Interview with Harriette S. Arnow, October 5, 1982

Partial Transcript: Well, Harriet, here we are on Nixon Road.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow was born in Wayne County, Kentucky, the second of six children. The family moved to Burnside, where Arnow grew up. Burnside is a lumber mill town along the Big South Fork and the Cumberland River. There had once been a veneer factory there. The Army Corps of Engineers changed the course of the Cumberland River, so the businesses closed. Arnow's mother taught school before marriage. Her father was a teacher, but became a tool dresser driller instead because the pay was higher. As her younger siblings were born, her grandmother would come to visit. Watching the younger children was not as much fun as tending to the cows or the farm chores.

Keywords: Army Corps of Engineers; Big South Fork; Burnside, Kentucky; Cumberland River; Family; Wayne County, Kentucky

Subjects: Burnside (Ky.); Childhood; Cumberland River, Big South Fork (Tenn. and Ky.); Families.; US Army Corps of Engineers; Wayne County (Ky.)

Partial Transcript: And I'd rather read as soon as I was old enough to read, or listen to stories.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow's grandmother told sad and frightening stories of the French and Indian War. Her father's stories were funny. He could sing and was a great storyteller. He taught her a bit of history, a song about the murder of James Garfield. Arnow's mother was religious for the early part of her life, and later stopped attending church as frequently. Her grandmother was also religious.

Keywords: Charles Guiteau; Chimneys; Family; French and Indian War; James Garfield; Ladies Home Journal; Magazines; Saturday Evening Post

Subjects: Childhood; Chimneys; Families.; Garfield, James A. (James Abram), 1831-1881; Guiteau, Charles J. (Charles Julius), 1841-1882; Log cabins; Periodicals; Religion; United States--History--French and Indian War, 1754-1763

Partial Transcript: Who drilled you in spelling at home?

Segment Synopsis: Arnow did not learn to read before going to school. She did not earn good grades in penmanship. Arnow got a secondhand typewriter in the fourth grade. That year, she wrote her first imaginative story, telling the story of a desk from the first person. The early, dark stories that she listened to used to make her cry, but then she would change the ending of story in her own mind. Then she began to use the same characters to make stories for herself. Her father told stories of the Revolution.

Keywords: Penmanship; Revolutionary War; Royal Typewriter; Storytelling

Subjects: Childhood; Education; Penmanship; Royal Typewriter Company; Storyteller; United States--History--Revolution, 1775-1783

Partial Transcript: And he had all these handed down stories.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow retells a folk tale of a man who thought he could do his wife's work better than she could. The two spouses switch jobs for the day. It does not go well for the man. Arnow then tells about how dramatically her father told the tale of "Jack and the Beanstalk," and James Still's "Jack and the Wonder Beans." She would like to find the origin of the story.

Keywords: Folk tales; Giants; Jack and the Beanstalk; James Still; Trading places stories; Turpentine

Subjects: Childhood; Folk tales; Giants; Jack and the beanstalk; Still, James, 1906-2001; Turpentine

Partial Transcript: Well, when you start talking about changing the stories in your head, all these stories that had been told to you, changing them in your head--

Segment Synopsis: Arnow changed the stories with unhappy endings to make herself happier.

Keywords: Cumberland; Fiction; River Dee; Thames; Tidal rivers

Subjects: Dee, River (Wales and England); Thames River (England)

Partial Transcript: Um, I guess you were talking about high school.

Segment Synopsis: After completing high school in Burnside, Arnow attended Berea College, where she never found any other person interested in writing fiction. At the University of Louisville, Arnow joined the Chi Delta Phi writing sorority. The members of the sorority read their work to each other. During her college years, Arnow's mother was frequently ill.

Keywords: Berea College; Chi Delta Phi; Education; Fiction; Placebos; Teachers; University of Louisville

Subjects: Berea College; Education; Education, Higher; Higher education; Placebos (Medicine); Teachers; University of Louisville

Partial Transcript: I've heard you tell about how Berea was kind of a strict place to live.

Segment Synopsis: Berea College had a fifty dollar fine for smoking. She figured that anything worth fifty dollars must be really good, and started to smoke. Women were not permitted to wear silk stockings or makeup. Once a week she had to listen to a lecture on manners and morals. She felt that the mission of the college was to eradicate all indications of a student's origins in the hills of Appalachia, and teach the students to pass as middle class people brought up in any northern city. Arnow sought information about different ethnic groups, including the Angles and the Saxons. There was no history or folk music of Appalachia, nor discussion of the economics of the region. Berea college did not seem to encourage reading.

Keywords: Angles; Appalachia; Bloomers; Cigarettes; Dulcimers; Folk dancing; Folk songs; Lisle stockings; Makeup; Saxons; Smoking

Subjects: Anglo-Saxons; Appalachian Region; Appalachian Region--Social conditions; Berea College; Cosmetics; Dulcimer; Education, Higher; Folk dancing; Folk songs; Higher education; Hosiery

Partial Transcript: Well you did some work at UK, uh, what's called--

Segment Synopsis: Arnow earned a teaching certificate while at Berea. Arnow's family could not afford to send her back for more college, so she went to teach in a small town. Arnow took a correspondence course in writing. She conceived of a five-year plan, in order to be able to finish what she started within five years. Arnow tried to write poetry, but decided that she did not have the aptitude. She does not try to write in a poetic way.

Keywords: "Child's Garden of Verse"; Correspondence courses; Harold Strauss; Poetry; Robert Louis Stevenson; Teachers; Teaching

Subjects: Berea College; Stevenson, Robert Louis, 1850-1894; Stevenson, Robert Louis, 1850-1894. Child's garden of verses

Partial Transcript: Tell me something about the fugitives, Harrit--Harriette.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow says that the people about whom she was drawn to write were not the "great, faceless mass" of the proletariat. They were individuals. Arnow discusses the influence her environment has had on her writing.

Keywords: "The Dollmaker"; Boll weevil; Characters; Childhood; Choice; Choosing; Dogs; Farming; Fugitives (poets); Gertie; Land; Manefesto; Nature; Proletarian literature; Rural life; Sharecropping; South

Subjects: Authors.; Fugitives (Group); Place attachment; Proletariat; Rural conditions; Writing

Partial Transcript: Were there any books that influenced you in terms of, of, of your writing?

Segment Synopsis: Arnow recalls that the school library was only a dictionary and an encyclopedia. Arnow seems to be drawn to the characters in the stories of the authors whose influence she felt. After a time, Arnow stopped imagining different endings to the books she was reading. She did not want to break the spell of the books.

Keywords: "Anna Karenina"; "War and Peace"; American Book Company; Charles Dickens; James Fenimore Cooper; Thomas Hardy

Subjects: American Book Company; Authors.; Cooper, James Fenimore, 1789-1851; Dickens, Charles, 1812-1870; Dostoyevsky, Fyodor, 1821-1881; Hardy, Thomas, 1748-1798; Karenina, Anna (Fictitious character); Writing

Partial Transcript: Well, the--I'm struck by a notion of naivete, that, that these people just you know like, Anna Karen--Kare--I can never pronounce that name, but Anna.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow discusses the nature of the character Gertie [from "The Dollmaker"] who was startled when she caught a glimpse of herself for the first time. Arnow believes that Gertie could not have considered her own face for the subject of her whittling, because she considered herself ugly. The interviewer asks Arnow about her perception of the attractiveness of her personal appearance. Arnow did not identify with any character, but they seemed to be in physical proximity. They discuss Fundamentalist views on wine vs. whiskey.

Keywords: "The Dollmaker"; Beauty, Personal; Detroit, Michigan; Fundamentalism; Toddies; Whiskey

Subjects: Beauty; Fundamentalism; Whiskey

Partial Transcript: You were talking about Gertie, and uh, uh, that she really wasn't like you. You, you, um--

Segment Synopsis: Gertie was secretive, and she was unable to see any value in industry. The Alley was a place where Gertie learned much. Gertie couldn't understand Maxine. But Gertie learned that other good women in the world had a harder life than Gertie did. Arnow discusses the multiple meanings of the words "yeah" and "lay."

Keywords: Characters; Detroit (Mich.); Harriette Arnow; Industry; Secrecy

Subjects: Arnow, Harriette Louisa Simpson, 1908-1986; Detroit (Mich.); Fictitious characters; Industries; Secrecy

Partial Transcript: Um, tell me about when you got "The Dollmaker" written, what kind of, um, reception you had with, uh, with your editors and, and all of that.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow recounts the process of getting "The Dollmaker" published. The original editor wanted to change all of the dialogue to be standard English.

Keywords: "The Dollmaker"; Count Pulaski; Dialogue; Editors; Great Depression; Novels; Thomas Wolfe

Subjects: Authors and publishers.; Authors.; Depressions--1929; Dialogue; Editors; Novels; Publishers and publishing.; Pulaski, Casimir, 1747-1779; Wolfe, Thomas, 1900-1938; Writing

Partial Transcript: Uh, do you think, do you think that modern literature, and I'm thinking of literature that's current, do you think that the story or--is, is just getting weaker?

Segment Synopsis: The conversation addresses the nature of a good book. The importance of the story and changing tastes in literature are discussed.

Keywords: Joyce Carol Oates; Marcel Proust; Modern literature

Subjects: Authors.; Literature, Modern; Oates, Joyce Carol, 1938-; Proust, Marcel, 1871-1922; Writing

Partial Transcript: It's, you told me to be ready to go before a quarter to six?

Segment Synopsis: Note: [There is a small break in the interview to discuss dinner plans.]

Partial Transcript: Yeah, we're, we're doing fine.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow looks forward to seeing the movie version of "The Dollmaker," and thinks that Jane Fonda will do a good job.

Keywords: "The Dollmaker"; Film adaptations; Jane Fonda:Hill people; Movie adaptations

Subjects: Fonda, Jane, 1937-; Mountain people

Partial Transcript: I was wondering, Harriette, if you had something to say to young writers, what would you say to them?

Segment Synopsis: Arnow feels that some young writers expect to make money, while the reality is that the average writer cannot make enough money to support himself. Arnow observes that only work that is done for pay is considered real work in our modern society, so that people who work within the home are not considered as doing work. A writer should want to write first, have something to say, enjoy saying it, and be prepared to work at it. Many would-be writers want to be certain of the money they expect to earn. Observation requires more than looking.

Keywords: Writer's Guild; Writing as employment

Subjects: Employment; Occupations; Writers Guild of America; Writing for work

Partial Transcript: What about--(coughs)--what about metaphor?

Segment Synopsis: Arnow discusses some of the metaphors in her books, from examples given by the interviewer. Arnow says that she does not think too much in terms of similes, metaphors, or symbols. Gertie was not inarticulate when she was working with the block of wood. But Arnow does not think of the metaphors as metaphors while she is writing. Her style matches her characters and situation.

Keywords: "The Dollmaker"; Metaphors; Symbolism; Writing styles

Subjects: Metaphor; Style, Literary; Symbolism

Partial Transcript: Well, you talked earlier about the things that Gertie, um--her weaknesses, the things that--

Segment Synopsis: A discussion of the end of the novel. Life consists of success and defeat. Gertie regretted giving up her role as a helpmeet at home. She was glad and proud to help the family in the city, although using the block of wood was hard to part with.

Keywords: "The Washerwoman's Day"; Labor strikes; Unemployment

Subjects: Labor movement; Strikes and lockouts; Unemployment

Partial Transcript: Harriette, uh, I was wondering, too about, in terms of artistic craft--

Segment Synopsis: Arnow feels that using too many words is her greatest fault as a writer. She went through a period in her writing when she tried to write without any adjectives or adverbs. While she was able to write that way once, she feels that she has never been able to recapture that style of writing again, which she considers her best work.

Keywords: "The Washerwoman's Day"; Adjectives; Adverbs; Editing

Subjects: Adjective; Authors.; Grammar, Comparative and general--Adverb.; Manuscripts--Editing; Writing

Partial Transcript: Well, um, I wanted to mention other thing.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow discusses her reputation as a recluse. She agrees that she is something of a recluse. She needs to stay home so that she can write. Arnow is working to finish a manuscript. During this segment, Arnow discusses the arrangement of her work day, writing, and correspondence. Arnow's advice for writers is that they should simply "sit down and write." She writes in longhand. This draft is what she calls her worksheet. Then she edits, cutting out unneeded scenes, characters, and dialogue. Much of her correspondence involves requests for use under copyright.

Keywords: Recluses; Routines; Schedules; Typewriters

Subjects: Authors.; Hermits; Typewriters; Writing

Partial Transcript: On this new manuscript that you happen to be working on--

Segment Synopsis: Arnow does her research from books that she has in her library, as well as a copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica. She discusses the need to research furniture, modes of dress, and farming implements and practices.

Keywords: Civil War; Research; United States Army; Writing

Subjects: Authors.; Research; United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865; United States. Army; Writing

Partial Transcript: You do grow your own tomatoes and your own pe--you do grow your own tomatoes and your own peppers...

Segment Synopsis: Arnow grows fruits and vegetables in a household garden, and cans her own jams.

Keywords: Fruit; Gardening; Gardens; Jam; Plums

Subjects: Canning and preserving; Food--Preservation

Partial Transcript: You got a name for an awful lot of things.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow has come up with unexpected names for aspects of her life. She calls her work space 'Bedlam.' Her car's name is 'Tweeter.' Her dog's name is 'Sin,' named after the Sumerian god of wisdom. The dog is part of the family.

Keywords: Automobiles; Hearing aids; Pets:Sumerian names

Subjects: Automobiles; Dogs; Hearing aids; Names, Sumerian

Partial Transcript: If someone were to say about, um, say the behemoth industry that, that, uh, causes Gertie to lose her daughter, or were to say that, that, uh, you often write about class and the victims of, of classism, um, would you--what would you say to that?

Segment Synopsis: Most people were living better lives than they had ever known. During the Depression, things wouldn't have been worse for Gertie in the hills of her home, because in the hills the economy was only partly based on money. In the city, the economy was different, everything came from her husband. Gertie blamed her problems on industry.

Keywords: "The Dollmaker"; Classism; Great Depression; Industries; Unemployment

Subjects: Classism; Depressions--1929; Industries; Unemployment

Partial Transcript: While you're taking a drag off of your Lucky Strike, um, you used the phrase, uh, "social history" when you were talking in the Detroit Free Press.

Segment Synopsis: Arnow defines social history as the study of the mores of a culture at a certain time, while most of the history that students study is the political and military history. Dickens used Mayhew's works about social history. "The Dollmaker" is social history now, having been written during World War II.

Keywords: "The Dollmaker"; Appalachian Redevelopment Act; Henry Mayhew; Journals; Letters; London Social History; Social history

Subjects: Diaries; Letters; Mayhew, Henry, 1812-1887. London labour and the London poor. Selections; Social history; World War, 1939-1945