what, what did you do 00:20:00in that role? What kind of projects would you take on and what was the legacy of that?

TAYLOR: Well, I did a lot of different things. Part of it was, I mean, it’s a political appointment, for one thing, so, you know, you were always kind of at the beck and call of state senators and representatives for issues going on in their area. But–so you had some things that would get distracting. You know, “Well, senator so-and-so has this going on and they want you to pay attention.” So, there is a little bit of that. But in general, what you tried to do was develop policy, which is a nice general term to say, “How are we gonna act in this case?” So, for example, I mentioned confined animal feeding operations. Sometimes things happen like that that didn’t exist a hundred years ago. You know, people had a chicken house or, you know, a lot with cattle in it, but as those things have grown and gotten more and more commercialized, 00:21:00and they’re agriculture, which is difficult to control anyway, how, as the state, are we gonna approach that issue? What are we going to do to make sure that people can make a living, but yet they’re held accountable for what comes off their property and how that’s done? So, you’re constantly developing regulations, policies. We would hold meeting–a lot of public meetings. I would represent the state and we would get the public input on, you know, “What should we do? How should we develop regulations for this?” We did a lot of work with our neighbors, specifically EPA Region 4, which is the Southeast United States, because we share a lot of major waterways. And so, you know, there’s a group called, ORSANCO, [[Ohio River Valley Water Sanitation Commission]] Ohio River (scoffs) you know, gosh! I can’t even remember all the acronym for it. But it’s all the states that border the Ohio River and how we’re gonna manage that. And then, you know, we all share that water where you pull in your drinking water, what if I’m dumping something ahead? 00:22:00So, how are we gonna set up parameters that we all behave within? The Mississippi River, the whole thing with the nutrients going into the Gulf, I mean, a lot of that’s coming from us. The acid, acid rain issues–we met with a lot of states in New England about acid rain. Trying to control air pollution in Kentucky, how are we set a standard that, you know, protects other people. So, it was more of a regional and sometimes even national based view. And as the representative of the state, I would sit in on those meetings and represent our point of view. And then sometimes they would come back and say, “Here’s what we think we want to agree to. We need to develop some regs. We need to line up with Ohio, or–.” There, there would be a lot of battles along the river, I mean, because of what everybody’s spewing in from their factories and what people are drawing in to drink. Or–you know, or how boat traffic handles, or–. So, state government is–it’s kind of longer term 00:23:00thinking, broader, regional. You know, how–and then there was even some representation in Washington. We also did a lot of work in my office to get money and grants. I mean–so, I wrote a couple of grants and was able to get funding for programs, particularly for resources. We also represented the state at–the federal, the federal division of environmental enforcement would inspect all of our offices, all of our programs, to make sure we met federal compliance. Like, in order for us to have the authority to operate as a state without federal coming in and telling us everything, we had to prove to them or demonstrate to them that we had the capacity and that we were doing it properly. So, I went through a lot of audits with federal agencies to make sure Kentucky complied. Just–it was a, a lot of different things. It was–I mean, I, I–sometimes I think back I’m like, “Well, 00:24:00if I’d have just stayed with Procter & Gamble–.” Because they did sell, sell the local business. I was working out of Cincinnati a lot, and they offered to relocate. Well, I had all these kids, and, you know, I kind of–I thought, “Well, I’ll take a dive into this public service,” and just kind of got addicted. It’s, it’s very rewarding work. You, you know, you feel like you’re setting a standard for the future. We did environmental education programs. We funded–we worked with a lot of different groups, both at the state and the Lexington level. Bluegrass Greensource is a really good group here. Amy Sohner is–I’ve known her for thirty years. And they work really hard to make the next generation of kids a lot smarter and better than we are, and they still haunt me. (laughs) Like, I mean, my car, I drive it till the wheel falls out. But I started looking for a car and my daughter says, “Mom, surely you’re looking for at least a hybrid.” I’m like, “I’m looking. Looking, looking.” You know, they’ll hold you accountable. 00:25:00“What do you mean this is in the [inaudible 00:25:01]?” I mean, we still have–I set up little things where–everywhere my kids went to school, we set up recycling programs, and I, I would always come in and, and do things and talk about the environment. And, you know, so I’ve, I’ve done a lot of personal things because I care about it. And then from a career standpoint, I’ve had the opportunity to develop and influence programs and, and try. Like, I get–sometimes you get a little down about how things are. I, I went back to school in my fifties and got a master’s in public health at UK, because I care about the impacts of it on humans and human life. And I also care how the humans impact the environment, so it’s a great fit for my skill set. And you can get a little bit down about it because there’s so much–you know, it’s the hottest summer on record and there’s tornadoes and floods that are high–you know, worst ever in history. And all these things and you think, “Is it too late?” And then, you know, 00:26:00I had somebody from Procter & Gamble days, and I literally left there–what, 2002? It’s been that long. Somebody the other day sent me pictures of, “Look at those little trees you gave me.” And there’s, like, beautiful tall, big green trees. Or I go downtown now and–twelve, thirteen years ago, I invested in the first recycling cans for downtown Lexington. And I took a beating in the council meeting because they’re like, “Oh my god! These cans cost a thousand dollars.” I’m like, “They’re stainless steel. We have a ten-year warranty. It’s–you know, we want them to look good.” We had them cut Live Green Lexington and all that–that was from my day. And I went downtown the other day and, “By god, there’s my cans!” They’re still there. They’re still picking up recycle. And I thought, “Okay, you know–” (sighs) You, you get to this point in your life and you think, “I wish I could have done more.” My, my senior project in engineering was a solar heated pig farrowing house, because farmers spend a ton of energy keeping 00:27:00the pigs–the little baby pigs warm. And I built a seven-foot model and put water thermal mass in there and showed on a January day that was seventeen degrees you could heat the piggies up most of the day. At night you’d have to kick in your system. But that was my project, because I thought solar was gonna be the next big thing. And, you know (sighs) it, it’s, it’s now starting to be, but I didn’t grasp as a young person how impactful money is. You know, money makes things stay the way they are because people like the way it is, because that’s how they make their profit. And it has continually ground on my nerves to watch that unfold. How can people not want to make it better for their kids, or their grandkids, or their nieces and nephews, or whoever follows them? Their neighbor, you know? And it, it galls me to watch that happen, but you have to take a breath and look around 00:28:00and think, “Okay, lots of people are doing good things.” All of a sudden now it’s hybrids. And, and, you know, the fully plugin electric cars, we talked about that back when I worked for Jim Newberry about the green corridors in Kentucky. So, we met, you know, as Kentucky representatives to figure out how we could–and that was thirteen years ago, but then nobody made those cars, really. Finally, they’re making the car. So, I’ve lived long enough to see some of the ideas that I thought were no-brainers finally start to push their way forward. And I think the reason is–as much as anything–is young people are not so fooled. You know, we, we were like idealists. I, I felt like if you just show people this is a good idea, they’re gonna do it. And I found out there’s a lot of unscrupulous people and people that care a lot more about themselves and their money than they do anything else. And so, I’ve had to kind of get over that and start to realize, you know, I, I have raised six 00:29:00environmentally conscientious Liberal Democrats, and that’s probably the best legacy I could leave. But every one of them recycles, cares, conserves. They turn off the lights. They don’t–you know, and the, they all have basic behaviors that I think everybody should have, you know? And I know I’m not always right. That’s my view of the world. But it just feels like maybe we’re on the cusp of, of young people finally booting out the oldies. I–unfortunately, I’m the tail-end of the boomers and, you know, every time I hear, “girl boomer”, you know, I’m like–(sighs) Because I was there when we did Title IX, and, you know, all kinds of cool things happened when I was young but, but, you know, they didn’t sustain. So–anyway, I, I feel better now than I have in a while, because I’m seeing young people be a lot smarter about how they position these things. Kentucky is–you know, we have a terrible reputation. 00:30:00I think during my time in public service, the thing I tried to work really hard on is making people understand Kentucky is just as diverse as everywhere else. And we have a lot of people here, and you better hope we stay, because we’re the ones–the thin line holding it from (laughs) you know, going the other way. So, we’re trying and, and, you know, we can–Lexington, for example, now they’re in their fourteenth or fifteenth year of their consent decree compliance plan. And we have one of the best stormwater management systems in the country in Lexington. It took fourteen years. The, the guy that runs it here in Lexington is phenomenal. He, he’s a very experienced engineer and he cares, and this is his legacy. So, you have some people out there that are working really hard to make it better, and that makes me happy. So, I, I don’t know if all of that rambling is, is of any value. I, I–you know, I have a lot of hope for Kentucky. 00:31:00It’s a beautiful state. We’re blessed with all of the rain, even though I get grumpy about it sometimes. But the fact that we have the water we have, the resources we have–coal is no longer in the picture. It’s, it’s really a very minor resource and hopefully we can help those people that are still struggling from the aftermath of those mines and what it’s doing to their communities and their water. You know, that’s got to be addressed. But, you know, I feel like we’ve got some leaders now that, as long as they can stay in control–I think Governor Beshear is, is pretty good. Steve Beshear was a pretty good environmental governor. I think Andy tries as much as he can. You know, but Kentucky is–I, I don’t know. I, I, I feel like we offer a lot, but right now we’re not recognized for that very well. You know, we’re still recognized as, as a taker and a, and a polluter 00:32:00, and as, as long as we’re gonna hang on to coal. But it’s slowly, slowly dropping off. I mean, we know that. And you can heat a pig house in January in Kentucky–we did some wind things too. Some wind experiments and, you know, it was fun. I took a trip–two years ago we drove all the way out Westmont, Utah, Colorado, South Dakota. We went–it was wonderful. We’re driving across Iowa and I’m like, “Iowa–.” You know, flat, corn, corn, corn, corn, and all these windmills, windmills, windmills. And I started looking it up, Iowa was like the, the state with the highest percentage of wind generated power in the country. And I’m like, “Well, how cool is that? I had no idea,” you know? And so, you have–we kept–Colorado had a lot of wind farms and it, it’s–people are, “Well, you can’t do that in Kentucky. You can’t have solar in Kentucky.” Well, I knew you could have solar. I’ve done it myself. But you hear that rhetoric because they want to cover up that we want to keep coal. But it’s, it’s–we’re 00:33:00running out. There’s no more coal. I mean, that’s been obvious for fifty years. We’re running out, and it’s dirty, and we need a change. So, here I am, the granddaughter of two coal miners, and I could see this fifty years ago. And, you know, I think it’s time for a change and, and I’m hoping Kentucky will not shoot itself in the foot again. (laughs) I just hope not. I’m here and I’m trying. And you have pockets–Louisville, Lexington, sometimes Northern Kentucky, sometimes a little bit Bowling Green–pockets where you get people that go, you know, “We’re gonna change this.” But it’s a struggle. Every time there’s an election, I, I’m disappointed. You know, I’m trying. I, I still campaign. I still do things, but–I don’t know. Like I said, I, I tend to ramble around a lot. I, I have a mix of hope and depression sometimes about this. (Komara laughs) And I’m a native and I want it to be better. And I tried, and I think I could have done better. I see some 00:34:00legacies I’ve left in jobs that I’ve had. You know, even going back to industry. Like, going into the bourbon industry, I tell you that’s a good old boy system. And, you know, telling them that they have to do what? I said, “We have to account for all of the barrels and how much, you know, angels share they’re giving off.” But, you know, the way that bourbon–it expands and contracts, expands and contracts over a period of years, and it shrinks, and the volatiles that come off are measurable. And they’re like, “Well that’s not right. We’ve done it this way for two hundred years.” Like, I know, but we’ve got to–now it’s time for us to be accountable. So, industries like that, Kentucky industries–and they’re, they’re getting better. I mean, a, a lot of the newer ones, especially the ones that are being done by young people, are complying and, and setting up a standard that is much higher than, than some of the historical brands have done. So, I think that’s causing some change. Another thing 00:35:00is that a lot of the bourbon industries are being bought up by foreign companies, and their standards are better than the United States, like, in a lot of cases. Canada, for example–Wild Turkey has a lot of Canadian–it’s Italian owned now, and they’re not so great. (laughs) But the Canadians are, and so the Canadians have much higher standards and they’re supporting improvements in change, for example, for Wild Turkey. A lot of the other bigger ones–I used to meet there. We had a council too and talked about–safety was a big one too, with workers there, besides the environment. But I don’t know if there’s anything else that’s of interest.

KOMARA: Oh, yeah. I have so many questions I could ask you.

TAYLOR: Okay.

KOMARA: You–I, I had noticed that you had a master’s degree in public health when I looked you up. And I like the way that you said that was attractive to you because you wanted to balance, like, human concerns and environmental concerns, which, to me, my reading of it is you are like, you know, social justice and environmental justice 00:36:00are always entangled.

TAYLOR: Yeah.

KOMARA: So, I, I guess I would love to hear more of your thoughts about that. Like, the intersection of social and environmental justice in Kentucky. Like, what are we doing? What are we not doing? What’s–like, should be on the horizon, you know? You’ve been able to see a lot of trends and I think you are in a good place to sort of predict them also.

TAYLOR: Oh, I don’t know. I might be a bit out of it at this point. But–Kentucky, I think coal is the prime example there, but there’s more. I mean, Louisville has Rubbertown. I don’t know if you’ve heard, some of the pockets in Kentucky where we have heavy concentration of industries that are highly polluting: aluminum processing, chemical processing. And those tend to be focused in areas where people have the least resource to either recognize that it’s coming in on them or, or block it or fight it. And coal was probably the first example where–you know, 00:37:00people needed jobs and coal provided them an income and those jobs. He’s going fishing. (laughs) The income and jobs, and so nobody wanted to bite the hand that’s feeding them. So, coal companies were allowed to come in and put (sighs) you know, systems in place that were less than pristine. I mean, back in the day–I’ve got–I got it out. I don’t know if you want to see before you leave. But my grandfather, my dad’s dad, was a coal miner, but he was also a, a deputy sheriff in Harlan County. He was killed by moonshiners in his thirties. He was–they were raiding a still and he got killed. But he worked in the mine, you know, too, and they drove carts with mules back into the mines. And he built–he’s got a mule whip that he made himself, so I have his mule whip. Which is a weird thing to have, but it was his coal mining–he used it in the mine. And at that point 00:38:00, coal mining was not like it is today. It was kind of small. It was mostly family owned. You know, people got the, the materials out, they used it, and it was kind of a miracle for them to have heat. You know, it was so much BTU and it kept people warm. But it evolved quickly into invasion–an invasive thing for people’s air and water. Of course, safety was huge. I mean, coal mining incidents have been–you know, lost–people have been (Komara coughs) lost to that for decades. But the water and the, the–pulling the minerals out, the mineral rights collapsing, people–you know, people not knowing what they were signing off on. Because coal started out kind of simple. You know, the slag piles, the water retention ponds, all those things started to invade people’s privacy. And it took a long time before anybody spoke up because they didn’t want to lose their job. And of course, in the thirties, there was the big Harlan strikes, the union, 00:39:00and there was–you know, a lot of people finally voted up and said, “That’s enough.” And they made some progress. I mean, there was unions and that kind of thing. But then once that sort of fell out by the way and the coal seams started to run out, then they’ve been left with the mess. And I don’t know–(sighs) you know, at this point, my observation of a lot of those communities–especially when I got into enforcement because a lot of the enforcement I did was against these little communities. Little towns that had water problems or they have sewer leaking into the drinking water or different sorts of things, and you’re trying to enforce against them, but they didn’t have the resources. And they don’t have money. You know, they–what little bit of money they had, they try to put into things that are a little bit–like, the little local mayor of, you know, Belfry, Kentucky is gonna put in a playground that kids can see because the people will then vote for him, instead of fixing the leaking sewage 00:40:00that’s blowing up out of the street. And Lexington was no better. That’s why they were put under federal consent decree. Nobody wants to pay for sewage. You know, the average household in, in Lexington was only paying five bucks a month for sewage, and, and now, now it’s–what, forty? I mean, that’s more in line with what it takes to keep these lines. My, my project in public health was “How do we identify sewage leaks in stormwater?” And we used it with human genetic markers. You know, it was like–one of the, the, one of the really bright–Dr. Gail Bryan, over at–she’s just retired from UK, but she and her colleagues had come up with a way for us to simply identify sewage leaks and find them and track them down. But, you know, the crossover between those industries, coal, lack of infrastructure and all of that into human health is huge. Lead poisoning is a big deal in Kentucky. Paint. You know, maintenance, 00:41:00not being able to keep up–old, old paint had tons of lead in it, and it goes in the ground, kids play and they get sick. We have a really high percentage of kids in Kentucky with lead in their blood. And they’re doing better now. This is probably been ten or fifteen years ago. But those kinds of things impact people’s health in, in a very visceral way. I mean, they, they get sick and they lose IQ points. And, and it always kind of boils down to, “We don’t have the resources to fix it. And even if we did, we’d probably put it on this thing over here, because it’s either higher priority, in my mind, or it’s gonna get me reelected.” So, I’m struggling with, you know, how do you solve a problem like that when there’s no impetus? We do have, again, you know, candidates that see that. So, like Booker, for example. You know, being from Louisville, the way he is, I think he’s a very bright man. 00:42:00He sees a lot of opportunity to try to improve people’s health and lives by working with, you know, industries in Louisville and different places, but he doesn’t get elected. He hasn’t been elected yet. You know, I, I don’t know. We continue to elect people who want to keep things the way they are. I don’t know if it’s, you know, fear of change or what it is, but we’re, we’re at a point where we need a breakthrough and I’m not sure how I can help that. You know, I think, “Well, I’ll go volunteer and do this.” Well, I’ve done these things my whole life and I’ve never been the breakthrough. I’ve, I’ve had some good ideas and I’ve seen some influence that I’ve had, but I, I don’t–we need–you know, you think education, that used to be, “Well, we have to educate people.” But I’ve found that even when they’re educated, even with the facts in front of them–we’ve seen that at a national level–they’re not, they’re not responding. And so, you know, do we–(scoffs) I’ve even thought, “Do we have to wait till my generation 00:43:00dies off?” I mean, is that another way to do it and we just hang on until then? You know, try to keep it. So, (scoffs) I don’t know yet. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve struggled with that the last few years. You know, I, I don’t know how to fix it. It’s got–it’s, it’s obvious to me; why is it not obvious to other people that we are fouling our own nest? You know, and I am seeing, you know, regulatory–even though at the big national level you have a lot of Looney Tunes kind of taking the spotlight, regulations have slowly evolved at Kentucky state level, and even at the federal level, to try to stem some of this. I mean, Kentucky regulations slowly–you know, air is a good example. Air quality in, in the United States is significantly better today than it was in the Seventies. Much better. And that’s because of advancing regulations 00:44:00, holding people accountable, enforcing, educating, and we’re better than we were. Cars are slowly getting better, but it’s taken too long because of money. The money is what drags it back. And, you know, what I’m trying to do as an individual is, “What can I do as an individual to try to make it better? How can I influence it?” I, I don’t have an answer yet. I, I don’t know that I ever will, but I know we can’t all just abandon the ship. I mean, if everybody that thinks that way leaves Kentucky, Kentucky will sink, (laughs) you know? And so, we have to stay and try. And we’ve got pockets of people where we’re not the weird ones. And I know a lot of, I know a lot of young people that really impress me with their–you know, their optimism, their hope, and they’re smarter than I was at that–they, they understand the greed factor. And, you know, environmental, 00:45:00it’s almost like issues like gun control and things like that. I just do not–I don’t have a good answer for you. I wish I did. You know, predicting the future, I tend not to be a pessimist. I want to be an optimist. And I tend to believe young people will make a difference. Your age people. People younger than you. My granddaughter, I mean, she’s way smarter than me at ten. And she knows, you know, and, and we don’t waste that. We don’t do that. You know, we value–well, the other day a guy knocked on the door and he’s like–I go to the door and he goes, “Oh, I’m here. I’m an insecticide guy, you know, and I spray all these bugs and all this.” I said,–well, I said, “First off, we do a little bit of spraying around the perimeter of our house to keep the bugs from coming in too bad.” But I said, “I don’t want you spraying in my backyard because you’ll kill all the spiders.” And he’s like, “Well, isn’t that what you want?” I’m like, “No, because they eat the insects.” I don’t have mosquitoes. I mean, look where I live, we don’t have any mosquitoes, 00:46:00but I leave the bugs alone. Except if they come in and they’re crawling across my pillow. I don’t like that. Every once in a while I’ll cave. But, but, you know, you can’t just spray–there’s a little cafe up here called Luna’s, I don’t know if you’ve heard of it.

KOMARA: Mm-hmm? [affirmative]

TAYLOR: And they put out a thing about two weeks ago, real sad, that a lot of their butterflies had died because the adjoining property had sprayed insecticide and it killed their butterfly–it killed their lot of them. I was like, “What?” And, you know, because they have it, they, they’ve got the little open air and the stuff floated over and killed their butterflies, and it made me mad. And I’m like, “No, I don’t want your bug spray in my yard!” So, as an individual, I’m trying, but I don’t know how–we’ve got to get people in power that experienced what I did at that point, which is I can make the city of Lexington comply with a federal decree that will make our water cleaner. And now here I am, fourteen year–fourteen years later, 00:47:00we have much better water quality in Lexington than we had fourteen years ago. It is not perfect, but it is significantly better. Sewage–raw sewage does not go into stormwater in Fayette County anymore, unless it’s a failure of a pipe or a system. And they catch it. We test it, we find it, we know where it is, and we stop it. So, an investment fourteen years ago–of course, granted we were forced–but the people that worked in water in Lexington fourteen years ago knew it was bad, but they didn’t have any money. And the federal government came and enforced it, so money was raised, and it’s fixed. So, that–it works. It can work if you get the right people in the spots to make it go. You know, there’s a system that can work if people will let it. But there’s just a lot of issues that–you have to have the right people in the right spot. Right now there’s a lot of infrastructure money being–you know, with Biden as president, 00:48:00you know, he, he’s trying to get a lot of infrastructure money released, and that will make a big difference for communities. Like, we were talking–some of the little communities in eastern Kentucky, one of their issues is just getting them to work together and regionally. That’s another issue for Kentucky; I think we have a hundred and twenty counties, which is an enormous amount. I think they set it up that way so people could ride a horse and vote in one day. I mean, and it’s still that way, but we ran into little towns that would–all three of them would have drinking water and sewer outages. And they all had their own little individual plants and they couldn’t get enough trained operators to run them, and they’re all failing and they’re within fifteen miles of each other. So, why don’t we put a regional facility and work all three, or if this one’s at the highest elevation, we work this system here? And we would try to get them to work together, and they all are so used to being independent and having their own money 00:49:00coming in, they don’t want to work together. But it needs to be forced regionally, in my opinion. And this is kind of off the track, but I used to live across in Dogwood, over that way, and my lot backed up to this development here in Jessamine County. And one, one reason I got so active in water quality was, they were gonna put a package treatment plant right behind my house for a little development up there with a fast food and a dry cleaner and all this. And all these little package treatment plants, they’re almost left to run themselves. They don’t–they get monitored once every so often. But those are a lot of where you get water quality violations, is those little plants. So, they wanted to put one. So, anyway, our neighborhood organized and we called ourselves Neighborhoods Organized for South Elkhorn Creek or something. Anyway, we were all donating money and we went to court and we blocked it, and we forced Fayette County to allow Jessemine to tie into the sewer plant. 00:50:00Because, whether you know this or not, Fayette has two sewer plants. One of them is in Jessamine. One–the one that–we’ve got the one, you know, downtown, town branch, but the Jessamine plant is just across the Fayette border on Jessamine property. And it was not far from where they wanted to put this package plan. So, we had to go to court and we got an environmental judge to order Fayette to let them tie on with–you know, they had to pay for the service and all that. The reason they wouldn’t let them tie on is, ten years before this, the two county judge executives got in a fight and they would never–it’s bull. But they allowed them to tie in. And of course, that’s development out that way, but it’s all clean. The water is now going and it’s being treated and it’s handled properly. And otherwise we were gonna get more stuff spewing into these creeks over here, and it was gonna smell and be polluted water. But, you know, you get a neighborhood organized and we go, “Well, no. You’re not doing that. It’s okay if you want to develop. We understand that. 00:51:00But don’t dump your garbage in this creek behind our house,” which is what they were gonna do. But we stopped them. And so, I guess I learned early on that if you get enough people organized around something, and get some funding and a resource, you can solve the problem. You know, if you’re stubborn. And, and it works. But we just don’t have enough of that going on. I don’t know why. People are busy. You know, people have families. People are, like, trying to work. I know everybody’s got a full life, but you have to stop sometimes. Now that I’m retired (inhales) and with my mom just passing, because the last two years have consumed me taking care of her, I’m starting to think, “Well, where do I want to put my energy now?” You know? I’m sixty-six. If I’m lucky, I’ve got some time. You know, what do I want to do? And I don’t, I don’t know. That’s why you’ve asked me a question and I don’t have an answer for it because I’m thinking about it right now. “Where can I put my energy to make a difference?” You know? Because you can make a difference if you get it 00:52:00lined up. You got to have people and resources and education and, you know, and it goes. But somebody’s got to organize it and it’s hard. It’s hard. You know, when we stopped that, I, I went to every single house–door to door, every single house, and explained what was going on and what was gonna happen, and asked if they’d be willing to donate to put together a legal defense. And door to door, people would invite me in. I’d have to drink tea and eat a cupcake. And, you know, and I’d talk. But we raised a lot of money and we blocked it. You know, everybody put in a little bit, but–. So, that gave me–you know, “This is, this can work if you get it lined up right. So, don’t give up.”

KOMARA: I’m not gonna give up.

TAYLOR: Oh, no, I don’t think you will.

KOMARA: It sounds like you’re never gonna give up.

TAYLOR: Oh, no. Not until the end. Yeah.

KOMARA: And I’m, I’m interested on–you know, one thing that you’ve mentioned is that–you’ve pretty much discussed every environmental issue I can think of in Kentucky. 00:53:00You’ve worked on them all, right? And you’ve mentioned that, you know, people don’t always see the connections between these, right?

TAYLOR: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]

KOMARA: And I think we have a problem with, like, the issue of scale in Kentucky. Like, specifically not seeing this connected to global climate change.

TAYLOR: Yeah. (laughs)

KOMARA: I would love for you to talk about that a bit. Like, work that you’ve done on climate change and just how you see, you know, Kentucky’s issues connected to this.

TAYLOR: Well, you know, I think probably even before Kentucky saw itself connected to this, other states started connecting us because of the acid rain problem. And it kind of shocked me the first time I went to a–you know, they had a, they had an eastern regional meeting with states all lined up from New England all the way down–how they saw Kentucky and, and that we were this pollutant. You know, we were causing them to have acid rain and it was kind of our fault. And I also went to–Jim Newberry sent me to this wonderful conference. It was in New Mexico in 00:54:00Albuquerque, and it was on environmental climate issues. And of course, you know, I get off the plane and they had a van to take–it was a big meeting. There were maybe three or four hundred people at this meeting. And I climb in the van and everybody else in the van is from Washington and Oregon and, you know, all these cool states. And they’re like, “Where are you from?” I said, “Kentucky.” And they all looked at me like, “Ew!” You know, and I said, “I swear guys, I, I’m trying to fix it.” You know, and they all started laughing. But, you know, you were just like dirt. I mean, they saw us as just clueless and, and constantly–but then, you know, the other side of me thought, “But I bet a whole lot of these people don’t realize that they turn their hair dryer on in the morning and their stove and a lot of their power’s coming from coal. And, and yes, we’re dirty, and–but you’re a user. So–you know, so we all got to talk about this.” And so, I made some really good contacts nationally in different places, and tried 00:55:00to change, you know, where I could, the perception of us as being just clueless, dirty people. You know, we, we, we have an issue clearly, but, you know, that made me think pretty hard about the legacy that we’re leaving. And I think–there’s a lot of people, especially in government, that understand our connection. But water’s a big one. Air is a big one. You know, we, we all breathe the same air. We share a lot of the same waterways. And, and so I think that’s why you still see progress on regulations and all that. The public struggles, I think, to understand. We tried a lot–when I had the opportunity to do so, we did a whole lot of watershed education to try to help kids understand. And they’d do sand tables, like, if you do something up here, how does that impact down here? And it does, you know. You pour something in here–. But we still have a lot of people 00:56:00that don’t connect their daily behavior with how they, as an individual, contribute. And I haven’t seen as much push on education for adults as I did back when I had the opportunity. We had, you know, community meetings, we’d go out and talk about it. And I just–I haven’t seen a lot of that lately. I do think it matters. I think–you know, I, I guess–well, when I was in there, we put a lot of money into the campaigns, like, you know, “No dumping to streams”. We got together with schools, we went out and painted ducks on things. We did, you know, a lot of, like, just right at ground level, so people understand, “You can’t pour that down that drain. That–do you understand that goes–?” And I think we’ve made progress in some of those things. I think educating people–even though it doesn’t always, and we’ve got clear examples of that nationally. “Here’s the facts,” and they’re like, “I don’t want to see the facts.” But especially with younger people and, and even–you know, 00:57:00you get people out–take them out in a watershed and you show them how things connect, and you show them, you know, where the aluminum goes, and you show them how that can be recycled. And with business, I think the big trick is you gotta show them it, it saves you money. And it does. You know, if you use lighter weight materials, it costs less to truck them from place to place. If you use recyclable materials, the content–you can probably save yourself a few cents a jar or a box or a whatever. Or, you know, reducing the density of the fiber board, or–there’s all kinds of ways that you can–especially businesses really responds to money. So, if you can show them that, “Not only are you a good corporate citizen, you’re gonna save money by doing it the right way,” and then you back it up with enforcement, which is, “If you don’t do it the right way, then we’re gonna charge you a lot of money and maybe even somebody goes to jail in a really bad situation–” (phone rings) Oh, sorry. 00:58:00You know, that would make a difference. But I don’t see a real organized effort right now in Kentucky, and maybe I’m a bit removed to help educate people. We, we used to run ads all the time. Of course, nobody watches regular TV much anymore, so maybe that’s part of it. Maybe our traditional ways of reaching people have changed and we need a better way. You know, obviously, you know, Facebook and Instagram and TikTok and everything, there’s a lot of opportunity to get to people, but I don’t see it anymore like I used to. Like, I don’t really even know what they’re doing in school because they’re all teaching to content, you know? And I don’t know–there’s not that much–my, my granddaughter’s an example. She goes to Maxwell Spanish Immersion. She speaks three languages and she’s ten. But she–they’ve done some environmental work. She was telling me about this year. She just finished fourth grade and they had some projects, 00:59:00and I was real enthused about it. She’s like, “Let me tell you,” because she knows I’ll like. So, she’s telling me all about her projects and air quality and this and that and the other. And I’m like, “Well, I’m really glad you all did that.” She said, “Well, we didn’t do it before, but this year we did it.” And I’m like, “Well, good.” You know, but to me, why is that not part of every year? Why, why–you know, little kids–my daughter that got on me about buying a hybrid the other day, in second grade she had a teacher at elementary school that was–had them collect aluminum cans. And it’s the first time I’d ever seen that done in a school. She’s forty-two now. So, it’s–seven years old, they were collecting cans, and they would take the cans and then they would do things with them that were fun. Like, they went to a UK women’s basketball game and bought pizza for the whole class. You know, but then they would also take half the money and do something good for the world, for the environment. So, they did bird feeders and a butterfly garden, and they did other–you know, and she’s held onto that lesson. 01:00:00She’s forty-two and she’s still harassing me about buying a hybrid. You know, “Don’t you dare buy a regular gas car, mom.” And I’m like, “I know. I know.” But, I mean, that’s been part of her life, and now my granddaughter’s like that. I mean, so, I think somehow we’ve got to educate people young enough that they understand that you can’t just waste things and you can’t just throw them down, and you should turn your lights off. And you–you know, you as an individual make a difference, and then you as an individual in the working world can make a difference in your company. You know, where you work. Lots of people work for a company or even the–I worked for–I did–I don’t even remember if I said. I was actually the water quality person for UK for a little while. About–it was, it was less than a year, but then I went on to a different job. But you could make a difference where you work. I was even hired into an environmental job and I saw immediately there were things that were problems. I’m like, “Hey, we need to work on this.” 01:01:00And I had a boss that didn’t really want to do that, so I left. But, you, you know, you can make a difference wherever you are. If you’re a teacher, you know, if you’re a worker in a factory, if–you know. But I don’t see a lot of connectedness or reward for that right now. I don’t know why. Is it not cool anymore or (inhales) what? You know, I don’t know. (sighs) I even–you know, I even worried a little bit about the fireworks. It’s huge. People love it. Animals hate it. I, I have guilt feelings about it because it’s huge. I mean, people come and they have the best time and they bring their children and everybody. It’s community and we have a picnic and–you know, and we recycle everything. But I think, “Well, but it’s right there and they want to come see it.” So, I let them come see it, but while they’re here, we recycle and we have those–I mean, we try to do all kinds of other things that make it at least–I guess 01:02:00makes my guilt better, maybe, I guess, is what I want to say. But, you know, it’s complicated, and each of us has to do what we can do, but we have to be made aware and I don’t know how.

KOMARA: Yeah.

TAYLOR: I don’t know.

KOMARA: Well, I mean, I think you’re one of those people out there doing the good work that makes people aware.

TAYLOR: Tried. Not enough now. I haven’t done enough now, but, you know, I’m trying. I’m trying to get back into it and figure out, “Where can I help? What can I do?” And I don’t know what, because it’s not that obvious.

KOMARA: Yeah.

TAYLOR: Bluegrass Greensource said I could come over there anytime I wanted to work over there, so I, I may see what they have for volunteers. And–but there’s a lot of–there’s Kentucky Educational, there’s a group in state government. There’s, there’s a lot of groups–

KOMARA: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]

TAYLOR: –but they’re not all well-funded. They’re not all well-resourced. There’s not a real alliance, you know? I don’t know.

KOMARA: Yeah. 01:03:00Have you–I, I think, I think that when you worked for Lexington under Mayor Jimmy Newberry, that you did some climate-specific work. I know then in 2011, they produced that Kentucky Climate Action Plan.

TAYLOR: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]

KOMARA: Can you tell me, like, a little bit about any, like, climate specific work you’ve done in Kentucky?

TAYLOR: Well, probably–I guess for the–in Lexington, one of the big things we tried to do was start converting our, our garbage trucks. Garbage trucks cost about three hundred and fifty thousand dollars a, a piece. And when I came into that role, we had over a hundred and twenty-five garbage trucks, and most of them were very old and they spewed out a lot of diesel. And public health, I’d done some research in diesel and, you know, impacts on people’s breathing, and I didn’t like it. 01:04:00So, we had a lot of money stockpiled. People pay, you know, their, their taxes and that includes your garbage. And we have a lot of money, or we did, but we’d been sitting on it and it had been building. So, when I got in there, we had a lot of money available, and all these old gas-spewy garbage trucks. And then the way people picked up garbage routes was they just put it on, like, a map, a piece of paper, and they had a route. And everybody went out on their route. (inhales) It’s, it’s an unusual culture, garbage is. I loved it. It’s a lot of fun. It’s, it’s a very African American-dominated culture as well. It’s not a very well-paid job. You get a lot of people that, you know, they don’t have other kind of work that they can do, so they do this. But there’s a lot of energy and, and enthusiasm. And so, we put in place–while I was there, we funded–I had to justify to the council–efficiency improvements for 01:05:00garbage trucks, routes, and machinery. So, the–probably that was one of the biggest capital projects I did for the city. We, we got rid of–we took–the routes was a big deal. It was–you know, eliminating left turns, for example. Do you know how much gas that saves? Because those trucks only get two, three miles to the gallon, and you’re burning up diesel, diesel, diesel. So, you know, when you’re turning left, you have to wait. And you put your signal and you wait, you wait, you wait, you wait, and you turn left. Well, if you can make a route so that it turns right all the time, and it’s in–you know, it follows a logical flow, it’s logistics. So, it was a logistics improvement project. It was huge. We bought software, we got company in, and we worked on it. It took–gosh! I’d say a couple of–two and a half years maybe before we were ready to implement. While we were working on those routes–and all the garbage collectors got involved because they would give you their opinion. You know, it was kind of cool. And then we had to put computers 01:06:00in these trucks. So, we got rid of a lot of those old diesel trucks and we bought thirty–twenty-seven, twenty-seven brand new high-efficiency engine trucks that could be operated with one person, instead of those guys hanging off the back and the oil leaking down the road. And we replaced our oldest ones and then we serviced the others and converted some of them. And we got–from a hundred and twenty-five trucks going out every day, we got it down, before I left, to, like, eighty. So, all those trucks got eliminated, all that fuel, all that diesel, and we could do the same a–amount of pickups with eighty trucks that we had done with a hundred and twenty-five. And then, while that happened, we also earmarked trucks for recycle. So, we had a new recycle path, and we bought the recycling equipment twelve, thirteen years ago, maybe fourteen. Because before, it was all hand done. It was all 01:07:00these people that we would power in, temporary people. A lot of them were immigrants, and they were exposed to all kinds of issues. It was belts, and they would pick things out. I mean, it was awful. There’d be, like, ants. Like thirty people out there, forty people picking. So, we bought this piece of equipment. It was a four-million-dollar machine, but it was the start of the Lexington recycling system that we have today. Now, they had problems with it last year because they didn’t maintain it. I can tell you exactly what they did. But, anyway. But when it started up, it increased our recycle percentage significantly. And then we also, uhm, did a garbage study. We–Bluegrass Greensource helped us with that. But we, we took garbage trucks and completely unloaded them and put them in piles, and figured out that, what was going in the garbage about–I forgot the percentages. I don’t want to give you something incorrect. But a large percentage of what went in the truck 01:08:00, somewhere around seventy percent, was actually recyclable. So, we started gathering data, and all that to me was trying to improve, you know, all of the pollution, all of the land pollution, water pollution, and air pollution that we were generating. We also did a climate plan for, for Lexington, and we, and we hired a person to be our energy manager. So, for example, the sewer systems here–we have huge pumps that are enormous draws for electrical energy. And of course, in order to generate that energy, most of it came from a coal plant. So, the less energy we had to draw, the better. And we hired an energy manager who–let’s see. I’ve seen him since–he worked for the city for a long time. Oh, he’s at state government now, in the air quality division, actually. But anyway, they–he worked really hard to try to improve the energy efficiency 01:09:00of the pumping systems, that we had to reduce the amount of energy they had to draw and therefore less, less waste of electricity. Which to me is a connection to climate change. We didn’t have a lot of success with–traffic is one of the big things here. We didn’t have a lot of success there, but we did initiate some contacts with state and federal government about, like I said, the green corridor. We were trying to promote electric vehicles. We met with the bus companies here and tried to see if we could get some of those to switch over. And they had–they did. They, they started their program back then. Buses are not very efficient in Lexington, as you’ve probably noticed–

KOMARA: –Mm-hmm– [affirmative]

TAYLOR: –but we made an attempt on that one. We did a lot of work to try to–with trees, was another one. We, we made–we did rain gardens downtown, but we also tried to encourage planting of trees and we started a program for neighborhoods. And in fact, we have a wetlands back here. 01:10:00I didn’t do it, but the neighborhood applied for one of the grants. I didn’t control any of it. I mean, I stayed away. But–and they were approved for a grant to plant trees. A lot of these trees over here, see, they–you know, it’s just runoff from the road. It needs to be better. We have a lady that sponsored–there’s a bunch of baby trees up here, but they keep planting trees. But we started programs to help neighborhoods plant trees, and so they could apply for grants, and that would be to offset the carbon footprint. We did a tree canopy study, you know, to try to show that if we would leave trees alone, it wouldn’t be so hot. So, a lot of it was small things. The biggest stuff I probably worked on were around the, the fleet change. At the state level, at a policy level, mostly it was around trying to get regulations in place to make sure that companies that generated pollution were controlled. 01:11:00So, you know, I could have done more, I think. I wish I could’ve done more. But, you know, it was a start. And then we did try to engage in a lot of regional conversations with our neighbors to assure them that we were doing–trying to improve our acid rain situation. And slowly coal dependency in Kentucky’s dropping. So, that’s what I can think of off the top of my head.

KOMARA: Yeah, yeah. Like, you have truly done an impressive depth and breadth of work surrounding, like I said, pretty much every environmental issue in Kentucky.

TAYLOR: Well, dabbled in it. Yeah.

KOMARA: Dabbled. I, I think you’ve done more than dabbled. It seems pretty great. What are–you know, what are some of the biggest lessons that you’ve learned from doing environmental work in all of your roles? Your many various roles? Big lessons? Big takeaways?

TAYLOR: I guess for me, it’s 01:12:00really important to try to connect to people at a personal level, (clears throat) so that they see that they make a difference. I think that’s a basic building block for our whole society; is if they see they have some accountability and that they can positively make a difference, then I think they will. I still believe that. I know there’s a lot of evidence in society today that says that’s not the case, but I’ve seen a lot of success in connecting people with something they feel that they can control and do. And, you know, I–I’ve got all my wildflowers out there for butterflies. You know, I’ve seen a lot of people start to make–think about what they’re doing: they’re planning, they’re recycling. I think that it cannot be over-emphasized how important it is to try, especially with business world, to make a financial connection for them. I think you have to make them understand that failure to participate has consequences that will 01:13:00damage their business. Either, you know, maybe they’re not so afraid anymore of environmental–a poor environmental reputation, but there really is a lot of value in doing things to reduce waste. And if you as a business can reduce waste, you’re gonna save money for your business. So, I think you have to–sometimes it’s personal, like, “If I do this, I can bring more butterflies in.” Or, “If I do this, I can save money in my business.” But somehow you have to get people to connect to it in a way that they relate to. I think you also have to respect that probably people do things the way they do them because that’s–they’ve never thought of a different way. So, you have to be willing to listen to them first and then come back with–you, you can’t beat them over the head and get where you want to get a lot of times. Sometimes you have to, but most of the time it’s–you have to understand where they’re coming from. And then once you do that, maybe you can 01:14:00suggest, “Hey, had you thought about maybe this or that?” Or offer this sort of resource. And a lot of times they’ll go, “Well, hmm, no. I hadn’t really thought about doing it that way.” Or–but I think it, it comes down to the individual in a lot of cases, for me. And getting–and I, I don’t think that’s any big aha. I think it’s a lot of work to get people to pay attention to this. And, you know, I, I think there–somewhere I read, I guess back in my safety days, you know, you can tell people, “Don’t stick your hand in there,” but there’s usually a way to get them to think about that. “You know, if you stick your hand in there and it gets cut off, your family does–you know, your family’s gonna suffer because then you’re losing income.” Or, or there’s, there’s different ways to get people to listen to you, and sometimes you have to scare them and sometimes you have to engage them. But you have to understand that person and their communication system so that you can try 01:15:00to pull the thread that gets them to draw–that draws them in, you know? And, and it takes a lot of one-to-one time and a lot of work to get people to engage. And I think the last several years, as a country and maybe–and as me personally, I haven’t engaged with people the way I, I, I know I need to in order to get them to make a change to the way that I think they might benefit from. And, and I think I’ve gotten tired. I think a lot of it it’s been between COVID and the political environment in this country. I mean Barack Obama, to me, was just–it was like the culmination of all these wonderful things that I always thought we would be. And then you watched it plummet, you know, with a fool in charge. And I got so disgusted by some of the things–people that I’ve known my whole life that are not–I never thought of them as bad people–you know 01:16:00, were okay with that. So, my whole view–I almost backed away for the last few years. And I don’t–I think I, I’m reflective of other people. I have a lot of friends that, that are liberal or they’re environmentalists and they got really tired and backed away. But now it’s kind of like, “Okay, time to get our head out from under the rock. How can I reengage? How can I get people to participate?” And I think a lot of it is, you’ve got to be able to get them to see their connection in this big scheme of things. How they’re–they belong. They, they have a role and, and they can impact change, and don’t give up. And, I–you know, I’ve had to get my–I guess my energy back. I, I’ve been in hibernation for a few years from a personal level for–because of my mom’s stuff, but also politically and COVID wise, I’ve just withdrawn a bit. And now I see it’s time to quit whining 01:17:00and get back to work. I mean, I’m at that point. I mean, if you’d have called me two years ago, I’m not sure I would’ve wanted to talk, because I was so depressed about, “It’s not fixed. I did all this stuff and it’s–.” But now I’m like, “Well, you know, if Iowa can get most of their energy from wind power–,” and I don’t think of Iowa as a particularly progressive state. You know, just like they probably don’t think we are. But I’m driving across going, “I’ll be–look at this!” There’s all these–and I’m looking it up and I got in–interested. And in Colorado, they’ve got the biggest wind farm in the country and I’m like, “Well, people are doing things out here. I shouldn’t give up.” And, you know, Kentucky, just because we’re a bit hardheaded, I mean, we have–I think I read, and I think it’s still true, that we have more native Kentuckians in Kentucky than any other state has native, and so, we have very deep roots. Very deep roots. And my family’s lived here since the seventeen–all my ancestors came here in 1700s for work. They were probably really poor. They lived in Scotland and England and Wales 01:18:00, and they all came over here and got work. And so, they’ve been here ever since doing it the same way, and it’s time, it’s time to fix that. I think we, we can do good work, but it is time to evolve how we do that. And instead of being behind the pack, we should be ahead of the pack. We have, we have water resources here that are pretty incredible. I mean, really, hydro power. I mean, we have all kinds of things [inaudible 01:18:23]. Dams have their own set of issues. They have all kinds of environmental impacts too but, you know, we, we could do better. And, you know, I wish I had a magic answer for you. I don’t. But I think people have to feel–once again, they have to personally feel that they can have an influence and that they’re touched by that somehow. Sometimes you can get them with kids, their grandkids, their–you know. But some people you have to hit them over the head with it too, so. But I haven’t found a way to do that, that I had before when I was in public service. There, you could impact large groups of people in 01:19:00settings and meetings and engage them, and there’s a lot of energy that builds that way. And after COVID, I think we’ve lost some of that momentum, and maybe it’s time we start doing more things. We did an environmental concert at Lafayette High School. I mean, we–I did all kinds of weird little things, especially because of my kids, because all six of them are all different. There’s musicians and actors. One of my daughters is a lecturer. She–for biology. She’s, she’s a PhD molecular biologist, so she works at UK. The other one works at UK children [[Kentucky Children’s Hospital]]. She’s a doctor in physical therapy. So, I have all these different venues where I can engage. And as they’ve grown up, I’ve tried to, you know, all the way through. And (sighs) yeah, maybe it’s time I got my head out of sand and try it again, but I don’t know. I know I’ve probably talked you to death, so I didn’t mean to do that, but–

KOMARA: –That, that’s what this is for– (laughs)

TAYLOR: I don’t have good answers. I don’t have good answers, but I have a lot of thought about it. And, you know, I think you have to be careful of the money. 01:20:00You have to think about resources. You have to connect people as individuals and how they play a role in this, and empower them. You know, you have to empower people. It’s–you have to give them what they need to do, and then give them a little push and then they succeed. I always felt–I’ve always gotten the feedback. The biggest department I ever managed was the state and it was over eight hundred people. And I don’t think I’ve ever left a job where people didn’t cry, and it, it’s because I care a lot about people. I care about them. I care about how they feel about their work, and I want them to succeed. And so, I think you use the same kind of strategy when you want them to do things that are good for all of us. How do I tie them in and make them feel important? Because every single person is important. Every single person makes a difference. But you’ve got to get them to believe that, and it takes engagement. And, and that takes 01:21:00time and effort. And with COVID I think we all backed out of everything for a while, and now we’re having to figure out what to do again. And, and I think, I think we will. I, I have hope. I’m an optimist. I always have been. But boy, I get frustrated sometimes, you know?

KOMARA: Yeah. Yeah, that’s actually something that I’m, I’m hearing from people that I’ve interviewed from this, for this project. Particularly the environmental activists who do, like, collective organizing work.

TAYLOR: There’s some great people in Kentucky. I mean, there’s a lot of people that–I, I’ve worked with a lot of very active people in Kentucky, all the way from eastern to western, and they’re inspiring. They stay engaged. And, and I, I chickened out and backed out a little bit here and there and–you know, but they continue to like, “Why don’t you come over here? We’re gonna have a watershed meeting.” I’m like, “I’m not ready. I’m not ready. I’m not–” But I’m, I’m about ready now, so, you know. I’m trying to get re-energized again, so.

KOMARA: Yeah. Well, I’ve asked you a lot of questions but, 01:22:00you know, I’m always curious what question I haven’t asked people that they think I should know. So, is there anything that I haven’t asked you that you–I–you think I, I should know or we should know about, you know, your environmental work in Kentucky or just environmentalism in Kentucky? Anything. Anything you think I should know that I haven’t asked?

TAYLOR: Gosh! I’ve talked so much, (Komara laughs) I don’t know that there’s anything else to offer. You know, I’ve just–I’ve met more people in my life that I think want to do the right thing than those that don’t, and that kind of continues to fuel me. So, I think Kentuckians are a hardy bunch. They’re stubborn. They’re feisty. They have their feet on the ground. They’re hard workers. And I, I’d like to see them put that energy kind of back into more positive things than we’ve been seeing, you know, lately. And anyway, I, I have 01:23:00hope that–I’m, I’m proud of being a Kentuckian, you know? And–but then I’m, I’m, I’m mad (laughs) because it’s, it’s time we kind of got our head out of the sand and did something about this. And coal in particular is the lightning rod. And the thing about coal is it’ll die out anyway. I mean, we’ve all known for a long time, that’s a, that’s non-renewable resource. It’s going to be gone. And anybody that keeps thinking that that’s where you need to put your energy is a fool. And, you know, all that, “Well, by god! The coal miners.” What do we have left? A few thousand coal miners? And, and I respect the work. My grandfathers were coal miners. I get it. But it’s time to move on. We need to be investing in people. New skills, new training, new environment. You know, resources for people, infrastructure. You know, quit–united, we stand, divided, we fall, and we’ve operated as a divided state for a long time, in my opinion, and it’s time to fix some of that. But I’m not 01:24:00in the position to necessarily dictate any of it, but I’m hoping some of our leaders will be. And I can influence at a local level, so I’ll do my best, you know?

KOMARA: Yeah, yeah. Well, this has been a wonderful interview.

TAYLOR: I’m sorry if it was boring and convoluted, but it’s–there’s so many thoughts, so many years.

KOMARA: No, this is great. You’re exactly the kind of person I love to interview because you lay some facts on the table and also do analysis about, like, how you feel about it and why, why you think it’s important. This was, this was really, really wonderful. I really thank you for taking the time to do this.

TAYLOR: Well, it was you that took the effort and, you know, I don’t know that I have anything particularly bright to say about it, but I care and hopefully, you know, you’ve found a lot of other people that care as well. And we’re all different walks of life and ages and backgrounds and educations. But it’s–you know, there’s enough of us out here. We ought to be able to make a difference, so I’m gonna keep trying as long as I can.

KOMARA: Awesome. 01:25:00Well, thank you so much.

TAYLOR: Well, you too. It’s nice of you to come and visit.

KOMARA: Now, let’s see. I hope–this is the moment of fear that I always have.

[End of recording]