Interview with Joseph A. Marshall, May 22, 1986

JOSEPH MARSHALL: I don't know too much about them, really.

CHARLES HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: I really don't. It's been so long, I'm --

HARDY: --yeah--

MARSHALL: --you know, I went on pension in '46.

HARDY: Yeah. Well, you know, I--the way, the way I approach these interviews is, I figure, we get a little here, a little bit there. And then it all starts to come together. Um--

MARSHALL: Um-hm.

HARDY: So I, sure, it's been--the stuff we're going to ta--it's been sixty, seventy years now--

MARSHALL: Yeah.

HARDY: --so I'm sure that

MARSHALL: My gosh…

HARDY: a lot, but, um, I bet your memory is pretty good for --

MARSHALL: I don't know. I'm getting old too fast.

HARDY: Hmm!

MARSHALL: I, I, I, I'll tell you, I, frankly, I would like to just talk about the, uh, about the firemen--

HARDY: --OK--

MARSHALL: --that, uh, that I worked with, I knew, I, uh, we only had two platoons back in those days. We got four now, and, um, you learn, to know the various men that you worked with. And, uh, Ike Jacobsen, Steve Presco, Bill 00:01:00Sheef . Bill Sheef was the third colored man appointed, and I was fortunate enough to have, have the pleasure of working, actually working in the, in Engine Eleven with Bill Sheaf, for three months. Died on my birthday.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: And he was quite a guy, quite a character, now, hmm. From Bill Sheaf on down, I know the men very well. Ike Jacobsen, Presco were before my time.

HARDY: What can you tell me about Bill Sheaf, then?

MARSHALL: Uh, I got him in here, too. Um, Bill Sheaf, uh--his name, if-- his name was William Sheen, but everyone called him Bill Sheaf. Uh, Bill was the, uh, third man, the third colored man appointed in the Philadelphia fire 00:02:00department, Uh, April the 10th, 1907. And, uh, he passed the 13th of February, 1924. Happy, jolly, always smoked a cigar, and, um, his day off, you could see him walking down South Street, in the direction that would bring him past the firehouse, and he knew all of the, all of the merchants. Oh, I've seen him at, uh--when he would, uh, probably be a little short of change, and he'd signal to one of the merchants across the street. He'd throw up one finger, or two fingers, or maybe five. That means he wanted to borrow a dollar, or five 00:03:00dollars, as the case might be. And he'd always get it. They'd never turn him down because they knew, eh, they, ge, knew Bill would pay them on pay day when he got paid. Uh, he lived in the neighborhood, and, uh, so he was at Thir--Twelfth and Lombard, Twelfth or Thirteenth and Lombard, on the north side of the street. And, I guess, Bill and his wife had, uh, lived there for a number of years. Couldn't ride to work, you had to walk to work--it's just only a couple of squares away from Old Engine Eleven. Everybody highly respected Bill, that is, the members of the company, the officers included. And, uh, Bill apparently came into the, the department, uh, later than the, the average. By 00:04:00that, I mean, he must have been in his thirties when he entered the department. And, uh, his health began to break down, to the point where, uh, the officers and the men on the, on the platoon would, uh, more or less, look after Bill. They'd help him out, constantly. A lot of jobs, Bill used to do on the fire ground, he couldn't do, at, uh, at that particular time, due to, uh, oh, I guess, he had rheumatism or arthritis, or something like that. He couldn't get around. He was a heavy man, big man. And, uh, no one objected to help him, helping Bill Sheaf out. Uh, I think, Bill developed complications, and, uh, he 00:05:00g --from, from that, uh, he passed. He was missed by everyone, because, uh, he always--because he possessed a, a very jolly nature. One thing about him, one of, one characteristic of h--he'd prom--he shook his finger at you and promise you that he was gonna do something, and he would do it. Eh, that was getting even with you for we--for, uh, pestering him. We had, uh, a couple of boys who worked with Bill from, uh, from the time they entered the department, back in 1919, and, uh, they used to kid him a lot. And, uh, his way of getting even 00:06:00would be to wait until you, uh, got in bed and were sound asleep, and then he would, eh, creep up the steps with a piece of rubber hose, and wail a daylights out of you--[laughs]--we used to get a kick out of that. You know, caught-caught another one. He would actually do it. But, uh, quite a, quite a chap. Uh, we thought so much of Bill, that, uh, hmm, during the, one of the Christmas dinners--the last one that, uh, the Johnson Ink Works, uh, gave us--they used to do that every, every year, every Christmas, the, uh, officials of the Johnson Ink Works, which was located down the, uh, southeast corner of, uh, Tenth and Lombard. And, actually, we were first due--I was there--business was located, uh, in our local district. And, uh, Bill was home sick. So 00:07:00someone suggested, let's go around and get Bill, and, uh, bring him over, bring him over to the firehouse, so that he can, uh, betake of the meal--which we did. One of the boys had a car, so--I was, uh, asked to go along, so, uh, I gladly did, of course. And so, we got him dressed in his, eh, Sunday best, and we had to pick him up and just actually carry him out of the house and set him in the car. And, uh, when we got around to the firehouse, we, uh, carried him up the steps to the second floor, front room, where the, uh, the, uh, where the dinner was going to be served in the sitting room. And, uh, he sat there, and, uh, smoked his usual cigar, puffing on that. And, uh, the battalion chief was 00:08:00there, along with our officers, and all of the off-duty men, and we had quite an affair. We put Bill at the head, head of the table, because he was the oldest, uh, active fireman. We gave him that honor, and, uh, we were all hoping that he, he enjoyed the, the meal. Whether he did or not, I don't know. However, uh, he enjoyed the, uh, the fellowship of the, uh, men present. That's it.

HARDY: Did he ever talk about, um, how he was appointed to the force?

MARSHALL: No. It's going too far back. You may rest assured, see, that was 19-7--

HARDY: --right--

MARSHALL: --Bill came in 19-7. So, it's all politics, all politics. In fact, 00:09:00um, all the boys that, were, were appointed. It was- they were political appointments. They--and that went for promotions also, all p--all political.

HARDY: Who controlled that?

MARSHALL: Well, the administration that was, uh, in power at that particular time. Uh, you had to be, uh, certified by some recognized politician, might be your ward leader, or your committeeman, or some, uh, city official. But if you weren't certified, you didn't get appointed. Uh, I recall my own case. I was 00:10:00twenty-one on the original list to be appointed, and, uh, I found out, by looking the, uh, civil service list over--there used to be, in the, uh, the west corridor of City Hall, on the bulletin board. And, uh, I found out that someone had been appointed, uh, before me. My name was blank. Alongside that name, below me, was appointed. So, uh, I went up to civil service, the civil service room in City Hall, and the clerk was kind enough to, uh, show me the big book 00:11:00where the list, the others of the list were, uh, were uh, contained. And he says that, "You see, alongside your name is no certification. So," he says, "you've got to be certified." So, not being a politician, I inquired and, uh, from one of the, uh, firemen that I knew down at Engine Eleven, and he says, uh, I explained the situation to him. He said, "But what are you doing tomorrow morning?" I says, "Nothing." He says, "well meet me, uh, down here at eight o'clock." I says, "Fine." So, uh, he took me over to see, uh, R. R. Wright Jr. And he explained the situation, and, um, at that time, R. R. Wright Junior was, uh, quite a power, a political power in this man's town. And, uh, he knew Mayor 00:12:00J. Hampton Moore very well. So, uh, I was a good friend of this fireman, and, uh, he knew Moore and Wright, and I didn't--[laughs]--was just doing me a favor. And, uh, he dictated a letter to his secretary, and he sealed it--signed it and sealed it. He says, "You take this up to the Mayor," which I did, immediately, same day. And, uh, three days later, I had been sworn in and was in uniform. That's the way it worked with me, in my particular case. But, uh, and the, the, uh, the same thing was true, uh, in all of, uh, appointments to the fire department, or the police department, or any city job. If it was a civil 00:13:00service job, why, then, of course, you had to be certified by somebody. I saw that myself in black and white. They write the word "certified" alongside of your name and then you're in.

HARDY: --[laughs]--I would, I would, uh, you know, when Hampy Moore was Mayor, he could get, uh, people appointed. Most of the, the certification that came at that time went through the, the Vare machine and Charlie Hall or, or Billy McCoach down in that area, wasn't it? Hampy Moore handled, and, and R. R. Wright had a little, little, short time they were able to get people in, but before and after, it was the Vare machine.

MARSHALL: Well, the Vares, of course, were a, a political power. There's no two ways about that. But, uh, mine was a personal appointment from the mayor.

HARDY: How about, um, the appointment of the other men who came in between 1919 00:14:00and--I noticed that, in the list of appointments you showed, that, uh, between 19-7 and 1917, no one. Then Jim Davis came on. Then in 1919, a whole series of, of black men were appointed.

MARSHALL: Well, the reason, the reason for that, was in 1918, the, the, uh, two-platoon system was, uh, uh, instituted in the city: Philadelphia. And, uh, whereas the overall picture of, um, of, um, 900 men for the fire department had to be doubled. So they put in another platoon. You see what I mean? And, with the result that, um, uh, it was, uh, 8 or 900 men appointed. That's the reason 00:15:00why they, they, uh, appointed so many in 1919. By way of illustration, uh, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen--there are fifteen men appointed from between 1918 and 1919. Then we had two men appointed in 1920. And, uh, one in 1923--that was me. So that's, that was, that was the why of that. When the, uh, when the, uh, two-platoon system went into effect, and, uh, it was effective in 1918--we had two men appointed in 1918, but the majority of them were appointed in 1919.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: You had to make up the, uh, uh, fill up the quotas for the, uh, various companies. So, called for a lot of men.

HARDY: Out of those 800 or 900 who were appointed, there were those--how many did you say? Eighteen or something?

MARSHALL: Um--

HARDY: --that--

MARSHALL: --let's see. We had two men in 1918 appointed. And one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, thirteen men appointed in 1919.

HARDY: So thirteen black men--

MARSHALL: --thirteen men!

HARDY: --out of 8 or 900, right? And these were the first in a long-time. What--do you know what took place that they would--it was after the war that the--this was the first time, black men were really getting on the force in any numbers.

MARSHALL: In any great number, yeah,

HARDY: Right.

MARSHALL: … prior to that, we had, um, one man appointed in 1917. And, uh, 00:17:00that was, uh, ten years after the, uh, third man was appointed. Let's see, 1886 up through 1917, seventeen and four is twenty-one.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: That's twenty-one years.

HARDY: And all of a sudden, in 1919, there's a burst of, uh--

MARSHALL: --yeah--

HARDY: --of appointments.

MARSHALL: They had, they had to make up that other platoon, that second platoon.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Prior to that, they had worked one platoon, where you worked, uh, let's see, you had one day off a week, I think [telephone rings], and three hours for--that's OK.

[BREAK IN RECORDING ]

HARDY: Um, who made the appointments of all these men in 1919, first off? And 00:18:00then, what sort of men were they? You know, is there any way to characterize them as a group?

MARSHALL: Yeah, uh, truck drivers, ex-servicemen, hard working men. That just about covers it. And a lot of them were, you know.

HARDY: I spoke to a fella named J.B. Summers, who was a politician and worked for the, the Record, I guess, back in the, the, like, newspapers, um, who had some friends on the department--I forgot to ask him who--he said that, really, back during the, the twenties, the--being a firemen was a very prestigious job and--

MARSHALL: --it was--

HARDY: --most of the men were, I guess, members of the Citizens of the Republican Club and were pretty well-to-do. Does that--?

MARSHALL: You could say that--it didn't--but not as a general statement, because, uh, uh, when I say ex-servicemen, I mean ex-servicemen--Army and Navy--and, um, truck drivers. None of us, um--Howard Graham --uh, post office workers. That's right. That's what they were. Post office workers, uh, Army, Navy, s--so--servicemen in the Army and the Navy, and, uh, truck drivers. That was it.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: The, the, those early birds, I'm talking about.

HARDY: Right.

MARSHALL: And Jim Davis was a, um, special delivery boy, who used to ride a bicycle, delivering special deliveries. And, uh, then we got down to me. I was 00:20:00right out of school. In fact, uh, this is off the record, about, about me being right out of school, which I was. I was, I was a student. I was going to private school in Brooklyn, New York, and, uh, I had three months to go for graduation. And, uh, the year before, I had, uh, um, during the summer vacation, I had applied for summer work, and I didn't get it because I was colored. And, uh, I had three months to go before graduating, and I went to the Head of the Department, Dr. Cook, whose name I'll never forget. And, uh, I wanted to be placed with G.E. or Western Electric, as they were grabbing those graduates--I was, I was taking, uh, uh, industrial and electrical 00:21:00engineering--and, um, they would feed them, uh, through their various departments for four years, you know. I mean, just like a, like an intern work--he'd work so long in this department, and so long in the other department, and, if you left at the end of four years, or if you stayed with him, you were, you were just about tops, you know. I wanted that. So, Dr. Cook looked at me, he listened to my story, and, he said, "Well," he said, "you can go south and teach." He might as well have spit in my face--

HARDY: --hmm--

MARSHALL: --because, uh, I'd never been south. I live in the same ward now that I was born in, the 22nd Ward. So that hurt. So I, I made up my mind, as I was going to. I says, I'm gonna go home--to myself--I'm gonna go home, get a job, and stay there. And I did just that--same day. I went back. I was living at the YMCA over there in Brooklyn, 405 Carlton Avenue. And, uh, I settled up 00:22:00my account, packed up my stuff, and I grabbed a train to Philly. And before--I got off at Old Broad Street Station, and, uh, instead of going straight home, I went to City Hall to see what civil service jobs were open. The fire department [hand clap] bingo--up to the seventh floor, I had business, and, yeah, I noticed something even, even then, in my own town. Uh, on my application, the, uh, clerk put a "C", a fast "C" down there, saying you--to, to, uh, make the distinction between white and colored. I saw that. I didn't say anything. But I wanted to take the examination. So I took the examination. And I had been a fire buff all my life, I--since I was a kid--about ten. And, uh, I knew, I knew 00:23:00all of the signals and everything before I went in, and I knew quite a bit about the fire department. So, uh, they--the examination came up, and I took it, and I was twenty-one on the original list--and, I figured, but I was all--I just missed it--[laughs]--, missed being, uh, skipped, if it hadn't been for this boy in--what's his name? Howard Graham, yeah. I asked Howard about it, and he, uh, he's the one that took me in to R. R. Wright.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Got the letter off, and sealed it. I took it on up to the mayor.

HARDY: Can you tell me a little bit about your family background?

MARSHALL: Uh, yeah, mother and father? My dad worked for, um, well, he, he was from the western shore of Maryland. My mother was in the eastern shore of Maryland. And, uh, they, uh, they came to Germantown, uh, the latter part of the 19th century. And, uh, they were living at 457 Center Street. You never heard of it?

HARDY: Unh-uh.

MARSHALL: It's now Rittenhouse Street.

HARDY: Ah!

MARSHALL: You'd have heard of Rittenhouse Street. And, uh, that's where I was born. And, uh, Dad, uh, being a country boy, he, um, uh, naturally, uh, knew a lot about horses, so he, uh, got a job, uh, working for, uh, a man who had a 00:25:00city contract for, uh, garbage. And, uh, he worked that for a while, and then he, uh, got a stable job. And he got a--h--he was always improving himself, getting a little more money. The first job paid him seven dollars and fifty cents a week. He'd get paid tw--uh, twice a, twice a month, $15 every two weeks. And, uh, then he got a job with Ed--Edward Atkins, who was a, uh, big contractor and builder here in the city--he lived: 309 High Street. And, uh, he was there for a number of years. And then he got a better job--he worked with F.H. Strawbridge's as a coachman, and eventually, coachman chauffeur. He put 00:26:00about forty years there with F.H. Strawbridge. It's School Lane , northwest corner of School Lane and Wissahickon Avenue. It's the location of the, uh, Alden Park Manor now, Cambridge and the [?]. And I lived there for ten years as a kid, up to the time I went in the fire department. And, uh, best ten years of my life.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Beautiful. I had four boys and one girl, and I was just one of the family over there. Uh, great life. Twenty-seven acres--had no occasion to go out in the street and play --[Hardy laughs] --In winter time, we had, we had, uh, see--one, two, three--one, two, three--four--four--two, three--three big fields for his horses, like that, you know. And, uh, we used to sled down 00:27:00there--us--we wanted to go out in the street. We could --sled down West Second Avenue --the start of school- West Second Avenue. Go our way down to Rittenhouse Street.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Oh, boy! It was like that, you know. It was a lot of fun, as far as sledding was concerned. But we had bicycles, and we had all our--the athletic equipment necessary. I never had to buy a skate or a baseball glove or a bike or anything like that. We had them all--wagons. We lived.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: So, uh, then after the kids were all grown and married, then they sold that to, uh, sold that place to, uh, people who developed the Alden Park Manor, in Cambridge and the [?]. And we went up, uh, Cleveland[?] and Westmoreland Avenue, small place, only four acres.

HARDY: --[laughs]--Because you could do it back then, right?

MARSHALL: Yeah. So that's where Dad, uh, spent his, the rest of his life. And he got sick up there, and--he finally died, back in '52, 1952.

HARDY: So you are, then, born and bred Germantown.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Yeah, I'm one of the O. P.s.

HARDY: --[laughs]--Oh.

MARSHALL: Yeah, I live in the same ward I was born in.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: I'm quite provincial, incidentally. Never been anywhere, because I tell everybody, I've never been out of my backyard yet.

HARDY: Uh-hm. Well, it seems to have agreed with you, right?

MARSHALL: Well, uh, yeah. I, uh, kind of like the idea, which, of being able to--I think it's very educating if you can travel. And, uh, I've been on a pension from the fire department since '46, February 13, '46. What goes out of 00:29:00the jobs--I had to build up my Social Security, which I did. I left the, uh, fire department, and I got a job as a fire fighter down at, uh, Quartermasters, Twentieth and Johnston--worked there for a while. And then from there to Pier 98. I put seven years down there as a security guard. And Philadelphia Colleges in Textiles and Science--put six years over there. I left there, I didn't, I didn't get another--I didn't bother working any more--steady job.

HARDY: Right. Well, let's get back to the, uh, fire department then, and--

MARSHALL: --yeah.

HARDY: --money.

MARSHALL: Yeah, that's the language I know.

HARDY: Uh, OK. Uh, got some good, useful background. Um, when you first came on, what percentage of, uh, Fire Company Eleven was black men? What percent 00:30:00white men?

MARSHALL: Uh, I was appointed in, um, 1923, October 1923. And, um, we had, uh--two, three, four --[whispering] eighteen, nineteen, twenty--when, when I was appointed, there were twenty, twenty men working --nine- no, nineteen men working, because, uh, we had one officer and ten men to a shift. Yeah.

HARDY: So by the time you were appointed, it was, what, all-black firemen, then?

MARSHALL: Yeah, with the exception of the, uh, captain, lieutenant, and the, 00:31:00uh, engineer. The engineer was the hand-me-down from the old horse-drawn days when they had, eh, horses--in the old steamer, you know?

HARDY: Umm-hmm.

MARSHALL: And, uh, I, I explained that in this book here. Um, and, eh, we even had segregation, believe it or not, back in 1923 within a firehouse. Engine Eleven was the only, only company where they had colored firemen. And, um, the engineer and the firemen were, uh, their bed, their bunk beds were taken out of 00:32:00the bunk room and put in the sitting room, which was on the second floor, front. And the officers, of course, had their office, and they slept in the, their, in their office. They had a bunk in their office. That, uh, wasn't, wasn't to be desired, but, uh, anyhow, any--the men didn't put up any objection. But, uh, we had a, an interesting, um, incident that occurred some years after I was appointed. Uh, the engineer of Engine One was being disciplined, and, uh, he was, eh, transferred to Engine Eleven as punishment. So, his bed, normally, 00:33:00would have been in the second floor front room. He wouldn't sleep in it. He says, "I'm sleeping with, beh, with the men in the bunk room." And that's where he slept. That was the beginning of the end of that.

HARDY: Hmm!

MARSHALL: Yeah, he was very determined about that. He was a good engineer. He was fast, oh, fshoo! He was, he was terrific.

HARDY: How did you men feel, um, when--in those early days, about serving under a white captain, and having the officers white, while the--

MARSHALL: No problem.

HARDY: No problem?

MARSHALL: No problem, because, uh, first of all, you couldn't--if the, uh, if Engine Eleven was made colored, and, uh, you couldn't just immediately promote one of those colored boys as a lieutenant or, or make them a captain. You had to, you had to have some experience. Being a firefighter is, is not child's 00:34:00play. You don't play kindergarten games in the fire department. Every move must be the right move, or a good move, because you're, you're, uh, men's lives, uh, have to be protected. And it's your job as an officer to see to it that that is carried out. A good officer--and I worked under a couple during my time, uh, where his line was--that officer was right there with the men. Now, uh, Charlie Gill, Charles A. Gill, was my first lieutenant, and, uh, the captain was Daniel Quillan , but, uh, Charlie Gill really broke me in the business. I 00:35:00made my first fire with him, and he looked after me, like, uh, a mother with her baby. He says, "You stick with me." And he would explain little things--it meant nothing to me, back in the early days, and, uh, that was his job. Never had a man hurt.

HARDY: Hmm. I know that by the mid-twenties, there, there was, um, the struggle had begun to get black men appointed as a lieutenant and captain in the fire department. Can you tell me a bit about that?

MARSHALL: Yeah. Well, uh, Jim Davis--he had, uh, been trying, uh, before I was appointed. He had taken the examination for lieutenant. And, uh, Jim had, uh, nineteen years and--nineteen, well, around things, he had nineteen years in the 00:36:00business when he, when he made lieutenant. And then, of course, I took nine examinations myself. I was skipped, uh, January the 1st, 1930…you got the machine on?

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Uh-oh.

HARDY: Yeah, it doesn't matter.

MARSHALL: Right, dammit.

HARDY: Well, it was some time in the thirties, right?

MARSHALL: Huh?

HARDY: It was some time in the thirties? The thing I'm really interested in, is in finding out how, uh, Company Eleven got its first, um, black lieutenant 00:37:00and captain.

MARSHALL: Oh. January 1st, 1931. Um, I'll always remember the name Peter C. Graham--was number seven on the list, and I was number twenty-eight. They had thirty-two vacancies for lieutenant throughout the fire department. So, Lemuel B. Schofield was the Director of Public Safety. I tell my wife--I says, "No, I'm not going to fight this thing, because if I do, I'll be blacklisted d I'll never get anywhere." I knew it was all politics. So, uh, I went to my 00:38:00battalion chief, and I told him, I says, "I'm twenty-eight on the list for lieutenant, as you know, and, uh, thirty-two vacancies." I says, "When they get down to me, I'd like to make it." "Oh, no, no, no, no, no! Can't do that! Can't do that! Can't have two lieutenants in one house." That same time, they had two lieutenants working a truck company up in the northeast--[laughs]--one was assigned, and one was detailed--assigned someplace else, maybe headquarters and detailed down there. But they had two lieutenants working. And, uh, I, um, I didn't like that so much, naturally. So I had no one to certify me, again. I was skipped, and, uh, I didn't make it until--when was it? 19--hmm--'43.

HARDY: Hmm! How did you, how did you feel about that, all those years?

MARSHALL: Oh, uh, disgusted. I had one thought in mind: getting my twenty years in and getting the hell out. That's the only thing I could remember. Why? I wanted to do that: get my twenty years in, and get out. And that's exactly what I did.

HARDY: How'd the other men feel?

MARSHALL: Well, they took it philosophically. They, um, Pete was made, made lieutenant, and, uh, he stayed right there. I got that in the book. And, uh, later on, he was made a provisional captain, had an examination, and he was so far down on the list that they couldn't reach him. So, S. Davis Wilson, who was 00:40:00the mayor, and his main supporter--Pete's main supporter, uh, made him captain of the fire training school. He just reported up there every day when they had a class, and didn't do a damn thing--[Hardy laughs]--that's all.

HARDY: Was he the first black, uh, fire captain, then? And that didn't come until the mid-thirties?

MARSHALL: Uh, uh, thirty-'31, he was made a lieutenant. And, uh, the, then, um--

HARDY: --did he, uh, make it on merit? Or did he have a better, better certification behind him --[laughs]--than some others?

MARSHALL: Well, his, his, his political influence was so strong that they wouldn't make me--at the same time. And they had vacancies. They had 00:41:00thirty-two vacancies. But, uh, you see, there was so much discrimination in the, in the fire department at that time, that, when I went to my battalion chief--Battalion Chief Simmler, William Simmler was his name--and, uh, he says, "Oh, no, no, no, no! Can't do that." And I, was, "Why, why, why? Why not?" Because we had a truck company with two lieutenants in it. They could've done it, no problem--could sign me, uh, to headquarters and detail me down at Engine Eleven. It's done all the time.

HARDY: But not with, uh, black firemen.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

HARDY: Or not with black policemen.

MARSHALL: Yeah. So I was the hell of it. So, I said, well, too much time to go. When I get my twenty in, I'll quit--

HARDY: --um-hm--

MARSHALL: --which I did.

HARDY: How was, uh, Company Eleven treated by the other companies in the fire department?

MARSHALL: High respected. You know why? They did a terrific job. I don't say 00:42:00it because I was, um, a member, but I have seen battalion chiefs--one in particular --uh, we were very fast, like, too fast. These boys today, well, it's different today. We never locked our doors when we out, and the neighborhood took care of us. They would close the doors, and if, and maybe some second alarmer would just hang around there until we'd come back. Or if in the wintertime, there'd be watchmen, would come in the firehouse if we were out and take care of the heater--put some more coal on it, take care of everything. But today, the boys can't do that, been too many robberies.

HARDY: Right.

MARSHALL: So when they pull out, on, beyond the, uh, the doors, then one man has to close the doors and lock up. Then they go. Well, it was--getting back 00:43:00to your question, how we were treated. We were treated fine. No problems, no problems. Because, you know, firefighting, firefighting is a very dangerous game, and, uh, you don't play when the fire's going out. That's all business. I've seen too many men hurt unnecessarily. I, I describe some in here. I couldn't even give the right names of fire--we had, we had a crash down at Fourth and Warden. And, I was only a hoseman then. That was in June 1943, yeah, didn't have to happen.

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: I'm rambling now.

HARDY: OK. The, um, during the 1920s, then, there was --you are a fireman in, 00:44:00in Company Eleven, weren't discriminated against or snubbed by the firemen in other, uh, companies in the city?

MARSHALL: Oh, no, not on the fireground.

HARDY: OK. How about off the fireground?

MARSHALL: Oh, well, the--we knew them. We'd speak to them, or they knew us. They'd speak to us. No difference. We used to go to picnics every year, and we'd have, have a ball. The union, um, Local 22 would have a picnic every year for firemen. Oh, yeah, I used to, I used to attend them all. I was a, um, uh, the, um, what do you call it? Steward--for Engine Eleven.

HARDY: Ah.

MARSHALL: I used to collect all the dues, and I never missed a meeting. I was, 00:45:00uh, there--at one time, the boys, uh, would not attend meetings, white or colored. We were down to, uh, less than 100 members throughout the, uh, the department, members of Local 22. And, uh, I would always go. Engine Eleven was 100 percent all the time, because I'd got their money-

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: - and I would take it up and turn it in.

HARDY: When was this? Was this in the twenties, or--

MARSHALL: --uh, yeah--

HARDY: --when was it?--

MARSHALL: --um, let's see. Hmm, no, I would say, '32?

HARDY: Yeah, I was going to say, I didn't think that union came in--

MARSHALL: --no, no, that's right--

HARDY: I think I'd be interested in finding out, is, um, did the white fire 00:46:00companies treat fires in black neighborhoods any different than they did in the white neighborhoods?

MARSHALL: Not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledge, no. All the firemen, back in those days, I'm telling you, they were--the department consisted mostly of, uh, truck drivers, stevedores, um, ex-servicemen, salesmen. Once in a while, you'd run across a student or a college graduate, once in a while. We had one. He graduated from, uh, West Virginia State. He made captain. He went on--he, he died a couple of years ago. And, uh, I say--and, and one-one chap, um, was, 00:47:00uh, a student, and, uh, he--I think he graduated as a pharmacist. And, uh, what is his name? George Lindsey. And, uh, he didn't stay in very long. From, uh--

HARDY: --when did he come on?--

MARSHALL: Hmm?

HARDY: He came on--

MARSHALL: --in 1919--

HARDY: --in 1919, correct?--

MARSHALL: --1919, yeah. And he, uh, stayed just about a year. Yeah, he was appointed, uh, eight month, eight--1919, and he went on pension the ninth month, the first of 1920. He didn't stay long. He opened up his, uh, his drug store.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: No, uh, that sort of thing would not have been tolerated, um, during 00:48:00my time in the department, no.

HARDY: Because I know, around the turn of the century, in West Philadelphia, for instance, there were some smaller shanty towns. And, in one particular case, uh, a fire broke out, and the fire, local fire company, you know--obviously in sight, flat area, no trees --um, they waited until the, the area burned down before showing up, because, of course, that way, the land was cleared, and it made it easier for development.

MARSHALL: --that would be--

HARDY: A--it was a little, black, shanty town up there--

MARSHALL: --right--

HARDY: --in the, the, the fields of West Philadelphia.

MARSHALL: --yeah, I'm a son-of-a-gun!--

HARDY: So I was wondering, you know, whether the incentive to go in and fight a, a fire in a, in a black neighborhood in south Philadelphia would have been less for some, you know, Vare Irish firemen than, than if it were, uh, in an Irish neighborhood.

MARSHALL: No, I worked in the First Battalion, and the First Battalion, uh, 00:49:00included, uh, well, everything from, say, um, our first alarm district was, uh, 8 and Locust [8 and Spruce, 49, Second-- Spruce Street, down to about, uh, Fitzwater, Catharine, and, uh, west to Broad. And, uh, east to about Eighth or Ninth Street.

HARDY: That was the area covered by--

MARSHALL: --Engine Eleven--

HARDY: --Engine Eleven?

MARSHALL: Yeah, it was local. That's on a local, uh, uh, uh, local district. Of course, the box alarm, then we w--it--the box alarm is different, where 00:50:00you're not first in. You could be fourth or fifth in.

HARDY: Right.

MARSHALL: And then, of course, river to river, second alarm. And then we used to hit, um, Center City and the high value, or, uh, mercantile district. I refer to it as that--mercantile district, which it was, or the high value district. In other words, um, Market Street, Chestnut, Walnut, um, down, uh, Diamond Row. We had a couple of good jobs down in that neighborhood, too.

HARDY: [Laughs]--Hmm. Referring back to politics, during the twenties, um, were--was it expected of the firemen in Company Eleven to perform any services, political services?

MARSHALL: Like contributions?

HARDY: Contributions, working the war--um, the district?

MARSHALL: No.

HARDY: Nothing like that?

MARSHALL: No.

HARDY: Because I know, the police did in the twenties. Many policemen did.

MARSHALL: Not supposed to. You weren't supposed to.

HARDY: You weren't supposed to --

MARSHALL: --no --

HARDY: but, but you did. I mean, the, the,

MARSHALL: --what's the --

HARDY: --the policemen did.

MARSHALL: Yeah, we're not, well, but they weren't supposed to. Same way with firemen. Uh, now, uh, making a contribution to, uh, uh, to your, uh, uh, ward headquarters, um. No one would admit it, but I guess we all did. You know, we weren't supposed to, supposed to be out of politics, supposed to be, because we had civil service, you know--

HARDY: What would happen if you didn't make your contribution? Was there any repercussions?

MARSHALL: Uh, not that you could print. Not that you could print. But don't 00:52:00go, don't, uh, don't come to me and ask me, uh, to, uh, uh, back you for a promotion, or back you for a transfer. Don't do that, because you didn't pay your dues.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Just that simple.

HARDY: Right. Did you all have any, um, any contact with the, the black policemen during the twenties who were, I mean, fighting, you know, at the same time, also seeking promotions, and to increase their numbers, and the--it seemed there would've been some common interest between the two groups.

MARSHALL: There should've been, but there wasn't. And, to my knowledge, a black, uh, a colored organization of the policemen, a colored organization of the firemen, no, we didn't, we didn't have that.

HARDY: Did any politicians, um, represent your interests, like G. Edward Dickerson, or Ed Henry, or--

MARSHALL: Uh, well, on an individual basis, I would, I would say yes to that, 00:53:00because Ed Henry was a, um, uh, when he was appointed a magistrate, he was the--and for a number of years thereafter, he was the only magistrate that was a qualified lawyer. The others were just stuck in those jobs because of their political backing. And Ed had to make it talk, aww. Uh, he, he--it was his--party to listen to him. He presented me with my watch when I got twenty years in at the fire department. Hopefully, he didn't rattle it right off of him. But none stopped, you know what I mean? Presented me with --my, my watch. That's what we used to give the boys when we got twenty years in: give them watches, all in--um, inscribed on the back, what it was all about, the dates of your entering, and the date you got your twenty years in and all that sort of 00:54:00stuff. I made a lot of contributions before they reached me, because I was the twenty-second colored fireman appointed, twenty-second. I'm looking for something in here, dammit, and I can't find it. And you would be interested in it.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Oh, yeah, more questions.

HARDY: OK, while you--just, a little change of, uh, topic for me. What can you tell me about Amos Scott?

MARSHALL: Colored magistrate and, uh, I, uh, knew him when I saw him. I had no contact with him. But, um, I think he was the first colored magistrate. Yeah, Amos Scott, lived on Christian Street, on the south side. Yeah, I saw his house once. I don't know why I went there for, but I was there. Uh, he was, uh, old 00:55:00line politician. There's no two ways about that. Powerful man.

HARDY: My impression was that he was the, the kingmaker. Um, he was the most powerful black politician during the early twenties.

MARSHALL: I would, I, I, I would, would not disagree with you on that, because it took a heck of a lot of power, political power, uh, to be made a magistrate.

HARDY: You have any recollection of the '21 election--

MARSHALL: No--

HARDY: --when he was, uh--

MARSHALL: --no. No, I wasn't, I wasn't in the department until '23, because I, I, I only remember Amos Scott from that time on.

HARDY: Right. Oh, you were up in Brooklyn for a couple of years--

MARSHALL: --yeah--

HARDY: I going to school, right?

MARSHALL: --was going to school--

HARDY: Hmm. Um, another thing I'd like to ask you about is, uh, you were referring to the--during the teens and early twenties, mid-twenties, including '23, again, you have the migration of tens of thousands of southerners up to 00:56:00Philadelphia. How did they change the city, back during that early period?

MARSHALL: I don't, I-- frankly, I don't know I'm capable of giving an intelligent answer on that, because, uh, my mother and father did the same damn thing.

HARDY: Right.

MARSHALL: Back in the latter part of the, uh, 19th century. And, um, uh--

HARDY: Did you all talk about, the, you know, all these, these newcomers coming up, and what they were doing, and what they want?

MARSHALL: No, I don't--and I--listen, I, I was a--in 1919, naturally, I was, uh, uh, eighteen years old. And, uh, but I didn't, I didn't, didn't feel any different toward the people. And I didn't, I don't know, I, um, I don't 00:57:00visualize it as an influx of people--

HARDY: Hmm--

MARSHALL: --settling in a certain area. Um, stragglers, now and then, you know what I mean? You'd, you'd meet people. Uh, I don't know. My mother came from a large family. There was eighteen in that family. And I think, oh, practically, all of them, eventually, came to Philadelphia. Same with my dad. And, uh, but then when they arrived, I don't--I didn't see any difference.

HARDY: Hmm. So you didn't have a real awareness of, of them?

MARSHALL: No, I wasn't aware of it. To tell you the truth, that's them--no, it wasn't.

HARDY: Good. The other thing, um, along different lines was, I guess Engine Eleven was right next to the Standard.

MARSHALL: No.

HARDY: Pretty close.

MARSHALL: It was close--same side of the street.

HARDY: Right. Can you tell me anything about, uh, John T. Gibson, or the 00:58:00Standard Theatre?

MARSHALL: Well, he was a, um, he was a businessman--I'll tell you that. He had a lot of foresight, apparently, because, uh, who would have done what he did? Where'd he get the money? I don't know. But, uh, he was all right, good man. I remember him pretty well. Never had any dealings with him. In uniform, we could, uh, walk in and out of the Standard any old time, you know what I mean?

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Show's on, just walk in. Same way with the Royal, up there in--the other side of Broad Street, 15 South, the Royal Theater. And, uh, the, uh, W--Wax and his father owned the Royal, and young Wax used to come to the firehouse an awful lot, spent an awful lot of time there, day or night. I don't 00:59:00know. He sort of seemed to like us.

HARDY: These were Jewish--

MARSHALL: --yeah--

HARDY: --folks, right?

MARSHALL: Yeah. Yeah, I got along swell with--my God, I'm sorry I've forgotten his first name, dammit.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: But he and I used to have some good times together.

HARDY: Um, that--during the twenties, that, that whole Eleventh and South Street area was really pretty active, a lot of night life.

MARSHALL: Yes, it was.

HARDY: Right?

MARSHALL: Yeah.

HARDY: Can you tell me a little bit about that?

MARSHALL: Uh, well, um, South Street, Bainbridge Street, Rodman Street, Kater Street--you would find juice hou--uh, juice joints and whore houses. Uh, every other house, you know? And, uh, pimps galore. They used to frequent, uh, that 01:00:00area, South Street. It was quite an excursion for a person living in Germantown, uh, to go down to South Street, you know what I mean? But, uh, to me, it was a beautiful street--[Hardy laughs]--because I, I, I, I worked down there. It was 84 hours a week--practically lived there. We only had two platoons back in those days. And, uh, we used to have a lot of fun. And all the neighbors knew us, treated us swell, royal. I can remember, I can remember times when, uh, good weather, we would be, uh, sitting out on the, on the bench, in front of the firehouse, and some neighbor would, a neighbor would be passing by, with a basket on her arm, and say, "I'm going to the store. You want 01:01:00anything?" And if you said yes, "What is it?" She'd get it. Give it to you, no charge.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: But, uh, the, uh, as I say in this book, the neighbors--the merchants, rather--the merchants in that block between Tenth and Eleventh, uh, relied upon Engine Eleven for many things. Protection, for one thing. We used to look after their kids. I mentioned that in the book. I can name, I can name, uh, um, a lawyer, two lawyers, a doctor, a schoolteacher--kids that we used to, you know, so high. We saw them grow up and, um, we used to look after 01:02:00them. We, we had no problems down there in, in, in, in Engine Eleven. Directly across the street was a pawn shop. And, um, uh, he'd do anything for us, anything. Chinese restaurant was directly across the street. Many a times, I would spend fifteen cents for a fish sandwich, you know? I'd go back in the firehouse and get a soda. We had a canteen. We'd lunch.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Fifteen cents for a sandwich, whole fish--[laughs]--

HARDY: Hmm. Any characters, or stories, stand out in your mind from, uh, those, those early days? You know, there must have been with--I, I've read, um, in 1921, Hampy Moore hired a black woman who had worked for the courts, who went 01:03:00from one house to another, um, recording names, prices, conversations, you know, special vice investigator. And, uh, I've read through those things, and, you know, there seem to have been some really fascinating characters and--

MARSHALL: Who in the world could that have been? I never heard that one before.

HARDY: Yeah?

MARSHALL: Hampy Moore?

HARDY: Hampy Moore hired a, um, he got in a big fight with Charlie Hall. And he said, he'd accused Charlie Hall of being in control of all the vice in the 7th Ward--[Marshall laughs]--and Charl--and, and Moore, um, uh, Charlie Hall sued him, and he had to retract it. This, this was taking place, this went, started in '21, went up into '23--

MARSHALL: --Well, I'm a son-of-a-gun!

HARDY: Yeah. It was in all the papers, and, and Hampy Moore had a black woman who was a stoolie, stool pigeon, going from one whorehouse, to chop suey joint, to speak easy, to another.

MARSHALL: Well, I told you. Every other house was a whorehouse, you could get, you know, juice or anything that you wanted. And Rodman Street, or Kater Street.

HARDY: Any character stand out? Any, uh, you know--

MARSHALL: --by, by name? No, no. Not by name, I'd, I'd only be guessing.

HARDY: Yeah?

MARSHALL: I might hook up with the wrong person. But, uh--

HARDY: No madams, or pimps, or, or pickpockets who uh?

MARSHALL: Well, uh, we had all of those. Number writers, uh, speak easy operators. And, um, Eleventh and South, there was a drug store, and that, at various times during the day or the week, would, there would be congregated, um, members of the, uh, various Italian mobs, gamblers, uh, taproom owners, and then 01:05:00the, uh, Columbia Avenue gang. It was all white. They used to, they used to come down and, and gather at Eleventh and South also.

HARDY: What were they doing on South Street?

MARSHALL: Well, that's where the mob used to hang out, at Eleventh and South, various mobs. Oh, we had, um, I--we were working one night, when, uh, Pius Lanzetti--remember the Lanzetti boys?

HARDY: Um-hm.

MARSHALL: 'Was standing in the doorway, on the same side as the firehouse, between, uh, Alder Street and, uh, Clifton--he had a little, uh, the store was 01:06:00just a blind to cover up his operation. That Jew boy was, um, he had that, had that store, that building, and I guess it was gambling--I, I was never inside. But anyhow, Pius Lanzetti was standing in the doorway, and the--I happened to be up on the second floor that night, and--just up over the window--and, uh, Mike Slaven [?] and Lieutenant Richardson and a couple of other detectives were cruising by, and they saw Lanzetti standing in the doorway. So, apparently, he must've recognized them, too, because they went around the block, and they came cruising by again. And the second time, Lanzetti was prepared for them. Apparently, they must've stopped to question him, and he pulled out his gun, and 01:07:00he started firing. That's when Mike Slaven was shot. And, uh, they got a call in for reinforcements, and, uh, oh, South Street was loaded with, with uniform cops and plainclothes cops. They were yelling at each other. "I'm a cop, I'm a cop, I'm a cop." And the bullets were flying. And, um, we could, uh--

HARDY: Let me --

MARSHALL: No, that's all right.

HARDY: OK.

MARSHALL: So we, uh, I didn't mean to--that was prior to 1937, uh, I was exas--must say prior to 1937. But anyhow, the bullets were--you could hear, you could actually hear them singing, up Alder Street. And, uh, of course, we didn't make ourselves visible. But that was hell for, for a little while. 01:08:00Yeah, I knew Mike. Mike, uh, Mike Slaven, when he went on pension, he became, uh, attached to Judge McDevitt.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Judge McDevitt had him in his office. I don't know what he did, but he was there.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: I used to, I--Judge McDevitt and I were very close. He was a good friend of mine. And, uh, I never had to make an appointment to go in his office. He stopped me from making appointments.

HARDY: Hmm!

MARSHALL: He did. "You wanna come in and see me? Come on in! You don't have to make any appointment." And, uh, he could speak the King's English, too, when he got angry. --[both laugh]--

HARDY: I guess the Lanzettis took over the numbers racket from, uh, Forest White , right?

MARSHALL: I see you, you got your history on. I don't have mine. --[both laugh]-- But I know the Lanzettis. You know, incidentally, uh, they were all 01:09:00named after popes: Leo--

HARDY: Sort of appropriate, right? --[laughs]--

MARSHALL: --Pius Lanzetti. But the--they all got bumped off.

HARDY: Hmm. Did firemen play the numbers?

MARSHALL: Well, uh, officially no, of course not.

HARDY: Right, but--

MARSHALL: We wouldn't stoop to anything like that. --[Hardy laughs]-- Uh, oh brother.

HARDY: Who was the, who was the, the local banker down there?, Fa--Burwell , was it?

MARSHALL: I don't know.

HARDY: Frank Burwell, or--?

MARSHALL: No, you got me there. I, uh, I was only on the fringe of all that activity.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: You know what I mean? I'm trying to think, no, I wouldn't know, unh-uh. There might've, there might've been, uh, Burwell That's an old 01:10:00Philadelphian name, too. I've heard that an awful lot, maybe it's connected to what you have in mind, but, uh, I can't pinpoint it.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: But, uh, I was always under the impression that, uh, the bankers were Italians.

HARDY: That was, uh, apparently, late twenties, early thirties, the, uh, Lanzettis took over. Before that, the bankers--

MARSHALL: --you know what the Lanzetti--

HARDY: --were black men.

MARSHALL: --you know what the Lanzett --you know, you know why the Lanzettis, Lanzettis got, uh, bumped off? Because they wanted to cut the, uh, the percentage from, um, 600 to one, to, uh, to 500. I do remember that.

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Damn. The last one was found out on the main line somewhere in a, in a bag or something, and he, he recovered, and left this area, this section of the city. West coast, I think. But the others got bumped off.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: But they were fashion plates. You know, when they--you see them on 01:11:00the street, ugh! Ed, uh, one of those tie racketeers, uh, showed me his house one day. He said, uh, "It's just an ordinary row house." He says, uh, "You, you wouldn't think that I got $50,000 invested in that house." Renovation is, oh, inside, it must have been beautiful. I've never been inside of his house.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: But, uh, he was a perfect gentleman. Quiet-spoken, soft, you know. Ha-ha!

HARDY: As long as you don't have to do business with him, right? --[both laugh]-- Did you ever go to the Green Dragon Café--

MARSHALL: No.

HARDY: --up on Seventeenth Street?

MARSHALL: [whispers to self], No.

HARDY: Or, uh, Vic Hamilton's?

MARSHALL: Vic Hamilton--that name, oh, that rings a bell. I've heard that so many, many times. What did he do, really?

HARDY: Uh, he ran a saloon up there on Seventeenth Street. And he was Hampy 01:12:00Moore's, uh, man in the 7th Ward.

MARSHALL: My son-of-a-gun! Vic Hamilton, yeah. Jesus, crisps, I got--I'm sorry, I just can't recall all that stuff, but it's, I been out so damn long. But now, yeah, I used to hear the boys talk about Vic Hamilton. Uh, we had some very knowledgeable, uh, boys in the, in our company. Uh, I'm thinking about, uh, Harry Archer, Howard Graham: South Philadelphia boys, yeah. Oh, Harry would--he was--you should be talking with him. He could--he could really give you some information.

HARDY: He's still around?

MARSHALL: No, he's dead.

HARDY: Yeah?

MARSHALL: Yeah.

HARDY: What can you tell me about him?

MARSHALL: Harry?

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Post office man, and in the service. I think he was in the Army during the war. And, uh, he had, he came from a very good family. His father was, uh, a policeman. And, uh, he and, uh, um, what is the--we just got through talking about him? Leader of the 7th Ward?

HARDY: Charlie Hall.

MARSHALL: Charlie Hall, uh, they were, they were good buddies, good pals. And, uh, uh, Mr. Archer--he was a big man, beautiful teeth, had a lovely voice--it carried very well. And, um, he was assigned on the, uh, west, west entrance to City Hall. When you'd go through the courtyard, he'd be at the door there. 01:14:00And, uh, he knew everybody. And it's like, uh, like Charlie Hall. And, uh, he was very pleasant, nice man to talk to. And, uh, he had, um, he was the father of, uh, Harry and, uh, Wilbur, who was a doctor, and, uh, another boy. I was down at his house. He, he lived at Thirteenth and Carpenter, somewhere, yeah, Thirteenth and Carpenter. Met his wife--Harry's mother--and, uh, she's a big jolly woman, also. But, uh, Mr. Archer, he had plenty of political backing, plenty. Very nice man.

HARDY: Seventh Ward backing? Was he South Philadelphia?

MARSHALL: Well, it was, no, it wouldn't be the 7th Ward, because he isn't--Thirteenth and Carpenter, whatever ward that was.

HARDY: Thirteenth and Carpenter. That's just, uh--

MARSHALL: --I, I don't know--

HARDY: That's below the 30th, or below the 7th. Right, well, Seventh went to Broad, so--

MARSHALL: --uh, wait a minute. Thirteenth and Car--? It sounds like the 30th Ward. Couldn't it be a part of the 30th Ward?

HARDY: Thirtieth starts at Broad, doesn't it? And west of--

MARSHALL: --oh, west--

HARDY: West of Broad and south of, uh-

MARSHALL: --oh, I see what you mean --

HARDY: --Lombard--

MARSHALL: --yeah. So anyhow--

HARDY: --anyway, yeah--

MARSHALL: --that's, that's, well, that was our homestead--

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Thirteenth and Carpenter. Yeah, I would--I used to like to, um, meet Mr. Archer without going to the, uh, studio or courtyard, if I was out there for anything. But he, he was nice to talk to.

HARDY: Hmm. Where'd you do your banking, when you were a young fireman?

MARSHALL: Well, such as I had--[both laugh]--I never had very much. Unless 01:16:00you, unless you remember, we were only making $5 a day.

HARDY: It was com-- pretty good, compared to, uh, other jobs you could've had at the same time.

MARSHALL: Yeah, but, look. We were paid twice a month. It was a steady job. And during Hampy Moore's--I wanna say Hampy Moore's second term, I think it was--uh, the city was strapped for money. And, um, he persuaded --um, that's a good word to use--he persuaded the boys to, um, contribute four days' pay a month--that was two days' pay each pay period--for, let's see, for--now, wait a 01:17:00minute. Did I say two days? No, three days' pay. It was six days a month, for four months, which is twenty-four days, and at a $6 a day, it was $144 we never got back.

HARDY: Hmm. I think I heard that.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

HARDY: Yeah, it was during the Depression.

MARSHALL: Yeah, 1932.

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

HARDY: So where'd you do your banking in the Twenties? Or did you? Did you, uh, have a bank?

MARSHALL: I think I--

HARDY: --did you use a bank?

MARSHALL: Yeah. I had a little bank account at, um, Citizens and Southern, at, uh, Nineteenth and South. And, um, our family bank was always, uh, Germantown Savings at, uh, School Lane and Germantown Avenue. So, automatically, I fell 01:18:00into that, because my mother and father ahead of me, banked there. My mother was very thrifty. She tells me, she told me a story. We were living at 457, uh, East Rittenhouse Street, where I was born. And she would walk from there to, uh, School Lane and, uh, Germantown Avenue, to deposit $2, and walk back home. I asked my father one day, I said, uh, "Dad, when you were making, uh, $15 every two weeks, uh, how much did it cost, how much did the food cost for the three of us?" And he said, uh, "$2.15," just like you would say his name. $2.15, and that $2.15 was tip money that he would get when he was lifting 01:19:00garbage or trash from stores, like, they'd give you 15 cents or 25 cents to clean out their cellar, you know, of, uh, uh, spoiled fruit and produce. And, uh, he said, "I used to always keep that money in my tobacco pouch."

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Well, he liked to smoke a pipe. So I said, "$2.15?" He says, "Yeah." She said, "I don't know how you did it." Buy their staples and all that sort of thing. And, but they, they saved money. But he was a farmer at heart. Before he died, he, um, he bought a farm down in, down in Maryland. In fact, he wound up with, uh, one, two, three of them, three farms down in Maryland. How they saved up money up? I don't know.

HARDY: Hmm. There seems to have been a real emphasis, during the, you know, the, the early decades of the century, on thrift and on encouraging--particularly the southerners who were arriving in the city, to save their money, to use a bank--

MARSHALL: --um-hm.

HARDY: --to buy black--

MARSHALL: --yeah--

HARDY: --you know, to--instead of going to the white merchants--

MARSHALL: --sure--

HARDY: --to, to, to, um, encourage and support the black businesses in the city.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Yeah.

HARDY: Do you remember any of that? Do you remember any, any of that movement during the, the twenties, to, to buy black, or to--you mentioned, the, the, the group that led that whole movement, I guess, was, uh, Major Wright down there, at Citizens and Southern.

MARSHALL: Well, he was a good role model, uh, R. R. Wright Sr. He used to--he was a brilliant man, and, uh, he, he started that bank down there, Citizens and 01:21:00Southern. And this--he, he was such a good politician that, uh, the, uh, the city of Philadelphia used their bank as their depository.

HARDY: That was a real coup.

MARSHALL: Yeah, I thought, I thought so. Back in those days, I really did. I said as much. Jesus Christ, take your hat off to that man. Uh, and, um, R. R. Wright Jr.--he was, uh, he was a, he was a terrific politician, I, I thought. He could get, he could get anything he wanted, especially Hampy Moore. He and Hampy were just like that.

HARDY: You know what happened to R. R. Jr.?

MARSHALL: He died.

HARDY: Well, I mean, when, with Hampy Moore? Hampy, uh, Hampy, I think, initially wanted, uh, G. Edward Dickerson to be his chief lieutenant in the 01:22:00black community.

MARSHALL: Oh, I see.

HARDY: But Dickerson got angry, because, uh, Hampy wouldn't give him the appointment he wanted. And, uh--

MARSHALL: --oh--

HARDY: --Wright was gonna be made, um, a director of the new Department of Public Welfare.

MARSHALL: Um-hm.

HARDY: And, uh, this was the time when Moore and Charlie Hall were fighting, and Hall prevented Wright's appointment. And, uh, I guess in '23? '22, '23--

MARSHALL: Son of a gun.

HARDY: --drove him out, yeah. Finally, finally squashed it, and Wright never got his appointment. After that, he left the city for a while--

MARSHALL: Yeah--

HARDY: --just to, uh, just to cool out.

MARSHALL: I'd be darned. I didn't know that.

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: Hmm!

HARDY: Charlie Hall beat him down. That, that--the, the thing that, that, uh, tipped the scales was, when they tore down Hell's Half Acre, remember that down on, uh, Lombard and Eleventh? Between Rodman, where the Seger Playground is now.

MARSHALL: Yeah.

HARDY: A big fight over what they were gonna name it. Charlie Hall wanted it 01:23:00called Seger Playground, and Hampy Moore and Wright wanted to call it the Phillis Wheatley.

MARSHALL: Well, it, it's Seger.

HARDY: It's Seger.

MARSHALL: Right.

HARDY: Charlie Hall won.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah. I don't see why he wouldn't win. It's his ward-- [Hardy laughs]-- you know?

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: And, uh, Charlie Hall. He, he had a lot of drive. He--I--he was a power man, no question about that, oof! Yes, he was, Charlie Hall. I, uh, I--there were people, there were people, uh, living in the 7th Ward, who were very close to Charlie Hall and could, uh, they could go to, go to Charlie Hall and get most anything. Really.

HARDY: You remember a guy named Buddy Johnson down there? Committeeman?

MARSHALL: No. I should.

HARDY: Well, yeah, no one I've spoken to has been able to recall him yet. But he's one of the fellows who appears in these, uh, special vice reports from '21.

MARSHALL: No kidding!

HARDY: Yeah. And I've yet to track someone down who could tell me anything about Buddy Johnson.

MARSHALL: I knew a cop by the name of Johnson, who worked out of the, uh, Seventh and Carpenter. But that wouldn't be him, because he, he was cop.

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: And this --

HARDY: --Buddy was a constable for a while--

MARSHALL: Oh.

HARDY: Um, real womanizer, heavy drinker.

MARSHALL: Um-hm.

HARDY: Sounded like a real street character, He must have--

MARSHALL: --yeah, he must, he must've been, when you named those things. He had to be! Hmm.

HARDY: He was--he brought in the vote, from the, the whorehouses--

MARSHALL: --yeah, yeah--

HARDY: --and, like, the sporting class.

MARSHALL: Right. Yeah, some of the, some of those whores were, uh, could get 01:25:00anything they wanted from, uh, Charlie Hall, too. [telephone rings] He took care of 'em. Joey says that Pete's working both, oh! --[both laugh]--Pete's working.

[BREAK IN RECORDING]

HARDY: Well, that's, that's what--

MARSHALL: --oh, here, here. I've got one of these for you--

HARDY: Oh, terrific, great.

MARSHALL: Don't pay any attention--no, that's OK, because I, I changed this title up here--service time, uh, hash mark--

HARDY: --right--

MARSHALL: --pension. But, um, you see, now, some of the boys didn't go on pension. Um, this James Jenkins, you'll see that he went in at 1919, and, uh, left the department in 1935. So he didn't get his twenty in. He only had 01:26:00fifteen years. So I had to change that--

HARDY: --hmm--

MARSHALL: --the service time, pension.

HARDY: OK, great. Can you describe me a typical, south Philadelphia fire, back in the twenties?

MARSHALL: I can, yeah, I can, uh, wait a minute, uh, what--how about 1930?

HARDY: Um, twenties--it's my period.

MARSHALL: All right.

HARDY: Just what, what was the typical sort of fire that you fellas fought, when you first came on the force?

MARSHALL: Oh, well, they never changed. They never changed. Uh, you might get, um, you might get, uh, anything, from a false alarm, to a five or six bagger. And, uh, that would include, uh, the actual fires would include, uh, say, um, a mattress in a dwelling, or, uh, partameat [sic] or a building fire. 01:27:00It all, well, the apartment houses, um, buildings, all types of buildings, uh, automobiles--but, uh, you want me to just actually describe a, uh, particular fire, from start to finish?

HARDY: Yeah, can you d--that would be nice. Can you describe a rowhouse fire? You know, a fire in a house that was, either had tenants living in it, or, you know, a one-family typical south Philadelphia, um, residential fire.

MARSHALL: Um-hm. Sure. Uh, this one was on the north side of, um, let's see, 01:28:00South Street, Bainbridge, Fitzwater, Catherine, south--no, it was north side of, uh, north side of Catharine Street, between Eleventh and Twelfth, near Eleventh. Um, this happened in the, uh, in the early morning--no, I mean, early in the day, it was after eight o'clock, somewhere before noon. And, uh, we got on a local, and, uh, we went around there. And, uh, the people had--the tenants had removed their old Christmas tree. They had it out in the hallway. So, um, in some manner, I don't know how, there was a fire in the, um, in the, in the living room, the first floor, with the Christmas tree sitting out in the 01:29:00hallway. And, uh, it was dry, so naturally, it wouldn't be long before the flames in the, uh, living room reached the tree. And, uh, I'm just, I'm telling you this one, primarily because of the, uh, effect, and that the Christmas tree had on the fire. Um, it was a small fire. We handled it with a three-quarter inch chemical line. But--and I had, fortunately, that particular morning--I had the, uh, I had the pipe in my hand, and, uh, I went in the front door to turn to the living room where the fire was, when the Christmas tree, standing in the hallway, became ignited. And it was in the hallway, at the base of the stairway, leading to the second floor. Well, it took off like a, um, like a 01:30:00rocket. A terrible, loud swish, and it seemed to lift off the floor--[laughs]--and head for the stairs. Honestly, that safe I could've had. Of course, it ma--it meant nothing to me, because I just hit it a couple of times, you know, and that was that. And I went into the living room where the fire was, but that Christmas tree just went up, uh, it was all of the stuff on it was dry, naturally. I had it tied up, fortunately, and it did a fshoo--like that! Went up. And it was enough to, well, uh, to the uninitiated, it would've been frightening. And, uh, so much for that. The-the, fire. We con-contained the fire in the first floor living room. And, uh, uh, another job we had, where, uh, one of our boys was given a golden, presented a gold medal for making 01:31:00a rescue, rescued a baby. I was a new man, and, uh, it was down in south Philadelphia. It was in our local district, so I, I can't recall exactly where it was. However, the fire was in the room, in the second floor bedroom, second floor front bedroom. And, um, uh, I went up with a man who was appointed in 1919. He was on the pipe and I'm helping him on the pipe. He's supposed to be taking care of me because I was a new man. This was in the early, early twenties. And, uh, we were down on the floor, hitting all around with the line, and someone downstairs said there was a baby in that, um, uh, in the crib in the second floor front room. Well, we didn't hear that, but one of our other boys 01:32:00did. And he ran up the steps and jumped over a type of fire that you would like to, uh, write about.

HARDY: huh.

Marshall: It was a church fire, Fourth and Wharton Street.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Now, that was 1930, and, uh, of course, I'm a veteran by that time. And, uh, we went on a second alarm. It was a little after six o'clock in the morning. And, uh, I always had a peculiar habit. When a box would come in, if I knew the neighborhood, I wouldn't ask any questions about it. If I didn't know, I would ask some of the old-timers in there, what's down there? I'd like to, always like to know the type of building, or buildings, that were in that particular area. So, I didn't pay attention to Fourth and Wharton. I couldn't 01:33:00think of anything outstanding. Churches, I--it didn't cross my mind. So, anyhow, we--it was the second alarm, and ten minutes later, no, twelve minutes later--I just got it in the book--the, uh, box set off a second alarm and away we go. Then I wake up, and I'm beginning to think of various types of buildings and what's down there. So, we're about a square away. I look and see there's this church. So we, uh, reported in to the lieutenant who was in charge of the company, and, um, chief told us to get a water line and go up on the west balcony. So, uh, we yanked the hose off, connected it up to the, uh, pumper, and I took the pipe, threw it over my shoulder, and went up the steps to the second balcony, to west balcony. And, uh, walked down, about, uh, 01:34:00three-quarters of the length of the balcony, and eh, believe it or not, there was no smoke in our position than there is in this room right now. But down the altar, I could see that the, uh, the, there was smoke issuing from around the altar, and it was one company, Engine Ten, with a water line, playing on that. And I'm thinking, on the first alarm, there were four agent companies would go in that box. Now, where were the other three? They were, they were outside, playing water into the window, because the fire had engulfed, or invaded, the, uh, blind recesses, uh, around the altar, and gone up into the organ loft. See? Now, from the organ loft, it went back, traveling toward the front of the church, between the ceiling and the roof, or as the cockloft, see? It was the 01:35:00peaked roof, peaked slate roof, so I said to the lieutenant, uh, I'm thinking my, of my timing, that, uh, we waited ten minutes for the second to come in, see? And then it took us about, mm, four, maybe five minutes, to get down there and stretch a line in and get into that position. And the meantime, those three companies--because I saw what one company was doing--they couldn't get any water up there, because they were fighting the fire that was in the, uh, blind recesses under the altar. Cubic foot of water weigh sixty-two and a half pounds. There were no vertical supports, and nothing was dripping through. So I looked around. I said, "Lieutenant." I said, "This ceiling's not gonna hold." He didn't answer me. So, there were companies on the east balcony, a truck 01:36:00company and an engine company. They had a water line. Ceiling hadn't been opened up. They didn't open up that line. They had the water, so we had ours. So, uh, I said, uh, I turned around to the rest of the group, and I could've been reported for it, but he didn't report me. I said, "Everyone on Eleven's line, back it out!" See, because I knew that ceiling was not gonna hold. There were no vertical supports. And those companies, those three companies had been pouring water in on it, on that ceiling of the church for, uh, oh, I would say, fifteen minutes, anyhow, had to be, fifteen or twenty minutes, threw a lot of water in that time. So, we backed it out, and we no sooner got to the, uh, end of the balcony, when the--I didn't mention this in the book--I couldn't call any 01:37:00names, the chief engineer, Ross B. Davis, who was five horns, comes up the steps and he looks in, and he says, "Take that line back on that balcony, get a ceiling hook, and open up a hole in that ceiling. Play your line through that hole." And boy, oh boy, I became apprehensive, then. So, uh, truck along back, the boy got a, uh, ceiling hook, and, uh, he was in front of me, and he stood up on the, uh, on the, uh, pews. The little aisle way--it was just about that wide, so no trouble standing over the aisle with one foot on each pew. And he drew back, saying, "I hit the ceiling with the ceiling hook," and just as he drew back, it cracked down front. And I'm gonna tell you, whew, you don't--I, I wish I could describe it more vividly. Big sheets of that ceiling was cracking 01:38:00and falling and crashing. See, gradually traveling from the, uh, front --from the back of the church, toward the front. So, naturally, we dropped the line, and we started out, see, to get out on the landing, get away from it. And, um, the last man on the line, who was stretch again, was the first man going out. He got his feet hooked up in the line, and we just folded up like a deck of cards, like an accordion. And, you know, a beam, a beam broke loose, and it's coming down, and I thought it was going to hit me, but, just as it would have hit me, the man got his foot untangled and ran free, and the rest of them, of us 01:39:00did the same thing, with the result that it missed me and hit the man in back of me who had the ceiling hook, and knocked him under a pew, fortunately, saved his life.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: And all--he was piled up under, underneath the, a pile of plaster like that. We get back to the land, and we turn around and look--Jenkins is not there, see? So he's gotta be in that pile of stuff. So we go back in, we dig him out. And, uh, he was rushed to the hospital but he wasn't hurt, because it knocked him, it knocked him under the pew, see, it hit him, and he fell down under, under a pew. But the two companies on the east balcony [Sighs] that was a different story. I knew them all. One fellow lived up here in back of Engine 01:40:00Nine--he was Gallagher. He had a fractured skull, broken ribs, and a bind-up spine. His scalp was--he was holding his scalp on his head, with his hand like that, when they brought him out, blood was running all around his face. That was Huey Gallagher. Well, anyhow, they get him to the hospital and that's what they find out. The lieutenant, he got a ruptured larynx--beam hit him in his throat and ruptured his larynx. They were the only two that were hurt. The rest of them got clear. But it didn't have to happen. It didn't have to happen. If you had been a student of the game, it would not have happened. My lieutenant wasn't. I'm sorry to say, but Jim McCann, the lieutenant of Engine 01:41:00Twenty-two, same thing, because he stayed there, and nobody should've stayed there. There was no more smoke, and no--and their position, and our position, as is in this room right now. But down below, on the first floor, all the way forward, you could see a little smoke. It was, it was, it was being contained, uh, in the, in, in, under the altar and back of the altar, and that's where the smoke was, see? And then those three companies were on the outside, pouring tons of water in there, and it was just lying on that ceiling, which had no vertical supports to support it. Nothing to do for it, nothing for it to do but crash. It didn't have to happen.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: But I couldn't name any names, no.

HARDY: Right.

MARSHALL: Oh, boy.

HARDY: Yeah.

MARSHALL: That's--

HARDY: --that was one of the, uh, the more memorable fires.

MARSHALL: Yeah, you could say that again.

HARDY: Hmm.

MARSHALL: Yeah. Oh, boy. I, I never changed my attitude. But I, I'll tell 01:42:00you the truth. I had the shakes for three months after that.

HARDY: Did the fires change in the, the twenty years you were on the force? The type of fires you got in the early twenties--

MARSHALL: --well, that was--were there any change? No. Only, only in that the, um, progress made in various chemicals, uh, like, uh, plastics and, uh, various chemicals. Now, the, the, the boys today have that to contend with, much more than, than, um, we did. And, uh, that's the reason why, uh, they should pay more money and get chemical engineers, and electrical engineers, and mechanical engineers to join the fire department. New York is loaded with them. They can give you a lawyer, they can give you an accountant, they can give you any type of engineer you want in, in, in the New York Fire Department. I was 01:43:00over there in 1938 to see, uh, Battalion Chief Williams. He was the first colored fire man appointed, and, uh, he became a lieutenant, and a captain, and a battalion chief. And he stayed in the, in the Third Battalion, which was known as Hell's Kitchen. And, uh, he was made battalion chief in '38, so I went over to see him. And, uh, uh, the phone rang, and his aide answered the phone. And he says to, uh, Williams, uh, "oh, some truck company, truck so-and-so, they needs a man. They're short of a man." So, he just casually turned around, and he says, um, "Look on the personnel sheet and see who, who we have." Simple as that, see? But I do know. And incidentally, his aide was a graduate, uh, electrical engineer, from CCNY, young guy. Can you believe that? It's true.

HARDY: Hmm? New York is a--

MARSHALL: --yep.

HARDY: Yep.

MARSHALL: Uh, as I say, they had, they, they had lawyers and all sorts of, uh, tech engines, accountants, and what-have-you on there. As Williams said, the personnel sheets.

HARDY: Hmm. And you didn't have that sort of thing in Philadelphia?

MARSHALL: No, no, no, no. Uh, we do have a, um, I was reading about, following the, uh, uh, within the past week, in the Philadelphia fire department. His name is Donovan, just made lieutenant, uh, I think, last year. And, uh, he, uh, he has a masters degree in, um, psychology, so he'll go places. But we need, we 01:45:00need chemical engineers--

HARDY: --yeah.

MARSHALL: --all the, all the engineers. We need 'em. We really do.

HARDY: Hmm. One of the things, you know, that regularly makes the newspaper, the, the television newses the, uh stories of, some family who will have left a child at home, or kerosene heaters--

MARSHALL: --um-hm--

HARDY: --falling and spilling over-- you, a lot of these domestic fires in, you know, the, the poor neighborhoods in the cities.

MARSHALL: Um-hm.

HARDY: Did you have a lot of that in the, uh, in the--

MARSHALL: --yeah--

HARDY: --in your local district?

MARSHALL: Yes, we did. Uh, uh, excuse me [walking around]--

HARDY: --yeah--

MARSHALL: I think.

HARDY: Not related to fire at all, but, um, it has something to do with a, um, new radio series I might be working on, and that is, do you--can you recount any of the stories, that your bedtime stories, that your parents or aunts or uncles or babysitters told you when you were a child, that stood out in your memory, 01:46:00all these years?

MARSHALL: No.

HARDY: No? No bedtime stories, or--?

MARSHALL: --[laughs]--No, either Mom was working, or Dad was working. --[laughs]--

HARDY: Oh yeah? --[laughs]--

MARSHALL: One of those things. Yeah.

HARDY: OK, one other thing then, and that is, uh, we were talking about, uh, um, all the gambling dens and bordellos, and stuff in the area. Did you ever have a fire in a gambling den or a whorehouse, where you're all, like, running in and--?

MARSHALL: N--never. But, uh--

HARDY: --no?

MARSHALL: No. But we had a fire in a funeral parlor--

HARDY: --yeah?

MARSHALL: --[laughs]--with a, with a woman up on a cooling board. That was embarrassing to the, uh, the occupants of the, uh, funeral home.

HARDY: Um-hm.

MARSHALL: We were first in, too. Yeah, but it, eh, discolored the woman--[Hardy laughs]--the smoke did, you know? Yeah.

HARDY: Made more work for the cosmetician, I guess.

MARSHALL: Yeah, yeah. [Hardy laughs] Uh, that's about the only thing that I can think of.

HARDY: OK. Well, good. Let me, uh, let you go, then.

MARSHALL: Um-hm.

HARDY: We got some, uh-- [audio cut off]

[End of interview.]