Interview with Jack Givens, December 4, 2015

MACY: First up, Jack, if you would just state your name and the years you were at UK.

GIVENS: Jack Givens, 1974 to 1978.

MACY: All right. Tell me a little bit. Who were your early influences as far as getting you involved in sports?

GIVENS: Well, I would have to say my brothers and the people in the neighborhood I grew up with. I, I didn't follow sports all that much growing up. I was outside, just ripping and running. And but we did play all the time. So, I think -- I think that is probably where I would have to go to. Just that we played all the time in the parks and I had at that time I had three older brothers, so I just tried to keep up with them.

MACY: And you said you grew up here in Lexington. What neighborhood? What parks did you play?

GIVENS: I grew up in the Aspendale neighborhood, it's on the east end of downtown, probably a ten to fifteen minute walk to campus, right where I grew up.

MACY: When did you kind of first then become aware of UK and UK sports and all that?

GIVENS: Well, that started in high school. When I when I got there and started having a little bit of success, I thought there might be an opportunity to go play college somewhere. Frankly, I never thought I'd be able to play at the University of Kentucky. So, I did at that time start looking around at schools like Louisville and Kentucky State. Some of those kind of schools. And, but it started to happen about the 10th grade and for sure by the 11th grade, because by the end of our 10th grade season, I was getting a lot of correspondence from colleges all over the country wanting to know if I had any interest in their school. So that's about when it started, around the 10th grade.

MACY: And you went to Bryan Station High School. So, you started playing on the varsity as a sophomore, even as a freshman, or --

GIVENS: Well, of course, at that time we had what we called junior high school, which was seventh, eighth and ninth grades. So, we didn't have an 00:02:00opportunity to play high school ball at that time. But my sophomore year, I was playing varsity basketball. Yeah.

MACY: And I've heard many people say that time for the city of Lexington was maybe the best time ever for basketball, high school basketball in the city.

GIVENS: Yeah, I -- I followed it ever since, and there's no way I could think of an era where high school basketball in Lexington was as good as it was at that time. I'm talking about Lexington, Tates Creek, Lafayette, Bryan Station and Henry Clay. We were producing college players on each of those teams every year. And the competition was just amazing. Competition was beyond anything I've ever seen since. Now there have been good teams. Lafayette with Dirk Minnifield, some of those kind of teams. But as far as all the schools in Lexington, 00:03:00the public schools. Lexington Catholic, who is huge now, was not as big as that time. But all the schools were great.

MACY: Now, I know James Lee played at Henry Clay. Who were some of the other city players that people would recognize their names?

GIVENS: Well, James Lee was at Henry Clay. He was their main guy, but they had a bunch of other good players. Ernest Doty, some of the other guys at Henry Clay. You look at Tates Creek and you had Tyrone Dunn, who was a great player Don Fussi back in those days, was good. Lafayette had Reid Eppley and some of those kind of guys that were really good players. And of course, you know, at Bryan Station, we had Cat Buck, Clay Cooley, Clay Newman, Jackson -- Anthony Jackson, Ted Hundley. I mean, we had bunches of guys who went on and had pretty successful college careers.

MACY: Yeah, Ted told me he was the star of that team.

GIVENS: Ted was the star (Macy laughs) in his mind. He was the star. Yeah (both laugh).

MACY: So, as you're getting more and more interest from the colleges, then who was your first contact with UK, who basically was recruiting you to come to UK?

GIVENS: Well, a lot of people ask me that. And of course, the coaches, Dickie Parsons, I remember him touching base with me early, early on in my career. Of course, Leonard Hamilton later on in my college career -- high school career -- was there Joe B., of course, was -- was always around. But, you know, playing in Lexington specifically. But anywhere in the state of Kentucky, I mean, we would travel and it didn't really matter where we went.

Whether it was Hazard, Kentucky, Mount Sterling, Kentucky, whether it was Richmond or Harrodsburg or Carroll County, Carrollton, wherever we went, the stands were full of just blue shirts, Kentucky blue shirts. I mean, it was blue and white everywhere. And I tell people I, and probably James Lee, 00:05:00also being from right here in Lexington, at that time I probably was the easiest recruiting job that the coaching staff ever had because I was recruited every night by the fans. I mean, they let me know immediately. I mean, I'm talking about every game. They let me know that they wanted me at the University of Kentucky. And -- and that leaves -- leaves a strong impression in your mind when you go -- there's standing room only, everywhere you go. And everyone has on blue and white, and they're screaming your name and letting you know they want you to be a part of University of Kentucky basketball.

MACY: Would -- had your schedule not taken you out of the city, would you think it still have ended up the same way? Or just being -- because you went through the entire state and saw the support?

GIVENS: And that's a good question. At that time, in particular, there were stronger --wanting me to attend the University of Kentucky. But there were a whole bunch of people, but specifically in the African American 00:06:00community, who didn't think the University of Kentucky was the right place for James and myself. Just simply because of the history of Kentucky basketball. I mean, they -- there were a bunch of folks that I went to church with every Sunday who talked, said, "You need to go to Louisville. You need to go here. You need to go there. Kentucky State is right down there. They will want you there." So, I don't know that it would have been any different decision, finally. But, you know, it wasn't 100 percent for James and me to go to UK. That's for sure.

MACY: What was the -- why did you end up picking the UK on top of that? Was there one deciding factor? Was that it? And if so, did you have much discussion with James, like, "Let's go together." Or any of that, like --??--

GIVENS: You know, the interesting thing is James and I went to church together every Sunday. I mean, his dad was a pastor at Greater Liberty Baptist Church. So we were at church every Sunday together. We played against each 00:07:00other when we had to, but we were good friends even back before we made our decision to go to University of Kentucky.

And another interesting point is, you know, when I was a sophomore, I started school at -- at Henry Clay High School. So, James and I would have been on the same team, had I not moved to the Bryan Station district. Now, you talk to Al Pruitt, who was the coach at that time, and he gives Coach Barlow a lot of trouble saying that he helped my family move to that neighborhood, so I could be in that area. That is not true. But -- but James and I started out together at -- at Henry Clay, and I often think what those teams would have been like. But yeah, we talked a little bit about it - going to college together.

My real decision-maker was I was -- I was kind of a mama's boy, you know. I mean, if I wanted a good meal, if I wanted my laundry done, anything 00:08:00like that, that was going to be important on the decision I made. And I was close to my family. So, I wanted to stay home. I, going through high school and even after my senior year, I had never been on an airplane. So, getting on an airplane, taking visits to UCLA or some of the other schools that recruited me heavily and wanted me to go, was not -- was not something I wanted to think about, either. So, it was just a convenience to stay at home. I wanted to be close to my mom and my family. And, you know, I thought when it came to basketball, it was gonna be hard for me to find a college any better than the university. So, all of those figured into me staying at home.

MACY: Who declared first: you or James? To decide to come --

GIVENS: -- Uh, I think I did. I think I made the decision. But we were very close to making a decision about the same time. I mean, and the fact of the matter is, and it's been a few years ago since that, I don't know if 00:09:00I did or he did first, but we were very close and made the decision, I would say, almost together.

MACY: So those battles on Saturday night didn't affect your friendship come Sunday at church?

GIVENS: No, no, no. We had bragging rights for the week, that's for sure, until we played again. But -- but, you know, we talked a little bit about high school basketball. I mean, it was -- I had a number of guys on the other teams who went to that church, as well. So, I would see Tyrone Dunn and some of those guys at church, as well. And -- but it was always fun. It was always fun talking about it. The folks who went to those church -- went to church with us -- they were just --they just were extremely happy that they had all that much talent in the same church.

MACY: You touched on earlier, you know, as I look back, I mean, your young and influential years were the mid-60s and early 70s, and kind of talk to 00:10:00me a little about the cultural climate, not just of Kentucky, but the entire state of -- I mean, in '65 we had the Watts Riots and the civil rights movement going on, in 70s the shooting at Kent State with the Vietnam protests and those type of things.

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: Do you recall much of that, when it was going on?

GIVENS: You know, I was I was aware of all of that. All of that was going on, which was one reason why I didn't think playing at the University of Kentucky was -- was an option for me. I mean, number one: at that time. I didn't know if I was good enough, but I didn't know if it was a real serious option because of all of that stuff that was going on. And, you know, you hear stories about Adolph Rupp as a kid and how he didn't recruit black players and he didn't want to have you at the school. I later found that out to be not the case, but --because he told me personally that he was glad I was there and he would have recruited me as well, even though Coach Hall was there at the time. But yeah, all of that kind of came into play. But and then the other thing, you 00:11:00know, I -- I couldn't look at the University of Kentucky play and see anybody like myself. They didn't have any black players.

So, I couldn't -- I couldn't put myself in that role. It was easier to go to Louisville or Vandy or some other places around, UCLA and see guys who I could relate to better. So. So it was a it was a difficult decision, particularly for that time period where we were going to go to school. But as I say, once I got to my high school years and Number one: started really getting recruited by the University of Kentucky. But Number two: by getting out in the state and seeing that, hey, man, this is not as bad as what you hear. It got a whole lot easier for me to make that decision.

MACY: You know, I think sometimes overlooked, I mean, we're talking 1973-74 when you're being recruited --

GIVENS: --Mm hmm--

MACY: And at that time, even there were still a very limited number 00:12:00of black student athletes, not just at UK, but in the whole southeast--

GIVENS: --in the whole Southeastern Conference, you know, I never looked at -- the only other school that I looked at seriously was Tennessee. Tennessee was the only [indicates air quotes] basketball camp I ever went to. It was at University of Tennessee. Ray Mears and those guys down there, I mean, they made it clear that they wanted me at the University of Tennessee. They offered me to come to camp, which I'd never gotten that offer at the University of Kentucky. They met me at the bus station. I got -- we didn't have a car, so I got on a Greyhound bus and I rode the bus down to Knoxville. They were waiting there for me. I mean, they made it clear they wanted me at the University of Tennessee. And frankly, Tennessee would have worked, because I could have driven there and never had to get on a plane and fly, you know, at that particular 00:13:00time, which was big for me.

But -- but once again, after I really got to my junior year of high school and the University of Kentucky really started recruiting me and the fans, I'd get letters every day. It was -- it was a pretty easy decision once my senior year was done where I wanted to go to school.

MACY: And Tennessee, at that time had, I guess, Bernie and Ernie were there.

GIVENS: Well, they were coming in at that time. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Same class. Uh -- but they had some other African American basketball players at the time. So. So once again, that's one of the few schools, maybe the only other than University of Louisville, the only close, major college that I thought seriously about. Now, I took a visit to EKU. But once my junior and senior year came around, I was looking at, you know, places like Tennessee and 00:14:00Kentucky and University of Louisville a little bit.

MACY: So you decide to go to Kentucky your freshman year. You come in and there's six seniors on the squad. Grevey, Jimmy Conner. Mike Flynn.

GIVENS: Yep.

MACY: Jerry Hale.

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: Guyette, Joe Smith --

GIVENS: G.J.

MACY: Is that a little intimidating to have that many upperclassmen as a freshman coming in?

GIVENS: Oh, it was it was a LOT intimidating. I mean, boy, our practices, I thought I'll never be able to play with these (Macy laughs) guys, you know? I mean, the real good thing is they were all good guys. Number one, they were great guys. And, you know, I was playing behind Grevey. And, you know, I learned as much basketball from him as I ever have. They were just good guys. And one of the guys we had, you know him very well, who really, really made a difference was Reggie Warford. You know, Reggie was wonderful to play with. He was a junior at that time , so he was experienced. He had been around. He knew the 00:15:00ropes. He knew campus and he knew where to hang, if you wanted to hang. He knew where to eat. I mean, all of those things. But the good thing is we had really, really good guys on that team. Now, the practices were just unbelievable how difficult it was for myself. You know, Robey was coming in. Mike Phillips was coming in. And of course, James and I. And then Danny Hall was coming in at the same time. So, if you think every day about going against those guys that we had to go against every day, there's only one thing you could do -- is get, well, two things. Either get better or either go somewhere else. I mean, those are the only two options you had. And we grew, as -- our freshman year. We took a huge leap from the time we got there to the time those seniors left.

I mean, not just how to play basketball, but how to think basketball and playing with a bunch of seniors, you're able to learn that.

MACY: At that time, freshmen had only been eligible to play on the varsity for a few years,

GIVENS: A few years.

MACY: And in practice sessions, did you still have matchups where sometimes the seniors would play against freshmen?

GIVENS: Oh, without a doubt. Yeah, I think Grevey, that group, that group of seniors was the last freshman team that Kentucky had. I think, so. But -- but yeah, we had some real good matchups. Now, Robey pretty quickly moved into the starting lineup. So, he was there with Guyette at the four spot. Robey at center. Guyette. And then you had Grevey at the three and you had Jimmy Dan and Mike Flynn. Those were the starting five. Soon I became kind of the sixth man on that team. So I would play a lot with the with the varsity's team as well, with those seniors.

But I mean, working against Kevin Grevey every day, I'm telling you, it is amazing. And Greve played a big part in me going there just simply 00:17:00because he was a lefty like I was. He played -- played the small forward spot. So, he was -- Greve was one of my favorites. So, to get a chance to work with him every day was really, really good, on one hand, but it was tough on the other, because I was playing against the best player on the team. But I learned how to play. You know, because Greve would say to me sometimes, "OK, now here's how we're going to play today." (Macy laughs) You know, "I'm going to let you score. I'm going to play like I'm guarding you, but you gotta let me score." (Macy laughs)

And you know, that way we didn't get hurt. But that's one of those lessons you learned playing with seniors, you know? So I learned how to disguise playing defense until game time. And I probably thought I was getting over with some. But I'm sure Joe B. and Leonard and those guys knew what was going on.

MACY: Well, the '74-75 season , your team goes twenty-six and five. 00:18:00And the first loss that year has kind of turned into a kind of infamous game here in Kentucky, as far as, it was in Bloomington, a 98-74 loss to IU and that was the head tap game--

GIVENS: Yeah--

MACY: Or what ever you want to call it --

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: What do you recall about that?

GIVENS: Well--

MACY: Where were you when it all happened and what was going on?

GIVENS: You know, it was it was my first road trip. I mean, I think it was our first game in another team's gym, particularly a team that was ranked maybe number one in the country at that time, which I think they were they were. They were great. They had Kent Benson, Scott May, Quinn Buckner, Steve Green and Bobby Wilkerson was the starting five. I mean, they had all of those guys went on to the NBA and probably to three or four of them -- I know three or four of them were All-Americans. OK? So -- so, that was that was tough in itself.

But I don't -- you've been to Bloomington and you know how that 00:19:00building is. I mean, those seats in that building, most places go out like this with their seats [gestures with arms angling gradually upward]. I mean, it felt like they went straight up. So even the ones in the upper arena were kind of hovering over the court. I mean, it was just the eeriest feeling. I mean, for sure at that point I'd ever heard -- I've ever felt. I mean, it was, it was.

But I remember playing in that game and they were beating us every way a team could. I mean, the score was probably a twenty or twenty-five point game, but that was the good part of the game. That -- all the other stuff, that hitting with the forearm and the moving screens and grabbing your jersey and pulling you down. All of these things that you're not supposed to do in a non-contact sport, they were doing. And I -- I remember that one of my first shots, I went in to shoot it and I thought, "Man, I'm going to go in here and get this one." And Scott May just went up and blocked my shot, slapped it. It went out. It landed about half court . Buckner picks it up, throws it to Wilkerson, he 00:20:00goes down and slams it, and I'm running down the court beside Scott May, and he looks over at me and he says, "Boy," said, "don't you bring that weak stuff in here no more." I said, and I thought, "Oh, I'm just a little kid from Lexington. Man, what are you doing to me?" (Both laugh) I mean, but that's the way it was.

And then when I was on the floor, when Bobby Knight kind of was griping about a call and they're up 30 points and Joe B. hollers down, "Bobby! Sit down! You're killing us. What are you complaining about?" You know, and they come face to face and he hits them in the head. And, you know, by that time, I'm not up under the bench, but I'm trying to find a place to get out of the way, you know? But it was -- it was -- it was -- it was one of those moments that -- not just infamous, and -- but it helped define our team for the rest of the year.

That game Rick Robey was playing against Kent Benson and Kent was 00:21:00beating Rick every way you can possibly beat him. I'm talking about elbowing him, forearm to the neck. Everything you could possibly do to a guy he was doing. And we played North Carolina the next game and North Carolina had Mitch Kupchak. And I've never really felt sorry for an opponent, but what Rick Robey did to Mitch Kupchak. After that game, because Benson beat him up, I felt bad for Mitch Kupchak, but that game kind of defined us the rest of the year. And once again, we took some huge steps after that and became a pretty good basketball team.

MACY: Kind of a turning point for that season.

GIVENS: It was absolutely a turning point. And we -- we changed our way of practice. We changed our way of thinking. You watch that film five or six or seven times. I don't remember how many times we had to watch that game film. And, you know, you can complain and you can [shuffles his hands 00:22:00around]. But once you look at it on film and they put it in slow motion and you see that forearm come and hit you in the face, it leaves a mark. And so it changed us for the rest of the year.

MACY: The team had no problem scoring points. If you count the exhibition games, I counted: there were nine games where you scored over a hundred points. And was -- did that that change in style -- just try to be a little bit more up and down?

GIVENS: Yeah. We just had a lot of good players and we had guys who could score. I mean, Grevey was -- was a scorer. Jimmy Dan could score. Mike Flynn could score. Bob Guyette wasn't really noticed for his offense, but -- but he could score. And Robey learned how to score. And then I come in and I get my 10 or 12, you know.

So, it was just one of those teams that knew how to put up numbers and liked to get up and down the floor. And we had guards who could push the ball up. And we had a bench with Reggie and with Larry Johnson and Merion Haskins. 00:23:00And you mentioned some of the others. G.J. and some of those guys who G.K. -- G.J. could shoot it better than anybody who's ever played there. So, we just had a lot of guys who could score. We rebounded well and then we got into transition. So, we played a fun style of basketball.

MACY: It was kind of unusual that you played three times in Freedom Hall in regular season ---??--- North Carolina, Kansas and Notre Dame.

GIVENS: Notre Dame, yeah.

MACY: And how was that different, from a player's standpoint, than playing at the Coliseum at that time and going, did you have open practices? Even ---??--- the other games.

GIVENS: Oh my. Yeah. You know, now Freedom Hall for me, being from Lexington, James and I -- I mean, we played our state tournament in that building. So, we were familiar with being in that building because of state tournaments and all-star games and that kind of stuff. But it was -- we really loved going there. I mean, you're talking about open practice. I mean, it would be full, sold out. I mean, not sold out because they didn't sell tickets, as 00:24:00far as I know. But it would be full for practice. We would spend probably two or three hours after the game -- after that practice session -- signing autographs for the fans who were there. It was an opportunity for us to get out in the state, which we like to do. Coach Hall loved to do it, and take the game to the people. It opened it up -- opportunity for folks who couldn't get to the Coliseum or to Rupp Arena to see the games, that opened it up for those folks as well. So, we enjoyed playing there. It was it was definitely a home court for us.

MACY: I talked about the team is 26-5 with the IU loss. I believe you lost to Auburn and twice to Tennessee during the regular season, which you're talking about --that was the school that really recruited you heavily.

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: You remember anything about those games?

GIVENS: Well, we lost. We lost actually, we lost at LSU. They had Rudy Macklin and Kenny Higgs, who was a senior at the same time that James and I 00:25:00were seniors, and we were on the all-star teams together. I think --

MACY: --This is now, I'm sorry, the '76-77 --

GIVENS: -- Oh, '76-77 team.

MACY: We'll get to that.

GIVENS: Okay.

MACY: So, anyways, you get to the tournament.

GIVENS: Yeah, and the --

MACY: And you start out in Tuscaloosa. Your first round game you take on Marquette, beat them handily. Go to Dayton, beat Central Michigan and it sets up that rematch with the IU game. Talk to me. Tell me a little bit about, one: you didn't have a lot of time for preparation because it's short term --

GIVENS: Right, right.

MACY: It's right after Central Michigan.

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: But what was Coach Hall, what was he saying to you as a team and what were you guys saying among yourselves? Because I know players -- what, the coach says is one thing, there's sometimes what players say to each other can be different at times.

GIVENS: Well, you know, we -- we were confident. Number one: we wanted to play them again because they totally spanked us the first time we played them. So, we wanted to play them again , which was a good thing. And then Coach 00:26:00Hall had a confidence about him that just kind of came over [gestures with arm movement] to us as players.

But, you know, in the locker room before the game, I mean, it's -- it's -- it's been said I mean, and it was true. I mean, he put three or four points up on the board was his whole pre-game speech. Number one, he said: "We're going to -- we're not -- we don't want to hurt anybody, you know. So we're gonna -- we're gonna -- we're gonna play fair. But if they'd set an illegal screen, you're gonna hit him back. Number two: you know, we're gonna win this game.

And I'm -- I'm not really 100 percent sure how everything went, but we're gonna win this game. Number three, he said: "Guys, you really, really need to be careful with those scissors, because when you go up and cut these 00:27:00nets down, I don't want any cuts on the fingers because we're gonna have to play here in another week. So just make sure when you're cutting those nets down that you don't cut your fingers. So be careful." And number four, he said: "When we get to the state line and you see all this, just a fleet of police cars there, don't be scared. They're just gonna escort us to -- to the coliseum where we're gonna have a hellacious celebration and we're going to enjoy this." I mean, that's all he said. He said, "Now go play ball."

I mean, that was his scouting report and it happened just like he said. So. So that was that was fun. For the seniors on the team, I mean, I wish that was the Final Four game, that was the championship game, because for them, uh, that was the championship. Having a chance to play them again and beating that team that spanked us so badly early in the year. That was that was really big for them. So I haven't played many games, Kyle, where I would be happy to just sit 00:28:00back and watch as a player, as a part of the team. I haven't. That might be the only time I can ever remember sitting back and saying, "Guys, y'all go do it," to the seniors, because it was their game and they played that well. I mean, it was just a wonderful ball game to be a part of.

MACY: What about halftime? You came in? I mean, it seemed like I was -- side note, I was at the Indiana High School State Tournament and they had the score posted up on the corner scoreboard. So, you kind of kept track of the game. But what was the talk at halftime? It seemed like back in the game on the scoreboard anyway, I was watching this back and forth --

GIVENS: It was back and forth, but we were playing great. I mean, we had played a good first half of basketball. We had matched them physically, because they won a lot of games, because they just beat down people. I mean, they set moving screens. I mean, they were physical. And we were matching that, maybe to the point that we went a little bit too far. But, Coach Hall just said 00:29:00continue what you're doing. He didn't have a whole lot to say. Just simply because we had played well, I think we understood the challenge. We understood the reward would win in that ballgame. So just keep doing what you're doing, was about all he had to say.

MACY: Kind of quiet in the locker room afterwards?

GIVENS: After the game? The only time I think we were quiet in there and I don't know that we were quiet was when Coach Hall had his after the game talk, his postgame comments. But I don't know that it was quiet in there then. I mean, everybody was just screaming and celebrating. I mean, it was just I mean, I still see Mike Flynn up on that ladder with those nets, holding them up, shaking those nets. I mean, I still see that like it was yesterday. It was just a great feeling. But that that kind of told everybody what we felt at that time. I mean, we were ecstatic that we had won that game.

MACY: Did you have any concern after being up and playing so well, then you go to the Final Four. To have maybe a letdown? You take on Syracuse in the semifinal game.

GIVENS: Yeah, we did have a letdown, particularly the seniors. They -- they just could not quite get it going. Grevey and Flynn. And, and I -- fortunately for me, I mean, I had twenty-six or something in that game. So, I played a lot of minutes because some of our main guys weren't quite -- weren't quite there. That's why I wish that game against Indiana was our final. But they had their --- (??) --- game. The seniors, they picked it up late in that game and got it going and we won that ball game. But they were certainly there against UCLA.

MACY: You went out with 95-79 and it sets up the final game with John Wooden and his UCLA squad.

GIVENS: Yep.

MACY: The day in between the semifinals and finals, Coach Wooden announces he's going to retire after the final. Well, what was going through your 00:31:00all's mind then? You think that was gonna have any impact at all? Or, looking back, obviously it would. But, at that time, did you think anything about it?

GIVENS: I thought the thing that was going to be the big difference was that we were playing in San Diego, which is an hour and a half, two hours from Los Angeles. I knew that was going to be a factor because UCLA would have all their people there. And course, they were good. I mean, they had won championships and everybody knew UCLA. So I thought that would be the biggest factor. I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the retirement. Looking back on it, of course, it did make a difference. And that might have been the thing that got them over the edge because we played well. And I still think had we played anywhere other than San Diego, we would've won that game. But -- but -- but at the time, I didn't think a whole lot about the significance of it, but I think it made a difference.

MACY: You have a lot of stories about that game. Because officials 00:32:00knew it was the last game and they didn't give him a technical they should have. Cheerleaders were shaking the basket when Grevey was shooting a free throw at some point late in the game. --

GIVENS: Mm hmm. Mm hmm --

MACY: --any of that stuff --

GIVENS: Well, you know, I don't -- I don't -- I -- I do think -- there might -- should have been a technical foul called. I do believe that, when he came out and was screaming at the officials and walked all the way out on the floor. And I mean, I think a lot of other coaches would have gotten a technical foul. Whether his retirement played into that or not? Speculation. I don't know. But I don't remember shaking the basket. I remember Greve missing free throws that he normally doesn't miss.

But the fact of matter is, you know, if you're gonna lose to somebody in a championship game with the career that Coach Wooden had, I could 00:33:00stomach losing to him in that game and that circumstance a little better than I would have had we lost to someone else.

MACY: When you look back at your freshman season, I mean, you were just talking about being a kid from Lexington, Kentucky --

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: -- and all of a sudden you're playing the national championship game. What have you said? Twenty-six in the final game. Were you kind of amazed at how much happened in just one year's time?

GIVENS: Hey, I thought that was the way it was every year. I mean, I didn't know any different (laughs). I mean, I thought, hey, I'm going to have four good years here, man, I mean, shoo -- we go to San Diego and we won a championship. My brother lives -- that lived at the time in San Diego. So, I got to see him and his family and hang out with Mike. So that was all good. I thought, man, this is gonna be a fun, fun ride for four years. Of course, we found out that it wasn't that easy.

But yeah, I mean, I couldn't believe that we had started out a little 00:34:00bit slow early in the year. And lose that game to Indiana. And you're right. We lost to Tennessee twice that year. And you're right. To get to that point. All the things we had to do to get there was -- was really pretty special, particularly where we started, got beat and we took it in Indiana early in the year.

MACY: Well, that takes us into your sophomore year. And you find out kind of quickly that it's maybe not gonna be all sugar-coated. It'll be -- because you said Reggie Warford is the only senior on the squad. Bring in freshmen Dwane Casey, Truman Claytor, Bob Fowler, and Pat Foshee would start the year with the squad. You lose three of your first five --

GIVENS: --right--

MACY: How are practices? And how was Coach Hall at that point?

GIVENS: Well, yeah, I don't know that you want to know what Coach was like [smiling], but we thought we were practicing hard. We really did. I mean, in our minds, we were practicing. And, but, you know , coming off of that 00:35:00championship run that we made, even though we came up a little short, we were pretty special around campus and around the state. I mean, we were pretty special. So, we -- we did regress a lot as far as our work -- work habits were concerned. We weren't playing, we weren't challenging as much as we should. Fundamentally, we weren't -- weren't very good. We learned very quickly the value of having a lot of seniors who've been there, done that. So, we -- we had a lot to learn all over again about how to play. And only until we were 10-10, and on the verge of becoming one of the very few teams at the university who played less than 500 basketball, only at that time did we --

MACY: So, so early in the year. I'm going to start a statement. I 00:36:00want you to finish it. You're in practice, and I can just hear Coach Hall say it: "Just take your hat off--" (both laugh)

GIVENS: Well, I don't know if I can finish that on this show! (Macy laughs)

MACY: Fall back in it (laughs).

GIVENS: Yeah. It had something to do with relieving yourself. And so that you can say you did something today, you know, but that's as far as we'll go with that.

MACY: OK, so one of the first three losses or three of those the first five games with three losses. One of those losses was to an Indiana team.

GIVENS: Mmm-hmm.

MACY: And I, again, was a spectator. I mean, watching that game on TV. And if I recall, that's the one when Kent Benson kind of with the fist, tipped the ball in at the buzzer to send it overtime.

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah, we had them beat.

MACY: And the significance of that is that they went on then to that undefeated season.

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah. They had us beat in that game. I mean, I'm sorry 00:37:00-- we had them beat. We probably should have won that game. We played them as well as any team played them all year. And I think that contributed some to us going the other direction as much as anything, because we were thinking in our mind, "Hey, we are pretty good again, you know," which, in turn, meant we didn't necessarily feel like we had to work as hard. We didn't play defense like we knew we had to play defense. But -- but that was a great game. And yeah, it was a fluke shot that tied it up. And once we got in the overtime, they were you know, they were seniors and they were good. So they won the game. But, you know, they were undefeated the year before and we gave them the only loss. And then the year they -- of that game, they went on to become undefeated and win the championship. So we probably forced them to change the way they were doing some things, too.

MACY: -- which I believe it's correct that you can't actually hit a 00:38:00ball with your fist.

GIVENS: Well, that's -- that's probably true, as well. And I had never thought about that. But you're right. But --

MACY: Anyways.

GIVENS: You know, it's one of those things that you can say, hey, that should have been called.

MACY: So, then you talk about the up and down of the season. Well, again, you start conference play and you lose your first three games. Is Coach Hall changing any of his attitude or just banging away at you more in practice?

GIVENS: He's -- he's just banging away at us. His favorite statement -- one of his favorite statements that year was, "And you guys think you're working hard? You really believe you're working hard?" And we spent a lot of time after that looking back at some old video, old film from the year before, and he would say, "This is what playing hard is about." But in our mind, we were doing it. We were playing hard. We were giving 100 percent. Everything we had to give we were giving. But in reality, we weren't.

MACY: How would you compare the physical play from the year before's practice to your sophomore year?

GIVENS: It wasn't there. Number one: we were young. And when I say, "We," I'm talking about the nucleus of that team: Rick and Mike and James and myself. I mean, we were young. So, for us to teach those guys how to play --you mentioned the really good class that came in. We couldn't do it. Now, as far as Reggie and Larry Johnson and Merion Haskins -- those kind of guys who had been there, done that -- that were juniors at that time. And Reggie was a senior. Now, they were working hard. I mean, I look back on it, once we finally started really playing better later in the year. And I realize, man, those guys been playing hard all year long, you know? And Coach Hall just stayed on us. He stayed on us.

And really, I'm not much for team meetings, you know. Player only meetings. You know, I'm not much when it comes to that. But we did have a meeting after we were 10 - 10. Players only, after we'd lost a game and become gotten to 10 - 10. We had a meeting. We didn't publicize it. It was no big deal except that we got in a room and we said, we gotta -- we gotta start playing better. And we did. That's the only time I've seen a positive result from a players-only meeting. But we had one and it was effective because it changed us immediately.

MACY: You lost February 14th, to Vanderbilt by 4, 69-65. But after that, you didn't lose. So--

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: Was that basically what it was that was meeting and everything changed?

GIVENS: That was the meeting after that Vandy game. And I kind of get the feeling that that game was down, that at Vandy, I'm not 100 percent sure

MACY: It was.

GIVENS: It was at Vandy. And we -- we went in the locker room and I think we sent word through one of the -- it was either Mike Murphy or was Don Sullivan -- one of the managers to have the coaches just to stay out a little while. We told them not to come in the locker room. And -- and we had -- we had a serious, serious conversation about what we were going to do the rest of the year, and --

MACY: And, so, it wasn't so much finger-pointing as it was just--

GIVENS: No, no. There was no finger-pointing. There was none of that, because you lose as a team. You know? I mean, so it wasn't finger-pointing. It was like, man, what are we --what are we doing here? I mean, what are we gonna do the rest of the way? And Robey had a lot of words to say that evening, that 00:42:00game and Reggie had a lot of words to say (both laugh). And if you know Reggie, you know what I mean. He had a lot of words to say at that time. And I wasn't a real vocal kind of guy, so I soaked it in. But we all got the message. And -- and I don't even know that Coach Hall came in and said a whole lot after that game, after we opened it up. But -- but we did change and it started in practice. I mean, it really did. And when we started having guys on the floor, we started all those little things that we hadn't done all year, but those things that led to success the year before. I mean, we started doing it. Our scrimmages in practice, they took a huge step forward after that.

MACY: Well, as you said, after that game, you didn't lose the rest of the season. But one game in particular I want you to talk a little bit about is the last game , varsity game. Men's basketball official game, I guess.

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: Other than later on in the NIT. But a regular season game to be played in Memorial Coliseum.

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: You played Mississippi State.

GIVENS: Yep. Yeah. That was that was one of those games where, you know, that -- that rich, rich, rich history of all the players who had played, the University of Kentucky players who had played in that building, was the only reason we won that ballgame. I mean, we -- I think we were down, what, five? With less than a minute or so to go. I don't know. I mean, something really strange like that, that you just don't win those games, especially without a three point shot. And we found a way to tie that game up, I think, and go into overtime. Did we win that in overtime, or was it --

MACY: Yeah --

GIVENS: --Yeah, we -- we went into overtime in that game and --

MACY: Didn't Reggie hit a real long shot at the buzzer to send it to overtime?

GIVENS: Reggie -- Reggie made a shot that was just unbelievable that -- that -- that sent us to overtime in that game. But it was just one of those games that you don't --and when it's over, you don't really know how you won it. But you know you had a lot of help and you know all those baskets that Dan Issel and Louie and some of those guys made in that building. I mean, they were there shooting balls in that night for sure. It was a special, special game.

MACY: Well, a future coach on the Kentucky staff, Joe Dean, was actually on that Mississippi State --

GIVENS: Yes, Joe Dean was.

MACY: And he still has quite a few stories about that game.

GIVENS: Well, the real story for that is, you know, they were up on us and for all intents and purposes, man, they had won the game. And I think he went over and grabbed the microphone from the guy announcing the game. And, you know, he's like, "We're coming home a winner! We're coming home a winner! We 00:45:00beat 'em on their floor!"

I mean, this was what I mean. I mean, the game was over. So -- it's -- so. Yeah. Joe Dean has a little trouble living that down, man. (Both laughing) That was pretty funny.

MACY: Well, as I said, that winning streak continues. You go to the NIT and along the way Robey got hurt.

GIVENS: Yeah. Rick got hurt.

MACY: Hurt his knee. So he didn't play. Was it in the NIT, or did he get hurt before that?

GIVENS: No, he got hurt before the NIT. I mean, he didn't play -- he didn't play some games at the end of the season and didn't play, obviously, in the NIT. Messes his knee up and didn't get to play.

MACY: And Reggie had a real good run, seemed like. And Mike Phillips felt kind of stepped forward at that point.

GIVENS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reggie was a leader. I mean, he was the leader at that time, not just because he was a skilled player. He was senior, and Mike played big all through that stretch, as well. You know, I was steady. I did what I did, you know. But it took a lot. And those two guys really stepped up.

MACY: You knock off UNC-Charlotte.

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: Who had a player who some people may have heard of ---

GIVENS: Cornbread Maxwell.

MACY: What do you recall about the scouting report on him, going in? Or even that game --

GIVENS: Well, all I remember is I had to try to guard him, man. You know, he was -- he was 6' 8" and his arms went from that wall to that wall [gestures]. I mean, he was a really, really good player. And offensively he was very skilled. I mean, he could -- he could score. And they were pretty good, UNC-Charlotte. They were a good team and played well. It was a tough game. Without question, it was a tough ball game. But, you know, we were -- we were feeling good about ourselves at that point. So -- so -- so, we -- we -- we won that one and played well doing it. I mean, there's no question. But Cedric Maxwell, Cedric "Cornbread" Maxwell was a heck of a player, man.

MACY: So now you've had two years of college experience under your belt. You've got a NCAA final game and a NIT championship.

GIVENS: Yep.

MACY: Heading into your junior year, the first year of basketball we played in Rupp Arena. You remember all the excitement leading up to that?

GIVENS: Yeah, it was -- it was -- it was pretty neat getting in a building that big. But along with it came some growing pains. You know, I mean, because shooting the basketball in that building was not as -- as much fun as shooting in Memorial Coliseum just because the background was -- was for shooters in that building. We had to learn all over again how to play, in that building. And I know it sounds like, hey, a gym is a gym is a gym, but actually, it's not.

I mean, we -- we went in there and we didn't get much practice time in there, number one. So, we didn't have a chance to really get used to it. And the times we were in there, we spent a whole lot of time shooting to try to get adjusted to the size of the building. I'm a corner shooter. And, you know, you 00:48:00would shoot and the lights up high were shining right at an angle where it was right in your in your eyes when you shoot from the corner. So, we had to get a lot -- get through a lot of those kind of growing pains, trying to get the adjustments, trying to get the lights raised up or pointing down. I mean, I don't know what they did, but they corrected that.

So there was -- it was not as easy, but we were real excited about it. We -- we just knew it was going to be a fun place to play and we had to warm it up. I mean, we had to get that basketball feeling that you get when you walk in there now, kind of like we had in the Coliseum and all those players who played there before us. And you know what I'm talking about, when you go into a building that just -- you can feel the history when you walk in. Rupp Arena didn't have it at the time. Now, today it does. But it was it was pretty neat getting a new building.

MACY: Seemed like the rims were real tight.

GIVENS: Rims were tight. I mean, if you -- if that ball hit the rim --

MACY: -- at all.

GIVENS: At all. I mean, nobody knew where, how far it was gonna get, bounce off of there. All of those kind of things. I mean, that's -- that's just trying to get used to a building. And fortunately, they made the adjustments over the course of the year, to where at the end of the year was a -- there was some home court advantage. I mean, we had the crowd. So, we always had that advantage.

MACY: You remember the first practice when Coach Hall started sending guys to get a wall?

GIVENS: Yeah. He -- he tried to stay away from getting a wall --

MACY: Which, I guess, first need to explain what --

GIVENS: Getting a wall, is Coach Hall -- if he doesn't like something about how the practice is going, he -- he just blows his whistle and uses a couple of pretty choice words and then he ends up, "Get a wall." So that means touching every step from the bottom, all the way up to the top of the building. So, to the top of Memorial Coliseum was tough with eleven, twelve thousand 00:50:00people however many it held. But the top of Rupp Arena with, at that time, twenty-one, twenty-two thousand people was a little bit different. So, we didn't have to get a whole lot of walls in there. But we did. We do know what the upper arena looks like, what the court looks like from up there.

MACY: The first game in Rupp, you take on Wisconsin. Do you remember who took the first shot? Who scored the first basket, and anything about that?

GIVENS: Well, I don't know who took the first shot, but I think Robey got the first -- first basket. I think Robey did.

MACY: Do you remember your first basket in there?

GIVENS: You know, I don't remember a whole lot about the specifics of the game. I just remember that we -- we won, number one. You know, we opened it up the right way. But, number two: we played well in that building. And, you know, it was a -- it was a good building to play in.

MACY: OK. So, you have freshman of Jay Shider, Tim Stephens, LaVon Williams.

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: -- have joined the team now, and the team goes 26-4. Here you go. Back in the NCAA tournament, head to Philadelphia, take on Princeton, knock them off by fourteen, move to College Park, Maryland. Beat VMI, 93-78. Carter, who I think was a really good player --

GIVENS: Right. Right. Yeah.

MACY: And so it sets up a final east regional against UNC. North Carolina. Dean's still coaching North -- North Carolina. Tell me a little bit what you remember of that game.

GIVENS: Well, you know, North Carolina, again, was a good team. I mean, we were couple of the top teams in the country, no question about that. They had a player by name of Phil Ford, who was a really good little point guard who could handle -- he could get the ball from one end of the floor to the other very quickly. He was good scorer. O'Koren was there. They had a lot of pretty good players. Sweet D -- Walter Davis might have been on that team, as 00:52:00well. But we were still very confident going into that game. I mean, we thought we would win that ballgame. The problem is we got behind early and they were famous for running their four corner offense.

And at the time, there wasn't a shot clock, so Phil Ford could dribble. And, you know, if you couldn't take the ball from him, you were kind of at their mercy. And that's what happened in that ballgame. We got behind, and, frankly, that helped us a lot because we were in real bad foul trouble. Robey was in foul trouble. Mike Phillips might have been in foul trouble. I might have been in foul trouble. But we had some guys in foul trouble. And because they went four corner, slowed the tempo of the game down, it allowed us to keep some guys on the floor. And we actually got back in the game against their four corner offense, but we lost that one. And I blame you for that, frankly. [Points at Macy] (Macy laughs) I blame you for the fact that we didn't win a 00:53:00championship that year, because had you done what you were supposed to do and come to Kentucky immediately, you wouldn't have had to be sitting out that year. So, I blame you for that, that we didn't get to the championship and win that one.

MACY: So, now this is your third year finished in college with that loss, 79-72. How much of a motivation was it to where all of a sudden you had these first two great years, experience-wise, in the Final Four games, NIT championship, and now there is no Final Four.

GIVENS: Yeah, that was -- that was tough. But that game --

MACY: How much did that really motivate you, if --

GIVENS: You know, it really got us going for the next year. I mean, we worked as hard that summer as we had ever worked any summer previously. I mean, we were playing basketball every day. Everything we could do, we did. We came in for our pre-season training and that was the best pre-season training program 00:54:00that we had had.

MACY: Let's talk a little bit about that.

GIVENS: OK.

MACY: Tell me, how'd that work?.

GIVENS: Well, you know, that pre-season, it wasn't very much fun. (Macy laughs) If I could -- and that's putting it mildly. But we did this thing three days a week. We would run from the coliseum to the track, on the other side of campus.

And we would do these series of 220 sprints and we would start out the first day after running from there to there. And we would -- we would start out the first one, about six. The first day and every day we went there, we would add another one to it. And you would have just enough time to run the 220, walk across the track, and by the time -- by the time you got back there it was your turn to run again, and it was extremely tough. I mean, I'm talking about real, 00:55:00real difficult to do. I mean, there were a lot of garbage -- garbage cans positioned around the track and just the right spot because there was some deposits going into that garbage can. Believe me. But we did that and then we went to the weight room.

MACY: Which -- which I guess, too, it needs to be ---(??)--- if you didn't make your time.

GIVENS: Oh, yeah. If you didn't make the time, which for the bigs was thirty-two seconds, which I tried to get with the bigs --

MACY: Me too (laughs).

GIVENS: But he made me run with the guards and the guards were like twenty-eight seconds. You know, if you didn't make those, you had to stay afterwards and run them until you made time on all of them. If it was twenty, you had to make it twenty times, so that wasn't much fun. And then --

MACY: So, then you get to go see Pat Etcheberry.

GIVENS: And then we go up and we start working with Pat Etcheberry, who introduced to all of the guys, including myself, what weightlifting was all about. I mean, I had never lifted weights much. But Pat Etcheberry, 00:56:00he's a little sadistic. (Macy laughs) He-- he got pleasure out of seeing guys hurt pumping those weights, man. I mean, he was a great guy and a fun guy to work with. But if you didn't leave hurting, he felt like he wasn't earning his money. So, he made sure we were all hurting. Now, the result of that is that we got big and strong, and Rick and Mike were like rocks. And James Lee was just a big rock of a person. And the other teams we played against complained a lot. But that training camp, I think, really proved to Coach Hall and to the other coaches that we were -- we were there for business that year.

MACY: And Coach Hall was kind of an innovator with the weightlifting --

GIVENS: Yeah. He was the first one to ever use that. No other coaches. It was always thought that, particularly upper body weights, lifting would 00:57:00-- would mess with your shot. You wouldn't be able to shoot the basketball. And you know, it didn't hurt you. It didn't hurt T.C. I made a couple. So, we found out very quickly that that wasn't true.

MACY: I want to ask you one thing has nothing really to do -- but just as a side story, you remember the -- we were over -- we'd run over to the track. We were doing our warm-up exercises. And Coach Parsons found a little toy soldier in the grass.

GIVENS: I remember a little bit about that, but I guess I don't remember everything about that. Some things you try to forget. (Macy laughs)

MACY: OK. Well, anyway, it's kind of became the ---(??)--- So, the season starts off playing an exhibition game in the Coliseum and knock off the Soviet Union team, which was one of the best in the world.

GIVENS: Best in the world. Yeah.

MACY: By 109-75.

GIVENS: Yep. Yep.

MACY: Did that kind of give you any indication?

GIVENS: Well, it told us we could be really good . It told us we could 00:58:00be good on defense because they were -- they scored a lot of points. I mean, that team was very, very good. So, it proved a lot to us, that we had come a long way. It proved to us that we were focused in on being as good as we can. I still see James Lee dunking over that seven foot four, however tall, Russian guy, however tall he was. I still see that. And that kind of defined our season. I mean, we were ready to work. And I think everybody knew that.

MACY: You know, one other thing about this season away from basketball, halfway through the year, the team also moved into the Joe B. Hall Wildcat Lodge.

GIVENS: Yeah. Uh-Huh. Uh-Huh.

MACY: The original Wildcat Lodge. What were your first thoughts when you toured that and started moving your stuff in? What did you think of that place?

GIVENS: I was like, man, this is -- we are bigtime now. You know, we moved into that Wildcat Lodge and it might not have made that much difference if we had not been in Holmes Hall for three and a half years. Holmes Hall, 00:59:00freshman dorm. And, you know, we had a little room, and we move into that place and everyone had their own room and they were over king sized bed. I mean, there were huge beds and plush as you can have a dormitory, it was.

It had place --a place in there we could eat. I mean, it -- it had everything. I mean, it was it was really a lodge. It was like you're out in Denver or somewhere at a big ski lodge. I mean, it was hardwood everywhere. I mean, it was a beautiful, beautiful place. And we were just beside ourselves to be able to move in there and enjoy it.

MACY: Well, not only were things good off the court, on as well. Winning the first sixteen games, but then a little trip up -- January 23rd. Go down to Alabama.

GIVENS: Alabama, yeah.

MACY: What do you recall about that trip or that --

GIVENS: I remember that game. They had what -- the first -- one of the few times we had ever seen a three-guard offense. I mean, they had T.R. Dunn 01:00:00was on that team and I remember T.R. because I had to guard him, but he was about 6'6" but played the guard and they had some really good players. I think Leon Douglas might have still been on that team, center, a seven-footer, and they were very good and they were always good against Kentucky down there. But we had a lot of trouble with that three-guard offense. I mean, I had to guard guys doing things that I wasn't used to guarding a small forward. So it was a tough game for me. But it was it was a lesson for us. I think we played hard in that game, but yeah, we lost that one and that was a tough one to lose.

MACY: And then February 11th, about half a month later at LSU--

GIVENS: -- at LSU --

MACY: team loses 95-94 in overtime.

GIVENS: Uh-huh, mm hmm.

MACY: I know LSU makes a big deal out of that, five of their starters fouled out.

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They -- they fouled a lot of guys out -- 01:01:00they fouled all of their guys out of that game. I think that game spoke more to us, though, than them, because we didn't play well. You know, we still took it to overtime, but it was -- it was one of those kind of defining games, where we had to, once again, come together as a team, because we didn't play well. And we had to try to figure out: "Guys, where're we going," again. Now, I'm not saying we had a big team meeting and all of that stuff. I'm just saying we -- we kind of got ourselves together again after that -- after that loss.

MACY: And a lot of times it's omitted that we -- we had three of our starters, I think, fouled out that game, as well.

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah. We -- we fouled some guys out as well. So we lost some people, too.

MACY: Now the game that I recall even more so than those two losses was the Mississippi game. And if I say, "revolving door," what's that mean to you?

GIVENS: That means that -- that coach has a pretty quick trigger. You 01:02:00know, if you -- if he even thinks you messed up -- (gestures) get him out.

MACY: And it seemed like he was always -- that Mississippi game after the LSU where just --

GIVENS: Yeah, yeah.

MACY: One misstep and that door was spinning, and somebody else was coming in.

GIVENS: Somebody else was coming in. And -- it's like -- you knew if you messed up. So, if you had your back to the bench and the whistle blew, you just turned around, start running towards the bench, because you knew you were coming out.

MACY: Now -- and I couldn't remember this -- but was that also the place where he had the "go look in the mirror" for some of the players? Had them actually kind of --

GIVENS: That was it. And, the fact is, he --

MACY: Were you one of those?

GIVENS: He told me about five or six times, "Go look in the mirror." (Laughs) I remember that game. And I don't really think I played all that badly. I mean, my numbers were halfway decent. But, man, I think at halftime we went in 01:03:00there at halftime and -- and I usually tried to sit right up -- front row, right in the middle, because I knew I was going to hear it, whether I played well or not. But I -- man, he -- he rode me. I'm thinking the entire halftime. I mean, he was in my face [vehemently pointing several times] "and -- and James, you missed -- missed a rebound, but you shouldn't have missed your shot. He wouldn't have--"

Yeah. I mean, it was one of those kinda -- one of those kind of games and halftime speeches that you want to just kind of get out of there as quickly as possible. Fortunately, we went on to win that ballgame. But it was a tough game.

MACY: Now, was that also the location where the term "Folding Five" --

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah. He -- he -- he -- he used that a few times in the locker room. Yeah. Fabulous Five, Fiddlin' Five and we're the Folding Five. That's -- you got a good memory, man. A lot of that stuff I intentionally try 01:04:00to forget.

MACY: Do you also remember -- this, again, is off the court. There was a real bad blizzard that winter.

GIVENS: Yep. Yep.

MACY: The Tennessee game actually was rescheduled.

GIVENS: It was rescheduled. The only time school was canceled at the University of Kentucky that I know of -- I mean, certainly while I was there. But yeah, I think we had four or five feet of snow. I mean, it was unbelievable that -- that winter and people couldn't get to games, and, you know, games were rescheduled. I mean, it was-- it was -- classes were canceled. I mean, it was just amazing how that winter was.

MACY: Well, let's move on then to the NCAA tournament, first round game back in Knoxville, taking on Florida State, who I think was ranked at the time. But going into the halftime and -- yeah, Florida State was ranked 15th. You're going into halftime and we're down.

GIVENS: Yeah.

MACY: What do you remember of the halftime talk?

GIVENS: Well, it was it was kind of close to that Mississippi game (both laugh). It was along those lines. He challenged some of us in ways that we'd never been challenged before, and especially that year, because we had -- we had a good, good year. And we didn't have many bad practices at all that year. I mean, you know, I mean, we -- we did our thing and sometimes the coaches didn't even have to coach us. We knew enough about what we were supposed to be doing. So, we didn't have many games like the LSU game or the Ole Miss game or the Florida State game. But I do know that I didn't start the second half.

MACY: So, what's going through your mind when coach says you're not starting second half? Here you are, your senior year, could be your last game of your college career.

GIVENS: Yep. Well, I thought, "Am I going to get a message here, or not?" And I got the message. I mean, I hadn't played well. And, you know, one 01:06:00thing about Coach Hall is if you defend, whether you're playing well or not on offense doesn't necessarily dictate how many minutes you're going to get. So -- so I knew I hadn't played quite as well. I don't know why. Some good, sometimes you have a bad game. But fortunately, we had a deep enough team where, you know, you could put other guys in and get it done. I mean, James started that second half and, you know, we had guys who could still play and you did a great job. And we got back in the game. And I think when I came back in, I had a different attitude, a different approach, and played a lot better than I'd played in the first half.

MACY: And it really was -- I mean, he started a different lineup, but it wasn't like that we played the whole half.

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: You guys were back in there pretty quickly.

GIVENS: Yeah, we were in pretty quickly.

MACY: Did you think at any point, "Coach has lost his mind. We're 01:07:00going to lose this game."

GIVENS: Oh, I thought that a lot during my career at Kentucky (laughs), frankly. But, no. But, you know, when you go through a time, a game, a situation like that, you just want to get in there and show him and everybody else that you can play and you can do what needs to be done to win -- win games, win a big game. And fortunately, that's how it worked out.

MACY: Well, then the team moves on to a Dayton -- familiar site from your freshman year, get, well, knocks off Miami and sets up a matchup with number four Michigan State. Guy by the name of Magic Johnson was a freshman.

GIVENS: Yep.

MACY: And fortunately for me, you were assigned to guard him that game.

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I had Magic and he's a great player. There's no question about that. And they played us as well as anybody had played us all year. I mean, they were a tough match-up, as you can imagine. But fortunately, we had a guy by the name of Kyle Macy who can make free throws. And 01:08:00when they got in a situation where they had to foul someone and we needed someone to make a shot, not just free throws, but make a big shot, you had the big game and kind of helped us to get through that. But that was one of the real neat things about our March, through the tournament that year. It seemed like every game, as you know, somebody different stepped up. I remember that Miami of Ohio game you just mentioned. Mike Phillips stepped up and played really well right outside of his -- his area where he grew up. You know, we had different guys. You played really well in that Michigan State game and we just kind of had guys to get it done along the way. A different guy would step up and make the plays.

MACY: So, then we moved to St. Louis, the Checkerdome, for the Final Four and take on Arkansas. Eddie Sutton coached the team that had the triplets.

GIVENS: Yep. Yep.

MACY: Do you remember--

GIVENS: -- Moncrief, Delph, and Brewer.

MACY: Right.

GIVENS: Another one of those three-guard offenses that we hadn't had a whole lot of success against that year. Quick guys, guys who could score, guys who could run all day long. You knew it was gonna be a -- just a "Who's going to last this one out?" I mean, they were they were a very, very good basketball team and played well. The thing I think that helped us in that game is their bigs, their inside two, got in real bad foul trouble. I mean, they got in -- Mike played well. Rick was going to the hole. So -- so -- so they got in foul trouble and they had to play their bigs in foul trouble and they had to bring some other folks in who weren't quite as good. So--

MACY: Right.

GIVENS: And we took advantage of that. But it was still a very close game.

MACY: Very close. In fact, there was a play late where we got a run out over the top.

GIVENS: Mm hmm.

MACY: You remember that play?

GIVENS: Yeah, we used to call that out of bounds play "Rick." Because 01:10:00we're under the other team's basket and we've got to go the length of the court. We know they have pressure up floor -- up the floor because they're trying to force the turnover so they can score quickly. And we called "Rick," which is -- which means Robey. We're both lined up at the free throw line. Robey comes over and sets the screen and the team thinks I'm coming back to the ball. But in reality, I'm just going over the screen and I'm slipping down the floor. And you throw the pass long and you nailed me right in stride. Now, a lot of people say I traveled on that.

MACY: I was gonna ask you about that (laughs).

GIVENS: Yeah. You know, and I've watched that replay at least once. And I know I did not travel, but a lot of people said I travel, but it's not a violation if the referee doesn't call it. That's the way I look at it. (Macy laughs) But -- but the play worked perfectly, and that was the play that iced the game for us and got us over the hump in that game.

MACY: So then that sets up for your second final game in your career, 01:11:00taking on Duke in the finals in the Checkerdome.

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: Do you remember they had a press -- we had this late game on the semifinals, but there was early press conference the next morning. You remember that whole setting and the atmosphere?

GIVENS: I don't remember that quite as much.

MACY: Well, to me, I mean, because the story always was of seriousness of Kentucky.

GIVENS: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

MACY: To me, that was always why. Because we'd been up late with the semifinal game.

GIVENS: Right. Right.

MACY: But even that semifinal game, kind of -- if you would, to address the focus of this team. How you said, even from day one. Afterwards, Coach Hall said, "Well, let's go out and goof off or relax a little bit."

GIVENS: Yeah. We -- we I think if you go back to that Ole Miss game, the Miss -- we talked about a little while ago, all of our mindsets kind of changed after that. Now, we were focused all year long. And unfortunately, Coach 01:12:00Hall took all the blame for that, that we were so focused, when, in reality, that focus came from the players. I mean, I think, and I think you think you'll agree with me, but that focus was generated by -- by the guys and not so much the coaching staff. Now, they took the hit and Coach Hall didn't mind all of that attention coming to him because it took -- it took the pressure off of us.

But we -- we knew we were good enough to win a championship and we didn't want anything less than that. So, yeah, we -- we were very focused. We had been up late the night before. Coach Hall wanted us to go out and relax and have a good time. And, you know. But we said, "No, Coach, we're going to go back and we want to watch the video if we can get a video of the game. We'd like to watch that instead of going out." But that just shows you kind of the focus we had, and we were on a mission. I mean, there's no question about it. Right from 01:13:00the beginning we were on a mission and we had gotten that far. We didn't want to walk away a loser in that championship game.

MACY: So, the night before the final game. You room with James Lee on the --

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah.

MACY: What kind of discussion do you guys have? I mean, both of you seniors, all you've been through together, best friends growing up. Did you have any inclination you were gonna have that kind of game that you had?

GIVENS: No, I didn't. And that was a -- that championship kind of fell between Easter, on Easter Sunday. You know, you had Saturday night, Easter Sunday. And James and I had gone to church with some of my family who lived there in St. Louis. So, we had had a just a normal day for us.

But, you know, as -- as the evening goes on and as it gets closer to game time, you can't do anything but think about the game. You try your best all day not to even think about it. But, yeah, you know, we -- you can't sleep, so 01:14:00you have to lay there and talk. And -- and James, he called me "Give." He said, "Give, can you believe, man, we're here again?" I said, "James, I cannot believe it, man." And he said, "Give, what we gonna do, man, what we're going to do?" And I said, "Big James, I think we can do only one thing. And that is win the game, man." He said, "I knew you will say that."

You know, we had that kind of conversation, tried to keep it light. But, you know, by that time of the year, by that stage of the season and you know what I'm talking about, there's not a whole lot of preparation you can do. There's not -- there are no changes you can make that's gonna make a difference. The only thing you want going into that game is to be confident that the other team, which was Duke, has to worry more about us than we have to worry about them. And that's -- and that's how I felt going into that game. I mean, we didn't have to make any changes because we had faced everything. We had been there. The seniors on that team knew what to expect. It was all new for them and they 01:15:00were doing everything, having a good time. But we wanted to win that one. So, the game itself was -- was just, hey, man, let's toss it up and go play.

MACY: How much influence did that have? Having been there before?

GIVENS: Oh, it made a difference because when we were in San Diego, I mean, we did everything. I mean, we saw everything there was to see. I mean, we went to the beach. We -- I mean, we did everything that you can do in a place as gorgeous as San Diego. So -- so, we did have fun out there and we did try to make the most of the trip. But -- but we didn't want to do that again. I mean, we knew what that was like. I mean, we didn't -- not that St. Louis, as San Diego with the beach and everything, but it just wasn't the same approach for us that it was my freshman year.

MACY: Well, the game gets going and what turns into being one of the 01:16:00top games ever played in a Final Four final game. You end up with forty-one, Kentucky beats Duke. But during the course of the game, what's -- what's -- did everything just slow down? You hear about, you know, you're in the groove, whatever. Or what's going through your mind? Is that game -- you scored the last nineteen points of the first half.

GIVENS: You know, the thing that -- the thing that went through my mind more than anything is: let's get this thing over with. I mean, during the course of the game -- and you know, you'll know what I'm talking about -- I mean, you're just playing. You're just doing what you do and trying your best to do it well. And I, frankly, had no clue how many points I had. I mean, I knew I was having a good game, but, you know, I thought thirty points would have been a great night. If I'd ended up with thirty, which I thought was about where I was. But the only -- I mean, the weird thing about it, and it's only weird afterwards, 01:17:00when it happened, it was -- it was -- it was -- it happened too quick to really think about it. But, you know, Coach Hall had taken us out of the game to allow some of the other guys to play. We had a fairly good lead on Duke, and they made a last run. And he had to put all of us back in the game. And as we were walking out, Coach Hall said, "Nobody shoot but Jack. If we shoot, I want Jack shooting." And I'd never heard that before from Coach (both laugh). You know, not that he ever told me not to shoot, but, you know, we had a lot of guys who could play on that team. I mean, but I don't know why. I mean, it just didn't quite register. And I thought, "Wow, I wonder what --" you know.

But after the game, I realized I had forty-one and Walton had forty-four. And if I get fouled or whatever, make a bucket, I'm that much closer. But I didn't know it at the time. You know , I wish I had known, sometimes I do, how 01:18:00many points I'd had. But I'm thinking, "Well if I know I have that many," do I say, "Well, I've got enough," then let some of the other guys score? Do I say, "Well, I've got forty-one, I'm going to take every shot." And you might think I took every shot anyway. I don't know. But -- (both laugh)

MACY: --It was working.

GIVENS: It was working. No, I'm just kidding. But you know, I'm glad, in the long run, I'm glad I didn't know. But I wish I had known when Coach Hall said, "Jack, I want you shooting the ball," what that meant exactly. Because who knows? It might have ended up with a couple more points.

MACY: Well, and, like you said, if you hadn't come out when we had the big twenty point lead, whatever.

GIVENS: Yeah. Yeah.

MACY: I mean -- it's where you could have scored. During the course of the game they never really made an adjustment in their zone defense.

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: They ---??--- middle with the ball. You'd either score, or you give 'em a fake and go by 'em, or miss and get a rebound, put it back.

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: Did you ever think, "Surely they're gonna make an adjustment here"?

GIVENS: Well, I wondered why they -- they weren't changing anything. 01:19:00I mean, you know, I mean, it was open all night and we didn't do anything. I mean, it's not like we were geniuses or anything. I mean, it was just the open spot on the floor. And it just so happened that it was my job to fill those open spots and it was in my range and where I like to get most of my shots. I mean, we didn't do anything really different or we didn't change anything. They didn't make any changes, so we didn't make any changes. But yeah, I was real shocked that they didn't.

And I saw Bill Foster a couple of times after that and he said, "Are you finally gonna say thanks to me for not making a change and not taking the ball out of your hands?" I said, "Coach, I said thanks to you all the time it was going on." (Macy laughs) You know, but --but -- yeah, it was it was kind of interesting that the changes weren't made, but I knew why. Because we had Rick and Mike and James on the front line. We had you and T.C. and Jay who could make make jump shots and you guys wouldn't miss. So, they had to leave something 01:20:00open and that's what they decided to do, so. So I'm glad they didn't make the changes, that's for sure. And you guys got me the ball. I mean, you know, what's the use of being open if you're not getting the ball? So, all of that came into play.

MACY: I remember you banked one in from deep in the corner.

GIVENS: Yep.

MACY: When that left your hand, did you think --

GIVENS: I thought, "Oh, man, that's going to hit the side of the backboard and Coach Hall gonna --" [gestures] "Get him outta there!" You know, I thought, "Man, there's no way that shot's gonna go." And if I had been a right-handed shooter, I -- it would have been square on the side of the backboard and probably bounced out of bounds. But because I'm lefty, in that corner, I was able to get just enough around the backboard. It kind of glanced off the side and went in. But -- but, you know, it was that kind of night. The basket was large, there's no question, and I was shooting them in that night. So that's -- that's a good thing.

MACY: But the team really dominated for the season. They shot 54.1 percent from the field and 75.9 as a team from the free throw line. But what -- 01:21:00what do you think was so special about that '78 championship team?

GIVENS: Well, I -- I think the main thing is -- and is -- that we had a nucleus, everything, you know, we had a nucleus of guys, kind of like my freshman year. They had six seniors on that team, guys who had been through the battle, guys who were leaders and -- and who were good guys. I think that's the main thing. We had a nucleus.

I think, but even beyond that, every guy on that team accepted his role. And that's -- and that's tough when you have a lot of talent. Because we had Fred Cowan, LaVon and you know, Jay and Tim, Tim and some of the guys who could really score and were really good players, who probably deserved more minutes and would have gotten more minutes at another school, but -- but they 01:22:00accepted their role. We had you [gestures], who was the best I've ever played with, that if you get open, you're going to get the ball. If you get on the break, you're going to get the ball. And you had a knack for knowing where a guy likes to catch it to make it easier for him to score. We had T.C. who could shoot it as sweet as any, I mean, he was he was one of those guys. And he's, for a lot of people, he's the last player on the team on that starting five. Now, "You had Robey and Phillips.

And was James Lee a starter? No. Macy and Truman Clay. Oh, yeah. T.C.," I mean, he was that kind of player, but you knew you couldn't win without T.C. because he was that threat from the outside that you need. So, we had good guys on that team. But I think the thing that really made the difference -- that we were committed to stopping teams from scoring. Defense was, regardless of 01:23:00how we shot the ball and we shot it well, we defended every night. And that's what was the big difference.

MACY: You know, that was a year before the media outbreak with the ESPNs and the likes, all the coverage coming on. Do you feel like that team, to this day even, is kind of overlooked, as far as maybe one of the best teams to play on?

GIVENS: Yeah, I think so. I mean, we were pre-Twitter and pre-Facebook and pre-all of these other ESPNs. And, you know, so the only way -- team -- people knew about us is if we played in a tournament or by the print media, you know. So -- so I don't think folks really understood how good that team was, how many truly talented players we had on that ballclub. But that's OK.

I mean, I think when you have a place in the record books and you've got NCAA championship, 1978 NCAA championship beside your name, I think people understand just by that, that they must have been a pretty good team. But, you know, we had the first twin tower with Rick and Mike playing all those years together. I mean, we had a lot of pretty, pretty good pieces on that team that made us a special ballclub.

MACY: How would you describe Coach Hall?

GIVENS: Well, I think when it comes to being overlooked talent, I think Coach Hall is right at the top of the heap when it comes to a guy who was really, really good at what he did being overlooked simply because he followed a legend. I think if you look at legends coaching-wise, quote unquote [gestures air quotes] legendary coaches, I think you'll be hard pressed to find one 01:25:00who was as successful, following that legendary coach, as Coach Hall was. So, I -- I think Coach Hall was a much better coach than he ever got credit for. Fortunately, he finally got in the Hall of Fame. It took way too long. But -- but I -- and I didn't love playing for Coach Hall, but I think Coach Hall didn't want us to love playing for him. That was his way of coaching. And he did a good job of getting the most out of each one of us, whether we liked the method or not. He was very good at that.

MACY: And his assistants were --uh-- Dick Parsons and Leonard Hamilton.

GIVENS: Yep. Yep, Dickie Parsons was -- he was just a great, great, great guy who always, regardless of the situation, had the right thing to say at the right time. Whether Coach Hall was nailing us about something and getting 01:26:00on our case and making it tough, he might come with: "And if you win this game, I'll buy you an extra milkshake afterwards." You know, something that just breaks all the pressure, that gives you an opportunity to smile at a time when that's the last thing on your mind.

Leonard Hamilton was the best recruiter ever, and still is, coaching at Florida State. I mean, he could go and get players and convince them to come to play at the University of Kentucky. He was a friend to us, to the players. And once again, particularly at a time if we were struggling, if we were getting -- having a hard time with Coach Hall, he would come to us. And he was very good one on one. I mean, he'd come and take us to the side or he'd get us after practice and, "Come on, walk to the car with me," you know, and he -- by the time you left the building, got to the car, you felt better about 01:27:00everything. So, we had two very, very, very talented assistant coaches who knew their role, as well, and performed it very, very well.

MACY: So, when you graduate, then you get drafted by the Atlanta Hawks and play three years with the Hawks.

GIVENS: Right.

MACY: How was that NBA experience for you?

GIVENS: I -- I was not an NBA kind of guy, unfortunately. I don't know. It's interesting, because as well as I played in college -- in college, it -- I didn't have the confidence when I went to the NBA that I belonged there, that I was good enough to be there. And -- and that was -- and that's very difficult to admit, because I always knew that I was a pretty decent player. I never thought I was a great player . I did some things well. And that's not the way 01:28:00to go into the NBA. I mean, if you're going into the NBA, you have to think you're the best every day and you're better than anybody they can put on the floor. I mean, that's the mentality you have to have. Now I learned that a lot later through broadcasting games and trying to figure out why Michael Jordan is so much better than everybody else. And, you know, but you have to be confident. You have to have a confidence about you that is unshakable, and I just didn't have that. And it's unfortunate, because I think I probably could have been a pretty decent player in the NBA if I realized and -- and convinced myself that I belonged, you know. So, I wasn't an NBA guy. My NBA career was fun while it lasted, but I didn't miss it after was over . Of course, at that time, 01:29:00we weren't making the money these guys are making now, I mean, you know. That would've made a difference. Probably, you know, I would have tried to stay around a little bit longer, wouldn't had to, you know, been drafted, what, 14th, 15th, 16th, wherever I was drafted. I mean, that might've been enough money to live on for a while if they're making what they're making now. But -- but I wasn't really an NBA kind of guy.

MACY: But you kind of found your niche with that -- you mentioned the broadcasting, and did the Magic for 15 years?

GIVENS: Yeah, yep. Yep. I enjoyed broadcasting. Enjoyed it a lot. No question about it. I started broadcasting high school basketball games on VLK. I mean, on VLK here in town. Ralph Hacker and I, and Rick Shaw, we were broadcasting games going around. Dick Gabriel and I started doing college games at Transy. From there we kind of grew to some regional games. And I mean, I started doing games for Jefferson Pilot and Sunshine Network. And a lot of these others, 01:30:00and ESPN came, and so I just kept growing with the broadcasting and then worked with the Magic in Orlando for 15 seasons and worked with TNT in Atlanta doing NBA games on TV. So, I felt that I was pretty decent broadcasting basketball games. I enjoyed it very much, my time broadcasting games, it was fun. It was a way to stay close to the game. I got a great seat every night. You know, all of those kind of things were -- were really, really neat.

MACY: So, tell me, what are you doing now?

GIVENS: Well, now I work with a company we're called -- it's called the Bowlin Group, B-o-w-l-i-n, Bowlin Group. We are subcontractors. Electrical subcontractors in telecom, some subcontractors for, you know, all the utilities around the state and five or six, seven other states. We work with all the cell phone companies, all the cable TV networks. And we're very big in the 01:31:00in the fiber world, fiber optics. And I'm Vice President of Business Development for Bowlin Group. I've been working there for about five years -- a little over five years now -- and enjoying my time there. And going into the business, in that business, I knew this much about it [indicates zero with hand], a big zero about it, and just happened to go to work for a couple of really good guys, Blevins Bowlin and Kerry Bowlin. And they said, "Hey, that's not rocket science, and we have people who are the experts. Just help us to get business." And that's what I do.

MACY: Which I guess brings up the next -- how much you having played basketball at UK, has that opened doors for the rest of your life?

GIVENS: Oh, it definitely opens a lot of doors. It gets you an audience, at least. It gets you in. Now, once you get in, it's like now what are you going to do with this opportunity? But having played at the University of Kentucky, and I say particularly working around the state, but, you know Big Blue Nation , I mean, you know, and in my -- my job, I speak to a lot of engineers 01:32:00and the University of Kentucky has a great, great engineering program. So, a lot of the people I need to get to, to try to get new business just happen to be University of Kentucky grads or basketball fans. And I call and try to set a meeting and it does help a lot, having spent time here at the University of Kentucky and having a successful career.

GIVENS: And I guess finally, unless ---(??)--- has got some other -- what's it mean to you to have your jersey hang up?

GIVENS: Oh, it's real special. You know, I take my grandkids now, my Zariah, my girl is five -- is 6 and Jalen, my boy is 4. And I like to take them to games at at Rupp Arena. And first time we went in there, I see -- I said, particularly to the older one, because she's in school in first grade and she reads and she gets off, gets off on that, really wanting you know she can read. And I 01:33:00said, "Look at those jerseys, those big shirts up there, shirt-looking things. Look up there and see if you see anything that's familiar."

"Ah! Givens! That's our name." I said, "Yeah, honey, you know who that is?" She said, "That's you, because you played for the Wildcats," you know. And I say, "Yes," you know. So, that kind of stuff is really neat. But you look up there, your number is up there, you see some of the names represented up there. And to be up there with those numbers, I mean, with those names, it's just really, really a special feeling. I mean, there are certain things that really mean a lot, accolades you get. Some, after a while, most of them kind of go away and they don't carry the same weight as they once did. But seeing your name up in the rafters and number twenty-one, it's really, really special. It speaks to our generation, but it also speaks to those young guys who are out 01:34:00there playing basketball now who look up there every now and then they see the banners and they see the names and they don't know who we are. They don't know Kyle Macy. They don't know Jack Givens. They don't know Dan Issel. So -- but they do know that they have their jerseys up there, so they are very special. So that's one of the things that still I carry with high regard, being -- having my number retired up there, my jersey and being in the rafters. That's still very special.

MACY: Great. Great. You got anything else? You got anything you want to add, Jack, that I left out?

GIVENS: No, (waves bottle of water) shoo -- you covered everything.