Interview with Aubrey Williams, December 13, 2013

ARD: --press record. Today is December 13th, 2013, and I am here with Judge Aubrey Williams. My name is Constance Ard, and this is an interview for the Legacy of African American Judges in Kentucky. Thank you so much, Judge Williams--

WILLIAMS: --um-hm--

ARD: --for taking the time to interview with us. We appreciate it.

WILLIAMS: Um-hm. You're welcome, for sure.

ARD: So, I want to start with your early life. Can you tell me when and where you were born?

WILLIAMS: I was born in Verda, Kentucky, which is in Harlan County, Kentucky coal-mining camp, um--in, uh, 1945. And, attended Rosenwald High School, which went out of existence in 1963, after my graduating class.

ARD: What was the community like where you grew up?

WILLIAMS: Idyllic. We didn't have anything, but we didn't know we didn't have anything. (laughs) Refrigerator was, uh, "naked" as we were would refer to it, had, um--ice water, um, uh--what did they call--surplus milk, which was made out of powder, surplus cheese. (laughs) My mother's idea of a--of a country dinner was, um, crackling bread and sorghum syrup. She said, "we have a country dinner today," and--and, uh, that's what it was. But it was idyllic, we--um, had, uh, the--the river, you had the mountains. Uh, we played all day, played all night in the summertime. Doors were never locked; some--most of them could not lock. Um, went swimming in the creek, went fishing, went hiking, in--uh, in the mountains, uh, just a wonderful, uh--just a wonderful, you know, childhood and 00:02:00whatnot. We were very, very poor, you know, as I say, we didn't know we were poor, didn't have much, you know, so.

ARD: Do you still visit there?

WILLIAMS: Um, once a year. Um, the school--Rosewall High School has a--has a reunion, um, each year, and so we go back for that.

ARD: That sounds wonderful. Tell me a little bit about your parents.

WILLIAMS: My father was a coal miner; as a matter of fact, he was a union organizer, which was an honor--he's, black man in Harlan County, Kentucky, back in the '40s, to get union organizer, he was a union official, and was, uh--would represent his district at the, uh--the United Mining Workers National Convention, uh, and also unprecedented. Um, my mother, um--was--did day work. 00:03:00Prior to that, where we lived right there in Verda proper, um, she had a little store that was attached to the house, where you'd sell, you know, a little neighborhood store, candy, um, uh, bread, milk, you know, um--minor, small items. Um, my--she was very thrifty. We had a little garden on the side of the house, and I remember Saturday mornings, my father's stream of miners coming in and out of my house, my father helping them, assisting them, in, uh, various matters related to mining. Um, and that's, as I said, was in Verda. Then we moved to Harlan, which was like, big city population, 5,300 and something. (laughs)

ARD: Big city.

WILLIAMS: Yes. And, um, we lived in a neighborhood called Georgetown; that's where I say it was so idyllic, just a wonderful--wonderful experience.

ARD: Wonderful.

WILLIAMS: They were--growing up with--my, my mother and father had--or she was, I think, seventeen children, some of--who died in--in childbirth. Um, and, um--nine of them basically had, you know, survived when I was growing up. Um, and so we never--we just had a wonderful childhood. Was wonderful, yeah.

ARD: Tell me about your siblings, then. Um, were there any that you were particularly close to, or that really kind of helped, um, mentor you, or?

WILLIAMS: Um, now my older--not my oldest brother, but the one next to the--um, his name was, um--was Elijah, named after my father. His nickname was Nana (??). He quit school in sixth grade to, uh, basically just help support the family. He was probably the most loving human being I've ever known in my life, 00:05:00just as sweet and kind as he could be, uh just--just forgive you, just anything, and, um--um, so, and I was--I would say I was his favorite. I was probably everybody's favorite. (laughs) The younger and the old, um--and then my, um--my other oldest, he was a Vietnam, uh, war veteran, he was wounded in Vietnam. Um, we were close. He played, um--I played basketball; I was--I guess you would call it, basketball star. He was a couple of years behind me. And, uh, so, um, he looked up to me, and uh--then after him, there was, as far as brothers concerned, was Les, um, was very thrifty, um, all of us worked. As a matter of 00:06:00fact, I cut hair when I was in high school. Um, Thomas knew how to cut (??) hair now, Tom oldest, oldest, tall--Les, and Les opened his own actual shop. Um, and we would also do various things to make money, like, uh, do errands for neighbors or other people in the community, haul off trash, and just, you know, very--various things. My sister, Jean, um, was my oldest sister, and I was her--love of her life. (both laugh) Um, she and I started delivering newspapers, the Grit newspaper out of Tennessee. Um, I was a--about five or six, and she was seven or eight. That was my first job, and I've been working ever since. Um, and then my baby sister, who was Betty, she was just--just as "cute as a speckled pup" I would always say about her. And of course, she 00:07:00passed about five years ago of breast cancer. Forty years a nurse at Cleveland Clinic, one of the top clinics in the world, right? She was head nurse of the cancer unit. All right, they misdiagnosed her. So anyway. Um, and so, those were, you know, two sisters who had survived. Daisy had died before I was born. Um, and then, so there was Les, and then there was Johnny--Johnny was probably my--um, he looked a lot like me. He was a basketball star like I was. Um, he could get anything from me. Um, and then my baby brother was Carl. Um, being the baby brother equals he just enjoyed what they--the brothers enjoy, you know. Um, that's all, yeah, that's about--my oldest brother, Sonny, we didn't--he had left home when I was young, and gone up east and--um, he was--like, a gangster. 00:08:00(laughs) And never came back. Um, but that's basically it.

ARD: So, that sounds like a pretty, uh--pretty diverse group of siblings to learn from each other and that kind of thing. What--what values were kind of the foundation of your family? Um, were there things that your parents really concentrated, and passed along to you that kind of helped influence you?

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, hard work. Work and thriftiness. I'm--it's like I said, I like something you hear that a lot, -----------(??) my father was this, but my father says, he was a coal miner, he worked every day, and, uh, as I said, union official. Obviously, he was very bright. My mother, uh, was very thrifty. Uh, she--do this, had this little store, uh, attached to the house. Uh, and we would move to Harlan, Harlan proper, over in Georgetown, we all had assignments, 00:09:00for instance, every Saturday morning, we had our chores. Even though we lived in a little four-room house, including the kitchen, um, and, uh--wood stove, coal stove, um, we--my job was to clean the, uh--the restroom, bathroom consisted of just a stool. (laughs) Okay, but that was my job, keep it clean. Someone else's job was the kitchen, probably I'm sure my sisters Betty and Jean who both learned to cook very early. Um, someone--uh, uh, uh another one's job, was the back porch; someone had the front porch, and someone had the yard, even though we had a yard, it was just dirt. But you had to sweep the yard. (laughs) Up and down the street, you know people didn't have grass or lawns, but you had--you had a little, uh, small yards, and dirt, and you sweep the yard; 00:10:00you had to clean the yard. (laughs) And so, uh, they were just very hard-working. Of course, time was tough, and there was--came a time when my father, when the mine, she was out of work off-and-on. Um, and, you know, we--you sort of made it, um, on your own. I mean, when I say "on my own," as a family. Families--well the families supported one another. Everybody was--was like a struggle. I recall, my--my brother would go fishing, and one--this one time he caught thirty-something fish, sun granny, it was called. And so we would eat fish that would be caught. We grew foods, and we eat that food. I was a good flapjack maker, pancake, homemade flapjack. Um, and also I remember, you know, Christmas, around this time of year, my mother would make these 00:11:00wonderful cakes, these three and four-layer cakes, and--just, Christmas was a wonderful time. Um, but I could never understand though, why, I could not get the things that I write Santa Claus a letter for. (laughs) This one time, I got--probably one of my best Christmases was when I got a bike. I finally got a bicycle. I want a bicycle for years, and--and we were in Verda, I had this little red scooter, a bike, a little red scooter. Then finally, some years later, I got that bike. Um, but you get one toy, hey you--gosh, it was a great Christmas, you know, so.

ARD: That's wonderful.

WILLIAMS: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

ARD: So hard work and thriftiness are some good things--

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

ARD: --to lead you forward.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

ARD: Tell me a little bit about, um--about your education. Uh, where did you go to--I mean, you talked a little bit about the school that you went to--

WILLIAMS: Yes, Harlan--

ARD: --what was the environment like?

WILLIAMS: Oh, Harlan Rosenwald, my--uh, the school that I graduated from was Harlan Rosenwald, graduated in sixty-three, and the largest class that ever graduated, twenty-nine students (laughs). Um, I was editor-in-chief of the school newspaper as a freshman, and I recall, right, doing an editorial, uh, describing the conditions of black people, and saying that black people were like the--like the stirrups of--of a saddle that a white man rode on. I was a ninth-grader, um, elected by the student body. Uh, but it was wonderful, just an absolute wonderful experience. Um, we did not have textbooks, a lot of those. We had to buy them; we just didn't have them. Um, some were handed down from the white school, but I recall, I think the only book that I ever actually owned was a math book, and that was because I was weak in math. Uh, exceled in 00:13:00everything else. And another--and, and my classmate, Lester Philips, he was weak in English, which was my strongest subject. So we tutored each other. Um, and--but you know, and our teachers were just absolutely encouraged us. They--uh, they pushed us to study--study hard, um--as a matter of fact, my class, we were called "the brilliant teens." That was, uh, Les, Paul Reboyne (??), Paul McGee (??), uh Russell Sims (??), uh, me, boys (??), and there was Caroline Copeland (??), Ernestine Chislim (??) and Jackie, Jackie McClellan (??), or eight of us, seemed like there were nine--Brenda, Brenda, can't think of Brenda's last name, but nine students, all--and we were competing always who would make the best grades and so forth. Um, and so as I said, we called ourselves the--we were called the "Brilliant Teens," it was probably a term that 00:14:00I gave us, as I was--editor-in-chief of the newspaper. (laughs) Um, but we had that first competition, took great pride in making gra--good grades. Um, and, um--but a lot of kids did not go to college. Of course, I was the only boy who--who graduated from college.

ARD: Where did you go to college at?

WILLIAMS: I went several places. I went briefly at Kentucky State right after high school, but I left there because I had gotten married when I was--my senior year, and my wife got pregnant, yeah. So I left, went to--went to Detroit. But then, after two years there, I went to Sue Bennett Junior College in London, which is no longer exis--in existence, but the most wonderful school I went to, just wonderful. Um, on a basketball scholarship. Left there, went to East Carolina briefly, because the coach there promised my--promised me that he'd give my wife a job, and we had a place to live, and he reneged on the promise. 00:15:00And so, things didn't sit very well between the two of us, and I ended up leaving there, went to Pikeville College on a scholarship, um, basketball scholarship. But, I didn't play, but, uh, a couple of games, just couldn't get back into it because it was a step down from Division I ball, which I would have been playing at East Carolina. And especially, as much as I had opportunity to have gone to U of L [University of Louisville], -----------(??), but I went to East Carolina instead, with the thought of, um--because one of my teammates was from, um, Greenville, North Carolina. He encouraged me to go there, persuaded me to go there. We would put East Carolina on the map, get drafted and play football. Um, one other reason why things didn't go well with the coach and me, he discovered I was taking these pre-law courses, called me into his office, wanted to know what the deal was, and he brought up, and said, told, reminded me he brought me there to play ball, not to, uh, be taking these difficult courses. 00:16:00That's what, I wanted to be a lawyer. (laughs) And I want to take these--these courses. Um, so but that didn't last, and I ended up at Pikeville College, then went to Case Western Reserve in Cleveland for a couple of semesters, and, um--then, to law school. Um, two of my professors from Pikeville College, um, introduced me to the dean here, because while I was an honors student, I did poorly on the S--the LSAT. And, they told me--as a matter of fact, I would substitute teach their classes, if there were (??). And, uh, they, uh, confident--they took me to meet the Dean, Dean Mary (??) at the law school, and told him there was no question of mind that I could, um--that I could do the work, and I told Dean Mary (??) that I would be-- I would be a dean's list student. And I didn't make the dean's list the first semester, but the second 00:17:00and succeeding semesters--succeeding three semesters or four, I did make dean's list. Um, and so, then I was going to go back to Detroit to practice law, or to Cleveland where I had family. Um, but I decided to stay here, and, um--um, so that was that. And then, some place, some years later, I then went to seminary, got a master's and a Ph.D in Christian ethics and philosophy. So, yeah.

ARD: That's quite the, uh--

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

ARD: --the educational career.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

ARD: Um, something that you said while you were talking about your experience at East Carolina was that you were taking pre-law classes.

WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

ARD: So you knew and had an interest in going to law school early on?

WILLIAMS: Seventh grade.

ARD: Seventh grade.

WILLIAMS: Someway, I--

ARD: How'd that come to you?

WILLIAMS: --I just don't know. I really do not know, I just remember very clearly, it was so unprecedented, so unusual, especially a black kid in eastern Kentucky. But I said I wanted to be a lawyer; I was in seventh grade. And it 00:18:00was reaffirmed when I saw a movie, I think it was The Philadelphia Story or something. It was around ninth grade or tenth grade. But, no, I--I was going to be a lawyer. And, my primary reason for being a lawyer to be hon--was to--might sound hokey, but to fight for justice for my people. The same reason why I got involved in politics.

ARD: Very cool.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

ARD: Um, can you talk a little bit about, um--kind of what happened to you after law school? You--you said you were thinking about going to Detroit and--

WILLIAMS: --um-hm--

ARD: --Cleveland, but you decided to stay here. So, did you go straight into law practice?

WILLIAMS: Okay, this is how--I was, uh, working for the Human Rights Commission, and as Todd Devendorf (??) my supervisor, uh, would say, he said, "Aubrey has his own set of rules." (laughs) They had a rule that you could not go to law school and work at the same time. Uh, you know, I said, really didn't 00:19:00make any sense to me. And so, I enrolled in law school, but I went to early morning class, and then I would dash to work, and, uh--then at lunch time, I would--I would take another class. And then, in the evening, I would take a class. (laughs) And then the law school had it--had a rule that you couldn't work full-time and go to law school. (laughs) So, uh, of course, you know, I did it anyhow. Then one day, um, my supervisor was looking for one of my files. I was an investigator, before you ask me. And, uh--of course, I did my studying at the office on the--at night and on the weekends, right? (laughs) He discovers, found one of my law books. (laughs) "Aubrey, what are you doing?" I told him, because it was okay. (laughs) He was all right with it. Um, and 00:20:00that, one--and--and I had planned to go back, but then I saw there were only two or three--there were more than that, I imagine. But, it was small, just a very small number of black lawyers, okay. There was--uh, of course, Judd Show (??), Neva Tucker (??). Neva Tucker (??) was a judge at the time. I think Judd Show (??) was--he was a judge also, in police court. Um, and practicing law was Charles Lundergran (??)--Lundergran, Lunder--Lunderman, uh, Willith Fleming (??), and a younger lawyer, Bill Evans (??), okay. Um, then I came in there, so there was Jerry O'Neal (??) and me, we formed a partnership. Um, yeah, so that's why I stayed, okay. I mean, gosh, there was fewer than a dozen, uh, black lawyers, fewer than ten. So that's why I stayed around here.

ARD: Um, so you formed a partnership, and that was your first law job?

WILLIAMS: Yes. As a matter fact, what I did was, um, well--in law school, the professors had said, uh, someone had told us, don't--don't expect to begin making money immediately. And for some reason, I'm thinking, they say, you want to practice for seven years before you actually start making money. Uh, and I said, no that's not going to apply here. I can't wait that long. Um, and I opened a small office about the size, two rooms, less than the size of this office here, the old Fincastle building, down on Third and Broadway. And, um, I mean you're not supposed to work two jobs, right? So I'm at the Human Rights Commission making this huge salary of about fifty-nine hundred dollars a year, okay. (laughs) And I'm married and have these children, right? And, I decided, 00:22:00well, I want to try and do both of these things, okay? And, so I opened a little small office at the Fincastle Building. I would meet my clients during lunchtime, okay. And after, uh, regular work hours, all right. And, as a matter of fact, the first fee I made was ten dollars, a night court, at, uh--at police court, and I gave it to my wife. I said, "I'm, I'm going to encase this, first, you know, first fee." And, uh, sometime later, I ask her, where was it? Okay, she's, "Dope, I spend it." (laughs) The second fee I made was, I went to a night court in Midway, Kentucky, off, how I got down there, I don't know. It was an actual trial, because--before the, uh--before a judge, who wasn't a lawyer. There was a time you didn't have to be a lawyer to be a judge. Police 00:23:00court, in Midway, Kentucky, 150 dollars. So I drove from here to Midway and back (laughs) for 150 dollars. This was my second fee. Uh, and, uh-- and then, you know, things, of course, obviously, picked up.

ARD: Were those criminal cases? Uh, obviously police court--

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those were criminal cases, yes.

ARD: Okay. So, did you have a specialty in criminal law that you kind of concentrated on where people were attracted to you, or you were just opening the door and saying, "Here I am"? (laughs)

WILLIAMS: No, I was opening my door, and I went over there to police court. Hey, I made--I had my cards made up, and you just get those cards out, and as I tell the young lawyers now, that the way I built my practice was, um, I got involved. I got involved in the community. Um, and, um--I went to as many--as many, uh, happy hours as I could find. (laughs) You know, just moved around, 00:24:00you know, just getting to know people. Um, and, when you--and as a black lawyer, and not just as a black lawyer, but other--white lawyers as well had to go through this, um, with some exceptions. Um, if you had nowhere to go, I mean, so--I didn't have an uncle, or--or a--a senior mentor who had a law office, and I could go in there and start working. You were out there on your own. And, um, that's what I did, I just--see, I was kind of naïve, thinking--you know, I was naïve thinking I could go to college. I was naïve thinking, that here, this black guy, this black kid from, uh, Verda--Harlan County, Kentucky, could be a lawyer, okay? Uh, and then, I was thinking that, you know, I can come out of law school and start making money, building a 00:25:00practice, all right? So my naivety was, um, my--one of my greatest assets. You know, I was--it was--I didn't think about the unrealistic; it was, you know, my dreams were, okay? And, um--and so, uh, I mean it just sort of happened, you know? I just found work. And, um--oh, I had three rules too. I said--when I started practicing law, I'm going to be well-versed in the law. Every case I got, I did, I thoroughly researched, disorderly conduct, trespass. Okay, Dava (??). Whatever it was, uh, homicide case, whatever it was, okay, I was thorough--I was going to be thoroughly versed in the law. I was going to know that law when I walked through that courtroom. Uh, and you see too, you had the stigma of this, uh--this attitude that, it--that blacks were less intelligent 00:26:00than white people. And see, I just didn't love--I mean, that's our society, and still is to a certain extent, okay? And so, um, even when I was in college, see I was determined that I was going to excel; I was going to be an honor student. And not give the white students, uh, an excuse to say, or reason to believe that they were in fact smarter than I was, okay? And so that just carried over into, yeah, my--my professional career. And so, you know, then--so I was going to be thoroughly in--thoroughly versed in the law. And not just for this obviously, but for effective representation. And then as a black lawyer, as I was, again, would say to younger black lawyers, fair or not, and of course it's not fair, but when you walk into the courtroom, you're carrying the whole black community 00:27:00on your shoulder, you really are. (laughs) Okay, and so--I mean, that's just the reality of America, all right? And so, I was not going to give room to, uh, anyone saying that, well, you know, he's--you know, uh, there he goes, you have a black lawyer, not as intelligent as a--white lawyers, and you know, blah, blah, blah, you know? Um, and so, um--so, they're--well-versed in law. I was going to charge high fees, whether I got them or not, okay? (laughs) Don't want anybody thinking I was cheap, all right? I'm going to be well-dressed. I was going to look successful, okay? And, like I said, I'm not boasting, but I'm probably the best-dressed lawyer in town, if not the entire state. (laughs) And I can say that, so--

ARD: So who's your tailor? (both laugh)

WILLIAMS: Well, that story, tailor, I could tell you a whole story about my 00:28:00tailor. Years ago, he had a warrant taken out for--not releasing -----------(??) long story. But anyway, no, I, um--I, you know, shop at Rhodes (??), primarily. Um, and, um--but no, my family--my mother, my father, it was just part of what my family was like, you know, being the--and dressing well. And I think, you know, you need to, as I said, I was going to look--look successful, and I liked clothes, you know? So those were my three rules.

ARD: Those are some pretty useful rules.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ARD: Um, tell me a little bit about one of your most memorable cases.

WILLIAMS: Oh gosh. Most memorable, until recently, was the James--well, there was the Oxmoor Shopping Center murder. My client was, uh, this beautiful black 00:29:00lady, um, you know--wonderful husband, and--and, uh, she had one--they had one child. And she's schizophrenic. She, um, thought that her son had been kidnapped, her son being six, seven years old. And so she went to the Oxmoor Shopping Center looking for him. There was this couple, a white couple, uh, an officer at Fort Knox, and his wife, and their child. Okay, and they were leaving the Oxmoor with their child, and she thought that they had her child. She's black, and they're white. She killed--she shot him and killed him instantly, okay. Obviously, mentally ill. Um, as a matter of fact, she played--pretended to be a fire--we had a one incident, there's an example of her, how ill she was, she pretended to be a fire, and, uh, told her son that he 00:30:00was a fire truck and had him urinate on her, okay? And, um--and of course, you know, that, that was the defense. And, uh, Judge -----------(??) Nicholson was the judge. And I asked for a--an instruction, I can't remember exactly what it was. But--oh yeah, it was an instruction that would let the jury know that if they acquitted her, that she would not be released, you know, into, uh--society, you know, again, just like that, okay? And, uh, he refused that instruction, and I can't remember whether he was correct or not; apparently he was. The law, as noted, can be, can be crazy and stupid. Uh, so anyway--and the jury found her guilty--uh, but they gave her the minimum. Like, I can't remember what the 00:31:00minimum was. It might have been ten years, it seems. Could have been fifteen, twen--I can't remember. But anyway, and in talking with the jury afterwards, and I never forget this, one beautiful redhead, middle-aged lady, okay, and, you know, asked her what did she think? And so, they said, we were just afraid to release her. That's the only reason they--they convicted her, okay? So it left a bitter tasted in my mouth, you know, it was--clearly, clearly, mentally deranged. I mean, she had this tragedy, okay? Don't compound it by sending someone away to the penitentiary. Uh, so that's--that was that case. Probably second most memorable case was the James Taylor case. This was a--a black man up at Smoketown. He, and, uh--some friends were at, one of their houses, 00:32:00getting high. Police came, and--excuse me, broke in, broke in, knocked the door down, and went in, and then while he was hand--handcuffed him. He's fifty-seven years old, weighed about 150 pounds. Um, fifty-eight years old, if I remember correctly. Um, also, um, mentally ill. Okay, um, but he had a broken box cutter, and mind, he's handcuffed. Then there was -----------(??), and there was this other fellow in the apartment. And, uh, while they were--had him handcuffed, one police--"Oh, he's got a knife." Okay, it was broken box cutter. Now, he's handcuffed behind his back. You have two young police officers, detectives, all right? Mike O'Neil, took out his gun and shot him thirteen 00:33:00times, okay? Thirteen times, handcuffed behind his back. -----------(??), why don't you just--just walk up and take--you could have slapped him, kicked him, anything. But executed him. They were not in--uh, he was not indicted, no criminal charges against him. Uh, we sued the police for excessive force, and to an all-white jury, except for an Indian man. And of course, they exonerated O'Neil, okay. Absolutely disgusting. And see, one of the great problems in practicing law, there, the reality, race, it's pre--very, very present. All right, so every--see, I know h--when I go--when I go to court, when I go to trial, right, see. Uh, I'm very confident, probably overconfident--I've been 00:34:00called arrogant, okay. I don't think I'm arrogant, obviously, but I'm--I'm very confident. Uh, if--the, you know, the only hurdle that I'm concerned about, the only hurdle I'm concerned about when trying a case, is the race factor. That's the only--that's my only concern. That jury would get--just be fair, all right. I said, I can win every--any case. But, always in the forefront of my mind is that race factor. And I'll never forget this, trying a case before Judge Show (??), uh, um--during the fourth (??) year examination, uh, this young lady asked to approach, and, you know, I had asked questions, having a bias, whatever it may be, whatever it may have been. And she said that she--she was from northern Kentucky. She said that she had been raised to believe that, uh, black people cannot tell the truth. She would never believe--just, doesn't make any 00:35:00difference, that any black witness, she would not believe. And that's the way she was raised, a true story. True story.

ARD: That's memorable.

WILLIAMS: Yeah. And then of course, the third most memorable -----------(??) case was Barbara Shanklin case; I'm sure you've heard about that case. You may--I know, you know, you're from Lexington, right?

ARD: I'm from Somerset.

WILLIAMS: Oh, okay, okay.

ARD: (laughs)

WILLIAMS: Anyway, the Barbara Shanklin case, which was, you know, probably the most celebrated case in the history of this community, I would think. I mean, it was constantly in the news, and she was a councilperson, and, um--and had two phases to the case, one before the ethics commission itself, which ruled against us, and then we were--tried the case before the council, and nobody expected us to win. It was--and a week did not pass that there was not something in the 00:36:00news about Barbara Shanklin. And this went on for a year and a half. As a matter of a fact, that's part of that box--(laughs)--

ARD: I was going to say, that's recent, I do actually--am recalling it.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

ARD: I'm just a little slow.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, that's part of that file, right, that--those four, five--four boxes there.

ARD: Um-hm.

WILLIAMS: And then part of it is in other rooms. I said, uh, but anyway. Um, and was such--it was such a farce, you know, this--um, it's just a farce. And it makes me angry right now when I think about it. And Judy Greene, who preceded her in her case, okay, just a farce. When you know--and I've been involved, I've--I've been an elected official. I know what goes on in politics. And them two, uh, prosecuted these two black women for some BS, that's all it was. But what is most disconcerting, and--and mystifying to me is how the 00:37:00Courier Journal with the, uh, presumed--uh, reputation perception we have of them as being a fair, and liberal, and progressive, how they pushed this, this was their agenda to get these black women, it makes no sense. And I show them like this evidence against Barbara--it was--it was crap. It was -----------(??)--and they were, uh, you know, I called it garbage and lies. And they didn't like my inscription of it, but you know, at this point in my life, you know, I mean--uh, I'm not--I'm not afraid, I'm not afraid or intimidated by the white power structure. Uh, you know, and another reality of our--of our world is that, uh, black people as a rule, while they may not admit it, are 00:38:00afraid of the white power structure, white people. They really are. Another thing, I'm pretty candid by the way, you know?

ARD: We love candidness.

WILLIAMS: Okay.

ARD: So let's get candid about, uh, your judgeship.

WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

ARD: Tell me, um, how you came to be a judge.

WILLIAMS: Okay, this is how that happened. Um, Charles Anderson, okay, had run for the circuit court, and won. And that left a vacancy in the third magisterial district. This was prior to the district court. Um, the magistrates--or the magistrate court, handled, uh, small claims civil matters, and landlord-tenant matters, everything that, the, um--that the civil district 00:39:00courts handle today, okay? And, there were--there were, uh, two individuals, two factions that was promoting two individuals to fill that vacancy, okay? And, the governor, Julian Carroll, um, didn't want to alienate, you know, either faction. And so, he asked them, well, what if I were to appoint Aubrey? And how I became, I mean, one of the--to belong to the Julian Carroll, you know, camp, I can't remember, um--but, I had--I had been the, uh--the Carter campaign's, uh, legal representative in Kentucky, the lawyer for the Carter campaign in Kentucky. Um, and I can't remember how. I mean, I'm just--I just 00:40:00can't remember. But anyway, so he appointed me to that position, and, um, if--it was for a year, I think, whichever one I told--talked to, I told you, I sat on the bench for a year. And, um, as they heard small claims, you know, civil matters, anything of civil nature, uh, that, um--then, whatever's being litigated, you know, was handling in the--in the district--in the magistrate court. Uh, and a lot of landlord and tenant cases. Um, but I never felt comfortable as a judge. Uh, that--it was just like me, okay? Um, see I'm a fighter. (laughs) You know, I--as, some folk can help me, in class, I'm a warrior, you know. You know, and then I didn't enjoy the--the bowing and 00:41:00scraping to me, you know, you're a judge, they treat you like you're God, and that's all, you know, simply not necessary. You know, and--and, um, I mean others may relish in that, but I didn't. I just--I simply did not like that. Um, and, um--so I--when, when my term was--was over, I could not wait, you know, to get that robe--uh, put that robe away. Uh, but I never had a case appealed. And I was the first judge, if not the only one, who, um, issued an award against a landlord in--a, a, a lawsuit, uh, for treble damages. I was the first one, and (laughs) interestingly enough, it was an intern who tried the case, interning at Legal Aid, a law student, that's right. And the landlords, in 00:42:00fact, were contemplating filing a lawsuit against me accusing me of not following the law. (laughs) You know, I find it hard to put people out of their home. Okay, um, but--um, and I'm sure, I--I ruled that, uh, if there was any room, uh, to rule in favor of the defendants, okay, the tenant, then I did. And as a matter of fact, when I left then, when I was in legislature, uh, as a matter of fact--let me see here, I forget, this fell off the wall. It fell off the wall, and I came in this was falling off the wall, and they, this, um, this 00:43:00was an award from, uh, David Armstrong, and the attorney general, and the prosecutors of Kentucky for my role in Aubrey Williams, representative, legislative initiative in the passage of House Bill 224 Landlord-Tenant Act. (laughs) I authored, uh, the curbs that are cut out, and accessibility to dealings, and so forth. That was my work, that was my legislation.

ARD: Well that's pretty, uh, memorable. Would you say that was your most, um, effective, or memorable part of, um, serving as a judge?

WILLIAMS: No, that was--when I was--when I was in legislature, yes, yes.

ARD: Oh that was legislature, okay.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, I wrote that law, that act, yeah.

ARD: Well tell me a little bit about that--that part of your career. How long did you serve in the legislature?

WILLIAMS: Uh, three-and-a-half terms.

ARD: Okay.

WILLIAMS: Um, and my district was gerrymandered, went from being 90 percent black to 49 percent black, and in one precinct, they say, right, that I didn't 00:44:00get a single vote. Just mathematically and logically that's impossible. In another one, uh--see, there's white precincts, I only got three votes. I lost the election by one vote. It was taken from me. It was, you know, crap. (laughs)

ARD: So, serving as a judge was not comfortable, and so you didn't decide to run a--a judicial campaign.

WILLIAMS: Right.

ARD: And do that, but you obviously ran campaigns as a--as a legislatures.

WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

ARD: Can you tell me a little bit about what that experience was like?

WILLIAMS: Oh, I enjoyed campaigning. It was different than it is today. Um, it was a lot of, uh--of, uh, face-to-face contact with, uh, constituents, and I walked--as a matter of fact, I will never forget, someone, I--they were struck 00:45:00by this man walking on Derby Day. I had a white suit on, (laughs) canvassing. (laughs) Okay. Uh, I mean, I did what you needed to do. You had to be successful, whatever it was. But, um, um--it was pet--going door-to-door, shaking hands, talking to people, you know, about the issues, and you know. Uh, I mean that's just--that--that--that was it. Um, that's what got--what got me involved, who got me involved was, a--a former judge, Delahanty, late Judge Bob Delehanty, uh, for some reason or another, he persuaded me to run for, um, C district commissioner, and I ran, and I--and I was winning (laughs) when the early returns came in, and--and my, uh, campaign literature consisted of a Xeroxed letter with my picture on it. (laughs) Um, Earl Harvey (??) is the one 00:46:00that won, won the race, and sometime after that, Darrell Owens (??) became C District commissioner. Uh, but then after that race, then I got involved in the legislative race for the House of Representatives, and became the first black chairman of a standing committee in the House of Representatives, in fact, Judiciary Criminal Committee. Um, the most memorable legislative experience was the drunken driving law. John Y. Brown was governor, and the, uh--this was during the race--the MADD mothers, you know, organization had come into, uh--come on the scene. And there was this race against drunken driving, and John Y. Brown, um, had a bill introduced--you know, called the "Slammer Bill," and it came before my committee, as chairman. And I wouldn't let it out of committee. And I was--um, needless to say, much maligned by the--by the media, 00:47:00um, television and written media. And there was this editorial in the Lexington Herald of me in caricature standing in a graveyard--a cemetery, uh, surrounded by tombstones, each of which read, "Killed by a Drunken Driver," and I had the "Slammer Bill" under my arm with a smile on my face. That was the most--disheartening thing, experience that I've had, and it was -----------(??), but the reason I was opposed to the bill, it was so reactionary; it was absolutely just horrible legislation. And then what I decided to do, and as I explained to Louis Winhorse (??) who led, uh, the Jefferson County, uh, Organization of MADD, I said, Louis, you know, I'm not against, uh, this legislation--I mean, legislating against drunken driving. But you have to 00:48:00have--you have to have sensible legislation. And so what I did was conduct hearings throughout the state, every section of the state, addressing and dealing with the problem, and then concluded the biggest problem with drunken driving was people, uh, had--alcoholism was--was the problem of it. It was a disease. And the reason the law now has in there mandated that you have treatment is because that was the main feature that I had inserted. And I researched, investigated driving, drunken driving legislation over the entire--not just nation, but the world. (laughs) Okay? And all of the evidence came back, okay? It's these people who are getting behind--generally speaking, the wheel of a car, okay, that are causing this havoc of people who are--are sick; they're alcoholics. And then you have to go to the root of the problem in 00:49:00order to seriously address it, see? And that's why that--that, uh, those features of that--of the law are in place, because I would not approve that--of that bill, you see?

ARD: It's pretty impressive.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah.

ARD: Um, let's move into talking a little bit about your community and family life. Um, you said that early on when you were building your practice, you went to all the happy hours, and you got really busy in the community.

WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

ARD: Tell me what your, uh, community activities are like now?

WILLIAMS: Oh, nothing. (both laugh)--uh, I served as president--well first, uh, I served as the president of the National Bar Association, that was the minority bar here. And we, uh--uh, did things such as, um--well that was back during busing, and you had, uh, disproportionate suspensions by black students, so on 00:50:00every Saturday, we would meet with students of families, uh, who have been suspended from school. Uh, so that was the service we were providing. We also, um--uh, got a grant from the American Bar Association that deal with prisoners' rights, but in the county jail, so we had inmate grievance mechanisms, okay? So we did that. Uh, as I said, we were just actively, really just active, ge--just involved in the community, giving back, you see, addressing--addressing, um, ills that affected, uh, the community--us as a people. Um, and then after that, I was president of the NAACP, um, serving there in that capacity for three--three terms, was always running my mouth, calling somebody a racist, making a lot of enemies--(laughs)--black and white.

ARD: What was the, uh, time frame of that?

WILLIAMS: Um, became national bar president probably around seventy-five, about seventy-five, because I never forget telling Judge Anderson, I said, you know, you guys aren't doing anything. Uh, I was a smart--smartass. (laughs) Um, and, um then, for following that, I became president of the association for, as I said, for five years, so through these--through the seventies, early eighties.

ARD: Very good.

WILLIAMS: I was a commu--I mean, I was an activist, you know? Because I--you know, the Courier Journal did a--did a story telling about the--the activists who were involved in that particular--in--in various campaigns during the time. And, and so, that's when I, uh--um, when they described me as "community activist," uh, so, I'm a troublemaker.

ARD: So are any of your children "troublemakers" in the same vein?

WILLIAMS: No. Uh, I have a daughter, uh--from my first marriage, uh, Angie. And Angie, um, is enjoying some great success in, um, this organization that she founded, "Sisters For Life." And it's an organization--it's a pro-life organization, but with a focus on the family, okay? Uh, both the husband, the father, family of both, and with a--a particular emphasis on, uh, conversion, Christian conversion, is very, uh, Christ-centered. Um, she had an abortion--had, had two abortions, which I was not aware of, and on this third abortion, she gone to a friend of mine, to secret--in secret, she was trying to 00:53:00borrow some money so she could have a third abortion. Friend called me, and so I talked to her, and asked her where was her husband--I mean, her boyfriend on this. I called him, and he said, "well I want to marry her, Mr. Williams, but she--you know, she--didn't want to marry, but I want to marry her." So I was--it was a shotgun wedding that I put the shotgun to my daughter. (laughs) To her head, all right, and they got married, and she didn't want to have the--the baby because she was afraid of embarrassing me, and because of my career. You know, and I--you know, it was nuts. Um, and so, um, so she had the--had the baby, gorgeous young lady now, she's, uh, twenty-seven years old now. And, um--and so, sometime after that, several years after that, she had begun to have problems about the abortion that she had. And so she had a real life 00:54:00existent--existential experience. And so, um, in every--you can find her every morning, except Monday, Monday and Sunday, outside the abortion clinic, down here on Market Street, okay. And she lives it. And one of the main components of her program, of her organization is the emphasis on abstinence. And then Angie, you know, even after they come out--she's a minister also, all right, when they come out of the clinic, okay, she attempts to counsel with them, okay, and so, many lives--what, lives have been saved, and souls have been saved because of that work, and she--about three or four months, she said, she was 00:55:00able to get their, uh--a home of four people, uh, who--or, have, um, you know, experiences with--[phone rings]--

ARD: Okay.

WILLIAMS: --um, with, um--uh, that, that area of their life, of their life, and that she has that--called a "house of refuge" now, and as a matter of fact, um, she gave me a great report yesterday, and she's having breakfast--she has had breakfast, and she had lunch, and then she had, uh, dinner reception, asking people to come and contribute to this house that they had bought over in, uh--over in Old Louisville, and, uh, they--and they said, the thing, the one that impresses me the most is these--these young people, okay, who are practicing abstinence. All right, and then my daughter, as I said, her emphasis on not, you know, just your typical pro-life organization, it's against 00:56:00abortion, all right? It's on saving souls, okay? I'm a minister also, by the way, right. Um, and now what amazes people though is that, when they discover that she is my daughter, okay, the most liberal, bleeding-heart liberal, progressive-minded legislator in the history of the general assembly--(laughs)--never voted for, and wouldn't--and even today would not vote for any legislation that would make--that interferes with a woman's right to choose. I mean, that's just--and I'm a minister now by the way, okay, I wasn't a minister on the legislature, but I--I feel very strongly--now, I'm very personally opposed to abortion. I believe at the moment of conception, okay, hey, you don't have--you--you don't have a right, a moral right, okay, to have an abortion, I mean--now, with exceptions, rape, incest, okay, or there's some 00:57:00seriously de--uh, um--deformity that may result, all right. Now, of course, it's an ethical issue that would never, ever be resolved to everyone's satisfaction, all right? Now say, but that's my personal view, but I will not allow my personal view to influence, uh, my decisions on whether a woman has a right to choose. I think it's--uh, it's--it's, uh--it's a decision that a woman has to come through--it's a matter between her and her god. Uh, you know, I mean--but anyway, so, now that Mitch McConnell said to her, when she goes to DC every year, he said, "I never would have thought that I would be standing taking a picture at a pro-life rally with a--a child, or daughter of Aubrey Williams." (laughs) And so that's what she does. My oldest son is a psychologist in LA 00:58:00[Los Angeles]. Another daughter's a teacher in E-town [Elizabethtown]. Uh, my youngest son is in the penitentiary, he, um--his mother and I were divorced; he was about--I guess five or six years old. She has--she--she--she, um--I was out of the church, and, um--she had a serious alcohol--alcohol issue, uh, uh, uh, problem. And, so, I left her, and I regretted for all of my life, although I have a wonderful wife the Lord sent me in spite of my, you know, making a poor decision. But anyway, he got caught up into drugs, and you know, ended up, as I said, you know, in--when he foll--he went to, uh, Arizona, he got in trouble out there, and it just sort of steamrolled, steamrolled. And I got him back here hoping that would--but, you know, it's too far gone, so he's doing time, uh, 00:59:00now. And that's--those are the children by my first wife. My wife, Phyllis and I, have two--Leah, who's right there. She's--and then Philip. There's Philip behind me on this picture here. Um, and Leah's pursuing her acting career, which means that her--four years after she's graduated from college, I'm still paying her tuition to live. (laughs) Uh, Philip graduated from Nova Southeast in May, and he's, you know, trying to find a job, find his way, but down there--down in the Fort Lauderdale/Miami area. I would love to be in his shoes, with his daddy paying his rent still. (laughs) This little fellow right here, Dion, he's my guardian child, guardian son. His mother, uh, did a--was a--um, an exotic dancer. And, um--striptease club, okay. (laughs) But anyway, she was 01:00:00dating, uh a--one of my deacon's son. And she had five children at the time, and, um--uh, my wife decided that she wanted this little eighteen-month-old to come and be with us on the weekend. I wasn't--I was just furious. And, uh, that lasted not that--that far, but then she decided that she wanted him with us through the week, and his mother would have him on the weekend. Now all that lasted about six months, and this kid moved in with us. I was furious. I raised two sets of kids; I wouldn't even look at him, all right. And--but it's my wife, so she wanted it, right? And then he became my best buddy. I love him to death. He's ten years old now, great kid, and, uh--you could see, a good-looking kid, you know, so.

ARD: That's--oh, it sounds like a very rich life with your family.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

ARD: Thank you for sharing that.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

ARD: Um, as we move towards closing out the interview, what I want to talk about is, um, the fact that, um, you kind of recognized early on your career, the low number of African-Americans practicing.

WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

ARD: Um, seems pretty significant. So I would ask, if you would be surprised to know that the number of attorneys is still fairly unchanged in the--in the legal field?

WILLIAMS: Not surprised at all. And recently, I went to a reception at the law school and discovered that--I think, they only have two or three black students in the entire freshman class, if I remember correctly. When I was in law school, I--I made my--I was the self-appointed minority recruiter. Yes. I actually did what I would do, when I--I was investigator for the Human Rights Commission, and when I--that I went around the state investigating cases of 01:02:00discrimination. And, um, I would go to Eastern; I would go to Murray. You know if I had cases in those vicinities, I would go to those schools and let the schools know that, hey, anybody interested in the law, go into law school, you know, to let me know, and we'll start getting them into law school. Um, and so yeah, I did that. And so, um--you, you, you know, it's sad. Excuse me. It's embarrassing to me that Kentucky has never had a black on the federal bench. That's embarrassing. And, when, when vacancies, uh, occur, until very recently, when Judge Edwards' wife's name was mentioned, only in passing, as perhaps maybe, uh, being a candidate to fill one of the, uh, expected vacancies, that's 01:03:00the first time a black had ever even been mentioned, all right? And I started to do a letter of protest, writing to addressing it, but that's, I--but anyway, uh, it's just inexcusable. You see, but they have the race factor. They have the race factor. It's very real. Last--the last judicial race, uh, Sadiqa Reynolds, very qualified, highly qualified, you know. And she got--got beat for election. She was--she was appointed by the governor. There was just no reason why--and the Courier Journal didn't--endorsed her opponent. Um, I mean that was just, just makes no f--sense. Yeah.

ARD: What, um--what do you think can be done to improve this?

WILLIAMS: White folks got to just--hey, as I said during the Shanklin case, people don't want to deal with--they don't want to talk about the race problem, all right? But put it out there. Talk about it. Be candid about it, all right? Don't sweep it under the rug, okay? Yeah, I belong to a white church, as you would call it, all right? And I--(laughs)--I have fun with it, you know, but, uh--you know. There are three blacks in the whole church, four blacks now, okay? And I deal with the race. I tell, that's a big problem, and people don't want to talk about it. All right, now why would--why in the world would the Lord send me to this white church, Aubrey Williams, and this, I mean you've got tea parties here, you got mostly Republicans, in here Aubrey Williams, the most liberal black in the, in the whole state--(laughs)--okay, belonging to Pleasant Grove Baptist Church, all right? I love them to death and they love me to death. It's amazing, you know? And so, you have--you know, I remember when I 01:05:00was seminary saying to one class, and we were dealing with issues in southern, uh--southern--the Southern Baptist Convention. And I said, here you have an opportunity that you've never--many of you, if not all of you, have never had before, I said, to ask a black man a question that's ever bothered you. And don't--don't feel restrained, okay, just whatever it is, ask me the question now. Okay, as my brother says, I don't want you to go to hell. And you're going to go to hell if--if you continue to treat me the way you do because of my skin color, okay? And America's still doing that. Louisville Kentucky still doing that, okay? Still doing that, see? And, um, but then you and I made a whole lot of people mad. That's--I, I lost my license. I was suspended from 01:06:00the practice of law for writing a letter to a judge calling him a racist for something he did. Whole another story. You know, Judge Williamson out in, out in Oldham County. Um, he, um--I was representing this mentally ill, young black kid who had burnt down a church, and, because of his mental illness. And I was in the legislature. Case was set for trial. I said, "Judge, now we're going to be in session then." It's oh, -----------(??), one of the gaps in my docket. I said, fine. Uh, a couple of weeks before the trial, I called Bill Proley (??), the prosecutor. "Now Bill, you know I'm in session, I'm gonna." And he said, "well Aubrey, you probably ought to make a motion." I said, "why is that necessary? -----------(??)." So I prepared a motion and sent it in, didn't personally appear, just to remind the judge that I'm--on the day of trial, this man had the jury there. He sent, uh, the sheriff to get my client's parents to 01:07:00bring them into court, he said, where is your lawyer? He did that. And, um, then they--then my--my client's father had just been released from the hospital, open-heart surgery, okay? And they called me. I had this emergency call, they brought me off the floor of the General Assembly of the House, and talked to his wife, told me, "what happened?" I said, "what?" And I sent a letter to him saying what he did stank to high heaven, and that's why, uh, black folk don't trust the judicial system now, because of what he had done. They suspended me from the practice of law for that, for ninety days, lasted five years. But, I was that smartass nigga who always calling someone a racist, and then they said, aha, we got him now. That's right.

ARD: It's a pretty, uh--

WILLIAMS: Yeah. And you know what I did? I didn't miss a day--I didn't hide--I missed out on one single day. I--in the midst of it, I got called to preach in the seminary, you know. I lost everything, okay? (laughs) Absolutely everything. Uh, but, you know, yeah, that happened. It happened.

ARD: Um, when you were in law school, you said you were the self-appointed minority recruiter.

WILLIAMS: Um-hm.

ARD: Is there something that you learned from that experience that you think would translate into how we prepare, um, students to get ready to enter law school, and to, um--to prepare our law schools in terms of recruiting? Were there some lessons learned there that you think would be useful?

WILLIAMS: No, just what I'm just talking about. Hey look, you're talking about justice; you're talking about dispensing justice, right? Now, what did I say 01:09:00was my only concern when I go to court, okay? My only concern when I go to trial is the race factor. Look, I see--if I see some blacks on the jury, I feel some comfort. If I see a black on the bench, okay, I feel some comfort, you follow? I feel some comfort, just what white lawyers feel every time they walk into a courtroom, okay? My client feels some comfort, okay, uh, when my client can see whites on the jury, black on the bench, all right? See, and that's the way--the way it should be, you know? Uh, so no, I didn't learn anything new, nothing that's new--the book--the wheel has already been made. You know, book's already been written. We're created equal, okay? And we've had--we have this history in this country, okay, of slavery, okay, the lingering effects of it, 01:10:00all right, you see? And then, you know, I just--I would just look right here for one of my clients, -----------(??), you know? See, and when people call me "arrogant," all right, I say that's not--I am a child of God, created in his image, just like every white person, okay? (laughs) I don't feel no ways inferior to somebody white. (laughs) As a matter of fact, I think I'm smarter than most of them (laughs), you know, Lord bless me, you follow? But see, I--you know, I--and now, I'm not the only--I mean, this was the Martin Luther King, okay, but you have many others whose names you never know felt the same way, but who were assassinated and destroyed in various ways. And that's what happened to me; I wrote the letter to the judge, you know. And so no, you know, I mean I just knew what I knew when I was a freshman--when I was editor-in-chief 01:11:00as a freshman, what did I write that editorial, you know what I mean? See, but then too, you have too few blacks who have the courage to stand up, okay, and to challenge it. Bert Klein, former president--former owner of Bank of Louisville, I never get him telling me--he said Aubrey, your biggest enemies are among your own people. Every time I'm on TV or in the newspaper, uh, railing against injustice and discrimination, and I'm making some hater over here in the newspaper, uh, railing against injustice and discrimination, all right, and I'm making some hater over here in the black community hate me more, oh, that black doesn't speak for me, or who does he think he is? So you have that kind of thing. Martin Luther King, some of his biggest enemies were black preachers. You follow? So, you know--

ARD: There's work to be done--

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

ARD: --across the board.

WILLIAMS: Absolutely.

ARD: So, um, let's finish up with a very--what, what Eric and I think are very 01:12:00significant questions--a question which is, what would you tell your--your younger self, what advice would you give your younger self?

WILLIAMS: It's in the Bible, all right, know when to speak, when not to speak. (laughs) Be wise, okay? Don't write a letter to a judge. (laughs) Okay?

ARD: That's pretty significant advice.

WILLIAMS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ARD: Thank you so much for your time. Um, I--I will ask you now, um, is there anything that you wanted to talk about that we did not touch upon?

WILLIAMS: No, we covered a lot.

ARD: We did indeed.

WILLIAMS: Yeah.

ARD: Thank you.

WILLIAMS: But you know, as I would say to--as I say to--as I say it in speeches, and I say it to my church, okay, see when you're dealing with a factor, the problem of racism, remember how women were treated, okay, and still 01:13:00are on a certain level, okay? So remember that, and then remember how, and now here we are in a country, now we have a lot of Latinos, okay, and see, and I would say, see these--these people, the women, the blacks, the Latinos, okay, the--and other minorities, they are the lepers of today, you follow? See, you have to remember that, and we're created in the image of God. You know that--and I came there, I'm going to let you go with this. My dissertation, the title of my dissertation was, "Economic Oppression: Assault on the Imago Dei," okay, and say, image of God. If you--see, God, this God's creation, okay, he put it here for his entire human race to enjoy, when any member of that race is 01:14:00denied or deprived equal and rightful just access to the goods thereof, that's an assault on God. That's assault on the image of God, which I--uh, suggested, uh, in my dissertation means community. We are made to be in community, and when you deny participation in God's creation, you're depriving and denying the members of that race enjoyment of community.

ARD: Well, that's a good way to end this interview.

WILLIAMS: (laughs)

ARD: Thank you so much.

WILLIAMS: You're welcome.

[End of interview.]