00:00:00PETER: Okay.
GARDNER: ----------(??)----------
PETER: Okay, how about now?
GARDNER: Well, he came by the other day.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And he said you'd ----------(??) me because you'd read a tape--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --from the meeting on the--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --plaza. (laughs) And once I got thinking about that,
I was surprised at first.
PETER: Um-hm. Um-hm.
GARDNER: And the more I got to thinking about it, wondering who
had made the tape and why, and--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --where, you know--
PETER: --I don't know, well, the tape is, is in the oral
history collection. I have no idea who made it. I
guess I ought to find out. I was thinking I should
find out, you know, because that person was obviously there, and, and,
you know, trying to see what was going on, you know, um.
GARDNER: Yeah, I wondered whether the campus police had, had made it--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --or if it was someone who was just there and had
made it(??).
PETER: See, that's possible(??), you know. I, I really don't know,
I have to look into that.
GARDNER: The paranoia of those years comes back fairly quickly. (both
laugh)
PETER: Yeah.
GARDNER: There's a number of(??) ----------(??) somebody's ----------(??).
PETER: Um-hm. There is a tape. It's over in the
oral history collection. There's also one by Steve Bright, that's, that's
00:01:00pretty interesting. It's ----------(??)-----------. Uh, yeah. Anyway, okay.
First of all, just introductory information. This is an interview with,
uh, with Dr. Joseph Gardner, the English department. Uh, the subject
is the, uh, burning of the ROTC building back in 1970, the,
uh, campus upheavals here at U.K. in May of that year.
Today's date is November 14, and this interview is taking place on
the, uh, twelfth floor of Patterson Office Tower. Uh, Dr. Gardner,
what first brought you to U.K.? And what were you involved
with here at that time, the spring semester of 1970?
GARDNER: Well, what first brought me here was in the fall of
'66 when I came out of graduate school and--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --took a job here.
PETER: Um-hm. Teaching English?
00:02:00
GARDNER: Yes.
PETER: Um-hm. Um-hm. So, uh, there's, that what you grad(??),
what you were doing.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: Okay, okay. What was, what was campus like back then?
Was it, was it all that much different than now?
What were the concerns of the average student, say?
GARDNER: I think one, it was obviously different--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --than it is now.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And that there's difference(??) in that it was, it was much
more political than it is now.
PETER: Um-hm. A lot of, uh, seems to be, uh, a
lot of interest in football, that type of thing. I, I've
got, I've got a lot of reports from, from people that, uh,
it wasn't all that different. You know, that there's this, this
myth of the sixties, you know, of, of political activism, what not.
And, and, um, well, in fact, it was, it was a,
00:03:00a minority that was involved in it, and the majority of students
were doing as much as they are today(??).
GARDNER: Yeah. Well, I would put it this way.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: That I'm sure out of the, what, by, by ------------(??) in
'70, we were already twenty-four thousand or something like that.
PETER: Hm.
GARDNER: I, I presume.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And out of that number of students, I'm sure there were
a great many who were just as much into their fraternities, and
into football, and all this other things as there are now.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: The difference was that there was more a substantial presence of
students who were very politically aware, politically sophisticated, and certainly politically active.
And they were, I would say, you know, in total numbers,
00:04:00a ----------(??) minority. But they were a small minority, and certainly
in terms of their visibility on campus, and the atmosphere that they
lent to the campus in general.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And well, all the way down, down the line, well even
in the classroom.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And those students who were not politically active were certainly much
more politically aware. Then they couldn't help be because it was,
you know, visibly all--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --all around them.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: So that, uh, if something came up in classroom, for example--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --that had political overtones, the class would know what you were
talking about, and would be interested--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --in it, whereas now you could say something about the politics,
and most of them would just sort of, you know, sit and
look at you and say, you know, "What, what, gee, you know?"
PETER: Um-hm. Do you remember, um, the organizations that were involved
in more activity?
GARDNER: ----------(??)
PETER: The, the kinds of groups and the, the types of people
00:05:00that were involved.
GARDNER: No, I didn't know too much in, in organizational terms because,
you know, there, there were organizations. There was an SDS chapter,
and I'm sure there're various--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --other groups. But I had except for the McCarthy group
in '68--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --I ----------(??) and with, and also with some informal CO groups.
PETER: CO?
GARDNER: Conscientious objectors.
PETER: Oh. ----------(??). So, were you involved with, uh--
GARDNER: --uh, yes--
PETER: --McCarthy's campaign?
GARDNER: Yes.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: I had, except for those things, I had very little contact
with any official--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --or organized groups. And--
PETER: --somebody told me that--
GARDNER: --and most of the things were sort of, you know, ad
hoc, and.
PETER: Um-hm. At, uh, someone told me that there was, uh,
00:06:00at one time, in the late sixties there was a, uh, uh,
regional or a national SDS conference here.
GARDNER: Yeah, there was.
PETER: Do you remember anything about that?
GARDNER: I remember that it was here.
PETER: Um-hm. Right, right.
GARDNER: And that they, the university apparently got very uptight about it,
but that it was--
PETER: --right, well--
GARDNER: --very smooth, byzantine(??)--
PETER: --uh--
GARDNER: --meeting.
PETER: Do you remember anything about the, um, the SMT-, SMC?
Student Mobilization Committee?
GARDNER: They were the ones who organized the moratorium, right?
PETER: Um-hm. I'm not sure. I'm not sure; I think
so.
GARDNER: The two that, the term is familiar.
PETER: Um-hm. Um-hm. How about the--
GARDNER: --and my first response would be to associate them with a,
the moratorium--
PETER: --the moratorium earlier that semester--
GARDNER: --yeah--
PETER: --I think it was in April. What about the Lexington
Peace Council?
GARDNER: Oh yes, I was not a member of that, but I--
00:07:00
PETER: --um-hm. Uh--
GARDNER: --remember. But that was, that wasn't, that was more than
simply a campus group.
PETER: Um-hm. Um-hm.
GARDNER: And my sense of it was that it was as
much off campus, more or less a community group rather than a
primarily student group, although there were undoubtedly students involved in it.
I know there were quite a few faculty involved in it.
PETER: What percentage, say, of, of students do you think were, uh,
"protestors"?
GARDNER: It depends on how you define the term and where you--
PETER: --right, I suppose--
GARDNER: --draw, draw the line--
PETER: --there were, there were those that, that were conscious of the
activities and those were there--
GARDNER: --and that were sympathetic to the--
PETER: -- ----------(??)---------- --
GARDNER: --and there were those, you know, at length(??), you know,
if you take the number of people that went to jail, that
was what, about eight or twelve or so.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: The number of people who actively took part in some rally
00:08:00or demonstration or what have you that would be another number.
If you include those people who were.
PETER: Um-hm. Was, was there a division in students in any
sense though? Or were there just shades of, of those that
were, that were active? Or was there a, a non-active, let's
say, hostile for those that, that were?
GARDNER: Hm, yeah, I'm sure there were hostiles.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But my sense of it, my memory of it is that
after a while, it reached the point where those who were hostile
were fairly quiet--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --about it, unless they were directly confronted. It seemed to
me, well, if, if you take the, the night of the burning,
the, the, the building was trashed. And we marched over to
00:09:00the--
PETER: --complex--
GARDNER: --complex, there was some heckling and--
PETER: --hm, okay--
GARDNER: --carrying on.
PETER: Yeah, we'll get to that. Um, in the last days
of, of April of 1970, Nixon sent troops into Cambodia.
GARDNER: Um-hm.
PETER: And then the following Monday, I think it was May 4,
the Kent State killings occurred. Do you recall your impressions of,
of those two events when you first found out and how you
felt?
GARDNER: Oh, very clearly.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Especially the--
PETER: -- ----------(??)---------- --
GARDNER: --especially the, the Kent State.
PETER: The Kent State, okay.
GARDNER: The, you know(??), the Cambodia had an impact, but it was
somewhat blunted, because it just, you know, would seemed to be just,
you know, another thing in the--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --in this steady--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --progression.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: For me at least, Kent State was a fair shock, and,
00:10:00uh, a very strong one.
PETER: Hm. Do you remember where you were?
GARDNER: Yeah, I was home eating supper.
PETER: Um-hm. Evening news?
GARDNER: 6:30 news.
PETER: Right, right.
GARDNER: Right.
PETER: Um-hm. Yeah, many, I suppose. What was the general
reaction of campus to the, uh, the Kent State? Say, by,
by students, and, and faculty?
GARDNER: It's hard to say, it's hard to say for two reasons:
one that the distance in time.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And partly because my own reaction to it was, was so
intense.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But who, I would imagine that I wasn't alone in, well,
of course, the shock(??) of the, of the response.
00:11:00
PETER: Um-hm. Okay.
GARDNER: And, again, well, partly too, this, this process, as you
said before, of people being done with(??), you know, kind of brutalized
by just constant succession(??) of.
PETER: Um-hm. On, uh, on May 5, which was the day
after Kent State, there was a board of trustees meeting on the
eighteenth floor of Patterson Office Tower. Do you recall anything about
that?
GARDNER: Oh, yeah, all kinds of things.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: One is walking up, climbing by foot eighteen--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --floors.
PETER: Hm. Okay, well, let's back up, you were, there was
a rally at one o'clock, is that right?
GARDNER: There was a rally at one o'clock, and I'm, I was
trying to, to remember where that rally was. Was it out
here by the fountain?
PETER: I think so.
GARDNER: Yeah, that's, that's what my memory is.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And as far as I can recall, the notion of going
00:12:00up to the eighteenth floor of--well, it was after(??) the rally itself,
as I recall, this was not part of the plan. You
know, that there's gonna be a rally in the plaza and then
everyone goes to the eighteenth floor.
PETER: Right. Was the rally in any way connected with the
board meeting?
GARDNER: Oh.
PETER: I would imagine it was Kent State, but, uh.
GARDNER: Well, the, the, the rally that I remember as most directly
related to Kent State--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --was that night.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: The one down on the free speech area--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --right by the student--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --center, where they would carry coffins over the complex, and back
over on, down Euclid, and sat-in--
PETER: --was that--
GARDNER: --and so ----------(??)--
PETER: --was that rally, um, advertised? Was it, uh, were there
flyers out with it?
GARDNER: Oh, I don't remember, and I don't think so, because it
00:13:00seemed to me that it was, uh, again, a kind of ad
hoc thing in response--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --to the, to Kent State.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And when, when and how word got to campus about Kent
State, I'm not sure--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --when it, when it happened.
PETER: And assume the--
GARDNER: --but it, but it seemed to me, I'm trying to think
of how I would've known that there was gonna be that rally
down there.
PETER: Um-hm. Well. I can't imagine that it was truly
spontaneous.
GARDNER: No, but it was directly in response to the killings.
PETER: Um-hm. Um-hm.
GARDNER: And they're the same day. So--
PETER: --why--
GARDNER: --it was spontaneous in, in, in that that I mean--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --it wasn't that ----------(??) simply but a--
PETER: --a small gathering, it must've been--
GARDNER: --it wasn't something that had been planned--
00:14:00
PETER: --designated the spot(??), must've been--
GARDNER: --yeah--
PETER: --yeah--
GARDNER: --yeah. And, I guess I'll have to back up.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And, and I'm really, I'm not really sure about the exact
sequence.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: Do you remember what time, what time the, the shootings occurred?
PETER: Oh, gee. No, I don't. It was, uh, it
was Monday the, uh, fourth. And the, uh, the fountain rally
and, and the board of trustees meeting was the fifth, the next
day.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: And, uh, gee, Kent State was sometime in the day, you
know, I've, I've seen the photographs. It was light out--
GARDNER: -- -----------(??)--
PETER: --but other than that, uh, gee, I don't know if it
made the Leader or, or not, if it had the time to
make the afternoon paper.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: I kind of doubt it. You probably got it over(??),
uh, the evening news, I suppose.
GARDNER: Yeah, I, I, I was trying to think how I knew
about the, the rally here.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And the only thing that I can think, and this is
00:15:00more deduction than memory--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --is that some news about it must've come, must've hit campus
in the afternoon.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: And someone or other planned--
PETER: --so--
GARDNER: --the rally, and I must've known about it before I saw
the 6:30 news, and it must've been the 6:30 news that really
brought it home to me.
PETER: Um-hm. Let's back up to the--
GARDNER: --and--
PETER: --the fountain.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: And, um, the board of trustees. What, what happened
out by the fountain?
GARDNER: I don't remember that part of it very well.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: So, I presume nothing much really happened, probably some speeches, and--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --what have you.
PETER: Do you remember how many people there were?
GARDNER: Oh, I couldn't, I couldn't remember.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But then I, I remember that then the plan was to
go up to the eighteenth floor. And that the, it seemed
00:16:00to me that the room was set, settle(??) at the, that we
would not, that, that we, the university would not block us from
the eighteenth floor, but that we couldn't use the elevators.
PETER: Hm.
GARDNER: Because I know we walked up those stairs.
PETER: Hm.
GARDNER: And I know that there're a lot of people who were
pissed off about this, and they stood on the lobby pun-, punching
the elevator buttons until they overloaded the circuits--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --and blew out all the elevators.
PETER: Um-hm. That must've been something, uh, quite a few people
going up eighteen flights of stairs. (laughs) That's a long
climb.
GARDNER: It's a long ----------(??), yeah.
PETER: Yes.
GARDNER: And I would say that there must've been about two hundred
00:17:00people up there. The whole area on the eighteenth floor in
front of the elevators was jammed.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And it, it included(??) the area in front of the room
where the board of trustees were meeting--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --was also jammed. Because there was a, a big hassle
about all the news, that all wasn't safe for the trustees, and,
and what have you, and, and the campus cops were up there
pushing people around. But then in that big room on the
north side of the tower, there was a jam but there were
quite a few people. And ----------(??)---------- --
PETER: --and some people were allowed into the, the board of trustees
meeting.
GARDNER: Oh, that was one of the sort of spontaneous issues that
came out.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: About whether or not people would be allowed into the meeting.
00:18:00
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Let's see. My memory is there a petition, or something,
or a motion brought before the board of trustees?
PETER: I believe that the--
GARDNER: --I think that ----------(??)--
PETER: --the feeling of the group was that, uh, they wanted a,
uh, Cambodia, or rather Kent State condemned, uh, uh, a statement by
the university--
GARDNER: --university--
PETER: --condemning Kent State. And they wanted guns off campus--
GARDNER: --yeah--
PETER: --that was another--
GARDNER: --yeah--
PETER: --issue. I think those two resolutions--
GARDNER: --and it seemed to me--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --that the trustees agreed to let Steve Wright, or someone else,
one or two selected people in the--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --in the meeting room with them. And that this was
done, but there was, and the crowd of people who were all
by the elevators, and in that little foyer, and in the big
room, there were a whole bunch of people who wanted to get
in there.
PETER: Um-hm.
00:19:00
GARDNER: And I'm not--
PETER: --do you remember that said(??)--
GARDNER: --yes.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And I was in that little foyer for a little while,
and it just the caution(??) there got too much for me.
So I went around to the other room.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And so, I was in, in the other room when that,
well, at one point, the, as I recall, the campus police started
swinging with billy clubs--
PETER: --hm--
GARDNER: --around the front of the elevators.
PETER: Do you remember why?
GARDNER: Uh. I never understood quite why they--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --they did this. I, I think they, the reason that
they gave was that there was, that people were endangering the trustees,
or in part(??) that they felt threatened. I think that's probably
the real reason, they felt threatened.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And they were--
PETER: --but it was a large group--
GARDNER: -- ----------(??) the elevators up--
PETER: --by the, by the entrance--
GARDNER: --and, then there was the incident when, when, uh, Happy Chandler
hauled off and slugged somebody.
PETER: Right, right, right. He, uh, got a letter from J.
00:20:00Edgar Hoover congratulating him for that. Why was everyone, uh, by
the, by the, by the door? You say you walked around
because it was so tight.
GARDNER: Well, because I think there were, they wanted to get over
in, ----------(??) close to the meeting room as possible.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And as I recall, the issue, whether or not, you know,
the, the, the doors would stay open and the meeting would be
----------(??) was still(??).
PETER: Is any connection in your mind drawn between what happened, or,
say(??), the events on the eighteenth floor, and, and the rally later
on that night?
GARDNER: Well, the events on the eighteenth floor had an awful lot
of people upset.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: You know, and again, to get pummeled by a plastic ----------(??)----------.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Sort of an instant radicalization when suddenly the, you know, people
00:21:00started swinging bill-, billy clubs--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --actually you tend to.
PETER: Um-hm. Was, was the call for the evening rally, uh,
oh, was that made at that time?
GARDNER: I can't(??)--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: -- ----------(??). I really, really cannot.
PETER: Right, okay. Well, let's move on--
GARDNER: --but I know that one, that later--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --the, the administration, um, and the, and, and Nunn attempted to,
to draw a connection.
PETER: Hm.
GARDNER: That they, they used the--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --the, the events on the eighteenth floor as partial justification for
their calling in the troops.
PETER: Calling of the guard, yeah.
GARDNER: And this, this came up at the, at, at the trial.
PETER: Um-hm. So, the rally was, was held later on that
00:22:00evening, the, uh, the Kent State rally. And that was down
at the, uh, Student Center patio area, free speech area.
GARDNER: Yeah, um-hm.
PETER: Do you remember how many people were there? If you
don't remember(??), can you give me an approximation how many people, do
you remember the area that, that people covered?
GARDNER: As I recall, the only good glimp-, glimp-, glimpse I saw
of the crowd--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --was fairly early.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: It was when I made those remarks that you heard on
tape.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And then I would say that, that slope(??) there.
PETER: Up onto, uh, on, on the grass going up to Buell?
00:23:00
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: That, that total area was almost half-full.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: It did seem to me, however, when the walk started--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --that the crowd grew. And I think that some people
left immediately after that, and I think the ranks thinned out when
there was that brief sit-in at the intersection--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --up here, that, that thinned things also.
PETER: Hm.
GARDNER: So, I would say that by the time everyone had gathered
in front of Buell Armory, there was, oh, I guess about two
hundred people.
PETER: So, two hundred.
GARDNER: That's a guess(??).
00:24:00
PETER: Um-hm. Um, back to, back to the, uh, the beginnings
of the rally. Do you remember, do you remember what time
that was?
GARDNER: Oh, the night rally?
PETER: Um-hm. The, uh, say, at the Student Center, what time--
GARDNER: --at the Student Center, I would guess around 7:30.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: I don't know.
PETER: And there were, there were some symbolic Kent State coffins.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: Um.
GARDNER: And those were carried when we went over to the complex
and, and back around.
PETER: Right. Do you remember who talked at the, uh, the
beginning of the rally at the Student Center, besides yourself?
GARDNER: I did, it seems to me, and again I'm not sure
on this, it seems to me that Steve Bright--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --also did. Oh, and a couple of other people, but
I can't remember who they were.
00:25:00
PETER: Right. Why was it that you, that you were a
speaker at the time?
GARDNER: Oh, well, I hadn't been asked to.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But as I say, I was very worked up.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And--
PETER: --just trying to figure out ----------(??)--
GARDNER: --I wanted to ----------(??) get, get it out of my system.
PETER: Right, right. Who was, uh, controlling who was speaking at
the time? Was it, uh, was there a, a set program,
and a specific program ----------(??) say, or?
GARDNER: I don't really think there was a set program.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: Oh, there was a microphone there.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: But as I, I, I, as I recall, most of it
was like mine, just you know, impromptu.
PETER: Um-hm. More or less whoever had the microphone.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: Type thing. Do you remember what you talked about at
the time? It's on tape, I've suppose(??), I've heard it.
00:26:00
GARDNER: Right.
PETER: Just what you felt at the time.
GARDNER: I can remember my feelings much more than I can--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --remember precisely what it was.
PETER: As I remember it was, uh--
GARDNER: --that I said, I didn't ----------(??)--
PETER: --you had(??), something about making the mistake of turning on the
evening news, and seeing one of the, uh, the girls--
GARDNER: --oh--
PETER: --one of the dead girls--
GARDNER: --Allison Krause's father.
PETER: That's right, yes, on, uh, on television. And just how
upset you were. And, uh, and going on about the, uh,
just the finality of the, the girl's death.
GARDNER: Yeah. And the ----------(??) obviously institutional violence is not unknown
00:27:00to American society and American history. But what really got to
me in, in Allison Krause's father, it was ----------(??) interview with him.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: It is the, it was something that, and, and, and a
peculiar kind of, of political naivete--
PETER: --hm--
GARDNER: --that that's, was, was involved. In the sense that I
felt--I think I mentioned this in the, in the speech--simply(??) in the
sense as a, as a parent.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Who was committed to certain values and certain patterns of action
and, and what have you. And when the being(??) the product
00:28:00of rather idealistic American educational system in the, in the fifties.
That they were indeed, not only personal values, but they were values
that were presumably built into our, our system. And that in
a sense what Allison Krause and those other people at Kent State
were doing, they were the sort of things that I would hope
that my children would grow up to do.
PETER: Hm. Right.
GARDNER: And that you didn't expect to bring your children up with
that sort of values and have them shot for it.
PETER: Hm.
GARDNER: That.
PETER: A group, uh, it's, it's very vague when you look at
the, uh, the Herald and the Kernel reporting as to, uh, the
00:29:00movement of the crowd, uh, on the complex, apparently onto the complex
with, with the coffins. Do you, just briefly could you remember
the route?
GARDNER: Yeah, that's, I mean ----------(??)--
PETER: --yes, exactly, uh, there, there isn't a lot of detail on
that at all.
GARDNER: Okay, how we went from--
PETER: --Student Center to plaza--
GARDNER: --to plaza, where we came onto Rose Street, I don't know.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But we went through, what is it, Huguelet, or?
PETER: It's Huguelet.
GARDNER: Well, that street that runs between the dorms and the--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --and the med center there--
PETER: --and K-Lair and, and--
GARDNER: --yeah--
PETER: --right, I know the street.
GARDNER: Uh, we went there into the complex, around the buildings, back
out the same way. Up along Rose Street to Euclid.
00:30:00Uh, and then I think down Euclid to Lime, and sat down
for a fairly, fairly brief time.
PETER: What kind of reactions did you, uh, did you get along
the way? With people, you mentioned earlier that the crowd grew
apparently. Some joined it.
GARDNER: Yeah. And.
PETER: Was that actively pursued by, by the, uh, by the crowd?
Did you ask anyone to join you, or?
GARDNER: I can't remember. My, my sense is that, that there
wasn't.
PETER: Right, right. Any hostile reactions at all?
GARDNER: Uh, some over at the complex.
PETER: What, what ----------(??)?
GARDNER: Oh, people shouting out the windows--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: ----------(??).
PETER: So, and then you, you came back--
00:31:00
GARDNER: --but I can't remember anything more than the shouting though.
PETER: Um-hm. Onto, onto Euclid, the corner of Euclid and Rose
there.
GARDNER: I think so.
PETER: And walked in the street down to, down to Limestone?
GARDNER: Seems to me we followed the sidewalk along there. Until
we got to Limestone and then we went to the street.
PETER: The wide sidewalk. Right, okay. What happened at the
corner of, uh, Euclid and Limestone then?
GARDNER: Well, originally we were going to sit down in the intersection
and block the, block the intersection.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And we did for, oh, I don't know how long, but
it wasn't, it wasn't very long.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And then--
PETER: --what happened to the cars? See the way(??), you must've
gotten a reaction there?
GARDNER: Horns, right. (laughs)
PETER: Some horns, yeah.
GARDNER: But, again, nothing more, more than that that I can remember.
00:32:00
PETER: Um-hm. Uh, at one point--
GARDNER: --and as I say, it broke up fairly--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --fairly quickly.
PETER: Um-hm. Did all, did all the people sit down, or?
GARDNER: Oh, I don't(??) think so(??).
PETER: Um-hm. Were you, did you sit down?
GARDNER: Yes.
PETER: Yeah. Uh, the, the Kernel reported, there was a special
edition May 6, they'd stopped printing because this was final week and,
and what not.
GARDNER: Yeah(??).
PETER: But, uh, they reported that at, at, at one point in
the march, some people wanted to go downtown, and others wanted to
go onto, uh, to Barker Hall. Apparently there was a split.
Do you recall that split--
GARDNER: --no--
PETER: --in the group?
GARDNER: No.
PETER: No. Um-hm. Okay, uh, so after, after the sit-in
at the corner of, uh, Euclid and Limestone, people, I take it,
went onto, uh, Buell Armory.
00:33:00
GARDNER: Yep.
PETER: Um-hm. What happened there, do you remember?
GARDNER: Oh, generally kind of confusion.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Again, there some people spoke, but mostly people were milling around,
and people were trying to figure out what to--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --what to do next.
PETER: Do you remember how many people there were and what, what
area did the people take in? Someone told me that--
GARDNER: --well, it was different then because, you know, there was a
park-, there, they were--
PETER: --right. Somebody told me--
GARDNER: --there was an old parking lot from the, the building of
the tower was still over there. So, there--
PETER: -- ----------(??)--
GARDNER: --yeah. So, the landscape was, was different--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --then. But.
[Pause in recording.]
GARDNER: Is it on(??)?
PETER: Yeah.
GARDNER: But there were people--are, are you ready?
00:34:00
PETER: Yeah.
GARDNER: There were people from the, uh, garage(??), the circle there.
And there were ----------(??) some of them down to the bridge, and
at the beginning of this end of the bridge. How far
back they went toward to Frazee(??)--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --I, I don't know.
PETER: Most of the people were--
GARDNER: --but they were, most of them were fairly tightly clumped in
that--
PETER: --right, in the front of the building.
GARDNER: In the front of the building, no(??).
PETER: Do you remember who spoke?
GARDNER: Uh, no. Someone ----------(??) Steve Bright--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --that spoke. I think some plan that we were all
to go over to the Student Center.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Because there's a girl(??), I think, was with, with student government,
and wanting to get the mimeograph machines, and had some vision of
flooding the whole campus in flyers, or, or what have you.
00:35:00
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: And there was one other chap that I've wondered about for
eight years who also spoke.
PETER: Who was, uh, I think I might know who you're talking
about. There, there was--
GARDNER: --he was a ----------(??) that I'd never seen at any of
the things.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: I had never seen him before.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And he was coming on very strong, and it occurred to
me at the time, and it apparently occurred to some other people,
I wondered about it then whether he wasn't undercover.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: ----------(??)--
PETER: --let me, uh, the Kernel reported that there was, there was,
uh, uh, a group of leaders called The Group. Capital T,
capital G. Does that--
GARDNER: --doesn't mean anything--
PETER: --does The Group mean anything to you--
GARDNER: --no--
PETER: --um-hm. Well who, who, do you recall anything else about
this person? Did it(??) ----------(??)--
GARDNER: --no, I don't recall anything(??). I, I, as I recall
00:36:00he had some kind of motorcycle--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --outfit, leather jacket, and what have you, and that he was--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --terribly ----------(??) in talking about the people, and--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --you know all those catch phrases.
PETER: Right, right.
GARDNER: And, as I say, he struck me because I had no
idea who he was and hadn't--
PETER: --hm--
GARDNER: --hadn't seen him before in any of the previous antiwar--
PETER: --so what was--
GARDNER: --demonstrations on campus(??)--
PETER: --what was, what were most of the people then doing then?
GARDNER: Oh, as I say, mainly running around and not sure what
they were doing and what they were going to, to do.
Some people did go into the, the women's gym side.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And I don't know whether there was a scuffle, or the
inside of the armory, you could see through the windows, it was,
00:37:00oh, you know, milling(??) with, with -----------(??). Whether they were asked
to leave and left or whether they were scuffled out of there
or, or what, I really couldn't, couldn't see.
PETER: Um-hm.
[Pause in recording.]
PETER: So, what the--
GARDNER: --and--
PETER: --what the--
GARDNER: -- ----------(??) at one point someone had the clever idea of
throwing some rocks--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --at the ROTC building.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But they were sat down rather quickly.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: And it was made quite clear that that was not what
we were there for.
PETER: Um-hm. So, what, uh, what happened that, uh, what, what
intervened on, on, on that kind of confusing state?
GARDNER: Oh, well, there was, oh, a little business ----------(??)---------- either, Joe
Hall, but I think it was, I think it was either Jack
Hall, but I think it was Joe Burch.
00:38:00
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Was there with his walkie-talkies and what have you. And
as I recall, he was trying to get people to disperse, and
was about to declare the thing illegal, or what have you.
And there was really(??) just so many people out, it was, as
I said, people didn't know what to do or, or what they
were doing and were just kind of ----------(??)--------- --
PETER: -- ----------(??) at that time, I imagine--
GARDNER: --quite dark. And then suddenly everyone, there's a little gasp,
and everyone looked over, and.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And there were flames coming up over the top of the
Student Center.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And that was the end of the meeting at Buell Hall
as everyone.
PETER: Right. Were there any police involved?
00:39:00
GARDNER: Oh, well, as I say, there were, oh, inside the armory(??),
you could see through the windows.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Quite a few in there. And a few around the,
around the doors.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But except for the bulk of those who were ----------(??)
over in the, on the women's gym side--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --I can't remember that they.
PETER: Um-hm. So, there was no, there was no, uh, conflict
there with the police then.
GARDNER: Oh, not that I know of, except that, you know, there
may've been some shouting around the door to, to the Buell side.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But.
PETER: So, when you first saw the, the fire, what did you
think?
GARDNER: Surprised mainly that it was a big surprise to everyone.
PETER: Um-hm. What happened that, uh, the crowd, you say, went
00:40:00over there? Was it like through the, uh, through the Student
Center? Or, or around in front of the Student Center?
Was it a group movement or did they all ----------(??)--
GARDNER: --no, they just, they just all got there by whatever route.
There was no, there was no, you know, they went as
a group because they were ----------(??) a group, but it wasn't any,
any organized--
PETER: --right, right.
GARDNER: Anything, just, you know, they all went over.
PETER: Do you remember which went you went?
GARDNER: Oh, I'm trying to think.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: I don't think I went down through the terrace.
PETER: Um-hm. Um-hm.
GARDNER: But I can't remember, I can't remember how I, how I
got over there.
PETER: What was the fire like?
GARDNER: Oh, it was a big fire.
PETER: Big fire.
GARDNER: If you like fires, it was a good fire. (laughs)
00:41:00And by the time I got over there, it was in
full blaze. And I, I watched it from the, that parking
lot, the B, that B Lot.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: Over there on the other side of Harrison(??).
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: Already they had, they roped off, they, at Harrison there was
ropes down Harrison and ropes down Euclid.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Suppose the fire department had to deal(??) the mob. And
they were still emptying people out of Blazer Hall. And a
fair amount of confusion about that, and.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: They were getting kind of mixed reaction in the, in the
crowd. By that time, of course, the crowd had swelled with
all kinds of people just coming to, you know, to see the
fire.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Those people were not, who hadn't been in front of Buell.
But ----------(??) people, I guess, would be in front of, of
Buell. There was kind of, you know, fascination with, uh, a
00:42:00building fire, but, you know, concern about Blazer--
PETER: --um-hm, right--
GARDNER: --and getting those people out--
PETER: --there's been a lot of speculation as to, to how it
got started. Running around in the crowd, do you remember any
of that?
GARDNER: I was wondering who had done it.
PETER: Um-hm. Was there ever--
GARDNER: --but the ----------(??), there be the sense where the people that
I was, that were, that were around me.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And I gathered the sort of, you know, consensus throughout the
people that had been(??) in Buell that, again, it was an individual
initiative.
PETER: Um-hm. Rather than any organized--
GARDNER: --that's right--
PETER: --by anyone(??)--
GARDNER: --yeah, yeah.
PETER: Hm. Do you have any idea how it got started?
00:43:00
GARDNER: Oh, I assume that someone threw a firebomb through the window.
PETER: There had been some rumors floating around at the time about
a, uh, professional arson--
[Pause in recording.]
GARDNER: Well, it was substantial enough that a colleague of mine in
the art department and I spent all night--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --trying to, trying to track it down. Can you--
PETER: --get anywhere with it?
GARDNER: Pardon?
PETER: Get anywhere with it?
GARDNER: Oh, nothing ever happened, no.
PETER: Nothing ever happened.
GARDNER: That was the night of the fiasco in Memorial Hall.
PETER: Oh, I never heard of that.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: Was that earlier in the semester then?
GARDNER: I'm trying to think when that was.
PETER: Um-hm. I don't remember that at all.
GARDNER: ----------(??) I really, I think it must've been at least a
year earlier. There was some big rally and people started off
00:44:00spending--well, they were gonna originally spend the night in front of the
president's house.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And then someone got the hotshot idea of taking over Memorial
Hall.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And people went over there. And this is, and, and
that's where we got concerned about the, the dynamite--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --because there were, there were enough, there wasn't very many, but
there were enough really crazies who, that, that, that the rumor was
credible.
PETER: Um-hm. ----------(??) at that time.
GARDNER: Got over there that night.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And people moved into Memorial Hall, and discovered that the university
didn't own it. It, it had to been, it was, it
00:45:00would've been, uh, it was in the process of, of repair and
remodeling. And apparently the university had legally deeded it to the
contractors, so that to handle the liability insurance or something like that.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: So there's legally it was not, at that time, it was
not university property.
PETER: Hm.
GARDNER: It belonged to the contractors.
PETER: Um-hm, um-hm.
[Pause in recording.]
GARDNER: And so that we would not have been, those people would
not have been sitting-in on university property.
PETER: Um-hm. Were you there that night?
GARDNER: Oh, yeah.
PETER: Yeah. So, they were, they were in the building and
then someone informed them of that?
GARDNER: Um-hm. Yeah.
PETER: How was that received?
GARDNER: (both laugh) Well, it was, ----------(??) embarrassing.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: ----------(??) just the irony of them, and the comedy of it,
though.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: ----------(??)----------. You know, it had struck everyone. So, they,
they just sort of grabbed up their blankets and sleeping bags and
slunk off with sheepish looks on their faces.
PETER: Huh. (laughs) Uh, the next few days after the,
00:46:00uh, as, as a result, I think mainly of the, of the
burning, uh, Governor Nunn--
GARDNER: --called in the troops.
PETER: Called in the, uh, the National Guard. And for a
while they were on campus.
GARDNER: Um-hm.
PETER: Uh, do you remember--
GARDNER: --that whole exam week.
PETER: I'm sorry?
GARDNER: They were here that whole exam week, weren't they?
PETER: I think so, like four days, I'm not real sure, I
believe it was four days. Do you remember anything of, of,
of those four days? Just your understanding of--
GARDNER: --well--
PETER: --your general impressions, I mean--
GARDNER: I remember I was mad as hops.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: Because it seemed quite clear--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --that it was both an overreaction on Nunn's part and clearly
a political move. You know, he wanted to be able to
say to the state of Kentucky, "I am in control, and I
have taken stern measures, and I'm not going to put up with,
with any of this." And it struck me as totally unnecessary.
00:47:00
PETER: There were rallies on campus.
GARDNER: Yeah.
PETER: Apparently illegal rallies, because the, the--
GARDNER: --oh yeah, the rule was we weren't supposed to do this.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: But the main one that I remember was a gathering in
front of Buell Armory.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And there were, as I recall, they weren't National Guardsmen; they
were state patrol.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And they were lined up in double file.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: To protect Buell Armory. And, of course, they gathered a
crowd in front of them. And there was a kind of
ad hoc effort on the part of the faculty who were sympathetic
to the students and who, again, didn't want to see any of
00:48:00them shot, to just kind of informally station ourselves between the--
PETER: --hm--
GARDNER: --state parole, state patrol, and, and automatic shotguns.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: To just, you know, sort of casually get ourselves in between
them and the students who were sitting on that grassy area.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: There--
PETER: --sounds like a rather dangerous position.
GARDNER: Oh, you have a state policeman cock an automatic shotgun about
four inches behind your ear, and you remembered that sound.
PETER: Um-hm. Is that, uh--
GARDNER: --and that's, that's when they did that sweep that I was
telling you about earlier--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --and, you know, ran everyone--
PETER: --I think that--
GARDNER: --around through that parking lot, and--
PETER: --that was the next night, I believe.
GARDNER: It was late afternoon; it wasn't dark yet.
PETER: Okay, but May 6, rather, the next, the next day, the
next day, ----------(??) the afternoon.
GARDNER: Yeah, I think it was afternoon, it was late afternoon.
00:49:00
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: It was still light.
PETER: Um-hm. Was there any forewarning? That there?
GARDNER: That they were going to do this?
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: I think someone must have announced--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --that this was an illegal assembly and--
PETER: --right--
GARDNER: --and that's, and requested people to clear the area. Of
course, everyone was still sitting there.
PETER: Still sitting. Everyone was sitting?
GARDNER: Well, when they showed up coming out with those automatic shotguns,
they didn't sit for very long. ----------(??) out.
PETER: Right, right. Was there any, uh, at that meeting, were
there any, uh, protestor speakers?
GARDNER: There may have been but I don't remember any.
PETER: Yeah.
GARDNER: I think it was very, it was more of a vigil
kind of thing than.
PETER: Um-hm. But, uh, given the presence of, of the state
police, that seems to have been a, a potentially more, more dangerous,
00:50:00uh, rally than, than the night of the burning, do you agree
with that?
GARDNER: Uh, you would think that the, there was a, there were
larger--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --police, and they were there with weapons, rather than, you know,
shotguns rather than billy clubs. It was. But it was
less dangerous in the sense that the people who were there were
much more passive. You know, it was a vigil rather than
a--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --a rally.
PETER: So, do you think there was any real danger to, to
anyone, uh, on May 5, the night of the burning that rally?
GARDNER: That rally, uh, there, there, there was potential danger, because there,
there were police there, and there were some, some hotheads.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And there were some rocks thrown.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: I, myself, at the time didn't think of any danger.
00:51:00
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: In it. And, if there was danger, I would've seen
it as coming from the police rather than, than from the crowd.
PETER: Right.
GARDNER: ----------(??), you know, the crowd itself were the ones who sat
on(??) the people who were throwing rocks.
PETER: Um-hm. Any other, uh, vivid impressions of the guard on
campus?
GARDNER: No, not really, but they, other than that they were here,
and that ----------(??) was both one of, more of an annoyance--
PETER: --um-hm--
GARDNER: --and even kind of the comedy of it. That, the
sense of overreaction. I know a lot, a lot of the
students, and especially those who were, who weren't yet politicized were terrified.
00:52:00
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And there were a whole(??) a constant stream of cars of
parents coming to, to get their kids.
PETER: Hm. Um-hm. There were a lot of, uh, a
lot of teachers, uh, some teachers, anyway, cancelled finals?
GARDNER: Um-hm.
PETER: That week. Did you cancel yours?
GARDNER: Well, it turned out the courses I was teaching that semester
weren't having finals.
PETER: No final(??).
GARDNER: So, I had no finals to, to cancel.
PETER: Well, what do you think, to sum up, what do you
think happened--
GARDNER: --if I had, if I, if I had have done a,
a final, I would've cancelled them.
PETER: Um-hm. Okay. (laughs) ----------(??)----------
GARDNER: And, again, I've had students, you know, had to turn in
their, their term papers, bring them to my house rather than to
my office because they were afraid to--
PETER: --hm. Um-hm. Sure.
GARDNER: Come down.
PETER: What, what do you think happened to, uh, the movement?
00:53:00I mean, obviously that sort of thing isn't here today.
GARDNER: (pause) Well, in one sense it is.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And again, I'm, I'm generalizing(??) on myself, but I, I, I
think I'm justified, in that when you remember last summer when there
was all the business about building that gymnasium at Kent State.
PETER: Hm, um-hm, um-hm.
GARDNER: And it really in a way, it surprised me, watching that
to see how immediately all of those feelings came right back, and
how very, very close to the surface that, that really was.
00:54:00But in, it brought it, but I understand your, your question.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And in broader terms I would say, in one sense, May
1970 was after the fact. The real end was Chicago in
'68. And what ended it there was simply the sense of,
of the, the enormity of that happened there.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And the sense of futility. That this, you know, this
was really what we were, were up against. I think to
say that May '70 was really kind of aftershock or last gasp.
00:55:00I think(??) in terms, another thing that, that changed it is
that after Chicago, after My Lai, after Que Son, after Kent State,
Jackson State, that in the deeper sense we won. That the,
the climate of, of public political opinion, and opinion toward the war
gradually became, began to shift. And people were, you know, still
suspicious, and contemptuous, and afraid, what have you, of all these longhaired
00:56:00radicals. But the, the methods really ----------(??) people ----------(??) to them.
PETER: Right. Okay.
GARDNER: And it took a, you know, an invariably a long and
really ----------(??) but we did eventually get out.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: And the, the national commitments(??) were getting out. Certainly shifted.
PETER: Anything else that you'd like to say? It's a wide
topic, I know, but, uh.
GARDNER: Oh.
PETER: In particular.
GARDNER: I could go back to what I just said.
PETER: Um-hm.
GARDNER: That the people who, who lived through that, that time, and
00:57:00who were ----------(??) actively involved in it, they never will be the
same.
PETER: Okay, I'll thank you for your time.
GARDNER: Great. Great.
[End of interview.]
